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Speaker 1: We know that times have been incredibly rough in South

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Speaker 1: Africa over a long period pre COVID, during COVID making

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Speaker 1: things worse, and then we've had all sorts of knocks,

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Speaker 1: and then just when we thought we were getting back

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Speaker 1: on track in terms of at least achieving some kind

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Speaker 1: of growth and a modest amount of stability, while we've

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Speaker 1: got this crisis in and around it Ran which has

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Speaker 1: hammered the petrol price upwards and dashed a lot of

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Speaker 1: hopes in the process. A new study has been done

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Speaker 1: looking at the state of what our children face in

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Speaker 1: South Africa. It's done by stats Essay. They collaborated with

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Speaker 1: the Southern African Social Policy Research Institute as well as

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Speaker 1: the UN Children's Fund that some of you may know

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Speaker 1: as UNSEF. So what did they find and how should

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Speaker 1: we be looking at this problem? It is more than

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Speaker 1: just hunger, although hunger itself is a massive problem. Let's

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Speaker 1: look at this phenomenon then of multi dimensional deprivation. And

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Speaker 1: welcome to the show, Arian Wagner, who's CEO and director

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Speaker 1: at the organization Breadline Africa basvag And, welcome and thanks

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Speaker 1: very much for your time. I understand that there are

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Speaker 1: seven dimensions of well being that have been measured nutrition, health, protection,

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Speaker 1: child development, education, housing and water and sanitation and hygiene.

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Speaker 1: Why the importance of this comprehensive look at what children

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Speaker 1: are faced with, because if we were just looking at

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Speaker 1: food and possibly even household income, we may see some

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Speaker 1: modest improvements, although not at the moment, but clearly the

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Speaker 1: study says there's much more to poverty than just those

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Speaker 1: two indices.

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Speaker 2: Hi, good afternoon, John Youth. No, absolutely, as you say,

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Speaker 2: there are the seven dimensions, and I think they see

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Speaker 2: they're all they're all critically important for how our child develops,

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Speaker 2: and either they started at an early age at the

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Speaker 2: ECD center where it is so important for a child

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Speaker 2: nutrition need, but also the access to water and sanitation

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Speaker 2: is incredibly important, So they're all overlapping. For a child's

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Speaker 2: well being to be measured, you've got to look not

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Speaker 2: just in any one of these in isolation, so nutrition, health,

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Speaker 2: as you say, and the whole child development. And a

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Speaker 2: really important part of this is infrastructure and education, and

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Speaker 2: that is the part that that breadline Africa are very

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Speaker 2: focused on, including water and sanitation and hygiene. You know

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Speaker 2: where we work to replace pit toilets, but I think

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Speaker 2: what's alarming is that, you know, the situation hasn't improved.

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Speaker 2: It's you know, they're saying, you know, fifty seven percent

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Speaker 2: of children are multi dimensionally poor. So if you are,

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Speaker 2: you know, in more than three or three of these dimensions,

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Speaker 2: it's classified as multi dimensionally poor, and that is you know,

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Speaker 2: it's actually it's got worse since you know that it's

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Speaker 2: down from sixty point eight percent in twenty fifteen. So

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Speaker 2: it's it's sad that we're seeing this, this three and

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Speaker 2: a half percentage drop in eight years.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean what struck me as you were talking,

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Speaker 1: but also looking at some of the remarks you made

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Speaker 1: in an interview you did a very good piece, by

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Speaker 1: the way, and in Business Day with Stellam up In Zalswa,

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Speaker 1: who's the economics editor. Then you refer to, for example,

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Speaker 1: the simple fact of learners who go to schools where

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Speaker 1: there is appalling hygiene, for example, and there's something of

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Speaker 1: an ordeal in every school day about something that ought

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Speaker 1: to be a right but also easily dealt with sanitation.

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Speaker 1: As you say, that's very much in the wheelhouse of

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Speaker 1: what your organization does, but that can actually have fundamental

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Speaker 1: impacts on how children perform educationally, I would think.

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Speaker 2: No, absolutely, and that's at the ETV level and the

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Speaker 2: primary school level. And we see children as young as

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Speaker 2: four and a half to five years entering primary schools,

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Speaker 2: which is incredibly young. They tiny, and they're they're exposed

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Speaker 2: to the most horrendous toilet conditions where it becomes a

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Speaker 2: trauma and a fear for these children to actually have

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Speaker 2: to physically use the toilet. In some of the schools

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Speaker 2: that we have that have applied to us, they have

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Speaker 2: no functional toilet that children are forced to use the

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Speaker 2: neighboring bushes and fields. But no child should have to

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Speaker 2: learn in fear, so dignity, you know, dignity is it's

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Speaker 2: a basic human right, and for a child to learn,

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Speaker 2: A child can't come to school hungry, and then it

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Speaker 2: can't be scared to drink water and not eat, scared

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Speaker 2: to use the toilet. So these are real things that

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Speaker 2: impact a child succeeding at school. And as we know,

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Speaker 2: education is really the only path out of poverty and

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Speaker 2: for the children to get a better future.

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Speaker 1: And I'm asking you to generalize, and you can respond Ms.

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Speaker 1: Wagner either by with specific examples or indeed making general points,

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Speaker 1: but it seems to me children under these circumstances are

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Speaker 1: also having their horizons shaped and shrunk by the sense

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Speaker 1: that all around them their basic needs are not being met.

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Speaker 1: So we've spoken about education, sanitation in the school place,

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Speaker 1: housing and water is another issue. Protection, which I assume

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Speaker 1: to mean a sense that a you are largely safe

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Speaker 1: in your world, but secondly, when you are threatened, somebody

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Speaker 1: will come to your assistance. If you've got all these insecurities,

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Speaker 1: that must surely affect your worldview. I know with some

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Speaker 1: people it would make them stronger and more determined, but

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Speaker 1: I think for others their confidence must take quite a knock.

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Speaker 2: No, absolutely, And I think this is why early childhood development,

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Speaker 2: in the early learning programs, it's just so important. So

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Speaker 2: many young children whose parents can't afford to pay for

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Speaker 2: children to go to an ETHD center, they are at

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Speaker 2: high risk. If parents have to go to work and

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Speaker 2: children are left with neighbors or grandparents to look after them,

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Speaker 2: they're very vulnerable. They don't get the protection they need.

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Speaker 2: And in a safe ECD center, where there is access

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Speaker 2: to food and stimulation and learning, the chances of that

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Speaker 2: child thriving is going to be so much higher that

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Speaker 2: chances of that child getting school ready is going to

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Speaker 2: be so much more improved. So I mean protection is

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Speaker 2: a key factor and that's where ECD centers play a

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Speaker 2: critical role. And access to ECD centers and that's limited

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Speaker 2: in many of the rural areas.

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Speaker 1: Now, Thank you so much, Marion Wagner. See owned direct

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Speaker 1: at Breadline Africa. This report by STATSSA, the Southern African

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Speaker 1: Social Policy Research Institute in the UN Children's Fund UNICEF,

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Speaker 1: very very interesting indeed, as I said, good piece on

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Speaker 1: the Business Live site summing up some of the most

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Speaker 1: important findings. But looking at the idea of multi dimensional

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Speaker 1: deprivation and maybe if that was part of your life,

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Speaker 1: it's part of the life of communities that you're familiar us,

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Speaker 1: either through family ties or through the work that you do,

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Speaker 1: you may want to comment on this and just talk

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Speaker 1: about how all these different elements can really undermine children's

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Speaker 1: sense of their worth and children's belief in their life possibilities.

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Speaker 1: But it's an important conversation. Quite often we focus in

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Speaker 1: on a single aspect