Speaker 1: Struggle to political analysis.
Speaker 2: That's right. Welcome back at seventeen minutes past ten writer
Speaker 2: on the Aubri Masango show.
Speaker 1: My name is Komotomdisa.
Speaker 2: I'm Infra brah Ups who's taking a much needed rest
Speaker 2: and it's time now for our political analysis feature. And
Speaker 2: of course we can't ignore the conversation of the weekend,
Speaker 2: the conversation of the day, and I can tell you
Speaker 2: it is going to be the story of the week.
Speaker 1: And there's something really major happens.
Speaker 2: And that is that explosive press briefing from the occasion
Speaker 2: in Police Commissioner Da Mukuana z the General Dandam Muquanazi
Speaker 2: there dropping bombs and.
Speaker 1: It I mean, I've been calling it the chronicles.
Speaker 2: Of South Africa because it's bomb off, the bomb of
Speaker 2: the bomb. And when that press that happened yesterday, I
Speaker 2: don't know about you, but with me, I was watching
Speaker 2: and I was thinking South Africans must feel. So it
Speaker 2: must be a mixed feeling to know that all the
Speaker 2: fears that many of us have had and the speculations
Speaker 2: that many of us have had about what may or
Speaker 2: may not be happening in this country around drug hotels
Speaker 2: and how it could only be that you know, powerful
Speaker 2: people are involved, because what do you mean we're not
Speaker 2: fighting drugs with the capacity that we have here in
Speaker 2: this country. So Africans, I've been saying, I'm sure powerful
Speaker 2: people are involved. I'm sure there's big people behind this.
Speaker 2: And whether or not that's true, the fact that it's
Speaker 2: coming from a senior police officer is mind blowing. It's
Speaker 2: insane because this is a man who's at the forefront
Speaker 2: of crime prevention in his province and a big player
Speaker 2: in this country when it comes to the combating of
Speaker 2: crime and the fact that he's making these claims and
Speaker 2: allegations mind boggling. I tell you, I found myself with
Speaker 2: my draw on the ground because I just thought, wow,
Speaker 2: and as expected, there's been development after development after development,
Speaker 2: and here top Us makes sense of it all is
Speaker 2: political analyst Shumelo Abaout joining us live now on the show. Shumelo,
Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining us this evening. Welcome
Speaker 2: to the open Masamachell.
Speaker 3: Good living in Homoto and toward the listeners, and thank
Speaker 3: you very much for having me this evening.
Speaker 2: Yes, I'm tempted to say to ask first, well, what
Speaker 2: were your thoughts on the press briefing, and I'm sure
Speaker 2: you've been asked this so many times as a political analyst,
Speaker 2: but let's just start there.
Speaker 1: Your thoughts.
Speaker 3: Well, it was very shocking and it left me astonished,
Speaker 3: to say the least, because I think, not to say
Speaker 3: that it's unprecedented, but I think it's really unexpected that
Speaker 3: someone whom we had with high regard, is a minister
Speaker 3: in terms of Kolo, is implicated in something that is
Speaker 3: so serious. And I think, secondly, General Quanas, these revelations
Speaker 3: yesterday actually expose the decay, the institutional decay that is
Speaker 3: generic in South Africa's public sector, not only in steps
Speaker 3: but generally, because I think that he alluded to the
Speaker 3: fact that there are some members of the judiciary as
Speaker 3: well as some law enforcement agencies within the country who
Speaker 3: are involved in this entire syndicate that he was trying
Speaker 3: to highlight. They was trying to paint a picture of yesterday.
Speaker 3: So I think generally we've been seeing these things happening,
Speaker 3: but we never really knew what the genesis or what
Speaker 3: the cracks of everything is. So I think what he
Speaker 3: exposed yesterday is the decay not only in scepts, but
Speaker 3: it was just a sample of what is happening generally
Speaker 3: across institutions in our public sector in South Africa and politically.
Speaker 2: What can we make of this move vime qulanity in
Speaker 2: lights of him having been shortlisted or you know, been
Speaker 2: one of the candidates to take over as Hawk's head
Speaker 2: and then you know that post was withdrawn since on
Speaker 2: Kunu the minister was drawing that that post. I mean,
Speaker 2: we know Thatazi and Severe were among the short listed
Speaker 2: names and you know now that post is gone. But
Speaker 2: also has been a big favorite among many. Yes, he's
Speaker 2: been criticized for his policing style by some, but I
Speaker 2: think he's been a favorite by by most. And now
Speaker 2: this happens, I mean it almost it puts us all
Speaker 2: in a state of confusion about where's he placed now?
Speaker 1: Does he stay a favorites of the people.
Speaker 3: Well, honestly speaking, what I've been observing from the public
Speaker 3: after yesterday's press briefing is that the public is rallying
Speaker 3: behind general because you must remember that ordinary South Africans
Speaker 3: are beginning to lose confidence in South African police service
Speaker 3: at a local level, at a lower level of government,
Speaker 3: because you will find that some people complain about them
Speaker 3: reporting cases of murder, cases of robberies, or cases of
Speaker 3: abuse for that matter, be it domestically or otherwise, and
Speaker 3: them actually not getting the necessary attention that they need.
Speaker 3: I mean, the disappearance of darkness is something that would
Speaker 3: expect at a lower level of this institution, and it's
Speaker 3: been happening for a very long time, by the way,
Speaker 3: So to hear that these things have been happening at
Speaker 3: a national level and with higher ranking political officials and
Speaker 3: office bearers was actually very shocking. And obviously it does
Speaker 3: have political linkages to it, because we do know that,
Speaker 3: for instance, the genesis of this whole thing was in
Speaker 3: regards to the fit of the instituting of the political
Speaker 3: killing tork killing caved in at the Roguanadet mensions, which
Speaker 3: by the way, is the province with the most political
Speaker 3: killings and murders in this country. So it was obviously
Speaker 3: linked to that and him actually deploying members of that
Speaker 3: tossed into Johannesburg and unraveling that happened subsequent to that.
