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Speaker 1: In case you didn't know, it was International Maths Day

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Speaker 1: this past Saturday, which gives us a good excuse to

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Speaker 1: chat about the issue of maths anxiety today and about

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Speaker 1: the fact that South African learners are unfortunately turning their

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Speaker 1: back on pure maths in quite large numbers and for

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Speaker 1: a variety of reasons. Earlier this year, the Basic Education

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Speaker 1: Minister Sevier Jube raised the alarm on this. She revealed

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Speaker 1: that more than four hundred high schools in South Africa

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Speaker 1: don't even offer pure maths to their pupils as a

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Speaker 1: choice for metric Now. In twenty twenty four, only thirty

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Speaker 1: eight percent of learners opted for maths. The remaining what

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Speaker 1: would that be sixty two point sixty two percent? I

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Speaker 1: hope my maths is okay. That means sixty two percent

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Speaker 1: we're doing maths lit. Thirty eight percent doing pure maths

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Speaker 1: if you want to call it that. That figure reduced

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty five. The class of twenty twenty five

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Speaker 1: saw only thirty four percent of its learners taking pure maths,

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Speaker 1: and unfortunately, the subject results also showed a backward slide,

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Speaker 1: the pass rate going from sixty nine percent for pure

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Speaker 1: maths in twenty twenty five, four to sixty four percent

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty five, and there were fewer distinctions earned

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Speaker 1: in the subject as well, so a lot to be

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Speaker 1: concerned about, and the Minister pointed to a combination of

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Speaker 1: low demand for the subject and also poor resourcing of

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Speaker 1: the subject by way of explanation. But today we want

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Speaker 1: to ask if there is more to it than that yet. Yes,

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Speaker 1: obviously the availability of qualified maths teachers and textbooks and

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Speaker 1: other resources is crucial, but is there another factor at

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Speaker 1: play here? Namely perceptions around maths and pupil's anxieties about

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Speaker 1: their ability to master maths and feel confident in the subject.

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Speaker 1: These are attitudes that are often embedded way before they

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Speaker 1: are making high school subject choices. And to talk to

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Speaker 1: us about this idea of maths anxiety and how we

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Speaker 1: can help pupils overcome it. It's a great pleasure to

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Speaker 1: welcome to the show Keith Moodley, who is Learning design

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Speaker 1: and pedagogical lead for STEM Subjects at the Spark Schools. Keith,

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Speaker 1: it's great to have you with us on the show

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Speaker 1: this afternoon.

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Speaker 2: Welcome, hi people, it's really a pleasure to be on

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Speaker 2: your show this afternoon. And thank you for having me

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Speaker 2: and this opportunity.

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Speaker 1: It's a huge pleasure. I think important to say up front, Keith.

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Speaker 1: Of course, not everybody is going to excel at pure maths.

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Speaker 1: There is a reason we have a choice between the

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Speaker 1: two subjects. And nobody is wanting to say that everybody

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Speaker 1: should be doing maths pure maths or that everybody must

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Speaker 1: do it. But the bigger picture is really around what

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Speaker 1: we are losing if we are not encouraging those peopils

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Speaker 1: who could excel at pure maths and who want to

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Speaker 1: pursue career opportunities and future prospects that will need pure maths.

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Speaker 1: Are we doing enough to make sure that they are

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Speaker 1: kept hooked into the subject. What do you mean when

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Speaker 1: you talk about the concept of maths anxiety keeping some

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Speaker 1: of those peoples away from the subject.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for that, Peopa. Yeah, I think it's really really

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Speaker 2: imperative to look at it in many different you know,

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Speaker 2: focal points. But maths anxiety is essentially a feeling of chest,

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Speaker 2: fear or panic that scholars experience when they have to

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Speaker 2: engage with maths. It can show up in different ways.

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Speaker 2: You know, some scholars freeze during examinations or tests, others

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Speaker 2: avoid participating in class discussions or direct discussions with a teacher,

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Speaker 2: and some immediately believe they are not good at maths.

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Speaker 2: And and that's the focused point that we want to

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Speaker 2: move away from. Particularly in South Africa, it's actually very common.

