WEBVTT - openline 

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<v Speaker 1>It's after 11 o'clock. This is the final hour. Thank

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<v Speaker 1>you very much to all of my guests this evening.

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<v Speaker 1>Professor Susan Boyson in the previous hour just talking about

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<v Speaker 1>the ANC's Concord battle against the IEC at the moment.

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<v Speaker 2>Very, very interesting conversation.

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<v Speaker 1>Just got a message from my very good friend, Advocate Maoufe,

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<v Speaker 1>who is listening to us all the way from Juba

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<v Speaker 1>in South Sudan.

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<v Speaker 2>And he says, Orbs, evening. I'm listening to you as

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<v Speaker 2>always all the way from Juba, South Sudan.

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<v Speaker 1>Orbs, if as per Advocate Berger, SC argued for the

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<v Speaker 1>ANC at the Concord today in the matter involving IEC,

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<v Speaker 1>if there is no act, regulations would state that in

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<v Speaker 1>order for one to submit a submit button as inserted

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<v Speaker 1>by the IEC, legally there is no obligation for anyone

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<v Speaker 1>to do so, even if parties include the ANC have

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<v Speaker 1>been complying with the IEC so-called submit button and press rule.

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<v Speaker 1>But the IEC, to come with any regulations, it must

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<v Speaker 1>first gazette them. It looks like this wasn't complied with

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<v Speaker 1>by the IEC, says the advocate. I suppose, advocate, you're

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<v Speaker 1>correct that If we are going to go a legal

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<v Speaker 1>route in this conversation, then we can get as legalistic

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<v Speaker 1>as we need to be. And that is a very

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<v Speaker 1>legal argument. And there's nothing wrong with a very legal

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<v Speaker 1>argument when you are having a legal conversation.

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<v Speaker 2>But I think you'll agree with me, advocate, that.

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<v Speaker 1>That the very fact that in other occasions the ANC

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<v Speaker 1>has complied with the so-called non-gazetted rules of engagement with

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<v Speaker 1>the electoral process and the IEC, one could argue that

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<v Speaker 1>those rules were very well established in the minds of those.

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<v Speaker 2>That participate, particularly the ANC.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes.

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<v Speaker 1>So, I tend to agree with Professor Boyson that it

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<v Speaker 1>really doesn't matter either way for the IEC in this

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<v Speaker 1>particular issue. If they lose the case, then great. More

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<v Speaker 1>people are enfranchised and people can participate.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And if they win the case, then great.

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<v Speaker 1>They get to enforce and underscore the rule of law,

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<v Speaker 1>as it were. Unfortunately, a great number of people would

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<v Speaker 1>be disenfranchised by that ruling.

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<v Speaker 2>But that's why I'm arguing that.

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<v Speaker 1>This case is not about the IEC or the ANC.

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<v Speaker 1>I think the ANC, in many people's mind, is already

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<v Speaker 1>understood to have been tardy in this particular case.

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<v Speaker 2>They should have pressed the button on time. True, yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>And yes, I suppose as part of the.

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<v Speaker 1>Legal game, they can advance the argument that you're advancing there.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's a perfectly valid argument in the argument, in

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<v Speaker 1>the legal argument. And you could even go further and say, well, Aubrey,

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<v Speaker 1>this is a legal conversation. So what other arguments can

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<v Speaker 1>we bring? And I fold in that sense. But I'm

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<v Speaker 1>not in a court of law. I'm in the court

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<v Speaker 1>of public opinion. And I'm arguing that the ANC has

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<v Speaker 1>done what– political parties have over the years become known

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<v Speaker 1>to do, and that is not to perform when they

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<v Speaker 1>are required to perform.

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<v Speaker 2>So nothing surprising there.

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<v Speaker 1>And that the IEC is doing what it ought to

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<v Speaker 1>be doing, and that is playing.

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<v Speaker 2>The game of a fair referee.

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<v Speaker 1>And they've taken this matter now to the ultimate court,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's the constitutional court.

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<v Speaker 2>The real trial here.

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<v Speaker 1>Is whether or not the constitutional court has the required

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<v Speaker 1>wisdom to deal with this very difficult situation. And by

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<v Speaker 1>the way, it's not just this case that the constitutional

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<v Speaker 1>court is being scrutinized for. It is the very purpose

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<v Speaker 1>of the existence of the Constitutional Court, our Constitution and

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<v Speaker 1>those who interpret it, and whether or not they enjoy

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<v Speaker 1>credibility in the eyes of citizens.

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<v Speaker 4>That's the issue here. I'm arguing.

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<v Speaker 1>That the Constitutional Court, our Constitution, And the very idea

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<v Speaker 1>of constitutionality is in very dark waters at the moment.

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<v Speaker 1>Because it really needs us to make a very big

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<v Speaker 1>leap of faith in order for it to enjoy the

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<v Speaker 1>legitimacy it once did when we understood it to be

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<v Speaker 1>an institution that serves the people of this country.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes.

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<v Speaker 1>It needs us to make the faith, the leap of

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<v Speaker 1>faith that says these people.

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<v Speaker 2>Sit on those benches in our interest.

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<v Speaker 1>But increasingly, the argument is being made to say, no,

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<v Speaker 1>those people sit on those benches in the interest of

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<v Speaker 1>the constitution.

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<v Speaker 2>And while it might be a, an intellectually.

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<v Speaker 1>Intriguing idea that the constitutional court serves the constitution.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Great.

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<v Speaker 3>No problem.

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<v Speaker 2>At some point, That constitution must serve the people. Yes.

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<v Speaker 1>Or at least be understood to do so. And the

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<v Speaker 1>gap between those two ideas is ever widening. And the

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<v Speaker 1>more that gap widens, the greater the chances of the

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<v Speaker 1>legitimacy of our constitutions Our very idea of Bill of Rights,

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<v Speaker 1>the rule of law that flows from that constitution, begins

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<v Speaker 1>to lose more and more credibility. And that, my friend,

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<v Speaker 1>is dangerous. Because the question is now constantly being asked. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>That's the question that is becoming louder and more frequent.

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<v Speaker 1>And by the way, it's not being asked in English anymore.

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<v Speaker 1>That question is no longer being asked in English.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, I shall stand up.

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<v Speaker 1>That question is no longer being asked in English. I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know if you understand what that means.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, there.

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<v Speaker 1>Are people who believe that they haven't prayed unless they've

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<v Speaker 1>prayed in English.

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<v Speaker 2>You know that?

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<v Speaker 1>Just as there are people who don't want to believe

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<v Speaker 1>that they've been at a particular event unless it has

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<v Speaker 1>been witnessed by selfies.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know if you're seeing where I'm going with this. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I see.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm saying to you that these questions are no longer

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<v Speaker 1>being asked in English.

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<v Speaker 2>Sure.

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<v Speaker 1>People are now asking the question, That's the question.

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<v Speaker 2>That is being asked.

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<v Speaker 1>It is no longer being asked in English. I hope

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<v Speaker 1>you're understanding what I'm trying to say to you. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>saying to you, the language of fairness, constitutionality, legality, Justice is.

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<v Speaker 2>No longer English in the minds of many South Africans.

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<v Speaker 3>True.

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<v Speaker 2>Woe betide is.

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<v Speaker 1>The order of justice that can't answer those questions in

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<v Speaker 1>the language that they are being asked in.

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<v Speaker 2>In.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes.

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<v Speaker 1>That's the question that's beginning to resonate more loudly.

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<v Speaker 2>And more frequently. But we don't feel it. We are

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<v Speaker 2>not experiencing it.

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<v Speaker 1>And those that continue to sing its praises seem to

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<v Speaker 1>be speaking a different language to us.

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<v Speaker 3>True.

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<v Speaker 1>I want to end my little montage because there was

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<v Speaker 1>somebody by the name of Tessa last week. He was

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<v Speaker 1>angry with me. They don't know that sometimes there are

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<v Speaker 1>no calls that are here. So I could keep quiet.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>No.

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<v Speaker 1>I could keep quiet and say nothing until the call comes.

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<v Speaker 1>Because people will say, yeah, but let people talk. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>if they phone, I'll let them talk. If they can

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<v Speaker 1>just phone, I'll let them.

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<v Speaker 2>Trust me. But why are they not phoning? What must

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<v Speaker 2>I do?

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<v Speaker 4>Give you dead air?

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<v Speaker 2>I must talk. Must work for my man. Yeah. Huh?

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<v Speaker 2>So when you.

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<v Speaker 1>See me ad-libbing, it's because the calls are still coming

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<v Speaker 1>in or I'm still waiting for somebody to come through.

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<v Speaker 1>As soon as they come, I take those calls because

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<v Speaker 1>I actually want to talk to you.

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<v Speaker 3>True.

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<v Speaker 1>Those are the things that you can't see because you

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<v Speaker 1>can't see what's on my screen because you are there

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<v Speaker 1>at home on your cell phone or on the radio listening.

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<v Speaker 2>You see? I understand. Even if they can watch us

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<v Speaker 2>on Prime Media Plus, they won't see.

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<v Speaker 1>They can't see that.

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<v Speaker 3>So.

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<v Speaker 2>They have to have that leap of faith to believe

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<v Speaker 2>that I really want to talk to you. Like now.

