Speaker 1: So too political analysis.
Speaker 2: So lots happening on the politics front, but we could
Speaker 2: not ignore what's been happening this weekend with the DA.
Speaker 2: And I was saying a little earlier as the show
Speaker 2: started that I felt like Theda really looked they looked,
Speaker 2: I don't want to say helpless this weekend in that
Speaker 2: press briefing, but they looked like they were trying to
Speaker 2: convince you and I that they're still in control.
Speaker 1: Yet I think this weekend, for the first.
Speaker 2: Time, at least for me, I felt like you could
Speaker 2: see that they were not in control and are not
Speaker 2: in control over affairs in this GNU. Of course, they
Speaker 2: had the press briefing after giving the president that forty
Speaker 2: eight hour ultimatum saying, if you do not fire the
Speaker 2: other ministers as well, after you sacked Andrew Whitfield, then
Speaker 2: we are going to make a big announcement on the GNU,
Speaker 2: and we are going to be announcing that after the
Speaker 2: eight hour period lapse. That's now. Of course, it came
Speaker 2: and it went, and they were supposed to make this announcement,
Speaker 2: and I don't know about you, but I think many
Speaker 2: people were a little underwhelmed by the announcement that they
Speaker 2: made essentially saying they're going to be withdrawing from the
Speaker 2: National Dialogue. They will be participating in that, and they
Speaker 2: I think also maybe a lot more important than the
Speaker 2: National Dialogue withdrawal. They said they would not be or
Speaker 2: they would be voting down the budgets of A and
Speaker 2: C ministers or ministers that they deemed to be corrupt.
Speaker 2: So that's really what happened at the weekend. Panita Hunter,
Speaker 2: a freelance journalist, has written for News twenty four an
Speaker 2: analysis piece saying the DA's strange performative outrage in the
Speaker 2: g and U soap opera. She joins us now live Pnisa,
Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining us on the Aubri
Speaker 2: massan Wo show this evening.
Speaker 1: I maybe let's start with.
Speaker 2: This headline, because really it is giving soap opera vibes,
Speaker 2: isn't it.
Speaker 3: Quancert, thank you so much with this and wonderful chatting
Speaker 3: to you. It's a never ending uh theater. They are
Speaker 3: more you know, more boring days than others. But when
Speaker 3: it gets intense like this, one wonders.
Speaker 1: To what end?
Speaker 3: And so you're right to say, you know this this
Speaker 3: weekend seemed a little bit underwhelming to many people because
Speaker 3: you know, this is probably the fifth iteration of the
Speaker 3: DA issuing some sort of ultimatum. And one can understand
Speaker 3: that multiple things can be true at one time.
Speaker 1: Hoos.
Speaker 3: So you know, being undermined by your coalition partner in
Speaker 3: the form of presidence.
Speaker 1: So Ramaposa unilaterally deciding.
Speaker 3: To remove a president and you feel jilted, I mean
Speaker 3: a deputy minister rather, and you feel jilted about that.
Speaker 3: Sure you know you have the DA has all the
Speaker 3: right to to to feel that way. But secondly, this
Speaker 3: didn't come as a ball that of the blue. This
Speaker 3: was something that was addressed in cabin It. Ministers and
Speaker 3: deputy ministers were informed about this particular piece of legislation
Speaker 3: and that there is president in the form of William
Speaker 3: Mandela and the form of UH for Master road Lag. Yeah,
Speaker 3: who were who were sacked because of this very thing? Right,
Speaker 3: if you feel like it's unjustified, you know the d
Speaker 3: A can can can you resist? But at the end
Speaker 3: of the day, the president had told the Democratic Alliance
Speaker 3: leader that give another name and and and we would
Speaker 3: replace that position. So it's it's it's almost what they
Speaker 3: call a d A position in the GNU. So if
Speaker 3: the d A decided to make this the hill they
Speaker 3: die on. If this is you know, the ultimate red
Speaker 3: line that or the line that they throwing in the sand,
Speaker 3: there's absolutely no problem to it. But then you cannot
Speaker 3: issue an ultimatum and then uh make a decision that
Speaker 3: has no bearing on your participation in the GA in
Speaker 3: the GNU, because a National Dialogue doesn't even have a
Speaker 3: steering committee just yet, right, so we don't even know
Speaker 3: if it's going to be open to political parties, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which makes me wonder. I mean, were they trying
Speaker 2: to seem like they were doing something, because when the
Speaker 2: forty eight hour period lapsed, we were now all waiting,
Speaker 2: and I suppose they had to make some sort of
Speaker 2: an announcement.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So the reality of it is that whether a president
Speaker 3: is governing by coalition or not, he is the president
Speaker 3: and in terms of the law, it's only him that
Speaker 3: hires and fires his executive Right. So, did Ramaposta do
Speaker 3: anything wrong? No, he just exercised his power that was
Speaker 3: given to him by the Democratic Alliance and many other
Speaker 3: political parties that now formed the g and U. If
Speaker 3: the DA decides by its own volition that this president
Speaker 3: that it had low owned its votes to in parliament
Speaker 3: is not worthy and that the arrangement that they have. Remember,
Speaker 3: the g and u is basically a fancy way of saying,
Speaker 3: we borrow you our votes in parliament in exchange for positions.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: So if the DA doesn't do its part, which is,
Speaker 3: for example, vote for a budget, because that's the only
Speaker 3: reason why you'd be in coalition is to to so
Speaker 3: that you can co govern and take things across the line.
