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Speaker 1: And now The Money Show with Stephen Credits on seven

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Speaker 1: oh two, let's walk little.

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Speaker 2: The Money Show with Stephen Curtis is brought to you

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Speaker 2: by ABS of Corporates, an investment banking, a Pan African

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Speaker 2: bank that's invested in your story because your story matters.

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Speaker 2: Good evening, eight minutes after six I'm Stephen Curtis. What

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Speaker 2: the most extraordinary day it's been on the markets? It's

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Speaker 2: not just that gold went through five thousand dollars announced.

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Speaker 2: You'd been expecting that. Frankly, as the Money Show, we'd

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Speaker 2: been planning for that. But for the JC obviously did

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Speaker 2: a record high. I mean, one does follow the other.

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Speaker 2: But what I didn't expect was on the same day

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Speaker 2: for the rans that the gold is earning us to

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Speaker 2: suddenly be stronger too, suddenly going past sixteen round to

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Speaker 2: the dollar last time I checked, just hovering just below that.

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Speaker 3: It's been much of the day above that.

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Speaker 2: But you know how it is, you test these levels

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Speaker 2: as a currency, and once you break through, you might

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Speaker 2: actually find yourself there for quite some time. Well, let's

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Speaker 2: hope cross fingers and all of that so much to

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Speaker 2: kind of unpack with it. We're going to have a

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Speaker 2: special focus on the gold price and what it does

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Speaker 2: for us from six point thirty tonight. We did think

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Speaker 2: it will be quite an important thing to do for

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Speaker 2: a couple of reasons. We will find out just where

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Speaker 2: we are and how we got here. Also, of course

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Speaker 2: the issue around what it means for you and how

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Speaker 2: you would also get in on the action. I mean,

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Speaker 2: if you're a shareholder of one of the companies, that

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Speaker 2: would really help. And then at the same time we

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Speaker 2: will also be looking at the situation around what it

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Speaker 2: means for actual individual companies Pan African Resources. We will

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Speaker 2: speak to them. They had an update out today and

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Speaker 2: of course their timing in a way could not really

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Speaker 2: have been any better at all, but just the extraordinary

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Speaker 2: sort of nature of how things are and how we

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Speaker 2: got here. And the other thing that is kind of

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Speaker 2: shocking around the gold price is that no one saw

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Speaker 2: it moving so quickly. We all saw it over the

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Speaker 2: last year, but if you go back in time, it

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Speaker 2: was only three years ago when passed three thousand dollars

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Speaker 2: hadn't happened before. Less even when past four thousand dollars

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Speaker 2: in October last year, just didn't you know, it really

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Speaker 2: has just moved to levels that we haven't seen. And

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Speaker 2: I should mention that Platinum is stronger too, and I

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Speaker 2: think that's very important. The other big story and we'll

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Speaker 2: focus on this. We'll speak to Ikarsa, one of the

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Speaker 2: councilors there, Catherine Mushi then just a moment, their chairperson

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Speaker 2: of this process, which is about making mobile data cheaper

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Speaker 2: for you. It's about rolling over bundles, you know, controversial,

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Speaker 2: in frustrating and difficult. This has been for so long

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Speaker 2: that she's the chair of the committee on and the

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Speaker 2: end user subscriber charter at Ekas who will get a

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Speaker 2: view from Imandla dot mobi as well, alessol ramolairfor a

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Speaker 2: very important to hear from her on that, and I

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Speaker 2: think that's going to be interesting. I'd like to hear

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Speaker 2: from you two on seven two seven oh two one

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Speaker 2: seven oh two. How much are you spending on mobile

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Speaker 2: data at the moment? Do you do it on subscription

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Speaker 2: and just ah, never mind, you don't ever look at it? Well,

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Speaker 2: are you sort of going megabyte by megabi?

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Speaker 4: Now?

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Speaker 2: I know people who are literally just sort of saving

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Speaker 2: the megabytes to make a WhatsApp call or managing your

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Speaker 2: bundles very carefully so that you don't waste any money.

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Speaker 2: I think that's going to be one of the things.

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Speaker 2: And I know plenty of people who also will go

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Speaker 2: from Wi Fi zone to Wi Fi zone, and you

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Speaker 2: can tell because you'll send them a WhatsApp and you'll

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Speaker 2: see as they pass into a Wi Fi zone where

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Speaker 2: it goes into two ticks, you know, where it starts

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Speaker 2: a double tick. And then you'll see when they've stopped,

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Speaker 2: when they blue tickets and reply to you, and then

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Speaker 2: you send them another WhatsApp and it's a single tick.

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Speaker 2: You know they've moved on and they're basically waiting to

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Speaker 2: get to the next zone. So we'll talk a little

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Speaker 2: bit about that. I think that's going to be quite important.

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Speaker 2: I was waiting for this moment to come. And it

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Speaker 2: makes entire sense if AI is going to claim, or

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Speaker 2: its owners are going to claim, if an artificial intelligence

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Speaker 2: model to actually be intelligent and to have insight, which

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Speaker 2: is surely the one thing humans have that no one

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Speaker 2: else does, nothing else does, or nothing that we know

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Speaker 2: of does. But then if using AI helps you to

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Speaker 2: have an idea or an insight, can the person who

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Speaker 2: created the AI actually claim money for it? Open AI

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Speaker 2: says they can if you use chat GPT. It's a

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Speaker 2: fascinating discussion because it also leads to a conversation of

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Speaker 2: where does an idea begin and where does it end?

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Speaker 2: What is an idea? And this is something that patent

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Speaker 2: boards have been dealing with for years and years and years.

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Speaker 2: In fact, one day I'd just love to speak to

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Speaker 2: a patent lawyer about their life and what they've learned,

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Speaker 2: the things that they've seen. I think there's a lot

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Speaker 2: there that's very very interesting. Good to hear from you.

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Speaker 2: Double one, double a three oh seven oh two O

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Speaker 2: two one four four six O five six seven, And

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Speaker 2: of course how much the RCU use a month?

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Speaker 3: And what do you use with it?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 2: What do you do with it? Oh seven two seven

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Speaker 2: oh two one seven oh two. Lots to come on

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Speaker 2: The Money Show. Don't forget that big focus on gold

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Speaker 2: at five thousand and about twenty minutes from now, it's

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Speaker 2: twelve minutes after six.

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Speaker 5: The Lney Show with Stephen Krudis live on ninety two

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Speaker 5: point seven and one O six FM.

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Speaker 3: Streaming on the Prime Media Plus.

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Speaker 1: NAP and TSTV Channel eight fives.

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Speaker 2: Well, finally, after literally years of campaigning, the Communications Regulator

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Speaker 2: IKARSA gazetting regulations that will see your mobile data bundles

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Speaker 2: being rolled over at least once if you don't use

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Speaker 2: all the data before they expire. Catherine Mushi is a

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Speaker 2: counselor at KASA and chair of the committee on the

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Speaker 2: End User Subscriber Charter councilor good evening and thanks for

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Speaker 2: your time. So bundles will now be rolled over at

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Speaker 2: least once on the same terms as they were first bought.

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Speaker 2: How big a change do you think this is for

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Speaker 2: the industry and for people who use the data.

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Speaker 6: Thank you for having me and for the opportunity to

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Speaker 6: speak to these regulations. First, let me start by saying

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Speaker 6: these rules were actually first introduced in twenty eighteen, So

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Speaker 6: what we are actually doing in those twenty twenty five

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Speaker 6: is to tighten the rules because you know, we've been

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Speaker 6: observing how the twenty eighteen we was having an impact,

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Speaker 6: and we then came back again after consultation to revise

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Speaker 6: and amend some of the regulations to tend them up.

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Speaker 6: To your question, what we are thinking is that the

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Speaker 6: regulations are now empowering the users, the consumers to rather

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Speaker 6: understand more about what they are purchasing, what the rules

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Speaker 6: are and giving them the opportunity also to lock in

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Speaker 6: that value. You speak a lot about how much you

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Speaker 6: spend on data and all of that, although these regulations

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Speaker 6: don't speak to how much you pay for the data

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Speaker 6: or how we interpret its contribution to the cost. To

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Speaker 6: communicate is that now there is no longer data that

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Speaker 6: is being lost when it expires. We're giving now the

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Speaker 6: consumers the opportunity to roll it over at least once,

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Speaker 6: which and also whilst you're doing that, empowering also the

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Speaker 6: operators to plan better for their network and that you know,

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Speaker 6: the rollover is not infinite. So the other thing is

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Speaker 6: that we also are pushing hard for consumers to be

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Speaker 6: aware of their usage. That you know, the complaint about

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Speaker 6: data disappearing also goes away, especially when we're entering into

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Speaker 6: the smartphones era where apps are probably running in the

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Speaker 6: background and the users are not away. Were then putting

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Speaker 6: the responsibility both on the operator to manage the usage,

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Speaker 6: say by putting in those rules that we are now

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Speaker 6: introducing tightening up actually and also for the consumers to

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Speaker 6: take responsibility on their usage. And in that way we're

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Speaker 6: saying then at least they lock in the value that

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Speaker 6: they've paid for.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if you were able to do a

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Speaker 2: study on this, but do you have any protection on

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Speaker 2: how much data was being lost that now should be

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Speaker 2: used by consumers when these changes come.

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Speaker 7: In unfortunate or not.

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Speaker 6: We have not done the study. What we go on

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Speaker 6: is obviously on self reporting and on complaints, but we

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Speaker 6: have not done a robust study because this is now

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Speaker 6: some commercially sensitive information on one end intrusive. As you know,

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Speaker 6: we are regulating an industry that is quite also litigious,

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Speaker 6: so we have not done that robust study. But we

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Speaker 6: have taken upon ourselves to listen to the consumers and

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Speaker 6: also look at the practices we do as the operators

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Speaker 6: to submit compliance reports on a six monthly basis sometimes

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Speaker 6: called telebasis. There is a terrif report that we then

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Speaker 6: analyze just to see the trends, whether data is going up,

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Speaker 6: But we have not done the lost value.

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Speaker 8: In essence, you.

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Speaker 2: Also say that, for example, Stephen doesn't use his start,

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Speaker 2: he consented to Catherine so long as she is on

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Speaker 2: the same network. I know that some self networks. I

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Speaker 2: think I allowed you to do that before, but I

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Speaker 2: presume this is going to make it easier and in

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Speaker 2: a way mandatory.

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Speaker 6: Yes, So that's why I was saying these are not

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Speaker 6: completely new. But the twitch here is that when in

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Speaker 6: the past and a user had to opt in and

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Speaker 6: you know, make any election, in this instance we're saying

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Speaker 6: that should then be automatic, and it should be free

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Speaker 6: of charge, and with especially the transfer, it should be unlimited,

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Speaker 6: because in the past there was a practice to say

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Speaker 6: you can only transfer so much so many times. So

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Speaker 6: we've taken that away to obviously they're all over. We're

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Speaker 6: also protecting that they roll over. Thirty days is not

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Speaker 6: now sixty ninety days. But the trans say is as

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Speaker 6: long as you've got that unused bundle, you can transfer.

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Speaker 2: The promotions that are for short periods. You can buy

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Speaker 2: a certain amount of data for a day, two days,

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Speaker 2: a week, anything less than a week is not being affected.

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Speaker 2: Why did you do that? Is it to protect the

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Speaker 2: fact that cell phone companies will actually offer you quite

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Speaker 2: a lot of data that you could use but say

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Speaker 2: a weekend over two days, and you wouldn't want to

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Speaker 2: stop that.

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Speaker 6: Precisely, we didn't want to take that value away as

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Speaker 6: we saw that those were the most bought bundles, and

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Speaker 6: we thought let us rather protect that and have the

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Speaker 6: consumers have that option to buy you know, five rands

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Speaker 6: and so. But on the promotion also is because you

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Speaker 6: are giving way more value within a certain TEMs and conditions.

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Speaker 6: And the promotions are also only for a limited period

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Speaker 6: just to introduce a service and the promotion ends and

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Speaker 6: the service stem is tested and put in the market.

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Speaker 6: But the value in those promotional boundles is way higher.

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Speaker 6: We thought, you know, you know, the cost efficiency ratio,

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Speaker 6: would make sense to then say those would not.

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Speaker 8: Be part of these rules.

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Speaker 2: This is only coming in next year. We have to

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Speaker 2: wait eleven months. Why is it such a long time?

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Speaker 6: And as striking the balance, you know, we've got a

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Speaker 6: dual mandate protect consumers but also promote competition, encourage investment

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Speaker 6: and innovation. We also listened to our licensees who said

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Speaker 6: this is going to take a lot of our capital

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Speaker 6: planning to redesign the network to accommodate the rules. We

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Speaker 6: are hoping it's not going to be twelve months because

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Speaker 6: these rules are not completely new, but we also had to,

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Speaker 6: you know, try and be reasonable. But we are hoping.

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Speaker 6: Usually when you introduce a new regulations, you do give

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Speaker 6: it time for it to kick in. But we're hoping

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Speaker 6: it's going to be shorter.

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Speaker 3: Catherine, thank you very much.

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Speaker 2: Indeed, counselor Catherine, She is a counselor at EKAS at

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Speaker 2: the Communications Regulator, chair of the Committee on the End

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Speaker 2: User Subscriber Chart. Twenty minutes after six listening to that,

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Speaker 2: Plesa Romolafo is a campaigner at the group Amandla dot Moby.

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Speaker 2: They've been campaigning for cheaper communications costs for some time. Palsa,

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Speaker 2: Good evening. It's a tweaking of the rules. Do you

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Speaker 2: think it's going to make a meaningful difference to the

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Speaker 2: lives of so many of us who rely on mobile data.

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Speaker 9: Good evening, Stephen, to you and your listeners at home,

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Speaker 9: Thank you so much for having me. I mean, this

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Speaker 9: is great news and a huge win for consumer rights,

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Speaker 9: especially low income consumers because they are the ones that

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Speaker 9: by prepaid data bundles instead of being on a contract.

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Speaker 9: And I think this is ultimately what the Data mus

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Speaker 9: For campaign has been asking a cuta tobut since twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 9: and not just to cussa obviously, but the competition permission.

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Speaker 9: And I think, yeah, this is amazing news. We are happy.

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Speaker 9: This is a step in the right direction. We've had

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Speaker 9: many Amanda Dot Movie members speaking to us about choosing

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Speaker 9: between buying data and buying bread. And this shows you

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Speaker 9: how much other new data has become right now. I

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Speaker 9: mean children use it for school homeworks, but unemployed use

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Speaker 9: it to look for jobs. And so you would hope

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Speaker 9: that mobile network operators would see the bigger picture and

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Speaker 9: stop with their creed.