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<v Speaker 1>Mkesha and I is just food. Now I'm going to

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<v Speaker 1>take his call. Mkesha, good evening to you. Good evening

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<v Speaker 1>to you, Mkesha.

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<v Speaker 3>Hey, what's happening? How's it? I'm not happy that sometimes

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<v Speaker 3>there's one.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, man, we are happy, man. We are very, very happy, Mkesha.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, but now my question to you, my ops, why

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<v Speaker 3>is it that... You see, KZN has five teams in

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<v Speaker 3>the PSL. Yeah. Gauteng has only three teams in the PSL. Yeah. So,

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<v Speaker 3>the KZN team failed to win in the pitch. Yes.

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<v Speaker 3>But KZN is hosting the final of Gauteng team. Yes.

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<v Speaker 3>Is that fair?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, it I imagine there's some rules.

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<v Speaker 1>You're going to have to help me because I don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>But I imagine there are some rules that exist as

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<v Speaker 1>to who can be in.

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<v Speaker 2>The PSL, right?

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<v Speaker 1>And if a team does not make it into the PSL,

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<v Speaker 1>regardless of which province it comes from, it hasn't. And

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<v Speaker 1>if a team has made it onto the PSL on

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<v Speaker 1>the basis of the rules, then it It can, or

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<v Speaker 1>how does it work?

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<v Speaker 3>No, you see, this competition that they were playing, there

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<v Speaker 3>are 16 teams in the PSL. So the top eight teams,

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<v Speaker 3>they are playing for this, they are qualified to play

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<v Speaker 3>in this tournament. It's called top eight. And because the

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<v Speaker 3>eight teams were there, and they were knocked out. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>So how 10 teams.

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<v Speaker 3>Qualified to play the final. Yeah. So why must Houten

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<v Speaker 3>supporters of these two teams travel from Houten to watch

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<v Speaker 3>their favorite teams in KZN?

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<v Speaker 1>Because they are traveling in their country and they can

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<v Speaker 1>see the countryside.

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<v Speaker 2>No, no, no. Oh, you ask the question and then

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<v Speaker 2>you don't allow me to answer the question.

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<v Speaker 3>All right.

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<v Speaker 2>How are you?

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, sorry, Marv.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, maybe it's part of the campaign to say, see

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<v Speaker 1>your country, go to Japan. Maybe it's part of that

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<v Speaker 1>thing to say, no, no, we've got lots of stadiums here.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's give this one a chance. Next time we'll go

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<v Speaker 2>to Moses. Desperate. What is the one desperate?

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<v Speaker 1>Another time we'll go to the one in Cape Town.

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<v Speaker 1>It's just flexing to say, ah, we can go anywhere

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<v Speaker 1>and play games of soccer.

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<v Speaker 3>But that is wrong, Ma'am.

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<v Speaker 2>Why is it wrong?

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<v Speaker 3>That is wrong, Ma'am. You know, in South Africa, the

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<v Speaker 3>football supporters are called customers. They are not co-owners of

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<v Speaker 3>these teams, like is happening in Europe, you see. In Europe,

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<v Speaker 3>if you can go to... to England, you go to Spain,

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<v Speaker 3>teams there are named after the places there. When you

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<v Speaker 3>go to Manchester, we talk about Manchester, it is from Manchester.

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<v Speaker 3>We talk about Liverpool, it's from Liverpool.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, but when you would argue then, why is

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<v Speaker 1>Mameluri Sundowns not training in HMP?

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<v Speaker 2>Why are they training in Clore Corp? Is that your argument?

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<v Speaker 3>No, no, no. That's not my argument, my opposite. My

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<v Speaker 3>argument is that, as I'm saying that, South African football

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<v Speaker 3>supporters are called customers because they are not part of

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<v Speaker 3>these teams. These teams are family businesses owned by ANC comrades.

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<v Speaker 3>PSL teams. I'm talking about PSL teams. Even with Sapa,

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<v Speaker 3>ANC comrades, even Sapa itself. Even the teams are owned

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<v Speaker 3>by ANC comrades. When teams should be owned by the community,

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<v Speaker 3>just like I'm telling you that is happening. Supporters must

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<v Speaker 3>have their own trust in football.

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<v Speaker 2>No, no, you must have a trust.

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<v Speaker 3>No, no, no. What I'm trying to highlight to you

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<v Speaker 3>is that South African football supporters, they are not aware

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<v Speaker 3>that they should have a stake in these football teams.

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<v Speaker 3>What is happening in South Africa is wrong.

0:16:37.140 --> 0:16:41.800
<v Speaker 2>I agree with you. But you must start. Somebody must start.

0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:46.400
<v Speaker 3>No, every time when I highlight something, you always tell

0:16:46.420 --> 0:16:48.700
<v Speaker 3>me to start that thing. The last time I told

0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:56.700
<v Speaker 3>you about the Department of Education imposing the history that

0:16:56.860 --> 0:17:02.500
<v Speaker 3>they are going to rewrite. You said to me, no,

0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:05.770
<v Speaker 3>why must I start something? When I asked you, are

0:17:05.790 --> 0:17:08.290
<v Speaker 3>you going to be happy for your child to read

0:17:08.369 --> 0:17:11.460
<v Speaker 3>a history that is inaccurate? You said, no, for you,

0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:14.300
<v Speaker 3>you're going to teach your child. So now I don't

0:17:14.340 --> 0:17:15.300
<v Speaker 3>know why you're saying that.

0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:16.639
<v Speaker 2>I am.

0:17:16.740 --> 0:17:19.780
<v Speaker 1>I'm trying to teach.

0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:21.560
<v Speaker 3>I'm not a teacher.

0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:25.710
<v Speaker 1>You're coming with a good idea, and you're just dropping it,

0:17:25.780 --> 0:17:27.040
<v Speaker 1>and then you think you can just go away.

0:17:28.100 --> 0:17:30.460
<v Speaker 3>No, it's not that easy, my obs. This is something

0:17:31.350 --> 0:17:32.570
<v Speaker 3>you must remember.

0:17:32.630 --> 0:17:32.770
<v Speaker 5>No.

0:17:32.810 --> 0:17:34.030
<v Speaker 3>You must remember this is something.

0:17:34.070 --> 0:17:35.050
<v Speaker 2>Sorry, sorry, Papa.

0:17:35.070 --> 0:17:35.330
<v Speaker 3>Sorry.

0:17:35.770 --> 0:17:38.190
<v Speaker 1>You can't come up with such a good idea, tell

0:17:38.230 --> 0:17:40.290
<v Speaker 1>us of the fact that there's things that we don't

0:17:40.330 --> 0:17:41.030
<v Speaker 1>know that you know.

0:17:42.010 --> 0:17:44.570
<v Speaker 2>And then when we say, no, no, lead us, Mkeshana,

0:17:44.590 --> 0:17:45.600
<v Speaker 2>lead us, because you know these things.

0:17:45.619 --> 0:17:48.560
<v Speaker 3>But you don't know what I'm doing in my time, Masmohab.

0:17:48.580 --> 0:17:52.440
<v Speaker 3>You've never asked me. You have never asked me what

0:17:52.460 --> 0:17:54.140
<v Speaker 3>I'm doing every day.

0:17:54.180 --> 0:17:58.900
<v Speaker 2>But then continue. If you have started, then very good, Mkeshana.

0:17:59.570 --> 0:18:18.750
<v Speaker 3>No, I can't be all over, Masmohab. &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt;.

0:18:18.710 --> 0:18:19.410
<v Speaker 2>&lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt;.

0:18:28.380 --> 0:18:31.440
<v Speaker 6>With this information, the problem that I'm having, my ops,

0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:34.520
<v Speaker 6>I've told you the other day that the first journalists

0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:36.980
<v Speaker 6>that we have in this country are useless for me.

0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:42.720
<v Speaker 6>Because they are not educating our people, these people.

0:18:43.550 --> 0:18:48.790
<v Speaker 3>Our people are being ripped off by now because these journalists,

0:18:48.830 --> 0:18:53.389
<v Speaker 3>they got the proximity of these people that are running

0:18:54.470 --> 0:18:55.130
<v Speaker 3>this country.

0:18:55.150 --> 0:18:55.970
<v Speaker 2>So it's their fault.

0:18:56.010 --> 0:19:01.500
<v Speaker 3>They're supporting... and things that will make our people more wiser. Instead,

0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:05.359
<v Speaker 3>they make our people to sleep. You see?

0:19:05.660 --> 0:19:07.590
<v Speaker 2>So what must happen?

0:19:08.790 --> 0:19:12.409
<v Speaker 3>What must happen? Educated people like yourself, my opa, must

0:19:12.450 --> 0:19:19.689
<v Speaker 3>leave when I'm asleep. Of course, you must help in

0:19:19.710 --> 0:19:23.229
<v Speaker 3>these things because you know, as you know, our people,

0:19:23.290 --> 0:19:25.859
<v Speaker 3>they are not informed, most of them. So somebody else

0:19:25.880 --> 0:19:28.000
<v Speaker 3>must take up the responsibility of doing what Nkeshana wants done.

0:19:28.020 --> 0:19:29.879
<v Speaker 3>Nkeshana is there. He's going to support that person.

0:19:29.980 --> 0:19:32.200
<v Speaker 1>Or that person must come and support me so that

0:19:32.220 --> 0:19:32.620
<v Speaker 1>we must study.