Speaker 3: So obviously, as he had mentioned yesterday, that there are
Speaker 3: a lot of political figures, all big shots, that have
Speaker 3: been involved in this entire operation, and that I've been
Speaker 3: trying to meddle and also ensure that they do not
Speaker 3: get caught, because as he had mentioned it yesterday that
Speaker 3: what what he themained, what actually made him to come
Speaker 3: out about this entire thing is the fact that the
Speaker 3: Deputy National Commissioner of Police, who is Shatrak Shadrack Silia,
Speaker 3: had actually acted at the discretion of the Minister in
Speaker 3: disbanding this trust team that was investigating political killing, which
Speaker 3: actually goes to show that there are political interests and
Speaker 3: in middling that is involved in this entire thing. And
Speaker 3: it also takes me back. I'll actually take you back
Speaker 3: to the time when a similar thing happened whereby Jack
Speaker 3: you Ci Lady, who was then National Commissioner of Police
Speaker 3: in the two thousands, was arrested and convicted, actually sentenced
Speaker 3: in prison for a similar case whereby he was fraternizing
Speaker 3: with drug lords and people who were riding. So this
Speaker 3: is nothing that is very unprecedented. It's something that has
Speaker 3: happened before. And I actually drew a parallel between what
Speaker 3: happened late and what is happening now, which means that
Speaker 3: certain there are remnants of certain things or linkages of
Speaker 3: politicians as well as people in our law enforcement agencies,
Speaker 3: which actually brings our our country security into question because
Speaker 3: once the country dometic security or even defense is being
Speaker 3: tampered with by politicians, they put us at risk of
Speaker 3: being vulnerable to those who are criminals.
Speaker 2: I mean, talk me through the responses politically that have
Speaker 2: come through, you know to what Quality had to say.
Speaker 2: Of course, the NC could not ignore this, the you know,
Speaker 2: questions about whether any this matter.
Speaker 1: Needs to go to the NEEC. We saw.
Speaker 2: I don't know the responses I've been hearing from ANC members,
Speaker 2: from the NCUTH League, from from the Secretary General of
Speaker 2: the NC figure in Ballula. It sounds as though the
Speaker 2: NC is closing ranks, but they also are saying that
Speaker 2: there must be some sort of an investigation into sens
Speaker 2: on Colonel.
Speaker 3: Now, one thing that you should note about the ANC
Speaker 3: is that they will always seek to protect their own.
Speaker 3: I mean, I was not surprised when I heard Colin
Speaker 3: Malatti's the remarks yesterday after the press briefing, which did
Speaker 3: not really have any background off by the way, saying
Speaker 3: that people should be arrested and time for people being
Speaker 3: pop stars is over. You could actually sense that he
Speaker 3: did not have an idea of what he was talking about.
Speaker 3: You were just speaking out of protecting someone for something
Speaker 3: that doesn't even have an idea of. So I think
Speaker 3: the caliber of people that have been that is something
Speaker 3: that would expect from the ANC in terms of them
Speaker 3: protecting such elements or criminal elements. We saw it with
Speaker 3: in the Swiftites administration rather when they were protecting to
Speaker 3: you comes to my Emparliament in regards to the whole
Speaker 3: guy and Thesaga, we saw them actually doing with the
Speaker 3: President Rama course in regards to Pala Pala, and we
Speaker 3: even see the President actually shielding those that are supporting
Speaker 3: him within the ANC, people such as were the Mandasha
Speaker 3: who have by the way, been implicated in the State
Speaker 3: capture report, people like Malusiki Gaba, David Matlubo and the
Speaker 3: list is endless. So it's not something that is unprecedented
Speaker 3: and it didn't come as a surprise that people that
Speaker 3: members or leaders of the ANC would come out in
Speaker 3: defense of something like this. And I think that for
Speaker 3: a change in South Africa, we just need the Lord
Speaker 3: to take its course and we really need to really
Speaker 3: need law enforcement agencies like the NPA to not allow
Speaker 3: themselves to be captured by politicians, and also for politicians
Speaker 3: to use these institutions as weapons against one another, because
Speaker 3: that is what is currently at play now, and that
Speaker 3: also puts the legitimacy off the state in question if
Speaker 3: politicians are being enabled to use these institutions like SAPs
Speaker 3: and the NPA as bridge co weapons against one another,
Speaker 3: because that's what we're being thing unfolding in the ANC,
Speaker 3: that those that are part of a certain cohort are
Speaker 3: safe and then those that are actually actually have a
Speaker 3: dissenting due to the President or certain people in the
Speaker 3: ANC adulthood of which there's an inconsistency in that. And
Speaker 3: you cannot have a country whereby institutions that are supposed
Speaker 3: to uphold democrat or democratic order are being used as
Speaker 3: politic weapons to fight one another.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to.
Speaker 2: Open up the line zero double one double a three
Speaker 2: oh seven two zero double one double a three oh
Speaker 2: seven O two. That's the number two call to make
Speaker 2: your contributions. I mean, how are you feeling about the
Speaker 2: reaction by the ANC, you know, and Parliament that we
Speaker 2: saw today reacting to that groundbreaking explosive press briefing, Ye
Speaker 2: General and Quanazi. If you'd rather send us a WhatsApp.