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Speaker 2: Many scholars develop negative feelings towards maths quite early in

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Speaker 2: their schooling, and by the time they reach the later grades,

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Speaker 2: a large number have already convinced themselves that maths is

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Speaker 2: simply not for them. And this is not true. It

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Speaker 2: becomes a barrier not only to learning maths, but also

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Speaker 2: to developing confidence in problem solving more broadly. And what

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Speaker 2: is concerning is that you know, this anxiety often goes

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Speaker 2: unnoticed or is mistaken for relack of ability. In reality,

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Speaker 2: many scholars have the potential to succeed, but I held

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Speaker 2: back by fear, which affects how they engage, participate, and

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Speaker 2: ultimately perform in the subject.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, Keith, I mean, unfortunately many of us know.

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Speaker 1: It can take one teacher's throw away comment telling you

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Speaker 1: you're bad at a subject or you really haven't got

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Speaker 1: a head for maths, for example. Can can you know?

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Speaker 1: That becomes a self perpetuating belief that is internalized and

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Speaker 1: becomes almost true. Conversely, you can have a teacher encourage

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Speaker 1: you in that way and change your life by sort

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Speaker 1: of unlocking a passion for a subject simply by saying

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Speaker 1: something that that impacts you at the right time. But

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Speaker 1: I mean, we can't blame this all on teachers, Keith.

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Speaker 1: Is some of the pressure also coming from parents who

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Speaker 1: are worried about maybe my child won't cope with pure maths,

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Speaker 1: and maybe that will bring their atric average down and

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Speaker 1: impact their ability to get into the field of study

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Speaker 1: that they want to pursue. Is there that anxiety that

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Speaker 1: we are perhaps encouraging some or discouraging some kids from

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Speaker 1: taking pure maths because we are worried that it might

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Speaker 1: bring down their average.

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Speaker 2: Yes, most definitely. I think it's it's how we we

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Speaker 2: how teachers actually approach, you know, to reinforce or reduce

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Speaker 2: that maths anxiety in the classroom. So teaching approaches play

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Speaker 2: a huge road here and and and that that reflection

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Speaker 2: of mathematics. You know, if the classroom environment emphasizes speed, memorization,

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Speaker 2: and right or wrong answers, you know, scholars can feel

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Speaker 2: constant pressure at times, and that pressure often reinforces the

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Speaker 2: idea that you know, mats is something you either get

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Speaker 2: or you don't. And that's how scholars are are negatively

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Speaker 2: impacted and and and they thought process is negatively impacted.

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Speaker 2: On the other hand, you know, when teachers focus on understanding, discussion,

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Speaker 2: and problem solving, scholars start to see math in a

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Speaker 2: different way. When mistakes are treated as part of the

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Speaker 2: learning process rather than something to be punished about, scholars

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Speaker 2: become more willing to try, and that reduces anxiety, you know, significantly,

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Speaker 2: So both for teachers and parents, I think it's important

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Speaker 2: to take that approach where you actually open up, you know,

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Speaker 2: rhetorical parts of mathematics rather than just right or wrong answers.

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Speaker 2: It's also important that teachers create that space for all scholars,

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Speaker 2: you know, to participate at their level, because when scholars

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Speaker 2: feel seen and supported, they are far more likely to

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Speaker 2: engage and build confidence over time in the subject.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Keith, you've referenced confidence and problem solving several times now,

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Speaker 1: and let's talk a little bit about what the risk

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Speaker 1: is if we don't encourage our scholars to carry on

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Speaker 1: working on those skills. Because it's one thing to say, well,

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Speaker 1: mathlet and mathlet does I know offers very constructive, practical,

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Speaker 1: useful information that that many learners find that they do

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Speaker 1: apply in real life after school. But what are we

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Speaker 1: losing when a child you could have succeeded in pure

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Speaker 1: maths is discouraged from taking it, either because their school

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Speaker 1: doesn't feel resourced to offer it, or because they have

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Speaker 1: developed maths anxiety because the way it was taught. What

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Speaker 1: is the potential knock on impact not just on their future,

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Speaker 1: but on the country's future if we lose large numbers

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Speaker 1: of peoples who aren't being encouraged to acquire those problem

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Speaker 1: solving skills.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think thanks for that. I think, yeah, I

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Speaker 2: think you know math skills you know is still important

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Speaker 2: for future careers and even for scholars who don't plan

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Speaker 2: to go into those stem fills. Maths is not just

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Speaker 2: about becoming an engineer or a scientist. It develops, you know,

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Speaker 2: critical thinking, problem solving, and logical reasoning skills that are

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Speaker 2: valuable in almost every career. Whether someone goes into business, healthcare,

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Speaker 2: the arts, or entrepreneurship, they will still need to interpret information,

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Speaker 2: you know, manage budgets, analyze data, and make informed decisions.