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Speaker 2: Do we need to go further? I mean, have we

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Speaker 2: sort of are we kind of in the right place,

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Speaker 2: or do you believe there's still more room freak aster

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Speaker 2: to you know, try and drive communications costs down a

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Speaker 2: little bit more.

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Speaker 9: I mean, when you look at where we are right now,

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Speaker 9: I would say that KASA is on the steps to

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Speaker 9: the right direction, but more still needs to be done.

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Speaker 9: People are complaining about the price of data. I mean

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Speaker 9: it's still a bit expensive, and yeah, I think KASA

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Speaker 9: can do more. Even though during these regulations we saw

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Speaker 9: that voter com in ed undermine the process and even

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Speaker 9: said is reaching beyond its powers, which is not true

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Speaker 9: because this is a Cassas mandate and we believe that

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Speaker 9: they have the powers to do more.

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Speaker 2: I mean, on that point, a Nikasa just said, cell

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Speaker 2: phone firms are just there's a long history of this, Pilessa,

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Speaker 2: as you know better.

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Speaker 3: Than I do.

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Speaker 2: Are you worried there will be a court case in

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Speaker 2: response to this? I mean, bluntly, this is going to

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Speaker 2: cost cell phone companies money, and even if they get

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Speaker 2: a call just for a couple of months, that will

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Speaker 2: make more money in that couple of months.

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Speaker 9: Obviously, mobile network operators are not happy with this because

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Speaker 9: we know that they are going to lose profits and

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Speaker 9: they've been ripping us off for years.

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Speaker 7: So this is very progressive. We do know.

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Speaker 9: We do expect, actually rather that they will try to

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Speaker 9: challenge this, and we have to keep an eye on

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Speaker 9: them and ensure that they don't try to use loopholes.

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Speaker 9: I mean we just mentioned the court. We have to

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Speaker 9: keep an eye on them that they don't do that

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Speaker 9: and actually passed down the cost onto consumers, because that

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Speaker 9: would be unfair.

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Speaker 2: One of the things that one of the things I

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Speaker 2: think many people battle with Pelissa, I sometimes do is

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure which bundle I'm using. When you know

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Speaker 2: you will buy a bundle, then you'll buy another one

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Speaker 2: and you have two running at the same time.

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Speaker 3: For whatever reason.

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Speaker 2: Is there a I don't know if it's possible, But

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Speaker 2: do you think there's space for cell phone companies to

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Speaker 2: simplify the way these bundles work, particularly if you end

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Speaker 2: up with more than one at the same time.

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Speaker 7: Yes, there should be.

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Speaker 9: I mean they have the infrastructure and they should be

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Speaker 9: innovative in how they make they use their journey easy

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Speaker 9: for as consumers. So I think they should be thinking

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Speaker 9: proactively instead of waiting so as to support it onto them.

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Speaker 2: We've had one or two messages on WhatsApp PLESA. I

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Speaker 2: don't know if off the top of your head you

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Speaker 2: can help. France is saying that a transfer of a

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Speaker 2: time is not allowed on a contract, only on prebaid.

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Speaker 2: Is that true? It would seem to me that might

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Speaker 2: be true. Do you know, off the top of your head.

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Speaker 9: Off the top of my head, I wouldn't know because

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Speaker 9: I am a prepaid user.

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Speaker 3: Okay, No, I understand.

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Speaker 2: We are seeing a situation where over the last few years,

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Speaker 2: the price of communication, probably from around twenty twenty, has

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Speaker 2: started to really come down, and I remember what it

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Speaker 2: was before. Do you think we're getting to a point

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Speaker 2: where we're quite close to where to where other countries

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Speaker 2: are are our costs still relatively speaking, still higher are

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Speaker 2: we now coming into line with other countries when it

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Speaker 2: comes to data costs?

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Speaker 9: I mean, in twenty nineteen, the Competition Commission forced mobile

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Speaker 9: they took operators to drop prices but between thirty to

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Speaker 9: fifty percent, and I think that was just a client

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Speaker 9: break cake ruling and a step in the right direction.

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Speaker 9: Although I feel like more needs to then we are

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Speaker 9: still a set behind on data pricing. It's still quite expensive.

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Speaker 9: So yeah, that would be my response. We need data

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Speaker 9: prices to drop significantly so that's people are priced out.

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Speaker 2: The lesser ROMOLEVL thanks so much, campaigner at amandla Dotmrby.

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Speaker 2: I mean, one of the things that's so interesting about

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Speaker 2: this process is it affects everyone. I look at what

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Speaker 2: I pay on my cell phone bill, and for various reasons,

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Speaker 2: it's far lower than it used to be. Partly because

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Speaker 2: there's just so much free data where I work, and

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Speaker 2: if you work in a place with Wi Fi, I

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Speaker 2: think that really does change the game. The other thing

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Speaker 2: is just that, yes, the costs have come down, and

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Speaker 2: then of course how we make phone calls nowadays we

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Speaker 2: don't actually use cell phones for what they're called. We

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Speaker 2: often are making calls on WhatsApp, or through some other

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Speaker 2: means without even really knowing it. And in fact, that

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Speaker 2: movement of making calls from sort of old fashioned calls WhatsApp,

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Speaker 2: it's happened without anyone really thinking about it, and it's

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Speaker 2: happened very very quickly. I think for many people in

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Speaker 2: South Africa it was spared up by load shedding, because

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Speaker 2: sometimes someone would still be in a Wi fi area

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Speaker 2: with load shedding, but they wouldn't be able to actually

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Speaker 2: get proper cell phone reception. I remember those days are

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Speaker 2: very clearly. So much has changed into a large extent

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Speaker 2: improved since then. Twenty six minutes after six no money

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Speaker 2: show market Siera and Barter's an investment analyst at the

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Speaker 2: old mutual investment groups here, what a day, Good evening.

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Speaker 2: I suppose we have to start with gold at five thousand.

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Speaker 2: It's happened so quickly.

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Speaker 10: Good evening, Stephen most certainly. I mean gold at five

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Speaker 10: thousand dollars an ounce would have founded absurd not too

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Speaker 10: long ago, and yet here we are actually having a

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Speaker 10: serious conversation about it. I think with the kind of

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Speaker 10: moves that we've seen in such a short space of time,

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Speaker 10: and you're constantly forced to reevaluate your assumptions as an investor,

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Speaker 10: and I guess the key question is always has something

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Speaker 10: structure changed or is this just the cyclical overshoot.

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Speaker 7: So if I go back to.

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Speaker 10: The end of last year, I mean just looking into

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Speaker 10: twenty twenty six, I think there was definitely a strong

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Speaker 10: case for gold to remain quite elevated at least where

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Speaker 10: it was, And crucially, many of the drivers that supported

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Speaker 10: gold last year are still intact today. But I think

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Speaker 10: really at the heart of what's driving the price movements

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Speaker 10: in the last year is really the debasement trade site.

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Speaker 10: So if you think about devesement in general, right, it's

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Speaker 10: the idea that when governments run persistent deficits, when debt

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Speaker 10: levels keep rising, when central banks are perceived to be

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Speaker 10: under political pressure and I'm no longer independent, then the

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Speaker 10: real value of our see it currency tin steward over time,

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Speaker 10: and so in those instances, that's when gold becomes the

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Speaker 10: hedge against that. And that's exactly what we've seen. And

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Speaker 10: I guess the difference now is that it's not really

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Speaker 10: limited to emerging markets, but rather it's a particular it's

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Speaker 10: really driven by the US.

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Speaker 2: I was going to say, I mean, this is all rarely.

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Speaker 2: I mean, if Trump hadn't won the election, we probably

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Speaker 2: wouldn't be having this conversation.

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Speaker 3: Frankly, well, yeah.

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Speaker 10: To a certain extent. I think the question around debasement

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Speaker 10: or dollary debasement had had been or rather the questions

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Speaker 10: around that had been increasing. But it's I could just

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Speaker 10: maybe it turned back to about.

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Speaker 7: Four years ago.

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Speaker 10: So really the major driver behind gold has been central

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Speaker 10: bank buying, and in twenty twenty two we saw major

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Speaker 10: step change, so we saw central banks buying that buying

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Speaker 10: increasing buying gold. And really this was a result of

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Speaker 10: the Russia Ukraine crises, right because Russia and foreign reserves

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Speaker 10: were frozen. But we've seen this trend continue because of

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Speaker 10: the geopolitical tension, because of questions around fiscal stability, and

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Speaker 10: quite frankly, the as we've seen the moves today.

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Speaker 3: No sure cash bill.

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Speaker 2: They had an update today their previously existing store revenue

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Speaker 2: declined and their news stores kind of did.

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Speaker 10: Okay, yeah, sure, I mean on the surface, the numbers

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Speaker 10: don't look to alarting, right, so group revenue was up

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Speaker 10: one percent in the second quarter, But when you actually

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Speaker 10: dig into the details, I think it's the quality of

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Speaker 10: the growth that matters, and that's where things start to

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Speaker 10: become a little bit more nuanced. So the key issue,

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Speaker 10: as you alluded to earlier, was existing stores, right, so

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Speaker 10: same store sales or stores that have been open for

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Speaker 10: more than a year. Sales from those stores were actually

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Speaker 10: down about two percent in the quarter, and that's important

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Speaker 10: because that tells us that the core consumer is still

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Speaker 10: under pressure and growth has not necessarily been driven by

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Speaker 10: people spending more in the same stores, but growth was

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Speaker 10: driven by news stores or acquisitions, which is is not great.

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Speaker 10: So you want to see same store cells continue to

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Speaker 10: arise because that's a lot more sustainable.

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Speaker 2: Indeed, Sierra and Barta, thanks very much. Indeed, investment analyst

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Speaker 2: at the old Mutual Investment Group. And quite a lot

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Speaker 2: going on in the sort of home improvement space, which

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Speaker 2: of course is driving cash build you are the Money

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Speaker 2: Show just gone six thirty.

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Speaker 11: Stephen on seven two seven two one seven oh two.

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Speaker 2: Well, so much going on in joe Burg at the moment,

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Speaker 2: and lots of campaigning here, there and everywhere by the

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Speaker 2: Democratic Alliance. Not so much on notice from the ANC,

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Speaker 2: although I imagine that it'll come and the other parties

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Speaker 2: will get involved. Today I think Herman will get involved soon.

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Speaker 2: I think Herman micharbad a ceremony today to join forces

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Speaker 2: with two other political formations. But I was struck by

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Speaker 2: his story I saw on moneyweb, and I'm almost a

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Speaker 2: little concerned about mentioning it to you because you're probably

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Speaker 2: driving home. I hope you are or nearly home at

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Speaker 2: this time of the day. Which is that it turns

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Speaker 2: out that none of the speeding cameras that are contracted

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Speaker 2: to the Joeburg Metropolitan Police Department are working. Now, would

431
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,320
Speaker 2: you like to know? Three some people around me I

432
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,439
Speaker 2: have noticed to her laughing, would you like to know

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Speaker 2: the reason?

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Speaker 3: Would it be?

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Speaker 2: Do you think because someone has vandalized and that would

436
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:08,680
Speaker 2: be a logical choice, But.

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Speaker 3: No, that's not the reason. Do you think it.

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Speaker 2: Could be because there was a problem and termites ate

439
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 2: the fire that No, Tolly Keller, Yes.

440
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,400
Speaker 12: There's only one operator in the country and they've gone

441
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 12: to leave.

442
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 2: No, that's not the reason, although very good. Put up

443
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:33,639
Speaker 2: your hand if you think it was because someone somewhere

444
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 2: have forgot to roll over the contract.

445
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:38,400
Speaker 3: Yes, my hand is up. But I know the answer.

446
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,919
Speaker 3: I mean, seriously, seriously.

447
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 2: I come on, and how long is it gonna now

448
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:46,480
Speaker 2: if you're the company, and if you think about it,

449
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:48,640
Speaker 2: you've got a network of these things around joe Burg,

450
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:50,119
Speaker 2: and you know what's going to happen.

451
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:51,119
Speaker 3: You can just sit and wait.

452
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,600
Speaker 2: You'll lose a little bit of revenue, but I'm sure

453
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:55,919
Speaker 2: you can just sit and wait. And now they're dealing

454
00:23:55,960 --> 00:24:00,320
Speaker 2: with handwritten fines and these will be fine in a

455
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 2: fine book, you know, the old fashioned thing. And I'm

456
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:07,200
Speaker 2: trying to remember the last time I actually got one

457
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 2: of those, and the last couple of times. I'm slightly

458
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:11,399
Speaker 2: ashamed to say this, but once or twice I have

459
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 2: been stopped by someone who says, we are you breaking

460
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 2: the speed limit? And I was like, I'm very sorry,

461
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 2: there might be a hinter cool drink. I say no

462
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:23,359
Speaker 2: because I'm quite adamant about that. And then they say

463
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:24,879
Speaker 2: I could give you a fine, but just don't do

464
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 2: it again, and like that's it. And I realized that

465
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 2: maybe I'm treated better police by police officers because I'm

466
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:34,400
Speaker 2: a certain age, a certain.

467
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 3: Way exce understand all of those things. But it is bizarre.

468
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 3: I'm trying to remember when was the last time you

469
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 3: got a hand written fine? Can anyone remember to LL

470
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 3: have you ever had one once once in eight yeares.

471
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,360
Speaker 12: I hate to say this, but anytime I get stopped

472
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,400
Speaker 12: by a female officer, I know I'm going to get

473
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:57,719
Speaker 12: a FIGHTE Wow. That is the truth, Steven, It's the truth.

474
00:24:57,960 --> 00:24:59,880
Speaker 12: When it's a man, I just smile. I'm like, I'm

475
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 12: you sorry, and then they never give me a fed.

476
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 3: You know, I was pretty.

477
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:08,480
Speaker 2: Disturbed by the story before. Now I am sorry. Now

478
00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,880
Speaker 2: I'm even more disturbed. Gosh, we should have a full

479
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,959
Speaker 2: length inquiry. I don't know if toller Keller has got

480
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 2: enough air left for a bullet. And It's twenty one

481
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:17,919
Speaker 2: minutes to seven.

482
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 5: The Loney Show with Stephen Kruders Live on ninety two

483
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 5: point seven and one six FM, streaming on the Prime

484
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 5: Media Plus.

485
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 1: NAP and DStv channel eight five six.

