1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: Views and news with Clarence Ford. We all have you force, 2 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:09,960 Speaker 1: use yours call OS one double four six oh five 3 00:00:10,039 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: six seven, join the conversation. I'm ka talk and you 4 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: can watchapp us and O seven two five six seven 5 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 1: one five six seven. If you want to join in 6 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 1: on the conversation. Maybe you want to contribute to Dr 7 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:29,480 Speaker 1: Rose's Doctor Rose Phillips' contribution this morning. Do that via WhatsApp. 8 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: You can call to one four four six oh five 9 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: six seven. Doctor Rose Phillips a business and people strategy 10 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: advisor the founder of Abundance at Work. She joins us 11 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 1: talking about what it takes to unlock an abundance mindset 12 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: and create better futures for business, planet, society, and for 13 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: number one. So Doctor Rose Phillips, welcome, it's great to 14 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 1: have you. And to day you're arguing that instead of 15 00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:00,200 Speaker 1: relying on one mentor, you should be building what she 16 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: calls a personal board of directors. Welcome, it's good to 17 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: have you. 18 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:08,320 Speaker 2: Thank you, Clarence. Fellow listeners, good to be back. 19 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. I would imagine that you would kind of employ 20 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: the people in your universe, in your friendship kind of 21 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: circles and family kind of circles why do we have 22 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 1: to think of careers as something we manage on our own? 23 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know what, actually you do need to think. 24 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 3: About it differently. I think it's because the dominant narrative 25 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 3: up until now is still meritocracy. You know, people still 26 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 3: train us. We still believe that if you work hard 27 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 3: and if you perform well and you progress. But research 28 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 3: has consistently shown that performance is only one part of 29 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 3: the equation. The other part is what scholars now call 30 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 3: social capital. It's your access to relationships exactly what you said, 31 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 3: your access to influence and advocacy. And that's where many people, 32 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 3: especially in unequal. 33 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 2: Societies, in unequal systems. 34 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 3: Like our hours, get stuck. And I thought, given that 35 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 3: we had International Women's Months this month and we closing 36 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 3: off that month, that this would be a good topic 37 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:16,079 Speaker 3: to talk about, that this is something we should consider, 38 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 3: that relationships matter just as much as performance when it 39 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:20,799 Speaker 3: comes to progressing your career. 40 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 1: I get that, and I like where you've taken us 41 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: with this conversation. So your Board of director's idea is 42 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 1: really a way of structuring. 43 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 3: That exactly, and in academic terms, because I want people 44 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 3: to know that this is not just a bright idea 45 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 3: from doctor Rose's experience. But actually this is grounded in theory. 46 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 3: In academic terms, we call those sort of a developmental network. 47 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:49,079 Speaker 3: I Performing individuals Clearence don't rely on one mentor. They 48 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 3: build up port folio of relationships, a group of relationships, 49 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 3: and each of those relationships serve a different function. And 50 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 3: what I've done is just purely translated. That is something practical. 51 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 2: Caudsu your personal board of director. 52 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 1: I like that. Let's unpack the roles. Let's start with 53 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: a mentor. 54 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, people love mentoring, right, I get asked to be 55 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 3: a mentor, so often. Mentoring is the most researched of 56 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 3: all these relationships, and studies show that mentors provide two 57 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,639 Speaker 3: kind of functions. The first it's to provide career guidance, 58 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 3: makes sense, and then secondly to provide psychosocial support, so 59 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 3: that help you interpret the system of work. They interpret 60 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 3: your career options for you and to you, and they 61 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 3: transferred their experience. But mentoring is inherently backward looking. It 62 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 3: tells you what has worked before, it doesn't necessarily tell 63 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 3: you what could be coming ahead. 64 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: Another coach tell us about the coach. 65 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, So coaching is also another area that people love 66 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 3: to delve into. But of course coaching costs you money, 67 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 3: and coaching comes from a different discipline. It comes from psychology. 