0:19:40.590 --> 0:19:42.150
<v Speaker 2>Of doing what Nkeshana wants done.

0:19:43.369 --> 0:19:46.929
<v Speaker 3>Nkeshana is there. He's going to support that person. Or

0:19:46.970 --> 0:19:49.190
<v Speaker 3>that person must come and support me so that he

0:19:49.210 --> 0:19:50.310
<v Speaker 3>must start this thing.

0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:51.710
<v Speaker 2>Me, me, me, me.

0:19:51.859 --> 0:19:53.640
<v Speaker 3>Me, I will support you.

0:19:53.660 --> 0:19:55.940
<v Speaker 2>No, me, I will support you.

0:19:55.960 --> 0:19:59.460
<v Speaker 3>I'll tell you what.

0:19:59.600 --> 0:20:01.360
<v Speaker 2>No, me, I'm not passionate about that thing.

0:20:02.200 --> 0:20:04.679
<v Speaker 3>No, but you just said you are happy.

0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:08.939
<v Speaker 1>I'm happy, but I'm not as passionate as you are

0:20:09.100 --> 0:20:16.919
<v Speaker 1>about it. You know the technicalities for somebody's trust.

0:20:17.260 --> 0:20:19.400
<v Speaker 2>Ah, me, I don't know that stuff. But I'm happy that.

0:20:19.340 --> 0:20:21.600
<v Speaker 3>My meeting is on. But if you've got time, all right,

0:20:21.660 --> 0:20:24.859
<v Speaker 3>just in closing my office. Yes. If you've got time,

0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:28.530
<v Speaker 3>you must check how teams are run in Europe.

0:20:29.910 --> 0:20:33.689
<v Speaker 1>But I'm not very interested in that stuff.

0:20:34.770 --> 0:20:35.610
<v Speaker 3>Come again?

0:20:35.730 --> 0:20:37.630
<v Speaker 2>It's like not a big interest of mine.

0:20:38.950 --> 0:20:41.830
<v Speaker 3>No, but you must not talk about soccer then.

0:20:43.040 --> 0:20:45.160
<v Speaker 2>I can't say I'm happy about Sundowns winning.

0:20:46.300 --> 0:20:49.460
<v Speaker 3>No, if you are a soccer fan, when we talk soccer,

0:20:49.700 --> 0:20:54.340
<v Speaker 3>I mean, we must talk soccer. You can't say, no, no, no, no, me,

0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:56.219
<v Speaker 3>I'm a soccer, I'm not a soccer fan, but you

0:20:56.240 --> 0:20:58.590
<v Speaker 3>want to talk soccer. It's just I want to talk

0:20:58.609 --> 0:21:00.570
<v Speaker 3>politics and you don't know politics, you can't.

0:21:00.690 --> 0:21:03.750
<v Speaker 2>But you said to me, are you happy that Sundowns won?

0:21:04.210 --> 0:21:04.909
<v Speaker 2>And I said, yes.

0:21:05.310 --> 0:21:06.510
<v Speaker 3>Because you are a follower.

0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:12.300
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but I'm not a tie-hard follower. I'm not the

0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:13.980
<v Speaker 1>type of person that follows.

0:21:14.000 --> 0:21:14.080
<v Speaker 2>Ah.

0:21:14.060 --> 0:21:17.800
<v Speaker 3>Now, tie-hard follower. Now we must make a difference between

0:21:17.820 --> 0:21:22.810
<v Speaker 3>tie-hard and a follower. Yeah.

0:21:23.730 --> 0:21:27.109
<v Speaker 1>But when are you more passionate than me about soccer?

0:21:27.930 --> 0:21:30.090
<v Speaker 3>How do you know that I'm passionate about soccer?

0:21:30.230 --> 0:21:31.750
<v Speaker 2>Because of the way that you talk about it.

0:21:35.200 --> 0:21:35.360
<v Speaker 3>Okay.

0:21:38.200 --> 0:21:39.080
<v Speaker 2>Do you not love soccer?

0:21:40.580 --> 0:21:40.940
<v Speaker 3>I do.

0:21:42.340 --> 0:21:45.280
<v Speaker 1>On a scale of 1 to 10, compare my love

0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:46.780
<v Speaker 1>for soccer and your love for soccer.

0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:48.160
<v Speaker 2>How much are you.

0:21:48.260 --> 0:21:50.580
<v Speaker 3>I don't know how did you grow up, Mosmops. How

0:21:50.619 --> 0:21:52.119
<v Speaker 3>can I say?

0:21:52.140 --> 0:21:52.680
<v Speaker 2>I don't know.

0:21:52.700 --> 0:21:55.379
<v Speaker 3>Maybe you played, you were a good striker or a

0:21:55.400 --> 0:21:56.320
<v Speaker 3>good keeper or what.

0:21:56.380 --> 0:21:57.380
<v Speaker 2>I don't know.

0:21:57.440 --> 0:21:59.899
<v Speaker 1>Just on the basis of the conversation that you and

0:21:59.960 --> 0:22:01.820
<v Speaker 1>I have had now, what would you say?

0:22:03.540 --> 0:22:06.950
<v Speaker 3>For me, in South Africa, I don't support.

0:22:08.859 --> 0:22:13.160
<v Speaker 2>All right, Mkesha, all right. I support you, my brother.

0:22:13.220 --> 0:22:14.879
<v Speaker 3>I only support Bafana Bafana.

0:22:15.060 --> 0:22:15.680
<v Speaker 2>I'm with you.

0:22:15.700 --> 0:22:18.620
<v Speaker 3>No, no, no, not a team. I only support Bafana Bafana.

0:22:18.640 --> 0:22:19.810
<v Speaker 2>I am with you.

0:22:19.990 --> 0:22:22.070
<v Speaker 3>I am with you.

0:22:22.090 --> 0:22:23.590
<v Speaker 2>I'm with you, Mkesha.

0:22:23.690 --> 0:22:34.200
<v Speaker 1>All right, let me speak to Lisa in River Lee.

0:22:34.240 --> 0:22:34.940
<v Speaker 2>Hi, Lisa.

0:22:36.210 --> 0:22:37.170
<v Speaker 3>Hi, Aubrey, how are you?

0:22:37.190 --> 0:22:40.430
<v Speaker 2>I'm well, I'm well, Lisa. How are you doing?

0:22:40.490 --> 0:22:41.129
<v Speaker 7>I'm all right, man.

0:22:41.150 --> 0:22:44.790
<v Speaker 5>I'm just very upset because now, this time of the night,

0:22:44.970 --> 0:22:48.310
<v Speaker 5>just about half an hour, 15 minutes ago, somebody was

0:22:48.369 --> 0:22:52.109
<v Speaker 5>shooting and shots going off here, you know, in the

0:22:52.230 --> 0:22:55.270
<v Speaker 5>river Lee again. Yeah, you know, with a summer pillow,

0:22:56.410 --> 0:22:57.430
<v Speaker 5>informal settlement.

0:22:57.450 --> 0:22:59.169
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Yeah, so.

0:23:00.310 --> 0:23:02.190
<v Speaker 5>We can't go out to go and see who's doing

0:23:02.270 --> 0:23:04.070
<v Speaker 5>it and we don't know who it is, but it's

0:23:04.090 --> 0:23:08.340
<v Speaker 5>virtually nearly every other night. You know, we have this

0:23:08.480 --> 0:23:11.400
<v Speaker 5>people and, you know, where the people are being shot

0:23:11.460 --> 0:23:15.460
<v Speaker 5>in the camp or in down Main Reef Road. But,

0:23:15.540 --> 0:23:17.379
<v Speaker 5>I mean, it's just going on now. You know, it's

0:23:17.420 --> 0:23:20.740
<v Speaker 5>sympathy now that I got to you too late because

0:23:20.760 --> 0:23:21.980
<v Speaker 5>you would have heard them shooting.

0:23:24.220 --> 0:23:28.480
<v Speaker 1>And I imagine people live in fear all the time there, Lisa.

0:23:29.140 --> 0:23:29.560
<v Speaker 3>Of course.

0:23:30.369 --> 0:23:33.700
<v Speaker 5>Of course, because, I mean, I don't know why, you know,

0:23:34.180 --> 0:23:37.540
<v Speaker 5>they were supposed to close the mining hole here or something,

0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:41.560
<v Speaker 5>you know, near the school. And, I mean, how do

0:23:41.720 --> 0:23:44.369
<v Speaker 5>you expect people to sleep at night too when you

0:23:44.400 --> 0:23:47.149
<v Speaker 5>have people driving through? You don't even know if you

0:23:47.190 --> 0:23:50.109
<v Speaker 5>come in, if you get shot by a drive-by bullet.

0:23:51.609 --> 0:23:53.290
<v Speaker 1>Lisa in River Lee. I don't know what to say

0:23:53.330 --> 0:23:56.040
<v Speaker 1>to you, Mama. I don't know what to say to

0:23:56.060 --> 0:23:59.500
<v Speaker 1>you because... I know for a fact that this is

0:23:59.560 --> 0:24:03.659
<v Speaker 1>something that's been coming for at least 20 years. I

0:24:03.720 --> 0:24:06.960
<v Speaker 1>know of the stories that I've heard from Carltonville to

0:24:07.700 --> 0:24:11.000
<v Speaker 1>River Lee. I've done stories about it, about how people,

0:24:11.500 --> 0:24:15.090
<v Speaker 1>about how there are almost cities underneath the ground where

0:24:15.109 --> 0:24:18.670
<v Speaker 1>you guys are there, where people are just running things.

