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Speaker 1: Seven two big interview with.

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Speaker 2: Return our eyes now to what unfolded yesterday in the

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Speaker 2: Eastern Cape. One Solomon Ogbonna Zigo, a Nigerian national who

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Speaker 2: has now educated himself an Nigbo now East London. This

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Speaker 2: is meant to be some kind of king or representative

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Speaker 2: of Nigerians in that part of the country. There was

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Speaker 2: a big celebration, his picture was splashed all over the

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Speaker 2: newspapers a couple of weeks ago, and yesterday in March

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Speaker 2: that was meant to be a peaceful protest descended into chaos.

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Speaker 2: Property was attacked, vehicles torched and of course there've been

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Speaker 2: concerns about any possible injuries, no arrests so far, but

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Speaker 2: it does raise the question around how all of these

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Speaker 2: things are meant to work. We've invited Professor Lauren Lando,

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Speaker 2: who's an expert in migration and development from the Vits University,

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Speaker 2: joining us now on the line. Should have you on

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Speaker 2: the show and thank you for your time, proff.

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Speaker 3: It's a pleasure to be with you.

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Speaker 2: We've invited another professor Sommat Figheri, who is of course

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Speaker 2: a traditional leadership and heritage expert who also joins us,

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Speaker 2: and we're going to have both of you talking to

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Speaker 2: us at the same time. All is a pleasure to

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Speaker 2: have you, Prof Fighi on our show.

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Speaker 1: Thank you very much for inviting me, and also great

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Speaker 1: things to the fellow panelist.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate your agreement to come speak to us because

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Speaker 2: we'd invited a representative of Contra Lessa whom we're not

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Speaker 2: able to get a hold of this morning. So I

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Speaker 2: appreciate you stepping in at such short notice. They mess

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Speaker 2: start with you, Prof Figherni, Solomon Obona Ezeko. He wants

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Speaker 2: to be the Egway Digbo now East London. This is

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Speaker 2: of course a tradition from Nigeria, and some of those

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Speaker 2: who understand or agree with what he was trying to

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Speaker 2: do say, this is all a storm in a teacup.

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Speaker 2: He simply wanted to be the presentative of his countrymen

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Speaker 2: in that part of East London. Is it as simple

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Speaker 2: as that.

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Speaker 1: It's not simple at all. Remember that kingdoms do cover

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Speaker 1: certain areas. If then without consulting the other kingdom and

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Speaker 1: say these are our traditions and this is what we

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Speaker 1: want to do, and this is what it means and

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Speaker 1: what it does not mean, it will immediately create tension

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Speaker 1: it's no different from saying we are now having sufficient numbers,

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Speaker 1: we want to create a state within a state, if

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Speaker 1: I were to sort of simplify it in that way.

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Speaker 1: And it is for that reason that when you are

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Speaker 1: in another jurisdiction or in another country, you have to

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Speaker 1: consult with the traditional leadership of the area, with the

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Speaker 1: legal people to say, if we wanted to do abcit,

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Speaker 1: how would we go about doing it. It's one thing

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Speaker 1: to have an association where you say it's an association

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Speaker 1: to help each other, but traditional leadership is understood differently

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Speaker 1: in many places well.

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Speaker 2: Also, I mean the simple issue of sovereignty. Right any kingdom,

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Speaker 2: as you say, is a specific geographic area. The gumption

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Speaker 2: to even suggest you could be the king of an

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Speaker 2: existing area where people live is surely what was intolerable

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Speaker 2: to most people in the Eastern Cape.

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Speaker 1: Without any doubt. In fact, many would see it as

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Speaker 1: a sign of disrespect. Precisely because here there is no consultation.

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Speaker 1: They simply say we have enough numbers. The next thing

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Speaker 1: you will have people saying, we have words with these laws,

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Speaker 1: you can come here without going to this king and

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Speaker 1: so forth, because these things have implications even in the

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Speaker 1: place of origin. The ig ware has sudden powers, seven rules,

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Speaker 1: certain geographical area. So how do you create this without

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Speaker 1: creating an impression that I've landed in a lawless society

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Speaker 1: wherein you can do anything without saying what are the laws?

