1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: The dialogue with Clement Man Taylor. It's not just another 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:05,480 Speaker 1: roundtable discussion. 3 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:06,560 Speaker 2: Let's walk the. 4 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:09,120 Speaker 3: Talk on seven o two. 5 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:11,879 Speaker 1: So on our Thursday dialogue this morning, we're going to 6 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:14,920 Speaker 1: be looking at two different stories. So we're going to 7 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: start with the conversation about institutional overreach in law enforcement 8 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 1: because there seems to be some concern that this could 9 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: be the case. I'll tell you more about this in 10 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: a moment, and then we'll also look into the story 11 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 1: we discussed on the seven or two open line this 12 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:38,199 Speaker 1: morning around the Social Development Minister. I see some of 13 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 1: you of us that we go deeper into that. So 14 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: what I'm going to do is bring in Rebecca Davis, 15 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: who is a journalist that investigated that story. Some of 16 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: you who missed our conversation with the ANC Women's League, 17 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: I will bring back that conversation. So we'll replay that 18 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 1: interview we did with the ANC Women's League Secretary General, 19 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: and I'll bring in Parliament as well to come and 20 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 1: shure to us about this particular issue. What are the 21 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 1: likely consequences for Minister cisy do Lasher and I think 22 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: this is the only way, unfortunately in this country, that 23 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: we end up seeing accountabilities when you constantly follow up. 24 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: It's when you, as a South African are also making 25 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: noise about these issues, because then for some reason, that's 26 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 1: when the President feels the need to act, when you 27 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,680 Speaker 1: are outraged, when you are putting the pressure. So that's 28 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: exactly what we're going to do. We're going to discuss 29 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: what happened and what the consequences are, and we're going 30 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:38,759 Speaker 1: to stay on that story because if a minister lies 31 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 1: to Parliament and this is not even the first time 32 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: that Minister do Lasher seems to tell Parliament what is 33 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 1: not even true, what are the consequences for that? That 34 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: those cannot be the kind of leaders that we have. 35 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: So that conversation will will come up just after eleven thirty. 36 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 1: But right now I want us to talk about the 37 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: National Prosecute Authorities Investigating Directorate against Corruption IDEC, because they're 38 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:11,079 Speaker 1: pushing back strongly against claims that it's targeting senior police officials. 39 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 1: And you'll remember that this of course follows the arrest 40 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:20,239 Speaker 1: of the twelve senior SAPs officers linked to that controversial 41 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: three hundred and sixty million rand health services tender that 42 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: is awarded to a company associated with businessmen vis muzikt Matlala. 43 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:32,960 Speaker 1: So these officers are now facing serious charges including fraud, corruption, 44 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: money laundering, and while many have been granted bail, the 45 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 1: case continues to raise major questions about accountability at the 46 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 1: highest levels of policing. In fact, Police Commissioner Fanima Samola, 47 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: that's our National police commissioner, he has also been someone 48 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: to appear in court. And IDAC maintains that these arrests 49 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 1: were conducted by the book, pointing out that the investigation 50 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: was actually triggered internally by the escas's own Risk Ordit 51 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: unit back in twenty twenty four. But then their growing 52 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: calls and concerns about what this case reveals. Some people 53 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: are warning that this may point to a deeper systematic 54 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: weakness within the SAPs, particularly in procurement processes, and others 55 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: are raising questions about whether internal controls within the SAPs 56 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: are strong enough to prevent large scale corruption in the 57 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: first place. So is this a sign that accountability is 58 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: finally catching up with those in power? 59 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 3: Oh? 60 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: Does it expose a much bigger problem within the system itself. 61 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: I'd like you to share your thoughts on OH one 62 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 1: one eight eight, three oh seven, oh two. What'sapps on 63 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 1: seven two seven oh two one seven two. We've got 64 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: Double Jjras who is the founder and chairperson of Public 65 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: Interests South Africa joining us for this. Chad, thank you 66 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: so much for making time for us. 67 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 4: Good money, good money, Jam, and thank you so much 68 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 4: for heaven. 69 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: We also have Bethuel Gunner, who is the president of 70 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: the Independent Policing Union of South Africa. Bethuel, thank you 71 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 1: for also joining the conversation. 72 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 3: Good morning, Good morning, Clement, and good morning to your listeners. 