486
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 2: Eighteen minutes to seven, the eighteen minutes to seven the

487
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 2: time now on The Money Show and Gold going past

488
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,640
Speaker 2: the most astonishing milestone today, speeding past five thousand dollars

489
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,399
Speaker 2: an ounce this morning at one point five thousand dollars

490
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:47,160
Speaker 2: one hundred and ten an ounce. Now going past five

491
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 2: one hundred dollars so quickly this afternoon we start your

492
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 2: coverage of this this Evening with Peter Armitach, the CEO

493
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,399
Speaker 2: of Anchor Capital, Peter good Evening. Gold went past two

494
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 2: thousand dollars an ounce just in twenty twenty, passed three

495
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,119
Speaker 2: thousand dollars an ounce in May last year, then passed

496
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 2: four thousand dollars an ounce in October, just a few

497
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 2: months later, five thousand dollars. The acceleration in the price

498
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:13,359
Speaker 2: has been just astonishing.

499
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think this is not getting into proper bubble territory.

500
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 4: You know, in financial markets, you see this happen to

501
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 4: some asset classes from time to time. We're just literally

502
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,400
Speaker 4: goes parabolic and people are just buying in a frenzy

503
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 4: in the expectation that the price we could hire to

504
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,719
Speaker 4: put it in context an inflation adjusted terms, the highest

505
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,640
Speaker 4: price for gold as of six months ago as about

506
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,680
Speaker 4: three thousand, eight hundred, so it's about fifty or sixty

507
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:45,200
Speaker 4: percent higher than it's ever been. There are some fundamental

508
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 4: differences now into the central bank buying and the like,

509
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:52,159
Speaker 4: but it's you know, to be able to use it

510
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 4: in jewelry is just you know, it's and a lot

511
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 4: of it's other uses just it's what's the child's down?

512
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 2: Are you expecting that the bubble will burst at some point,

513
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 2: and I mean impossible question as to when that might happen,

514
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,040
Speaker 2: especially as long as central banks are still buying.

515
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, look, I think a lot of it. There's a

516
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 4: double whare me for gold. One is Trump's behavior and

517
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 4: the effect that it's having on us confidence and the dollar.

518
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 4: So the weaker the dollar gets, the more people are

519
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 4: rushing into gold because there's no other really attractive currency

520
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 4: over the Swiss frank And then on the other side,

521
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:31,159
Speaker 4: you've got very strong fundamentals in terms of you know,

522
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 4: not much supply growth and demand around the world as

523
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 4: emerging markets come back getting a lot stronger. So it's

524
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 4: getting squeezed from both sides. But gold historically has been

525
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 4: as volatile as stock markets, and every time there's been

526
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 4: a spark like this, it comes back. But it's you know,

527
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 4: another thing I've learnche is never to call the top

528
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 4: of a ball.

529
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 8: Market can sink to often.

530
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,640
Speaker 4: Go much higher than you than you ever imagined, which

531
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 4: in fact it has already.

532
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,879
Speaker 2: Peter, There's another way to look at this, and everyone

533
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,640
Speaker 2: will keep making the same point. That has gone faster,

534
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,919
Speaker 2: more quickly and reached higher levels of value than anyone

535
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 2: ever expected. I remember towards the end of last year

536
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,200
Speaker 2: people saying five thousand dollars by the end of twenty

537
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 2: twenty six. I thought, cheesh, that's a bit optimistic, And

538
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 2: suddenly we're not even were sort of in the third

539
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 2: fourth week of January. And I understand that largely it's

540
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,879
Speaker 2: driven by fear to an extent, that people are worried

541
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 2: that governments can't pay their debt, that the value of

542
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,160
Speaker 2: money fiat currency will be reduced.

543
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 3: But if gold is.

544
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 2: Becoming more valuable more quickly than anyone expected, is that

545
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 2: also a sign that people are more scared now because

546
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,479
Speaker 2: things are so much worse at this point than anyone

547
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 2: expected them to be.

548
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 11: Yeah.

549
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 4: I think it all comes back to the dollar. Yeah,

550
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 4: that's the source of liquidity in the world. That's some

551
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 4: people trade in about eighty percent of global traders in dollars,

552
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 4: and you know, it's point of reference. There was always

553
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 4: the place of safety. If things got bad in the world,

554
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 4: the US government bonds and the US dollar strengthens. Now

555
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 4: we sit in a bizarre situation where it's the US

556
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 4: government that's pousing the angst.

557
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 13: And and you know, so people.

558
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 4: Want to they want to get out of dollars, but

559
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 4: the euro is not particularly attractive, the paths not particularly attractive,

560
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 4: the end's not particularly attractive. So you kind of left

561
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 4: to the Swiss Frank, which has flown off the charts,

562
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 4: and gold. But the Swiss Frank is so small, it's

563
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 4: less than one percent of the total number of dollars

564
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 4: in issue. So gold is kind of weirdly operating as

565
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 4: a currency as well now, so it's filling that that's

566
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 4: safe haven. So people wanted a safe haven. You know,

567
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 4: it was often US government bonds, but because of the

568
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 4: because of people's concerns about the long term balance sheet

569
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 4: in the US, that hasn't been a place of refuge.

570
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 4: In fact, in Japan with what where they're balance sheets,

571
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 4: it's you know, there ones have been tanking that's spiked

572
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 4: as much as gold, but spark in a negative way.

573
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 2: I accept what you say that you think we're in

574
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 2: bubble territory, and accept your reasons for it. But if

575
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 2: the geopolitics stays the same, if the dollar keeps going

576
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 2: in the same direction, if Trump keeps doing what Trump

577
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 2: wants to do, I mean, doesn't that support the case

578
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 2: for gold to stay here or even much higher for

579
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 2: some time to come.

580
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 4: Absolutely, that could well be the case. Don't get me wrong.

581
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 4: I'm not saying it can't go high and it can't

582
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 4: go in for longer. But you must remember the things

583
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 4: that you mentioned aren't forever factors. You know, Trump could

584
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 4: be out of a sective power in six months time,

585
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 4: you could be out of presidency. Pull he will be

586
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 4: in two and a half your time. Simply, you know,

587
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 4: judge an age. You know, the world is cyclical and

588
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 4: conditions change. The conditions right now, as I said that,

589
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 4: the number of factors all conspiring to push the gold

590
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,959
Speaker 4: pross up, but those factors are not forever factors. So

591
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 4: I mean, if you want to ride the do you

592
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 4: want to ride the rider coaster? It could well be

593
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 4: more to go. But you know, ultimately, ultimately things revert

594
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 4: to the mean and revert to fundamentals. Although you do

595
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 4: get the sense that there's an element of the arguments

596
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 4: to be using that have fundamentally change, like the Central.

597
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 3: Bank buying.

598
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 2: Peter Omitis, thank you so much, Really appreciate the time

599
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 2: CEO of bankor Capital twelve minutes to seven on the

600
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 2: Money Show. Well, one of the companies that's benefiting from

601
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 2: the much higher goal prices. Pan African Resources they confirm

602
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 2: today they intend to pay out their first ever interim dividend.

603
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 2: They've increased their production for over fifty percent in six

604
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 2: months to the end of December. The CEO oft Pan

605
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 2: African is Lewitscrubus Good evening, Kelly. A high gold price

606
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 2: having a nice big impact on you.

607
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 8: Yeah, very much so and so long made of old

608
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 8: Bis continued, but we certainly not banking on these sort

609
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 8: of biss and that's why we we take the were

610
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 8: in forced and we reinvesting in the business. We're growing

611
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 8: the business. As you've said, we sort of have managed

612
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 8: to increase production by fifty percent in the last six

613
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 8: months versus H one of twenty five and now yes,

614
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 8: it's a first in terms of an incandividence to rewarding

615
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 8: our shoelders with a cash return.

616
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 2: You say you've been able to increase production, I mean

617
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 2: one of the reasons gold is where it is is

618
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 2: because of a lack of supply. Are you able to

619
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 2: increase that production even further?

620
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 8: Almost definitely required to increased production again in H two

621
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 8: and being a smaller producer, I mean we can do

622
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 8: what the majors can't. The majors can't increase the production

623
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 8: by fifty percent. You know, it's very difficult to find

624
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:43,720
Speaker 8: the large calvial bard it's two hundred, two hundred and

625
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 8: fifty thousand ounces of production. But for us, if we

626
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 8: grow our production by fifty or a hundred thousand ounces

627
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 8: a year, that's incredibly meaningful.

628
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 2: You say you're planning to pay back all of your

629
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 2: debt by the end of February. I mean, was that

630
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 2: something you'd ever considered, say two years ago, with gold

631
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 2: at maybe three thousand dollars an ounce, Is that something

632
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,320
Speaker 2: you could even conceive of doing that by the end

633
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 2: of February twenty twenty six.

634
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,719
Speaker 8: Well, we always be quite conservative when we do our planning,

635
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 8: and we wouldn't generally embark on a new project if

636
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 8: we couldn't see a return of our capital in three

637
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 8: or four years. So that's really the way we model.

638
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 8: I mean, we took out or took on quite a

639
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 8: lot of date, the most actually ever on our beatting

640
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 8: shery to build our MTR operation out at Machali, which

641
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 8: had been an incredible success. Initially we'd expected to play

642
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 8: it back at sea to four years, but that project

643
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 8: now will play itself back in under two years, which

644
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 8: is incredible.

645
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 3: At some point.

646
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 2: I mean, if gold, if this gold price is not

647
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 2: a bubble, there's going to be more gold production. Won't

648
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 2: just be you, It'll be other people as well. We

649
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 2: already see people trying to make money out of reclaiming

650
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 2: gold from tailings and things like that. Do you have

651
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 2: any idea of whether there'll be a lot more gold

652
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 2: production coming on stream in the industry over the next

653
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 2: cup of years that surely would have an impact on

654
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 2: the price.

655
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 8: Well, then there's a very few large scale projects that

656
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,840
Speaker 8: are that are coming on stream globally. That's affect I

657
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 8: mean to go and do exploration and the development. I

658
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 8: mean extently see days the ten fifteen year sort of timeframe.

659
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 8: So it's unlikely you're going to see a lot of

660
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 8: additional production coming on stream. I mean what is to though,

661
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 8: is gold is unlike other commodities which are consumed. I mean,

662
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 8: most of the goal that's be minded setting in safe

663
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 8: so and it's clear that people aren't letting go of

664
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 8: the product at this point. Is as Peter said that

665
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 8: previousd and central banks are buying, they're viewing it at

666
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 8: the edge against the dollar, and that feels to me

667
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 8: like it's a fundamental shift now with all the central

668
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:48,760
Speaker 8: banks will also so massively exposed to gold to nobody's

669
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:50,760
Speaker 8: interesting to have that price go down massively.

670
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,760
Speaker 2: Coviz, thanks very much, indeed, the CEO at Pan Africa,

671
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 2: and let's continue the conversation about the gold price now.

672
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 2: So in Bilbopela isn't in investment research and this to

673
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 2: definite be wealth and investments in Bile. Good evening, and

674
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 2: thanks for your time. I mean, I would like to

675
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 2: think that many South Africans have been able to make

676
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,839
Speaker 2: some money from golden gold investments during this time. Are

677
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 2: there ways to take advantage of what's happening to the

678
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:15,720
Speaker 2: gold price?

679
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 7: Evening, Stephen, thank you for having me on the A. Yeah,

680
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 7: I mean, we've seen such incredible sort of such an

681
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 7: incredible raty and the gold price, and we've seen quite

682
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 7: strong demand coming through not just from institutions but also

683
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 7: from you know, retail investors who are you know, sort

684
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 7: of seeking out sort of gold based ets as one

685
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,279
Speaker 7: way to gain exposure. But you know there's also the

686
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 7: krug Grand sort of physical exposure to gold as well.

687
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 7: So they have been you know, sort of multiple ways

688
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 7: for investors to gain access to this searge and the

689
00:35:57,880 --> 00:35:58,959
Speaker 7: gold price that we've seen.

690
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 2: I would think for a lot of people, perhaps the

691
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 2: simplest way, if you're already invested on the JC is

692
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 2: just to buy as many gold shares as you can.

693
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 7: Hum and we've seen that sort of strategy pay of

694
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 7: quite well. I mean, the gold price has been a

695
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:17,879
Speaker 7: boon for gold miners that we've seen outperformed the markets,

696
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 7: not just the gold miners but also PGNs in general.

697
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 7: But yeah, it's definitely been on the back of the

698
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,239
Speaker 7: strong gold price more than it has been an operational

699
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,759
Speaker 7: sort of story for those miners. And yeah, it has

700
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 7: really been a capital gain story more than anything.

701
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:35,839
Speaker 2: Is it too late to get in on the action,

702
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 2: do you think? I mean, there'll be endless debates about

703
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:41,320
Speaker 2: whether gold is a bubble, whether it's got a longer

704
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 2: way to go. I mean, I don't know if you

705
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 2: make recommendations, but i'd imagine plenty of people listening tonight

706
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 2: will be considering if they're not already getting into gold shares.

707
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 13: Yeah, I mean, so, I mean.

708
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 7: We have to talk about how gold got to these

709
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 7: levels in the first place. You know, and it has

710
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:01,879
Speaker 7: been a number of magnificant factors. I mean, gold has

711
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:05,320
Speaker 7: historically been used in portfolio allocation as a hedge against inflation.

712
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:09,399
Speaker 7: So in a high inflation rate environment, when inflation sort

713
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 7: of eats away at the value of assets, sort of

714
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:16,279
Speaker 7: reducing the buying power of currency, gold helps to you know,

715
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:20,439
Speaker 7: protect and maintain value in that situation. But also there's

716
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 7: the elements of you know, the weaker US dollar that

717
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 7: makes gold more attractive, especially to international holders like ourselves.

