Speaker 1: You're listening to the best of The Money Show.
Speaker 2: The Money Show.
Speaker 3: Welcome to the Best Bits of the Money Show, a
Speaker 3: digest of some of the most important insights, thoughts, and
Speaker 3: interviews from the show this week. If you'd like to
Speaker 3: hear more, you may well have someone in your family
Speaker 3: who you believe needs to hear a little bit more
Speaker 3: about it. Go to your podcast app, go to our
Speaker 3: website and search for The Money Show. Really is worth
Speaker 3: sharing some of the content with people. Everybody needs to
Speaker 3: know a little bit more about money to start. Some
Speaker 3: of the most important stories we thought from this week,
Speaker 3: and the Jase crossing really a historic milestone. The all
Speaker 3: share going past one hundred thousand points for the first
Speaker 3: time in its history. That's one hundred and thirty seven years.
Speaker 3: It started with an index of around one hundred points,
Speaker 3: so you can just see how much has changed over
Speaker 3: the years. Now past one hundred thousand points. Canel Plus
Speaker 3: getting approval from the Competition Tribunal for it to deal
Speaker 3: with multi choice. It's worth than only fifty three billion rand.
Speaker 3: What we're really going to see is canil Plus taking
Speaker 3: over at DStv, and I think we'll start to see
Speaker 3: some changes on your screen soon and Parliament finally, I
Speaker 3: think a big sigh of relief for many people, passing
Speaker 3: the last major piece of budget legislation, the two biggest
Speaker 3: parties in the coalition, the DA and the ANC, finally
Speaker 3: agreeing after all of the fighting and eye gouging and
Speaker 3: nonsense of the last couple of months. Well, tonight we
Speaker 3: bring you a mixture of stories from the world of
Speaker 3: money from the week that has been your shape shifter
Speaker 3: this week was Kurt Akerman, the CEO of the South
Speaker 3: African Urban Food and Farming Trust and co founder of
Speaker 3: the Ernzerch City Farm and Market. He's been very involved
Speaker 3: in urban food systems, looking at health and education and
Speaker 3: human rights. Actually comes from a background in PR leading
Speaker 3: digital transformation and also looks at climate and sustainability.
Speaker 4: Kurt Akerman I grew up in one of these American
Speaker 4: college towns, so only there are no postgraduate degrees, and
Speaker 4: a place called Oberlin in Ohio, so about kilometers west
Speaker 4: of the city of Cleveland and Ohio.
Speaker 5: And my father was a professor there and my mother
Speaker 5: was a nurse, and I had a wonderful upbringing, quite
Speaker 5: a progressive, isolated little little town. And what now would
Speaker 5: be considered surrounded by trump Land, but had a great diverse,
Speaker 5: interesting childhood and then went off to university in Chicago,
Speaker 5: went off to the big city.
Speaker 3: You ended up, so you studied business. You ended up
Speaker 3: working in PR at Chandwick. They're a big firm. They
Speaker 3: actually have a bronze here too. I mean it's a
Speaker 3: massive firm that does PR. So you're doing campaigns for them.
Speaker 5: I had a slightly different journey than your your pre
Speaker 5: see outlined. So I was actually working in Saint Louis, Missouri,
Speaker 5: and I was recruited by Shandwick to head up what
Speaker 5: they could then called the Interactive division. So I had
Speaker 5: grown up with the my father being a professor of science.
Speaker 5: I had my first email account when I was seven
Speaker 5: or eight years old, which would have been in the
Speaker 5: late nineteen seventies. And so when the web came along
Speaker 5: and became a like a commercial interest, and I was
Speaker 5: actually headhunted into this firm to help kind of guide
Speaker 5: the interactive division as they called it. So I was
Speaker 5: not trained in PR. I understood the technology and the
Speaker 5: medium and was kind of an internal consultant and coordinating
Speaker 5: ten offices across the Americas in how to advise their
Speaker 5: big corporate clients on using this this Internet thing. So
Speaker 5: that that was the journey. So I was deep in
Speaker 5: the belly of the beast without really understanding a lot
Speaker 5: of what was going on. But it was an incredible experience. Yea.
Speaker 5: At the time, Shandwick had one hundred and fifty four
Speaker 5: offices around the world and had these massive global clients
Speaker 5: like MasterCard and you remember a compact Computer and some
Speaker 5: of the other So it was quite a time, no.
Speaker 3: I can imagine. And the world was also changing in
Speaker 3: such an interesting way, and you were kind of in
Speaker 3: the US that was driving some of that change. So Okay,
Speaker 3: somewhere along the way at Kurt, you had a major
Speaker 3: shift and focus. Ok you went from that to food.
Speaker 3: You had to help me through that, Yeah.
Speaker 1: All right.
Speaker 5: So the journey to South Africa was really driven by
Speaker 5: my wife's career. So she's a professor. She's a pale anthropologist.
Speaker 5: She's a professor at the University of Cape Town and
Speaker 5: had done her PhD research in the skeletal and fossil
Speaker 5: collections at bits and in East Africa and elsewhere in
Speaker 5: the world. And when the University of Cape Town was
Speaker 5: looking for someone to lecture in human Evolution. They opened
Speaker 5: it up to international candidates and she was offered the position.
Speaker 5: And so in two thousand we picked up and moved
Speaker 5: to Cape Town and have happily been here ever since.
Speaker 1: And you, that was the move.
Speaker 5: And I found myself commuting back and forth to the States,
Speaker 5: which was terrible, flying across the Atlantic and never living
Speaker 5: where I was. And in two thousand and one kind
Speaker 5: of severed that connection and had to reinvent my work
Speaker 5: context in South Africa, which wasn't yet in food. There
Speaker 5: was still another tenure journey before I found myself in food.
Speaker 3: Okay, so all right, if we can sort of get
Speaker 3: to how you ended up in food, because that's what
Speaker 3: you that's your big focus now and you've spent a
Speaker 3: lot of time on and something that I think you
Speaker 3: probably have some quite strong feelings on that I wanted
Speaker 3: to explore. So, I mean, what happened? Were you walking
Speaker 3: down the road? Was there an epiphany? Did you get
Speaker 3: hit on the head? Were you going from Damascus somewhere?
Speaker 5: My wife and I had a child, and that was
Speaker 5: really the start of it. So we had been fortunate
Speaker 5: to bring a few dollars over in two thousand and
Speaker 5: we bought a house in anis and really thinking that
Speaker 5: we would have children. And as things go, you know,
Speaker 5: one changes one's mind, and we decided we would and
Speaker 5: started looking at our community quite differently, and we saw
Speaker 5: our neighbors with you know, kids on the street, but
Speaker 5: they don't play together, they don't go to the same schools.
Speaker 5: When kids go to the park, certainly in Euroniusic and
Speaker 5: I think many other more affluent communities they've got a nanny.
Speaker 5: Kids don't find themselves in play. People are are fearful.
