1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,080 Speaker 1: Seventeen minutes past five. Well, earlier in the year, we 2 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:05,320 Speaker 1: spend quite a lot of time talking about the state 3 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:08,879 Speaker 1: of water provision in Johannesburg, and one response we got 4 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:11,719 Speaker 1: from more than one person was to say, well, what 5 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: about the rest of the country. You know, these things 6 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: become news when they're happening Joeburg. But the state of 7 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: water and as well sanitation, the treatment of wastewater and 8 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 1: sewage in other parts of the country is a challenge, 9 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: to put it mildly. Indeed, well, we can put that right, 10 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:32,879 Speaker 1: or rather we can use the Department of Water and 11 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 1: Sanitation to put that right, because they have released three 12 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:39,840 Speaker 1: reports and they come out every year. One of them 13 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:43,199 Speaker 1: eight hundred pages long, as the Green Drop Report that 14 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: audits the performance of around one thousand sewage treatment works, 15 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: looks at the state of our three thousand pump stations 16 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 1: and looks at whether seventy three thousand kilometers of sewer 17 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: pipelines across the country are fit for purpose. There is 18 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: a thirty three page Blue Drop Progress Report that looks 19 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:07,119 Speaker 1: at the status of the drinking water supply in South 20 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 1: Africa and looks where there might be risks. And then 21 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: there is a shorter, but in many ways much more alarming. 22 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: Twenty seven page No Drop Progress report that assesses the 23 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: loss of tap water and the efficiency with which we 24 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 1: use the water that we spend so many millions of 25 00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 1: brand actually processing and rendering fit to drink. So let's 26 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: get the overview that these three reports provide, and welcome 27 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: to the show. Dr Sean Phillips, Director General in the 28 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: Department of Water and Sanitation. Doctor Phillips, Let's start, if 29 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:44,400 Speaker 1: we may, with a Green Drop Report. It's the longer report, 30 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 1: and it's a very very worrying picture. It would seem 31 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: in regard to sanitation, not least because we in many 32 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: places don't employ the right people and in virtually every 33 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 1: place we don't employ enough of them. What is how 34 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: would you characterize the overview that the Green Drop report 35 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: gives us? 36 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 2: But afternoon, John, and good leave afternoon to your listeners. Yes, 37 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:14,079 Speaker 2: you're correct, we did the assessment of all the municipalities. 38 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 2: It's a full green Drop report, which means it's a 39 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:21,119 Speaker 2: thorough assessment across a range of indicators of municipal wastewater 40 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:25,399 Speaker 2: treatment systems, including the state of the infrastructure, and as 41 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 2: you indicated, whether or not they're hiring the right staff 42 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 2: with the right qualifications, and whether they're following all the 43 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 2: correct treatment processes or not. And the report indicates that 44 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 2: there's been a deterioration overall nationally in the performance of 45 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 2: the wastewater treatment systems on average across all the municipalities 46 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:50,519 Speaker 2: since the last time we released the report in twenty 47 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:51,119 Speaker 2: twenty three. 48 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: Okay, so over three years we've seen a deterioration. Why 49 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,239 Speaker 1: is that, Well, there's. 50 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 2: Various underlying reasons. Firstly, we have a talent in South 51 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 2: Africa with regard to the way that the water and 52 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 2: sanitation function is arranged institutionally in most municipalities and the 53 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 2: way that most municipalities manage the finances for it. So, 54 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 2: water and sanitation is supposed to be financially self sustaining. 55 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 2: It's not paid for from the general government fiscus, from 56 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 2: taxes raised from income tax or companies tax. It's supposed 57 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 2: to be paid for by users and people. Users of 58 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 2: water pay for water and then so, for example, users 59 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 2: of water in municipalities be there residential businesses must pay 60 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 2: the municipalities for the water that they use. Those municipalities 61 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 2: in turn pay the water boards for the treated water, 62 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 2: or those municipalities which treat their own water pay DWS 63 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 2: for the raw water, and we use that money to 64 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 2: maintain the dams. The problem is that the system that 65 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 2: most municipalities have in place is that they put all 66 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 2: their revenues that they get from various sources, including property 67 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 2: tax grants, from national government revenue from the sale of water. 68 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 2: They put it all in the central pot, and then 69 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 2: the council decides how to allocate that revenue to various functions, 70 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 2: and often councils take part of the money that's been 71 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 2: raised from revenue from the sale of water and allocated 72 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 2: to other functions, which means that they're not budgeting enough 73 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 2: for the maintenance and operation and the staffing of their 74 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 2: water and sanitation functions. 75 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 1: So I would imagine if we've got problems as outlined 76 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: and detailed in the Green Drop report, that must have 77 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 1: implications for what the Blue Drop report looks at. My 78 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:53,719 Speaker 1: mind goes to Mochale City, for example, where failure to 79 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 1: treat sewage probably means that this is getting into the 80 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: water and that presumably is compromising not necessarily at the tap, 81 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: but in the treatment process, compromising the water that is 82 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: meant to find its way eventually into our households. 