718
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 7: So that drives up demand and it in turn pushes

719
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 7: up gold prices. And so there's that sort of knitting

720
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 7: or that offsetting effect that creates that protective hedge. But

721
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 7: there's also been a sort of fiscal concerns around heavy

722
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 7: government spending that is being sort of driving safe haven

723
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 7: demand and driving central bank activity. So central banks we're

724
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,240
Speaker 7: seeing are stucking up on gold, sort of diversifying away

725
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:57,439
Speaker 7: from the dollar. That's been also quite a supportive sort

726
00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 7: of up tailwind for gold price. But there's also been

727
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,280
Speaker 7: you know, the elements of a low interest rates environment

728
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 7: that's also been supportive. I also already mentioned the sort

729
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 7: of bulk buying by retail traders are seeking out demand

730
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 7: for gold based ets, and so there's there's definitely an

731
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 7: element of the fundamentals that are driving the gold price,

732
00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 7: but there's also very much an element of speculation and

733
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:30,279
Speaker 7: quote unquote formo that's playing out in the market as well,

734
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 7: because you know, these are record levels that you know,

735
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 7: gold price just hasn't touched before, and so there is

736
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:40,279
Speaker 7: an element of traders not wanting to miss out on

737
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:45,320
Speaker 7: the rally, which is quite I mean yeah, but wouldn't

738
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 7: make a recommendation per se, but it is, you know,

739
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 7: something that you need to be very cautious about at

740
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,279
Speaker 7: you know, such stretched levels, because you do see the

741
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 7: price is quite stretch. But again, those fundamentals are very

742
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,800
Speaker 7: much still in place. So even from a technical perspective,

743
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 7: we still see that, you know, there might be sort

744
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 7: of a near term consolidation or a pullback in the

745
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 7: gold price, but the fendom so there might be a

746
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 7: pullback from the current lavel that we're seeing right now,

747
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 7: but the sort of bullish story underlying story because of

748
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 7: the fundamentals, is very much still intact.

749
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:21,839
Speaker 2: And Krueger rands, I mean you can still buy them,

750
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,800
Speaker 2: I think probably the only legal way to actually hold

751
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:28,560
Speaker 2: gold apart from jewelry, their value must have increased dramatically,

752
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:30,799
Speaker 2: and I'd imagine there'll be quite a big market in

753
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 2: that definitely.

754
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:36,359
Speaker 7: I mean with the I mean krugerrands as much as

755
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:40,839
Speaker 7: their coins of physical coins, they don't behave like currency, right,

756
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 7: they actually follow the same rules as gold. And so

757
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:49,320
Speaker 7: with the higher gold price that we've seen, and also

758
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:53,319
Speaker 7: with Krueger and specifically being a very low premium sort

759
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:56,360
Speaker 7: of asset tritunity, they trade very close to the spot

760
00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 7: price of gold. You've investors who are holding for sort

761
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:03,799
Speaker 7: of seen an immediate sort of sharp valuation uplift in

762
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 7: rand's terms. So I mean that's the first and most

763
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 7: direct implication would be that significant jump in the rand value,

764
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 7: which is far above past cyclical peaks that we've seen,

765
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 7: you know, driven by yes, the I've already mentioned the

766
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 7: sort of higher US dollar price, but also there's the

767
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 7: impact of the exchange rates at player as well. But

768
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 7: I think also there's just you know, the elements of

769
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 7: gold not being viewed as an inflation hedge or a

770
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 7: sort of tactical risk of asset anymore. It's becoming increasingly

771
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 7: viewed as a sort of core store of wealth, and

772
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 7: so sort of holding physical gold and holding krugar rands

773
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 7: has those benefits of exposing sort of investors to the

774
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 7: yellow metal in that fair.

775
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:53,759
Speaker 2: Susan Bill and Bopela, thanks so much. Really appreciate the

776
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 2: time and investment research onunders to definitely wealth and investments.

777
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 2: I don't think, I mean my own view. I don't

778
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 2: know enough to say whether gold's in a bubble or not,

779
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 2: or to agree with Peter Armitage or to disagree with them.

780
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:08,280
Speaker 2: But I will say I don't think the gold story

781
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 2: is finished.

782
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,439
Speaker 14: The Money Show with Stephen Quetis is brought to you

783
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 14: by abs A cib A Pan African Bank invested in

784
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 14: your story and the potential it can unlock because your

785
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,839
Speaker 14: story matters APPS as a raster fsp.

786
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 2: Well in a moment, when does AI get to claim

787
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 2: credit for your idea if you used AI to have

788
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 2: the insight. Also, we'll find out a bit more about

789
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 2: the book Dang Xipong and the Transformation of China really

790
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 2: an extraordinary story of something that completely changed the world.

791
00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 2: Don't forget, of course as well. I'll shape our my

792
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:48,320
Speaker 2: money person tonight. No sept Market or Vandenbrach, the founder

793
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:52,239
Speaker 2: of Chocolate Tribe, the video agency, I should call it

794
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 2: the film production agency that to come. It's just gone

795
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 2: seven o'clock.

796
00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 1: And now The Money Show with Stephen on seven o two.

797
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 1: Let's walk little.

798
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 3: The Money Show with Stephen.

799
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 2: Crisis is brought to you by ABS of Corporate and

800
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,399
Speaker 2: Investment Banking, a Pan African bank that's invested in your

801
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:14,320
Speaker 2: story because your story matters. Six minutes after seven plenty

802
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:16,839
Speaker 2: to come. We will speak in a moment too young

803
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:18,800
Speaker 2: Famila and the editor at my broad band. It's a

804
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:22,799
Speaker 2: fascinating concept that really gets to the question of how

805
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 2: do you have an idea and what are you doing

806
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:28,800
Speaker 2: when you have it? And I mean the sort of

807
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 2: theory that I've come to accept most of the time

808
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 2: is to think very hard about something and then go

809
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 2: away and do something else. And it's why you've got

810
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:39,359
Speaker 2: it in your head, but you're actually doing something else.

811
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 2: I'll be on my mountain bike, or I'll be in

812
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:43,919
Speaker 2: the shower or something. And plenty of people who say,

813
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:46,760
Speaker 2: and I've heard that phrase so many times, the solution

814
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:48,759
Speaker 2: came in the shower. And it can be whatever it

815
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:51,360
Speaker 2: is trying to get, you know, the light bulb and

816
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,360
Speaker 2: the kid's toy to work or trying to actually solve

817
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 2: I don't know world peace or something, but you know,

818
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:00,840
Speaker 2: literally from the banal to the really quite important, where.

819
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 3: Does an idea come from?

820
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 2: Well open, AI suggest that in fact, if you're using

821
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:08,799
Speaker 2: chatchipt in some ways to maybe enhance a vaccine or something,

822
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 2: they should get some of the credit.

823
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,360
Speaker 3: Hmmm. I don't know about that actually.

824
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:16,399
Speaker 2: I mean if you use a tool and the tool

825
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 2: helps you with an insight, I mean I've never heard

826
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 2: of someone then saying well, the tool must get some

827
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 2: of the credit. Where does it sort of end?

828
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:26,239
Speaker 3: I mean, what if you use Google? Things like that.

829
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 2: Very interesting actual conversation. We'll talk about that in just

830
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 2: a moment. The history of China. Things upon in the

831
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 2: transformation of China, the beginning of a process has had

832
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 2: a big impact on inflation in South Africa, the industrialization,

833
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 2: the liberalization, the economic freedom of China. Will speak to

834
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 2: in fact, Matthew Parks from Kasatu, he's been reading that

835
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 2: that'll be your book business book tonight, and then How

836
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 2: I Make My money nor Sport Maketto. Fan de brach To,

837
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 2: the founder of Chocolate Tribe. Born inswidow studied law at adverts.

838
00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:03,320
Speaker 2: Thence iodied law again at the LSE, got a master's

839
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 2: and found herself running a film studio. It's a really

840
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 2: interesting story. We have extraordinary people with really extraordinary stories

841
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 2: in South Africa. So I'm looking forward to that good

842
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 2: to year from you tonight, oh double one double A

843
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 2: three oh seven O two two one four four, six

844
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 2: oh five sixty seven and voice notes on seven two,

845
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 2: seven oh two one seven o two.

846
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:25,359
Speaker 11: What's app Stephen on seven two seven oh two one

847
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:26,319
Speaker 11: seven oh two.

848
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 2: So some questions on the WhatsApp line about how it

849
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:32,239
Speaker 2: is that we're going to use the new regulations and

850
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:35,919
Speaker 2: the casters new regulations around cell phone data. Monique saying,

851
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 2: how's the role over going to work? We're not giving choices.

852
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 2: I'm on prepaid, I'll buy data for seven days. I

853
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:43,280
Speaker 2: have to buy a combo data that has an amount

854
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 2: for a day and amount at night. I lose the

855
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:47,760
Speaker 2: night data as I don't spend my nights on the internet.

856
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:51,399
Speaker 2: Whatever I lose, What do I lose if I don't

857
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:54,360
Speaker 2: use my data within the seven days? Well, I think Monique,

858
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 2: everything past seven days, there'll be a real change. But

859
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 2: the seven day promos aren't going to change. Them afraid

860
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 2: to say in terms of night data, I actually don't

861
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 2: know the stage. This is one of those changes that

862
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:08,240
Speaker 2: will take a little while for there to be some clarity,

863
00:45:08,360 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 2: But I think it will come, I promise, saying Stephen.

864
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 2: I remember my first real smartphone. It was a Samsung

865
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 2: S six Edge in twenty seventeen. My contract was six

866
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 2: hundred ninety nine Rand for one thousand minutes and one

867
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,440
Speaker 2: gig of data. That used to last me a whole month.

868
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:26,400
Speaker 2: It would roll over for another month still with around

869
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 2: four hundred meters four hundred megabytes. I used to be

870
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 2: on YouTube for the whole day, playing music directly from there.

871
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:35,439
Speaker 2: Now I use pre paid. I use a Capitec five

872
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 2: gig data for two hundred and twenty five Rand. I

873
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 2: only use it when I'm at the house. When I'm

874
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 2: outside of the house, I use it for Instagram and maps.

875
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 2: But the five gig only lasts less than a week.

876
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:48,480
Speaker 2: Quite critical of that, Yeah, I promise. I mean I

877
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:50,800
Speaker 2: find it fascinating. You do have to check what's running

878
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,399
Speaker 2: in the background. That is true, and that is something

879
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 2: that the Castle counselor made that point. You do need

880
00:45:56,719 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 2: to understand what your phone is doing. And almost all

881
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 2: of them, and particularly the androids that I know, They

882
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:05,240
Speaker 2: do have a sort of you know where your Data's

883
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 2: gone function. You to go into settings to data and

884
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 2: go from there and I'll tell you where the data

885
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,759
Speaker 2: has gone. I do find it really interesting we do

886
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 2: more and more those seem to be moving into an

887
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:17,799
Speaker 2: era where data is both cheaper and simpler to use.

888
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:20,640
Speaker 2: In a long mad last your stories, please oh seven

889
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:22,279
Speaker 2: two seven o two one seven o two.

890
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 11: The Money Show with Stephens on seven O two seven

891
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 11: o two.

892
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:30,840
Speaker 2: Well suggestions over the weekend of an idea that I

893
00:46:30,920 --> 00:46:35,759
Speaker 2: suppose was inevitable that open AI, the firm that owns Chatchipt,

894
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:38,239
Speaker 2: they want to try and get more income by taking

895
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 2: a percentage of the ideas or insights or products that

896
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 2: I've created by people who are using chat Gipt and

897
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,960
Speaker 2: Famuniency editor at my broadband dot dot today and Good Evening.

898
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:49,880
Speaker 2: I'm going to get into the philosophy of an idea

899
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 2: in a moment, but first AI obviously needs the money.

900
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:55,439
Speaker 3: They're spending a fortune at the moment.

901
00:46:56,600 --> 00:47:01,400
Speaker 13: Good Evening, absolutely, and you can see that the crunch

902
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 13: is on, because just the other week there was they'd

903
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 13: revealed that they're going to start putting ads in chat CPT,

904
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 13: so all of a sudden, we're looking at, you know,

905
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:15,440
Speaker 13: a multi pronged approach to to revenue generate revenue generation.

906
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:18,839
Speaker 13: I think ADS is far more short term. But they're

907
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 13: also kind of looking at going, how can we generate,

908
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 13: you know, a higher percentage or take a higher percentage,

909
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 13: or generate more income from a particular user who has

910
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:34,239
Speaker 13: made a lot of money off of our product, and

911
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 13: and scale that way. And I think that indicates that's

912
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:41,839
Speaker 13: a good indication of just the immense cost that has

913
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:44,920
Speaker 13: gone into building these systems and the fact that they

914
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:49,480
Speaker 13: are not even close to to recovering their their costs.

915
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:53,320
Speaker 13: This is this is an this is an industry, and

916
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:55,759
Speaker 13: a solution look really desperately looking for a business model.

917
00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 2: So what will they be asking customers for. I mean,

918
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 2: some of it that's sort of pretty I suppose easy

919
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:06,239
Speaker 2: to understand. They say, for example, if someone uses their

920
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,920
Speaker 2: models to perfect a vaccine, we should take the percentage

921
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 2: that I get. But a vaccine is something that would

922
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:15,799
Speaker 2: require a lot of modeling. A lot of ideas are

923
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 2: sort of insights that come in a kind of a flash,

924
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 2: and I don't know how you would even start to

925
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:23,920
Speaker 2: work out where the human insight began and where the

926
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:24,759
Speaker 2: machine came in.

927
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 13: Yeah, this is an interesting one and a can of

928
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 13: worm because the fact is that these large language models

929
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 13: are trained on human output. So if it wasn't for

930
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 13: the humans who came before, it wouldn't be nearly as

931
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 13: good at doing what it's doing now. And so this

932
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:47,360
Speaker 13: becomes a very circular argument because you also have humans

933
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 13: lining up saying no, but CHATCHI put needs to pay

934
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:56,280
Speaker 13: us for the stuff that we've produced that now allow

935
00:48:56,480 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 13: it to produce stuff that other people use. So yeah,

936
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 13: it's a bizarre it's a bizarre turn of events, and

937
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 13: I have no idea how anybody is going to prove

938
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:11,360
Speaker 13: anything to actually make this reality. The only way I

939
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:13,759
Speaker 13: see this moving forward is very much the same way

940
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:17,080
Speaker 13: as as copyright law and other IP law, which is

941
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 13: that it's essentially enforced to litigation.

942
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 4: Yeah.

943
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,480
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, you know, there's an old phrase that

944
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:25,160
Speaker 2: I see far only because I stand on the shoulders

945
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:26,959
Speaker 2: of giants, in other words, because of the people who've

946
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:28,279
Speaker 2: done the work before me.

947
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 3: And you could argue that.

948
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:33,560
Speaker 2: All chat GPD, all that chat GPD is doing is

949
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:36,640
Speaker 2: helping you stand on the shoulders. It's not creating the shoulders.

950
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:39,319
Speaker 2: It's not producing the work that went before you. It's

951
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 2: just helping you access it.

952
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:45,880
Speaker 13: Yes, and and the you know, they might come an

953
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 13: inflection point. You know, they're all talking about super intelligence

954
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 13: and other things that are going to come down the

955
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:56,520
Speaker 13: line and and and make these things just so much

956
00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:58,879
Speaker 13: better than they are right now, and better than any

957
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 13: human could ever hope to be. Uh, we'll see where

958
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 13: when and if that happens. But but it's it's exactly that.