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Speaker 1: What are the norms?

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Speaker 2: Precisely, prof I would go so far as to say,

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Speaker 2: I don't care if they've gone to the grave of

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Speaker 2: King Hinza himself, it still wouldn't matter. They can't do

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Speaker 2: this London. Let me bring you into this conversation. How

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Speaker 2: much is this indicative of the migration issue in South

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Speaker 2: Africa that there would be sufficient numbers of a particular

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Speaker 2: community of foreign nationals in a city like Cuckom or

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Speaker 2: East London and indeed, perhaps more broadly the Eastern Cape

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Speaker 2: that this Solomon Ezeko thought you could do this.

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 3: I think there's a few things to keep in mind here.

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Speaker 3: One is that these egrade characters are not necessarily territorial right.

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Speaker 3: They represent leaders, and even in Nigeria, you can be

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Speaker 3: a leader of an economic sector or a community without

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Speaker 3: making a claim to the place. But I would agree

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Speaker 3: that it was disrespectful and only it is going to

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Speaker 3: provoke things. But I think we have a broader question

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Speaker 3: here of when you have foreigners who are in the

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Speaker 3: country and they're in an area where people often mobilize

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Speaker 3: and organize on ethnic or linguistic grounds, if they want participation,

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Speaker 3: if they represent they want to be represented in an area,

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Speaker 3: how are they going to do that?

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Speaker 1: And we have.

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Speaker 3: Community associations all over the country, and that is how

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Speaker 3: you engage with these communities. Should they call themselves king

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Speaker 3: should they make these kind of splash I think it's

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Speaker 3: completely misreading the room, But we do have to have

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Speaker 3: a question of how do we represent minorities, include immigrants

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Speaker 3: in the community. And in this case, this is how

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Speaker 3: they chose to do it, which is probably not the

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Speaker 3: best way.

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Speaker 2: For My question though, is how much is the very

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Speaker 2: incident indicative of the fact that there are enough numbers

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Speaker 2: of people that this fellow would then become the egware of.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you know, the numbers of Nigerians in

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Speaker 3: that area specifically, the numbers of people in that area

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Speaker 3: are not huge. We're talking about a few hundred people.

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Speaker 3: But of course that is part of what South Africa

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Speaker 3: is becoming, where you have migrants of different groups all

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Speaker 3: over sprinkled around the country. I think the broader question.

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Speaker 3: Here is the response to it, which has been hostile

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Speaker 3: and violent, and that is obviously not also the way

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Speaker 3: we should be dealing with these issues.

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Speaker 2: How should authorities be dealing with this? Because one of

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Speaker 2: the things I said in my introduction or a little

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Speaker 2: earlier on the show was as much as the march

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Speaker 2: took place yesterday, this was not something that necessarily made lines,

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Speaker 2: say the day before, even over the past weekend. This

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Speaker 2: was information that was in the public domain. There were

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Speaker 2: pictures of this man and his presumed spouse, and the

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Speaker 2: celebrations were well known. What could the authorities have done

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Speaker 2: to prevent things escalating to what they did yesterday?

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Speaker 3: I think there's a couple of things. I mean, someone

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Speaker 3: should have spoken to him, someone from his own community,

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Speaker 3: someone from the authorities, and say, look, this is a provocation.

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Speaker 3: The language you're using here is inappropriate in this context.

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Speaker 3: Can we celebrate, Can you have your cultural festival, which

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Speaker 3: is his rights to do. Can we appoint you a

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Speaker 3: leader of the community, which is his right to do,

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Speaker 3: but can we do it in a way that does

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Speaker 3: not provoke this kind of reaction. Of course, they should

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Speaker 3: also be speaking to the protesters that this is not

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Speaker 3: a provocation. This is not about taking over the country,

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Speaker 3: and that violence is not a way to address this concern,

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Speaker 3: however legitimate they may.

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Speaker 2: Be, Professor Figain, Could the authorities have done anything to

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Speaker 2: prevent things getting out of how like they did.