83 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 2: Not necessarily, John, because what happens is that the wastewater 84 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 2: treatment works of the municipalities put their effluence generally speaking, 85 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 2: into rivers and then sometimes downstream in the river, another 86 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 2: municipality or even the same municipality will abstract water from 87 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 2: that same river and have to treat it. Now, what 88 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 2: all this effluent from the wastewater treatment works which is 89 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 2: not treated properly is meaning that it's becoming much more 90 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 2: expensive to treat the water. That's the one implication that 91 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 2: is having. But the municipalities have a legal obligation to 92 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 2: warn residents if their treated water doesn't meet the drinking 93 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:55,600 Speaker 2: water quality standards. What it has happened in some places 94 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 2: like hummons Kraal, for example, the roy Val wastewater Treatment Works, 95 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 2: which is under the city of Swiney is not treating 96 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 2: the wastewater to the required standards. It's going into the 97 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 2: Arpi's River. It's flowing downstream, and then the city of 98 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 2: Chinese's water treatment works called the Temper Water Treatment Works, 99 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 2: attracts it but is unable to treat it to water 100 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 2: quality to the required water quality standards because it's so polluted, 101 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 2: and that's the main reason why the people of Hummaskraal 102 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 2: haven't been able to drink the water it's in their 103 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 2: water distribution system for five years. The city of Swiny 104 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 2: has been forced by law to warn them that the 105 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:36,840 Speaker 2: water is not drinkable because it's the water and the 106 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 2: river is too polluted and they can't treat it. But 107 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 2: generally speaking, what is happening is that the municipalities are 108 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,160 Speaker 2: treating the water to the required quality, but it's costing 109 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 2: a lot more because much more, much longer treatment processes 110 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 2: need to be used to treat the highly polluted water. 111 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: And it's all of its aus circle, isn't it, Because 112 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:01,720 Speaker 1: if you're spending more money on that, there's less money 113 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 1: for the leaking pipes, for example, which brings us to 114 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: the no drop report. The stats are absolutely dismaying. I 115 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 1: don't know what word to use, but I think that'll 116 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 1: do for now. Dr Phillips. According to the Water and 117 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: Sanitation Minister, forty seven point three percent of the water 118 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: that is treated and put back into the system either 119 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: doesn't get paid for, but it would seem most of 120 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: it actually gets lost through leaks. And if I look 121 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: just at Kaarteng. For example, non revenue water sits at 122 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: almost fifty forty seven point nine. Is this getting worse, 123 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: getting better or just as bad as it always was? 124 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 2: So for the non revenue water, we do a thorough 125 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 2: assessment of all the municipalities efficiency of water years every 126 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 2: two years. Right this report that we just released is 127 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 2: an interim report, which is not as thorough as the 128 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 2: full report which will issue next year. This interim report 129 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 2: indicates that the level of nine revenue water now is 130 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 2: roughly the same as it was in twenty twenty three 131 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 2: and twenty twenty three it was also forty seven percent. 132 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 2: But we when we release the full No Drop report 133 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 2: next year, it will have a verification of these interim 134 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 2: figures and we'll tell us whether it has remained the 135 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 2: same at forty seven percent or whether it actually worsened 136 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 2: or improved. So it's a bit of a it's a 137 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 2: bit of a situation where you need to either look 138 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 2: at it as a glass half full or a glass 139 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 2: half empty, because it is it is a glass half 140 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 2: full in the sense that it does seem to have 141 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 2: stabilize it forty seven percent, But the glass half empty, 142 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 2: and that forty seven percent is a very high level 143 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 2: of non revenue water, and it's unsustainable. 144 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 1: And of course you've got to hope the glass doesn't 145 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 1: have a small crack or hole in it so that 146 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 1: that's soether that half full but starts leak as well. 147 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: But on a serious notes, I mean there's the loss 148 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: of the water, but the loss of revenue must be immense, 149 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: because there's the cost of the treatment plant, there's the 150 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: running costs of the pumps, there's the labor that is produced, 151 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:16,079 Speaker 1: and then I would imagine each time you build a dam, 152 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: you expected over time to amortize in some way the 153 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: cost of that dam. This presumably is a loss. Never 154 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: mind the cost to individuals their sanity, their businesses, their 155 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 1: households and so on. This must be a loss in 156 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 1: running into billions, now. 157 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:39,199 Speaker 2: Many hundreds of billions across the country. And the problem 158 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 2: is that many municipalities have gotten into a vicious selfish 159 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 2: reinforcing downward cycle where they have no high non revenue water, 160 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 2: and then the municipal council votes to use some of 161 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 2: that limited revenue that they get for other functions, so 162 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 2: they're left with very little budgets for the actual water 163 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 2: and sanitation function, and for doing the necessary maintenance on 164 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 2: their infrastructure, and that in turn results in further deterioration 165 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 2: of the water, increase leaks, and increase non revenue water. 166 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 2: So they need to break that vicious downward cycle. And 167 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 2: the way to break it is to stop taking some 168 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 2: of the revenue from water and allocating it to other 169 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 2: functions and using it for the water function, and improving 170 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 2: the budgets for the maintenance of the infrastructure so that 171 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 2: they can reduce the leaks and get back up, turn 172 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:34,959 Speaker 2: around the curve so it's no longer going down and 173 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 2: starts going going in a direction which shows that non 174 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 2: revenue water is coming down. 175 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 1: Thanks so much, doctor Sean Phillips, Director General in the 176 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 1: Department of Water and Sanitation. Now, these reports make for 177 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: very very important reading. If you want to read the 178 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 1: full reports, you can go on to the Department of 179 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 1: Water and Sanitation website. If you'd like to read a 180 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 1: very very well put together and there's some excellent graphics 181 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: to illustrate some of the written content. Check out Tony 182 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: Carney's piece on the Daily Maverick site. He's done a really, 183 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: really good job of summarizing the key numbers in these 184 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: three reports. But also either here or the graphics team 185 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:19,800 Speaker 1: working with him have made it very very visual and 186 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: visible as well, And now I really urge you to 187 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 1: have a look at it. It's not going to put 188 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:26,679 Speaker 1: you in a great mood, but it does set out 189 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 1: the problems with a high degree of clarity. Twenty nine 190 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: minutes past five