959
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 13: And you know, it's not unprecedented for a tool to

960
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 13: charge a percentage of revenue as a way to to

961
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 13: to finance a freemium model, But the exact terms of

962
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:25,759
Speaker 13: how that works, like it's it's very clear cut. It's

963
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 13: based on unit sales revenue generated something like that, something

964
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 13: that's very easy to measure. And you've used their product

965
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 13: in your in yours that that you otherwise would not

966
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:39,960
Speaker 13: have been able to develop. It's very easy to measure,

967
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:44,840
Speaker 13: whereas with this it's it's extremely fuzzy. And and and

968
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:49,240
Speaker 13: you know, going you know, if somebody used chat reipt,

969
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 13: you know, for you know, they were lonely and they

970
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 13: decided to have a conversation with chat cipt at night

971
00:50:54,920 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 13: and they also happened to be a cancer researcher, and

972
00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 13: then following morning to have a breakthrough to that number

973
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 13: you get to cut.

974
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:01,799
Speaker 3: It's a.

975
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:04,279
Speaker 13: It's a can of words.

976
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:06,799
Speaker 2: The other thing that I think this might go down

977
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:09,960
Speaker 2: an even more difficult rabbit hole that's hard to believe,

978
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:16,280
Speaker 2: is whether or not chat chept is actually intelligent, because

979
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 2: one of the marks of intelligence is not just sort

980
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:22,479
Speaker 2: of learning. Any machine can do that. It's actually about

981
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:24,360
Speaker 2: whether you can have a fresh insight. To put it

982
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:28,239
Speaker 2: another way, to listen to a chat chept version of

983
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:31,120
Speaker 2: this radio program, I hope would be a lot less

984
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:34,279
Speaker 2: interesting than having a human do it. And isn't that

985
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 2: now going to get complicated because there will be some

986
00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 2: fight where someone says, there's no way that chatchept have

987
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 2: this insight because actually not intelligent. The human is intelligent,

988
00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:45,520
Speaker 2: and therefore I win in chat gpt losers.

989
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 13: Yeah, and certainly you're you're going to open yourself up

990
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:56,480
Speaker 13: to some and we're already seeing this in intellectual property law.

991
00:51:57,160 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 13: It gets in the United States in particular, but it's

992
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 13: in South Africa as well, where you know you're going

993
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:07,359
Speaker 13: to have someone lining up going So if chattypet puts

994
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:09,840
Speaker 13: up a tend and says no. But the only reason

995
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:13,520
Speaker 13: this person was able to deliver this breakthrough, whatever it

996
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:18,360
Speaker 13: might be quantum mechanics, whatever has earned somebody a billion dollars,

997
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 13: is because of our product, and therefore we deserve revenue

998
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 13: share on that. And then somebody else is going to

999
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 13: go no. But the only reason chat chipet was able

1000
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 13: to deliver that insight is because of my work. A

1001
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 13: chatchipet owes me money. It's a it's an infinite line

1002
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:40,560
Speaker 13: that only ends in depth, and even then you might

1003
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:44,960
Speaker 13: have stakes of people coming for their cut. I just

1004
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 13: don't see how it could practically work.

1005
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 4: You know.

1006
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 2: I find the whole thing around aim interesting. For the

1007
00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:53,840
Speaker 2: last two or three years, everyone's told me often on

1008
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 2: this program. You know it's going to change the world.

1009
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 2: This is what's going to happen next year. You'll be

1010
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:01,879
Speaker 2: lucky if you have a job. And yet so much

1011
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:05,160
Speaker 2: of my daily life is exactly the same. To be blunt,

1012
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:07,640
Speaker 2: and I may just you know, reveal that my middle

1013
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:08,400
Speaker 2: name is Luddite.

1014
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:08,640
Speaker 3: Heah.

1015
00:53:09,640 --> 00:53:14,880
Speaker 2: The only thing that's changed is my search answers on

1016
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:17,959
Speaker 2: my phone and on my tablet device.

1017
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:20,760
Speaker 3: Because they are actually more useful.

1018
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:23,960
Speaker 2: But other than that, I am not convinced that artificial

1019
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:25,560
Speaker 2: intelligence has changed my life at all.

1020
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:32,800
Speaker 13: Right, And this is where the height and the promise

1021
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:36,680
Speaker 13: of what a technology offers under the reality are often

1022
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:41,080
Speaker 13: very different. And I remember, to me, it's reminiscent of

1023
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:44,480
Speaker 13: the Internet, right, So those of us who were on

1024
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 13: the Internet in the early days and were really experiencing

1025
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:49,960
Speaker 13: it and really excited about it would also be quite

1026
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:53,600
Speaker 13: hyped up about the possibilities of what the Internet would offer.

1027
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 13: And I remember everyone from the BBC through to traditional

1028
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:04,759
Speaker 13: newspapers being extremely skeptical about this new fangled Internet thing

1029
00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:06,760
Speaker 13: and how much is it really going to change our lives?

1030
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 13: And the thing is kind of both were right, right.

1031
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 13: There's no doubt that the Internet for revolutionized commerce and

1032
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:24,000
Speaker 13: revolutionized communication in ways that actually people couldn't fully imagine

1033
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:27,480
Speaker 13: at the time, right. But it's also true that it

1034
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:30,760
Speaker 13: didn't do it at nearly the speed that people were predicting,

1035
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 13: or nearly the same way that people were predicting. Otherwise

1036
00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:36,680
Speaker 13: pets dot com and broadcast dot com would still be

1037
00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 13: a thing. And so I see AI playing out in

1038
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:43,600
Speaker 13: very much the same way here. There's parts of it

1039
00:54:43,840 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 13: that are going to just kind of smash smash down walls,

1040
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:52,839
Speaker 13: open doors in ways that we can't have imagined. It's

1041
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:57,239
Speaker 13: going to revolutionize things far more quickly than people have

1042
00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:00,160
Speaker 13: predicted in certain aspects, and in other aspects it's it's

1043
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:02,760
Speaker 13: going to be much slower. But the trick is predicted

1044
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 13: which one and if you can do that, you can

1045
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:08,080
Speaker 13: be a billionaire. But yeah, that's that's what that's what

1046
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:09,880
Speaker 13: my exercise.

1047
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:11,360
Speaker 2: Might just be easier to buy gold the unfamilied And

1048
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:14,839
Speaker 2: thanks very much, indeed, editor at my broadband dot to day.

1049
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:18,680
Speaker 2: Such an interesting conversation. If you have any insights, please

1050
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 2: into whether it's intelligent or not A seven two seven

1051
00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:22,080
Speaker 2: two one.

1052
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:25,719
Speaker 3: Seven o two my show business books twenty.

1053
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 2: One minutes after seven today. Well, if you want to

1054
00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:30,920
Speaker 2: think of a process that has absolutely changed the way

1055
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 2: in which you live and happened really far away but

1056
00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:36,920
Speaker 2: in your living memory, you would probably pick and have

1057
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:39,840
Speaker 2: to include certainly among them, China and the way in

1058
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:43,399
Speaker 2: which China has changed in the last thirty or forty years,

1059
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 2: and it all started with the leader Ding Zipong. Well,

1060
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 2: there's a book called ding Zipong and the Transformation of

1061
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:53,719
Speaker 2: China by Ezra Vogel. And it is the choice of

1062
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:57,720
Speaker 2: Matthew Parks, who is the parliamentary coordinator for Kasar too. Matthew,

1063
00:55:57,760 --> 00:55:59,759
Speaker 2: good evening. I don't say this often to people from

1064
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:01,400
Speaker 2: to Welcome to the money.

1065
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:04,680
Speaker 15: Show, good evening, and you should say much more often,

1066
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:09,520
Speaker 15: how that's even think too long related compliments. So that's

1067
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:11,760
Speaker 15: the first aggreevative. Rich must call us much more often.

1068
00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:16,640
Speaker 2: I thought you'd use the gap welcome. Dange is a

1069
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:20,279
Speaker 2: fascinating person. I mean literally, you can see how the

1070
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:23,080
Speaker 2: price of bicycles in South Africa has gone down over

1071
00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:25,440
Speaker 2: the last thirty years because of the things he did.

1072
00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:27,360
Speaker 3: What drew you to the book? Was it just the

1073
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:28,600
Speaker 3: historical significance?

1074
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:32,200
Speaker 15: Well, I've been I've one of my many faults that

1075
00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:34,240
Speaker 15: I have a bit of an addiction to political books,

1076
00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:36,799
Speaker 15: biographies and some of the useful ways to get an

1077
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:40,200
Speaker 15: insight into other countries who will experienced similar challenges to us,

1078
00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:42,360
Speaker 15: and how do they manage them or how do they

1079
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:45,080
Speaker 15: mismanage them. So lots of you saw lessons that it's

1080
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:47,840
Speaker 15: a bit of a light way to learn about other

1081
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:52,200
Speaker 15: people's histories. But you know, the interesting book. The interesting

1082
00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:53,760
Speaker 15: thing about this book and it has very long books,

1083
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:55,759
Speaker 15: but it's on the pages, so it's not like a

1084
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 15: light read. But it's written a very lightweight, very incredibly detailed,

1085
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:04,680
Speaker 15: incredibly researched, not biased for, biased against, just kind of

1086
00:57:04,719 --> 00:57:08,960
Speaker 15: giving an objective view. And you know Dang went. You know,

1087
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 15: when he took over in China, I mean, China was

1088
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:13,560
Speaker 15: a basket case. They had starvation set in the nineteen

1089
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:18,080
Speaker 15: seventies famine, you know, winter cares and to be fair

1090
00:57:18,120 --> 00:57:20,360
Speaker 15: to the Chinese and Maw you know, then he hedited

1091
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:22,880
Speaker 15: a dysfunction of a former empire which had gone through

1092
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 15: a central humidation of colonialism along the coast of Sadis Shanghai,

1093
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:30,480
Speaker 15: et cetera by the Europeans Japanese occupation during World War two,

1094
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:33,000
Speaker 15: et cetera. But really, you know, I think he is

1095
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 15: down the road after people robber was found it it

1096
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:37,880
Speaker 15: was a basket case still and he had starvation, purages

1097
00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:41,600
Speaker 15: of leadership, chaos, et cetera, and dying himself struggled. He

1098
00:57:41,760 --> 00:57:44,640
Speaker 15: was banished to some village and too exile. His son,

1099
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:48,280
Speaker 15: I think, was thrown out of his part in Bulcany

1100
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:52,120
Speaker 15: and paralyzed. But he came back, obviously with sted all

1101
00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:55,440
Speaker 15: those purges, and he basically took China and the Communist

1102
00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:57,920
Speaker 15: Party by the scuff of the neck and modernized them.

1103
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:01,560
Speaker 15: So you've gone from the seventh a country of famine

1104
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:05,919
Speaker 15: to today's leading global eclogic power, the superhouse of the world,

1105
00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:08,040
Speaker 15: you know, And there's so many interesting lessons in it

1106
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:10,400
Speaker 15: that to show you how you can change it.

1107
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:10,600
Speaker 4: You know.

1108
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:14,560
Speaker 15: At one stage he sent his party officials to go

1109
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:19,440
Speaker 15: to France, to Japan, to England at such a Germany

1110
00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:23,320
Speaker 15: to learn some technology of one industrialized economies. Some might

1111
00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:26,120
Speaker 15: complaint they stalled, but I learned from it. Now China

1112
00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:28,520
Speaker 15: is a cutting edge, as you say, of technology.

1113
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:31,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, if I may, I'm sorry to introject. So, I mean,

1114
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:33,560
Speaker 2: one of the things that I was interested in, and

1115
00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:36,040
Speaker 2: I know very little about that period, is he had

1116
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:37,240
Speaker 2: to take over from Mao.

1117
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 3: Mao had had.

1118
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:42,919
Speaker 2: Led the cultural revolution and millions of people in China

1119
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 2: carried his little Red book of Mao sayings, for example,

1120
00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:47,320
Speaker 2: so it made it kind of in his own image,

1121
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:50,960
Speaker 2: and he now had to take over that and that

1122
00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:53,440
Speaker 2: must have been a very difficult thing to do. I mean,

1123
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:55,000
Speaker 2: I was trying to think of the closest thing I

1124
00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:57,160
Speaker 2: could think of to year. I mean, you could say

1125
00:58:57,240 --> 00:58:59,320
Speaker 2: Ramapaus are taking over the A and C after the

1126
00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:02,280
Speaker 2: been sort of you know, zoomerized, but that doesn't even

1127
00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:03,280
Speaker 2: come close.

1128
00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:05,720
Speaker 3: How would you do that. I mean, you could say

1129
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:08,080
Speaker 3: christ chiev after taking over from Stalin too.

1130
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:11,440
Speaker 15: But it was and the fact that he personally had suffered.

1131
00:59:11,680 --> 00:59:14,760
Speaker 15: Even Chijingping himself had been banished because of his father

1132
00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:16,760
Speaker 15: when he was a teenager, sent to go live in

1133
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:19,640
Speaker 15: the villages, et cetera. But I showed you how China

1134
00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:22,560
Speaker 15: kind of managed those things anyone who took over. Initially

1135
00:59:23,080 --> 00:59:25,520
Speaker 15: before it took over, there a gang of four Malsitung's

1136
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:29,400
Speaker 15: widow and three other kind of hardliners. When Dang managed

1137
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:33,960
Speaker 15: to kind of Metisi manusfactions and asked them and then

1138
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:35,920
Speaker 15: released such kind of film in the path of re law,

1139
00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:39,080
Speaker 15: it wasn't easy because people were afraid. People had been used,

1140
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:40,680
Speaker 15: you know for thirty years. This is the way we

1141
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:43,120
Speaker 15: do things, and if you don't like it, well those

1142
00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:45,080
Speaker 15: banishment are waiting for you at best, you know, if

1143
00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:48,040
Speaker 15: you're lucky. And he managed to there was a lot

1144
00:59:48,080 --> 00:59:50,680
Speaker 15: of fear. I mean it. There was an interesting section

1145
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:53,480
Speaker 15: where he phoned Jimmy Carter, who was the US childudent

1146
00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:55,960
Speaker 15: in the seventies, and said to Carter, you would like

1147
00:59:56,000 --> 00:59:59,280
Speaker 15: to send some Chinese students US University to learn from

1148
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:02,520
Speaker 15: the US it's And Carter said, sure, how many spaces

1149
01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:02,880
Speaker 15: do you want?

1150
01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:03,440
Speaker 3: A thousand?

