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Speaker 1: And now The Money Show with Stephen Scridits on seven

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Speaker 1: oh two net's walk Little.

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Speaker 2: The Money Show with Stephen Curtis is brought to you

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Speaker 2: by ABS of Corporate and Investment Banking, a Pan African

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Speaker 2: bank that's invested in your story because your story matters.

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Speaker 2: Good evening, Welcome to the program. Eight minutes after six

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Speaker 2: times Stephen and Curtis. A but of corporate news out

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Speaker 2: today are both from Clicks, a late update from True

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Speaker 2: Earth's as well, both perhaps slightly disappointing as it happens,

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Speaker 2: and updates too from Sasol. They had a Aurora of

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Speaker 2: a day, a very strong update from them, and that

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Speaker 2: did have a big impact on their share price, but

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Speaker 2: proof I think that things are sort of getting back

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Speaker 2: to normal in terms of the final end of the

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Speaker 2: holiday period. We should start to get some more figures

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Speaker 2: next week as well from other retail groups and just

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Speaker 2: getting understanding of how the fist of season went for them.

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Speaker 2: Lots of talk still around Davos and all the conversations

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Speaker 2: that have been happening there. We've seen the taco trade,

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Speaker 2: Trump Boys chickens out today as US markets continue their

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Speaker 2: recovery because Trump said yesterday he would not use force

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Speaker 2: to take Greenland. Of course, we're always back to the

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Speaker 2: same question with him, which is how much can we

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Speaker 2: trust him? Well, we'll talk a bit more about that

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Speaker 2: and go to Davos. We'll speak to Christine Wu, the

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Speaker 2: interim Chief Executive for Personal and Private Banking at ABSA.

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Speaker 2: Are particularly interested for me in whether or not they're

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Speaker 2: still getting as much interest in a funding and projects

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Speaker 2: for green renewable energy. I think that's going to be

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Speaker 2: quite interesting because you know, the Trump administration going very

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Speaker 2: much the other way. Netbank's announcement late yesterday that they're

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Speaker 2: going to spend around fourteen billion Rand buying a controlling

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Speaker 2: stake in Kenya's NCBA group. It's a banking group, just

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Speaker 2: understanding of how there are opportunities there. Cocky Kyman, as

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Speaker 2: you know, is a banking expert and looking forward to

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Speaker 2: that conversation. One of the big stories that's rarely sort

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Speaker 2: of exercising the middle classes at the moment is around

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Speaker 2: ESKAM and solar installations, and I think they are two things.

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Speaker 2: The one is why should you register your own electricity

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Speaker 2: generation with ESKIM. You kind of got it because ESKAM

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Speaker 2: haven't been able to get it for you, and then

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Speaker 2: the second one. And I think this is going to

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Speaker 2: be a big issue. I wouldn't be surprised if this

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Speaker 2: court action on it is whether ESKIM and councils can

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Speaker 2: force you to go on to post paid if you're

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Speaker 2: currently on prepaid. My argument would go like this. For years,

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Speaker 2: ESKIM has been saying, we want to make sure people

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Speaker 2: pay to do that, We're forcing large areas onto pre paid.

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Speaker 2: You pay before you use it, like you do for

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Speaker 2: most things, and as a result, we get a more

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Speaker 2: accurate billing structure. Now they're saying if you're on solo,

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Speaker 2: you must go post paid. Now. I live in a

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Speaker 2: city of Joeburg area for electricity, and like many people,

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Speaker 2: I'm a veteran of wondering scratching my head, how on

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Speaker 2: earth do they come to that electricity bill. I eventually

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Speaker 2: ended up on prepaid. I do have a solar installation,

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Speaker 2: and I'm very happy to do things that way. I

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Speaker 2: must just make this point. I don't mind going on

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Speaker 2: prepaid and paying a network fee. I don't mind staying

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Speaker 2: on prepaid and helping provide and subsidize other people in

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Speaker 2: the city with electricity. I'll see that. That's just the

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Speaker 2: way life is. That's what we do with our tax anyway.

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Speaker 2: I've made my peace with that many years ago. It's

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Speaker 2: the right thing to do anyway, I'm happy to do it.

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Speaker 2: I do mind having to put my financial health in

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Speaker 2: a system. And I'm talking not so much about Eskom,

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Speaker 2: but City Power now that has shown in the past

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Speaker 2: and not be able to conduct a billing system properly.

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Speaker 2: That I don't know if I would accept that. I

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Speaker 2: don't know if you would oh seven two seven oh

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Speaker 2: two one seven oh two. I'm looking for a case

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Speaker 2: to say that I'm wrong. Please, but if you agree

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Speaker 2: with me, I'd also like to know, are you happy

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Speaker 2: to go post paid because you have solar? Oh seven

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Speaker 2: two seven oh two one seven o two. And then

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Speaker 2: also what's happening with board members at the moment? An

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Speaker 2: interesting pole suggesting in fact, most CEOs don't turn to

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Speaker 2: the chair of the board for advice or help or

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Speaker 2: just to discuss issues. They actually go elsewhere. I thought

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Speaker 2: that was very interesting. Whole point of having a chair

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Speaker 2: of a board is often there the most person in

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Speaker 2: the room, the sort of chair of wisdom. If you like,

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Speaker 2: why wouldn't you go there. We'll speak to Andrew Woodburn

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Speaker 2: about that in the next little while as well. Good

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Speaker 2: to hear from you. O double one douba three oh

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Speaker 2: seven oh two two one four four six, five sixty seven.

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Speaker 3: The Loly Show with Stephen krutis live on ninety two

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Speaker 3: point seven and one O six FM, streaming on the

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Speaker 3: Prime Media Plus.

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Speaker 4: NAP and DStv channel eight five six.

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Speaker 2: Well after the drama of yesterday's speech by the US

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Speaker 2: President Donald Trump at Davos confirmation today, South Africa will

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Speaker 2: be hosting a meeting of the World Economic Forum in

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Speaker 2: Cape Town next year, the Forum's Africa meetings resuming after

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Speaker 2: a break of about six years. At the same time,

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Speaker 2: our ministers and our business leaders still making the case

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Speaker 2: for investment in South Africa and in Africa. One of

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Speaker 2: them is Christine Wu. She's the interim Chief Executive for

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Speaker 2: Personal and Private Banking at Absent. She's on the line

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Speaker 2: now from Davos. Christine. Good evening and thanks for your time.

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Speaker 2: I know investors have their hands full with everything.

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Speaker 5: At the moment.

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Speaker 2: In the middle of all of that, has it been

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Speaker 2: possible to make a case for investing in Africa.

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Speaker 6: Good evening, Steven thank you so much for having me

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Speaker 6: on the show. So, of course, I think the South

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Speaker 6: Africa delegation has put on a very very strong investment case.

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Speaker 6: But needless to say, we have strong competition. Every single

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Speaker 6: country is definitely all putting their best foot forward.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I would imagine to try and punch through that,

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Speaker 2: to try and stand out can be quite difficult. And

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Speaker 2: yet if you're looking for a growth market, if you're

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Speaker 2: looking in population growth, Africa is the place.

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Speaker 4: Definitely.

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Speaker 6: I think what we are seeing is that with and

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Speaker 6: Mark Couni has said it quite well that the world

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Speaker 6: order has come to a rupture point. And typically in

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Speaker 6: these situations there are always new opportunities. And South Africa,

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Speaker 6: by the virtue of our geographic location, by the virtue

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Speaker 6: of our resources, and also the abundance of people capital,

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Speaker 6: certainly it is a destination not to be ignored.

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump has been sort of making this claim, and

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Speaker 2: he made it that that was yesterday, that renewable energy

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Speaker 2: was a scam. Are you seeing an appetite for green

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Speaker 2: energy projects? I mean, you've been looking in that space,

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Speaker 2: so you still see an appetite for that, despite what

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Speaker 2: the Trump administration now says.

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Speaker 6: I think we shouldn't over index on just some of

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Speaker 6: these pronouncements. I think across the board in order conversation,

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Speaker 6: most of the participants have voiced very strong support for

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Speaker 6: green energy. To give an example, the most important conversation

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Speaker 6: actually is around the AI disruption, and with AI there's

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Speaker 6: going to be a huge search in energy demand. And

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Speaker 6: across the board, what we are seeing is that different

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Speaker 6: countries are all articulating very ambitious plans in terms of

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Speaker 6: energy generation, but most of those are actually around sustainable sources.

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Speaker 6: So for example, in China, they are actually talking about

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Speaker 6: fast tracking the technology development in nuclear fusion.

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Speaker 2: We seem to be losing Christine Wo there optimistic that

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Speaker 2: that line will come back. It seemed to happen quite unexpectedly.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it's an anti green backlash. I'm not sure an

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Speaker 2: anti green energy backlash. I should say, let's just see

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Speaker 2: if Christine Wu is still with us. Christine, you were

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Speaker 2: talking about green energy and how they're still interest in

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Speaker 2: sustainable energy.

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Speaker 6: Absolutely, I don't know if my line is a.

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Speaker 4: Better, but.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we're going to have to abandon that

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Speaker 2: for the moment. Let's say, if we're able to re

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Speaker 2: establish contact with Christine Wu, and able to just continue

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Speaker 2: that conversation. There are other questions, of course, around opportunities

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Speaker 2: in Africa. So much space in the fintech area. Over

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Speaker 2: the last little while, we've seen so much growth there

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Speaker 2: and everyone sort of talking about whether or not they're

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Speaker 2: able to make money in that sector. Do want to

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Speaker 2: ask Christine Wu about that. We'll try and come back

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Speaker 2: to that. Christine Wu's the interim chief executive for Personal

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Speaker 2: and Private Banking for Abscess. She's on the line there

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Speaker 2: from Davos. We've seen so many people making pronouncements at

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Speaker 2: Davos recently. I'm also very interested in how the World

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Speaker 2: Economic Forums Africa meetings are coming back. They went until

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Speaker 2: twenty nineteen. I went to one or two. I remember

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Speaker 2: covering for EWN and for this show as it happens

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Speaker 2: back in twenty seventeen we were in Durban. Then I

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Speaker 2: remember going to Rewonder for another one as well and

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Speaker 2: covering that in twenty sixteen. The thing about those meetings

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Speaker 2: IOIL has always found was that you kept bumping into

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Speaker 2: people from all over the continent and you could see

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Speaker 2: the deals being done literally in front of you. It

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Speaker 2: really was quite extraordinary. So I think having the World

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Speaker 2: Economic Forum Africa meetings back again is going to be

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Speaker 2: a very important moment and I look forward to having

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Speaker 2: them back in South Africa. The one next year will

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Speaker 2: be in Cape Tanna. Imagine they might go back to

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Speaker 2: Nigeria or perhaps even Rwanda, maybe not Rwanda in the

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Speaker 2: next little while. So good news there. I will try

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Speaker 2: and resume that conversation with Christine who at some point

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Speaker 2: seventeen minutes after six.

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Speaker 4: Stephen is gone at at at Stephen.

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Speaker 2: Confirmation late yesterday from Nedbank they're planning to spend around

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Speaker 2: fourteen billion round for a controlling stake in the Kenyan

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Speaker 2: Bank NCBA. It's a move into East Africa, I suppose

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Speaker 2: after they abandoned their previous investment in West Africa. Koki

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Speaker 2: Koiman is an expert on banking. Koki, good evening. Does

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Speaker 2: this make strategic sense for Nedbank to go into West Africa,

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Speaker 2: to go into a Kenya buy an operation that's already

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Speaker 2: a successful business.

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Speaker 7: It actually does about position Nedbank finds itself in in

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Speaker 7: I mean, just to go back to twelve years, net

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Speaker 7: Bank was always very much a corporate bank and not

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Speaker 7: so much retail and there's a history to that as well.

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Speaker 7: But let's go back that far. And whilst Standard Bank

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Speaker 7: had been growing in Africa and building a massive Africa

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Speaker 7: franchise and Access started going that which as well, Netbank

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Speaker 7: did not have much in Africa except obviously in the Libia.

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Speaker 7: Botswana was in London, and so Netbank made the decision

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Speaker 7: to buy a group of a stake in a group

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Speaker 7: of African banks, Echo Bank. That's about twelve years ago.

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Speaker 7: And that investment never really worked out because either didn't

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Speaker 7: have control. They only had a twenty two or plus

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Speaker 7: percent of that investment, so didn't have enough control. And

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Speaker 7: finally at the beginning when last year under new management,

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Speaker 7: when Mike Brown had stepped stepped out, retired new CEO decided,

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Speaker 7: you know, let's sell that. And I think it was

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Speaker 7: a good decision. But long story, Nedbank now sits without

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Speaker 7: anything in Africa and with a large cash amount which

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Speaker 7: will be coming their way. And that's where they've started

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Speaker 7: doing some acquisitions to bolster where they aren't deficient. And

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Speaker 7: this one is the first step, or not to be

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Speaker 7: more steps. So there's quite a big step to get

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Speaker 7: an African presence. By the way, the question is why

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Speaker 7: are so so African banks all growing in Africa and

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Speaker 7: are dominant in Africa. It's because really South Africa itself,

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Speaker 7: the growth rate has been quite poor and the countries

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Speaker 7: north of our borders have all been growing at a

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Speaker 7: much faster rate than South Africa. So you actually going

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Speaker 7: into growth countries Kenya, Brundi, et cetera, et cetera. And

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Speaker 7: that's really what is driving the decision.

