1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,120 Speaker 1: All right, Well, it's that kind of useful, sort of 2 00:00:02,160 --> 00:00:06,119 Speaker 1: practical tip that is one of the reasons why community 3 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: WhatsApp groups can be really helpful and useful, But there 4 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: are also lots of reasons why they're problematic and irritating 5 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: and why so many of. 6 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 2: Us have them on im mute permanently. 7 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: Today, in an extended version of life Hacks, we are 8 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: putting the subject of our neighborhood WhatsApp groups under the spotlight, 9 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 1: talking about the dos and don'ts of using them, talking 10 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: about who is responsible for the content that gets shared 11 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: on them, talk about the legal ramifications when that contact 12 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: is problematic, and what you should do as a fellow 13 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: group member if somebody else is stepping out of line. 14 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: Before I introduce our guest, I would like to say 15 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:44,520 Speaker 1: I'd love to hear your experiences here. Are you part 16 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 1: of an active neighborhood WhatsApp group and what purpose do 17 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 1: you feel it serves in your life? Do you find 18 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: that members are generally respectful and helpful and share useful information? 19 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: Does it drive you around the bend because of all 20 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: the spam that gets shared there? Has it become a 21 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: venting space for personal vendettas? And irrational dislikes or is 22 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:08,679 Speaker 1: it genuinely a useful way of keeping a community informed 23 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 1: and bonded. What do you do if a neighbor posts 24 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: a racist comment or threatens vigilante justice in response to 25 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: an uptick and crime. These are some of the things 26 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: we want to grapple with today, so I'm interested to 27 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: hear your experiences. You can send a WhatsApp to our 28 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 1: community line if you like, oh seven two five six 29 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: seven one five six seven, talk to us about what works, 30 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: what doesn't work, what irritates you, what you consider essential 31 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: etiquette for these groups. And unfortunately the reason we're having 32 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: the conversation has fallen away because the guest who was 33 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:42,839 Speaker 1: meant to be joining us to talk to us about 34 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: some research that their particular security company had done, has 35 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: unfortunately canceled on us a second time. So I think 36 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: at this point we're just going to move on and 37 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: speak to the second guest we had lined up to 38 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 1: join the conversation, who brings a legal perspective to it, 39 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: and I know is very knowledgeable about the issues of 40 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: consequence and responsibility. Her name is an Sowet Marx. She 41 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: is Director and head of Litigation at the firm fundefin 42 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: dolath and Marx Incorporated and a swet. I'm really looking 43 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 1: forward to chatting to you this afternoon. 44 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 2: Thank you for joining. 45 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 3: Us, Hi, but Pa, thank you so much for having. 46 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:18,079 Speaker 2: It's a huge pleasure to have you with us. 47 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: What I'm going to do is just try and paraphrase 48 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 1: a little bit of the research here and there that 49 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: this company sent to us, and pick up on the 50 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 1: topics with you, if I may, and answet, I mean, 51 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 1: let's just start with the very basic concept here. It 52 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 1: can be incredibly helpful and incredibly convenient and useful to 53 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 1: have a group where anybody who lives in the neighborhood 54 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 1: can join. You can keep one another advised of a 55 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: community activities. You can say, hey, the farmer's market is 56 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: happening this Saturday, don't forget. They'll be there from ten o'clock. 57 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: You can say, hey, I'm new to the area. I'm 58 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 1: looking for a good dentist. Can someone recommend? There are 59 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 1: all kinds of ways in which these groups can work 60 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:55,679 Speaker 1: in a very positive way. 61 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 3: Not so, of course, I think if I need to 62 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 3: look at mine own experience, I mean, living in Johannesburg 63 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 3: and living in a lot of community schemes and complexes 64 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 3: in a state I've jumped from. You know, when we've 65 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 3: moved from community scheme to community scheme, you're always on 66 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:16,079 Speaker 3: some form of community scheme group so that everybody can 67 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 3: alert each other whenever something is happening in the complex 68 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 3: or in the state itself. And even when we moved 69 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 3: to a standalone home in a street where we're on 70 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 3: a current neighbor who to watch group, and also we 71 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 3: call it a community scheme group, but also it's actually 72 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 3: for the people that actually living and staying on standalone 73 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 3: street homes where it's basically I think eighty percent of 74 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 3: that purpose is for security reasons, need to understand if 75 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 3: there is a security breach or there's a problem, because 76 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 3: I mean we have our security company that's in the 77 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 3: area on that group as well. So yes, it's good, 78 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 3: it's great. I mean, I see I heard when you 79 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 3: said it just before the segment regarding you know, having 80 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 3: that group on muted. I sometimes have that viewed button 81 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 3: nearby if I see someone looking for a recommendation for 82 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 3: a plumber or for something like that, which is fantastic, 83 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 3: but at the end of that, for me, I like 84 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 3: the group. I like the purpose of the group is 85 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 3: serving due to security reasons. It's so easy for me 86 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 3: to know that as a group of eighty two hundred 87 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 3: people that if something is happening in my home or 88 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 3: at my area, I can call for help there my 89 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:26,239 Speaker 3: security companies on that group, and it's such an easy 90 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:28,840 Speaker 3: way to alert people of what's going around in or 91 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 3: you know, in the surrounding areas as well. I mean 92 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 3: we were dealing with you, you would have known in 93 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 3: headlines and I know this is not their topic, but 94 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 3: you would have known about the Bryanton House and Bryanton 95 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 3: Mansions that's been highjagged by property squatters. I mean there's 96 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 3: a living concern currently that's well away within the communities 97 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 3: regarding what if those squatters and those illegal tenants are 98 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 3: being evicted, where are they going? And those discussions are 99 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:59,039 Speaker 3: ongoing on our community scheme groups as well, because we 100 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 