Speaker 5: There are walls and wires and spikes, and we were
Speaker 5: just anxious to raise a child in this environment. And
Speaker 5: the opportunity came along to help create a community food garden,
Speaker 5: and it was a chance to really try to find
Speaker 5: the village in the city, you know, other like minded
Speaker 5: people who wanted a way to connect but really just
Speaker 5: couldn't find it. And so it was really a bit
Speaker 5: of a of a I don't know, not quite utopian,
Speaker 5: but like a wish full dream to get involved in something,
Speaker 5: and it wound up literally changing my life. I got
Speaker 5: involved in starting the Iron Music City Farm with some
Speaker 5: other volunteers and it just provided such a deep insight
Speaker 5: into community and the food system, and it clicked with
Speaker 5: the skills of experience and networks that I had and
Speaker 5: what the opportunities were to make a difference, you know,
Speaker 5: in the city and in the world. And after a
Speaker 5: couple of years that became my life's work.
Speaker 3: They running as a farmer's market designed to standards of
Speaker 3: the market sort of exploded. It started, I mean, very
Speaker 3: small and like, I don't know, the next minute it
Speaker 3: was this big thing.
Speaker 5: It felt like that to us too. So we started
Speaker 5: the farm in September of twenty twelve, and the market
Speaker 5: started really without a whole lot of planning, driven by
Speaker 5: volunteers who were interested in kind of harvesting and good
Speaker 5: food and organic produce and so on. Before we had
Speaker 5: a harvest, and so some of the other volunteers and
Speaker 5: supporters had access to some organic produce and they would
Speaker 5: donate it and we would sell it literally on the
Speaker 5: back of a couple of hay bales to raise a
Speaker 5: bit of cash for this project. And then someone brought,
Speaker 5: you know, a coffee machine, and someone brought some snacks,
Speaker 5: and then we needed a bit of a tent to
Speaker 5: cover that because you know, you've got sun and wind
Speaker 5: and other things. And before we knew it, we had,
Speaker 5: you know, eight or ten tables and after a year
Speaker 5: we had about twelve hundred people on a Saturday coming.
Speaker 4: You couldn't park.
Speaker 5: Anywhere in the area, and we were in conflict with
Speaker 5: the city over heritage policy because it was in the
Speaker 5: park that was a provincial heritage site. And yeah, it
Speaker 5: just took off. It became the the you know, the
Speaker 5: tail wagon, the dog or whatever the metaphor is, and
Speaker 5: went crazy. We actually got kicked out of the park.
Speaker 5: We had to shut it down. We wound up in
Speaker 5: the premier's lawn at Lunhoff Helenzilla was lobbied by fans
Speaker 5: of the market and we didn't miss a market. And
Speaker 5: once the farm and the market split then this was
Speaker 5: in November twenty fourteen, it really put us on two
Speaker 5: different trajectories and into different areas of the food system.
Speaker 5: So the market landed at the Vina Waterfront in June
Speaker 5: of twenty fifteen, and that was fantastic on a three
Speaker 5: thousand square meter site. But it grew and grew and
Speaker 5: became really about kind of retail and consumer awareness and
Speaker 5: working with local farms and strengthening them, and it was
Speaker 5: in an area that those of us who were on
Speaker 5: the farming and food gardening side really weren't fully at
Speaker 5: home in and it needed to become its own thing.
Speaker 5: It needed to fly, and so at the end of
Speaker 5: twenty seventeen we spun it out and sold it off
Speaker 5: and it has run independently ever since. But we have
Speaker 5: very close relationships and the market is really important kind
Speaker 5: of calling card and you know, just kind of signature
Speaker 5: place where one can go to learn about parts of
Speaker 5: the food system. But it really does speak to the
Speaker 5: more affluent consumers and kind of that part of Cape
Speaker 5: Town that is, you know, able to enjoy a farmer's
Speaker 5: market like that.
Speaker 3: That was Kurt Ikman talking about his journey through urban
Speaker 3: food systems, education, health and human rights started out, of course,
Speaker 3: in a very very different place.
Speaker 1: The Best of the Money Show from this.
Speaker 3: Week earlier this week on How I Make My Money
Speaker 3: and Balie and Clapple, known as a housekeeper and cleaning
Speaker 3: influencer Practical Cleaning Tips, also runs her own business. Someone
Speaker 3: very involved in this industry, and she's really turned what became,
Speaker 3: I suppose a passion into quite an important career for
Speaker 3: her and her family.
Speaker 6: I prefer to be called a housekeeper. I prefer to
Speaker 6: be called a housekeeper. Actually that's what I love.
Speaker 3: Well, good evening, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 3: And in case you're wondering how she feels about her work,
Speaker 3: here has a little taste of some of what in
Speaker 3: Bali's done over the years.
Speaker 7: The house skill fa d I I of keeping all
Speaker 7: your trusses nice and key.
Speaker 6: One cup of.
Speaker 7: One cup of vinegar kills your class coffee table like
Speaker 7: it's running out of fashion. Also kills your TV. You
Speaker 7: called your laptop spring a nice how amazing? Do note
Speaker 7: that you do not do the love and shape. However,
Speaker 7: do the s pat in shape and the plasses will
Speaker 7: be nice and keep las minds.
Speaker 6: The house skill.
Speaker 3: In Bali you pretty much like that in person. I've
Speaker 3: made the point that most of us run away from dirt.
Speaker 3: You run towards it, and I love it. What do
Speaker 3: you see that we don't I see.
Speaker 6: I see it clean space, A fresh mind. When I
Speaker 6: see I kind of even explain it the way I
Speaker 6: love it. I see a fresh mind. When your space,
Speaker 6: or your place or your home is clean, your mind
Speaker 6: is always sharp. Actually, a clean house is a happy home.
Speaker 6: A Tattlers house is a peaceful home.
Speaker 3: You don't think, I mean some people say, no, I've
Speaker 3: got young children and dogs and things, and I quite
Speaker 3: like the mess. You don't like that at all?
Speaker 6: No, I don't. No, I don't.
Speaker 2: So.
Speaker 3: I mean I was thinking a little bit about what
Speaker 3: could make it so, because it's rewarding for you, right, yes,
Speaker 3: And I was thinking, like often you can be at
Speaker 3: work as part of a team and you don't know
Speaker 3: what your contribution is. You can spend a lot of
Speaker 3: time and energy with your children. You don't know if
Speaker 3: that's going to work out. But when you clean, you
Speaker 3: can see the results. The result is that part of it,
Speaker 3: do you think?
Speaker 6: Yes, you can see the results. And you know what's
Speaker 6: satisfying is when you get to a room, the walls
Speaker 6: are deity. When you finished there, they are so nice
Speaker 6: and than there is satisfying when the laundry is dirty,
Speaker 6: when you finished, it smells fresh. That is so satisfying. Shoes,
Speaker 6: especially sneakers. I can go on and on, because a
Speaker 6: clean house is a happy home.
Speaker 3: How did it start for you? I mean, how did
Speaker 3: you end up doing this?