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Speaker 2: I mean, obviously there are also many people here a

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Speaker 2: bank accounts. There might be more unbanked people in other places.

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Speaker 2: There's that. There's also the sort of fintech space and

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Speaker 2: in fact ned Bank brought into Ecorcord just a few

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Speaker 2: months ago. I mean, you have to be able to

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Speaker 2: compete in that space I would imagine in Africa to

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Speaker 2: make a banking acquisition.

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Speaker 7: Work quite correct. So the ECUCO actually acquisition can help

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Speaker 7: them now on on two fronts. And I'm not sure

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Speaker 7: if when they bought in corcor they are already news

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Speaker 7: they're going to do this transaction. But Equacor helps them

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Speaker 7: on the on the less affluent so called the sector,

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Speaker 7: and it's and it's quite an entrepreneurial, very good tick.

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Speaker 7: I think it's a good acquisition. Again, it's full in

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Speaker 7: the laps the or the short short folder head on

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Speaker 7: that consumer space. And so exactly as I said, Cook

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Speaker 7: was also in Africa going into Africa, so at will

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Speaker 7: really help them. Although NBC so far what I hear

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Speaker 7: the technical ability is also fairly good that I'm sure

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Speaker 7: that you can learn from each other.

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Speaker 2: And obviously cocky. I mean, it would make sense for

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Speaker 2: Netbank to buy an operation or to buy a big

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Speaker 2: share in an operation that's already established to grow organically.

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Speaker 2: It would take a very long time, much better to

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Speaker 2: do it in this way, even though it'll cost you

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Speaker 2: more money.

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Speaker 7: Quite correct, So you'll share this giving patients as suppose.

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Speaker 7: Then you can see that on the valuation of ned

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Speaker 7: Bank it is the lowest on pee and the lowest

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Speaker 7: on price to net as a value of all the

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Speaker 7: South African banks because it basically just got South African

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Speaker 7: corporate growth that's got not the same as the other

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Speaker 7: banks were excluding first trend. Come back to that just now.

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Speaker 7: But so Salema specifically, I've got the higher growth in

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Speaker 7: Africa and that's the frustration. So for Netbank to start

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Speaker 7: doing that greenfield as it's called, you know, slowly, we'll

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Speaker 7: just take ten twelve years and about the way. Obviously

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Speaker 7: acquisitions bring with it a big risk. As a film

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Speaker 7: with a prettle, that was a purchase where they they

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Speaker 7: had a stake but not control. This time they have

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Speaker 7: learned they've got control as well, and I'm sure they've

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Speaker 7: done their homework and to make sure that that is

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Speaker 7: a good match of cultures of the two businesses.

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Speaker 2: Cooky, thank you so much. Cocky Kuoman is an expert

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Speaker 2: on banking. Twenty two minutes after six.

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Speaker 4: The Money Show with Stephen on seven O two seven two.

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Speaker 2: Being able to reestablish contact now with Christine, the interim

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Speaker 2: Chief Executive for Personal and Private Banking at ABSSIES at

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Speaker 2: DeVos at the World Economic Forum meeting. Christine, sorry all

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Speaker 2: of this trouble. You were talking about renewable energy. The

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Speaker 2: question I'd put to you was, is there still a

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Speaker 2: huge amount of interest in sustainable and renewable energy despite

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Speaker 2: the attitude of the Trump administration.

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Speaker 6: Absolutely, Stephen, And first of all, I just want to

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Speaker 6: clarify that this connection was through no conspiracy of that kind.

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Speaker 4: But what we are also.

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Speaker 6: Hearing actually very encouraging the is with the AI boom,

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Speaker 6: there's going to be a huge surge in energy demand

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Speaker 6: and actually across the globe, a lot of the countries

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Speaker 6: are actually pledging very ambitious and aggressive plan to ramp

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Speaker 6: up renewable energy, you know, to cater for this demand.

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Speaker 2: Everyone's talking about making money from fintech, particularly on our continent.

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Speaker 2: Are there still opportunities to do that? I mean, there

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Speaker 2: are some quite established players now, but do you see

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Speaker 2: that as a growth area for you, particularly throughout Africa?

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Speaker 6: Definitely, I think we need to actually anchor the ambition

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Speaker 6: on the bigger set of financial inclusion. If we're only

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Speaker 6: in looking narrowly at the existing revenue pool, of course

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Speaker 6: it feels like we are all competing for a shrinking pie.

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Speaker 6: But the reality is Africa is underpenetrated when it comes

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Speaker 6: to a holistic set of financial services. If we look

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Speaker 6: at penetration of mortgages, if we're looking at penetration of insurance,

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Speaker 6: this all speaks to opportunity for us to leverage technology

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Speaker 6: to drastically improve everyone's financial inclusion.

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Speaker 2: And as a bank at Christine, someone who works in banking,

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Speaker 2: you occupy a very senior position and a very big group.

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Speaker 2: And we look at what's happening around the world, all

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Speaker 2: of the geopolitical risk everyone's talking about the big changes

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Speaker 2: that we're seeing AI and all the rest. Do you

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Speaker 2: think that makes your life a lot harder? It must

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Speaker 2: make it more complex. But for business leaders like yourself,

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Speaker 2: for political leader in South Africa to make the right

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Speaker 2: decisions at this time, has that all just become a

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Speaker 2: lot harder?

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Speaker 6: I think it actually makes it more exciting. This it

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Speaker 6: goes without saying that there will be a lot more

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Speaker 6: complexity that we need to navigate, but at the same time,

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Speaker 6: these are exciting changes that we can look forward to globally.

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Speaker 6: I think it's estimated that through AI we can unlock

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Speaker 6: fifteen trillion dollars of value globally by twenty thirty. So

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Speaker 6: that means the way we look at creating value in

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Speaker 6: AI has to go from being experimental to being systemic

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Speaker 6: and this actually places a huge amount of burden on

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Speaker 6: the leaders to think about how to unlock value at

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Speaker 6: an enterprise level, but also as a country, how do

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Speaker 6: we actually use this as an opportunity to pivot to

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Speaker 6: actually unlock a lot of the social issues. Because through

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Speaker 6: this process we can actually use AI to create financial inclusion.

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Speaker 6: I'm rather than creating more inequality.

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Speaker 2: Christine, thank you Christine Wu, the interim chief executive for

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Speaker 2: Personal and Private Banking it Apps, are very glad we

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Speaker 2: were able to finish that conversation twenty six minutes now

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Speaker 2: after six o'clock. The money show the market really fundament

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Speaker 2: is a portfolio manager at Advice works really good. Evening

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Speaker 2: a tough day for clicks that are trading updates. On

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Speaker 2: the face of it, the numbers all points in the

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Speaker 2: right direction. Underneath that, though investors not impressed.

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Speaker 8: Evening Steven, Yeah, they did have a trading update as

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Speaker 8: you as you mentioned talking about group revenue being of

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Speaker 8: about seven seven hours percent, retail sales up six percent,

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Speaker 8: performacy turn.

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Speaker 5: Over about nine percent better.

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Speaker 8: But you know, Clique has proven itself over many years

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Speaker 8: to be a consistent generator of earnings and as a

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Speaker 8: result of that, they've earned quite a premium rating. So

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Speaker 8: it's not a it's not a cheap company. Trades on

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Speaker 8: a very expensive, demanding pe multiple, which is all very

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Speaker 8: well well when content used to generate attractive levels of growth,

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Speaker 8: But just at the moment, I don't know that this

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Speaker 8: level of growth is going to be sufficient to maintain

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Speaker 8: the sort of rating that they've been on historically. Comparable

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Speaker 8: store cells is at three point seven percent, of which

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Speaker 8: two point four percent is inflation, so so barely moving,

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Speaker 8: barely moving the dial just at the moment. You know,

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Speaker 8: they do complain a little bit about competition, and I

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Speaker 8: think that you know, everybody is exposed to competition, but

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Speaker 8: also about product availability and also systems implementation issues and

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Speaker 8: the like. You know, these are things that are under

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Speaker 8: their control. It's not beyond their control. And at that

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Speaker 8: sort of rating that they've been trading on, I think

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Speaker 8: the market would would have expected them to deal with

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Speaker 8: its six point four percent of the day.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, strongly, I mean, as SASA, we're up over

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Speaker 2: fourteen percent. I mean a strong update from them. They'll

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Speaker 2: make more money from fuel than they expected. They say

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Speaker 2: this year their destoning planters come on all and all

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Speaker 2: quite p it considering it as.

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Speaker 8: All market certainly like the trading update or the production

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Speaker 8: update to business update, you are fourteen percent. As you said,

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Speaker 8: chemicals business seemed to have flopped flat volumes and revenues,

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Speaker 8: but some fuels does seem to be doing well six

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Speaker 8: percent above above their guidance by the look of it,

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Speaker 8: on volumes, and they've they've increased their the expectations revised

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Speaker 8: up the growth rates for for fuel cells to far

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Speaker 8: between five and ten percent from zero to three percent.

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Speaker 8: And yes, I think significant productivity gains being made in

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Speaker 8: the in the as a result of the distarting plants,

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Speaker 8: which which means that they need to or they're buying

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Speaker 8: less call so domestic coal production is done six percent

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Speaker 8: and purchases of offshore coal and from outside supplies at

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Speaker 8: least down nineteen percent, and a lot of that's coming

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Speaker 8: from the efficiency of the of the di starning plants.

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Speaker 8: And I think the market obviously is pleasantly surprised, and

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Speaker 8: I think that saw it comes from a relatively recent

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Speaker 8: history of quite significant underperformance. So there's probably an element

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Speaker 8: of people starting to bet that they're turning a corner

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Speaker 8: and the future starting to look brighter for them, which

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Speaker 8: I think contributed to the price move.

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Speaker 2: We spoke to Benguela fund managers last night. They've gone

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Speaker 2: to the JAC. They're trying to basically put pressure on

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Speaker 2: mister Price to not go ahead with the purchase of

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Speaker 2: NKD the Central European retail chain. They say it's a

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Speaker 2: terrible move, it's going to destroy value. But Alan Gray

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Speaker 2: have increased their holdings of mister Price.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, interesting that Stephen is the announcement today saying Alan

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Speaker 8: Gray is now Caldo I think just over ten percent

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Speaker 8: of mister Price, which is obviously a significant stake. You know,

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Speaker 8: there's been a lot of a lot of shelters have

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Speaker 8: been complaining about, certainly the lack of transparency about this acquisition,

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Speaker 8: saying they want more detail and want to know they're

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Speaker 8: spending so many so much money on a dilute of

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Speaker 8: what earnings the loot of acquisition.

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Speaker 5: But you certainly all agrace taking the other side of

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Speaker 5: the trade.

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Speaker 8: They clearly think that mister Press can continue to deliver

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Speaker 8: on the good capital allocation decisions of the past.

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Speaker 2: And then US GDP figures coming out the US increasing

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Speaker 2: their economy growing at a revised four point four percent

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Speaker 2: on an annalyzed rate. That's the quickest in two years.

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Speaker 2: And we all know who's going to claim credit for it.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely well.

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Speaker 8: While while it's growing stronger, I think we're all happy.

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Speaker 5: To see that.

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Speaker 8: The better numbers, we'll have to just see how sustainable

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Speaker 8: it is and what the impact is on inflation going forward.

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Speaker 8: That might well negate some of the short term positivity.

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Speaker 2: Thanks very much, indeed ready to appreciate it. Rudy Fundamvis

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Speaker 2: portfolio manager at Advice Works, Bringing the time to six

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Speaker 2: thirty The Lney.

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Speaker 3: Show with Stephen Crudez Live on ninety two point seven

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Speaker 3: and one streaming on the Prime Media.

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Speaker 4: Plus NAP and DStv channel eight five.

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Speaker 2: Six eighteen minutes. Now to seven the time, good fruit

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Speaker 2: to hear from you tonight. We'll speak to ESKIM. Now

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Speaker 2: you may have a view on this on seven two,

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Speaker 2: seven oh two one seven oh two. And still I

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Speaker 2: think quite a few questions around Eskim's demand that everyone

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Speaker 2: who has a solar installation that it supplies directly with

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Speaker 2: the electricity must register the system with them, and that

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Speaker 2: it wants to move them from a prepaid system to

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Speaker 2: a post paid system. In other words, if you have

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Speaker 2: solar and you're supplied by ESKIM and you're currently on

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Speaker 2: the prepaid as I understand what ESKUM is saying, you

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Speaker 2: will have to be moved to a post paid system.

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Speaker 2: In other words, you'll get a bill and pay it.

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Speaker 2: Kevin Pillay is the general manager for the Central East

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Speaker 2: Cluster and engineer for ESKIM Distribution. Kevin good evening, and

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Speaker 2: thanks for your time. So I realize, just as a

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Speaker 2: starting point, that there's a safety consideration here that Eskim

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Speaker 2: would need to know for safety reasons if there is

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Speaker 2: another producer of electricity on the property. I have no

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Speaker 2: argument with that. I completely accept what you say about that.

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Speaker 2: But as I understand that you also want people to

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Speaker 2: register for other reasons, what are those other reasons?