0:24:18.750 --> 0:24:21.470
<v Speaker 1>And people have been complaining about it for years, years.

0:24:23.460 --> 0:24:24.820
<v Speaker 1>Nothing is being done about it.

0:24:25.060 --> 0:24:25.400
<v Speaker 6>One day.

0:24:25.480 --> 0:24:28.300
<v Speaker 5>You know, the sad part about it all is in

0:24:28.340 --> 0:24:36.960
<v Speaker 5>this summer, you know, settlement place here, informal settlement, there's

0:24:37.060 --> 0:24:40.619
<v Speaker 5>more women there and there's a man that's got about

0:24:40.619 --> 0:24:45.160
<v Speaker 5>36 goats also living there. During the day, he lets

0:24:45.200 --> 0:24:47.359
<v Speaker 5>them out and they roam around and eat the grass.

0:24:47.880 --> 0:24:51.100
<v Speaker 5>But I mean, how can they have people living like

0:24:51.140 --> 0:24:55.360
<v Speaker 5>that And then there's nobody. They come looking for food

0:24:55.440 --> 0:24:57.650
<v Speaker 5>into the area every time they come to your door.

0:24:58.170 --> 0:25:01.610
<v Speaker 5>You know, it's very, very, I mean, I can't understand.

0:25:01.630 --> 0:25:04.550
<v Speaker 5>It's an untenable situation now, the way it is here

0:25:04.590 --> 0:25:05.130
<v Speaker 5>in Rivali.

0:25:06.290 --> 0:25:08.649
<v Speaker 1>Lisa, in Rivali, thanks very much for your call, Mama.

0:25:11.150 --> 0:25:17.740
<v Speaker 1>And it's been happening for years, years, years. Something's going

0:25:17.760 --> 0:25:19.460
<v Speaker 1>to happen and we're going to label the people of Rivali.

0:25:19.480 --> 0:25:26.270
<v Speaker 3>Watch. Watch. Watch.

0:25:28.510 --> 0:25:35.129
<v Speaker 1>You can't expect people to relax when that kind of

0:25:35.190 --> 0:25:37.510
<v Speaker 1>activity is happening in your community.

0:25:37.530 --> 0:25:44.490
<v Speaker 2>You can't. Rodney is in Sochanguwe. Bro.

0:25:45.940 --> 0:25:46.540
<v Speaker 7>Hey, bro.

0:25:46.960 --> 0:25:48.000
<v Speaker 2>I say, who's here, my bro?

0:25:49.100 --> 0:25:52.120
<v Speaker 3>Hey, Tara. Hey, bro.

0:25:52.180 --> 0:25:56.700
<v Speaker 7>What can you do? I know you've got a good idea.

0:25:58.460 --> 0:26:01.920
<v Speaker 7>It's my brother, that one. He's an organic intellectual.

0:26:01.960 --> 0:26:02.710
<v Speaker 3>He's my brother.

0:26:02.730 --> 0:26:03.350
<v Speaker 8>I love him too much.

0:26:15.170 --> 0:26:17.229
<v Speaker 2>I love Mkesha not too much. We need him.

0:26:17.250 --> 0:26:19.470
<v Speaker 7>What is on your mind, Baroni? Last week we spoke

0:26:19.490 --> 0:26:20.670
<v Speaker 7>about social rehabilitation.

0:26:20.730 --> 0:26:20.870
<v Speaker 3>Yes.

0:26:20.910 --> 0:26:24.010
<v Speaker 2>Talking about the effect of colonization and apartheid.

0:26:24.050 --> 0:26:24.210
<v Speaker 5>Yes.

0:26:24.550 --> 0:26:25.649
<v Speaker 2>We have not been rehabilitated.

0:26:44.560 --> 0:26:44.840
<v Speaker 4>Yes.

0:26:47.080 --> 0:26:53.220
<v Speaker 7>In 2021, I mean 2011, I developed a program. I've

0:26:53.280 --> 0:27:01.220
<v Speaker 7>got interest into community development, but using educational activities.

0:27:01.500 --> 0:27:01.780
<v Speaker 5>Yes.

0:27:01.800 --> 0:27:06.360
<v Speaker 7>So what I did, I developed the program to stop

0:27:06.440 --> 0:27:08.820
<v Speaker 7>vandalization of school infrastructure.

0:27:09.119 --> 0:27:09.340
<v Speaker 1>Yes.

0:27:10.930 --> 0:27:15.750
<v Speaker 7>Looking at how we were put into the stage of vandalizing.

0:27:16.010 --> 0:27:17.470
<v Speaker 3>Yes. Yes.

0:27:17.990 --> 0:27:20.760
<v Speaker 7>So after being put in there, they said, make the

0:27:20.780 --> 0:27:22.000
<v Speaker 7>government ungovernable.

0:27:22.280 --> 0:27:22.560
<v Speaker 5>Yes.

0:27:23.180 --> 0:27:24.320
<v Speaker 7>We started vandalizing.

0:27:24.580 --> 0:27:24.720
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:27:24.920 --> 0:27:27.440
<v Speaker 7>And since then, there's never been any program that can

0:27:27.540 --> 0:27:31.390
<v Speaker 7>rehabilitate us from that kind of a behavior. That's when

0:27:31.490 --> 0:27:35.290
<v Speaker 7>I developed that program. But something very interesting I had

0:27:35.330 --> 0:27:38.840
<v Speaker 7>to do, One of the guys who saw me developing

0:27:38.880 --> 0:27:47.590
<v Speaker 7>the program back then in Pulukwani, 2011 to 2016, he

0:27:47.670 --> 0:27:51.109
<v Speaker 7>sent me the message and said, listen to the interview

0:27:51.190 --> 0:27:55.610
<v Speaker 7>from SAFM. When Musima Imana was interviewed about the program,

0:27:55.990 --> 0:27:58.990
<v Speaker 7>they said it's a battlefield convention.

0:28:00.770 --> 0:28:01.629
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:28:01.670 --> 0:28:06.609
<v Speaker 1>Was it Musi Maimane or the good doctor? It goes,

0:28:06.750 --> 0:28:07.770
<v Speaker 1>it goes.

0:28:08.130 --> 0:28:15.800
<v Speaker 7>It goes, it goes. You know, it reminds me that

0:28:16.020 --> 0:28:18.619
<v Speaker 7>I should call you today just to say it's exactly

0:28:18.640 --> 0:28:22.090
<v Speaker 7>what I was thinking about. The language I'm using is

0:28:22.160 --> 0:28:26.250
<v Speaker 7>different from theirs, but mine simply is related to the

0:28:26.570 --> 0:28:33.560
<v Speaker 7>rehabilitation process. was about can we do things for ourselves?

0:28:35.640 --> 0:28:38.300
<v Speaker 7>Because once we start doing things for ourselves, you can't

0:28:38.340 --> 0:28:41.240
<v Speaker 7>vandalize the schools which we were a part of in

0:28:41.280 --> 0:28:47.090
<v Speaker 7>terms of rehabilitation. And renovation is when it's done by

0:28:47.510 --> 0:28:54.210
<v Speaker 7>a contractor. But rehabilitation process, it can't be removed. It's rehabilitated.

0:28:54.230 --> 0:28:59.080
<v Speaker 7>Because in this rehabilitation process, it becomes jeweled. you become

0:28:59.100 --> 0:29:04.640
<v Speaker 7>rehabilitated as a doer, the person who is renovating the school,

0:29:05.240 --> 0:29:08.700
<v Speaker 7>and the school is being rehabilitated by being fixed by

0:29:08.720 --> 0:29:12.490
<v Speaker 7>the society. So automatically, you can't vandalize again because you

0:29:12.510 --> 0:29:17.370
<v Speaker 7>are part of the solution. Which is something I'm very

0:29:17.390 --> 0:29:20.450
<v Speaker 7>much interested in. I think I'm going to, I'm interested

0:29:20.470 --> 0:29:23.230
<v Speaker 7>in working with them because things that I shared with you,

0:29:23.690 --> 0:29:28.040
<v Speaker 7>it's in line with social rehabilitation, it's in line with

0:29:28.680 --> 0:29:35.970
<v Speaker 7>also fixing the infrastructure. Yeah, and unfortunately programs like this,

0:29:36.590 --> 0:29:40.360
<v Speaker 7>when you develop as Rodney, you are no good. It's

0:29:40.420 --> 0:29:44.700
<v Speaker 7>not easy for you to create those. But when you

0:29:44.740 --> 0:29:47.020
<v Speaker 7>are a developer, when you are a thinker, you never

0:29:47.040 --> 0:29:50.640
<v Speaker 7>stop thinking. You keep on developing and developing and developing

0:29:50.720 --> 0:29:53.160
<v Speaker 7>until somebody one day, one of the good years, is

0:29:53.200 --> 0:29:55.540
<v Speaker 7>going to hear you. A friend of mine was saying

0:29:55.560 --> 0:29:58.590
<v Speaker 7>to me, you are 16 years ahead of all of us.