73 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:19,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we were meant to be joined by the NPA, 74 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,840 Speaker 1: but I know there was something urgent that came up 75 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: an emergency this morning, so they're unable to join us. 76 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: I'll start with you, Double holl I read your statement 77 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:36,039 Speaker 1: about the concerns you have as Public Interest South Africa. 78 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: Can you just allay that to the listeners. What exactly 79 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: are you concerned about in as far as the conduct 80 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: of IDEC is concerned. 81 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you for that question. Glement. As an outset, 82 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 4: let me make something very clear. A comfortability must not 83 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 4: have eyes in other ways, you must go wherever the 84 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 4: evidence leads, irrespective of rank or position of authority in 85 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 4: public organizations and even private as well. With that said, 86 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 4: we are also commanding the Independent Directory against Corruption for 87 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 4: the action that is taken when it was when matters 88 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 4: were referred to had Imanu to them by the by 89 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 4: the subs officials who kicked up malpiciens as it is 90 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 4: reported this meta days back to ten tiny four when 91 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 4: they were first allected of this. With that said, we 92 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:38,119 Speaker 4: also say let us also look at the environment within 93 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:42,039 Speaker 4: which this is happening and what are the questions that 94 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,599 Speaker 4: need to be answered? The firstly, who are the players 95 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 4: in this alleged matter allied to a corruption, fraud and whatever. 96 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 4: Here we've got officials who seen the GEC VAC and 97 00:05:54,960 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 4: outside of those committees who are in in colluding with 98 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 4: medicare twenty four in regards to this called COC contract. 99 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 4: And if you look at it all when mets, when 100 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 4: metals pertaining to do, ask yourself who are the principal actors? 101 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 4: And here you're took yourself implicated. Actually the chairperson of 102 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 4: the VAC or if members of the b C who 103 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 4: may have overlooked critical matter or failed to do delisions 104 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 4: on whatever it is alleged to have been improper with 105 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 4: regards to submissions by Medicare or the application for the 106 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 4: tender by Medicare? Can that extend? You ask who are 107 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:41,039 Speaker 4: those individuals and are they also on the on the 108 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 4: on on on the on the on on the on 109 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:47,520 Speaker 4: the hook for accountability? So you ask yourself, the chair 110 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 4: has not the b AC. We all know that's Divisional 111 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 4: Commissioner for Supply Chain Management, that this return a general fund. 112 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 4: You're not on the accused and you don't say that 113 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 4: that's because why not other people are not acted? It 114 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 4: means the other shooting face the means we commend appears 115 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 4: to do foot in that. But of critical importance, what 116 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 4: it is that led and I think the elephant in 117 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 4: the in the room must must be approd must be 118 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 4: must be attended to. What is it that made General 119 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 4: Macemola the SERBS uh National Commissioner to be induided to 120 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 4: ask yourself their allegations or names that the the hawks 121 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 4: or either sorry uh uh mister publisher, I think that's 122 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 4: the name from I did write to to SERBS alerting 123 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 4: them of a possible non compliance or issues relating to 124 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 4: Medicaid twenty four and what did what did the commissioner do? 125 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 4: The commissioner took that information he acted on it. He 126 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 4: took it to the the the acting Divisional Commissioner for 127 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 4: Supply at the time. That does Major General Hankings. I 128 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 4: believe who then did their work. Is a competent authority 129 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 4: empowered to do that, did their work and they came 130 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 4: back to them, to the General Macemola and said we 131 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 4: don't find anything at the true or not. That is 132 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 4: what he was working on. And if you've got delegated 133 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 4: authority that you invested in one of your officiers, you 134 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 4: do trust what they do. They come back to you 135 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 4: as a report because as a commissioner you, as an 136 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 4: accounting officer, we did not expect accounting officers to be 137 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 4: doing investigation as to whether the SAT experience is fine 138 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,199 Speaker 4: or whatever. You delegate that to others which they came 139 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 4: with the with the report and based on that. That 140 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 4: is when Commissioner Macemola. We believe, as it was testimony 141 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 4: delivered before Parliament Dual Committee, that he was then informed 142 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 4: that policy clear. That's how that's what he acted on. 143 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 4: And you ask yourself then if that's the case, there 144 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 4: is non negally never mind costigence. And by the way, 145 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 4: I'm not I don't not hold anybody for commissioners, commission 146 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 4: or any of the accused in this matter. Let's let 147 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 4: let's let where people get excited that we are here 148 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 4: out there to defend. 