Speaker 6: I end up doing this because it started when I
Speaker 6: was retrained. Actually I was working at a furnisher shop.
Speaker 6: Then I was retrained shop. I seart at home. About
Speaker 6: three weeks my sister in law called me to say
Speaker 6: that in Bali, I've made arrangement with another lady. She
Speaker 6: did not come. I'm still waiting at the apartment station.
Speaker 6: I said, okay, hold on, I called, I called, I called,
Speaker 6: I called everyone a church all around, and one lady
Speaker 6: said I'm going to do it. I said, Mama, you
Speaker 6: know that was twenty fifteen. You know that you're going
Speaker 6: to work. They sleep in and doing that. She said,
Speaker 6: I'm going to do it. Even today, she's still working
Speaker 6: there after them, three weeks or so, everyone was calling
Speaker 6: me now, Bali, can I have a cleaning lady, Bali,
Speaker 6: can you come and clean for me? And my neighbor
Speaker 6: said I need to clean for hey. So she said okay.
Speaker 6: Everyone was now calling me. I said, okay, so this
Speaker 6: is Bali Shang and Bally this, and yet I know
Speaker 6: how to clean. I know the diis. So it was
Speaker 6: just a combination.
Speaker 3: How did you find people to actually fill the jobs?
Speaker 3: I mean, was it church networks? Was it something else?
Speaker 6: It was before it was church networks, Before it was
Speaker 6: church networks. Now there are people that are applying to
Speaker 6: be housekeepers. Before it was simply church networks, and then
Speaker 6: now every CV you get CV, you get applications.
Speaker 3: M I mean, are there some people who you don't pass,
Speaker 3: who you don't you don't accept.
Speaker 6: Yes, not everyone can be a housekeeper. Not everyone can be.
Speaker 3: So when you you, I mean you're cleaning, you're running
Speaker 3: a business, You're doing some of the cleaning yourself. You
Speaker 3: film yourself doing this. Are you still sort of getting
Speaker 3: a sense of satisfaction when you go to bed every night,
Speaker 3: not just because of the work, because of the work
Speaker 3: of getting other people work, but because of actually the
Speaker 3: cleaning that you're doing yourself.
Speaker 6: Every time. I get satisfied each and every time, especially
Speaker 6: when I come to train. When I go to train housekeepers,
Speaker 6: I get so satisfied to think that that housekeeper has
Speaker 6: saved her job. She is going to be a proper housekeeper,
Speaker 6: not a perfect one, but getting to detail one. I
Speaker 6: feel happy.
Speaker 3: What kind of training do you do?
Speaker 6: What does it take train housekeepers? I train someone that
Speaker 6: wants to become a cleaning expect someone that loves to clean,
Speaker 6: someone that is working as a housekeeper currently, It actually
Speaker 6: takes for them to know what to do, what to use,
Speaker 6: how to use it so that you save time.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's saving time is a big thing you
Speaker 3: can You can get a lot done if you know
Speaker 3: exactly what you're.
Speaker 6: Doing exactly and knowing what to use correctly. You're actually
Speaker 6: saving a lot of time.
Speaker 3: When you are helping people into employment. Sometimes I wonder
Speaker 3: if South African bosses are maybe not very nice. Have
Speaker 3: you come across that A lot?
Speaker 6: A lot people are not the same. Same applies with
Speaker 6: workers like your your housekeepers, they're not the same. I
Speaker 6: normally say that I will train a housekeeper to be etarawan. Yeah,
Speaker 6: I can't train a bet attitude. So people are not
Speaker 6: the same. If you've got bad attitude, there's nothing that
Speaker 6: I can do about it. If you're willing, I can
Speaker 6: definitely work with you.
Speaker 3: And some bosses people who want housekeepers. I mean, if
Speaker 3: you ever had to say, well, actually i've I've dealt
Speaker 3: with you before, I'm not going to do I'm not
Speaker 3: going to help you again.
Speaker 6: No, I haven't get in to that point.
Speaker 3: Well, I hope it doesn't happen. The experience of helping
Speaker 3: people into work that must be very empowering because people
Speaker 3: are desperate I mean people are desperate everywhere.
Speaker 6: Yes, yes, it must be. It's actually so good. It
Speaker 6: feels so good, especially when you help someone to find
Speaker 6: work to be at wake and they last at that
Speaker 6: work and they make their bosses happy. Actually it's two way.
Speaker 6: The homeowners are happy, the sister is happy, we call
Speaker 6: them sisters. Sisters is happy, then you are good. You
Speaker 6: good people are looking for employment.
Speaker 3: Do you employ any men?
Speaker 6: Yes? I do.
Speaker 3: Do you notice any differences about how it works out?
Speaker 6: Yes, I've noticed. You know what, brothers, I'm not sure
Speaker 6: it's because of their where they're coming. They know that
Speaker 6: if you don't have ten runs, you don't have ten runts.
Speaker 6: Brothers are hard working. They don't come with stories to
Speaker 6: say that tomorrow I'm taking a child to school, or
Speaker 6: I'm sick or what. They're herdworking.
Speaker 3: Sure, I mean I'm always told that it's men who
Speaker 3: once we are lazy.
Speaker 6: Oh, actually men who loves to clean.
Speaker 3: H and ages. I mean, do you find a difference,
Speaker 3: because I mean sometimes older people look at younger people
Speaker 3: and say they don't want to work, you know, I
Speaker 3: mean that's what older people have always said through the ages.
Speaker 6: And that is true.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 6: Sometimes actually the age is it's tricky house. You find
Speaker 6: a lady that is fifty five years old, Yeah, they
Speaker 6: want to mother you. Yeah, it's your home. You find
Speaker 6: a thirty six or twenty seven or the year lady.
Speaker 6: They don't want to work, Actually they don't. They're not
Speaker 6: getting their house working. Yes, how is that being a
Speaker 6: housekeeper or the cleaning business.
Speaker 3: So it differs, and living life experience matters. I think,
Speaker 3: you know, if you're working in a house that's got
Speaker 3: young children and you don't know what young children are,
Speaker 3: you know, that's a whole new level of stuff.
Speaker 6: That's the whole new level. And also getting a younger
Speaker 6: lady that will be really too. As young as she is,
Speaker 6: she's willing to know, she's willing to lend, she wants
Speaker 6: to grow as a housekeeper.
Speaker 3: So something happened during COVID nineteen and I went to
Speaker 3: go and look up the numbers earlier today and last
Speaker 3: In the last quarter of last year, Statis stated a
Speaker 3: survey about domestic workers, and they found that the number
Speaker 3: of people working as domestic workers was sixteen percent lower
Speaker 3: than it wasn't twenty nineteen. So, in other words, something
Speaker 3: like sixteen percent of the people who are working as
Speaker 3: domestic workers in twenty nineteen are not working as domestic
Speaker 3: workers now, and that scares me because that's a large
Speaker 3: number of people who usually the only person who was
Speaker 3: working in the family bringing money in. Do you still
Speaker 3: see strong demand? How's demand for your services? People phoning you?