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Speaker 9: Good evening, Stephen, Thank you, trust are modible?

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Speaker 5: You are all right.

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Speaker 9: So the reasons essentially is around safety, which you've covered,

436
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:34,400
Speaker 9: and safety is quite a large consideration. And the consideration

437
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 9: is safety of people working on the grid, safety of

438
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 9: other uses on the grid, and I think that's an

439
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 9: important aspect. And the ability for us is a utility

440
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:50,160
Speaker 9: to ensure that we have the well we are capable

441
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 9: of providing electricity to the other users within the required standard.

442
00:24:55,320 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 9: So solar systems are able to generating purity is of

443
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 9: cause disturbances on the voltage wave forms that can sometimes

444
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:13,360
Speaker 9: create an unsafe condition. So the intention is definitely around safety.

445
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:17,879
Speaker 9: The reason we are marketing it so widely at this

446
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 9: point in time is largely around the campaign that we're running,

447
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,520
Speaker 9: where we are waving a considerable amount of fees.

448
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:29,440
Speaker 2: Okay, so the fees is something I've never understood. There

449
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 2: was a requirement and this gets a bit complicated, and

450
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,199
Speaker 2: it wasn't just with you, it was also nurser. But

451
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 2: there was a requirement that a civil engineer had to

452
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:41,359
Speaker 2: sign this or that's gone. I understand the requirement that

453
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 2: a certivied electrician needs to sign it off. That's also fine,

454
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 2: But there shouldn't be any other fee. I don't know

455
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 2: what any other fee would be. So yes, Eskam says,

456
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 2: we're waiving it, but I don't understand what it would be.

457
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 9: What there is to wave Okay, all right, so let's

458
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 9: start with the engineering requirement. So the civil engineer aspect

459
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,920
Speaker 9: is not a utility requirement. I mean, if you're going

460
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 9: to put panels on your roof, that we're not considered

461
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 9: when your roof was designed. I'm sure you're insurance company

462
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 9: or a good homeowner would naturally want to get a

463
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,680
Speaker 9: civil engineer to sign that off for load purposes in

464
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 9: the mechanical integrity of that structure.

465
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 2: Okay, but that's not Eskum's problem. So what other fees

466
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 2: we need? We don't have that much time given, so

467
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,919
Speaker 2: I need to understand what Russia. Now there would be

468
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 2: for you to charge a registration fee. That's what I

469
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:37,160
Speaker 2: need to understand.

470
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:41,360
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, So for us to charge a fee, we

471
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 9: firstly the fees were waiving. The major portion of it

472
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 9: is the supply of a smart meter and the installation

473
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,920
Speaker 9: of a smart meter, so that you would understand is

474
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:52,400
Speaker 9: a natural requirement.

475
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 2: There are fees.

476
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 5: That go with us.

477
00:26:57,880 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 4: Analyzing or.

478
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 9: The veracity of that supplier integrity, and we need to

479
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 9: ensure that it complies with the grid, et cetera. So

480
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 9: you'll understand that there's imposed costs for site visits, et cetera,

481
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 9: and so that would be covered in the administrative and

482
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 9: connection fees, et cetera.

483
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 2: Okay, the smart meter, is that a meter that goes

484
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 2: both ways? Or is that a smart meter that only

485
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 2: goes one way?

486
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 9: So it's a bidirectional meter, and that gives the consumer

487
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 9: an opportunity to get credits from the utility for units

488
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:36,640
Speaker 9: that it pushes back onto the grid.

489
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 2: Here, Okay, if the consumer doesn't want to do that,

490
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 2: do they still have to may for it?

491
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 9: They need to ensure that they have an installation that

492
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,119
Speaker 9: meets the requirement of the grid. If the consumer doesn't

493
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,919
Speaker 9: want a bidirectional meter, that is fine with the consumer,

494
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 9: but we need to ensure that the grid, the inverter

495
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 9: and the connection point meets the requirement and ends why

496
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 9: they need to provide this EGI report or a compliance

497
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 9: report signed off by an electrician.

498
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 2: Kevin, I realize you don't make all of the policy,

499
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,160
Speaker 2: but you're representing ESKIM here, so I have to put

500
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 2: this question to you. We've had solar installations on homes

501
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 2: in South Africa. For argument's sake, let's say seven years,

502
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,879
Speaker 2: but probably longer, but let's just say seven years. In

503
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,159
Speaker 2: all of that time, has there been any problem that

504
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 2: any of those installations from home home installations have caused

505
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 2: on the grid.

506
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 9: There are, So we do struggle with managing voltage on

507
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 9: low voltage networks and I think we need to maybe

508
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 9: get a sense of appreciation for that. So on the

509
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 9: low voltage network, we don't have an online tap changer,

510
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 9: so we don't have an ability to automatically detect and

511
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 9: adjust the voltage. So managing voltage levels on the low

512
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 9: voltage network is a challenge and fortunately we have not

513
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 9: had an incident at this point in time. But the

514
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 9: numbers are stacked against us. I mean as they don't

515
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 9: have to correct, and you can go and have a

516
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 9: look at global studies. It happened in Australia, it happened

517
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 9: in the UK. The question is do we allow such

518
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 9: an unsafe condition to permeate or manifest without the utility

519
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 9: trying to create a safe cred for consumers.

520
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm sure there could be an argument that it's

521
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 2: not kind of your job, but for the moment, it

522
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 2: is asking this job.

523
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 9: It is I mean grid interface. Grid interface is a

524
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 9: utility requirement. Just let's let's let's cover this. If you

525
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 9: have too many generators pausing over voltage on the low

526
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 9: voltage network, the people, including those that have these rooftop solos,

527
00:29:57,920 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 9: can have an over voltage condition. You can get a

528
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 9: clients burn off, you can get a fire started, many

529
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 9: many unsaved conditions. Now in South Africa we run a

530
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 9: peculiar overet system called a TNCs. If the neutral breaks off,

531
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 9: and this can come through an unbalanced system caused by

532
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 9: these generators, you get a very unsafe condition that is

533
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 9: really undesirable, desirable, and we don't want to get to

534
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 9: that point. So it is I think for the benefit

535
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 9: of all of the users on the grid. That we

536
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 9: are able to have line off sight of the systems

537
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 9: on the grid, we are able to ensure that they comply.

538
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 9: We're able to ensure that we can take grid interventions

539
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 9: to put in necessary equipment should we need to be

540
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 9: able to monitor voltages on the low voltage network and

541
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 9: act responsibly.

542
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 2: So okay, now that makes sense to me. Thank you

543
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 2: for that. There's been an issue which I think is

544
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 2: going to become contentious. That's not necessarily about elect fisty,

545
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 2: but ESCAM public statements has been have said that if

546
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 2: people do not register their solar installations with you, you

547
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 2: are going to find them. And I'm not sure that

548
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 2: ESKIM has the legal power to impose a fine.

549
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 9: Okay, So Eskham as a legal power to impose fines

550
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 9: for illegal connections, but at this point in time, we

551
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 9: are not rendering or deeming unregistered small scale em better

552
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 9: generators as illegal, so we are not intending imposing fines.

553
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 9: All we are doing is encouraging customers to come forward,

554
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 9: and more so because they get a cost benefit at

555
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 9: this point in time from the concessionary campaign.

556
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm very glad to hear that, because I thought

557
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 2: that was going to lead to all sorts of trouble

558
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 2: for Eskum down the line. Okay, the issue of when

559
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 2: you pay. So, as I understand it, Eskum wants to

560
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 2: convert everyone who has solar and is currently on prepaid

561
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 2: to be paying post paid. Why do you want to

562
00:31:58,680 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 2: do that?

563
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 5: Okay?

564
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 9: So the issue is not around prepaid and postpaid. The

565
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 9: issue is around how the tariffs were engineered initially. And

566
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 9: you would appreciate that previously the tariffs were designed around

567
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 9: volumetric consumption and it was not a proper time of

568
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 9: use sort of to men. And in the current setup,

569
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 9: the most representative tariff for metriing technology that we have

570
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 9: is the post paid setup that allows us to implement

571
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 9: the necessary fixed charge and time of use.

572
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:40,479
Speaker 5: Terriff.

573
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 9: That's an important part in this.

574
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I presume. I presume that would be the case.

575
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 2: Is that with prepaid at the moment, you can't take

576
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 2: into account time of use. If you are able to

577
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 2: resolve that with prepaid, if I understand, there will be

578
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 2: people working on this. If you're able to, I mean,

579
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 2: someone somewhere must have cracked this. We're not the only

580
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 2: country that has solo installa. If someone cracks that in

581
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 2: the next year, would people be able to stay on prepaid?

582
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 10: Yeah?

583
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 9: Most certainly. I think if we are able to resolve

584
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 9: the technology, be able to get the appropriate tariff on prepaid,

585
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 9: ensure that the you know, correct amount of fixed charges

586
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 9: are implementable through the prepaid solution, then most certainly, and

587
00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 9: we are working on that.

588
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, definitely.

589
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 2: So do people on postpaid pay more because they pay

590
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 2: a higher network fee than people on prepaid if they're

591
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 2: escum customers?

592
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 9: Now it's a very wide question. So the tariffs are

593
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 9: designed to recover the cost of supply. It's not designed

594
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 9: to be punitive to any consumer, et cetera. So in

595
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 9: engineering the tariffs, many components are considered. So if you

596
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 9: look at the total recovery for a consumer on a

597
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 9: prepaid system versus that on a postped on a long run,

598
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 9: it's basically the same. However, when the consumption patterns change,

599
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:13,360
Speaker 9: then you get a consumer who uses the grid for

600
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 9: one percent of the time but needs it to be

601
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 9: available one hundred percent of the time. That comes with

602
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 9: infrastructure upkeep all of that, and then you get another

603
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 9: consumer that uses the grid one hundred percent of the

604
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:30,360
Speaker 9: time there's asymmetry in terms of contributions. So it's not

605
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 9: fair on your neighbor to be able to carry the

606
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 9: cost of providing this infrastructure, et cetera. So we need

607
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 9: to ensure that we have a tariff that's equitable, that's fair,

608
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 9: that shares not the cost of producing the electron, but

609
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:50,000
Speaker 9: the cost of having the infrastructure, the wire there and

610
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 9: it being always on and available for you.

611
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 2: Again, if someone comes up with a clever fee system

612
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 2: for prepaid, would that then allow people to stay on

613
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:00,880
Speaker 2: prepaid and pay the ex they need to pay for

614
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:01,719
Speaker 2: a network.

615
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 9: Fee most definitely, and that someone would be ESCAM. We

616
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 9: are working on that solution and that should come to

617
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 9: fruition here.

618
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 2: I do worry Kevin. You know, some of us, not

619
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 2: because of ESCIM, but because of the Joebic City Council

620
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 2: or others have very bad memories of getting estimates forever

621
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 2: never getting a proper bill, and some people might just

622
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:22,960
Speaker 2: oppose going on to postpaid for that reason.

623
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 9: So that's the beauty of the smart meter, Steven, I think,

624
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 9: and we're not talking about the benefits that the smart

625
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 9: meter comes with. So firstly, they are no longer me

626
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 9: to read. Being smart, we are able to get the

627
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 9: reading instantaneously as and when we require. That's first and

628
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 9: foremost being smart and bidirectional. The one thing we are

629
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,320
Speaker 9: not talking about is the immense benefit to the customers.

630
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,359
Speaker 9: So you would get a credit and by our calculation,

631
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,920
Speaker 9: we would probably be a revenue neutral as a utility

632
00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 9: or worse off once we start to pass credit and

633
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 9: we compare that to the offset from the fixed charges.

634
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 9: So customers, I think are approaching it emotionally. But if

635
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 9: you do the numbers what you're going to pay on

636
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 9: the fixed charges, you'll you will gain back from the

637
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 9: credits for the energy that you're putting on the grid.

638
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 9: So estimates should not be a problem. There's a smart

639
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 9: meter up and would the bi directional you stand again.

640
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:28,839
Speaker 2: Kevin, I really do appreciate the time and the very

641
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 2: clear explanation you've given us. Thank you have found that

642
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 2: very helpful. Kevin Palay is the general manager for the

643
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 2: Central East Customer engineer for Eskum Distribution.

644
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:39,839
Speaker 11: The Money Show with Stephen Quets is brought to you

645
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 11: by apps A cib A Pan African Bank invested in

646
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 11: your story and the potential it can unlock it because

647
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 11: your story matters as as a raised fsp.

648
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 2: Your response to that Escue conversation oh seven two seven

649
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 2: O two one seven o two.

650
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 9: Well.

651
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:59,320
Speaker 2: An interesting poll from the consultancy Egon Zender recently suggesting

652
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 2: that many see when they need advice, when they need

653
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 2: to talk something through, aren't going to their board. They

654
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 2: aren't going to the chair. They are going to their

655
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,720
Speaker 2: colleagues at executive level. Andrew Woodburn is the managing director

656
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 2: of Amrop Woodburn Man, Andrew, good evening. I would have

657
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,280
Speaker 2: thought a chair of a company is a huge asset

658
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,759
Speaker 2: for a CEO, the sort of voice of wisdom, if

659
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,240
Speaker 2: you like, the voice of experience, And yet it doesn't

660
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 2: seem to be quite like that.