0:29:58.880 --> 0:29:59.070
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:30:00.000 --> 0:30:06.010
<v Speaker 7>They're talking about it now. You developed it 16 years back.

0:30:07.810 --> 0:30:12.110
<v Speaker 7>So it's one of those things. But I'm looking forward

0:30:12.130 --> 0:30:14.710
<v Speaker 7>to be part of it. I'll find a way of

0:30:15.290 --> 0:30:19.450
<v Speaker 7>getting in contact with them. If I had a way,

0:30:19.840 --> 0:30:21.719
<v Speaker 7>I wanted to show you something. We can send you

0:30:21.780 --> 0:30:25.620
<v Speaker 7>something on WhatsApp. Something about things that I do. I

0:30:26.980 --> 0:30:30.709
<v Speaker 7>wanted to share with you. so that we can see it.

0:30:31.170 --> 0:30:31.390
<v Speaker 3>Sure.

0:30:31.510 --> 0:30:34.690
<v Speaker 1>No, no, you can share it with me on our WhatsApp,

0:30:34.770 --> 0:30:39.050
<v Speaker 1>not WhatsApp line, on our, on our, on my email,

0:30:39.830 --> 0:30:42.770
<v Speaker 1>obrim at 702.co.za.

0:30:44.120 --> 0:30:47.000
<v Speaker 2>Obrim at 702.co.za.

0:30:47.980 --> 0:30:50.280
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. No, perhaps. Thanks very much.

0:30:50.440 --> 0:30:54.380
<v Speaker 1>Rodney, Rodney in South, in social government, much appreciated.

0:30:57.330 --> 0:31:05.690
<v Speaker 2>Moses just wrote me a message. He says, hi, Audrey.

0:31:07.090 --> 0:31:11.030
<v Speaker 1>Home Affairs Minister, please don't misrepresent facts. Minister never said

0:31:11.070 --> 0:31:14.390
<v Speaker 1>he doesn't know about the issues relating to Constitutional Court

0:31:14.430 --> 0:31:17.930
<v Speaker 1>judgment regarding illegal immigration. He knows what's happening. But who

0:31:17.950 --> 0:31:22.430
<v Speaker 1>said that, Moses? Who said that the minister does not

0:31:22.550 --> 0:31:26.330
<v Speaker 1>know about the issues relating to the Constitutional Court judgment?

0:31:28.210 --> 0:31:29.490
<v Speaker 2>Because it's not me that said that.

0:31:31.810 --> 0:31:35.610
<v Speaker 1>He says what he said was he was not informed

0:31:35.650 --> 0:31:40.350
<v Speaker 1>about the directive issued by the department, Chulani Mavuso, and

0:31:40.430 --> 0:31:44.210
<v Speaker 1>further said maybe it was because it was an administrative

0:31:44.340 --> 0:31:47.320
<v Speaker 1>issue as there was threat from lawyers that if you

0:31:47.360 --> 0:31:50.480
<v Speaker 1>don't implement, we will charge you for the contempt of court.

0:31:51.120 --> 0:31:51.740
<v Speaker 2>I agree with you.

0:31:52.240 --> 0:31:52.380
<v Speaker 3>Hmm.

0:31:56.050 --> 0:31:58.620
<v Speaker 1>I don't know whether you are willing to apologize for

0:31:58.650 --> 0:32:02.400
<v Speaker 1>saying that I said that the minister did not know

0:32:02.480 --> 0:32:05.280
<v Speaker 1>about the issues relating to the constitutional court judgment.

0:32:06.340 --> 0:32:07.400
<v Speaker 2>Because he did know about that.

0:32:08.280 --> 0:32:12.170
<v Speaker 1>What he did not know, as you correctly say, is

0:32:12.250 --> 0:32:17.890
<v Speaker 1>the implementation of the directive by the constitutional court.

0:32:18.070 --> 0:32:20.070
<v Speaker 2>That he did not know. That is what he said

0:32:20.150 --> 0:32:23.390
<v Speaker 2>he did not know about. So I think we agree.

0:32:27.500 --> 0:32:36.360
<v Speaker 2>Mine is to say, why did he not know? That's

0:32:36.400 --> 0:32:36.860
<v Speaker 2>my question.

0:32:37.440 --> 0:32:40.100
<v Speaker 1>Why did the minister not know what you and I

0:32:40.240 --> 0:32:48.120
<v Speaker 1>agree about that he did not know? The minister knew

0:32:48.410 --> 0:32:51.410
<v Speaker 1>about the constitutional issues that I have, but he did

0:32:51.450 --> 0:32:54.670
<v Speaker 1>not know about the implementation of the directive. I agree

0:32:54.710 --> 0:33:02.850
<v Speaker 1>with you. The question is, why did he not know?

0:33:04.690 --> 0:33:09.750
<v Speaker 1>Is it because his team at DHA did not tell

0:33:09.790 --> 0:33:14.230
<v Speaker 1>him about the implementation, that administrative process that you're talking about?

0:33:14.750 --> 0:33:15.870
<v Speaker 2>And if so, why not?

0:33:19.910 --> 0:33:22.880
<v Speaker 1>Or is it because the minister was not close enough

0:33:22.940 --> 0:33:24.420
<v Speaker 1>to the process to know?

0:33:25.740 --> 0:33:34.700
<v Speaker 2>And if so, why not? So a long.

0:33:34.030 --> 0:33:37.490
<v Speaker 1>Story that you've sent to me, but it is completely

0:33:37.750 --> 0:33:45.210
<v Speaker 1>off base, Moses Masede. Completely off base. Because you didn't

0:33:45.260 --> 0:33:50.360
<v Speaker 1>listen to what I was saying. And I'm happy to

0:33:50.400 --> 0:33:57.490
<v Speaker 1>have the conversation with you too. Why did the minister

0:33:57.610 --> 0:34:02.570
<v Speaker 1>not know? Somebody else said, yeah, no, no, I agree

0:34:02.590 --> 0:34:05.350
<v Speaker 1>with you, Aubrey. Let me find that other message. I

0:34:05.390 --> 0:34:07.930
<v Speaker 1>think it's somebody by the name of Bruce Furness. He says, yeah,

0:34:07.950 --> 0:34:10.509
<v Speaker 1>I agree with you. The minister should have known. But

0:34:10.550 --> 0:34:11.920
<v Speaker 1>all he has to do is just give us a

0:34:11.950 --> 0:34:12.800
<v Speaker 1>call and show.

0:34:13.070 --> 0:34:13.529
<v Speaker 2>No problem.

0:34:16.700 --> 0:34:19.120
<v Speaker 1>You'll remember that last week we reported on the fact

0:34:19.160 --> 0:34:23.520
<v Speaker 1>that the Freedom Front Plus has raised the question around

0:34:23.900 --> 0:34:26.020
<v Speaker 1>the fact that the GNU has not met.

0:34:26.040 --> 0:34:26.620
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:34:27.760 --> 0:34:30.120
<v Speaker 1>And you could easily argue and say, ah, man, that's

0:34:30.219 --> 0:34:33.550
<v Speaker 1>not such a big issue. They can just phone each other.

0:34:36.350 --> 0:34:40.330
<v Speaker 1>I'm arguing that there's a standing agreement that says we

0:34:40.350 --> 0:34:44.200
<v Speaker 1>will meet on such and such a periodical way. That

0:34:44.300 --> 0:34:52.299
<v Speaker 1>has not happened. The question is why? But I'm not

0:34:52.340 --> 0:34:54.020
<v Speaker 1>hearing you say, oh, no, they should have just phoned

0:34:54.040 --> 0:34:55.680
<v Speaker 1>each other and just said, ah, it's okay, you know.

0:34:56.940 --> 0:35:02.040
<v Speaker 1>I'm saying to you that these things are important. That

0:35:02.260 --> 0:35:06.000
<v Speaker 1>there might be a communication gap between the bureaucrats and

0:35:06.020 --> 0:35:10.220
<v Speaker 1>the minister. For whatever reason. And we need to understand

0:35:10.260 --> 0:35:13.580
<v Speaker 1>what that reason is. Because here is the minister who

0:35:13.600 --> 0:35:14.860
<v Speaker 1>has political oversight.

0:35:15.920 --> 0:35:16.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

0:35:18.080 --> 0:35:22.910
<v Speaker 1>And I imagine reports to the president. Clearly the president

0:35:22.950 --> 0:35:25.430
<v Speaker 1>didn't know if the minister didn't know. And if the

0:35:25.469 --> 0:35:28.070
<v Speaker 1>president knew and the minister didn't know, again, that's a

0:35:28.090 --> 0:35:35.049
<v Speaker 1>problem of communication. Something is wrong. Why? So let me

0:35:35.090 --> 0:35:45.180
<v Speaker 1>go back to Moses. I am in 100% agreement with you, Moses.

0:35:48.440 --> 0:35:51.270
<v Speaker 1>But I disagree when you say that I am misrepresenting facts.