Speaker 3: How's that changed over the years.
Speaker 6: It has changed a lot since from COVID until now.
Speaker 6: I do agree. Usually would have domestic workers that would
Speaker 6: go and leave December time. We used to be so
Speaker 6: busy December time is that time because of most of
Speaker 6: the domestic workers are now going on LEAF and us
Speaker 6: the sisters at work will come and stand in. So
Speaker 6: now because of since COVID, they're no longer going on leaf.
Speaker 6: They take weekends off instead of the whole December. So
Speaker 6: maybe it's because of money. Instead of the easters, they
Speaker 6: can take weekend off not the whole month. So it yes,
Speaker 6: the demand has changed.
Speaker 3: People must be finding it tougher. Yes, I think everybody
Speaker 3: seems to be finding it tougher. That must be very tricky.
Speaker 6: Yes, it is. Actually has changed a lot compared to
Speaker 6: what we know. To say that December you will hire attempts.
Speaker 6: Actually it's start October to train the housekeepers temp because
Speaker 6: we know that December will be so busy. Now it's
Speaker 6: no longer the same.
Speaker 3: Sure do you expect so having domestic workers is it's
Speaker 3: not something you see in most parts of the world. Yes,
Speaker 3: do you see it in Southern Africa. And it's very
Speaker 3: entrenched in our society. I mean, it's something that maybe
Speaker 3: hasn't changed much at all since nineteen ninety four. There's
Speaker 3: a Labor Relations Act, there's compensation, there's even a union
Speaker 3: that I think hasn't done very well, but it's really
Speaker 3: hardly changed. Do you think it's ever going to change?
Speaker 3: Do you think we're always going to have this? I
Speaker 3: mean sometimes I think we need it because of the
Speaker 3: employment it provides. But it is a kind of almost
Speaker 3: uniquely South African thing.
Speaker 6: It will change. It will change now before we used
Speaker 6: to think that domestic workers are just domestic work. Now
Speaker 6: the domestic workers industry is actually a profession, so we
Speaker 6: need to take it professionally, register them for uif for pension,
Speaker 6: finding all that. It will change.
Speaker 3: It's very interesting sort of to sort of work it
Speaker 3: all out. Do you ever feel a sense of stress
Speaker 3: that people rely on you for their jobs? And when
Speaker 3: I speak to people who run businesses. You know, I
Speaker 3: think that moment where is somewhere they're responsible for someone
Speaker 3: else's sealers. That must be very scary.
Speaker 6: You do feel stressed. I would stress. I will feel
Speaker 6: stressed because if I don't get clients coming in, there's
Speaker 6: fifteen people or eighty people that are not working. So
Speaker 6: I need to make it a point that they keep
Speaker 6: on working. Remember it's not only them, it's their kids.
Speaker 6: They are family that are looking upon them. So they
Speaker 6: are looking upon me, and their kids are looking upon them. So, yes,
Speaker 6: you do feel stressed.
Speaker 3: We're speaking to Embali and Clapo this evening, Housekeeper and
Speaker 3: Cleaning Influencers. She's with us through until eight o'clock on
Speaker 3: The Money Show.
Speaker 6: The Money Show, How I Make My money?
Speaker 3: Embali and clap Or the housekeeper and cleaning influencer with
Speaker 3: us on The Money Show this evening. All right, Embali,
Speaker 3: I mean I have a few questions. I have to
Speaker 3: ask about the actual nitty gritty, the worst job you've
Speaker 3: ever had to do, where you've opened or you've got
Speaker 3: to the property and smelt the air or whatever it is.
Speaker 3: Are you able to tell us?
Speaker 6: Yes, I'll tell you the worst job that I've ever
Speaker 6: done is the holder home. Oh yeah, someone there is
Speaker 6: a holder. Actually, when you get there, the cockorroages I
Speaker 6: just all over. Kep waves are just all over, and
Speaker 6: the smell of reds urine before you given see the
Speaker 6: smell is there. You'll go there, put on your mask,
Speaker 6: your cloves, and you need to get to work. You
Speaker 6: are called to do that. You are cold to do that,
Speaker 6: and you need to do it.
Speaker 3: Do you wear a protective suit when you do a
Speaker 3: job like that?
Speaker 6: Yes? And I make it a point that when I
Speaker 6: come to when I get it home, I by the
Speaker 6: front door, I need to take out my shirt, my
Speaker 6: trouser before I get insight, because you never know, maybe
Speaker 6: might have some cockorroages or what.
Speaker 3: Are they many jobs like that? I mean things happen.
Speaker 3: People maybe pass away and now they children come, or
Speaker 3: the next door neighbor says something's happened here or whatever.
Speaker 3: So I mean there must be big jobs like that.
Speaker 6: No, they are. They are big jobs like that. Sometimes
Speaker 6: maybe someone has passed away. The relatives are getting to
Speaker 6: that house and calling us to say that please did that,
Speaker 6: and we need to sell the house or we need
Speaker 6: someone to stay in the house. There's so many jobs
Speaker 6: like that.
Speaker 3: And you go with a team when you do that.
Speaker 1: Yes, like.
Speaker 6: Tell me I have the a team of that week
Speaker 6: for that job. There's an a team that specifically deals
Speaker 6: with it.
Speaker 3: I would think for the owner or the person asking you,
Speaker 3: they're just going to pay the money. They want to
Speaker 3: walk away.
Speaker 6: They want to walk away. Ask you how many hours?
Speaker 6: You tell them the hours they'll come back afternoon.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, so there's money to be made. Are the
Speaker 3: particular jobs you have to charge a lot for? So
Speaker 3: a job like that would be a lot. Do you
Speaker 3: find that? And maybe there's a small business you end
Speaker 3: up having to charge more for than a private home
Speaker 3: or their particular homes where actually you can just you
Speaker 3: can just tell from the person on the other end
Speaker 3: of the phone, this is going to be a big job.
Speaker 6: No, you can't. You need to go and quote. You
Speaker 6: need to go and quote for such they'll tell your aspects.
Speaker 6: Is to say that there's this room that was not
Speaker 6: opened for ten years. Does these rooms the windows were
Speaker 6: not opened for fifteen years? You need to go and quote.
Speaker 3: That was in Baliant Clapple sharing how she turned her
Speaker 3: love for cleaning into a thriving business and has become
Speaker 3: really very very influential online. Seven you are.
Speaker 1: Listening to the money shows the Best Bids Your Business.
Speaker 3: Book review this week Ian Man, the managing director of
Speaker 3: Gateways Business Consultants, discussing the book Distinguishes This by Professor
Speaker 3: Sandra van Deer murv He looked at the insights of
Speaker 3: office into how your business can set yourself apart in
Speaker 3: competitive markets and also some of the strategic thinking that's
Speaker 3: needed to really have a meaningful differentiation.