Speaker 2: It's on zero seven two seven O two one seven
Speaker 2: o two. I'm looking forward to your thoughts on that,
Speaker 2: you know, I want to f I've been thinking, Melo
Speaker 2: that now that we are seeing the ANC at pains
Speaker 2: to almost show to rebrand, you know, and present an
Speaker 2: anti corruption posture, could this be the opportunity that they need,
Speaker 2: you know, to do something or is some send some
Speaker 2: too senior a member and too senior a person in
Speaker 2: the party for him to almost become the example of
Speaker 2: what the ANC can do in this fight against corruption.
Speaker 3: Look, Homoto, I don't see the a n C actually acting.
Speaker 3: I'll speak about the ANC. So speaking about the ANC
Speaker 3: and not the president, but the A and C. Generally.
Speaker 3: Remember in the A n C, the National Executive Committee,
Speaker 3: which is the NEC, is the highest making decision body,
Speaker 3: and there's so much power that is in the NEC,
Speaker 3: and that even the President does not act outside of
Speaker 3: directors that are given to him by the NEC, not
Speaker 3: any other official. By the way, So like I mentioned
Speaker 3: before that the ANC is always is known for protecting
Speaker 3: its own deployees that are in government and those that
Speaker 3: are found that are alleged of wrongdoing in any form
Speaker 3: within government or even though that are not in government,
Speaker 3: within the A and C. So I've been actually saying
Speaker 3: this that the AENC is actually suffering the same state
Speaker 3: as all its counterpart in neighboring countries and other of
Speaker 3: What I mean by that is that it's suffering the
Speaker 3: same state as all other liberation movements in neighboring countries,
Speaker 3: do VANAPF in Zimbabwe and for Limo in Mogandigue, you
Speaker 3: name them, in that they do not want to they
Speaker 3: fail to actually deal with certain things that are negatively
Speaker 3: impacting them. And in South Africa, I think we've seen
Speaker 3: how the public has actually reacted to how the ANC
Speaker 3: has been behaving over the years and that they've been
Speaker 3: declining of the election of the election. So in so
Speaker 3: far as this is called, I really don't see. I
Speaker 3: really don't think that they will act punitively against terms
Speaker 3: of Tony because coming, like I mentioned, is regarded as
Speaker 3: someone of statue in the ANC. Like I said, even
Speaker 3: as Eli Aficans, they didn't expect such from him. Yes,
Speaker 3: there are the investigations that are going to be conducting.
Speaker 3: There's not just there's so much evidence. But the ANC,
Speaker 3: like I said, is always known for protecting its own
Speaker 3: even though the magnitude of the wrongdoing that the person
Speaker 3: is implicated in is so huge, like we find now
Speaker 3: we saw it like I mentioned with Pala Pala, and
Speaker 3: even with the VPS scandal with people like tim to
Speaker 3: seeing Ali and whom they're president, by the way, did
Speaker 3: not act punitively on but chose to move to another ministry,
Speaker 3: which also was a sign of the A and C
Speaker 3: contradicting itself in its renewal project. I think the only
Speaker 3: person that we've seen actually being dealt with in the
Speaker 3: A and C who was implicated in corruption and all
Speaker 3: manner of wrongdoings was as Maacha Shule, who eventually got
Speaker 3: expelled in the party, which goes to show that if
Speaker 3: you get actually read into the dynamics of the ANC,
Speaker 3: you will know that as Maacha Schuler was an anti
Speaker 3: pieces of president I'm a port of Way who was
Speaker 3: still in the ALC. So it goes back to what
Speaker 3: I said that within the ANC, these institutions are being
Speaker 3: used as weapons to fight people that have dissent in
Speaker 3: views with one another, which actually draws on what does
Speaker 3: an inconsistency as well as their not being coherent with
Speaker 3: their renewal program.
Speaker 2: So then, what should South Africans make of the following
Speaker 2: quote from Figel.
Speaker 1: And Baluda the SG.
Speaker 2: He says, the ANC will not defend anywhere wrongdoing. We'll
Speaker 2: get to the bottom of this and all our ministers
Speaker 2: in government must be subjected to process of government in
Speaker 2: terms of good governance, either in Chapter nine institutions or
Speaker 2: even in Parliament. They must account should they be in
Speaker 2: the wrong. We will not hesitate to take action in
Speaker 2: that regard or call for our President to act on them.
Speaker 2: So in this particular instance, we follow the rule of law.
Speaker 2: What should we make of that? That sounds pretty decisive,
Speaker 2: It sounds strong. It says we're not going to protect
Speaker 2: Kuno or anyone else.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's not the first time that we're hearing
Speaker 3: such remarks from the Secretary General in so far as
Speaker 3: a matter of this nature is concerned. When Jim Simulana
Speaker 3: was being implicated in the VPS scandal, he made similar remarks.
Speaker 3: When kumbut And Chabeni was also being implicated in issues
Speaker 3: of corruption when she was still a municipalt manager in
Speaker 3: liim Borbo, he still made the same remarks, but we
Speaker 3: did not see any action there. Are many other people
Speaker 3: within the ANC that has been implicated in wrongdoing and
Speaker 3: the same question has been posed. He still gives similar answers,
Speaker 3: but no action has been taken. I mean, I think
Speaker 3: the beginning of the year they alluded to the fact
Speaker 3: that there will be a committee of some sort that
Speaker 3: will be instituted within the Essuy's office to deal with
Speaker 3: some of the state capture issues. I mean, the report
Speaker 3: is there, the report is there, Why not actually deal
Speaker 3: with these people and investigate further or actually actually recommendations
Speaker 3: that we're given by the State Capture report. So it
Speaker 3: just goes to show that there's no intention in so
Speaker 3: far as dealing with the wrongdoing in the A and
Speaker 3: C is concerned. The issue that the ANC has is
Speaker 3: that it's very polarized and people are using institutions to
Speaker 3: deal with one another instead of being intentional and looking
Speaker 3: at things with an objective eye.