3: need to prepare, we need to know what's going on. 101 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 3: So I think it's fantastic. I think you need to 102 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 3: be part of a neighborhood WhatsApp group. I think you 103 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 3: need to be involved. I think you need to give 104 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 3: your contributions if you're part of a community you know, 105 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:14,919 Speaker 3: to keep it clean and to keep it organized and 106 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:17,840 Speaker 3: to keep it secure. But unfortunately, and I think this 107 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 3: is the whole purpose of the segment, is where that 108 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 3: goes pay shaped and where unfortunately the group is not 109 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 3: really used for the purpose that was established, and unfortunately 110 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 3: that taints the purpose of the group. But I think, 111 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 3: I really think an offenders because it's from my own 112 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 3: personal experience, the purpose is there, the goal is there, 113 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 3: and the goal is good, but the moment it's being 114 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 3: used for targeting someone, victimizing someone, leveling allegations and accusations 115 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 3: that shouldn't be leveled, unfortunately, then we're tainting the goal, 116 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 3: and then the purpose of that entire group is then 117 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 3: being you know, turned into a wrong direction. 118 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to just back up what you said 119 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 1: there again an emphasize how constructive these groups can be. 120 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:05,280 Speaker 1: And I'm going to share another example from my group, 121 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 1: if ire may from just this week on our local 122 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 1: group as I've just checked four hundred and forty members 123 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:13,640 Speaker 1: as we speak, and earlier this week, one particular street 124 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: in our neighborhood was affected by a burst pipe and 125 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: several people woke up to find that there was no 126 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: water in their homes, and one of those was the 127 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: local retirement home, and you know, the person posted, hey, 128 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 1: it's really difficult here. I've got two hundred and fifty 129 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,480 Speaker 1: elderly residents, including those in frail care, that we're trying 130 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 1: to care for. Please, if anybody knows what's happening and 131 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:34,479 Speaker 1: can update us on the repair work, let us know. 132 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: I heard last night that neighbors responded by going over 133 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 1: with five liter bottles of water and dropping them off 134 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: at that home, which is just you know, that's how 135 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,880 Speaker 1: you want it to work, that community spirit, that reaction 136 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,280 Speaker 1: of saying I can help here, somebody in need of 137 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 1: help that I can give, and putting the two together. 138 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: But let's talk about when it all goes wrong. And 139 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 1: there's several reasons we want to talk about today, and 140 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: some of them are to do with suspicions, suspicion of 141 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,600 Speaker 1: criminal activity and who gets flagged under that banner. We're 142 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: going to talk about political activity bleeding into these groups 143 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 1: as well. If there are other issues that you have experienced, 144 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: you are very very welcome to flag them with us 145 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: and send a WhatsApp to seven two five six seven 146 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: one five six seven. Already a couple of comments coming in. 147 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: Stevie says, I am part of a suburb social group 148 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: which is generally well behaved, but sometimes fights breakout, And 149 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,559 Speaker 1: the biggest problem is when people insist on putting forward 150 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: an opinion instead of just observing and being right. Is 151 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: there the problem when they won't let others have a 152 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: differing opinion. I am accused of over admining, says Stevie, 153 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: And I'm very well aware that I can be held 154 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: legally liable for what is shared there. So that's raising 155 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: a really really important point and maybe we should we 156 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: should talk about that first. And so in terms of 157 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: who is responsible for the content on a group, I 158 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: think a lot of people labor under the misperception that 159 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: maybe the admin has some responsibility, but otherwise it's not 160 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: their problem. 161 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 2: I'm just a member of the group. It's nothing to 162 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 2: do with me. 163 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: If somebody else posts something crazy or rude or insulting 164 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: or racist, that's not the case, is it. 165 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 3: No, So, Papa, just to also clarify, Yeah, I think 166 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 3: we're focusing on WhatsApp group admins, but let's just also 167 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 3: ring fences to say that this includes Facebook group admins, 168 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 3: et cetera. Because you don't see it only on WhatsApp. 169 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 3: I know, WhatsApp is more the platform of choice for 170 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 3: community you know groups, et cetera and neighborhood watch groups, speakers. 171 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 3: It's obviously the quicker way to reach people. But i 172 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 3: just want to put it out there because I've seen 173 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 3: the exact same questions and problems arising from Facebook groups. 174 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 3: So once when inter African law the responsibilities of a 175 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 3: group admin, albeit now WhatsApp or Facebook regarding you know, 176 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 3: defamatory content or content that can be in parallel to 177 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 3: criminal up contact conduct, et cetera. They're not set out 178 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 3: the responsibilities of the admins honors specifically set out and 179 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 3: it doesn't have as statute for WhatsApp itself, but liability 180 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 3: for WhatsApp admins or group adments in general can arise 181 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 3: through defamation law and principles of publication because the court 182 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 3: have increasedly increasedly recognized that admins can incur responsibility if 183 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 3: they allow certain materials of certain content to remain in 184 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 3: their group control. And the key legal principle that we 185 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:33,559 Speaker 3: always focus on, and I mean I'm getting at least 186 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:37,079 Speaker 3: on a monthly basis, I am getting people coming in 187 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:40,840 Speaker 3: from a community schemes group or a neighborhood watch group 188 00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 3: or a Facebook admin group saying can I be out 189 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 3: responsible there? So this is now you know this has 190 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 3: not happened on my group. Now, the key legal principle 191 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 3: is publication. In order for an element of defamation or 192 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 3: crimen in Europe to be an I'll explain the difference 193 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 3: between crimen and ura and defamation as well, but in 194 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 3: order for any liability or to arise, there must be 195 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 3: a publishment or a publication of that statement. Now, that 196 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 3: publication includes sending a message towards the group, repeating it 197 