Speaker 8: Distinguishers is an unusual what she does. It's it's almost
Speaker 8: an encyclopedia of where the world is moving to. But
Speaker 8: she analyzes what she's seeing and she breaks up into
Speaker 8: four four stages. And the beauty of this is that
Speaker 8: you can actually understand where it's all going to and
Speaker 8: you get a sense of where you should be positioning
Speaker 8: yourself and how I should be looking at your company
Speaker 8: and what more they can actually do. The book covers
Speaker 8: by one hundred different companies and examples from all of them, local, international, everywhere.
Speaker 8: So it's a fascinating read, reads very easily, and the
Speaker 8: it's not just an agglomeration of a lot of ideas.
Speaker 8: She's got a model that comes right through this. She
Speaker 8: says that there are four stages in change that goes on.
Speaker 8: First stage is to shake up and disrupt the status quo.
Speaker 8: The second stage is to frame an emerging future so
Speaker 8: it's different to what's now, and then you're going to
Speaker 8: build into their future. The third one is anything you
Speaker 8: do do at speed because the guys are coming after you.
Speaker 8: And the last one is scale it up. So what
Speaker 8: she's done, she's taken examples from all over to show
Speaker 8: how all this can work. Now, I think what's most
Speaker 8: useful is that it actually is practical. If somebody said,
Speaker 8: well you must shake up your industry, say, well, great idea,
Speaker 8: what does that actually mean? And I think that she's
Speaker 8: using She's shown examples of four different types of shake up.
Speaker 8: I'll just give you a couple. One of them is
Speaker 8: the logical triggers. There are things which are happening around
Speaker 8: you which are logically not okay, and when you look
Speaker 8: at it, you say, logically, here we have far too
Speaker 8: many accidents in this country, and because we have far
Speaker 8: too many accidents, it costs insurance companies a great deal
Speaker 8: of money. Logically, there must be a better way to
Speaker 8: do it. And then you get people like discoveries, saying, Okay,
Speaker 8: I'll tell you what. We'll give you all sorts of
Speaker 8: benefits if you drive properly, So we'll monitor your how
Speaker 8: you drive, how you break all sorts of things, and
Speaker 8: if you're good at that, we're gonna benefit. You're gonna
Speaker 8: benefit from it. So I've now got an incentive to
Speaker 8: actually try to be a better driver. There will be
Speaker 8: a logical trigger for something else. You also get emotional triggers.
Speaker 8: So what happens is you can you might find that
Speaker 8: you've got you're involved in something and it's emotional, and
Speaker 8: you see music and you want to enjoy it more,
Speaker 8: but you can't. So you have to have something or
Speaker 8: other that's going to allow you to enjoy that sort
Speaker 8: of thing. The ethical triggers. Ethical trigger could be we've
Speaker 8: got to try and make money more available to people.
Speaker 8: So if you took something like impesso, which is a
Speaker 8: way of sharing money with people who don't have bank accounts,
Speaker 8: you've got all those sorts of ways to that. There's
Speaker 8: got to be a better way of doing it. And
Speaker 8: people who have come up and started to do new
Speaker 8: things are the ones that make a difference. She tells
Speaker 8: a little story about Zuckerberg early at the very early
Speaker 8: point of trying to build Facebook and one of the
Speaker 8: the you can imagine suited investor system. Have you got
Speaker 8: any examples of anybody who's created a global social network
Speaker 8: and made any money out of it? He said no,
Speaker 8: But that's exactly the point. Sure, And I think that
Speaker 8: the key is to try and find something that nobody
Speaker 8: else has done so you can start doing something that
Speaker 8: really makes the difference. So what we what when you
Speaker 8: look at trying to shake up an industry, one of
Speaker 8: the most obvious examples of an industry that's checking up.
Speaker 8: As opposed to selling stuff, we're selling services. So you
Speaker 8: don't you wouldn't, but you wouldn't buy a car, you'd
Speaker 8: buy the service of a car.
Speaker 3: And so it's going from buying your IBM computer, yes,
Speaker 3: you're buying services from ib.
Speaker 8: Now the lovely part about that is IBM would retain
Speaker 8: the computer themselves. They sell, have it on their balance sheet,
Speaker 8: and all they have to do is they have to
Speaker 8: see to it that works all the time, because if
Speaker 8: it stops working, you'll cancel your contract to give it
Speaker 8: back or you should be giving it back, and they
Speaker 8: will repair it for you quickly so you can continue
Speaker 8: using it. So the challenge is not Yes, there are
Speaker 8: people in in South Africa who might put solar panels
Speaker 8: on your roof, but there's a there's a company in
Speaker 8: the United States called sun Run. What they do is
Speaker 8: they will they will rent you the solo, which is terrific,
Speaker 8: except that all you want from solar panels is electricity.
Speaker 8: So what do you do is you don't rent the panels.
Speaker 8: You pay only for electricity that you use.
Speaker 2: And this is there's.
Speaker 8: A a mind shift because as opposed to saying, well,
Speaker 8: you've rented the car and now you just have to
Speaker 8: have it. So you've rented the car from us, and
Speaker 8: our job to sito that you can continue to doing
Speaker 8: what you paid money for, which is to drive the car.
Speaker 8: So you might only pay for the amount of kilometers
Speaker 8: that you drive. But it's turning as much as you
Speaker 8: possibly can into into into a service which we've never
Speaker 8: had before. And I think that that's that's a game changer.
Speaker 3: So I mean, when we talk about distinguishes, what we're
Speaker 3: really talking about our companies that actually changed the world.
Speaker 8: Absolutely and it really is that to the extent that
Speaker 8: you're you're talking about changing changing behavior. You don't want
Speaker 8: to simply create new stuff which will enhance people's behavior.
Speaker 8: But what you're trying to do is you want to
Speaker 8: literally change their behavior to reflect what the new demands
Speaker 8: would be. You want to improve the products or services
Speaker 8: so you find better ways of doing what they can do.
Speaker 8: So you're trying to really shape things completely differently. And
Speaker 8: I think that the the it's sead of using technology
Speaker 8: to enhance your ability to produce more products more cheaply.
Speaker 8: You use technology to see that the customer's experience it
Speaker 8: is much more wholesome, and therefore they're more likely to
Speaker 8: use your product more. So You've got, You've got. These
Speaker 8: are not ideas. You can actually read this lovely book
Speaker 8: with hundreds literally I think it's about one hundred different
Speaker 8: companies that they talk about, but that she talked about,
Speaker 8: all of these companies are going to be examples of
Speaker 8: what you can do. I think this book is particularly
Speaker 8: valuable to people in business only because it will stimulate
Speaker 8: your thinking. And I think that what happens very often
Speaker 8: we hear more of the same, and when you hear
Speaker 8: stuff which is out of the box, that's nice. And
Speaker 8: especially if there's something already in the box, so you
Speaker 8: can say they did this, let's do something else. And
Speaker 8: if somebody has done something, you can always have an
Speaker 8: add on if you look. If you think that you
Speaker 8: can turn a car into a into an asset which
Speaker 8: now becomes something you can use. But if you can't
Speaker 8: afford the asset, maybe you could just rent the asset,
Speaker 8: says Now a company there rents ubers and and supposed
Speaker 8: to Windering, where the guys that actually can give your
Speaker 8: money back as he as he clocks the fear that
Speaker 8: he has a portion of their fear goes directly to
Speaker 8: a person who's rented the car from. There's a company
Speaker 8: that's set up South Africa, and I think they also
Speaker 8: in Brazil, and you find clever ways of getting much
Speaker 8: much more out of the satisfaction that the customer will
Speaker 8: get from using your product.