1151
01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:04,880
Speaker 15: And Dank said now one ten thousand.

1152
01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:07,480
Speaker 3: Sure, and the party.

1153
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:09,680
Speaker 15: Commerce in China, you know a panicky Well, all these

1154
01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:11,880
Speaker 15: students come back and Dank said, don't worry. If half

1155
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:14,680
Speaker 15: of them come back, that's half we didn't have yesterday.

1156
01:00:15,080 --> 01:00:17,480
Speaker 15: The other half will eventually come back. And it also

1157
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:20,439
Speaker 15: featured to how he reached out to the Chinese die sport,

1158
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:22,920
Speaker 15: which is obviously very significant, you know beat in Malaysia

1159
01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:26,560
Speaker 15: or Singapore, the US, and how he got them to

1160
01:00:26,680 --> 01:00:29,360
Speaker 15: kind of reinvest in their home villages, helped to develop

1161
01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:31,880
Speaker 15: their villages, something which I think which we've raised with

1162
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:34,120
Speaker 15: the President on past that we should be tapping into

1163
01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:37,520
Speaker 15: the South African diesporta beat it in Dubai or London,

1164
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:42,360
Speaker 15: Australia wherever to come, plow back, come home for holidays.

1165
01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:46,680
Speaker 15: That's what India done successfully. So the lots of useful lessons.

1166
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:50,080
Speaker 2: And I mean things for our economy. Now, I mean

1167
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:53,840
Speaker 2: the great lesson of den was was a liberalization, just

1168
01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:56,200
Speaker 2: a reminder of who you work for, Matthew, because you're

1169
01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:58,840
Speaker 2: not always a favor of, you know, making things easier

1170
01:00:58,880 --> 01:00:59,760
Speaker 2: at all business when.

1171
01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:01,520
Speaker 3: It came salaries in labor laws.

1172
01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:03,680
Speaker 2: But what do you think, what do you think we

1173
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:05,560
Speaker 2: would learn from Deng what would be one of the

1174
01:01:05,680 --> 01:01:06,800
Speaker 2: lessons for our economy?

1175
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:10,440
Speaker 15: And well, here's a famous quote that says, don't word

1176
01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:12,120
Speaker 15: if the cat is black or white, as long as

1177
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:15,480
Speaker 15: it catches the mice. But even within that, so he

1178
01:01:15,520 --> 01:01:19,560
Speaker 15: didn't abandon socialism. He he modernized it, He made it,

1179
01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:22,360
Speaker 15: he formed it to address that its failures and how

1180
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:25,200
Speaker 15: to implement it. He learned from the best of capitalism,

1181
01:01:25,240 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 15: but avoided the worst. But it didn't abandon principle that

1182
01:01:28,120 --> 01:01:30,840
Speaker 15: I think his principles was he must left out of poverty.

1183
01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:33,760
Speaker 15: They must have a better life. They're not living for

1184
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:36,040
Speaker 15: fancast logans. They want to see their lives improving. They

1185
01:01:36,080 --> 01:01:39,640
Speaker 15: want to see jobs, education for their kids, healthcare at

1186
01:01:39,680 --> 01:01:42,640
Speaker 15: decent house, you know, decent pension and so forth.

1187
01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:43,480
Speaker 11: You know.

1188
01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:46,920
Speaker 15: The United Nations or sites China and Vietnam as a

1189
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:49,240
Speaker 15: similar path, almost being the kind of which have lifted

1190
01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:51,640
Speaker 15: the most of out of poverty in a very short

1191
01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:53,760
Speaker 15: space of time. You know, they really have improved people's

1192
01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:57,040
Speaker 15: life in a material way, but in a sustainable way too,

1193
01:01:57,120 --> 01:02:00,960
Speaker 15: because China's economy is five is growing. If they get

1194
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:04,000
Speaker 15: five percent growth in a year, that's a horror for

1195
01:02:04,080 --> 01:02:06,800
Speaker 15: them that they used to seven eight percent. And also

1196
01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:10,320
Speaker 15: I think he taught the party, which I think in

1197
01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:13,920
Speaker 15: South Africa, you know there there's alliance we could learn

1198
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:16,560
Speaker 15: a lot from to be afraid of society. So not

1199
01:02:16,680 --> 01:02:19,200
Speaker 15: to be complaisant, to arrogant because you're on power, but

1200
01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:21,520
Speaker 15: to be scared of losing support of society. When you

1201
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:25,200
Speaker 15: mess up on minister Steel, you should act quickly, you know,

1202
01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:27,640
Speaker 15: send them to prison or remove them whatever story is

1203
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:30,720
Speaker 15: as as oppose to us where we have endless discussions

1204
01:02:30,760 --> 01:02:33,840
Speaker 15: and commissions and we'll think about it, and they don't

1205
01:02:33,880 --> 01:02:38,160
Speaker 15: do much. So I think that nimbleness has really st China. Well,

1206
01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:40,640
Speaker 15: he did also make a change to put in place

1207
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:42,760
Speaker 15: you know, you should have two terms in office and

1208
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:47,000
Speaker 15: then you should leave. Well that actually came just after

1209
01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:48,680
Speaker 15: he left, and I think that's kind of come back

1210
01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:50,800
Speaker 15: with hiding thing. I think that is one mistake that

1211
01:02:50,840 --> 01:02:54,000
Speaker 15: they should be considered. But you know, so many friends

1212
01:02:54,080 --> 01:02:57,200
Speaker 15: they've learned anyone the Civic Union went through. It's you know,

1213
01:02:57,320 --> 01:03:00,800
Speaker 15: perstual going gladsnost. The Chinese don't from the mistakes of

1214
01:03:00,840 --> 01:03:03,360
Speaker 15: the Soviets that yes it was sick the economy, but

1215
01:03:03,440 --> 01:03:06,880
Speaker 15: don't lose the state and don't a little bit liter

1216
01:03:07,240 --> 01:03:08,960
Speaker 15: tour the country or that's what the law.

1217
01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:10,800
Speaker 3: Matthew from Matthew, thank you so much.

1218
01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:14,919
Speaker 2: Matthew Parks, the Parliamentary Cost Coordinator for KASATU. The book

1219
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:18,200
Speaker 2: is called ding Zipong and the Transformation of China. It's

1220
01:03:18,240 --> 01:03:20,760
Speaker 2: by Ezra Vogel. I should have said Isra Vogel is

1221
01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:24,080
Speaker 2: the author of ding Zia Pung and the Transformation of China.

1222
01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:24,920
Speaker 2: Your business book this.

1223
01:03:25,000 --> 01:03:28,680
Speaker 11: Week How Money Show How I Make my money?

1224
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:31,280
Speaker 2: Twenty three minutes now to eight the time. And one

1225
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:33,480
Speaker 2: of the things that South Africa is blessed with is

1226
01:03:33,560 --> 01:03:36,479
Speaker 2: people who've lived the most extraordinary lives. And they start

1227
01:03:36,520 --> 01:03:39,200
Speaker 2: in one place and they move in another direction, and

1228
01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:42,200
Speaker 2: then they do something completely different to move in another direction.

1229
01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:46,680
Speaker 2: And I think that description suits Nozeport marketo Vanden Bracht.

1230
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:50,120
Speaker 2: She is the founder of Chocolate Tribe, and she joins

1231
01:03:50,160 --> 01:03:53,240
Speaker 2: me on the radio now Nopp Good evening. It's a

1232
01:03:53,280 --> 01:03:55,240
Speaker 2: fascinating story. You have to till and thank you so

1233
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:57,200
Speaker 2: much for agreeing to share it with us tonight on

1234
01:03:57,280 --> 01:03:58,400
Speaker 2: how I Make My Money.

1235
01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:03,200
Speaker 7: Pleasure. Good evening to you and to your listeners, and

1236
01:04:03,360 --> 01:04:06,760
Speaker 7: thank you so much for having me. Sure, yeah, yeah,

1237
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:09,200
Speaker 7: I thank you so much that you also find it,

1238
01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:14,120
Speaker 7: you know, a wonderful story, because as you know, I

1239
01:04:14,280 --> 01:04:17,880
Speaker 7: started off as an attorney in practice and actually a

1240
01:04:18,000 --> 01:04:24,000
Speaker 7: high end law firm, and in twenty fourteen I decided

1241
01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:30,080
Speaker 7: to take a shot left and go into the creative industry.

1242
01:04:30,240 --> 01:04:32,400
Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean you started.

1243
01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:35,560
Speaker 2: If I've understood your history correctly, you actually grew up

1244
01:04:35,680 --> 01:04:38,080
Speaker 2: mostly in Soweto, which which part of Soweto was that

1245
01:04:39,120 --> 01:04:40,000
Speaker 2: in Deep Clue.

1246
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:45,560
Speaker 7: Fin Zone five And yeah, a very vibrant childhood. And

1247
01:04:45,720 --> 01:04:49,240
Speaker 7: I mean I grew up in the seventies eighties and

1248
01:04:49,560 --> 01:04:52,280
Speaker 7: the hive of you know, a lot of fun, tension

1249
01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:57,240
Speaker 7: and strives in our country. And yeah, when I was

1250
01:04:57,320 --> 01:05:01,560
Speaker 7: ten years old, we left the country actually, and so

1251
01:05:02,080 --> 01:05:05,000
Speaker 7: when I was eighteen, we came back and I went

1252
01:05:05,080 --> 01:05:09,080
Speaker 7: to this so For me, there's a very you know,

1253
01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:13,960
Speaker 7: strong bond with Soweto and Johannesburg in particular, I remember

1254
01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:16,919
Speaker 7: Joe Bick as you know the City of Gold. Even

1255
01:05:17,000 --> 01:05:19,120
Speaker 7: with all the sort of like tensions that were happening,

1256
01:05:19,360 --> 01:05:21,880
Speaker 7: I always kind of view it as if, you know,

1257
01:05:22,360 --> 01:05:27,960
Speaker 7: absolute amazing place, if its potential is fully realized in

1258
01:05:28,080 --> 01:05:28,760
Speaker 7: different ways.

1259
01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:31,880
Speaker 2: So yeah, no, sure, I mean there's something about the vibe.

1260
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:34,800
Speaker 2: I think that Cape Town frankly, and we're broadcast in

1261
01:05:34,960 --> 01:05:36,840
Speaker 2: Cape Town as well tonight, of course, So I say

1262
01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:38,560
Speaker 2: this as loudly.

1263
01:05:38,320 --> 01:05:40,040
Speaker 3: As I can that Cape to off it just doesn't

1264
01:05:40,040 --> 01:05:41,720
Speaker 3: seem to have You.

1265
01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:43,760
Speaker 2: Didn't just stop with an LB. I mean you are

1266
01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:46,640
Speaker 2: passionate enough about law to do a master's. I mean

1267
01:05:46,720 --> 01:05:49,600
Speaker 2: that's that's a lot of passion, a.

1268
01:05:49,640 --> 01:05:52,040
Speaker 7: Lot of passion. I mean I often tell people the

1269
01:05:52,120 --> 01:05:55,400
Speaker 7: story that for me there was a natural connection between

1270
01:05:56,480 --> 01:06:00,840
Speaker 7: law and film or creativity. I mean one of my

1271
01:06:01,200 --> 01:06:04,840
Speaker 7: colleagues once said, you know, lawyers are failed actors, you know,

1272
01:06:05,160 --> 01:06:10,000
Speaker 7: So I did. I actually went to Birthburg College, University

1273
01:06:10,080 --> 01:06:12,720
Speaker 7: of London to do a master's in law, and while

1274
01:06:12,760 --> 01:06:17,040
Speaker 7: I was there there was actually an elective called Laws

1275
01:06:17,160 --> 01:06:20,800
Speaker 7: Moving Image and it was really about how, you know,

1276
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:25,320
Speaker 7: film can move people, and you know, can change laws

1277
01:06:25,440 --> 01:06:29,080
Speaker 7: and can change people's minds and hearts. So I think

1278
01:06:29,160 --> 01:06:31,560
Speaker 7: it was that moment when the penny drops, that there's

1279
01:06:31,560 --> 01:06:35,640
Speaker 7: a possibility to kind of you know, milanj or collect

1280
01:06:35,800 --> 01:06:39,960
Speaker 7: all my my my, you know, aspirations and passions. And

1281
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:42,880
Speaker 7: I was also married to, or still a marriage to

1282
01:06:43,080 --> 01:06:46,400
Speaker 7: a you know, an artist, so there was always this

1283
01:06:46,680 --> 01:06:50,920
Speaker 7: deep love and kind of like fascination with the artistic world.

1284
01:06:52,240 --> 01:06:55,240
Speaker 7: And so for me it was an easy I don't

1285
01:06:55,280 --> 01:06:57,120
Speaker 7: want to call it a transition because I feel like

1286
01:06:57,200 --> 01:06:59,800
Speaker 7: I still live in both worlds. I'm still my com

1287
01:07:00,080 --> 01:07:02,520
Speaker 7: and his lawyer, and I, you know, do all the

1288
01:07:03,040 --> 01:07:06,320
Speaker 7: you know, contractual work and at the same time, you know,

1289
01:07:06,520 --> 01:07:10,480
Speaker 7: feast on all the wonder and joy of being in

1290
01:07:10,600 --> 01:07:13,240
Speaker 7: a very you know, vibrant creative space.

1291
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:16,560
Speaker 2: So what you do now is tructor tribe. And I

1292
01:07:16,640 --> 01:07:18,320
Speaker 2: was trying to think of the best way to explain it.

1293
01:07:18,400 --> 01:07:22,760
Speaker 2: But you do you make sort of parts of movies.

1294
01:07:22,880 --> 01:07:24,680
Speaker 2: Would that be the right way to describe it?

1295
01:07:24,840 --> 01:07:25,000
Speaker 7: You know?

1296
01:07:25,200 --> 01:07:28,200
Speaker 2: The I don't know, do we still use the phrase

1297
01:07:28,280 --> 01:07:32,120
Speaker 2: c GI or is that a little twentieth century if

1298
01:07:32,240 --> 01:07:35,560
Speaker 2: you sort of put together some of the really complicated

1299
01:07:35,640 --> 01:07:36,520
Speaker 2: technical parts.

1300
01:07:37,160 --> 01:07:37,440
Speaker 15: True.

1301
01:07:37,640 --> 01:07:42,360
Speaker 7: True, I mean like that's that's a great, you know explanation.

1302
01:07:42,520 --> 01:07:46,440
Speaker 7: I mean, we create assets to the service of the story.