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:14,559 Speaker 3: or forwarding it onto a group, or allowing it to 198 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 3: remain visible even when you have control over it. And 199 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,559 Speaker 3: this is where the admin of the group picks into play. 200 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 3: So an admin may become liable if they for example, 201 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 3: there's they're basically three main criterias that we and in 202 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 3: case law that we see. The first criteria is if 203 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 3: the admin post the defamatory message themselves. This is the 204 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 3: clearest case of defamation that you're going to get. Your 205 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:46,439 Speaker 3: second case is where the admin knowingly allows defamatory content 206 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 3: to remain on the group, meaning the admin sitting on 207 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:53,439 Speaker 3: the whtapp group, they see this defamatory as a message 208 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 3: coming through, they have the power to remove it or 209 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 3: to discipline the member. I'll be it like a fine 210 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 3: that sometimes in or actually removing the member, and they 211 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 3: don't do anything about it, meaning they actually have the 212 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 3: publication continued on the group. And then the third criteria 213 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 3: is if this is unfortunately one that we're seeing arising 214 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 3: quite quickly because I'm hearing what this person is saying 215 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 3: about you know, she's overadmining it because she's also scared. 216 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 3: You are, You're very cautious of can I be actually 217 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 3: held liable? And the problem is you have admins. Now 218 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 3: you have these quite a number of people that's going 219 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 3: at each other's throat because everybody has a view and 220 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,760 Speaker 3: everybody has an opinion. But the third criteria for an 221 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 3: admin to be out liable is if they encourage or 222 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 3: endorse a statement, meaning now the statement or the opinion, 223 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 3: or the content or the material or the message goes 224 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 3: onto the group and that admin is now reacting with approval, 225 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 3: or they are saying, you know, they're adding commons to 226 00:11:55,160 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 3: support the allegation, or they are allowing repeated defamatory or 227 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,439 Speaker 3: messages to come onto the group. So yes, a group 228 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 3: admin can be held liable. But it's like I said, 229 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:10,199 Speaker 3: if they post the message themselves, if they have the 230 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 3: power to remove it or discipline the member that has 231 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 3: posted it, but then not doing anything about it, or 232 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 3: they encourage or endorse his statement by adding comments onto it, 233 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 3: or you know, supporting the allegation that was made. 234 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: What about the rest of the members of the group 235 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:28,679 Speaker 1: and swet I know, Emma Sadlier has told us previously 236 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 1: the concept of the chain of publication extends to the 237 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: other people who are on that group, even if they 238 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:36,959 Speaker 1: didn't post the comment, even if they're not the admin 239 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: of the group. But somebody, for example, posts something that 240 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 1: is outright blatantly racist and you don't disassociate yourself from 241 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: that content. 242 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 2: Is that a problem? 243 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 3: That is a big problem, Emma is I have, yeah, 244 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 3: the world of respect for her because at the end 245 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 3: of the day, we've learned a lot about what she 246 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 3: share to others and what she said to learn. You know, 247 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:01,319 Speaker 3: taught us in the other legal realm as well on this, 248 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:03,679 Speaker 3: and I know it isn't special as an expert on this. 249 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,679 Speaker 3: A group member can be out liable if they again 250 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 3: spot with the defamatory statement or the publication themselves if 251 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 3: they thought or repeat it, an endorse it, or adopt 252 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 3: the statement. And this has carriage to what you've just said. 253 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 3: If you are repeating what is said, or you're adding 254 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 3: comments to it, or you're not dissociating from it, you 255 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 3: can actually better held liable. I must add here that 256 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 3: there is case or what we've seen as a member 257 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 3: who merely reads the mad stage and does nothing about 258 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,319 Speaker 3: it is not generally considered to be the person who's 259 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 3: published it. But if you're supporting it, or you're reacting 260 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:46,119 Speaker 3: to it in a way that actually shows you're supporting 261 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:49,840 Speaker 3: this defamatory statement, you can definitely be held liable. So 262 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 3: it's so, it's so so critical, And this is just 263 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 3: what I wanted to add, because I'm also the first person. 264 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 3: I'm saying this tongue in the cheek. I'm the first 265 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 3: person who reaches for them button if I see someone 266 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 3: is asking for a recommendation, or someone is talking about 267 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 3: the farmer's market that I don't want to go to 268 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 3: over the weekend, and the moment I muted and let's 269 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 3: say four hours five hours past, and then suddenly I say, oh, 270 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 3: something was said this was not right. Hopefully the group 271 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 3: admins would have acted proactively and they would have taken 272 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 3: the step. So either remove the person removed the puss. 273 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 3: But if they did not and I'm reading it, I 274 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 3: can then you know, distance myself from it. But if 275 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 3: I'm not distancing myself and I'm endorsing it, or I'm 276 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 3: commenting to it like I said, in a way that 277 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 3: shows I'm supporting this statement, yes I can be held 278 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 3: liable even if I didn't post it, or even if 279 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 3: I'm not the one that's reading it as well. 280 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 1: We can to pause there, but come back to Aswer 281 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 1: at Marx, who we are really appreciating your time this afternoon. 282 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 1: She is the head of litigation and a director at 283 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: Fundefender Dollars and Marx Incorporated. Lots of your input coming 284 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 1: through a about how your particular community WhatsApp groups function 285 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: well and badly in some cases, and we will circle 286 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 1: back to some of those comments. 287 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 2: On kate talk dot com. 288 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: Done today on the app on DStv channel eight eight five. 289 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 2: And across the city on five six seven am. Join 290 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 2: the conversation. This is Kate Talk. 291 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 1: We continue in conversation with Ancoret, Marx director and head 292 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 1: of litigation that the legal firm Fundefinite, Dalath and Marx 293 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: incorporated the subject under discussion community WhatsApp groups, and we're 294 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: going to carry on talking about sort of doos and 295 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 1: don'ts and who's responsible for what is published there. But 296 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: also I want us to look at some of the 297 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 1: particularly problematic behavior that does tend to crop up before 298 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 1: we come back to answett a couple of your comments 299 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 1: and WhatsApps about the etiquette breaches that irritate you, your 300 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 1: pet peeves, all the things you like about your groups. 