661
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 12: Very good evening, Stephen. Now you've got it right. The

662
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 12: chair should be that in some cases not it should

663
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 12: be that. I mean, it's a fascinating survey. I know,

664
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 12: Eganzena most of their data's probably come from developed markets,

665
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:39,239
Speaker 12: where of course in our world were slightly different as

666
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:41,759
Speaker 12: you were discussing with ESCAM. But at the end of

667
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 12: the day, actually the way this works, it's much closer

668
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 12: to what the survey has shown than what people think.

669
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 12: People think the board run the company, they don't. The

670
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,720
Speaker 12: board's role is really only to do three things. Ensure

671
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:01,319
Speaker 12: that from a governance perspective, the egg executive are doing

672
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 12: things they should be doing in an ethical and moral way,

673
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,840
Speaker 12: and that follows the company's act and the king corporate

674
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 12: governance guidelines and so on. So that's really what the

675
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 12: board does, as stewarded by the chair. They then perform

676
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 12: advisory services where required. In the old days, and for example,

677
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 12: in soees, board members may have thought they were giving

678
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 12: the CEO and the executive instructions. In the modern era,

679
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 12: it's the executive that proposes strategy or proposes solutions to

680
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 12: problems or shares with the board how are they going

681
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 12: to do something, And in their advisory and governance role,

682
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 12: the board stress tests those proposals, checks them for pragmatism, governance, behaviors, robustness,

683
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 12: probability of success, and then the executive may respond to

684
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 12: their challenge by modifying those solutions. So actually, in most

685
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 12: cases the board is not providing the solutions, and therefore

686
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 12: survey might be presenting this in a slightly different way

687
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 12: than what most of us in the public think is

688
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 12: going on. But actually the modern era with governance and

689
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 12: advisory services from the board and execution they called the

690
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 12: executive for a reason they execute is it is working

691
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:22,239
Speaker 12: like this, except though in good practice the chairman and

692
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,920
Speaker 12: the CEO should have a very close working relationship but

693
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 12: not compromise the chairman's independence. So top I've explained it

694
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 12: a little bit.

695
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 2: No, absolutely, I mean I keep coming back to the

696
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 2: example of ESCUM where I'm Tetunyati. He's the chair but

697
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 2: he's been playing in public at least quite an active

698
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 2: role and clearly has supported the CEO and to the hilt,

699
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 2: and it's worked.

700
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 12: Direct and that is the very that's the best practice,

701
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,879
Speaker 12: that's the modern way of doing it. And that is why,

702
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 12: for example, in some soees during the era we've come

703
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 12: through where board members thoughts they could dictate which supplier

704
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 12: got a tender or how they were going to do something,

705
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:07,239
Speaker 12: or even dictate strategy to the executive. You saw executives

706
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:10,359
Speaker 12: number one not staying long because really they couldn't take

707
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:14,319
Speaker 12: the decisions. You saw the service delivery fail because the

708
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 12: executive was unable to execute because they are the ones

709
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 12: that go to work every day. And then in some

710
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 12: cases you even saw board members stepping across the line

711
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 12: and been caught for doing things that compromised their governance position.

712
00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:31,240
Speaker 2: Andrew Woodbin, thank you so much. Managing Director of Amrob

713
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:33,439
Speaker 2: woodburn Man. Just after seven o'clock.

714
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 1: And now The Money Show with seven on seven o

715
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:42,759
Speaker 1: two network, All The Money Show with Stephen Curtis has

716
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 1: brought to you by Absent Corporate and Investment Banking, a

717
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 1: Pan African bank that's invested in your story because your

718
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 1: story matters.

719
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 2: Good to have you along with us for the second

720
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 2: hour of the program. Plenty to come. We've got some response,

721
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,799
Speaker 2: of course to that conversation with esk him what's and

722
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 2: what's up? Voice notes, you'll hear those in just a moment.

723
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 2: We'll speak to see pumel Le Zondi Arteca expert. Would

724
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 2: you believe there are now apps in Denmark that help

725
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,879
Speaker 2: you to avoid doing business with American companies? Now, why

726
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 2: do you think that would be? What do you think

727
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,839
Speaker 2: could have happened that might create that market. We'll speak

728
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:22,720
Speaker 2: to Blani Balabala, the from the Township Entrepreneurs Agency about

729
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:25,800
Speaker 2: how you sort of keep your business sustainable in twenty

730
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:30,320
Speaker 2: twenty six and then in Investments School tonight with Governor

731
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 2: and Stefan Englbrecht. We're looking at how you survive, how

732
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 2: you make money in these volatile times, so many different

733
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 2: ways to look at it. Good to hear from you

734
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 2: tonight on double one, double A three oh seven oh

735
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:44,800
Speaker 2: two and two one four four six o five sixty seven.

736
00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 4: What appened Stephen on seven two seven oh two one

737
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 4: seven oh two.

738
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 2: Well, voice notes coming through. As you can imagine after

739
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:56,879
Speaker 2: that conversation with Esquim about solar installations.

740
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 13: Stephen, there's no feedback at the moment from solar systems

741
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:07,879
Speaker 13: back into es COM or city power, So how can

742
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 13: you claim that there can be any danger whatsoever to

743
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 13: their technicians. Their technicians are in no way affected. So

744
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:16,799
Speaker 13: we don't believe that story at all.

745
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 14: Well, if they're going to be worse off, why does

746
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 14: it make any business sense to move everyone off the

747
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 14: meters to both paid. I mean, that's the biggest lie

748
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:27,840
Speaker 14: right there.

749
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 5: Hi, Stephen, thanks again for the es COM interview.

750
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 15: I'm wondering why AS doesn't give you an option with

751
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:37,760
Speaker 15: the smart meter that if you have a stable network,

752
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:42,359
Speaker 15: that you can use your own personal network to get

753
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 15: the smart meter online rather than paying them. And that's

754
00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:49,279
Speaker 15: like a double cost, because if there smart meter is

755
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 15: that smart, then it should or it should have an

756
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:55,280
Speaker 15: option to connecting on your network to communicate with the system.

757
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 5: Thank you.

758
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a very interesting idea, some interesting responses to

759
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 2: that conversation. Let me just make this bigger point, which

760
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:05,520
Speaker 2: is that ESKIM is coming at this I think completely

761
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 2: the wrong way, and I'm talking specifically about the messaging

762
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:12,399
Speaker 2: around this. For a start, they keep referring to an SSEG.

763
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:15,239
Speaker 2: I wouldn't know an SSEG if it slapped me through

764
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 2: the face. It's a solar system, okay, can we please

765
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 2: call it what it is? And I'm not interested in

766
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 2: the technical explanation. Nobody I know calls the thing on

767
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 2: their roof an SSEG. It's a solar system. Let's be

768
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 2: done with that. The second thing is that when you're

769
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 2: ESKIM and you've created a situation which has forced most

770
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:36,880
Speaker 2: people to spend money they didn't want to spend on

771
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 2: a solar system, well, you're already on the backfoot from

772
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 2: a messaging point of view. So first I think you

773
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 2: would need to say we made this situation difficult for you.

774
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 2: Now we're ready to work with you, and this is

775
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:50,360
Speaker 2: how we're going to do it. And then the third

776
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:53,399
Speaker 2: thing is you can't. You can't now demand a fee

777
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 2: and then appear generous when you wave it. There shouldn't

778
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 2: be a fee in the first place. Should be a

779
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 2: simple thing. Go onto the ESKIM website. Stephen Curtis, bloody blah.

780
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:05,239
Speaker 2: Where do I live? What do I have?

781
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 5: This is what it is?

782
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 2: Technical details, electrician that's signed it off, doff, their number

783
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 2: or whatever it is. I'm sure they have a compliance number,

784
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 2: of certificate number or something like that. Full stop, end

785
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 2: of story, Fina. What else would you need? You can

786
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 2: and there wouldn't need to be anything else, but to

787
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,240
Speaker 2: say I need to charge a fee or this or that, well,

788
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 2: that's where people get a bit sicky. I do think

789
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 2: that ESKIM is right to really start to actually it

790
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:36,359
Speaker 2: just remind us of what a bi directional meter can

791
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 2: do for you, and actually that it might just help

792
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:43,359
Speaker 2: you make some money. Bear in mind, you're always going

793
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 2: to be putting electricity into the grid when everybody else

794
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:49,800
Speaker 2: is and when the costs are low, and you're always

795
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 2: going to be buying when nobody has any solar power

796
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 2: and the costs are high. So just remember that I

797
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 2: don't know how much money you'll make, but anyway, my

798
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:01,360
Speaker 2: thoughts for the moment. If I ask him, I'll start

799
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 2: the communication around this from scratch frankly thirteen minutes after.

800
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 4: Seven how money so takes Thursday.

801
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:13,400
Speaker 2: One of the wonderful things about human beings is that

802
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:17,480
Speaker 2: whenever you do something, they will react. And so President

803
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:22,760
Speaker 2: Donald trump interest in buying, stealing, owning, purchasing and nexing

804
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:26,800
Speaker 2: whatever Greenland has now led to a situation where people

805
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:32,320
Speaker 2: in Denmark have worked out ways to to boycott American products.

806
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 2: Seles artake experts, good evening. We should have probably expected this, hellos.

807
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 16: And yes, it should have been expected that people in

808
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 16: Denmark where are not happy with the way Trump has

809
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 16: been doing things, especially when it comes to him saying

810
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:53,319
Speaker 16: he wants to own Greenland in whichever more way that's

811
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 16: going to happen. So yeah, So now they are creating

812
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:03,080
Speaker 16: and downloading app that are guiding them, and they're guiding

813
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 16: each other through these apps and how to boilcotts American

814
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 16: products at which American products of boilcotts, but the alternatives

815
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 16: for those products as well.

816
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 2: And I mean I presume that in Denmark having these

817
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 2: apps is a mark of pride. They must be doing

818
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:20,120
Speaker 2: very well. Well, yes it is.

819
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 16: And also what's to be happening now is that these

820
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 16: are now the best performing apps on the apps store

821
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 16: in Denmark, which interestingly enough, so I think of any

822
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 16: app that you do know, well, these new apps that

823
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:40,160
Speaker 16: are helping Danish people guide each other on how to

824
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 16: boilcott American products and what the alternatives of those products are. Well,

825
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:48,800
Speaker 16: they've become the best, the most downloaded apps in Denmark

826
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 16: and actually the most used apps in Denmark.

827
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:54,440
Speaker 2: It's so interesting to sort of track the progress of

828
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 2: the Trump administration. I mean when Trump took over, he

829
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 2: was going on about big texts they own of ex

830
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 2: and Tesla. You know, Musk was his sort of first

831
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:06,200
Speaker 2: body that seems to have fallen by the wayside. TikTok

832
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 2: was a target of the US government. Things have really changed.

833
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:14,880
Speaker 16: It has, and it's just quite interesting that and now

834
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:17,919
Speaker 16: he's had conversations with big tech. For example, they're going

835
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 16: to get certain incentives. You may say there was an

836
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 16: incentive with TikTok, when where now there's an an American

837
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:30,440
Speaker 16: version of the app that's going to be run by Americans,

838
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:33,800
Speaker 16: including one of his own sons, Donald Trump, that is,

839
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:38,319
Speaker 16: and and and now it seems like he's calling big

840
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 16: tech in and he's like, hold on, well, the data

841
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:44,240
Speaker 16: centers that you're going to be running, you've been getting

842
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 16: electricity incentives so you don't pay as much as you're

843
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 16: supposed to. Well, now you're going to need to start

844
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:55,839
Speaker 16: paying for the electricity that the data centers are going

845
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:59,279
Speaker 16: to be using in order to run all this technology

846
00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:02,359
Speaker 16: and all this AI that's going to be running through

847
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 16: these data sensors. So it doesn't seem like it's as

848
00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 16: big of incentives that the text sectors. It would because

849
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:14,240
Speaker 16: quite a number of these companies were actually funding Trump's

850
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:17,399
Speaker 16: campaign leading up to him becoming president last year.

851
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:20,880
Speaker 2: The other thing that the Trump administration is going on

852
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:26,879
Speaker 2: about and his tech advisor Michael Kratzios, is around EU regulation. Now,

853
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:28,839
Speaker 2: I mean, I find it quite hard to believe because

854
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:31,799
Speaker 2: they say eregulation stops freedom of speech. They just want

855
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:37,520
Speaker 2: permission to be frankly racist. Why are the Trump people

856
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:41,840
Speaker 2: so angry with EU regulation? EU regulation represents what people

857
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 2: in the EU want.

858
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 16: Well, that's the same, but it's impacting on a lot

859
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 16: of these American companies because the latest one being x

860
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:57,399
Speaker 16: for example, which has been hit with fines because of

861
00:48:56,000 --> 00:49:01,960
Speaker 16: the pornography that's been appearing on the platform. And I'm

862
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:07,960
Speaker 16: also the AI AI companies as well that have been

863
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 16: found to have adult content and so also content that

864
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 16: seems to depict children in an adult fashion as well.

865
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:21,440
Speaker 16: So that's basically what the Europeans have been worried about,

866
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 16: and that's why they are finding these American companies, but

867
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:28,319
Speaker 16: also they want to guide what Europeans have access to.