Speaker 3: That's the difficulty with a minority government, right, is that
Speaker 3: you you're not you're not always you're not always able
Speaker 3: to take things across the line when it comes to lawmaking,
Speaker 3: when it comes when it comes to pass or first
Speaker 3: in the in the first instant, you know, electing a president,
Speaker 3: secondly passing off budgets, thirdly making of legislation right, and
Speaker 3: then obviously further down the road is changing of the
Speaker 3: constitution et cetera.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: So that's essentially what a g and u is is
Speaker 3: that it's an it's it's a it's a we decide
Speaker 3: we're going to govern together and as a result, we're
Speaker 3: going to support your endeavor as president ram A posa
Speaker 3: and the majority party being the ANC. Now the DA
Speaker 3: coming out and saying okay, let's forget about the national
Speaker 3: dialogue part of it, but saying we're going to go
Speaker 3: vote against the budgets of corrupt ministers. It essentially says
Speaker 3: we are okay to that departments of a government that
Speaker 3: we are part of can hald to a grind, uh,
Speaker 3: you know, if we don't get our way, So we
Speaker 3: don't actually care if the minister if, for example, needy
Speaker 3: students get the money needed funded through the Department of
Speaker 3: Higher Education, because we have a problem with the sitting minister.
Speaker 3: So that's where things become quite complicated. And what I
Speaker 3: argue today in my column News twenty four is that
Speaker 3: it becomes a charade because everyone knows that the real
Speaker 3: decision is whether you in or out.
Speaker 1: One knows that.
Speaker 3: The DA has threatened to leave at least five times
Speaker 3: when it was the Bella Act, when it became came
Speaker 3: to expropriation without compensation, when it came to the budget,
Speaker 3: and so now its just another iteration and people thought, oh, well,
Speaker 3: maybe they are serious, because maybe this is the line
Speaker 3: that they don't want to be crusted. But at the
Speaker 3: same time, the DA is living with the reality that
Speaker 3: they they they believe that it's better for them to
Speaker 3: be in the GNU than out of the GNU. So
Speaker 3: this takes me to the the second argument that I
Speaker 3: made home so, which is, if you want to be in,
Speaker 3: then use your role of being in constructively instead of
Speaker 3: throwing tantrums. And previously I'd made the argument that do
Speaker 3: you threaten divorced to negotiate it with a house?
Speaker 1: Is that the way? Is that the way to do it? Yes,
Speaker 1: well you should not.
Speaker 3: So, I mean, it's a it's a complicated of course,
Speaker 3: one understands that, you know, it's a frustration that the
Speaker 3: democratic it can't be easy to co govern with a
Speaker 3: party that was your art enemy. But it's a decision
Speaker 3: that you've taken as a democratic alliance.
Speaker 1: And so what does that look like?
Speaker 3: And so for the ministers, the DA ministers, for example,
Speaker 3: the Minister of Homefairs, the Minister of Basic Education, they
Speaker 3: understand that this serves as a this serves as a
Speaker 3: trial run, this serves as.
Speaker 1: A pre show.
Speaker 3: It's it's a you know, an opportunity to show the
Speaker 3: electorate this is what we can do, right, and that's
Speaker 3: that's that's huge.
Speaker 1: That's something the DA never really had in the past.
Speaker 3: Right where you can actually go to the electorate with
Speaker 3: a set of deliverables, because the last election showed us
Speaker 3: that promises people are weary of promises from wherever it
Speaker 3: comes from, which is why the four largest party is
Speaker 3: on didn't grow in and obviously the ANC plummeted, and
Speaker 3: so did the E f F and.
Speaker 1: So did the I f P.