Speaker 2: We're speaking to political analysts Ashuma Lobaba on that explosive
Speaker 2: press briefing by the General and Ganumqnaz in case it
Speaker 2: ends really interesting times that we're living in South Africa,
Speaker 2: and I suppose now the story is what next, which
Speaker 2: is going to be the second part of our of
Speaker 2: our conversation. I want to invite you to make your contributions.
Speaker 2: I see some of your WhatsApps. There someone here saying,
Speaker 2: did I hear right? You actually take the words of
Speaker 2: the SG series.
Speaker 1: I mean he's saying them.
Speaker 2: You know, he's saying them, and I think all we
Speaker 2: can do is listen and wait and see. But are
Speaker 2: you skeptical that the ANC will take any action against
Speaker 2: them who as a senior member of the party or
Speaker 2: any other parliamentarians. I mean we heard him Quanaze saying
Speaker 2: that they are parliamentarians who are involved in this drug syndicate.
Speaker 2: And you know, I think he's got the records and
Speaker 2: he's got the names, and that's why the President has
Speaker 2: promised to get to the bottom of it when he
Speaker 2: comes back.
Speaker 1: I get in touch with us. I want to hear
Speaker 1: from you, and.
Speaker 2: I want to encourage you to call when we still
Speaker 2: have time, and not towards the end of the show,
Speaker 2: when we've got five minutes of What often happens on
Speaker 2: the show is that people wait until five two and
Speaker 2: then there's eight callers and some of you don't get through.
Speaker 2: So please make your contributions heard when there is still time,
Speaker 2: the number is zero double one double eight three oh
Speaker 2: seven oh two zero double one double eight three seven two.
Speaker 2: Do you take what Figula says seriously? Do you think
Speaker 2: the ANC will be dealing with sens On decisively or
Speaker 2: is he just too senior a member for anything to
Speaker 2: actually happen to him? And the outcry that we're seeing
Speaker 2: now from the parliament and opposition parties, what do you
Speaker 2: make of that? One double a three seven two. Shumelo
Speaker 2: Aba is our guest on the show this evening and
Speaker 2: he is a political analyst helping us make sense of
Speaker 2: this particular story tonight and the direction really that I
Speaker 2: want us to take the conversation in now Humeto, is
Speaker 2: the President Posson or actually, before we go there, Shimelo,
Speaker 2: let's highlight the fact that the DA now has written
Speaker 2: to the National Assembly and they want the Speaker Togot
Speaker 2: Diza to have an urgent debate in Parliament on the
Speaker 2: corruption allegations within the National Police Service. I mean, what
Speaker 2: would a debate like that look like? It would be
Speaker 2: base on allegations that have been made by a commissioner
Speaker 2: and case it in surely that that's not how things
Speaker 2: would work.
Speaker 3: Well, this is a matter of national interest Coromoto in
Speaker 3: that it also puts our national security at risk. I
Speaker 3: actually had an interview in another platform earlier on where
Speaker 3: I said that the President has doesn't have a good
Speaker 3: track record in terms of acting punitively against people that
Speaker 3: are implicated and wrongdoing. Like I mentioned that with Timby Simelani,
Speaker 3: didn't act with any punity, didn't act punitively with Timmy Simelani,
Speaker 3: even with a lot more others within the agency such
Speaker 3: as David Masbo, Mada, et cetera. And By. However, with
Speaker 3: this one, I believe that it's a different case in
Speaker 3: that it compromises our security as a country because these
Speaker 3: are very serious allegations and general quanas. It seems to
Speaker 3: have a lot of substantive evidence that is backing everything
Speaker 3: that you allited to. Yesdy, I do be believe that
Speaker 3: there is an urgent intervention that needs to be taken
Speaker 3: by the President and by Parliament in order to have
Speaker 3: a debate, because we've had similar instances before when urgent
Speaker 3: matter has been brought to the fall publicly and then
Speaker 3: Parliament convenience to have an urgent debate. I did actually
Speaker 3: see that the Security and Peace Cluster Portfolio Cluster in
Speaker 3: Parliament today did have the briefing whereby Ian Cameron was
Speaker 3: the Portfolio Committeeture of Police and also made some dining
Speaker 3: allegations in regards to this whole revelation of commission and
Speaker 3: tum qualities. So I do believe that this is a
Speaker 3: matter that needs to be treated with urgency in that
Speaker 3: it puts it puts it implicates our security at our
Speaker 3: nest and security at risk. And there are also other
Speaker 3: people's lives actually that may be involved, may may be
Speaker 3: lost for a lack of the belt term in this country,
Speaker 3: because we do know that in South Africa if you
Speaker 3: are also blower, you're risk losing your life. You saw
Speaker 3: with the late and Pormofole who was an ordered in
Speaker 3: ecolin Unity who subsequently lost his life after acting against
Speaker 3: the corruption that probing the corruption that is happening in
Speaker 3: that municipality. So in South Africa, Finion, we're so blower
Speaker 3: or being someone that actually cracks the work against any
Speaker 3: wrongdoing means that you are putting your life at risk.
Speaker 3: And I think that's a phenomenon that needs to come
Speaker 3: to an end and the President and others that are
Speaker 3: in power need to act punitively and ensuring that people
Speaker 3: who are found or implicated in such cases must be
Speaker 3: must face the might of the law, and you must
Speaker 3: learn to crack the work on these people, irrespective of
Speaker 3: whether or not that in instection in the aenc or
Speaker 3: whether or not they are supporting him in one way
Speaker 3: or the other pact. Everyone is equal to the law
Speaker 3: and they should act accordingly. So I do believe that
Speaker 3: this is an urgent matter and Parliament as well as
Speaker 3: the President, to be specific, should ponder on it carefully
Speaker 3: and also act accordingly, pending all the investigations that are
Speaker 3: yet to be brought to the fore.