868
00:49:28,840 --> 00:49:33,239
Speaker 16: But it's impacting on the on the companies that are Americans,

869
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:36,640
Speaker 16: that are coming from America that are creating this technology,

870
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:38,839
Speaker 16: because I mean, for the longest time, tech has been

871
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 16: created in Asia, not in China. And also the United

872
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 16: States of America and EU has been playing regulator, but

873
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:51,279
Speaker 16: that regulation is now impacting on profits because you are

874
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:55,480
Speaker 16: now limiting the number of people in the region that

875
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:58,240
Speaker 16: have access to these technologies because I'm in the latest

876
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 16: one for example, and I lack the and Britain also

877
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:06,880
Speaker 16: thinking of banning under sixteens from being on social media

878
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:11,120
Speaker 16: as well. And again some of these social media companies

879
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:13,240
Speaker 16: are coming from the United States of America.

880
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 2: In my experience, it is a very bad idea to

881
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 2: say to parents, we must be allowed to harm you

882
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:22,880
Speaker 2: your children, which I think is how this argument is

883
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:24,720
Speaker 2: going to end up looking if they're not careful.

884
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:28,480
Speaker 16: Well, that's the thing, right because with all this regulation,

885
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:32,560
Speaker 16: because we've had social media for almost two decades now,

886
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 16: so two decades on, it's changed, it's morphed into what

887
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:41,560
Speaker 16: it is today. So I think what these regulators, especially

888
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:43,959
Speaker 16: in Europe, and we've seen it elsewhere in the world

889
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:47,640
Speaker 16: like Australia for example, they've realized the harm that it

890
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:52,520
Speaker 16: can cause, especially two young minds that we've seen Denmark

891
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 16: as well, saying that they're not going to be technology

892
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 16: is no longer going to be allowed in the classroom.

893
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:00,399
Speaker 16: They're going back to textbooks as in the older days

894
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:04,120
Speaker 16: because of the impact that it has on learning and

895
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 16: how children develop as well. So there's that argument as well.

896
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:13,480
Speaker 16: Beyond profits, it's the argument or the well being of

897
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:16,800
Speaker 16: young people and the well being of the European region.

898
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 16: But Americans or the American government in this case of

899
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:24,120
Speaker 16: saying no, but you're impacting on us, so stop regulating us.

900
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:28,240
Speaker 16: Left for what we want with our technologies in your region.

901
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:31,480
Speaker 2: Super millenniare Zondie. Thanks so much, I'll take an expert. Well,

902
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:33,800
Speaker 2: it's going to create a nice battle, isn't it. Nineteen

903
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:35,759
Speaker 2: minutes after seven the.

904
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:38,680
Speaker 1: Money shows small business focus.

905
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:40,560
Speaker 2: Well, you know, of course, how difficult it can be

906
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:42,279
Speaker 2: for a small business to start the year with a

907
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:45,919
Speaker 2: clear plan, and entrepreneurs often you get the sense they're

908
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 2: rushing around doing things. They're sitting down and planning can

909
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:51,359
Speaker 2: be quite difficult. Bililani Balabala is the founder of the

910
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:54,879
Speaker 2: Township Entrepreneurs Agency. How's it, Bulolani, Good to see you man.

911
00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:57,879
Speaker 2: Why is it that entrepreneurs are not known for being

912
00:51:57,920 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 2: the world's best planners?

913
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 17: No, I think, thank you so much, Stephen, and good

914
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:06,080
Speaker 17: evening to all of your guests. It's purely because I

915
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:09,520
Speaker 17: think we've gotten into the habit of being reactionary. I

916
00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:11,760
Speaker 17: think you sort of then see it, especially with things

917
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:15,200
Speaker 17: like managing basic things like your compliance documents.

918
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:15,759
Speaker 5: We don't do.

919
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:19,480
Speaker 17: Them, so you're consistently spraying and praying, and then I

920
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:21,359
Speaker 17: think what you then pick up often is that when

921
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 17: you start out, you start out bootstrapping and start out

922
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:27,279
Speaker 17: with the Hassler's mentality, and houses mentality really is there's

923
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:30,359
Speaker 17: no systemization. Whatever goes that day goes and you pray

924
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:32,960
Speaker 17: for the best, but really truly for you to enter

925
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:35,240
Speaker 17: into the next level of your growth and to scale

926
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 17: your businesses your business, you need to start planning, which

927
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 17: is then being you know, taking full asset inventory of

928
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 17: everything that you have and assets and this time is

929
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:47,919
Speaker 17: your time, your knowledge, your team, their capabilities, your resources,

930
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 17: and then whatever resources.

931
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:50,960
Speaker 5: That are given to you by your clients.

932
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:54,239
Speaker 2: Now, when you need to do strategic goal setting, how

933
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 2: do you sort of do that?

934
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 5: What does it?

935
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:58,239
Speaker 2: I mean, it sounds like a nice, wonderful phrase, but

936
00:52:58,280 --> 00:52:59,320
Speaker 2: what is it actually?

937
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:00,960
Speaker 5: I mean, it's strategic goal setting.

938
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:02,759
Speaker 17: I mean really sounds like a really nice phrase, but

939
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 17: I think for me to feel a simplified I mean,

940
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:08,280
Speaker 17: it goes into it. The simplest form is strategic planning.

941
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:11,279
Speaker 17: And I mean strategy planning is twofold number one is

942
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 17: the planning. When you plan, you are working on things

943
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:16,880
Speaker 17: that you've got control, things that are within your periphery,

944
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 17: things assets and the assets and goods that are within

945
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:23,640
Speaker 17: your disposal, so you've got full management of that. When

946
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:25,799
Speaker 17: you talk about planning, we can't talk about planning first

947
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:29,319
Speaker 17: and foremost without talking about optimizing, really understanding what you

948
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:31,799
Speaker 17: actually have. So it's important that as a business owner

949
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:35,240
Speaker 17: you understand what capabilities you have, but also the resources

950
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 17: and tools that you actually have. Take stock of your

951
00:53:37,680 --> 00:53:40,240
Speaker 17: business before you go out there, and then your outsource

952
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:42,680
Speaker 17: whatever it is that you need. The second part is

953
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 17: when we sort of think about strategic planning. Strategy planning

954
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:47,719
Speaker 17: is when we look at number one, we do a

955
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:50,600
Speaker 17: myriad of different things. Look at what's happening in the environment,

956
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:53,279
Speaker 17: in the economy, but political moves that have happened around us,

957
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:56,120
Speaker 17: what our competitors are doing, what research we've done, and

958
00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:58,560
Speaker 17: then we then come up with the ethos that says

959
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:01,799
Speaker 17: business like mine to play on this particular field because

960
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 17: of reasons one to three for five. And then the

961
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:06,239
Speaker 17: tools that we'll use are one to three for five.

962
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 17: And because of that, we then anticipate or we assume

963
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:12,279
Speaker 17: that the results is going to be this result. If

964
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:15,440
Speaker 17: business that's strategic planning has got a much more better

965
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:19,400
Speaker 17: chance of succeeding because you have number one than a

966
00:54:19,440 --> 00:54:22,520
Speaker 17: full inventory and optimize the costs. Number two, you are

967
00:54:22,560 --> 00:54:24,560
Speaker 17: now have sussed out what is in the market, and

968
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:27,600
Speaker 17: you're gonna go out there and deliver most cases what

969
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:31,560
Speaker 17: usually happens around January is that small businesses only plan,

970
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:34,319
Speaker 17: but they do not strategically plan. That means that you

971
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:36,560
Speaker 17: don't plan for your growth. And what that then does

972
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:38,200
Speaker 17: is that it limits your growth because at the time

973
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:41,760
Speaker 17: it's already January, competitors, sorry, but the time it's already February.

974
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:44,120
Speaker 17: But the time it's already June, competitors are at your

975
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:46,879
Speaker 17: feed Sometimes I even superseded during the market because you've

976
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:49,319
Speaker 17: only worked around what you have and of ask you

977
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:51,719
Speaker 17: the question, simple question, how much more roomor is there

978
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:52,879
Speaker 17: in the market for us to grow?

979
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:54,480
Speaker 5: And how do we grow in the market?

980
00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:57,960
Speaker 2: I suppose the thing about being a hustler is that

981
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:01,279
Speaker 2: you think short term. Right, Yes, that must limit you

982
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:03,239
Speaker 2: when your business gets to a certain size.

983
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:04,759
Speaker 17: Not definitely, because when you think about think about it

984
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:07,160
Speaker 17: this way. I mean, in order for you to truly

985
00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:09,200
Speaker 17: grow and scale, you need to play the long game.

986
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 17: Sometimes it's working with a client who might not necessarily

987
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:15,400
Speaker 17: have the amount of money to pay you, but it's

988
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:18,520
Speaker 17: a strategy play because the market is looking at that customer.

989
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:21,200
Speaker 17: They might not necessarily have the amount of money to

990
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:23,759
Speaker 17: pay you because of they've made losses and they've had

991
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:27,000
Speaker 17: to rechange, and they've had to sell assets to keep afloat.

992
00:55:27,239 --> 00:55:29,719
Speaker 17: But you understand that the strategic players that you are

993
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:32,680
Speaker 17: now buying back the brand reputation that comes with the

994
00:55:32,719 --> 00:55:35,680
Speaker 17: association of working with that particular brand, that opens up

995
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:38,359
Speaker 17: the door to you working with other organization. There are

996
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:41,200
Speaker 17: many other plays for you to think about in playing

997
00:55:41,239 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 17: the long game. But I think when you then take

998
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:44,960
Speaker 17: on the mindset to play in the long game, you

999
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 17: then need to ask yourself a couple of key question

1000
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:49,560
Speaker 17: what's in it for me, what's in it for them?

1001
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:52,680
Speaker 17: What if there's a long term win for us? What

1002
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:54,840
Speaker 17: do we then do in the immediate to then build

1003
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:57,279
Speaker 17: rapport so that we then work after what so that

1004
00:55:57,360 --> 00:55:59,319
Speaker 17: we can build the how? And the how really is

1005
00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:02,719
Speaker 17: the plosophical way. We've understood what your values are, what

1006
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:05,600
Speaker 17: my values are? That will build, But short term thinking

1007
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:08,040
Speaker 17: will always kill you, and a lot of small businesses

1008
00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:10,760
Speaker 17: do this way. You've got that one lines, you haven't

1009
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:13,080
Speaker 17: delivered on the service, but you're still fighting them to

1010
00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:15,359
Speaker 17: pay the balance of their amount. But they're frustrated with

1011
00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:17,279
Speaker 17: the fact that the tent was ripped and their son's

1012
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:19,880
Speaker 17: birth there was a mark, So there's no empathy whatsoever.

1013
00:56:20,040 --> 00:56:22,160
Speaker 17: You're not thinking about the long term, not thinking about

1014
00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:24,360
Speaker 17: the fact that you will win the battle, but you

1015
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:26,440
Speaker 17: will lose the war. And that's what I always say

1016
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:28,400
Speaker 17: to my staff members and then small businesses that I

1017
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:31,080
Speaker 17: work with. Put yourself in the client's feet or the

1018
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:33,719
Speaker 17: client's shoes, think of the long term and let them

1019
00:56:33,719 --> 00:56:35,759
Speaker 17: be your ambassadors. But there's only one way they'll be

1020
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:38,160
Speaker 17: your ambassadors, and you think long term. We operate from

1021
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:40,440
Speaker 17: an empathetic point of view, and you build up your

1022
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:41,600
Speaker 17: emotional intelligence.

1023
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:45,279
Speaker 2: And I mean entrepreneurs also try and do everything. Yes,

1024
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:48,680
Speaker 2: I mean it's impossible eventually.

1025
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:49,279
Speaker 5: I mean definitely it is.

1026
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:51,600
Speaker 17: I mean jack of all trades, master of nine is

1027
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:53,960
Speaker 17: a very true is a very true one. And I

1028
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:56,280
Speaker 17: think for me, you know, oftentime I get the question

1029
00:56:56,719 --> 00:56:58,680
Speaker 17: or you meet entrepreneurs, and especially when you look at

1030
00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:02,840
Speaker 17: their business profile, and especially when the micro enterprises are small.

1031
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:06,680
Speaker 17: It ranges from we're a cleaning company, we're a videography company,

1032
00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:09,920
Speaker 17: a production company. We also do maintenance, was to do construction,

1033
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:12,440
Speaker 17: and then we occasionally in the weekend will shuttle you around.

1034
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:14,920
Speaker 17: Then when you sort of ask this individual, you know

1035
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:17,480
Speaker 17: which one is your strengthen your focus to con't clearly

1036
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:20,480
Speaker 17: articulate where the strengthen focus is. And there's nothing wrong

1037
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:23,840
Speaker 17: with having other divisions within your organization. As long as

1038
00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 17: you've mastered the one division. You've got a very strong

1039
00:57:26,360 --> 00:57:29,920
Speaker 17: management and operational team to execute on all the various

1040
00:57:29,960 --> 00:57:33,000
Speaker 17: parts of the business. So the right way of building

1041
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:34,720
Speaker 17: it is to ask yourself what is the value chain,

1042
00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:37,240
Speaker 17: what is the pipeline? How do I scale myself and growth?

1043
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:40,240
Speaker 17: So you then move from outsourcing to reselling, to building

1044
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:42,960
Speaker 17: up your own equipment of machinery, building your own teams, and.