Speaker 3: Right, So this is in addition to the electric to
Speaker 3: say we had a stab at national government and this
Speaker 3: is what we do. So everybody cannot foresee the DA
Speaker 3: walking away. Right, So the modus operandi of expressing dissatisfaction distain,
Speaker 3: et cetera, should it be this one of threatening to
Speaker 3: leave or threatening fracture and causing some sort of pandemonium
Speaker 3: in the country to say, well, we'll we wake up
Speaker 3: with the new national government or with a different national
Speaker 3: government or not every time things don't go your way.
Speaker 3: And so that I think is quite an interesting or
Speaker 3: for me at least a little bit concerning.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, there's there's a there's a
Speaker 2: sentiment that, you know, from what happened this weekend, it's
Speaker 2: starting to look like the DA will won't actually ever leave,
Speaker 2: you know, it's it's starting to feel like it's going
Speaker 2: to take a whole lot for them to leave, and
Speaker 2: even when they make threats, they're not likely to stand
Speaker 2: by them. It's that it's not the sense that you're
Speaker 2: getting like leaving is becoming a fine distant I don't
Speaker 2: even want to say reality, but possibility for the DA.
Speaker 1: And that's fine, homo.
Speaker 3: So in the sense that if the DA has made
Speaker 3: the calculation, the political calculation that says, under no circumstance
Speaker 3: to be had, or we give the ANC what it wants,
Speaker 3: we will. We will challenge them at every corn we
Speaker 3: decide to be in the you know, with this government,
Speaker 3: with the ANC, if they don't want us, they must
Speaker 3: throw us away. That's that's a political decision that's made right.
Speaker 3: But then your actions have to back up that decision
Speaker 3: and honor that, however politically inconvenient. So if you're saying
Speaker 3: you're not backing out of a GNU, you cannot at
Speaker 3: the same time say we are considering emotion of no
Speaker 3: confidence against the president because the g and U exists
Speaker 3: because of that president, that president, that legally elected president
Speaker 3: by more than half of members of Parliament, including the
Speaker 3: Democratic Alliance in Peace, that government exists because of him.
Speaker 3: So if you're voting for a motion of no confidence
Speaker 3: against the president, you're effectively breaking apart the government as
Speaker 3: it stands. Right, So you can't have your cake and
Speaker 3: eat it. If the DA decides we are on a
Speaker 3: mission to collapse the existing government led by presidents, then
Speaker 3: own it, right, But it cannot say that we will
Speaker 3: not leave the g and U. But at the same
Speaker 3: time we mulling emotion of no confidence, which effectively means
Speaker 3: not only the GNU as you know it, but the
Speaker 3: collapse of government completely.
Speaker 1: Yeah, nationally, at.
Speaker 2: Least a colia, what can what can we make of
Speaker 2: the president saying it's okay if you don't want to
Speaker 2: participate in the national dialogue. It's fine for the DA
Speaker 2: not to participate. However, if any minister doesn't participate, that's
Speaker 2: a that's a whole different story. In fact, I want
Speaker 2: to use the right language here because I think I
Speaker 2: remember the President in that story using the term was
Speaker 2: it in subordination? That you know, ministers must must participate
Speaker 2: and so for you know, someone like John cna is
Speaker 2: and this is going to be difficult. What do you
Speaker 2: make of that?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 3: So so that's that's exactly it right. Like I said earlier,
Speaker 3: we don't even know to what degree political parties were
Speaker 3: going to be involved in this, in this in this
Speaker 3: national dialogue. Right, so as a party, if the if
Speaker 3: the DA says we're not going to always sell time
Speaker 3: with it, they are cool fine, right, But ministers, this
Speaker 3: dialogue is the intersection of government, civil society, business and
Speaker 3: ordinary South Africans and chartering a way forward for the country.
Speaker 3: Right it is an initiative of the seventh Administration. There
Speaker 3: are DA ministers in the seventh Administration, in the executive
Speaker 3: and therefore it's an unthinkable scenario where ministers are instructed
Speaker 3: by a president by cabinet just don't pitch up. That
Speaker 3: is clear in subordination, if that, if it were to
Speaker 3: come to that, right and so again, I don't get
Speaker 3: the sense that within the executive itself and in the
Speaker 3: engagements between the competing equalitm not opposing competing political parties
Speaker 3: in the GNU, that there is an acrimony that exists.
Speaker 1: I don't think.
Speaker 3: So people will be surprised by how well some DA
Speaker 3: ministers get along with A ANDC ministers. In fact, sometimes
Speaker 3: they gossip to they gossip to their opponent about their comrades, right,
Speaker 3: because that's the nature of politics. And so this this
Speaker 3: world where you know, the geneus is just this frawth thing.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's possible.