68 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 3: It focuses on self awareness, on cognitive reframing, reframing a problem, 69 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 3: restraining a situation, rethinking how you are looking at it, 70 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 3: changing your perspective, and then behavioral change. Now, a coach 71 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 3: doesn't give you answers you. Your coaches usually sit there 72 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 3: and ask you what you think. They build your capacity 73 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 3: to think. 74 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 2: That's the job. 75 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:19,159 Speaker 3: So while a mentor gives you direction, a coach is 76 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 3: there to help you strengthen your decision making. 77 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 1: All important roles. I guess. And there's a career counselor 78 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:26,840 Speaker 1: then as well, isn't there. 79 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, So usually inside organizations people appoint career councilors, somebody 80 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 3: that is ahead of you, understands the organization a little 81 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 3: bit better than you and can sort of help you 82 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,839 Speaker 3: cross And this comes from the career development theory, and 83 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 3: it's about navigating career pathways. It's about understanding skills and 84 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:47,359 Speaker 3: transitions inside an organization and then the emerging opportunities that 85 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:50,720 Speaker 3: are happening inside the organization, especially in a world where 86 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 3: careers are. 87 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 2: No longer linear as we know. 88 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 3: I mean, there's so many different things one can do 89 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 3: with one set of qualifications because it's all about skills. 90 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:01,600 Speaker 3: They don't tell you where to go, but they do 91 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 3: help you see what is possible and help you focus 92 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:06,600 Speaker 3: as they do give you a bit more of a 93 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:08,839 Speaker 3: forward looking agenda. 94 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 1: Okay, then there's the career body. It feels less formal. 95 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 1: Is the theory is there is the theory behind that 96 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: as well? Or is it just a comrade? 97 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 3: It is a little bit of a choremi and I 98 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 3: hope people are now starting to recognize the point I 99 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 3: was making that just having a mentor is not enough. 100 00:05:31,160 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 2: They are multiporals that you can. 101 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 3: Tap into for your career. So career body is come 102 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 3: from peer learning theory and naturals that people develop faster 103 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:45,720 Speaker 3: when they have shaped reflection, mutual accountability, and psychological safety. 104 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 3: And it's much safer to talk to people that are 105 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 3: going through the similar experiences that you are, that are 106 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:56,600 Speaker 3: your peers. Not everything can be processed in hierarchical relationships. 107 00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 3: Some growth does happen best alongside above. 108 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: And I would imagine the sponsor finds a very important 109 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: critical role there as well. 110 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:14,039 Speaker 3: Years yeah, yes, the important thing plarents this is the 111 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:19,839 Speaker 3: most undervalued, under talked about category of relationships that people 112 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:23,599 Speaker 3: should have. And honestly, very few, be very few people 113 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 3: leverage sponsors. Yeah, as you said, they're critical and this 114 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:30,479 Speaker 3: is where the research for me come becomes very clear, 115 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 3: and certainly in my career has been very really helpful. 116 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 3: And that comes from social capital here, you know, having 117 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 3: social capital, not just economic capital, and leadership studies showed 118 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 3: us as well. That shows that advancement doesn't happen through 119 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 3: competence alone. 120 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 2: As I've said, it. 121 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 3: Happens when someone with power, someone worth power, someone with 122 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:52,760 Speaker 3: a seat at the table, advertise for you, recommend you, 123 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 3: and create opportunities for you. And that means that a mentor, 124 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 3: you think about it, a mentor talks to you, that 125 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 3: is answer, talks about you, especially in rooms where you're 126 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 3: not in or cannot access, and that difference change is 127 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 3: a career. But now you're the important thing is Clarence. 128 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 3: You can't find a sponsor, you don't sown a sponsor 129 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 3: and say please. 130 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 2: Be my sponsor. They find you. 131 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 3: It's usually someone that looks at you and says, this 132 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 3: person is going somewhere or this is somebody whose career 133 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 3: I'm watching, or this is someone I would love to 134 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 3: help advance their career because they look like me, they 135 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 3: sound like me. They don't even look like me or 136 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 3: sound like me, but they deserve a chance in life. 137 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 3: You don't even know sometimes that this particular person is 138 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 3: speaking on your behop and anybody can be a sponsor. 