301 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 1: Lind says, we have a lovely WhatsApp group that is helpful, 302 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 1: Its security purpose is maintained gently. I do sense that 303 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: one does need a person on board who can diffuse 304 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: potential conflict without dismissing an issue in every group. Let's 305 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 1: see somebody else saying I'm on a Weinberg WhatsApp group 306 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: and it's good, but there are too many lazy people 307 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 1: who ask questions about topics that they could just ask 308 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: on the Google or interweb. It just causes excessive posting 309 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 1: and makes the group purpose fail. In essence, Tracy's peve 310 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: is people who are too lazy to scroll up or 311 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 1: use the search. 312 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 2: Function to find what it is they're looking for. 313 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: She says, the supplies to sports groups and class groups 314 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: as well as neighborhoods. Please search before you ask. Is 315 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: Tracy's comment. Yeah, I mean okay, So a couple of 316 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 1: things to say. The one helpful thing which several people 317 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 1: are telling me your neighborhood or street or class have done, 318 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 1: for example, is to separate out the important security issues 319 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 1: from the more social issues. So several people are telling 320 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 1: me that their particular neighborhood has two distinct groups. One 321 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 1: of them is for security reporting, and one of them 322 00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: is for the how do I find a good dentist, 323 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: When is the market, what day is garbage collection kind 324 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:06,959 Speaker 1: of question, et cetera. And that's what happens in our 325 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: part of the world, in Mobray. And I think it 326 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: is generally working better now that the two have been 327 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: separated out. 328 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 2: But here comes the problem, particularly with the security issues. 329 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: And let me share with you what Roger wrote, and 330 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: then I'll ask an swet to comment. Okay, two things 331 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 1: Roger's pet peeve is he says, many lonely people seem 332 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: to think a neighborhood crime WhatsApp group is okay for 333 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 1: sending birthday wishes or sharing verses with everyone. So that's 334 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 1: one of his pet peeves. But here's a more serious 335 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:41,200 Speaker 1: one that is often reflected. What Roger has experienced is 336 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:44,920 Speaker 1: that anyone of another race is automatically considered a suspect 337 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 1: of crime in the area. And we see terms being 338 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:50,199 Speaker 1: used like bravo referring to a black person. 339 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:52,719 Speaker 2: Colored and white people have similar designations. 340 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's bravo, Charlie whiskey on our group, Roger, I know, 341 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,440 Speaker 1: and on many others. An swet, Let's let's dive into 342 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 1: this one because this is where things often become problematic. 343 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: Now if we're talking about a security issue, and the 344 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 1: reason many of these groups exist is to be able 345 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 1: to flag potential security risks, to say, hey, there's been 346 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: a break in and please be on the lookout for 347 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:16,399 Speaker 1: a suspect, or there's been a series of crimes in 348 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: the street and everybody's noticed a particular vehicle was there 349 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 1: at the time, et cetera. You're there are lots of 350 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: problematic lines that get crossed here over to you, what 351 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:28,399 Speaker 1: would you like to say about particularly the use of 352 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:29,400 Speaker 1: the racial descriptors. 353 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 2: Roger was referring to there. 354 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a it's not even a gray arapper. But 355 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 3: the thing is what we and I just want to 356 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 3: add in here before I dive into the the detail. 357 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 3: But the thing is the asments of the group. They 358 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 3: just touch on that the absence of the group must 359 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 3: have a form of a disclaimer and rules on the 360 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 3: group that's either in the status of the group or 361 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 3: found in the group information or continuously posted on the 362 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 3: group for new members. I mean to get back to 363 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 3: you after I had to look because I didn't even 364 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,239 Speaker 3: ever thought about, you know, how many members we are, 365 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 3: but we are two hundred and eighty six people on 366 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 3: our WhatsApp group, that in our suburb, and that's actually 367 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 3: on our neighborhood watch group. And is it possible to 368 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:16,680 Speaker 3: control everybody? Do you want to control people? You don't 369 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 3: want to control people, and you don't want to be 370 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 3: the control fricks, and you don't want to always overadmin 371 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 3: like the other lady has also mentioned. But again, you 372 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 3: need to look and you need to be so careful 373 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,879 Speaker 3: and cautious about what can happen to years and asman groups. 374 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 3: So unfortunately, I think it's a very unfrankful job to 375 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,199 Speaker 3: be a group. Adman, I wouldn't want to do it 376 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:38,360 Speaker 3: as well. But so for me, the thing is the 377 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 3: group needs to have a form of a disclaim or 378 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 3: rule to say we are not addressing people as Bravos 379 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 3: or Charney's or whiskeys or whatnot. It is it's like 380 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 3: I said, it's for me, it's not even a gray area. 381 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 3: I think at the end of the day, we need 382 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:56,199 Speaker 3: to be like Rogers And I've said it's such a 383 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:02,160 Speaker 3: such it's such a strag environment where we're walking into 384 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 3: to say, okay, well there's a proper person and either 385 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 3: suspect for a robbery or a FIfF. I mean ah 386 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,959 Speaker 3: that immediately, if you are going to highlight a person 387 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 3: that's walking the street, whether it's a white person, whether 388 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 3: or it's an Indian person or whatever ethnicity, if you 389 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 3: think that person and maybe it's not someone you know 390 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:25,879 Speaker 3: in your you know that's living in your suburb. You 391 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,639 Speaker 3: don't know everybody. I don't know two hundred and the 392 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,400 Speaker 3: other two hundred and eighty four eighty five people that's 393 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 3: in my suburb. But now, Jess, because this person is 394 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 3: maybe looking in there, walking in the street, looking in 395 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:41,400 Speaker 3: your view, sketchy the moment you publish something to say 396 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 3: that this person looks like he's gonna be a thief 397 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 3: or he's gonna rob me. That moment you put something 398 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 3: like that, that is a false statement about another person 399 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 3: that can harm their reputation in the eyes of others. 