Speaker 2: I found it interesting and maybe even a little impressive
Speaker 2: that the President steps aside from his work work at
Speaker 2: the Brick Summit in Rio de Janeiro and he responds
Speaker 2: to these allegations that were made in that press briefing
Speaker 2: in a statement, he says, this is a matter of
Speaker 2: grave national security concern that's receiving the highest priority attention.
Speaker 2: It is vital that the integrity of the country's security
Speaker 2: services is safeguarded.
Speaker 1: And the rule of law is affirmed.
Speaker 2: He then says, or the statement then says President Ramapossa
Speaker 2: will outline the actions to be taken on this matter
Speaker 2: on his return from the Bricks Summit. So I mean
Speaker 2: I got the sense that, oh, okay, he's committing to
Speaker 2: doing something about it.
Speaker 1: But I think the second part of that is what
Speaker 1: can he actually do.
Speaker 3: I mean, he is the president and at the end
Speaker 3: of the day, all the power in so far as
Speaker 3: cases of this nature concern raised on him. Yes, there
Speaker 3: are law enforcement agencies, but as the president, you are
Speaker 3: supposed to be leading the charge and ensuring that people
Speaker 3: within your cabinet or within your cabinet in particular mysticism
Speaker 3: on Trinity is alleged to us to be involved in
Speaker 3: this whole ordeal. Is he should be the one who
Speaker 3: is taking the charge and should be the one who
Speaker 3: is actually ensuring that the necessary steps and measures are
Speaker 3: taken in ensuring that the work is cracked on people
Speaker 3: that are found on the wrong side of the law,
Speaker 3: of which in this case there is clearly a foul
Speaker 3: play in that a task team, which he as the president,
Speaker 3: instituted in twenty eighteen after coming into office, is being
Speaker 3: disbanded without any i won't say any progress, but without
Speaker 3: its work being done. So it should be a matter
Speaker 3: of great concern to him because he was the one
Speaker 3: who was at the forefront of combating political crimes and
Speaker 3: political violence, which I believe led to us being here.
Speaker 3: Like I mentioned earlier on, so the President should be
Speaker 3: able to take the charge and also being sued that
Speaker 3: the law takes its course and not in peed on
Speaker 3: these law enforcement agencies, because we've seen a lot of
Speaker 3: meddling like I mentioned, of politicians in law enforcement agencies,
Speaker 3: and that also makes us as citizens to question the
Speaker 3: independence of these churchline institutions to be specific, such as
Speaker 3: the NPA, even the Hawks and SAPs. Like I said
Speaker 3: that in the moment, the danger of all of this
Speaker 3: if we as South Africans question the legitimates and the
Speaker 3: independence of these institutions is that it puts the legitimacy
Speaker 3: off the state, and it puts the ciminity of the
Speaker 3: states in question, and also makes the state very fragile
Speaker 3: in that if you don't have security as citizens, then
Speaker 3: where are we to go? Because if our security is
Speaker 3: exposed and compromised like this, they didn't mean that as
Speaker 3: citizens we are not states at all. So the president
Speaker 3: should ensure that the number one citizens of the country
Speaker 3: actually leave the charge in ensuring that people are safe
Speaker 3: and that these institutions rew enforcement agencies play their role
Speaker 3: in ensuring that no one should actually get away with
Speaker 3: murder or get away with wrong doing in the manna
Speaker 3: and how Commission Cornery has alluded.
Speaker 2: To, all right, I'm taking your calls and zero double one,
Speaker 2: double a three or several two. We're speaking to political
Speaker 2: un lest who's helping us make sense of the press
Speaker 2: briefing by a case and police Commissioner danam Kanaz, as
Speaker 2: well as the president's response. And really the question is
Speaker 2: what next. Let's go to Akana. You're in Burrier and
Speaker 2: you want to comment on m. Kanazi's claims, grivening, go ahead,
Speaker 2: Hello of them?
Speaker 3: How are you?
Speaker 1: I'm very well, thank you, thank you for calling O'Connor.
Speaker 4: Oh I thank you very much for taking that corner
Speaker 4: as well.
Speaker 5: Actually I wanted my cake is on this guy.
Speaker 1: Lick yeah, Colin malogic.
Speaker 3: President.
Speaker 4: Yes, the statement that made against Quanazi, he said that
Speaker 4: guy in Kanas is actressing the media and acting like
Speaker 4: a pop stars something like that. Yes, yes, and then
Speaker 4: what what I saw to that guy, Look, Juanna's is
Speaker 4: not a politician. First of all, right, and then that guy, uh,
Speaker 4: he's speaking from a political point of view, so which
Speaker 4: means those are two totally different things. And I'd like
Speaker 4: the fact that Quana doesn't well an opinions, just came
Speaker 4: with the issues and the fact and the evidence way,
Speaker 4: so I know all those that the agency that will
Speaker 4: defend those guys that are implicated involved in this corrupt
Speaker 4: and especially in that department, because actually in that department,
Speaker 4: it's all implication after implications, implications after implication. So I
Speaker 4: like that THEA came up with these issues and bring
Speaker 4: them to the public so that we all know and
Speaker 4: those are not opinions, those are the pairts. So the
Speaker 4: guys from the NC don't protect themselves amongst themselves and
Speaker 4: try to debrize the work of Quanas and try to
Speaker 4: make him a politician, of which it's not, because it
Speaker 4: is just a public seving. We're serving us as the
Speaker 4: client of country, because we are the cities.
Speaker 2: No, I hear you, I hear you, eor And do
Speaker 2: you think the ANC will do anything to get to
Speaker 2: the bottom of these claims?