139 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 3: You can be a sponsor to me. I can be 140 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 3: a sponsor to you. There's a gig coming up, and 141 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 3: I would say, have you thought about Clarence for it? 142 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 3: There's a speaking engagement coming up, saying have you thought 143 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 3: about Clarence Ford? And the person might not even have 144 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 3: known about the skills that you have, would I do? 145 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 2: So that is the role of a answer. 146 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 3: But as I say, you don't find them, they find 147 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 3: you noted. 148 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: So okay, let's bring this all together, let's see everybody 149 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: around the book. Then what does it tell us? 150 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:14,800 Speaker 2: I tells us something quite profound. 151 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 3: In my mind, no single relationship is sufficient, and no 152 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 3: career succeeds in isolation. No matter what you read or 153 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 3: listen to on YouTube or read on social media, the 154 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 3: evidence shows that people who progress are those who build 155 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 3: intentional networks of support and a board of directs is 156 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 3: a slimply a structured way of doing just that. Some 157 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 3: people know that very well, particularly around people that have 158 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 3: been in the workforce for a very long time. Generally 159 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 3: more men, women tend to be slow in terms of 160 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 3: building a network. So this is networking, but it's networking 161 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:54,079 Speaker 3: with structure. 162 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: South Africa is a difficult space though. 163 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 3: M Yeah, the research for me becomes even more relevant 164 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 3: here because access to networks in our country is uneven. 165 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 3: That's true, right, which means that two people with equal 166 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 3: talent can have very very different outcomes. I don't have 167 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 3: to say that to the listeners, and I think because 168 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:18,559 Speaker 3: of ability, but because of exposure, because of advocacy, because 169 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 3: of access, because of social capital or the lack of 170 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,560 Speaker 3: social capital that some of us might be born with. 171 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 3: A personal board becomes a way of correcting that imbalance. 172 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:33,959 Speaker 1: I get you. I see doctor Bukus sent as a 173 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: message Happy Monday, Clarence. 174 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:35,679 Speaker 2: May. 175 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: I say that mentoring is not backward looking. It's about 176 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: staying ahead of the curve and showing you mentee how 177 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: to engage forward mobility. In a natural coaching has elements 178 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: of mentoring unlocking professional potential Sorea with that message, I 179 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: don't know if you want to respond. 180 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 2: No, no, no, not at all. 181 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 3: I find that there are certainly mentors that do help 182 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:58,199 Speaker 3: you unlock the future. 183 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:00,120 Speaker 2: But I do feel. 184 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 3: That looking only to a mentor to achieve the entire 185 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 3: full circle of your career progression is not enoughing that's 186 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 3: the point I'm trying to make. 187 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:11,439 Speaker 2: But yes, I can accept that. 188 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: Okay, So let's stay with what South African reality is 189 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 1: for a moment. We haven't high watering unemployment working on 190 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: the future now, uh yeah, that's a crazy rate. But 191 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: for some listening right now, without a job, no title, 192 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 1: there's no organization, does this idea of a board of 193 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: directors still apply? 194 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 3: It does clear, inspect, it's speak clear, it does look different, right. 195 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 3: Unemployment in South Africa is not one experience as it 196 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 3: pertains to. 197 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 2: The world of work. 198 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 3: They are there are those who are repositioning themselves that 199 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 3: they are unemployed in the moment, but they're just nearly repositioning. 200 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 2: They're moving between the roles. 201 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 3: They often have networks and they do have some level 202 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 3: of access because they're both some some social capital. And 203 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 3: then there are those trying to enter the system for 204 00:10:57,760 --> 00:10:59,959 Speaker 3: the first time with far less access and of course 205 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 3: real real constraints. 