400 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:57,919 Speaker 3: The moment you person onto the group, you're opening yourself 401 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 3: up for liability. Yeah, because I think that's important. What 402 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 3: we need to remember here. You might have a subjective 403 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:07,239 Speaker 3: view of someone. You might think that this person that's 404 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 3: actually my neighbor, I know him, but he's a fee 405 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 3: who he is a criminal because he looks like a criminal. 406 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 3: You might have a subjective view. But whenever we look 407 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 3: at this defamatory content and defamatory statements and thefamatory messages, 408 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 3: the moment you look at that, the courts look at 409 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 3: it from an objective point of view, that is to say, 410 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 3: or how has this statement that's now been posted all 411 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 3: this message has been posted on the group, How would 412 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:39,639 Speaker 3: a reasonable person or you're the reasonable group and the 413 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:43,439 Speaker 3: majority of the group think of that person of the 414 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 3: year in this statement. So we look at the large 415 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 3: objective taste to say no, no, this would have been 416 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:54,399 Speaker 3: what the majority of the people, and a reasonable person 417 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 3: would have fought from this person if a false statement 418 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 3: is being placed upon them, and that I think what 419 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 3: needs to be clarified here. You might have a subjective view, 420 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 3: You might think that this person is a fieft if 421 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 3: even if you put that subjective view onto a message 422 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 3: group or onto a WhatsApp group, the court is going 423 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 3: to look to see what would a normal or a 424 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 3: reason not normal reasonable person have thought after reading your 425 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 3: false statement that you placed. And I think that's very 426 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:25,919 Speaker 3: important because a lot of people come to us, a 427 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 3: lot of people that has actually posted the message or 428 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 3: the incorrect message or the false statement. A lot of 429 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 3: people that comes to us come to ours to say, well, 430 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 3: this message was posted about me. And the court doesn't 431 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 3: really care about your subjective view, and I don't care 432 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 3: about what you thought about the person by the time 433 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 3: you posted it. All they care about is what would 434 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 3: a reasonable person think about that person once I've read 435 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:56,160 Speaker 3: this false statement of yours. So it's very it's it's 436 00:22:56,200 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 3: so fragile, So it's so bad. It's so an environment 437 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 3: where we need to take caution whenever you want to 438 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 3: speak and think about oka, Well, here's a wise person 439 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 3: and he looks like a thief, so eas a thief, 440 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,199 Speaker 3: protection services need to go after him and need to 441 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 3: remove them from the environment. You're opening yourself up for 442 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 3: liability automatically because of that. 443 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: I mean, it's such a tricky space, unsweat. On the 444 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: one side, you've got profiling of people who have the 445 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 1: right to be on a public thoroughfare and walk through 446 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: your neighborhood, even if they don't live there. On the 447 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 1: other side, obviously, if somebody is engaging in obviously suspicious 448 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: behavior like trying to open car doors or peering over. 449 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 2: Gates into properties, etc. 450 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 1: That's maybe something you could argue there was good reason 451 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 1: to say this person is behaving suspiciously. But quite often 452 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:49,160 Speaker 1: we see this description of a suspicious BM or CW 453 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 1: or whoever it may be, walking down the street behaving suspiciously, 454 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 1: but there's no description of what they were doing that 455 00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 1: is regarded as suspicious. That's where it becomes particularly problematic. 456 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 2: Not so. 457 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,879 Speaker 3: I had to give you an example, Papa, and knowing 458 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 3: that you know this radio interview is coming up, but 459 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,640 Speaker 3: you're obviously more attentive to look around you as well 460 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 3: and to realize even these stuff more than what's coming 461 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 3: across our tables from a legal point of view and 462 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 3: from our point of view. I mean I looked at 463 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 3: our community Schemes group the other day and there was 464 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 3: a person walking in the street and it was two 465 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 3: o'clock in the morning, so it is a bit of 466 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:31,120 Speaker 3: a suspicious time. 467 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:31,479 Speaker 1: You know. 468 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 3: It becomes that thing about why are you in the 469 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 3: early mornings, you know, early hours of the morning, Why 470 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,199 Speaker 3: are you in the street? What are you doing? We 471 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:45,640 Speaker 3: don't recognize you. And the actual the security company actually 472 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 3: put it on the group to say suspicious person though investigating, 473 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,439 Speaker 3: and it was the same of a white van that 474 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,120 Speaker 3: was also roaming in the area at a very weird hour. 475 00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 3: I'm talking about three o'clock in the morning. So the 476 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 3: security company actually came on because they are monitoring the camera. 477 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 3: That we need to remember is they're not putting in 478 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 3: there to say suspicious white person walking in the street. 479 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 3: They're not labeling to say suspicious black person, suspicious you know, 480 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 3: Indian person. They're not labeling. And I think that's what 481 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 3: we need to strive towards, is not to make that 482 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 3: connectation because that's unfortunately where the problem comes in. There's 483 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 3: no problem if someone is walking at two am or 484 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 3: three am in the mornings. I would like people to 485 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 3: raise the you know, raise the awareness worth the security 486 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 3: company and say, we don't know this person, Why is 487 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,239 Speaker 3: this person walking at these hours of the morning, you know, 488 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 3: around in the streets. Please investigate I form my security 489 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:49,240 Speaker 3: and sofety, which we've established is I think the primary 490 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 3: role of these types of groups. I would like people 491 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,399 Speaker 3: to go and say, please just investigate, but there's no 492 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 3: need let's try and attach connectations to that people. There's 493 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:02,880 Speaker 3: no real reason for us to go and say suspicious 494 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 3: white person, suspicious black person, you know, Bravo and whatever. 