1303
01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:49,760
Speaker 7: The thing with us in the VFX and even in

1304
01:07:49,840 --> 01:07:54,040
Speaker 7: the animation space, we really want to create mesmerizing worlds

1305
01:07:54,200 --> 01:07:58,000
Speaker 7: and characters that push the story forward and just the

1306
01:07:58,160 --> 01:08:01,680
Speaker 7: mess you know, audin into that. I mean, if you

1307
01:08:01,760 --> 01:08:06,080
Speaker 7: imagine the Avatars, the Lord of the Rings, and I

1308
01:08:06,160 --> 01:08:10,040
Speaker 7: mean even regular stories. The point is how can we

1309
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:13,520
Speaker 7: capture your mind and heart as we tell the story.

1310
01:08:14,000 --> 01:08:18,800
Speaker 7: So the effects is really the art and science of,

1311
01:08:19,920 --> 01:08:24,000
Speaker 7: you know, capturing the audience in a fantastical way in

1312
01:08:24,120 --> 01:08:27,320
Speaker 7: a way that you know, imagination can travel as far

1313
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:29,040
Speaker 7: and as wide as possible.

1314
01:08:29,240 --> 01:08:32,640
Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean it is amazing how big that is.

1315
01:08:33,280 --> 01:08:36,040
Speaker 2: Over the holiday season, for various reasons, I found myself

1316
01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:41,360
Speaker 2: rewatching the Shrek series and enjoying them as much as

1317
01:08:41,479 --> 01:08:44,680
Speaker 2: someone on the wrong side of fifty as my children were.

1318
01:08:44,720 --> 01:08:47,000
Speaker 2: And look, we were all watching them again, we've all

1319
01:08:47,040 --> 01:08:51,360
Speaker 2: seen them before. But there's something about animation. There's a

1320
01:08:51,439 --> 01:08:53,840
Speaker 2: K Pop Demon Hunters at the moment, which is really

1321
01:08:54,080 --> 01:08:57,160
Speaker 2: just caught the imaginations and I'm afraid to say the

1322
01:08:57,240 --> 01:09:02,799
Speaker 2: playlists of so many people. It's really quite a powerful medium.

1323
01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:09,040
Speaker 7: Absolutely absolutely, and I think for me why it's so powerful,

1324
01:09:09,120 --> 01:09:13,920
Speaker 7: particularly at this time of our lives in South Africa

1325
01:09:14,000 --> 01:09:16,800
Speaker 7: and in Africa, is the fact that, you know, for

1326
01:09:16,920 --> 01:09:21,240
Speaker 7: the first time, it feels that our stories really really matter,

1327
01:09:21,439 --> 01:09:25,000
Speaker 7: and the global stage is ready to hear them and

1328
01:09:25,479 --> 01:09:28,120
Speaker 7: is open to, you know, getting to know us through

1329
01:09:28,200 --> 01:09:33,640
Speaker 7: that you know method of storytelling, and I mean what

1330
01:09:33,840 --> 01:09:36,040
Speaker 7: it's done. As much as you might think you're on

1331
01:09:36,120 --> 01:09:38,599
Speaker 7: the wrong side of fifty, I think all of us

1332
01:09:39,160 --> 01:09:43,439
Speaker 7: are children, you know, and we should always embrace that

1333
01:09:43,560 --> 01:09:47,920
Speaker 7: sense of wonder and that sense of no curiosity. So

1334
01:09:48,439 --> 01:09:52,920
Speaker 7: I definitely think we are at a beautiful time in

1335
01:09:53,040 --> 01:09:56,320
Speaker 7: terms of creativity, where there's an openness. It's no longer

1336
01:09:56,400 --> 01:09:58,800
Speaker 7: seen as you know, like creativity was often seen like

1337
01:09:58,880 --> 01:10:01,599
Speaker 7: this little sort of two secret. You couldn't really openly

1338
01:10:01,680 --> 01:10:04,320
Speaker 7: come out and say you're an artist or a creative.

1339
01:10:04,400 --> 01:10:06,720
Speaker 7: People just thought you were crazy and you didn't want

1340
01:10:06,760 --> 01:10:09,880
Speaker 7: to actually take on a proper job and do what

1341
01:10:10,080 --> 01:10:14,040
Speaker 7: everybody else was you know, doing, which is being you know,

1342
01:10:14,240 --> 01:10:16,560
Speaker 7: a grown up in a sense. So I think we

1343
01:10:16,680 --> 01:10:20,920
Speaker 7: are at a golden age of creativity. And what I

1344
01:10:20,920 --> 01:10:23,240
Speaker 7: would like to actually see, especially from an African and

1345
01:10:23,320 --> 01:10:28,120
Speaker 7: a sal Aftan perspective, is us telling those mesmerizing stories,

1346
01:10:28,160 --> 01:10:31,200
Speaker 7: those stories that humanize us, but that also allows us

1347
01:10:31,640 --> 01:10:38,720
Speaker 7: to fly and just explore our imagination beyond stories of

1348
01:10:39,080 --> 01:10:45,720
Speaker 7: struggle and stories of you know, colonization. Those stories matter absolutely,

1349
01:10:46,080 --> 01:10:49,160
Speaker 7: and they're important for us to tell them, but I

1350
01:10:49,240 --> 01:10:51,599
Speaker 7: think what's also important is for us to be able

1351
01:10:51,680 --> 01:10:57,960
Speaker 7: to open up our aperture for a fantastical method of storytelling.

1352
01:10:59,320 --> 01:11:03,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, a way, what happened in the past matters, but

1353
01:11:03,560 --> 01:11:07,120
Speaker 2: our dreams matter too, and I don't know if we spend.

1354
01:11:08,840 --> 01:11:12,360
Speaker 7: It is and that's it, and that's really what for me,

1355
01:11:12,680 --> 01:11:16,800
Speaker 7: animation and VFX is about. It's about you exploring those

1356
01:11:17,000 --> 01:11:20,760
Speaker 7: recesses that have been closed off because a lot of

1357
01:11:20,880 --> 01:11:23,960
Speaker 7: us grew up in places where you know, it's bread

1358
01:11:24,040 --> 01:11:28,040
Speaker 7: and butter issues and that kind of you know, is

1359
01:11:28,240 --> 01:11:31,240
Speaker 7: reflected on the kind of stories that we tell. And

1360
01:11:31,560 --> 01:11:35,679
Speaker 7: I reiterate those stories do matter, but there should also

1361
01:11:35,760 --> 01:11:39,640
Speaker 7: be a widening of our perspective and ability to explore

1362
01:11:39,960 --> 01:11:43,400
Speaker 7: and go to you know, spaces. You always tell people

1363
01:11:43,479 --> 01:11:46,599
Speaker 7: that the thing about animation and VFX. Is it allows

1364
01:11:46,680 --> 01:11:51,759
Speaker 7: you to get into an intergalactical space, you know, spaces

1365
01:11:51,840 --> 01:11:54,760
Speaker 7: that we never knew existed, and now we can create

1366
01:11:54,840 --> 01:11:57,920
Speaker 7: those worlds. Now we can dream and we can actually

1367
01:11:58,040 --> 01:12:01,200
Speaker 7: see them in reality. And that's really important for any

1368
01:12:01,280 --> 01:12:04,519
Speaker 7: human imagination to be able to have that level of freedom.

1369
01:12:05,640 --> 01:12:10,440
Speaker 3: And so yeah, yeah, that just the transition.

1370
01:12:10,600 --> 01:12:14,360
Speaker 2: So you're a lawyer, you've got a master's in law

1371
01:12:14,960 --> 01:12:19,479
Speaker 2: and your husband, your partners working in the visual space,

1372
01:12:20,479 --> 01:12:25,160
Speaker 2: in the creative space. Did it happen quickly? Was it

1373
01:12:25,479 --> 01:12:28,240
Speaker 2: was there one conversation. Did it happen over six months?

1374
01:12:28,680 --> 01:12:30,479
Speaker 2: Was it a period of a decade that made you

1375
01:12:30,720 --> 01:12:33,439
Speaker 2: actually change direction in this way and want to work

1376
01:12:33,520 --> 01:12:33,800
Speaker 2: with him?

1377
01:12:35,560 --> 01:12:39,200
Speaker 7: If I'm being one hundred percent, I never really thought

1378
01:12:39,280 --> 01:12:44,240
Speaker 7: of working with Rob. I always thought, you know, quite

1379
01:12:44,600 --> 01:12:49,280
Speaker 7: like his sort of Dutch background, very you know, formulaic,

1380
01:12:50,120 --> 01:12:52,280
Speaker 7: and so for me, I'm like, oh, yeah, you know,

1381
01:12:52,439 --> 01:12:55,280
Speaker 7: this is a little bit and at the same time

1382
01:12:55,640 --> 01:12:59,960
Speaker 7: very creative. And so it was a series of converse

1383
01:13:00,080 --> 01:13:03,160
Speaker 7: fation and I think there was also a constellation of

1384
01:13:03,240 --> 01:13:06,799
Speaker 7: stars in terms of where we were in our life

1385
01:13:07,720 --> 01:13:10,799
Speaker 7: as a couple. We had just returned to South Africa,

1386
01:13:11,240 --> 01:13:13,559
Speaker 7: and we'd had our third child and we were trying

1387
01:13:13,640 --> 01:13:17,120
Speaker 7: to think how do we go beyond, you know, in

1388
01:13:17,200 --> 01:13:22,200
Speaker 7: terms of our dreams and aspiration, and he was transitioning

1389
01:13:22,520 --> 01:13:25,080
Speaker 7: in the company that he was at and I was

1390
01:13:25,160 --> 01:13:28,719
Speaker 7: going through I guess some level of you know, crisis

1391
01:13:28,800 --> 01:13:31,120
Speaker 7: in terms of I wanted to be more than just

1392
01:13:31,240 --> 01:13:35,240
Speaker 7: a lawyer. I absolutely love being a lawyer and what

1393
01:13:35,400 --> 01:13:38,120
Speaker 7: it's done for me, and I'm very appreciative of all

1394
01:13:38,200 --> 01:13:41,400
Speaker 7: the people along the way. However, I wanted something bigger,

1395
01:13:41,560 --> 01:13:44,240
Speaker 7: and so we set for you know, months and months.

1396
01:13:45,040 --> 01:13:48,639
Speaker 7: I can openly say there were nights and days where

1397
01:13:48,840 --> 01:13:53,160
Speaker 7: we ate tinted fish and you know, because we were

1398
01:13:53,240 --> 01:13:57,440
Speaker 7: building this thing together. So it was a series of conversations.

1399
01:13:57,479 --> 01:14:02,240
Speaker 7: It was a lot of sweat and you know, discomfort

1400
01:14:02,439 --> 01:14:06,960
Speaker 7: because we were not sure whether we were crazy or

1401
01:14:07,400 --> 01:14:10,799
Speaker 7: you know, going to you know, do something that was amazing.

1402
01:14:10,960 --> 01:14:14,400
Speaker 7: So I'm very grateful that it has, twelve years later,

1403
01:14:14,920 --> 01:14:21,080
Speaker 7: materialized into this wonderful community of artists, and you know,

1404
01:14:21,280 --> 01:14:26,639
Speaker 7: it's also changed how you know, African VFX and animation

1405
01:14:26,880 --> 01:14:30,280
Speaker 7: is seen. So yeah, I'm incredibly proud to be a

1406
01:14:30,360 --> 01:14:35,880
Speaker 7: couple working together and having created an amazing thing such

1407
01:14:35,920 --> 01:14:38,920
Speaker 7: as a chocolate tribe. We see it as our fourth child.

1408
01:14:39,680 --> 01:14:43,000
Speaker 2: So yeah, I've got so many questions about how the

1409
01:14:43,040 --> 01:14:45,360
Speaker 2: industry has changed in those twelve years. We're going to

1410
01:14:45,400 --> 01:14:49,000
Speaker 2: come to that in a second. Nocipo makto Vandenbracht is

1411
01:14:49,560 --> 01:14:52,040
Speaker 2: telling you about her career on How I Make My

1412
01:14:52,160 --> 01:14:54,519
Speaker 2: Money on The Money Show eleven minutes state.

1413
01:14:54,960 --> 01:14:57,439
Speaker 14: The Money Show with Stephen Curtis is brought to you

1414
01:14:57,680 --> 01:15:01,120
Speaker 14: by abs A civ A PanAm. Get back invested in

1415
01:15:01,240 --> 01:15:04,639
Speaker 14: your story and the potential it can unlock because your

1416
01:15:04,720 --> 01:15:05,960
Speaker 14: story matters.

1417
01:15:06,400 --> 01:15:07,880
Speaker 3: How does the rest fsp.

1418
01:15:09,360 --> 01:15:10,200
Speaker 11: How many show?

1419
01:15:10,640 --> 01:15:12,160
Speaker 1: How I Make My Money?

1420
01:15:12,439 --> 01:15:14,800
Speaker 2: Nine minutes to eight on The Money Show Speaking to

1421
01:15:16,120 --> 01:15:20,600
Speaker 2: Funden Brachi, founder of Chocolate Tribe No Sipul. You've been

1422
01:15:20,680 --> 01:15:24,519
Speaker 2: running the studio for twelve years and the technology behind

1423
01:15:24,680 --> 01:15:29,639
Speaker 2: what you do has changed immensely in that time. What's

1424
01:15:29,720 --> 01:15:31,600
Speaker 2: it been like to sort of keep up because the

1425
01:15:31,800 --> 01:15:35,920
Speaker 2: image that you can create, the imagination that you can

1426
01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:41,120
Speaker 2: give life to, has changed dramatically, and you really do

1427
01:15:41,360 --> 01:15:43,040
Speaker 2: have to be on a par with everyone else in

1428
01:15:43,120 --> 01:15:43,599
Speaker 2: the industry.

1429
01:15:44,520 --> 01:15:48,880
Speaker 7: Absolutely. I mean, I think right now the sort of

1430
01:15:49,120 --> 01:15:53,479
Speaker 7: biggest and most topical change is in relation to AI

1431
01:15:55,439 --> 01:15:59,439
Speaker 7: and real time rendering. I mean we have to sort

1432
01:15:59,439 --> 01:16:02,640
Speaker 7: of like, is it back to the fact that you know,

1433
01:16:03,640 --> 01:16:08,960
Speaker 7: the streaming revolution that happened from like twenty.

1434
01:16:08,800 --> 01:16:09,439
Speaker 13: Twelve to.