206 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 2: So yes, it is a different experience. 207 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 1: It makes sense then that the board is not the 208 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: same in both cases. 209 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, exactly. That's right. 210 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 3: For those who are repositioning, your board would look very 211 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:17,599 Speaker 3: traditional the way that I've just explained it mentors with 212 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 3: doctor Pierkus's addition to what she said in terms of 213 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 3: how mentors and career counselors and coaches overlap sponsors and 214 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 3: it helps you accelerate your next move. But for those 215 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:30,720 Speaker 3: who are trying to enter the system for the first time, 216 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 3: your job, you're both can't be formal. It is informal, 217 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 3: you don't have one, but it is foundational. You do 218 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 3: have to both networks, and it might look like someone 219 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 3: in your community who can guide you. It might look 220 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 3: like someone who shares information about opportunities. It might look 221 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 3: like someone who keeps you accountable and encourages you. Or 222 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 3: it might look like someone who connects you even. 223 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 2: Loosely, to the world of work. 224 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 3: So yes, it's not formal, but it's still building relationship. 225 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 3: It's still about a network, and it's possible about these 226 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 3: different kind of roles that people can play in your life. 227 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 1: It sounds much more informal, almost like building your way 228 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:10,559 Speaker 1: into a system. 229 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. 230 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, because before you build influence, your both connection and 231 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 3: before you access opportunity, you have. 232 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:21,959 Speaker 2: To both visibility. That's important. You have to be visible. 233 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: So the boat that exists, but in a different form. 234 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's It's less about titles in this case, when 235 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 3: you are unemployed and for the first time trying to 236 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 3: enter the job market, it's more about staying connected to 237 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 3: the system. And this is important because I think that 238 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 3: so many of our young people are giving up right 239 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 3: and so they isolate themselves, they become lonely. They don't 240 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 3: try and remain visible and ad as that might be that, 241 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 3: it's probably be seeing that both say you have to 242 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,679 Speaker 3: stay stay visible. The biggest risk when people are excluded 243 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 3: from formal work is not loss of income, it's disconnection. 244 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 3: Because once you are disconnected, you don't get to hear 245 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 3: about opportunities Clarence, you don't get referred, you don't get seen. 246 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 1: Okay. So the board in that case then is really 247 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: about staying visible. 248 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:09,920 Speaker 3: A person luten me exactly, even if it's small, even 249 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 3: if it's informal, even if it's just a conversation, a contact, 250 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 3: a shape lead. That is how. 251 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 2: Opportunity begins to open for you. 252 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:21,559 Speaker 3: So you find these sponsors or how these sponsors find you. So, No, 253 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 3: you don't need a perfect board. You don't need a 254 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 3: formal board. You just need points of connection, and from 255 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 3: those a board can grow. Now, whether you're entering the 256 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 3: system or moving within it or around it, careers are 257 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 3: store both through people. That's the most important point I 258 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:39,640 Speaker 3: want to make here. You can't progress on your own. 259 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 3: It's not just about your performance. The form may change, 260 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 3: but the principle doesn't change. 261 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. 262 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: Okay, So somebody listening right now, what what what do 263 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 1: they do today? 264 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 2: Yeah? 265 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 3: Okay, So I would I would say to store those 266 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 3: in two three things that I think. The first, I 267 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 3: would say, stay active, right as you said, stay visible, 268 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 3: Stay in motion, even if it's informal, even if you're 269 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 3: doing voluntary work, even if you're doing charitable work. Yeah, 270 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:17,680 Speaker 3: even if it's volunteering or something small. Just stay invisible, 271 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 3: stay in conversation, reach out the next day present. 