495 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,199 Speaker 3: That is where it becomes a little bit like what 496 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,360 Speaker 3: are you trying to imply here? And that's where we're 497 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 3: looking at subjective views and needing to know that there's 498 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 3: a bigger objective state that's going to be placed to 499 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 3: see what was your actual intention. We're putting forward the message. 500 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 3: So I don't think the labeling is always necessary. I 501 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 3: don't think that descriptions is always necessary. You can say 502 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 3: there's a person in my street, it's two o'clock, and 503 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:38,040 Speaker 3: you please investigate towards your security company, and that should suffies. 504 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 1: And swert What about the circumstances after crime has demonstrably happened. 505 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 1: So if somebody has had a break in and the 506 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,119 Speaker 1: suspect is running away holding their laptop that has just 507 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,159 Speaker 1: been snatched off the table on the stoop where they 508 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,639 Speaker 1: were working and turned away for a second, do they 509 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:57,679 Speaker 1: then have the right to say to neighbors please be 510 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 1: on the lookout and give a full description of the 511 00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,920 Speaker 1: suspect that they know has committed a crime. 512 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 2: Or is even that potentially tricky. 513 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,440 Speaker 3: In so far as purpose I can actually prove what 514 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 3: they are alleging and inter for because I mean, I know, 515 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 3: for example, there was a minor theft the other day 516 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,679 Speaker 3: and someone came to me to say, well, you know, 517 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 3: it's the exact same question, but the camera actually caught 518 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:27,680 Speaker 3: a fief and I was a petty fest. But like 519 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,639 Speaker 3: the camera caught a fest and an image of the fest, 520 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,880 Speaker 3: so of the fief. So that's quite, you know, very straightforward. 521 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,200 Speaker 3: So ins forth as you can prove what you are alleging, 522 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,399 Speaker 3: you ought to be fine and the liability should not 523 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 3: be drawn to you. The reason why I'm saying this 524 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 3: is there's five elements for a defamation claim. The first 525 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,199 Speaker 3: one we know is publication meaning the statement must be 526 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 3: made public online on what the group, where third parties 527 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 3: can see it. The second element is defamation, meaning the 528 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 3: content must be false and it must injure the person's reputation. 529 00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,400 Speaker 3: The third element is reference, meaning the statement must clearly 530 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 3: identify the person as being the fame. The fourth element 531 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 3: we're looking at wrongfulness, meaning the publication must be unlawful. 532 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 3: And then the first element is intentional negligence, meaning the 533 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 3: publisher must have intended to harm or to act, you know, 534 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 3: to harm the harm the reputation, or have acted carelessly. Now, 535 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 3: when you look at, for example, a person, let's say 536 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:32,679 Speaker 3: it's a twenty three year old male, you won't know 537 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:34,640 Speaker 3: it's the twenty three year old my but you see 538 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 3: it's a young person he sold a lattop from a property, 539 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 3: is running away and the property owners camera's court that 540 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 3: you know he's a white mile. The moment that owner 541 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 3: goes onto a group to say, please be out of 542 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 3: the please be on the lookout. White young mile stole 543 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 3: my laptop. That's not false. True, it's what is saying 544 00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 3: is true and you can actually prove it from the camera. 545 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 3: For Jetty Hat. And the other thing is it's not 546 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 3: referencing a person specifically, and I think this must be 547 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 3: so so clearly made. You know, for the knowledge of 548 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 3: the and for the for the what we're trying to 549 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 3: when we inform the members of the public as well, 550 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 3: when you when you want to try to prove the 551 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 3: elements of deformation. The third element being referenced must be 552 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 3: the statement is clearly identifying a person we are not 553 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 3: able to identify, to say, Yanni stole my laptop, Please 554 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 3: be able to be on the lookout for Yanni, because 555 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 3: there's not a person that's being clearly referenced or clearly identified, 556 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 3: because you're missing the identity of that fee or of 557 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 3: that person. So what I've seen in some of our 558 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 3: experiences in case laws life, there is a fee will 559 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 3: very rarely come to you and toka, well, you defamed 560 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 3: me it. But other than that, there isn't the element 561 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,479 Speaker 3: of reference failed because you're not I'm not saying Yunny 562 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 3: stole my laptop. So please we are on the lookout 563 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 3: for Yunny because you're looking for the identity. Way, people 564 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 3: must be very careful to level false allegations, meaning they 565 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 3: don't really know if it's Yunny, but they're also not saying, 566 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 3: you know, they don't really know if it's yunny, and 567 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 3: they don't really know if it's queasy, but they're just 568 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 3: throwing it out there because they have their suspicions. You 569 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 3: cannot identify a person and you cannot reference a specific 570 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 3: person if you don't have to proof. I mean, we 571 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 3: have situations where people knew who the fees where they 572 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 3: broke into the house. They could see it. So there's 573 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 3: no you know, wrongfulness in that when you're really actually 574 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 3: trying to seek for a person and you have to prove. 575 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 3: But if you can prove it, and you know it's 576 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 3: not sol from me to say this person's stole from me, 577 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 3: you know, you don't have the identity, so you're not 578 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 3: referencing a specific person, and the intent of you is 579 00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 3: actually or your intention is actually to seek a person 580 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 3: and not to harm the reputation, but to seek them 581 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 3: for the criminal liability that will then be drawn to them. 582 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 3: They're are at least different elements here at play. 583 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 1: Okay, an sweat, you mentioned an important part of this conversation. 