Speaker 3: And and and honestly, I've argued many, many, many many
Speaker 3: times most political parties in the genu have done the
Speaker 3: maths and have come to the conclusion that it is
Speaker 3: better to be in than out.
Speaker 1: And and yes.
Speaker 3: There are times where the the you know, they have
Speaker 3: the envelope has to be pushed a little bit.
Speaker 1: In trying to get your weight.
Speaker 3: For example, the DA would say that what what I
Speaker 3: would call tantrums through around the budget was worth it
Speaker 3: because you don't have a budget, I mean, you don't.
Speaker 1: Have a bat increase.
Speaker 3: The On the other hand, there's a there's a looming
Speaker 3: reality that a calculation was made and that it's definitely
Speaker 3: more worthy to be in.
Speaker 1: And so there's going to be all sorts of political maneuverings.
Speaker 3: The other point that I wanted to make homes, which
Speaker 3: is an interesting one, is we must not forget that
Speaker 3: the DA's elective conference is less than a year away
Speaker 3: twenty twenty six, and as a country we only know
Speaker 3: to talk about factionalism slate politics, that narrative in the
Speaker 3: context of the ANC. We don't know it in the
Speaker 3: context of any other political party. But the DA now
Speaker 3: has the same problems the A and C once had alone,
Speaker 3: which is that they have a taste of governance and
Speaker 3: power so once So that creates a whole different dynamic
Speaker 3: within the Democratic Alliance and a different set of interest.
Speaker 1: Right access to power.
Speaker 3: Changes the nature of internal party dynamics, and so decisions
Speaker 3: made about the GNU or how people show how you know,
Speaker 3: whether whether there's going to be a mass walkout by
Speaker 3: DA ministers or mass stay away or whatever it may be,
Speaker 3: or collective in subordination, however it may play out right
Speaker 3: on the fifteenth of August at the end of the day,
Speaker 3: that's a decision that if the leader takes it or
Speaker 3: whoever has the upper hand in ultimately deciding that, you know,
Speaker 3: it has some bearing on that sort of side position
Speaker 3: within the DA. And we know for a fact that
Speaker 3: there's a competing in between those who believe the ANC
Speaker 3: is disrespecting the DA and that they must just leave,
Speaker 3: and they're there are those who believe that it's worth
Speaker 3: the discomfort of being in the A n C. In
Speaker 3: the Geneura with the a n C and and and
Speaker 3: and sell it to the public as an effort to
Speaker 3: block the extreme left in the form of the e
Speaker 3: f F entering the Government of National Unity. So what
Speaker 3: I'm trying to say is that undoubtedly there's no sort
Speaker 3: of singular position when it comes to the Democratic Alliance,
Speaker 3: and that's why you'll always see it toulting or you know,
Speaker 3: because again before not there was not too much at stake,
Speaker 3: There was no there was no contest for state power internally.
Speaker 3: And it happens anyway in politics. Politics becomes you know,
Speaker 3: in extreme sport when there's when there's real on the
Speaker 3: line versus theoretical power in the form of being an
Speaker 3: official opposition right. And we even saw that in smaller
Speaker 3: parties in the IFP when they got positions you know,
Speaker 3: in municipalities. We even saw it to some degree in
Speaker 3: the EFF where they started governing through coalition in Johannesburg
Speaker 3: and Ecuornic for example. Power changes, power dynamics, and so
Speaker 3: the das are not immune to that, and I do
Speaker 3: think that it's going to be quite fascinating to see
Speaker 3: how that plays out. The point that I've argued today
Speaker 3: Homoso is that it could have been a lot more constructive.
Speaker 2: Yep, we've got freelance journalists Creator Hunter talking us through
Speaker 2: her column on the DA's press briefing at the weekend
Speaker 2: and they position now in the GNU. She calls it
Speaker 2: a performative outrage. What else she got a tantrum? You
Speaker 2: call the tantrums. I've been calling it throwing toys out
Speaker 2: the cut and really it all means the same thing.
Speaker 2: You know this, This really does seem very performative by
Speaker 2: the DA, and I think we've all been wondering what
Speaker 2: this announcement not to be part of the National Dialogue
Speaker 2: actually means. We are taking your contributions on zero double one,
Speaker 2: doua A three seven oh two, So please give us
Speaker 2: a call. I am seeing some of your sms is
Speaker 2: on the SMS line on ey time before I let
Speaker 2: you go. The summation of your column really is questioning
Speaker 2: what this announcement on the National Dialogue actually does or mean.