1045
00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:44,640
Speaker 5: You grow within the value chain.

1046
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:48,320
Speaker 17: That is how you diversify your income without losing your focus.

1047
00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:50,919
Speaker 2: Well, Alani, thanks so much, really do appreciate it. Good

1048
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:53,280
Speaker 2: to see. Bililani Balabala is the founder of the Township

1049
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:54,920
Speaker 2: Entrepreneurs Agency.

1050
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:57,320
Speaker 4: The Money Show Investment School.

1051
00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:00,760
Speaker 2: Twenty two minutes now to eight o'clock time for Invest's School.

1052
00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 2: And this week US markets plunged as Donald Trump said

1053
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:07,480
Speaker 2: he was determined to take control of Greenland, and then

1054
00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:10,000
Speaker 2: they jumped when he said he still was, but he

1055
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:12,560
Speaker 2: wasn't going to do it by force. And the feature

1056
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:14,920
Speaker 2: of the last year has been the huge volatility in market,

1057
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:18,240
Speaker 2: So how do you make money reliably and consistently through

1058
00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:22,600
Speaker 2: investing in this moment. Stefan Engelbrecht's portfolio manager for Marzi

1059
00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:26,440
Speaker 2: next Gen and VERV Govinda is the portfolio manager at

1060
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:29,840
Speaker 2: rand Switch. Gentlemen, thanks very much indeed for coming in. Stefan,

1061
00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 2: let me start with you. Is this a moment at

1062
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:35,840
Speaker 2: which we need to change our strategy? Do we need

1063
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:38,320
Speaker 2: to accept that we are not investing in normal times?

1064
00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:40,320
Speaker 2: Or is this just hyper normal?

1065
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:43,960
Speaker 18: Well, the question is always well, Fizzley, thank you very

1066
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:46,520
Speaker 18: much for having us. Stephen, I'm always a privilege to

1067
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:46,840
Speaker 18: be here.

1068
00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:51,200
Speaker 2: Yeah. The question is that if you try to time.

1069
00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:55,680
Speaker 18: The market and try to change your investment methodology, there

1070
00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:58,080
Speaker 18: is so much research showing that that is just the

1071
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:01,080
Speaker 18: worst thing to do at any point time. So if

1072
00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:03,520
Speaker 18: you're a growth investor, I think the best thing is

1073
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:06,720
Speaker 18: just to keep on using your growth strategy. If you're

1074
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:09,400
Speaker 18: a value investor, keep on doing your value then try

1075
00:59:09,440 --> 00:59:11,600
Speaker 18: and switch from one to the other because you think

1076
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:13,880
Speaker 18: that the markets may be a little bit more volatile.

1077
00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:16,480
Speaker 18: That is, of course, if you have a long term horizon.

1078
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:21,120
Speaker 18: If you are, however, closer to your retirement age, it's

1079
00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:23,720
Speaker 18: a bit of a different discussion that you need to

1080
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:26,800
Speaker 18: perhaps be a little bit more protectionist going forward.

1081
00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:30,000
Speaker 2: If do you go along with that, I mean no,

1082
00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:32,160
Speaker 2: I've always thought you have quite an appetite for risk.

1083
00:59:32,880 --> 00:59:34,440
Speaker 10: Look, I do have an uptet for risk if you

1084
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:35,240
Speaker 10: can afford the risk.

1085
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:35,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know.

1086
00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 10: And as we said that basically, if you look at,

1087
00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:43,360
Speaker 10: for instance, the life cycle of an investor, if you're

1088
00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:45,560
Speaker 10: twenty years old, take the risk, hold on, just buy

1089
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:48,000
Speaker 10: into any kind of you see out there. If you're

1090
00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:51,400
Speaker 10: like fifty five, sixty sixty five, you know, waiting five

1091
00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:53,200
Speaker 10: ten years with market for cover text from sixty five

1092
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:55,880
Speaker 10: to seventy five, that's a very different change in stage

1093
00:59:55,880 --> 00:59:59,080
Speaker 10: in life. And so I mean look at capal protected instruments,

1094
00:59:59,120 --> 01:00:02,040
Speaker 10: things that how like structure products, for instance, which may

1095
01:00:02,120 --> 01:00:03,560
Speaker 10: kept the upside. So you're not going to get maybe

1096
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:05,600
Speaker 10: the fifty percent the market does in a good year

1097
01:00:06,280 --> 01:00:08,160
Speaker 10: or a great year, but you won't get the negative

1098
01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:10,320
Speaker 10: that the market does in a bad year. That might

1099
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:12,640
Speaker 10: make more sense to you than actually trying to go

1100
01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:15,720
Speaker 10: out and just maximize long term returns. And I think

1101
01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:19,000
Speaker 10: structure products for people that are approaching retirement that have

1102
01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:23,120
Speaker 10: income needs or basically can't afford the time it might

1103
01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:26,120
Speaker 10: take to recover, you know, from a downtown. The thing

1104
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:27,200
Speaker 10: I put to you is that you know, in two

1105
01:00:27,240 --> 01:00:29,919
Speaker 10: thousand and one or two thousand, when this dot com

1106
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:32,600
Speaker 10: crash happened, it took the S and P thirteen years

1107
01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:35,960
Speaker 10: to libly recover above the level it wasn't that pid

1108
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:39,200
Speaker 10: of time? Thirteen years is say what forty to fifty three?

1109
01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:39,800
Speaker 10: That's a long time?

1110
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:41,160
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1111
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:45,160
Speaker 2: No, absolutely, okay, So in moments like this and then

1112
01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:48,000
Speaker 2: and then the other question I suppose is is this

1113
01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:52,000
Speaker 2: an extraordinary time stefan not just because of the geopolitics,

1114
01:00:52,040 --> 01:00:56,240
Speaker 2: but also because of AI, because there's a there's from

1115
01:00:56,480 --> 01:00:58,840
Speaker 2: from time to time you can almost sliff the markets

1116
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:02,120
Speaker 2: feeling uncertain like most of the time it's great by

1117
01:01:02,160 --> 01:01:04,920
Speaker 2: as much in video as you can, and then suddenly

1118
01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:08,440
Speaker 2: there's a whiff for a bad week or something. So

1119
01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:11,720
Speaker 2: is this a little bit more complex than most times

1120
01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:12,520
Speaker 2: of uncertainty?

1121
01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:16,720
Speaker 18: I listened to a brilliant podcast the other day by

1122
01:01:16,880 --> 01:01:22,440
Speaker 18: one of my favorite authors.

1123
01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:23,920
Speaker 2: Sorry, sorry, not.

1124
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:31,560
Speaker 18: Anyway, anyway, we said nostalgia or we we tend to

1125
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:38,120
Speaker 18: look back in nostalgia with nostalgia at historical markets. And

1126
01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:40,600
Speaker 18: the reason for that is because we forget about all

1127
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:43,439
Speaker 18: the stuff that we were worried about when that when

1128
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:46,920
Speaker 18: the markets were doing going up or going down. We

1129
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:49,960
Speaker 18: always have something to worry about. Yes, now currently it's

1130
01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:55,000
Speaker 18: it's a one tweet or truth after the other that

1131
01:01:55,120 --> 01:01:57,400
Speaker 18: we have to be aware of. But in the past,

1132
01:01:57,440 --> 01:02:00,280
Speaker 18: we had very similar concerns, and then we just look

1133
01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:03,120
Speaker 18: at what the market tend to do over the past,

1134
01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:05,840
Speaker 18: and we forget about all of those worries that that

1135
01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:07,480
Speaker 18: we tend to have. I mean, so Africans have been

1136
01:02:07,520 --> 01:02:09,720
Speaker 18: worried about this is that African market for how long?

1137
01:02:10,160 --> 01:02:14,240
Speaker 18: And yet over the past decade, look where our market

1138
01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:14,840
Speaker 18: is currently.

1139
01:02:15,320 --> 01:02:17,800
Speaker 2: I mean, I've always thought we we feel more comfortable

1140
01:02:17,840 --> 01:02:20,480
Speaker 2: in the past because we've come to understand it, whereas

1141
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:23,120
Speaker 2: you don't actually understand the present, and we don't always

1142
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:26,280
Speaker 2: understand our past accurately either, But that's a different story.

1143
01:02:27,760 --> 01:02:32,000
Speaker 2: So viv okay, you you would ask a question about

1144
01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:33,960
Speaker 2: the what's worked for us in the past, the sort

1145
01:02:33,960 --> 01:02:38,960
Speaker 2: of historical assumptions, but the historical assumptions have often worked,

1146
01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:41,400
Speaker 2: and then that you know, in a way to build

1147
01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:45,480
Speaker 2: on Stefan's point, if you're going to well, if you,

1148
01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:48,760
Speaker 2: if you, if you've got a system now, don't change it.

1149
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:51,320
Speaker 2: But then you've got to try and compare where we

1150
01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:54,800
Speaker 2: are now compared to some big historical moments and wonder

1151
01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:56,960
Speaker 2: if things really have changed. So this takes us to

1152
01:02:57,000 --> 01:03:01,280
Speaker 2: a much more complicated question which has something fundamentally shifted

1153
01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:03,640
Speaker 2: and investing in the last three years.

1154
01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:07,800
Speaker 10: I think this fundamental in technology and one of the

1155
01:03:07,800 --> 01:03:10,680
Speaker 10: few things that actually does change human like behavior, et cetera,

1156
01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:13,840
Speaker 10: is technology. And the invention of the gun changed, you know,

1157
01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:17,320
Speaker 10: the world eternally. The invention electricity changed the world. The

1158
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:21,000
Speaker 10: inst the print, you know, towards a printer's changed the world.

1159
01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:24,720
Speaker 10: I do think that we are in one of those

1160
01:03:24,760 --> 01:03:26,600
Speaker 10: kind of points, and this is not I would I

1161
01:03:26,640 --> 01:03:28,840
Speaker 10: would say even the Internet probably was not as big

1162
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:31,200
Speaker 10: as AI, even cell phones on as big as AI.

1163
01:03:31,200 --> 01:03:32,479
Speaker 10: This is something that you'd have to go and maybe

1164
01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:36,640
Speaker 10: look at electricity, maybe the industrial revolution. In those scenarios,

1165
01:03:36,640 --> 01:03:40,560
Speaker 10: the world does change in very fundamental ways. And the

1166
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:42,600
Speaker 10: thing with AI right now is that we don't know

1167
01:03:42,680 --> 01:03:44,880
Speaker 10: for certainly if this technology is really going to take

1168
01:03:44,880 --> 01:03:47,640
Speaker 10: off the way we think it might. If it does,

1169
01:03:47,840 --> 01:03:49,480
Speaker 10: if we do how we are in a world in

1170
01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:52,080
Speaker 10: five years time where you have an Einstein in your pocket.

1171
01:03:52,840 --> 01:03:56,680
Speaker 10: I mean that world is literally inconceivable, and we don't

1172
01:03:56,720 --> 01:03:58,800
Speaker 10: even know how to understand how that would work in

1173
01:03:58,840 --> 01:04:01,680
Speaker 10: terms of labor markets, in productivity, in terms of a

1174
01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:05,160
Speaker 10: variety of different factors. Already we are starting to see

1175
01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:07,320
Speaker 10: things like points in self driving vehicles. I mean, I

1176
01:04:07,320 --> 01:04:10,160
Speaker 10: think the Tesla insurance when it has self driving on

1177
01:04:10,320 --> 01:04:13,280
Speaker 10: is cheaper than move doesn't have self driving on, showing

1178
01:04:13,280 --> 01:04:15,640
Speaker 10: that the insurance is showing that actually it is a

1179
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:18,400
Speaker 10: less risky option. What happens when you have the number

1180
01:04:18,440 --> 01:04:21,160
Speaker 10: one job in the world driver being replaced That is

1181
01:04:21,200 --> 01:04:24,960
Speaker 10: not you know as before for stability. So we are

1182
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:27,120
Speaker 10: living in a very uncertain world from that point of view,

1183
01:04:27,120 --> 01:04:28,760
Speaker 10: and I do think that you know, if you had

1184
01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:30,720
Speaker 10: to look at it like ten twenty years in the future,

1185
01:04:30,840 --> 01:04:32,480
Speaker 10: we'd look back to it like the invention of the

1186
01:04:32,520 --> 01:04:34,800
Speaker 10: printing machine, like you know, the printer, and say, oh wow,

1187
01:04:35,000 --> 01:04:37,120
Speaker 10: it's a wonderful invention, not realizing there was one hundred

1188
01:04:37,160 --> 01:04:39,360
Speaker 10: fift years of war Europe after that because of the invention.

1189
01:04:40,040 --> 01:04:41,960
Speaker 10: We might look back at the industrial evolution, not realizing

1190
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:46,160
Speaker 10: that the subba, you know, the sabotage staff, the alatt eites,

1191
01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:48,960
Speaker 10: et cetera. We are living through one of those periods

1192
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:51,040
Speaker 10: in which things are going to be crazy. In twenty

1193
01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:52,880
Speaker 10: thirty fifty years time they look back and say, Wow,

1194
01:04:52,880 --> 01:04:55,560
Speaker 10: what a wonderful time to be alive. But now it

1195
01:04:55,600 --> 01:04:57,680
Speaker 10: looks quite crazy and quite scary to be in the middle.