Speaker 5: I really, I don't have a not as should I
Speaker 5: don't have a hope.
Speaker 4: I don't think so, because there are so many cases,
Speaker 4: including yours, Macula, a high, highly profile case, the case
Speaker 4: of Babich who was wosted.
Speaker 5: More what have they just.
Speaker 4: It's the long long story of the law that an
Speaker 4: she's gonna do and it's gonna defend itself. I don't
Speaker 4: think the ANC is gonna do anything against this allegation.
Speaker 1: Yeah O'Connor from Berria, thank you so much for your call.
Speaker 1: We appreciation this.
Speaker 5: Oh, thank you very much.
Speaker 3: Man.
Speaker 1: I suppose you know, Simelo, that's really the sense that
Speaker 1: many people have.
Speaker 2: It's the fact that the ANC serves itself and it's
Speaker 2: people only, and and and what they try and to
Speaker 2: pick to be a party for the people is.
Speaker 1: Just on paper.
Speaker 3: No, honestly, Homoto, because like I mentioned, I think the
Speaker 3: ANC has failed to act against anything that seeks to
Speaker 3: tamper with its integrity as well or taint its integrity
Speaker 3: as well as to moral because if you are a
Speaker 3: party that speaks, that speaks to that speaks for the people,
Speaker 3: and seek to represent those that are downtrodden and marginalized
Speaker 3: and society, you are supposed to actually defend yourself again
Speaker 3: anything that is implicating you and wrongdoing. But I think,
Speaker 3: like I mentioned, previously that the a INC is just
Speaker 3: suffering the same faith as all its counterparts in neighboring
Speaker 3: countries like XANOPF as well as for a limo who
Speaker 3: actually self distract and behave in a manner that is
Speaker 3: unbecoming and a manner that is unethical in society. So
Speaker 3: I think that that's the what the AENC is currently,
Speaker 3: that's the faith that the AENC is currently suffering, and
Speaker 3: that's the direction that it's heading too now in that
Speaker 3: it does not really care about smorral compass and it
Speaker 3: does it seems not to care about protecting its integrity
Speaker 3: because like I mentioned to you, majority of the people
Speaker 3: that are implicated in the Zonder Commission are people who
Speaker 3: are A and CD prois in government and people who
Speaker 3: are have occupied A and C leadership positions before. And
Speaker 3: like I also mentioned, I think the last time we
Speaker 3: had a high profile politician being arrested and being convicted
Speaker 3: was with Jqcleby who was the then National Commissioner of
Speaker 3: Police in two thousand and I think in two thousand
Speaker 3: and four until two thousand and seven when he was
Speaker 3: actually arrested for having received bribes from a drug lord.
Speaker 3: So it just goes to show that right now, the
Speaker 3: caliber of leaders it actually makes us quit the current
Speaker 3: instances that we've been seeing recent years, makes us to
Speaker 3: question the caliber of leaders in their integrity within the
Speaker 3: ancs to whether are they really intentional about this renew
Speaker 3: or that they've been preaching for almost ten years now
Speaker 3: since President came into office, or is it just a
Speaker 3: smoke screen to make us believe that they just want
Speaker 3: to a smoke screen to make us believe that they
Speaker 3: are intentional about cleansing themselves an organization. But clearly for me,
Speaker 3: it's just a lip service which they are using to
Speaker 3: make people believe that they are intentional, whereas they are
Speaker 3: tons and tons of corruption cases and fraud cases that
Speaker 3: are clouding members within the organization. So the issue of
Speaker 3: sense of too currently or the cases generally within the
Speaker 3: A ANDC, I believe that they should be they should
Speaker 3: just let the law take its course. I think that
Speaker 3: whether the A ANDC decides to handle them in a
Speaker 3: different way or protect its own people, but the law
Speaker 3: enforcement agencies should actually take their should actually take their
Speaker 3: play their role now in ensuring that all of these
Speaker 3: people are convicted and those that need to be prosecuted further,
Speaker 3: are prosecuted further without any fear and without any impediments
Speaker 3: from politicians.
Speaker 2: What can we make of the different responses from the
Speaker 2: different people in that are, you know, from the ANC?
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm reading here what Badula said, which basically says,
Speaker 2: you know, people must be held accountable. But then Colin
Speaker 2: Malachi says, but this person should not be a pop star,
Speaker 2: almost villainizing quanity, you know, And it almost seems as though,
Speaker 2: after this press briefing yesterday and ANDC officials were in
Speaker 2: different places and they were called to react or ask
Speaker 2: these questions.
Speaker 1: They had to say something, but their views on this
Speaker 1: are so different, you know.
Speaker 2: The one wing almost seems to create the impression that
Speaker 2: they want accountability, but the other is there again villainizing
Speaker 2: a person that.
Speaker 1: Is essentially what's not blower?
Speaker 2: I mean, isn't that telling about the ANC's posture towards
Speaker 2: people that come out and speak about corruption, especially when it's.
Speaker 1: Their own.