Speaker 2: But there's a second threat, so to speak, quote unquote
Speaker 2: threat by the DA where they basically say they won't
Speaker 2: be voting voting, or they'll be voting down. I should say,
Speaker 2: the budgets of ministers that they deem to be corrupt.
Speaker 2: Isn't that a little more serious a threat than the initial.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. And so it creates a.
Speaker 3: Situation where the ANC cannot be comfortable that in the
Speaker 3: Government of National Unity all of the partners would support
Speaker 3: it and would have to do what it did for
Speaker 3: the budget, which is make individual deals a case by
Speaker 3: case with other mpace to make sure they have the
Speaker 3: majority to pass the budgets. And again it creates a
Speaker 3: cogmya for the ANC in some ways to say, then, for.
Speaker 1: What reason are we.
Speaker 3: Sort of blending power if you like, to the Democratic
Speaker 3: Alliance in the form of those thirteen executive positions, Because
Speaker 3: the understanding of the GNU and the statement of intend
Speaker 3: which is often invoked, is that the DA will then
Speaker 3: vote and pass legislation and support, et cetera. So it
Speaker 3: creates the room for the ANC, unprovoked or provoked rather
Speaker 3: or not not not self provoked at least, to say,
Speaker 3: then what do we need them for if if if
Speaker 3: it keeps you know, if the if the sort of
Speaker 3: you know, the the barriers or the keep changing. And
Speaker 3: so definitely there were discussions already in the African National
Speaker 3: Congress about national working committee meeting about what this means.
Speaker 3: But there will definitely be an agitation in the any
Speaker 3: C when it meets quite soon about whether whether they
Speaker 3: should just you know, eventually pull the trigger. And just
Speaker 3: like the d A in the A n C, there
Speaker 3: is that sort of uh crust between those who believe,
Speaker 3: you know, having the d A with the n C
Speaker 3: in government is good for the country, and they're those
Speaker 3: who are ehomintally opposed to it. And so this thing
Speaker 3: she ates on both sides the appetite for.
Speaker 1: A relook of it.
Speaker 3: But again, as we've seen with the multiple iterations of
Speaker 3: this before, whether you know, like I said, it was
Speaker 3: budget or before that expropriation, before that bella, et cetera,
Speaker 3: is that it comes down to the ANC saying we
Speaker 3: are not going to get rid of them and be
Speaker 3: blamed for the collapse of government as we know it,
Speaker 3: and the DA saying, well, we're not going to leave
Speaker 3: it willingly. So you know, who actually pulls the trigger
Speaker 3: becomes the interesting point.
Speaker 2: I'm going to wrap this up with a question that
Speaker 2: maybe I should have started with, and that question is
Speaker 2: whether you think we are a step closer towards the
Speaker 2: end of this GNU.
Speaker 3: I think just as a function of time, Yes, because
Speaker 3: remember this this doesn't outlast I think in its currenty
Speaker 3: relation the the you know, much after the local government elections.
Speaker 1: Right again, the.
Speaker 3: Incentive for parties are essentially just you know, to use
Speaker 3: it as a as a mechanism to show the election
Speaker 3: to what they can do with with limited power. So
Speaker 3: hopefully the elected will extend that power. Right And so
Speaker 3: I think that it's healthy like you know, throw tantrums
Speaker 3: right like the you know, that's that's the nature of
Speaker 3: coalition politics. It's exactly that push and pull and compromise,
Speaker 3: and it's just up to you to decide whether you
Speaker 3: want it to your participation to be constructive or not.
Speaker 3: And that's not something I was going to hunt a
Speaker 3: yo Homoso can dictate to the DA. The DA has
Speaker 3: to decide for itself. And given the reaction even from
Speaker 3: DA supporters to say you need to decide whether you're
Speaker 3: going to be a hardline or not, you can't threaten
Speaker 3: to be a heart to take a hard line position
Speaker 3: and then kind of you know, try to negotiate your
Speaker 3: way down and try to make it seem that you're
Speaker 3: flexing your muscle when there's actually nothing there, So it
Speaker 3: really is about whether or not the theatrics benefit the
Speaker 3: country or benefit the DA, And from where I'm standing,
Speaker 3: it benefits nobody, not even the DA's only electric because
Speaker 3: as we know, there's only so many times you can
Speaker 3: cry wolf.
Speaker 2: Cector Hunter, a freelance gennalist who's talking us through her
Speaker 2: column in News twenty four on the das I don't
Speaker 2: want to call I'm just gonna say press briefing this
Speaker 2: weekend where we saw the DA coming out to address
Speaker 2: or to give an address after giving that forty eight
Speaker 2: hour ultimatum to the present mina, thank you so much
Speaker 2: for joining us, and thank you for all your contributions.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much,