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Speaker 2: So it's just about linking mathematics to that real world

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Speaker 2: problem solving that we undergo on a daily basis. So

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Speaker 2: I would say strong numerousy skills gifts scholars and people

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Speaker 2: at large the confidence to engage with the world in

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Speaker 2: a more analytical and independent way. And I think beyond careers,

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Speaker 2: maths also plays it all in everyday life, you know,

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Speaker 2: from managing personal finances to inform choices. So it's really

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Speaker 2: about equipping our scholars with life skills, not just academic

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Speaker 2: knowledge in mathematics.

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Speaker 1: Really interesting comments in here from Louis who says my

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Speaker 1: mom taught high school pure maths for more than fifty

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Speaker 1: years and sadly watched the decline of the subject. She

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Speaker 1: says has two main observations. He writes, Firstly, the foundation

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Speaker 1: basics are not being taught, and this leads to students

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Speaker 1: falling behind almost as soon as they begin, when they

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Speaker 1: might well have excelled had they learned those basics correctly.

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Speaker 1: This is just gets worse then as they progress through

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Speaker 1: their schooling, leading to the subject ultimately being abandoned. And

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Speaker 1: then he says, she phrases it beautifully, stopping maths automatically

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Speaker 1: closes so many career doors which otherwise might have remained

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Speaker 1: open to the students. So, okay, two points well made.

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Speaker 1: And we've spoken a little bit about the career opportunities,

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Speaker 1: and I think your point very well made Keith, that

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Speaker 1: just because you're not going into a maths or science

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Speaker 1: based career, it doesn't mean that the skills you're learning

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Speaker 1: in pure maths are not valuable to you. But let's

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Speaker 1: circle back to that first point about the foundations, and

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Speaker 1: we're talking here about the crucial role of appointing the

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Speaker 1: right kind of teacher in the foundation phase to lay

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Speaker 1: those building blocks down solidly so that every child is

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Speaker 1: at least giving the opportunity to try and excel. What

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Speaker 1: strategies do you think need to be introduced to correct

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Speaker 1: the decline that we are seeing in the love of

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Speaker 1: the subject and the embracing of the subject.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for that, Peper. Yes. I think linking to the

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Speaker 2: first comment there, and it really goes back to asking ourselves,

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Speaker 2: why is it important for scholars to build that strong,

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Speaker 2: numerousy foundations in the earlier grades? And I think in

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Speaker 2: my view, the earlier years are where scholars developed their

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Speaker 2: A number sense, you know, they first encounter with mathematics,

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Speaker 2: the first encounter with numbers and understanding you know, for example,

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Speaker 2: quantities or patterns and how numbers work together. And these

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Speaker 2: foundations are critical because you know, MAX would build on

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Speaker 2: itself as we create those synergies between those grades that

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Speaker 2: we encounter mats with. If a scholar doesn't fully grasp

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Speaker 2: these earlier concepts, each new topic becomes harder to understand,

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Speaker 2: and by the time they reach the higher grades or

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Speaker 2: the latter grades, they may be trying to learn complex

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Speaker 2: ideas or complex concepts without the foundational skills they need,

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Speaker 2: which can can increase frustration and reinforce negative attitudes towards maths.

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Speaker 2: And I think strong foundations also allow scholors to approach

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Speaker 2: new problems with confidence just because you know, and solely

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Speaker 2: because they have the underlying understanding needed to make sense

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Speaker 2: of what they are learning, rather than simply memorizing steps.

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Speaker 2: You know, sometimes maths could become you know, embarrassing in

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Speaker 2: the classroom looking at it, whether I have that right

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Speaker 2: answer or the wrong answer, And I think, just linking

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Speaker 2: back to my organization and at Spark, you know, this

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Speaker 2: is supported through personalized learning time and where scholars receive

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Speaker 2: targeted instruction, you know, based on their needs. Ensuring that

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Speaker 2: support is immediate and meaningful in the foundation phase, and

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Speaker 2: that progress is continuous for every scholar, and that no

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Speaker 2: scholar is left behind.

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Speaker 1: Ultimately, yeah, well we wish that that might be the

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Speaker 1: opportunity that awaits every learner starting school this year. Keith,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for the interesting insights this afternoon,

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Speaker 1: and really appreciate your time on the show.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Pepa for having me, and have

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Speaker 2: a wonderful day

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Speaker 1: You too, please, Keith smoothly speaking, their learning design and

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Speaker 1: pedagogical lead for STEM subjects at the Spark Schools