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Speaker 1: Immediately they had that there was something being organized of

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Speaker 1: this nature. They ought to have just gone to speak

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Speaker 1: with the persons and also check with the kingdom or

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Speaker 1: for ma clos are there to see if there have

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Speaker 1: been any consultations. If not, they would have just stopped

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Speaker 1: it and say that this will actually be provocative. There

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Speaker 1: are many associations of Nigerians, of Ethiopians, of Somalis and

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Speaker 1: so forth. No one has ever said you do not

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Speaker 1: have such associations, But to say you have a king

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Speaker 1: It's no different from saying I'm going to Rome where

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Speaker 1: the pope is to set up a mosque in the courtyard.

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Speaker 1: The same reaction. The same thing as saying I'm going

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Speaker 1: to a university without any norms of the university a

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Speaker 1: one to set up an another institution inside it. It

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Speaker 1: is a signal of lawlessness. Unfortunately, authorities, not only on

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Speaker 1: this matter, on corruption, on many other things. Reported sometimes

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Speaker 1: take time, take years, and we often react like a nail.

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Speaker 1: We dodge the hammer when we've already been hit.

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Speaker 2: So in that context then I made the argument that

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Speaker 2: as much as I understand the provocation and the emotions

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Speaker 2: that many people would have felt around this particular issue,

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Speaker 2: what you're alluding to their proffiganni the general failures of

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Speaker 2: services of delivery to the people of the Eastern Cape.

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Speaker 2: And I can give you any number of examples. Children

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Speaker 2: who have to wade through rivers because the bridges have

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Speaker 2: fallen apart, mud school's still being an issue, kids dying

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Speaker 2: in pit latrines, desperate mothers poisoning their children, and because

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Speaker 2: of a lack of food, And in all of those failures,

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Speaker 2: the authorities, I want to argue, get away with it

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Speaker 2: in inverted commas when the focus is on something like this,

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Speaker 2: notwithstanding the legitimate emotions over it, I want to posit

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Speaker 2: that the people of the Eastern Cape of bigger problems.

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Speaker 2: You take, Professor Figain, there is absolutely.

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Speaker 1: No doubt that they face bigger problems, and these things

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Speaker 1: could be a detraction. However, it is a bigger perception

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Speaker 1: of lawlessness. You remember when the Somali Is in Laberga

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Speaker 1: fought with the taxes and they simply put up a

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Speaker 1: flag of their country, brandished automatic rifles and even some

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Speaker 1: military great rifles. Have you ever had of any pursuit

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Speaker 1: of that since then? So people have a sense that

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Speaker 1: law in many ways, including the one of service delivery,

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Speaker 1: has collapsed. But I want to end by saying, when

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Speaker 1: we talk of violence, I can think of the most

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Speaker 1: violent thing than not providing services to the people, or

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Speaker 1: having the level of inequality that we have, or allowing

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Speaker 1: lawlessness where sometimes some of the police become part of

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Speaker 1: the criminal syndicates. Has the most violent thing any citizens

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Speaker 1: or residents of any country can ever feel.

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Speaker 2: Professor Landol give you the last word on this. I

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Speaker 2: want to argue the people of the Eastern Cape this issue, notwithstanding,

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Speaker 2: have far bigger problems.

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Speaker 3: I can't agree more, and I think the Professor has

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Speaker 3: put it brilliantly that these are a distraction. We can

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Speaker 3: say that the king the Egrey has violated did certain norms,

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Speaker 3: but the attention should not be on him. We need

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Speaker 3: to turn it back to the failures of delivery and

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Speaker 3: the failures of that aw that don't allow people to

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Speaker 3: live in dignity.

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Speaker 2: Appreciate you both, Professor Laurenn Lando, expert on Migration and

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Speaker 2: Development from Viz University and Oxford and Traditional Leadership Inheritage

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Speaker 2: expert Professor Sommato da Figerni. Because ultimately, of course, if

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Speaker 2: you wrap it all up around general failures, whether it's

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Speaker 2: the maintenance of law and order and service delivery, all

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Speaker 2: of its circles back to that, even the gumption to

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Speaker 2: do this