Speaker 3: I think, like I said, it's just putting their integrity
Speaker 3: in question as an organization, because in such instances as
Speaker 3: an organization, you're supposed to speak in one voice. If
Speaker 3: you're an organization, that teaks to protect its image. In
Speaker 3: so far as corruption and wrongdoing is concerned, everyone is
Speaker 3: supposed to speak in one voice. In that you're supposed
Speaker 3: to speak in. Your posture is supposed to be that
Speaker 3: of combating wrongdoing as well as ensuring that people are
Speaker 3: Heal's accountable. But like I said, Collin Malat, you was
Speaker 3: speaking something else, something that didn't even have an idea of,
Speaker 3: by the way, yesterday and then figuring in Baalula, like
Speaker 3: I mentioned that he was just the remark that he's
Speaker 3: been making are not different. There's nothing that he actually
Speaker 3: means intentionally. I think it's just the lip service just
Speaker 3: to get journalists of the of of his case and
Speaker 3: all of that. So there's no there's not really an
Speaker 3: intention to deal with the wrongdoing that they that ministerstmo
Speaker 3: discounting system right now. And I really do not believe
Speaker 3: that the ANC will be intentional in so far as
Speaker 3: dealing with this matter optimally is concerned, because like I mentioned,
Speaker 3: for instance, they did it with Pala Pala with a
Speaker 3: protected peris and drama pasta, and what happened subsequently after
Speaker 3: that is that we saw the former speaker being a
Speaker 3: race after the pa Pala issue was being voted for
Speaker 3: in parliament. We saw her being probed for some corruption
Speaker 3: charges for some corruption and as well as fraud that
Speaker 3: she was implicated. And so it just goes back to
Speaker 3: what I said that his institutions, as well as people
Speaker 3: people that are found of being founded from doing are
Speaker 3: now being used against them. Should they have a dissenting
Speaker 3: view against the president or against those that are close
Speaker 3: to the president. Have the president's here, which is something
Speaker 3: that is very unfortunate and something that speaks to the
Speaker 3: verse that contradicts the very same integrity as well as
Speaker 3: morals that they seek to uphold as an organization.
Speaker 2: So of the WhatsApps, here's someone here saying, I can
Speaker 2: tell you for sure, Commoso, that neither the ends you
Speaker 2: nor the President will act on Minister to mark my words,
Speaker 2: if anything at all. Presidents might just shift him to
Speaker 2: another ministry, as he did with Similiani. Simelo just said
Speaker 2: that on the other hand, he might actually suspend or
Speaker 2: do more m chanizing for his whistle blowing, breaking a
Speaker 2: protocol by going public with his allegations. And I think
Speaker 2: many people are looking to see what the President's response
Speaker 2: will be. He has promised now to respond. So we're
Speaker 2: all looking out there to see what exactly he will
Speaker 2: do and if he will make any major announcements as
Speaker 2: he returns from the Bricks Leader summit in Brazil. All right,
Speaker 2: let's take a call from anonymous that you are in Johannesburg. Anonymous,
Speaker 2: thank you so much.
Speaker 1: For your call. Welcome to the show.
Speaker 5: Helloel were you.
Speaker 1: I'm very well. I hope you will too.
Speaker 5: Please go ahead, yes, man, I just want to default
Speaker 5: your sorry with your gun to do there about comparing
Speaker 5: the ANC with ZANAPF and different nimo, mm hmm. It
Speaker 5: goes to me the ANC is like a more democratic
Speaker 5: party whereby they took their things. Okay, if they are
Speaker 5: something like, for example, now this guy, the general I
Speaker 5: mean took out I mean the secness of the elect
Speaker 5: for example of the minister out into the public, which
Speaker 5: is good for democrats as well, but in for example,
Speaker 5: in Zimbabwe, you can't do those things and authority is
Speaker 5: so for me to compare those two. You remember zan
Speaker 5: is a minister party and the ANC is a political party.
Speaker 5: They do that, they do they think the democrat even
Speaker 5: though they're not I mean real hundred percent like people
Speaker 5: are saying they will always support their Pharoh, guys, last look,
Speaker 5: the president I mean dismissed this minister and the d
Speaker 5: guys they are supporting their guy as well. So that's
Speaker 5: part of politics. But at the end of the day,
Speaker 5: to compare the two, like, I don't think I mean
Speaker 5: they really say anonymous.
Speaker 1: I'll it's a familar to respond to you.
Speaker 2: But don't you think that the the terror is the
Speaker 2: distraction of the ANC through corruption and how they go
Speaker 2: about a corruption right now, there's really clear similarities to
Speaker 2: those of as an APF entry a little more. I
Speaker 2: think that's what Femala is trying to say.
Speaker 5: No, if you look at corruption in politics and my sisters,
Speaker 5: everywhere you hear the trump is whoever put in So
Speaker 5: I mean, for example, in the ANC, we don't ideas
Speaker 5: the corruption is there, but the end of the day,
Speaker 5: they don't deny its like for now, okay, you hear
Speaker 5: this gre saying no, guys, if you never discorrupt, I mean,
Speaker 5: it is posible for himself. So in other ways, the
Speaker 5: NC they said they were trying to rebuild the party,
Speaker 5: so you'll see when the present comes. With the way
Speaker 5: he talked in Brazil there, I mean from his voice,
Speaker 5: so as can with and besides being forced by the
Speaker 5: citizen of this Ranto's current with an at that will
Speaker 5: see many decisions country women to say that they're with
Speaker 5: I mean a good president anonymous.
Speaker 1: Do you believe him? Do you believe Balula?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 5: I believe that is one of the smartest guy men
Speaker 5: politics manly. I mean they call him matas whatever, it's fine,
Speaker 5: but I mean when he talks like this, you see,
Speaker 5: for example, politically they are all left to save their
Speaker 5: careers because if if you I mean support we know
Speaker 5: the minister, well support him in there. But inden of
Speaker 5: the day, if if it's true that I mean involved
Speaker 5: in those those things, I mean, you might be said, aside,
Speaker 5: what do.
Speaker 2: You make What do you make of all the ANC
Speaker 2: officials or ANC members people leaders that have been linked
Speaker 2: and have been highlighted in the State Capture Commission of
Speaker 2: Inquiry that implicated an act of corruption that still remain
Speaker 2: members of the n C and how the ns we've
Speaker 2: seen previously the lip service.
Speaker 1: But no real action. What you make of that?