0:35:52.200 --> 0:35:54.940
<v Speaker 1>Because the facts that you are presenting are exactly what

0:35:54.960 --> 0:35:58.440
<v Speaker 1>I have been saying. Unless you were not listening. Which

0:35:58.520 --> 0:36:02.120
<v Speaker 1>may be the problem at the Department of Home Affairs,

0:36:02.140 --> 0:36:11.509
<v Speaker 1>that somebody is not listening to someone. The minister is

0:36:11.690 --> 0:36:14.969
<v Speaker 1>very much aware of the issues relating to the Constitutional

0:36:15.030 --> 0:36:15.650
<v Speaker 1>Court judgment.

0:36:15.870 --> 0:36:17.150
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely agree with you.

0:36:17.670 --> 0:36:21.430
<v Speaker 1>What he did not know, and he has admitted to that,

0:36:24.040 --> 0:36:30.020
<v Speaker 1>is that he did not know about the implementation of

0:36:30.060 --> 0:36:32.080
<v Speaker 1>the directive by the Constitutional Court.

0:36:32.140 --> 0:36:34.520
<v Speaker 2>That's what the minister said. The question I am asking

0:36:34.580 --> 0:36:44.719
<v Speaker 2>is why? Moses. Moses! That guy, the comedian. Moses!

0:36:45.640 --> 0:36:49.920
<v Speaker 1>I forget what that guy's name. Zimbabwean comedian. He's brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant.

0:36:50.600 --> 0:36:55.780
<v Speaker 1>So Moses here is just a, Having a problem. Des,

0:36:56.600 --> 0:36:58.660
<v Speaker 1>and I get your frustration, Des.

0:36:58.700 --> 0:37:00.760
<v Speaker 2>He says, hi, Aubrey. You say what?

0:37:00.880 --> 0:37:04.560
<v Speaker 1>Something's going to happen in Rivoli regarding the Zamazama shootings

0:37:04.620 --> 0:37:08.250
<v Speaker 1>and just doing what they want. Can't the authorities do something?

0:37:09.910 --> 0:37:14.069
<v Speaker 1>I ask the same question as you, Desiree. Why are

0:37:14.110 --> 0:37:15.430
<v Speaker 1>the authorities.

0:37:14.989 --> 0:37:15.629
<v Speaker 2>Not doing something?

0:37:18.840 --> 0:37:23.680
<v Speaker 1>Because I'm telling you now, it is unsustainable that people

0:37:24.840 --> 0:37:28.360
<v Speaker 1>are going to be subjected to that kind of terror

0:37:28.480 --> 0:37:30.339
<v Speaker 1>and horror for such a long time.

0:37:30.900 --> 0:37:33.770
<v Speaker 2>And you think nothing won't happen. When the authorities don't

0:37:33.810 --> 0:37:34.330
<v Speaker 2>do something.

0:37:34.350 --> 0:37:41.850
<v Speaker 1>Eyewitness News was talking about the fact that there are

0:37:42.830 --> 0:37:45.330
<v Speaker 1>all sorts of unauthorized guns that are coming into the

0:37:45.390 --> 0:37:47.410
<v Speaker 1>country from all manner of sources.

0:37:56.820 --> 0:37:57.160
<v Speaker 2>All right.

0:37:58.100 --> 0:37:58.480
<v Speaker 4>All right.

0:37:59.300 --> 0:37:59.600
<v Speaker 5>Okay.

0:38:02.239 --> 0:38:06.910
<v Speaker 1>And the police are arguing that the recovery of those unauthorized,

0:38:08.969 --> 0:38:20.030
<v Speaker 1>undocumented guns is overwhelmingly insufficient. That's what the police are arguing.

0:38:20.890 --> 0:38:22.060
<v Speaker 1>Saying these guns are coming in.

0:38:23.239 --> 0:38:23.680
<v Speaker 2>All right.

0:38:24.780 --> 0:38:28.989
<v Speaker 1>Where do you think these guns are going? And for

0:38:29.050 --> 0:38:30.790
<v Speaker 1>what purpose do you think they're going to be used?

0:38:33.180 --> 0:38:36.460
<v Speaker 1>These guns that are coming in. Forget the guns that

0:38:36.500 --> 0:38:43.759
<v Speaker 1>were already here, that we have not accounted for, that

0:38:43.820 --> 0:38:46.219
<v Speaker 1>were here during the rain of stones in the 80s

0:38:46.280 --> 0:38:50.400
<v Speaker 1>and the early 90s, just before the dawn of democracy.

0:38:50.440 --> 0:38:53.140
<v Speaker 1>There were lots of caches of guns that were in

0:38:53.180 --> 0:38:55.400
<v Speaker 1>the country that are not yet accounted for.

0:38:56.140 --> 0:38:58.089
<v Speaker 2>Were they? What are they doing?

0:39:00.250 --> 0:39:04.930
<v Speaker 1>Oh, a few months ago, we were worried about the

0:39:04.969 --> 0:39:10.730
<v Speaker 1>fact that there are camps in Bumalang. In fact, we

0:39:11.450 --> 0:39:16.700
<v Speaker 1>heard about the story of 90 Moroccan, not Moroccan, Libyan

0:39:17.489 --> 0:39:22.420
<v Speaker 1>trainees who were supposedly here to do some security training.

0:39:22.460 --> 0:39:25.700
<v Speaker 1>But upon deeper scratching, we discovered that they were here

0:39:25.719 --> 0:39:26.920
<v Speaker 1>for military training.

0:39:29.360 --> 0:39:29.720
<v Speaker 2>They left.

0:39:30.410 --> 0:39:35.560
<v Speaker 1>That story died. No accountability, no follow-up on that story.

0:39:35.760 --> 0:39:39.400
<v Speaker 1>We were never told who was held accountable for that story. Oh,

0:39:39.600 --> 0:39:42.660
<v Speaker 1>we also heard at that time that this was but

0:39:42.960 --> 0:39:45.300
<v Speaker 1>one of the camps that are going on. There's a

0:39:45.320 --> 0:39:48.140
<v Speaker 1>friend of mine who comes on this show who tells

0:39:48.219 --> 0:39:50.279
<v Speaker 1>me that, no, no, they've got a farm In a

0:39:50.300 --> 0:39:57.010
<v Speaker 1>boom spread. Where they are doing a lot of. Firearm training.

0:39:57.090 --> 0:40:07.589
<v Speaker 2>Yes. You know for safety. And just last week. We

0:40:07.630 --> 0:40:13.490
<v Speaker 2>saw cues. Of men. Long cues.

0:40:14.350 --> 0:40:14.589
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:40:15.780 --> 0:40:16.160
<v Speaker 2>Of men.

0:40:20.900 --> 0:40:24.980
<v Speaker 1>Just now somebody is going to phone us and tell us, one,

0:40:25.200 --> 0:40:27.280
<v Speaker 1>we've got lots of guns that are coming into the country,

0:40:28.640 --> 0:40:31.520
<v Speaker 1>plus the guns that are in the country, that are illegal,

0:40:31.940 --> 0:40:32.400
<v Speaker 1>these guns.

0:40:33.140 --> 0:40:36.750
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, are they illegal or are they undocumented?

0:40:36.930 --> 0:40:39.450
<v Speaker 2>I don't know anymore. But it's guns that are not

0:40:39.530 --> 0:40:41.390
<v Speaker 2>empty to any gay. I'm sorry.

0:40:42.290 --> 0:40:44.650
<v Speaker 1>I don't know how to describe these guns because you

0:40:44.730 --> 0:40:45.870
<v Speaker 1>use one word and you are wrong.

0:40:45.910 --> 0:40:46.310
<v Speaker 2>You are undue.

0:40:48.910 --> 0:40:53.640
<v Speaker 1>The police are saying that we don't know who these

0:40:53.680 --> 0:40:54.380
<v Speaker 1>guns belong to.

0:40:55.940 --> 0:40:57.000
<v Speaker 2>But they're guns, they can kill.

0:41:00.239 --> 0:41:03.080
<v Speaker 1>These organizations that are trying to deal with the issue

0:41:03.140 --> 0:41:05.669
<v Speaker 1>of guns, they're saying, no, no, no. Now we should

0:41:05.710 --> 0:41:13.910
<v Speaker 1>go and disturb those that have documented or legal guns,

0:41:15.290 --> 0:41:16.050
<v Speaker 1>lawful guns.

0:41:17.180 --> 0:41:23.739
<v Speaker 2>Guns that belong to people that follow the law. Those guns. Say, no, no,

0:41:23.760 --> 0:41:25.200
<v Speaker 2>we must close the tap on those ones.

0:41:26.620 --> 0:41:28.320
<v Speaker 1>Do you think that these ones are going to give

0:41:28.430 --> 0:41:30.270
<v Speaker 1>up their guns when there are these other guns that

0:41:30.290 --> 0:41:32.009
<v Speaker 1>are coming in and we don't know what they're going

0:41:32.030 --> 0:41:41.510
<v Speaker 1>to be used for? There's no way.

0:41:43.810 --> 0:41:45.090
<v Speaker 4>There's no way.

0:41:44.850 --> 0:41:47.680
<v Speaker 1>Anybody's going to give up their guns. When they know

0:41:47.719 --> 0:41:51.430
<v Speaker 1>that this is happening and it's been reported. In an

0:41:51.510 --> 0:41:52.430
<v Speaker 1>environment where.

0:41:52.290 --> 0:41:54.110
<v Speaker 2>The police can't protect us.

0:41:54.630 --> 0:41:54.890
<v Speaker 3>True.