272 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: I mean. 273 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 3: The third one, I would say, stay in relationships, stay 274 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 3: in networks. Because your board is not built on st 275 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 3: it's built on connections. As I keep saying, you know 276 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 3: what a job can be taken away, but over time 277 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 3: you get to learn this. Relationships, those that you build 278 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 3: intentionally are often what brings you back and what stage 279 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 3: it keeps you connected in society and keeps you relevant. 280 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: Okay, So before I go to my next instinctive question, 281 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: Manual writes via the WhatsApp line on our seven two 282 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: five six seven one five six seven, we're talking to 283 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 1: our favorite African futures doctor Rose Phillips. Regular conversation happens 284 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: every alternate Monday. It's eleven twenty three. Manual says these 285 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 1: sponsors should be mindful not to cannibalize other people's roles 286 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: to benefit those identify these identified stars, as it destroys 287 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: these others and impacts culture. 288 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 3: What is man and that's a manual, that's a deep, 289 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 3: a deep point is making. I'd love to actually hear 290 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 3: what he actually means by virtue of experience, But I 291 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 3: would like to believe that in a country like ours, 292 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 3: where we have skills in people that never become visible, 293 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 3: a high unemployment rate, and an economy that must grow, 294 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 3: the real problem is not cannibalization. 295 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 2: The real problem is creating your opportunity. 296 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. 297 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 3: So firstly, I don't think that it is about cannibalization. 298 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 3: And I think if there are enough sponsors, every single 299 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 3: one of us will have someone that can speak on 300 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 3: our behalf. 301 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 2: So there shouldn't be anybody. 302 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 3: Wondering that is my job to be cannibalized, because if 303 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:04,240 Speaker 3: you're good at what you do, that shouldn't be worrying you. 304 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 1: Absolutely. Okay, So what should we take away from this 305 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: more broadly? 306 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, start with awayness. Ask yourself what am I relying on? 307 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 3: Where am I relying on one relationship? Where am I 308 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 3: hoping that one person is looking after me and sadly 309 00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 3: that one person is just you yourself and I. It's 310 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 3: even even worse when I actually need a system and 311 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 3: then begin to both both both slowly building changially, one 312 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 3: relationship at a time. 313 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 2: That's what I would say. 314 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 1: Rose. You've described this. It strikes me that the need 315 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 1: for this kind of career support is growing. Are we 316 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 1: looking at something bigger? Yeah? Almost a new kind of 317 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: work or profession working on the. 318 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 2: Future now, Yeah, yeah, we are. 319 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 3: It's an important shift and maybe this helps my point 320 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 3: about creating new job opportunities as careers become more complex. 321 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 3: With the near and more uncertain, the need for structured 322 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 3: supporters increasing, and that of course creates opportunities. There's space 323 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,159 Speaker 3: now for people who have left corporate, maybe retired, looking 324 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:12,200 Speaker 3: to retire, looking for their next career. Was simply developed 325 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 3: deep experience that they want to share to step into 326 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 3: roles as mentors or coaches and advisors. 327 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, and often that's too way streets as well. I 328 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,399 Speaker 1: guess this isn't just about receiving support, it's also about 329 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:26,199 Speaker 1: providing it. 330 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, you can't build a board of directors and 331 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 3: there are people on the other side prepared. 332 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:34,640 Speaker 2: To be on your board of directors. Right. 333 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 3: In many ways, we're seeing the emergence of a career 334 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 3: support ecosystems because I think in South Africa's going to 335 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 3: become increasingly more important as we struggle with this unemployment 336 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 3: challenge that we have and a growing number of young 337 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,439 Speaker 3: people that are starting to feel very, very despondent. Some 338 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 3: will choose to formalize it, some will become certified cultures, 339 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:57,880 Speaker 3: and you know, I encourage that some both advisory practices. 340 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,919 Speaker 3: I encourage that as well. This will do it more 341 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:05,400 Speaker 3: informing and I absolutely encourage this mentor young professionals, support 342 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 3: those entering the workforce. And there's something important here, Clarence. 