Speaker 3: It's really and it's really it's a really interesting study.
Speaker 3: I mean, there are a lot of companies to look through.
Speaker 3: She must have done a ton of research.
Speaker 8: I mean they're they're South Africa, and they're international all sorts,
Speaker 8: and they come from all different areas of business. So
Speaker 8: you've you've really got a lot of things to get
Speaker 8: your mind around and a lot of stimulus. It's it's
Speaker 8: one of those books that really should be read by
Speaker 8: all business people because it's such stimulating. I'll give you
Speaker 8: so many wonderful ideas that you can think of and
Speaker 8: and behind all of that is this four part model
Speaker 8: that you're trying to change things and you're trying to
Speaker 8: move into someone which is quite different. You really do
Speaker 8: want to want to shake up what's happening in disrupt
Speaker 8: The opposite of a distinguisher is an extinguisher. If you
Speaker 8: don't if you keep doing what you've always done, you
Speaker 8: won't get what you voys had.
Speaker 3: That was in man Unpacking the Lessons from the book
Speaker 3: Distinguishes by Professor Sandra.
Speaker 1: The Best of The Money Show and.
Speaker 3: On Personal Finance this week John Monique, they head a
Speaker 3: financial education of Old Mutual. He looked at the risks
Speaker 3: associated with the two part retirement system one year in
Speaker 3: it's a year after it was implemented. He looked at
Speaker 3: someone emerging concerns, the behavioral trends that we've started to
Speaker 3: see and how our retirement landscape is evolving.
Speaker 2: For me, it's a mixed bag.
Speaker 9: You know, on the one end, you can one can
Speaker 9: argue and say the two part system is working in
Speaker 9: a sense that in the long run it will improve
Speaker 9: preservation levels. That's the one end. On the other end,
Speaker 9: there's an issue with people accessing their retirement savings early,
Speaker 9: to the extent that even if there is some level
Speaker 9: of preservation, but that level of preservation is not adequate
Speaker 9: enough to sustain people in.
Speaker 2: Their retirement age.
Speaker 9: So we are likely going to have people preserving, but
Speaker 9: we are likely going to have more people retire, retiring
Speaker 9: into poverty, which is the set reality that will hit
Speaker 9: us when that time comes. In fact, I would even
Speaker 9: add and say I expect that there may be some people,
Speaker 9: given the trends that I'll share with you in terms
Speaker 9: of the people who are likely to withdraw from What
Speaker 9: we are looking at is that we might even end
Speaker 9: up having a situation where there are people who are
Speaker 9: getting retirement annuity from their retirement fan, but that amount
Speaker 9: might even be smaller than what people who are getting
Speaker 9: are receiving from the government, because I don't think it
Speaker 9: has hit the cord that these early withdrawers are going
Speaker 9: to hit us later in life.
Speaker 3: So one of the reasons this reform was brought in
Speaker 3: was that people were resigning from their jobs to access
Speaker 3: their pension. I mean, that's a terrible thing to do.
Speaker 3: I would like to think that on the positive side
Speaker 3: of this, this has stopped that from happening.
Speaker 9: Yes, you're right, it has stopped that from happening, because
Speaker 9: I mean, if you resign, yes, you can access whatever
Speaker 9: was there the old man and others, whatever money was
Speaker 9: in your retirement kitty prior to this reform, but going forward,
Speaker 9: and it was certainly limit to But for me, you know, Stephen,
Speaker 9: this isn't It's more like a small blanket during winter,
Speaker 9: so you have to decide whether you cover your face
Speaker 9: or whether you cover your feet. So hence I say, yeah, well,
Speaker 9: at least we can say people are going to present,
Speaker 9: but if you're still preserve, but you're still going to
Speaker 9: come out on the other side, other side, even para
Speaker 9: than one who's actually getting SASSA. We really need to
Speaker 9: need to ramp up the level of financial education and
Speaker 9: to create awareness about the risks of these early withdrawns.
Speaker 3: I remember the fuss, the cues the report to getting
Speaker 3: from the finance companies on the first day that people
Speaker 3: could access and I mean, you know, there was such
Speaker 3: differing estimates of how much money would come out of
Speaker 3: pensions and in the end, I mean what I sort
Speaker 3: of thought at the time, and I don't know if
Speaker 3: this has been shown to be true or not, was
Speaker 3: that so many people are so desperate for money, and
Speaker 3: I can completely understand why that basically people would take
Speaker 3: whatever they could out of the system. Now that hasn't
Speaker 3: necessarily happened, I hope, But what we do know is
Speaker 3: that quite a large number of people have already claimed
Speaker 3: twice and that must show the level of desperation in
Speaker 3: some ways.
Speaker 9: No, absolutely, And I can tell you now even those
Speaker 9: who are withdrawing, they they cite different reasons why they
Speaker 9: are withdrawing from the funds. I mean, if I were
Speaker 9: to look at just old mutual alone, uh, versus what
Speaker 9: SARS is reporting, and I think for the period from
Speaker 9: inception of the two part I would say at least up.
Speaker 2: To the you know, the new text.
Speaker 9: Yeah, I think we know that the SARS would have
Speaker 9: process claims with forty two billion, and this is specifically
Speaker 9: on the occupational retirement funds. We haven't even touched on
Speaker 9: the other related products such as retirement annuity and all
Speaker 9: mutual would account for just and a four billion of
Speaker 9: that forty two billion for for for that period. I mean,
Speaker 9: if you start looking at when we look, for example,
Speaker 9: the retirement annuity from a different divisions, those who are
Speaker 9: in our massive foundation class, I mean, when we looked
Speaker 9: at that, we've had about ninety two thousand claims with
Speaker 9: an average claim of about three thousand.
Speaker 2: Four hundred, so the amounts are quite small. When you
Speaker 2: look at.
Speaker 9: Those who are more your affluent customers, your middle income
Speaker 9: and so forth, we've had about fifty five thousand claims
Speaker 9: with an average claim amount of about nine thousand rains.
Speaker 2: So it differs.
Speaker 9: But the overall number for or rather the average number
Speaker 9: for the occupational retirement funds, the average claims there amounts
Speaker 9: about just twelve thousand, two hundred.
Speaker 2: It's not a lot of money.