0:41:56.190 --> 0:41:58.899
<v Speaker 1>With the issues of low morale. I am not saying

0:41:58.920 --> 0:42:03.940
<v Speaker 1>that people should walk around with guns. If it was

0:42:03.980 --> 0:42:06.280
<v Speaker 1>up to me, people should not have guns walking around.

0:42:06.910 --> 0:42:06.989
<v Speaker 5>Yes.

0:42:07.360 --> 0:42:09.410
<v Speaker 1>If a person has a gun and they know that

0:42:09.850 --> 0:42:11.810
<v Speaker 1>there are millions of guns that are coming into the

0:42:11.870 --> 0:42:14.930
<v Speaker 1>country and the police can't stem the tide and that

0:42:14.950 --> 0:42:16.529
<v Speaker 1>there are people that are in this country, we don't

0:42:16.550 --> 0:42:17.170
<v Speaker 1>know who they are.

0:42:17.510 --> 0:42:19.290
<v Speaker 2>They aren't talking. We don't know who these people are.

0:42:22.030 --> 0:42:26.390
<v Speaker 2>Long queues of men. I'm a dog. I have a fate.

0:42:29.969 --> 0:42:30.359
<v Speaker 3>Can't.

0:42:31.610 --> 0:42:36.669
<v Speaker 1>And then community members, law-abiding communities, phone in late at night.

0:42:36.730 --> 0:42:38.930
<v Speaker 1>Because you can't say these things during the day anymore

0:42:38.969 --> 0:42:47.779
<v Speaker 1>because it's not. They say, we are law-abiding citizens. We

0:42:47.960 --> 0:42:52.100
<v Speaker 1>try to put their gunshots every night in our communities.

0:42:52.460 --> 0:42:56.630
<v Speaker 2>And we know who is doing it. We've told the authorities.

0:42:57.410 --> 0:43:00.890
<v Speaker 1>Nothing is being done about it. Desiree is angry. I

0:43:00.910 --> 0:43:05.430
<v Speaker 1>can hear her frustration to say, how can you say

0:43:06.090 --> 0:43:11.170
<v Speaker 1>something is going to happen? I have been saying it

0:43:11.210 --> 0:43:14.969
<v Speaker 1>for years. Just like the people of Rivoli have been

0:43:15.010 --> 0:43:20.660
<v Speaker 1>saying it for years, decades. The horror stories of the

0:43:20.739 --> 0:43:24.360
<v Speaker 1>rapes that have taken place in those communities and nothing happens.

0:43:29.300 --> 0:43:35.239
<v Speaker 2>So yes, yes, Desiree, something is going to happen. And

0:43:35.260 --> 0:43:36.180
<v Speaker 2>I'm not calling for it.

0:43:36.580 --> 0:43:40.570
<v Speaker 1>I'm saying that it is unnatural to think that people

0:43:40.610 --> 0:43:52.029
<v Speaker 1>will not protect themselves. I'm not calling for nothing. I'm

0:43:52.070 --> 0:43:55.410
<v Speaker 1>saying that it is unnatural and unfair.

0:43:57.360 --> 0:44:00.060
<v Speaker 2>&lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt;.

0:44:00.200 --> 0:44:11.629
<v Speaker 1>&lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt; &lt;HAL&gt;

0:44:12.090 --> 0:44:14.850
<v Speaker 1>And then the authorities say, no, no, we are outgunned.

0:44:17.790 --> 0:44:19.970
<v Speaker 2>How many times have you heard that about the Zamazamas?

0:44:20.410 --> 0:44:20.870
<v Speaker 3>No, no, no.

0:44:20.890 --> 0:44:23.750
<v Speaker 2>Hey, these guys, hey, they've got dangerous weapons. And you

0:44:23.790 --> 0:44:24.950
<v Speaker 2>are hearing it from the police.

0:44:24.989 --> 0:44:25.169
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:44:30.600 --> 0:44:35.279
<v Speaker 2>What do you expect the communities to do? Go to Carltonville.

0:44:35.400 --> 0:44:39.380
<v Speaker 1>Remember the documentaries that were done, I think about 15

0:44:39.380 --> 0:44:42.480
<v Speaker 1>years ago, of communities that were coming out to say,

0:44:42.520 --> 0:44:44.560
<v Speaker 1>we can't live like this.

0:44:47.070 --> 0:44:48.029
<v Speaker 2>And then the.

0:44:47.950 --> 0:44:51.969
<v Speaker 1>Same guys, they'll take a hole, have a party downstairs

0:44:52.010 --> 0:44:56.390
<v Speaker 1>and tell the country, no, we want Malva pudding today.

0:44:56.810 --> 0:44:58.790
<v Speaker 1>Today we are hungry for chops.

0:44:59.450 --> 0:45:03.530
<v Speaker 2>Bring them down. And then you've got these high-powered lawyers.

0:45:05.650 --> 0:45:06.750
<v Speaker 2>They fight for human rights.

0:45:09.550 --> 0:45:13.460
<v Speaker 1>You'll never hear those lawyers fighting for those communities who

0:45:13.540 --> 0:45:19.500
<v Speaker 1>are law-abiding. You'll never hear them. Until a tiger gets loose.

0:45:19.560 --> 0:45:23.830
<v Speaker 1>They've never found that tiger. He's still at large today.

0:45:26.950 --> 0:45:31.780
<v Speaker 1>And when communities complain... They are silenced. Some of us

0:45:31.800 --> 0:45:37.629
<v Speaker 1>are also beginning to be silenced now. They are told, no,

0:45:37.690 --> 0:45:42.630
<v Speaker 1>I know you are. Here, just as you go to

0:45:42.670 --> 0:45:47.870
<v Speaker 1>Rustinburg in the northwest, it's a crying shame.

0:45:48.170 --> 0:45:49.989
<v Speaker 2>I wish South Africans could go there and go and check.

0:45:51.010 --> 0:45:55.790
<v Speaker 1>Zama Zama has come there with trucks and TLPs and excavators,

0:45:55.989 --> 0:45:57.710
<v Speaker 1>proper machinery.

0:45:58.210 --> 0:46:00.900
<v Speaker 2>One day, One morning, they just come and they're just digging.

0:46:00.680 --> 0:46:03.380
<v Speaker 1>Right there in your yard. Then they offer you a

0:46:03.400 --> 0:46:04.920
<v Speaker 1>suitcase full of money and they say, shut up.

0:46:05.840 --> 0:46:06.400
<v Speaker 3>Khosh.

0:46:07.320 --> 0:46:18.570
<v Speaker 2>The khoshies. Our khoshies. Our khoshies. So, I hear you days.

0:46:19.450 --> 0:46:23.290
<v Speaker 1>And I'm sad and ashamed that I don't have any power.

0:46:26.230 --> 0:46:29.910
<v Speaker 1>But if you've been listening to me for years, years,

0:46:30.530 --> 0:46:32.310
<v Speaker 1>I've been complaining about these situations.

0:46:33.989 --> 0:46:38.230
<v Speaker 2>And some of us are now also going to have

0:46:38.270 --> 0:46:38.950
<v Speaker 2>to be silenced.

0:46:40.969 --> 0:46:43.410
<v Speaker 1>Because all they do is just put a label on

0:46:43.450 --> 0:46:46.589
<v Speaker 1>you and they paint you with a particular brush and

0:46:46.630 --> 0:46:48.830
<v Speaker 1>then you are cancelled and then it's finished.

0:46:54.170 --> 0:47:00.730
<v Speaker 2>Tabang is in Matosana in the Northwest. Good evening to you, Tabang.

0:47:01.989 --> 0:47:03.890
<v Speaker 2>Good evening, my brother and your team.

0:47:03.930 --> 0:47:04.290
<v Speaker 3>How are you?

0:47:04.650 --> 0:47:08.490
<v Speaker 2>I can't complain, my brother. I can't complain. I complain

0:47:08.530 --> 0:47:09.030
<v Speaker 2>too much.

0:47:10.350 --> 0:47:13.230
<v Speaker 8>You're like me. I complain too much. I'm an activist

0:47:13.270 --> 0:47:17.830
<v Speaker 8>here in Matosana. Every day I complain. And there is

0:47:17.890 --> 0:47:21.469
<v Speaker 8>no one who accounts. And as I say, we don't

0:47:21.510 --> 0:47:21.930
<v Speaker 8>have a leader.

0:47:21.989 --> 0:47:23.280
<v Speaker 2>Our leaders are leaderless.

0:47:25.420 --> 0:47:27.920
<v Speaker 8>You ask yourself if we have a minister who doesn't

0:47:27.940 --> 0:47:30.520
<v Speaker 8>know what's happening in his office, but every month he's

0:47:30.580 --> 0:47:34.920
<v Speaker 8>receiving a salary. And no one is going to account.

0:47:34.960 --> 0:47:42.279
<v Speaker 8>That minister is going to lead us until 2029. My brother,

0:47:42.360 --> 0:47:44.660
<v Speaker 8>on the issue of Zama Zama, I'm staying here in

0:47:44.719 --> 0:47:47.930
<v Speaker 8>Matosana in Northwood. We're surrounded by more than 12 men here.