584 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 1: If there is footage or a camera shot from a 585 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: camera that has captured the suspect in action, Tina asking 586 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 1: are you allowed to share that footage? And I'm really 587 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 1: interested to hear your thoughts on this because I do 588 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 1: recall a training workshop with cops many years ago when 589 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: one of the police officers said to us, please refrain 590 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: from and discourage the practice of sharing criminal suspects photographs 591 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 1: and images on WhatsApp groups because it makes it very 592 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 1: difficult when it comes to an identity parade that they're 593 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,840 Speaker 1: ad cases thrown out because the suspects were identified and 594 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 1: were able to argue. Well, my photograph has been shared 595 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 1: all over Facebook and association with this allegation, so everybody 596 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: saw it. There your views on the sharing of images. 597 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 3: African law sharing criminal footage, whether or not CCTV assault 598 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 3: assault videos faced footage on a whatsap repe It's not 599 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 3: automatically illegal, but it can become unlawful depending on our 600 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 3: and wished. So it becomes a lot about and this 601 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 3: is what we remember. I remember in my article that 602 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 3: was published on Business Take as well. You know, we 603 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 3: are using and people are using WhatsApp content and WhatsApp 604 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 3: messages as admissible evidence, and we need to be so 605 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 3: careful not to create and to actually be the reason 606 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 3: that those what'sapp messages become inadmissible in court. So what's 607 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 3: generally a route is if you actually share footage for 608 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 3: crime prevention or for public interest. For example, sharing footage 609 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 3: maybe lawful when it's done for legitimate purposes. I'm now 610 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,959 Speaker 3: talking about warning a neighborhood about a recent burglary, or 611 00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 3: identifying a suspect after a crime, or assisting community policing 612 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 3: forums or security groups. The key factor is here is 613 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,959 Speaker 3: I'm doing this for the public interest. I'm doing this 614 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 3: as crime prevention, and there's no unnecessary humiliation. But the 615 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 3: potential problems work sharing crime footage is for example, again 616 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 3: when it comes to deformation and it's false, you are 617 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 3: sharing footage, but you are connecting someone or leveling an 618 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 3: allegation that's not correct. Do as a person so meaning 619 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,080 Speaker 3: you can't really see the faith of this person. But 620 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 3: if a person on the group, it looks like yummy, 621 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 3: so it must be yunny. The moment you are using 622 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:40,959 Speaker 3: criminal footage and it injures the reputation of someone because 623 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,239 Speaker 3: what you're stating is false, then you're not allowed to 624 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 3: use that because it draws the defamation and the civil 625 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 3: liability towards that person on an unlawful basis and the 626 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 3: publication is then false. So what it means is if 627 00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 3: the footage identify someone and people acqu is them of 628 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 3: a crime without actually having the proof, that can be defamatory. 629 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:09,240 Speaker 3: If the footage is shared just to humiliate someone because 630 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 3: the crime is a little bit unclear, then it can 631 00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 3: also impair in you know, the dignity of someone. And 632 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,880 Speaker 3: then we're looking at criminal jury, which is a criminal 633 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 3: liability that can be drawn to you. I think what 634 00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:24,840 Speaker 3: we also need to remember, what's also coming to my 635 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:28,960 Speaker 3: mind on some of the cases, is we need to 636 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 3: remember even criminals still have some privacy, right, So problems 637 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 3: may arise if the footage shows private spaces, children, you know, 638 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 3: victims of certain crimes, sensitive situations like we're looking at 639 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:48,759 Speaker 3: medical situations, nudity. Even if you share anything from a criminal, 640 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 3: even if we know this is a criminal, but you're 641 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:56,320 Speaker 3: sharing their victims information, or you're sharing their children, or 642 00:34:56,360 --> 00:35:00,960 Speaker 3: you're sharing sensitive situations regarding them, the that can infringe 643 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,880 Speaker 3: upon their privacy or their dignity, and dad can open 644 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,839 Speaker 3: up some liability towards you. But as long as it's 645 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,799 Speaker 3: done in my view, again, I'm going to fall back on. 646 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 3: I understand the purpose of these groups. I understand that 647 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 3: we need to we live in not we don't live 648 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:19,520 Speaker 3: in an ideal world. We live in in a world 649 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:21,959 Speaker 3: where we need to look out for each other. There's 650 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 3: that band and that connection and that safety and security 651 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 3: that these community groups create for each other. So if 652 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,840 Speaker 3: if there's a group on footage beings, you know, shared 653 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 3: on that group for public interest and all in order 654 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 3: to prevent crime and to keep life, so I'll be 655 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:40,920 Speaker 3: the first one is going to try to protect you 656 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 3: if someone comes after you. But it shouldn't be false. 657 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:48,239 Speaker 3: It can't be lebeling accuisations without any proof, and it 658 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:53,400 Speaker 3: shouldn't be unnecessary harm and unnecessary infringement or privacy or dignity. 659 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 3: Like I've said, children on you know, suspected criminals or 660 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:00,719 Speaker 3: sensitive situations or anything like that. 661 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 1: Okay, just again, for anybody who came in midway to 662 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,799 Speaker 1: this conversation, our guest is Answet Marx, director and head 663 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,920 Speaker 1: of Litigation at legal firm Fundefina Dolas and Marx Incorporated, 664 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,240 Speaker 1: talking about the ins and outs of neighborhood WhatsApp groups 665 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 1: and what can and cannot be shared and how to 666 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 1: manage problematic posts, et cetera very interesting perspective on political content. 667 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,640 Speaker 1: One of our listeners writing in to say, can you 668 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 1: please talk about political party activity on such groups, especially 669 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,239 Speaker 1: with an election looming. I'm a co administrator of our 670 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,879 Speaker 1: local group and recently received several messages from members who 671 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,719 Speaker 1: had been approached by political parties seeking their election support, 672 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:44,160 Speaker 1: apparently having harvested their names and numbers from our community group. 673 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,880 Speaker 1: Now answet would that be a breach of POPPY, for example, 674 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 1: or is it just simply poor ethics. 