1196
01:04:58,160 --> 01:05:02,360
Speaker 2: Okay, so if it's crazy, step on, do we just

1197
01:05:02,440 --> 01:05:06,880
Speaker 2: do whatever whatever Warren Buffett has done? Do we just

1198
01:05:06,920 --> 01:05:09,320
Speaker 2: buy as much gold as we can? Then we have

1199
01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:14,600
Speaker 2: to be more creative than that. Really, well, I.

1200
01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:15,920
Speaker 18: I would argue that we always feel as though we

1201
01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:19,560
Speaker 18: are in a period where the technology is just changing.

1202
01:05:19,920 --> 01:05:22,600
Speaker 18: I think when when people were discussing the Internet, they

1203
01:05:22,680 --> 01:05:26,120
Speaker 18: were saying exactly what what we've just said about the internet,

1204
01:05:26,160 --> 01:05:29,360
Speaker 18: what he's saying about AI. Perhaps we have now a

1205
01:05:29,400 --> 01:05:32,200
Speaker 18: different view. We probably had the same opinion on social

1206
01:05:32,240 --> 01:05:35,920
Speaker 18: media how that is going to change the world. So

1207
01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:40,840
Speaker 18: I think that that we tend to overestimate the amount

1208
01:05:40,880 --> 01:05:44,360
Speaker 18: of disruption or what disruption is going to cause. In

1209
01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:49,240
Speaker 18: in the financial markets. The disruption is real, it's happening.

1210
01:05:50,240 --> 01:05:54,000
Speaker 18: But financial markets are quite quite good at allocating capital

1211
01:05:54,040 --> 01:05:56,720
Speaker 18: to where it's supposed to be reasonably efficient. Yes, we

1212
01:05:56,760 --> 01:06:00,360
Speaker 18: do have a few bubbles in between. But if you

1213
01:06:00,520 --> 01:06:04,320
Speaker 18: just keep on following your investment strategy, keep on investing

1214
01:06:05,080 --> 01:06:07,320
Speaker 18: the way you have been, I think that is all

1215
01:06:07,480 --> 01:06:09,480
Speaker 18: Like Warren Buffert, just keep on inveating the way he

1216
01:06:09,560 --> 01:06:12,600
Speaker 18: has been for for the past sixty years, then then

1217
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:15,720
Speaker 18: that is probably the best way of trying to maximize

1218
01:06:15,760 --> 01:06:18,280
Speaker 18: even during these volatile periods.

1219
01:06:20,120 --> 01:06:21,960
Speaker 2: If you look at what's happening, so many people are

1220
01:06:21,960 --> 01:06:24,640
Speaker 2: looking for gold, They're looking for a safe haven. Is

1221
01:06:24,680 --> 01:06:27,320
Speaker 2: there a problem with just saying I'm going to take

1222
01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:30,040
Speaker 2: everything I have. Gold's going to go through five thousand,

1223
01:06:30,240 --> 01:06:33,120
Speaker 2: It'll go through five thousand, five hundred. Look at where

1224
01:06:33,160 --> 01:06:35,400
Speaker 2: the predictions were for the end of last year, much

1225
01:06:35,440 --> 01:06:40,160
Speaker 2: lower than they actually were, and I know, whatever happens,

1226
01:06:40,280 --> 01:06:43,120
Speaker 2: I'll know that it's it's money that is safe. Is

1227
01:06:43,160 --> 01:06:45,080
Speaker 2: there Is that the wrong strategy?

1228
01:06:45,880 --> 01:06:46,120
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1229
01:06:46,120 --> 01:06:49,240
Speaker 10: Look, I mean gold has prolonged periods. Again, we look

1230
01:06:49,280 --> 01:06:51,320
Speaker 10: at like over twenty years and say, wow, well for

1231
01:06:51,400 --> 01:06:53,960
Speaker 10: twenty years look like a period like over like a

1232
01:06:54,000 --> 01:06:55,760
Speaker 10: toy period. You look at a tenure pinion that thatt

1233
01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:57,640
Speaker 10: your period, it looks look quite as attractive you know

1234
01:06:57,640 --> 01:06:59,919
Speaker 10: what I mean. There's periods in which the market's really

1235
01:07:00,080 --> 01:07:02,760
Speaker 10: to perform, even things like gold really and to perform.

1236
01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:05,400
Speaker 10: I remember when gold fell dramatically in two thousand and eight,

1237
01:07:05,480 --> 01:07:07,520
Speaker 10: people thought, what safe favor do you have here? You

1238
01:07:07,560 --> 01:07:10,920
Speaker 10: know what I mean? When things foiled as much. I

1239
01:07:10,960 --> 01:07:13,800
Speaker 10: think what you can do is that there are instruments

1240
01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:16,720
Speaker 10: that you can create or can be bought that to

1241
01:07:16,840 --> 01:07:18,800
Speaker 10: find what your outcomes look like. You say, I don't

1242
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:20,880
Speaker 10: want to lose money, but I'm willing to say anything

1243
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:24,000
Speaker 10: above say eighteen percent up per adam. I don't take

1244
01:07:24,560 --> 01:07:26,120
Speaker 10: there's an instrument that you can buy that will do

1245
01:07:26,160 --> 01:07:28,680
Speaker 10: that for you. Eighteen percent per anim is enough to

1246
01:07:28,720 --> 01:07:31,360
Speaker 10: basically combat information, give you a litturn you can live off,

1247
01:07:31,360 --> 01:07:33,600
Speaker 10: et cetera, et cetera, especially if you don't lose money.

1248
01:07:33,600 --> 01:07:35,680
Speaker 10: And like modern Buffet says, the number one ruleers don't

1249
01:07:35,720 --> 01:07:39,240
Speaker 10: lose money. Number two rollers look at number one.

1250
01:07:40,720 --> 01:07:45,280
Speaker 2: It's a very simple way of looking at it. I think, Stefan,

1251
01:07:45,280 --> 01:07:48,040
Speaker 2: there must also be if you're young, like you know,

1252
01:07:48,120 --> 01:07:52,720
Speaker 2: we are to say, okay, I'm going to take a

1253
01:07:52,720 --> 01:07:56,320
Speaker 2: big bet on something like in video or an a

1254
01:07:56,480 --> 01:07:58,640
Speaker 2: pick an ai stock and I'm gonna put as much

1255
01:07:58,680 --> 01:08:01,000
Speaker 2: money as I can there, and I'm just gonna hope

1256
01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:05,280
Speaker 2: for the best because there's the because that is how

1257
01:08:05,320 --> 01:08:07,880
Speaker 2: you would make the most money, actually is you would

1258
01:08:07,960 --> 01:08:11,120
Speaker 2: if you pick the right stock, particularly at this moment,

1259
01:08:11,400 --> 01:08:13,640
Speaker 2: that is how you would make the most money. The risk,

1260
01:08:13,680 --> 01:08:14,560
Speaker 2: of course is huge.

1261
01:08:15,960 --> 01:08:20,360
Speaker 18: Yeah, I mean you've just hit it on the head. Absolutely,

1262
01:08:20,439 --> 01:08:25,120
Speaker 18: that's that is. That's what a lot of entrepreneurs, that's

1263
01:08:25,120 --> 01:08:29,439
Speaker 18: that's basically their strategy. And we all only know about

1264
01:08:29,479 --> 01:08:33,640
Speaker 18: the successful entrepreneurs or the successful investors who who did that.

1265
01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:38,040
Speaker 18: We tend not to hear about the guys who made

1266
01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:41,439
Speaker 18: bets like that and and then lost everything. And I

1267
01:08:41,439 --> 01:08:44,080
Speaker 18: think they outnumber the guys who made the success out

1268
01:08:44,080 --> 01:08:49,400
Speaker 18: of it significantly. So diversification is sill a fantastic strategy

1269
01:08:49,439 --> 01:08:53,799
Speaker 18: to my mind, in a for for any portfolio. And

1270
01:08:53,800 --> 01:08:57,160
Speaker 18: and just keep on diversifying that portfolio. Don't take these

1271
01:08:57,160 --> 01:09:00,680
Speaker 18: big bets you never know what were gold.

1272
01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:01,000
Speaker 2: Or something like that.

1273
01:09:01,040 --> 01:09:04,680
Speaker 18: You never know perhaps tomorrow they I don't know what

1274
01:09:04,720 --> 01:09:06,479
Speaker 18: could get gold down. At the moment, it looks like

1275
01:09:06,520 --> 01:09:09,719
Speaker 18: everything is just pushing it up, but it can start

1276
01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:11,360
Speaker 18: to move move against you.

1277
01:09:11,479 --> 01:09:13,120
Speaker 2: And if you've made two bigger bits.

1278
01:09:13,640 --> 01:09:17,280
Speaker 18: It's it's going to hurt your your portfolio massively well

1279
01:09:17,320 --> 01:09:21,200
Speaker 18: divers well diversified portfolio is the way you sleep while

1280
01:09:21,240 --> 01:09:21,559
Speaker 18: at night.

1281
01:09:22,760 --> 01:09:25,599
Speaker 2: Investment School on the Money Show. You speaking to Stefan Engelbreck,

1282
01:09:25,680 --> 01:09:28,240
Speaker 2: portfolio manager for Marsie next Gen and they've governed the

1283
01:09:28,240 --> 01:09:31,559
Speaker 2: portfolio manager at rand Swiss. How do you invest in

1284
01:09:31,640 --> 01:09:35,160
Speaker 2: volatile times? We have this conversation again next week. It's

1285
01:09:35,200 --> 01:09:36,320
Speaker 2: ten minute stage.

1286
01:09:36,760 --> 01:09:39,439
Speaker 11: The Money Show with Stephen Quets is brought to you

1287
01:09:39,520 --> 01:09:43,080
Speaker 11: by abs as cib a Pan African bank invested in.

1288
01:09:43,080 --> 01:09:46,440
Speaker 4: Your story and the potential it can unlock because.

1289
01:09:46,280 --> 01:09:49,840
Speaker 11: Your story matters, as as the Rester, the FSP.

1290
01:09:51,439 --> 01:09:54,080
Speaker 4: The Money Show, Investment School.

1291
01:09:53,880 --> 01:09:57,799
Speaker 2: How do you survive these volatile markets? Stefan Engelbrech's portfolio

1292
01:09:57,800 --> 01:10:01,960
Speaker 2: manager at Massie next Gen with governor's at Ramswiss. Okay,

1293
01:10:02,160 --> 01:10:06,599
Speaker 2: so how would you protect against an extreme geopolitical event?

1294
01:10:06,760 --> 01:10:09,600
Speaker 2: So yes, that President Trump says he's not going to

1295
01:10:09,680 --> 01:10:11,000
Speaker 2: use force to take Greenland?

1296
01:10:11,520 --> 01:10:12,200
Speaker 5: What if he did?

1297
01:10:12,479 --> 01:10:15,840
Speaker 2: What if something happens in the Russia Ukraine conflict or

1298
01:10:15,880 --> 01:10:19,200
Speaker 2: in the Middle East and Iran and oil? Are there

1299
01:10:19,280 --> 01:10:21,439
Speaker 2: certain ways you can protect yourself against that.

1300
01:10:22,040 --> 01:10:24,160
Speaker 10: Yeah, look, I mean short of the prepper with the

1301
01:10:24,200 --> 01:10:28,839
Speaker 10: you know, the bunker, etc. There are capital protected instruments

1302
01:10:28,880 --> 01:10:31,200
Speaker 10: that will just rely on the fact that the issuer

1303
01:10:31,840 --> 01:10:35,200
Speaker 10: stays liquid, you know, stay is a credit worthy Since

1304
01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:37,200
Speaker 10: two thousand and eight, I think we've got to a point,

1305
01:10:37,280 --> 01:10:39,759
Speaker 10: especially with the new rules coming around around you know lenders,

1306
01:10:39,760 --> 01:10:41,960
Speaker 10: it's on that you can pretty much trust bank credit

1307
01:10:41,960 --> 01:10:43,479
Speaker 10: to a large extent that you could have for quite

1308
01:10:43,479 --> 01:10:45,479
Speaker 10: some time. And so if you have a thing backed

1309
01:10:45,479 --> 01:10:47,840
Speaker 10: by a BBVA or a backed by one of the

1310
01:10:47,840 --> 01:10:50,360
Speaker 10: major banks created like a rated banks in the world,

1311
01:10:50,520 --> 01:10:52,160
Speaker 10: you can be pretty sure that you know they will

1312
01:10:52,240 --> 01:10:54,280
Speaker 10: keep their promises. And if they basically give you a

1313
01:10:54,360 --> 01:10:56,519
Speaker 10: capital guaranteed products or they give you a product that

1314
01:10:56,680 --> 01:10:58,560
Speaker 10: will give you a certain outcome range of outcomes in

1315
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:02,000
Speaker 10: certa of circumstances. That's a way to basically protect yourself

1316
01:11:02,040 --> 01:11:04,800
Speaker 10: and still get upside because the world does go you know,

1317
01:11:05,040 --> 01:11:07,519
Speaker 10: like you say crazy like that, but in the bank

1318
01:11:07,600 --> 01:11:09,200
Speaker 10: is not as valuable as it could be, especially if

1319
01:11:09,200 --> 01:11:12,479
Speaker 10: inflation takes off, and if you know, AI stily takes

1320
01:11:12,479 --> 01:11:14,559
Speaker 10: off as the way it does. Elon Musterday says stop

1321
01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:16,320
Speaker 10: saving for the future of plast couple day says, stop

1322
01:11:16,360 --> 01:11:18,800
Speaker 10: staying for the future, don't worry about retirement. It's all

1323
01:11:18,840 --> 01:11:20,519
Speaker 10: going to be like, you know, free money into the future.