0:47:49.080 --> 0:47:52.850
<v Speaker 8>This issue of Zama Zama is a serious problem, especially

0:47:52.950 --> 0:47:55.650
<v Speaker 8>on the gold mine here. You remember last time our

0:47:55.690 --> 0:47:59.629
<v Speaker 8>government spent almost 14 million here in Matrosana in Stelefanti

0:48:00.170 --> 0:48:02.589
<v Speaker 8>when Zama Zama was trapped there underground.

0:48:02.630 --> 0:48:05.750
<v Speaker 1>They were asking for nice food.

0:48:06.410 --> 0:48:09.090
<v Speaker 3>Wi-Fi, Bluetooth.

0:48:09.210 --> 0:48:11.610
<v Speaker 8>I was complaining about it. They spent a lot of

0:48:11.730 --> 0:48:15.520
<v Speaker 8>money there. I was complaining this. Even now, as we

0:48:15.540 --> 0:48:19.360
<v Speaker 8>speak now, that stuff, the Zamazamas are mining again.

0:48:22.880 --> 0:48:25.840
<v Speaker 3>Again, they risked freedom. They spent almost 12 million.

0:48:26.760 --> 0:48:31.660
<v Speaker 8>They are mining again. It is something normal. And funny enough,

0:48:32.140 --> 0:48:35.739
<v Speaker 8>we know those people, even some of the police, Are

0:48:35.760 --> 0:48:39.210
<v Speaker 8>they beneficial of Doug Zama Zama? That's only lifestyle audit.

0:48:39.670 --> 0:48:42.729
<v Speaker 8>How can a constable manage to buy more than four cars,

0:48:43.330 --> 0:48:48.049
<v Speaker 8>even a house of 600,000? But he's earning less than 15,000.

0:48:48.030 --> 0:48:54.040
<v Speaker 8>But this is something normal. We take those issues, we

0:48:54.080 --> 0:48:58.759
<v Speaker 8>write to the SIU, to this guy, but there is

0:48:58.820 --> 0:48:59.839
<v Speaker 8>nothing come out there.

0:49:01.230 --> 0:49:05.319
<v Speaker 1>Me, my relationship with the Human Rights Commission of South

0:49:05.340 --> 0:49:07.000
<v Speaker 1>Africa broke down because of that thing.

0:49:07.940 --> 0:49:10.919
<v Speaker 8>The Human Rights Commission, I have a problem with them.

0:49:10.960 --> 0:49:13.049
<v Speaker 2>No, no. They don't talk to me anymore.

0:49:17.110 --> 0:49:17.880
<v Speaker 1>Because.

0:49:18.540 --> 0:49:22.259
<v Speaker 8>Even myself, the same person of them.

0:49:22.420 --> 0:49:27.520
<v Speaker 1>Because I said to them, is it not interesting that

0:49:28.360 --> 0:49:32.980
<v Speaker 1>every time, and it was during that Stellfontein moment, I

0:49:33.040 --> 0:49:38.130
<v Speaker 1>said to the Human Rights Commission, is it not interesting

0:49:38.190 --> 0:49:42.799
<v Speaker 1>that you guys always have something very powerful to say

0:49:42.860 --> 0:49:46.760
<v Speaker 1>about human rights. When those who have broken the laws

0:49:47.000 --> 0:49:49.700
<v Speaker 1>are busy breaking the laws demonstrably so we can see

0:49:49.739 --> 0:49:52.259
<v Speaker 1>them doing it, then you tell us, oh, they are

0:49:52.300 --> 0:49:54.930
<v Speaker 1>human beings also. We must love them also. We must

0:49:54.969 --> 0:49:58.630
<v Speaker 1>give them a fair chance, which is fine. But I

0:49:58.690 --> 0:50:02.370
<v Speaker 1>don't hear you say anything about the communities that they

0:50:02.590 --> 0:50:03.450
<v Speaker 1>are terrorizing.

0:50:04.630 --> 0:50:04.710
<v Speaker 3>Oh.

0:50:06.040 --> 0:50:09.520
<v Speaker 2>You never say those things. That lady, she was very

0:50:09.580 --> 0:50:10.080
<v Speaker 2>angry with me.

0:50:12.739 --> 0:50:15.150
<v Speaker 8>Even last time, when I talked to the chairperson of

0:50:15.190 --> 0:50:17.569
<v Speaker 8>the woman, right, because they are the ones who take

0:50:17.630 --> 0:50:20.230
<v Speaker 8>the Northwest to court so that those people, they must

0:50:20.290 --> 0:50:22.670
<v Speaker 8>be rescued. Because of now my mandate, I say they

0:50:22.690 --> 0:50:25.110
<v Speaker 8>must put tea, I guess, and crash at it to

0:50:25.170 --> 0:50:28.540
<v Speaker 8>close that door. They rescued those people. After that, I

0:50:28.640 --> 0:50:30.660
<v Speaker 8>asked the same person of the woman. I say, there

0:50:30.700 --> 0:50:34.799
<v Speaker 8>is a man in Limpopo, Lillian man. Three people are

0:50:34.880 --> 0:50:37.620
<v Speaker 8>trapped there, South African. You didn't do nothing. You didn't

0:50:37.660 --> 0:50:40.410
<v Speaker 8>take man to court. But when it comes to foreigner,

0:50:40.430 --> 0:50:44.290
<v Speaker 8>you act fast. So human rights means it's not for us.

0:50:44.370 --> 0:50:45.230
<v Speaker 2>It's for the foreigner.

0:50:45.310 --> 0:50:46.390
<v Speaker 8>I don't want to lie to you.

0:50:46.450 --> 0:50:47.529
<v Speaker 3>All the best thing is.

0:50:48.030 --> 0:50:49.989
<v Speaker 2>So what I'm saying to you is that.

0:50:52.510 --> 0:50:54.550
<v Speaker 1>That is why I was having the conversation with a

0:50:54.650 --> 0:51:00.589
<v Speaker 1>good professor earlier on to say, it might not be so.

0:51:00.670 --> 0:51:03.050
<v Speaker 1>Maybe we are making a mistake, some of us, because

0:51:03.070 --> 0:51:11.210
<v Speaker 1>we are not learned enough to understand how this constitutional

0:51:11.370 --> 0:51:16.650
<v Speaker 1>order with its wonderful human rights seems to feel to

0:51:16.810 --> 0:51:22.400
<v Speaker 1>us who are South African law abiding citizens. Just the

0:51:22.420 --> 0:51:25.180
<v Speaker 1>people of Rivoli. I've been in that community. I've done

0:51:25.219 --> 0:51:28.469
<v Speaker 1>stories in that community about the criminality that is taking

0:51:28.510 --> 0:51:31.989
<v Speaker 1>place at the hands of zamazamas. But they can't say

0:51:32.090 --> 0:51:35.270
<v Speaker 1>anything because if they say something, somebody is going to say, oh, no, no,

0:51:35.290 --> 0:51:39.390
<v Speaker 1>you are being racist.

0:51:39.430 --> 0:51:42.930
<v Speaker 8>Those people who even do zamazamas when they leave, they

0:51:42.950 --> 0:51:46.180
<v Speaker 8>are escorted by the police. So all I'm saying to

0:51:46.219 --> 0:51:48.759
<v Speaker 8>you is that then it is no wonder. You go

0:51:48.800 --> 0:51:51.040
<v Speaker 8>to Rivoli, you go to... I was in Papua not

0:51:51.280 --> 0:51:51.719
<v Speaker 8>too long ago.

0:51:51.739 --> 0:51:53.600
<v Speaker 2>It is terrible what is happening there.

0:52:15.180 --> 0:52:19.860
<v Speaker 1>To such an extent that the normal law-abiding citizens are

0:52:19.880 --> 0:52:24.410
<v Speaker 1>scared to talk to us as journalists when we come

0:52:24.469 --> 0:52:26.529
<v Speaker 1>to talk to them. They're scared. They don't want to

0:52:26.570 --> 0:52:30.310
<v Speaker 1>talk because they know that as soon as they speak,

0:52:31.150 --> 0:52:33.450
<v Speaker 1>the big bosses of the zamazamas, they are going to

0:52:33.489 --> 0:52:34.640
<v Speaker 1>know what they spoke to us.

0:52:35.500 --> 0:52:36.540
<v Speaker 2>So they don't speak anymore.

0:52:37.100 --> 0:52:39.160
<v Speaker 1>And the only people that are willing to stand up

0:52:39.239 --> 0:52:43.100
<v Speaker 1>and speak now are the ones that speak for the zamazamas.

0:52:44.450 --> 0:52:47.560
<v Speaker 1>So you'll go to somebody and they'll say, no, no, no,

0:52:47.600 --> 0:52:50.500
<v Speaker 1>these people are, at least they're giving us food. At

0:52:50.520 --> 0:52:52.270
<v Speaker 1>least they're giving us money and jobs.

0:52:52.690 --> 0:52:53.650
<v Speaker 2>Fine, no problem.

0:52:54.310 --> 0:52:56.739
<v Speaker 1>But I can tell you now that the people, if

0:52:56.800 --> 0:53:01.470
<v Speaker 1>you go to somebody's house in Bapong, whose house has.

0:53:01.370 --> 0:53:05.390
<v Speaker 2>Been dug right under, that house is no longer there.

0:53:05.489 --> 0:53:07.469
<v Speaker 2>And I'm going to.