Speaker 9: It's not like it's people are taking money to go
Speaker 9: buy cars and all that. And I think when we
Speaker 9: start going deeper into what sort of reasons are people
Speaker 9: advancing for withdrawing, and I think you will realize that
Speaker 9: it's not necessarily the money is not drawn for the
Speaker 9: pepoles that the two post system was designed for.
Speaker 3: Okay, yes, no, no, no, I think I get you. So
Speaker 3: there's been quite a lot of financial education around this.
Speaker 3: I mean, is this sort of went through the process.
Speaker 3: We've all been talking about it as it became law,
Speaker 3: as the reform started, and all the rest. And I
Speaker 3: would like to think that people who are paying money
Speaker 3: into a pension have actually gone through a process of
Speaker 3: understanding what it's for. So is there a failure of
Speaker 3: financial education that so many people are taking it out
Speaker 3: or does it just again another reminder of the desperation.
Speaker 9: Look for me, it's a it's an issue of it's
Speaker 9: also a case of one being conflicted because even if
Speaker 9: you know that I think, I mean, we know that
Speaker 9: too much consumption of sugar is not good for our body, right,
Speaker 9: the same goes without goods. But does it deter people
Speaker 9: from consuming Not necessarily, because you know, at the point
Speaker 9: at which a person is facing their and they have
Speaker 9: to make a decision, but at least they're making a
Speaker 9: decision fully aware of the consequences of their decision. I
Speaker 9: think the certing would be if people were to continue
Speaker 9: to make these decisions without appreciating that. Because there are people,
Speaker 9: by the way, who have decided and I'm quite keen
Speaker 9: to share with you what the reasons people are citing
Speaker 9: for withdrawing. There are people are saying, no, I want
Speaker 9: to withdraw from my two part savings for a simple
Speaker 9: reason that I just feel that the text doesn't make sense.
Speaker 2: So for that.
Speaker 9: Reason I want There are others who did make it
Speaker 9: withdraw and when we ask them, how likely are you
Speaker 9: to withdraw?
Speaker 2: You know, so they would say different reasons. So I
Speaker 2: think to the extent.
Speaker 9: That people appreciate the disadvantage they're putting themselves by doing so.
Speaker 9: But again, one would imagine that given the fact that,
Speaker 9: you know, the two part system was at its inception,
Speaker 9: there was a lot of hyper hour. I think over time,
Speaker 9: maybe people soon realized that actually it's not worth it.
Speaker 9: Maybe I should keep there. I should keep it there.
Speaker 9: But we need to continue intensifying our efforts to provide
Speaker 9: financial education across the board.
Speaker 3: Why are people withdrawing money from their part? I mean,
Speaker 3: I imagine debt is a big issue.
Speaker 9: So here's the thing, and I'll tell you what the
Speaker 9: people are saying, and I will also give you my opinion.
Speaker 2: On that one.
Speaker 9: So about from our customers, I mean, forty five percent said, well,
Speaker 9: they withdrew to actually settle debt about eighteen percent said no,
Speaker 9: I withdrew them money to pay school fees. Others said no,
Speaker 9: I needed to pay my bond. That's eleven percent. Six
Speaker 9: percent said they were drawing for for groceries. When you
Speaker 9: look at some of the recurring themes, you know, overall,
Speaker 9: we've had people saying, well, I had to lay by
Speaker 9: close for for December holidays for my child. Others are
Speaker 9: saying no, I needed to buy clothes for my run
Speaker 9: and others said no, well I had to put money
Speaker 9: aside for my brothers going to initiation school. And the
Speaker 9: others said, look, they want to buy tombstones and things
Speaker 9: like those.
Speaker 2: Other other reasons people have advanced there.
Speaker 9: But I want to hold in on the the pain
Speaker 9: of death, which is about forty five percent.
Speaker 2: That's the biggest number.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 9: Whenever you do surveys, you must always be mindful of
Speaker 9: some of the biases that creeps in, you know, because
Speaker 9: people want want you to see them favorably, so they
Speaker 9: would always project the image that they are responsible. So
Speaker 9: I think they claim that, uh, there you had with
Speaker 9: they withdrew this money. They withdrew this money to pay
Speaker 9: off death. I think maybe we need to wait until
Speaker 9: we look at the financial statements of banks, uh you know,
Speaker 9: you know, for for that particular text here and say financially,
Speaker 9: and say are we hearing bands and other financial institutions
Speaker 9: saying they're seeing an improvement in their delinquent book. I
Speaker 9: think if we start hearing such stories, I'll start believing
Speaker 9: that it may be there's merit to that that they
Speaker 9: had to settle that. Yes, we've had other things. I
Speaker 9: want with raw again because I've settled my debt. So
Speaker 9: I think that is something that we need to put
Speaker 9: an eye on. I'm very ten to see whether indeed that.
Speaker 2: The man was used certainly to settle debts.
Speaker 3: I mean the risk is that people, yes, we're settling debts,
Speaker 3: but we're settling debts because I've gone and bought a
Speaker 3: car and that's the debt I need to settle, you know,
Speaker 3: because I knew that this was going to happen. I
Speaker 3: think some people have had a nasty shock around tax
Speaker 3: So you expect that you're going to get a certain
Speaker 3: amount out and then you suddenly realize that actually, sahs
Speaker 3: quite busy little organization at the moment, are suddenly taking
Speaker 3: quite a lot out. And I think that must have
Speaker 3: been very tough for a lot of people.
Speaker 9: No, absolutely, In fact, there's about forty five percent of
Speaker 9: members who told us that, look, the text is too high,
Speaker 9: and this is the reason they excited, why they are
Speaker 9: likely to.
Speaker 2: Preserve.
Speaker 9: But I think I must also highlight a stiven that
Speaker 9: people who are likely to withdraw are people.
Speaker 2: On the low end of the income.
Speaker 1: Bracket.
Speaker 9: For example, when you look at people are ending between
Speaker 9: five thousand and just under ten thousand, they are the
Speaker 9: biggest withdrawers us those who are high income. And so
Speaker 9: when we look at people aiming, for example, from seventy
Speaker 9: five thousand to just under one hundred thousand, those are
Speaker 9: the people who are least.
Speaker 2: Likely to withdraw.
Speaker 9: I mean again, one can argue and say, well, I
Speaker 9: guess they and more so therefore they don't they don't
Speaker 9: need it. But I don't think it's so much about it.
Speaker 9: But I just think the pressure is far higher for
Speaker 9: those who are aiming less. So that's why we're seeing
Speaker 9: the biggest withdrawers from people who are ending between five
Speaker 9: thousand and just under ten thousand. But what was concerning
Speaker 9: for me was that almost eighty percent of FAND members
Speaker 9: indicated that they are likely to very likely to withdraw again,
Speaker 9: so which leaves us with about thirteen percent who said
Speaker 9: they're unlikely to withdraw. The other ones were maybe they's somewhat,
Speaker 9: but the thirteen percent.
Speaker 2: Of those who are saying that unlikely to withdraw.