1324
01:11:20,960 --> 01:11:21,679
Speaker 5: Who knows.

1325
01:11:21,920 --> 01:11:24,800
Speaker 10: But I do think that there are instruments available that

1326
01:11:24,840 --> 01:11:27,040
Speaker 10: if you just got to set your side, you set

1327
01:11:27,120 --> 01:11:30,559
Speaker 10: up up your yourrec criteria, how much risk do you

1328
01:11:30,560 --> 01:11:32,360
Speaker 10: want to take, what's your upside you want to get

1329
01:11:32,400 --> 01:11:34,080
Speaker 10: up to get to reduce your resk of the level

1330
01:11:34,360 --> 01:11:36,200
Speaker 10: there will be a product that fulfalls those needs if

1331
01:11:36,200 --> 01:11:39,120
Speaker 10: you're sensible about it, and then invest in those things,

1332
01:11:39,160 --> 01:11:41,400
Speaker 10: as opposed to just saying you know, I will invest

1333
01:11:41,400 --> 01:11:44,519
Speaker 10: because historically the market does eventually rise after seven years

1334
01:11:44,560 --> 01:11:47,800
Speaker 10: or thirteen years or fifteen years. The seven years, thirty

1335
01:11:47,880 --> 01:11:49,439
Speaker 10: years of fifteen years is a long period of time

1336
01:11:49,439 --> 01:11:51,839
Speaker 10: when a human life stefan.

1337
01:11:51,920 --> 01:11:54,639
Speaker 2: I mean, are there things you can sort of fields

1338
01:11:54,640 --> 01:11:56,479
Speaker 2: you can go into to try and avoid that kind

1339
01:11:56,520 --> 01:11:59,599
Speaker 2: of geopolitical risk? I mean, it seems to me that

1340
01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:02,280
Speaker 2: the next ten years we will probably have more geopolitical

1341
01:12:02,280 --> 01:12:07,080
Speaker 2: shots than we had in the previous ten almost certainly.

1342
01:12:07,880 --> 01:12:10,240
Speaker 18: Well, yeah, I mean that they have been monitoring these

1343
01:12:10,280 --> 01:12:13,360
Speaker 18: geopolitical tensions over the past few years and yeah, I

1344
01:12:13,360 --> 01:12:16,759
Speaker 18: think last year was a record since since the Second

1345
01:12:16,760 --> 01:12:20,840
Speaker 18: World War or something like that. Yeah, I mean, once again,

1346
01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:23,760
Speaker 18: I will just highlight diversification. And I knew you were

1347
01:12:23,760 --> 01:12:27,040
Speaker 18: going to say that. I'm starting to sound like a

1348
01:12:27,080 --> 01:12:29,200
Speaker 18: broken record a little bit. Yeah, but yes, I mean

1349
01:12:29,280 --> 01:12:33,880
Speaker 18: it's it's don't pre empty these things. You don't you

1350
01:12:33,920 --> 01:12:36,240
Speaker 18: don't know what is going to happen. You don't know

1351
01:12:36,280 --> 01:12:40,160
Speaker 18: whether the market is going to actually just dismiss it entirely,

1352
01:12:41,479 --> 01:12:44,800
Speaker 18: and it's it's just a good strategy to keep on

1353
01:12:44,880 --> 01:12:49,479
Speaker 18: investing the way you have been. Time is the greatest

1354
01:12:50,840 --> 01:12:55,760
Speaker 18: friend of the investor, even during times when politics is

1355
01:12:56,360 --> 01:12:59,320
Speaker 18: it's causing a lot of havoc on the news screens.

1356
01:13:00,479 --> 01:13:01,840
Speaker 2: I'm going to put this to both of you, but

1357
01:13:01,960 --> 01:13:06,000
Speaker 2: Viview first, It's this South Africa's moment because if you

1358
01:13:06,040 --> 01:13:09,080
Speaker 2: look around the world, I mean, yes, okay, gold helps

1359
01:13:09,439 --> 01:13:12,680
Speaker 2: things seem to be coming together. Capital has got to

1360
01:13:12,720 --> 01:13:15,840
Speaker 2: go somewhere. This is a good moment for South Africa markets,

1361
01:13:15,920 --> 01:13:16,879
Speaker 2: south African investing.

1362
01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:20,479
Speaker 10: Look, I think we've had a vibe shift since the election,

1363
01:13:20,640 --> 01:13:23,240
Speaker 10: but we haven't had the actual underlying economic performance that

1364
01:13:23,280 --> 01:13:26,439
Speaker 10: we need to see come through Unfortunately, we kind of live

1365
01:13:26,400 --> 01:13:27,639
Speaker 10: in a world where the US is growing up three

1366
01:13:27,680 --> 01:13:29,559
Speaker 10: times faster than we are. Yeah, it just doesn't make

1367
01:13:29,600 --> 01:13:31,840
Speaker 10: sense from an economic point of view. We need to

1368
01:13:31,840 --> 01:13:34,840
Speaker 10: see that economic growth come through. The danger I see

1369
01:13:34,920 --> 01:13:37,479
Speaker 10: right now is the technologies that are occurring are both

1370
01:13:37,680 --> 01:13:39,840
Speaker 10: very powerful and sickly. None of it is happening in

1371
01:13:39,840 --> 01:13:42,360
Speaker 10: South Africa, and that is the real danger here. We

1372
01:13:43,200 --> 01:13:45,240
Speaker 10: are in danger of if this thing does take off,

1373
01:13:45,600 --> 01:13:47,839
Speaker 10: being left behind like we were in the Industrial Revolution,

1374
01:13:48,120 --> 01:13:49,840
Speaker 10: and we know how that turned off for the Third World.

1375
01:13:49,880 --> 01:13:51,520
Speaker 10: It didn't look very nice afterwards.

1376
01:13:52,400 --> 01:13:54,640
Speaker 2: Stefani, you may be a bit more optimistic. I mean,

1377
01:13:54,680 --> 01:13:56,719
Speaker 2: I would say, but we have platinum and you're probably

1378
01:13:56,760 --> 01:13:58,960
Speaker 2: going to need that, and we have ferrochrome and you're

1379
01:13:58,960 --> 01:14:01,839
Speaker 2: probably going to need that, and we have you know, diamonds.

1380
01:14:01,920 --> 01:14:02,600
Speaker 2: No one needs that.

1381
01:14:03,439 --> 01:14:05,960
Speaker 18: Yeah, I mean, listen, you can still think of very

1382
01:14:06,000 --> 01:14:09,680
Speaker 18: negative things to say about South Africa, but if you

1383
01:14:09,720 --> 01:14:12,519
Speaker 18: look at the trends in South Africa, it's actually looking

1384
01:14:12,600 --> 01:14:19,000
Speaker 18: quite good. Our governmance, government's finances are actually improving. You

1385
01:14:19,040 --> 01:14:22,479
Speaker 18: can't say that about a lot of governments anymore. We

1386
01:14:22,600 --> 01:14:25,200
Speaker 18: have a central like my colleagues stated to joke that

1387
01:14:25,240 --> 01:14:27,439
Speaker 18: South Africa is probably one of the few countries that

1388
01:14:27,560 --> 01:14:31,439
Speaker 18: still has a proper monetary policy framework relative to the

1389
01:14:31,439 --> 01:14:33,760
Speaker 18: rest of the world. It's funny to think about it

1390
01:14:33,800 --> 01:14:36,639
Speaker 18: like that, but we have where we have raised interest

1391
01:14:36,680 --> 01:14:39,640
Speaker 18: rates with inflation is too high and we'll cut it

1392
01:14:39,680 --> 01:14:42,960
Speaker 18: when inflation is lower. We actually use monetary policies so

1393
01:14:43,200 --> 01:14:46,720
Speaker 18: the way it should be doing So. There are a

1394
01:14:46,760 --> 01:14:49,639
Speaker 18: lot of things that actually is stacking up for South

1395
01:14:49,640 --> 01:14:54,559
Speaker 18: Africa and we are probably now the less ugly girl

1396
01:14:55,680 --> 01:15:00,360
Speaker 18: at the Dods floor. It's there are a lot of issues,

1397
01:15:00,880 --> 01:15:04,920
Speaker 18: but we're starting to look quite interesting. It's interesting now

1398
01:15:04,960 --> 01:15:07,840
Speaker 18: people are starting to to not discuss when are we

1399
01:15:07,880 --> 01:15:10,920
Speaker 18: going to be downgraded any further, it is when are

1400
01:15:10,960 --> 01:15:14,000
Speaker 18: we being upgraded? Can we actually get investment grade again?

1401
01:15:14,240 --> 01:15:16,439
Speaker 18: I mean, there's a big change from where we were

1402
01:15:16,439 --> 01:15:18,880
Speaker 18: in the past, and the market is always about those

1403
01:15:18,920 --> 01:15:22,559
Speaker 18: incremental changes. The second derivative of the of the trend,

1404
01:15:22,960 --> 01:15:26,160
Speaker 18: and that is definitely in South Africa's favor. Yet I

1405
01:15:26,160 --> 01:15:28,840
Speaker 18: do agree with whether there we do need to get

1406
01:15:28,880 --> 01:15:33,000
Speaker 18: that growth and we do need to get unemployment under control.

1407
01:15:33,320 --> 01:15:35,360
Speaker 2: Whether we've got thirty seconds if you just buy the

1408
01:15:35,400 --> 01:15:40,240
Speaker 2: index doesn't you know, pick one America's ours. You, despite

1409
01:15:40,479 --> 01:15:43,840
Speaker 2: this period of unbelievable uncertainty, would still make quite a

1410
01:15:43,880 --> 01:15:44,400
Speaker 2: lot of money.

1411
01:15:44,840 --> 01:15:47,519
Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean, look obviously dark edders that were the uncertainty.

1412
01:15:47,560 --> 01:15:49,800
Speaker 10: Like I said, like in the early two thousands, thirteen years,

1413
01:15:49,880 --> 01:15:53,920
Speaker 10: S and P flat to negative. If you think in indexes,

1414
01:15:53,960 --> 01:15:55,799
Speaker 10: you think where to go, but you have the ability

1415
01:15:55,920 --> 01:15:58,120
Speaker 10: or don't have the ability to check the risk by

1416
01:15:58,240 --> 01:16:01,479
Speaker 10: a structure of that index capital protects you know, one

1417
01:16:01,560 --> 01:16:04,040
Speaker 10: hundred percent and then say, okay, I'm going to take

1418
01:16:04,160 --> 01:16:06,080
Speaker 10: the average market return of that thing over the lastly

1419
01:16:06,120 --> 01:16:08,920
Speaker 10: ten years or something as my opside that's available, and

1420
01:16:08,960 --> 01:16:11,080
Speaker 10: that's something you can do. It's not gonna make you

1421
01:16:11,120 --> 01:16:13,240
Speaker 10: the fortunes that you will not get by buying the

1422
01:16:13,240 --> 01:16:15,280
Speaker 10: single stuff that goes up one hundred and or two

1423
01:16:15,320 --> 01:16:17,840
Speaker 10: hundred times, but it will make sure that you don't

1424
01:16:17,880 --> 01:16:19,320
Speaker 10: have the chance of losing everything.

1425
01:16:20,080 --> 01:16:22,559
Speaker 2: Verve Governor, thank you so much. Portfolio manager at rand

1426
01:16:22,600 --> 01:16:25,320
Speaker 2: Swis Stefan engl Brecht, good to see you again. Portfolio

1427
01:16:25,320 --> 01:16:28,080
Speaker 2: manager for Mazzi next Gen at Maxi Acid. Thank you

1428
01:16:28,120 --> 01:16:31,440
Speaker 2: both very much, indeed for coming in on Investment School tonight.

1429
01:16:31,800 --> 01:16:34,479
Speaker 11: The Money Show with Stephen Quetez is brought to you

1430
01:16:34,560 --> 01:16:38,000
Speaker 11: by abs A cib a Pan African bank invested in

1431
01:16:38,080 --> 01:16:41,160
Speaker 11: your story and the potential it can unlock it because

1432
01:16:41,320 --> 01:16:42,920
Speaker 11: your story matters.

1433
01:16:43,240 --> 01:16:44,519
Speaker 4: APPS is the Rester FSP.

1434
01:16:45,439 --> 01:16:48,679
Speaker 2: Talking of volatility, The Dow Jones is up a full

1435
01:16:48,760 --> 01:16:51,920
Speaker 2: percent one up one point zero five percent, the NASTEC

1436
01:16:52,000 --> 01:16:54,639
Speaker 2: up one point one, the S and P five hundred

1437
01:16:54,760 --> 01:16:57,679
Speaker 2: up point eight one. It's supper time time for attacker.

1438
01:16:57,720 --> 01:16:58,400
Speaker 2: It's eight o'clock