1435
01:16:11,400 --> 01:16:16,960
Speaker 7: Now has kind of you know catapulted you know, the

1436
01:16:17,240 --> 01:16:20,600
Speaker 7: sort of like tastes of audience to from TV to

1437
01:16:21,040 --> 01:16:25,680
Speaker 7: feature film and how we are able to create you know,

1438
01:16:25,840 --> 01:16:30,560
Speaker 7: a lot more high end VFX because when it was

1439
01:16:30,680 --> 01:16:33,640
Speaker 7: still TV, you know that there wasn't much of a

1440
01:16:33,760 --> 01:16:37,560
Speaker 7: demand for high end VFX, and so the technique and

1441
01:16:38,000 --> 01:16:43,800
Speaker 7: the you know, the sort of like requirements were of

1442
01:16:44,520 --> 01:16:49,600
Speaker 7: a lower quality. But now because even episodics on the

1443
01:16:49,760 --> 01:16:52,760
Speaker 7: likes of Netflix have to be of higher quality, that

1444
01:16:53,080 --> 01:16:55,840
Speaker 7: meant that there's a lot of investment in terms of

1445
01:16:56,360 --> 01:17:01,799
Speaker 7: you know, the technical requirements, but also software and hardware.

1446
01:17:02,320 --> 01:17:08,519
Speaker 7: And then the most sort of the greatest movement now

1447
01:17:08,680 --> 01:17:12,799
Speaker 7: is in relation to AI and how do we render

1448
01:17:13,240 --> 01:17:18,040
Speaker 7: images in real time and forto realistically so that when

1449
01:17:18,080 --> 01:17:20,840
Speaker 7: you look at it, you know, you cannot tell which

1450
01:17:20,960 --> 01:17:24,840
Speaker 7: is real and which is you know, created by AI

1451
01:17:25,240 --> 01:17:28,120
Speaker 7: or even by you know, a human hand. So I

1452
01:17:28,200 --> 01:17:32,160
Speaker 7: think that's where we are, and as you know, this

1453
01:17:32,320 --> 01:17:36,519
Speaker 7: has kind of like created a fiority of conversations from

1454
01:17:36,680 --> 01:17:43,320
Speaker 7: ethical conversations to you know, employment and you know security

1455
01:17:44,160 --> 01:17:47,400
Speaker 7: and all of that. So there's been a leap. I

1456
01:17:47,520 --> 01:17:49,720
Speaker 7: think the film industry is one of those industries that

1457
01:17:49,800 --> 01:17:53,960
Speaker 7: are often undermined in terms of innovation, and people don't

1458
01:17:54,040 --> 01:17:58,160
Speaker 7: understand that there's such a great movement within a short

1459
01:17:58,200 --> 01:18:02,960
Speaker 7: space of time that now even the likes of you know,

1460
01:18:03,200 --> 01:18:06,080
Speaker 7: James Cameron, when they are filming something, they can actually

1461
01:18:06,160 --> 01:18:10,800
Speaker 7: see the VFX live on their cameras. Whereas before you

1462
01:18:10,840 --> 01:18:14,600
Speaker 7: would then film something, hand over the plates to the

1463
01:18:14,680 --> 01:18:17,360
Speaker 7: post production team and they'd have to do what they

1464
01:18:17,479 --> 01:18:20,040
Speaker 7: need to do from the VFX and editing. But now

1465
01:18:20,120 --> 01:18:23,879
Speaker 7: there's like real time rendering where you see what's happening

1466
01:18:24,200 --> 01:18:27,280
Speaker 7: almost you know, close to what the audience will be

1467
01:18:27,360 --> 01:18:28,160
Speaker 7: seeing on screen.

1468
01:18:28,400 --> 01:18:31,799
Speaker 2: This is a strange question, but I mean we're probably

1469
01:18:32,000 --> 01:18:34,320
Speaker 2: quite close to Niro where anyone with a big Apple

1470
01:18:34,400 --> 01:18:38,360
Speaker 2: laptop can create a very very high quality animation movie

1471
01:18:38,439 --> 01:18:39,679
Speaker 2: and sort of send it to Netflix.

1472
01:18:39,760 --> 01:18:43,000
Speaker 3: And that's fine, but it kind of kills the industry.

1473
01:18:43,080 --> 01:18:45,960
Speaker 2: I mean, it's it might be slightly different, I suppose,

1474
01:18:46,040 --> 01:18:48,479
Speaker 2: but musicians will tell you that they make far less

1475
01:18:48,520 --> 01:18:51,479
Speaker 2: money now because the Spotify model doesn't work for them

1476
01:18:52,520 --> 01:18:53,040
Speaker 2: as much.

1477
01:18:52,920 --> 01:18:53,320
Speaker 3: As it did.

1478
01:18:53,600 --> 01:18:55,360
Speaker 2: And I mean, does that worry you? I mean, for

1479
01:18:55,479 --> 01:18:57,760
Speaker 2: a start, there's going to be a lot more high

1480
01:18:57,840 --> 01:19:01,200
Speaker 2: quality content than there's ever been. In kind of stick

1481
01:19:01,280 --> 01:19:02,960
Speaker 2: out from that, it's going to be harder.

1482
01:19:03,800 --> 01:19:06,880
Speaker 7: Sure. I think the thing is that the industry has

1483
01:19:06,960 --> 01:19:11,000
Speaker 7: been shifting for the past twenty years. Certainly, those who've

1484
01:19:11,040 --> 01:19:13,160
Speaker 7: been in the industry for a lot longer, you know,

1485
01:19:13,280 --> 01:19:15,960
Speaker 7: speak of the glory days of their sex where you know,

1486
01:19:16,160 --> 01:19:18,960
Speaker 7: there was a lot more budget and a lot more

1487
01:19:19,200 --> 01:19:24,640
Speaker 7: kind of like investment in terms of craftsmanship, and I

1488
01:19:24,760 --> 01:19:28,720
Speaker 7: think now there is We are definitely, you know, concerned

1489
01:19:28,800 --> 01:19:33,759
Speaker 7: in the sense that how do we embrace change without

1490
01:19:34,680 --> 01:19:40,479
Speaker 7: necessarily almost copying out Because one of the biggest issues

1491
01:19:40,520 --> 01:19:43,400
Speaker 7: that are really critical for us as chocolate tribe is

1492
01:19:43,520 --> 01:19:47,840
Speaker 7: to empower and upscale the next generation. And how do

1493
01:19:47,920 --> 01:19:52,519
Speaker 7: you upscale you know, a generation when that skill is

1494
01:19:52,640 --> 01:19:56,680
Speaker 7: shifting itself, you know. So I think there is you know,

1495
01:19:57,040 --> 01:20:02,160
Speaker 7: a I want to say and unease with the fast

1496
01:20:02,320 --> 01:20:06,560
Speaker 7: pacedness of AI. But I think we are taking it

1497
01:20:06,760 --> 01:20:10,639
Speaker 7: in our stride as a company and we are learning

1498
01:20:11,000 --> 01:20:15,120
Speaker 7: how do you you know, manage this kind of change

1499
01:20:15,200 --> 01:20:17,720
Speaker 7: and at the speed that it's happening. But for me,

1500
01:20:17,880 --> 01:20:21,280
Speaker 7: I still think, Stephen, nothing is going to beat the

1501
01:20:21,360 --> 01:20:25,439
Speaker 7: sort of like human heart and soul that is poured

1502
01:20:25,520 --> 01:20:28,599
Speaker 7: into a piece of art. I often also tell people

1503
01:20:28,720 --> 01:20:31,479
Speaker 7: that when you and I make art, we are making

1504
01:20:31,520 --> 01:20:34,320
Speaker 7: it for each other. It's a human conversation. So when

1505
01:20:34,320 --> 01:20:37,439
Speaker 7: I'm looking at a Picasso, you know, there was something

1506
01:20:37,520 --> 01:20:40,960
Speaker 7: that Picaso was saying in his art, and he's talking

1507
01:20:41,000 --> 01:20:44,040
Speaker 7: to me, and you you know, he's not talking to

1508
01:20:44,120 --> 01:20:49,160
Speaker 7: an inanimate object or an algorithm or a data set.

1509
01:20:49,280 --> 01:20:52,240
Speaker 7: He's talking to another human. So I think for me,

1510
01:20:52,800 --> 01:20:56,400
Speaker 7: as much as you know AI being a tool and

1511
01:20:56,560 --> 01:21:00,679
Speaker 7: all the other different innovations, they are there to help

1512
01:21:00,800 --> 01:21:04,840
Speaker 7: us expedite processes. But the human hand and the human

1513
01:21:04,960 --> 01:21:10,080
Speaker 7: heart must be steeped in our art and in our experience.

1514
01:21:09,880 --> 01:21:13,160
Speaker 2: And no seople, if you come across someone you know

1515
01:21:13,280 --> 01:21:17,639
Speaker 2: towards the end of high school seventeen eighteen nineteen, would

1516
01:21:17,680 --> 01:21:20,479
Speaker 2: you suggest to them that they do the safe thing

1517
01:21:20,560 --> 01:21:24,280
Speaker 2: and do law? Would you suggest they give animation a try?

1518
01:21:24,840 --> 01:21:26,360
Speaker 2: I mean, should they try and do both?

1519
01:21:27,920 --> 01:21:32,000
Speaker 7: I would honestly say that in this then age is

1520
01:21:32,040 --> 01:21:37,160
Speaker 7: really important to be multi faceted. I think we live

1521
01:21:37,200 --> 01:21:41,280
Speaker 7: in a world where having you know, a band of

1522
01:21:41,439 --> 01:21:47,439
Speaker 7: skills is really important, and so while if they're really

1523
01:21:47,479 --> 01:21:50,000
Speaker 7: passionate about law, I would say go ahead and do it,

1524
01:21:50,800 --> 01:21:53,840
Speaker 7: but at the same time, you know, learn rust of

1525
01:21:54,680 --> 01:21:58,000
Speaker 7: other skills. Especially when you're younger, I think you're more agile,

1526
01:21:58,120 --> 01:22:00,559
Speaker 7: you're more open, and all of that. But I think

1527
01:22:00,600 --> 01:22:03,760
Speaker 7: as you get older, you kind of taper into you know,

1528
01:22:04,640 --> 01:22:10,000
Speaker 7: a specific field or specific aspect. And even with you know,

1529
01:22:10,360 --> 01:22:12,800
Speaker 7: I often also talk about not just young people, I

1530
01:22:12,800 --> 01:22:16,080
Speaker 7: also talk about second time career, you know, people who

1531
01:22:16,680 --> 01:22:21,000
Speaker 7: may not have realized their dreams because they went into

1532
01:22:21,040 --> 01:22:24,200
Speaker 7: a traditional career that their parents or society wanted them

1533
01:22:24,240 --> 01:22:27,040
Speaker 7: to go into. I often say, you know, it's also

1534
01:22:27,120 --> 01:22:33,400
Speaker 7: the moment for you to explore different, you know, careers,

1535
01:22:33,520 --> 01:22:37,400
Speaker 7: because we are in that age where you can, you know,

1536
01:22:37,600 --> 01:22:39,640
Speaker 7: you can look at more than just being sort of

1537
01:22:39,760 --> 01:22:43,200
Speaker 7: like a one trick pony. If so, I would definitely

1538
01:22:43,280 --> 01:22:46,080
Speaker 7: say go ahead, do a law, but also be as

1539
01:22:46,360 --> 01:22:52,840
Speaker 7: open as possible to especially from a technological fight to innovation,

1540
01:22:54,520 --> 01:22:57,879
Speaker 7: and explore that as as widely as possible.

1541
01:22:58,479 --> 01:23:00,960
Speaker 2: No people A really enjoyed talking what a story. Thank

1542
01:23:01,000 --> 01:23:05,120
Speaker 2: you so much, really appreciated. No MARKETO. Vandenbercht is the

1543
01:23:05,400 --> 01:23:08,559
Speaker 2: founder of Chocolate Tribe. Well, yeah, the story is starting

1544
01:23:08,560 --> 01:23:11,800
Speaker 2: out as a lawyer, now running still using the law,

1545
01:23:11,840 --> 01:23:14,760
Speaker 2: of course, but running the creative agency. They do all

1546
01:23:14,800 --> 01:23:17,479
Speaker 2: the special effects and things like that, the technical bits

1547
01:23:17,920 --> 01:23:20,280
Speaker 2: for some of the top movies coming out at the moment.

1548
01:23:20,320 --> 01:23:22,880
Speaker 2: Really is an amazing story. And as I say, as

1549
01:23:22,960 --> 01:23:25,439
Speaker 2: so many people in South Africa who've done so many

1550
01:23:25,600 --> 01:23:26,360
Speaker 2: different things.

1551
01:23:27,760 --> 01:23:30,280
Speaker 14: The Money Show with Stephen Kuetas is brought to you

1552
01:23:30,520 --> 01:23:33,920
Speaker 14: by abs A cib a Pan African bank invested in

1553
01:23:34,080 --> 01:23:37,439
Speaker 14: your story and the potential it can unlock because your

1554
01:23:37,560 --> 01:23:41,400
Speaker 14: story matters. That does the raster FSP well.

1555
01:23:41,600 --> 01:23:44,720
Speaker 2: In the US markets do seem to be recovering a

1556
01:23:44,760 --> 01:23:47,120
Speaker 2: lot coming up this week. There the Dow jones zero

1557
01:23:47,120 --> 01:23:49,120
Speaker 2: point four to eight percent, the naztak up point seven

1558
01:23:49,160 --> 01:23:51,360
Speaker 2: to the s and P five hundred up point six

1559
01:23:51,560 --> 01:23:54,880
Speaker 2: one at the moment, and of course, still so much

1560
01:23:54,960 --> 01:23:57,839
Speaker 2: attention on that gold price and so many people interested

1561
01:23:57,880 --> 01:24:01,599
Speaker 2: in it. Five thousand and ninety nine dollars eighty five

1562
01:24:01,760 --> 01:24:04,560
Speaker 2: cents an ounce at the mom just below that fivey

1563
01:24:04,720 --> 01:24:08,760
Speaker 2: one hundred dollars announced level. As I say, six months ago,

1564
01:24:09,160 --> 01:24:11,439
Speaker 2: you could never have predicted that I'd be starting with

1565
01:24:11,520 --> 01:24:15,439
Speaker 2: the phrase five when we got to the actual goal price.

1566
01:24:15,600 --> 01:24:17,280
Speaker 2: Is amazing how things changed.

1567
01:24:17,720 --> 01:24:20,360
Speaker 3: More, of course, on The Money Show tomorrow. Good evening,

1568
01:24:20,439 --> 01:24:21,080
Speaker 3: it's eight o'clock