Speaker 9: But eighty percent is a high number of people who
Speaker 9: are saying they're likely to withdraw. So I don't think
Speaker 9: the issue of text has hit home for many of them.
Speaker 2: Others might say, look, I hear you, they are the text,
Speaker 2: but it's okay. Whatever I get is okay.
Speaker 9: But I think when people need to understand what it
Speaker 9: means in the long term.
Speaker 3: Were speaking to John Monika this evening that have financial
Speaker 3: education is all neutral. I'd be interested in your stories,
Speaker 3: your views on the two part retirement system. If you've
Speaker 3: taken money out, what you used it for. Maybe you
Speaker 3: know someone who claimed they were using it, who said
Speaker 3: they were using it to pay debt, actually went and
Speaker 3: bort a car, maybe the other way around. I don't know,
Speaker 3: but you know, has it actually made you stand in
Speaker 3: your job longer? Maybe that would probably, I hope, be
Speaker 3: a very very good consequence. O double one double A
Speaker 3: three oh seven oh two and two to one four
Speaker 3: four six oh five sixty seven, The.
Speaker 1: Money Show, Personal Finance.
Speaker 3: John Manique, head of financial Education at Old Mutual with
Speaker 3: us tonight. Your stories please on O two to one
Speaker 3: four four six, five six seven and O double one
Speaker 3: double A three oh seven oh two of the two
Speaker 3: pot retirement system. John. The tax issue which has caught
Speaker 3: so many people by surprise that you have to pay
Speaker 3: tax on the money you take out. I think that
Speaker 3: the real sort of root of it is that people
Speaker 3: are not necessarily aware that they don't pay tax on
Speaker 3: what goes into their pension when they actually pay it in.
Speaker 3: Is there a bigger conversation to have around how people
Speaker 3: need to understand the tax that they pay on their income.
Speaker 9: No, absolutely, I do believe, as much as it might
Speaker 9: sound controversial for me to say that they they to
Speaker 9: a larger standards. A mathematical problem here lack of appreciation
Speaker 9: of what it means, what these numbers mean. What would
Speaker 9: happen if you keep with drawing and really you know
Speaker 9: that when you get text when you draw, it's money
Speaker 9: that you've lost, but it's actually going to erod the
Speaker 9: value of your fund, and you're going to need every
Speaker 9: sense so that later you can benefit from from the
Speaker 9: compound interest. I think these are the type of conversations
Speaker 9: that financial advisors need to continue to have with their clients.
Speaker 9: I think these are There are opportunities for employers to
Speaker 9: open the doors to financial institutions to come and provide
Speaker 9: this type of financial education to fund members to appreciate
Speaker 9: what it means to benefit from your compound interest and
Speaker 9: how you can easily erode a value when you keep withdrawing,
Speaker 9: and also to remember to keep reminding people that your
Speaker 9: retirement fund was designed to help us to replace our
Speaker 9: salary when we retire, and you want to try and
Speaker 9: max what you're likely to get when you retire, So,
Speaker 9: in other words, when you retire, ideally you need to
Speaker 9: keep what we call at seventy percent replacement ratio, so
Speaker 9: meaning at least seventy percent of your last pay check
Speaker 9: should actually come from what your fund would buy you
Speaker 9: when you retire, and unfortunately, many people will fall way
Speaker 9: short of that number, which is just a completion based
Speaker 9: on you know, assumptions that it's more likely to keep
Speaker 9: you afloat, to stay afloat and to maintain your standard
Speaker 9: of living. But yes, a reality different. There are people
Speaker 9: who are going to retire still with some degree of debts,
Speaker 9: and yeah, we could be talking mortgage, we could be
Speaker 9: talking whatever cars they're driving. Yes, one might say, well
Speaker 9: at that time, my children will be out of school.
Speaker 2: Some might still be a testiary. But all those things.
Speaker 9: I mean, the reality will be different from one person
Speaker 9: to the other, and you need to just understand the number.
Speaker 2: So if you're uncertain, speak to your financial advisor.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, this really sort of boils down to
Speaker 3: that so often. So if we try and sum up
Speaker 3: the reform so far, do you have enough evidence to
Speaker 3: try and turn the clock back. Do you think this
Speaker 3: was a bad idea. We need to go back to
Speaker 3: where we were, and we mustn't forget at a point
Speaker 3: I made earlier that there were some very real problems
Speaker 3: with where we were because of the consequence of it,
Speaker 3: which is that some people were leaving their jobs because
Speaker 3: they wanted to access the pension money. I made the
Speaker 3: point at the very beginning this is kind of a
Speaker 3: unique reform. We haven't seen it really in other places.
Speaker 3: So I would suggest that actually you need ten to
Speaker 3: twenty years of data before you know if it's really
Speaker 3: a good idea. I mean that withdrawals might sort of
Speaker 3: tape off a little bit, they might not. I know, John,
Speaker 3: that's I think a bit like me. You're a kind
Speaker 3: of savings talk if I can call you that, and
Speaker 3: I mean the best possible way. And I also want
Speaker 3: to save as much as I can for later. I
Speaker 3: don't always, but but often, But so I think that
Speaker 3: people like you and I kind of you know, get
Speaker 3: to that to an extent. Our jobs make us like
Speaker 3: that too. Is it too soon to stop us? Do
Speaker 3: you think? Do you think we need more data? Or
Speaker 3: do you are you? Are you decided?
Speaker 9: Look, I think we need to appreciate the fact that
Speaker 9: the decision had to be made because the situation was
Speaker 9: quite dire. That you know, when people keep with drawing,
Speaker 9: you know, you know, rather exiting and not preservel, you know,
Speaker 9: not preserving and just literally withdrawing all their retirement funds
Speaker 9: when they resign, and so we were going to be
Speaker 9: sitting with a much bigger problem unless they were there
Speaker 9: was some kind of reform. So I think for me,
Speaker 9: for now, the two part system may be a better
Speaker 9: angel compared to where we would have gone to if
Speaker 9: we didn't make the changes that we have that we
Speaker 9: have done up to now. However, On the other hand,
Speaker 9: we still have a lot of work to do to
Speaker 9: raise a level of awareness of what it means to withdraw.
Speaker 9: So yes, it was said that look for emergencies. You can,
Speaker 9: but you know, human beings are human beings. I can
Speaker 9: make anything an emergency, you know, So I think that
Speaker 9: level of discipline. So it will require a lot of
Speaker 9: considered effort across the board to raise this level of
Speaker 9: awareness to the extent that people will see that there's
Speaker 9: no need to be withdrawing every single year. If you
Speaker 9: can avoid withdrawing even better, you'll be in a better position.
Speaker 9: So it's a case of settling for a better angel
Speaker 9: and giving ourselves a best shot at providing financial education.
Speaker 3: That was John Monika reflecting on the evolving risks and
Speaker 3: behavioral trends linked to our two part retirement system. He's
Speaker 3: not a great fan.
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