675 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:54,400 Speaker 3: It's very poor, but it's also a breach of POPPY, 676 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:58,120 Speaker 3: and I think it's a trough callers. Yeah, I'm a 677 00:36:58,160 --> 00:36:59,800 Speaker 3: fan for a true caller, because if you're going to 678 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:03,000 Speaker 3: call me from a spam more or political party, you 679 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 3: won't be I won't be entertaining you. But unfortunately you 680 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:10,320 Speaker 3: are not allowed to share contact details, not even admins. 681 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 3: Nobody is allowed to share the contact details of anybody 682 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 3: else to a political party or anything like that. That 683 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 3: is definitely a breach of POPPY. 684 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:21,719 Speaker 1: Can I add a complicated factor here? What if the 685 00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 1: political party representative is part of your group? 686 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,719 Speaker 2: So let's put it another way. 687 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,479 Speaker 1: I'm a member of my community group, and my name 688 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:31,799 Speaker 1: and phone number are visible to every member of that 689 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 1: group as a result, and every now and then I 690 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 1: have people contacting me privately after hours, for example, saying, oh, 691 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:40,840 Speaker 1: I need your help, can CAPE talk investigate this? Et cetera, 692 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:43,319 Speaker 1: And I always just say to them, now, you know, 693 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 1: there's a publicly available work email address. I share it 694 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 1: about seven or eight times every single day. Please use that, 695 00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:53,839 Speaker 1: and you know it's it's usually fine. Sometimes people get 696 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:57,040 Speaker 1: very intrusive into private time, et cetera. So similarly, if 697 00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,319 Speaker 1: a political you know, say the local council is a 698 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,799 Speaker 1: member of the group and is able to harvest everybody's details, 699 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:07,200 Speaker 1: we've voluntarily joined this group knowing that our details will 700 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,279 Speaker 1: be visible. Do we have any right to an expectation 701 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:11,320 Speaker 1: of privacy? 702 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,840 Speaker 3: I think you are one hundred percent correct in channeling 703 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,959 Speaker 3: it through the correct you know, methods and measurements. There's 704 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,239 Speaker 3: no reason why they should be contacting you on your 705 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,439 Speaker 3: private number. I mean, being an attorney, I am well 706 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 3: aware that, you know, if the more people realize I'm 707 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,520 Speaker 3: an attorney, you know, it's good. I mean it's good 708 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:34,719 Speaker 3: for me, and it's good for that exposure. That word 709 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 3: of mouth. But I also don't want, respectfully, people to 710 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,120 Speaker 3: be you know, drawing my number and my details from 711 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 3: the group just to have me on speed dollar at 712 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:47,799 Speaker 3: eleven or twelve once you know, some some bail application 713 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,239 Speaker 3: for drunk driving is coming up. Yeah, So I think 714 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,840 Speaker 3: also there's definitely that that measure, and I mean with 715 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,000 Speaker 3: me is actually different in the sense of my private 716 00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,720 Speaker 3: number is also my work number, because that's the quickest 717 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:01,920 Speaker 3: and most efficient white people will get hold of me. 718 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,240 Speaker 3: But I think from your point of view, you're absolutely 719 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:09,240 Speaker 3: correct that if people are approaching you, either for your 720 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 3: work or your political thing, that's every person's discretion. But 721 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,200 Speaker 3: it's your right and it's your discretion to tell that 722 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,719 Speaker 3: person listen, this is the forum or this is the 723 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 3: channel that you're going to reach me work for this 724 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 3: specific inquiry, and it's obviously your discretion to also decline 725 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,400 Speaker 3: if a political person or someone is reaching out to you. 726 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:31,960 Speaker 3: I think if I had my counselor on the group 727 00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:34,279 Speaker 3: and someone is reaching out to me, I would very 728 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:36,600 Speaker 3: much like to know what is going to be done 729 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,600 Speaker 3: about the potholes and the water crisis in Johannesburg. So 730 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,319 Speaker 3: I don't think they're going to actually contact me, because yeah, 731 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 3: that will also be the last thumb that will probably 732 00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:47,000 Speaker 3: contact me. But at the end of the time, at 733 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,880 Speaker 3: the end of the day, it's your discretion how to 734 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:52,960 Speaker 3: handle that. If someone you know is on the group, 735 00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,000 Speaker 3: it's not a breach of Poppy for them to draw 736 00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,880 Speaker 3: your numbers there and use it themselves. They're not allowed 737 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,520 Speaker 3: to distribute it, and they're not allowed to give it 738 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,680 Speaker 3: to any other political party or whoever they want to. 739 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,560 Speaker 3: But if they want to use it themselves and they've 740 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,759 Speaker 3: drawn it from the public group, that this say is 741 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,640 Speaker 3: not a breach of Poppy. It's just for your discretion. 742 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,239 Speaker 3: It's it's in your hands how you want to control that. 743 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,440 Speaker 3: You say, no contact me through these lines, or contact 744 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:22,680 Speaker 3: me through these lines. But it's not going to be, 745 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,400 Speaker 3: you know, just a free for all, be able to 746 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,239 Speaker 3: contact anybody and at any time. Unfortunately. 747 00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:30,080 Speaker 2: Okay, thanks for clarifying that. 748 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:32,440 Speaker 1: I'm going to just squeeze in one last message with 749 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:35,239 Speaker 1: a plea from someone describing themselves as a student with 750 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,960 Speaker 1: limited data. On a point of etiquette, please can people 751 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 1: think twice before posting data heavy memes on their WhatsApp groups? 752 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,840 Speaker 1: And that's a very very fair point. Think before you post, 753 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,680 Speaker 1: what time you're posting, how big the file is, how 754 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:52,400 Speaker 1: it's going to impact other people's data receiving that post. 755 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,240 Speaker 1: I think it's a point well made. Thank you, said student, 756 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:57,439 Speaker 1: and so at Marks we have to wrap there. Thank 757 00:40:57,480 --> 00:40:59,359 Speaker 1: you so much for giving us such a big chunk 758 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 1: of your time this afternoon to help us understand the 759 00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:05,360 Speaker 1: legal framework for how we engage with these groups. 760 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:06,760 Speaker 2: It's been incredibly helpful. 761 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,080 Speaker 3: Perfect but Ba, thank you so much for having me. 762 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:12,759 Speaker 3: And if there's anybody that needs any help, they're more 763 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:16,479 Speaker 3: than welcome to just look me up at VDMOD Law. 764 00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:20,000 Speaker 3: That's our website and I'll address any concerns or questions 765 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:21,359 Speaker 3: that they might have there as well. 766 00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,680 Speaker 1: And sweat Marks VDM Law is the website, and please 767 00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:27,799 Speaker 1: use that platform, not her private number of the onesapp group. 768 00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:30,400 Speaker 2: We will leave it there. Thanks everybody for your engagement.