Speaker 5: No? The thing is I mean, like I said that,
Speaker 5: I mean that is part of the many politics like
Speaker 5: for example, if there's some dill say that. I mean
Speaker 5: the general is not a politician. I mean that that
Speaker 5: is not a lie. You say the generality, I mean
Speaker 5: public work, all public worth. They I mean their voter systems,
Speaker 5: so we ever vote, I mean, is it is he
Speaker 5: I mean involved in politics.
Speaker 2: So so what I'm asking is, why do you believe
Speaker 2: that in Bula will do anything about it and the
Speaker 2: NC will do anything about it? If we've seen previously
Speaker 2: where the NC has not done in fact, they've protected
Speaker 2: their own, why don't you just say why don't you
Speaker 2: just say, I'm I'm comfortable with the fact that they
Speaker 2: protect their own, not that I believe they will do
Speaker 2: anything about it.
Speaker 5: No, this time around there to do something well, for example,
Speaker 5: like the other guy, the other guys in the GNU,
Speaker 5: for example the DA. Yeah they even this, I mean
Speaker 5: calling the present trick against there's two previous ministers. Yes,
Speaker 5: so if so, it's the ncas again that is the
Speaker 5: arrogance I mean to the to the people.
Speaker 2: All right, anonymous from Chinesburg there, I think you know,
Speaker 2: I understand with people, especially people that have experienced either
Speaker 2: design per for freely Moore and they feel that, oh,
Speaker 2: South Africa is still better.
Speaker 1: But don't.
Speaker 2: It's not good enough, is it. There's still stock similarities,
Speaker 2: which is what you're highlighting.
Speaker 3: Well, the most common thing between the reason why I
Speaker 3: threw a parallel between Friendly Moore and a pear from
Speaker 3: the ANC is like I mentioned initially that there are
Speaker 3: all liberation movements in Africa. Yes, the ANC is more
Speaker 3: democratic than the two liberation movements in Zimbabwe as well
Speaker 3: as more than big in that I actually made this
Speaker 3: illusion last year where I said that one thing that
Speaker 3: we can dener we can never announce the A and
Speaker 3: C on is upholding democratic principles within their organization and
Speaker 3: the country as well, whereby we have free and faye
Speaker 3: legs and people can contest each other without any repressive measures. However,
Speaker 3: when it comes to ensuring that we enhance the fragility
Speaker 3: of our state in that we have effective institutions that
Speaker 3: are not politicized and that where politicians don't impeed on
Speaker 3: institutions that are supposed to uphold democracy in South Africa,
Speaker 3: I think that's where the commonalities between the A and
Speaker 3: C and the other liberation movements are. Because if you
Speaker 3: go to Zimbabwe, if you go to Mozambi, you will
Speaker 3: find even other countries within the continent. For instance, in Uganda,
Speaker 3: way president has been in power for more than thirty years,
Speaker 3: you will find similarities whereby institutions that are supposed to
Speaker 3: uphold democracy or law enforcement institutions are now being politicized
Speaker 3: and are also used to suppress those that those that
Speaker 3: have dissenting you to the president all those that are
Speaker 3: in power. So that is what our currenty thing in
Speaker 3: South Africa. I'm growing more and more now where by
Speaker 3: institutions that are supposed to uphold democracy, like for instance,
Speaker 3: the NPA, the South African Police Services. Fortunately the sa
Speaker 3: NTF is not at that level yet, but we are
Speaker 3: seeing growing symptoms that are similar to these countries that
Speaker 3: have that relate by formal liberation movements also growing in
Speaker 3: South Africa in the sense that our ordinary South Africans
Speaker 3: as well as citizens generally are beginning to lose confidence
Speaker 3: now in the very same institutions that are supposed to
Speaker 3: protect us. For instance, Once a law enforcement agency is
Speaker 3: being used to protect politicians, then that means that our
Speaker 3: security is a country and also public trust agains these
Speaker 3: institutions continue to grow, then it means that the illgitimacy
Speaker 3: is something that will follow which will then ultimately lead
Speaker 3: to us becoming a failed state. I always make the
Speaker 3: argument that South Africa is not a failed state yet
Speaker 3: in that there is the form of some form of
Speaker 3: democracy and privileges that you enjoy citizens. However, when it
Speaker 3: comes to institutional effectiveness, I think that's where South Africa
Speaker 3: might actually miss the lot and become like some of
Speaker 3: these other countries that have also other liberation movements that
Speaker 3: failed to uphold democracy and its effectiveness. Because what General one,
Speaker 3: as I mentioned yesterday, in that there was there was
Speaker 3: an instruction to disband a task team which was meant
Speaker 3: to investigate political killings, which is something that is very
Speaker 3: prevalent in our country and it has been prevalent for
Speaker 3: the past ten years or so. Is actually very alarming
Speaker 3: to say the least, because if you are a country
Speaker 3: that seeks to have institutional effectiveness and uphold democracy, then
Speaker 3: why would you actually disband the very same task team
Speaker 3: that is meant to unravel and also bring to light
Speaker 3: things that you are fighting against. Is a country so
Speaker 3: in a way, for looking for the research terms, that
Speaker 3: is something that is a bit country revolutionary, and that
Speaker 3: is something that is irregressive in the sense that it
Speaker 3: does not take us anyway. So I think that's the
Speaker 3: context that I meant when I said that the ANC
Speaker 3: or South Africa generally is following in the same trajectory
Speaker 3: as some of its neighboring countries that have used similar,
Speaker 3: similar tactics to suppress demo, to suppress the democratic order
Speaker 3: in those countries, and to also weaken institutions that are
Speaker 3: supposed to uphold democracy and ensure that there is law
Speaker 3: and order.
Speaker 2: Yep, Sat and List, thank you so much for spending
Speaker 2: your time with us.
Speaker 5: A