343 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 3: This is not just economic right. Yeah, so yes, you 344 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 3: can obviously contribute to society and make a little bit 345 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:18,400 Speaker 3: more income and continue to be relevant and look after 346 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:22,120 Speaker 3: yourself and not have to rely on the state. It's 347 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 3: intergenerational knowledge, experience judgment. They should not retire in people do. 348 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:28,719 Speaker 3: They should be reinvested into the system. 349 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: So that's a way of staying relevant and contributing. Even 350 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:34,160 Speaker 1: when you've hung up your guns. 351 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 3: Precisely, you move from building a career to in aging 352 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 3: the career of others, and in doing so you remain 353 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 3: part of the system, not outside of it. 354 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:47,439 Speaker 1: Okay, we've got to close, Doctor Rose time out enemy 355 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,880 Speaker 1: always any final thoughts, Yeah, Clarence. 356 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:53,479 Speaker 3: I've also said the research is clear and it's certainly 357 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 3: borne out by my own years of experience. Show can 358 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 3: I believe it's the ty years already as a professional. 359 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 3: Careers are not built on competence alone. 360 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 2: It never was. 361 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 3: They are both on relationships that translate competence into opportunity. 362 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 3: In addition to compact, course, you have to be competent, 363 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 3: you have to be good at what you do. You 364 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,919 Speaker 3: can't just rely on relationships to get you where you 365 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,160 Speaker 3: need to be. You have to be somebody who someone 366 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 3: will want to advocate for. But the relationships do translate 367 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 3: competence into opportunities, and the future will belong to those 368 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 3: who understand that and design for it and for me, 369 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 3: for everyone listening. Having a board of directors is a 370 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,639 Speaker 3: structured way to do just that. And I would argue 371 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 3: some of the challenges we have when we are learning 372 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:45,919 Speaker 3: to work from home and we allow our young people 373 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 3: to sit at their computers all day wrong long and 374 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:52,880 Speaker 3: not engage with anybody around them. 375 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:54,159 Speaker 2: That is an. 376 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 3: Opportunity for social capital building that is fast and furiously 377 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 3: being lost in the world. So please don't just rely on. 378 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 2: Yourself, bold relationships, stay connected. Build your board of. 379 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: Directors absolutely, And I don't want people to think of 380 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: it as a kind of board that you would sit 381 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: on in a corporate kind of world. This is not 382 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: that kind of formal board, is it. It's it's it's 383 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: it's you know, you're relying on skills essentially within your universe. 384 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, you're relying on skills in your universe. But where 385 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,359 Speaker 3: it becomes structured in the way when I say a board, 386 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:34,479 Speaker 3: they have one intent that board. Boards of directors have 387 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 3: one intent. They have a usially responsibility to make sure 388 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 3: that a company is succeeding in a government way and 389 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 3: delivers value to the shareholders. Now, when I am a 390 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 3: Rose Phillips Pty Limited and I have my board of directors, 391 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 3: my board of directors are very clear. Their intent is 392 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 3: to help me be a successful human being in the 393 00:20:55,480 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 3: way that I define success, both professionally and purposefully personally. 394 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:05,880 Speaker 3: And they do that as career counselors, as sponsors, as guides, 395 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,160 Speaker 3: as bodies, as mentors, and as coaches. 396 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 1: And then and they aligned, they aligned with your values. 397 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. 398 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 3: Absolutely, they know me, they know what is important for me. 399 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 3: But they also see things that I might not be 400 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 3: able to see. 401 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why we're all different in this beautiful, big 402 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: world call eight billion of us amazing doctor doctors. Think 403 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: if your time as always Doctor Rose our favorite African 404 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 1: futurist every alternate Monday, and you can find it through 405 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: info at Abundance at work dot Maybe you want to 406 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 1: drop an email info at Abundance at work dot do, 407 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 1: or you can go and visit her on her website 408 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:49,919 Speaker 1: Abundance at work. Of course, dot co dot zda is 409 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,120 Speaker 1: where you can find her.