149 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 1: Can I ask though double and I hear that here's 150 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: a challenge for me just listening to how you explaining it. 151 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: We don't know what evidence Aadac has against the National 152 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: Police Commissioner, right you you've explained what the National Police 153 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: Commissioner has said when he's appeared even before the ad 154 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: Holt Committee. You don't know what Isaac has. They could 155 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 1: very much have something quite significant that proves to them 156 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: that the National Police Commissioner failed to act and as 157 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: a result, then that gross negligent that you may not 158 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: be aware of. My concern is when a senior officer 159 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 1: like this gets taken on in you know, Isadac says 160 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,199 Speaker 1: he has to appear in court because they believe, if 161 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:04,559 Speaker 1: beyond reasonable doubt, that they've got a strong case against him. 162 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: And then we see organizations that seem to be defending 163 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: the National Police Commissioner before we even see what the 164 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:14,680 Speaker 1: charges are and what evidence Isadac has. Then it comes 165 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:18,679 Speaker 1: across as then there's no equality before the law. So 166 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 1: don't you think that at the very least, we need 167 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: to see the case that Isadac has and if it 168 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 1: turns out that Isaac Isaac doesn't have a strong case, 169 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: and then that's when you can start pointing fingers and 170 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: say you are wrong and there must be accountability for 171 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: you for bringing in this man in court when you 172 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 1: don't have enough evidence that suggests gross netligence. 173 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 4: You are absolutely correct, meant none of us had sight 174 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 4: of the charge sheet or you know, the docket, and 175 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 4: therefore we are all, you know, commenting in the realms 176 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 4: of speculation, and we might be well be wrong. It 177 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 4: might be well be that Isaacs got such a solid 178 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:03,959 Speaker 4: case that we will be behind idea and say go 179 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 4: ahead and charge. But here we are we've got reason 180 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 4: to also, thisir comes back because you are dealing here 181 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 4: with the head of AADAC who has gone on record, 182 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:19,319 Speaker 4: as it has been seculated, having said we must dress 183 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 4: to the nines, go to court even if we don't 184 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 4: have anything there against the state capture accused, just to 185 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 4: show and tell and pretend like we've got a case 186 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 4: when we don't. In the process wasting resources making cases 187 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,199 Speaker 4: that she knows that will fall and in the end, 188 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,560 Speaker 4: we also will be on the hook as textpayers if 189 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 4: people claim against or lodge civil claims against the state 190 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 4: or the MPAs is the case here, or the police. 191 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 4: So we must also be We are entitled to questions, 192 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 4: do you are you just dressed on your lines, advocate Johnson, 193 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 4: as you want to make your your own players believe 194 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 4: and go to count without it as it is already 195 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 4: we hear that even pre pre pre pre arrest measures 196 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 4: were actually open flouted. In otherwise, no witness statements are 197 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 4: taken or allegedly we are again we know we must 198 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 4: be very careful. We will believe that the proper procedures 199 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 4: were not followed before that these arrests were made. But 200 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:25,439 Speaker 4: that is because we have. We cannot ignore the concerns 201 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 4: that are out there just because we haven't seen the 202 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 4: church sheet, and just because and when the church set 203 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 4: comes and engaged, we believe that all that accused for 204 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 4: something to answer. We are fully behind ide and we 205 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,719 Speaker 4: will make sure that justice is found and and accountabilities 206 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:44,319 Speaker 4: is pursued. That's that's that's the big of our commentary. 207 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 4: And we cannot keep quiet just because we have we've 208 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 4: seen the church sheet with what we're faced with because 209 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 4: we don't know that from what is available to us, 210 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 4: we are entitled to make commentary. 211 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, got you Doaboro. Let me bring in bestwell going 212 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:04,679 Speaker 1: a president of the Independent Policing Union of South Africa. Well, 213 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 1: what are your thoughts on what we have seen players 214 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 1: around these senior officers and now the National Police Commissioner 215 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 1: Funny mar Samola? Are you at all concerned as as 216 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 1: a union about what really appears to be factions within 217 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:22,199 Speaker 1: the s. 218 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:22,679 Speaker 4: A p S. 219 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 3: Good morning again to you jament as the Independent Policing 220 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 3: Union of South Africa. Yeah, we are very much concerned 221 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 3: about what has been happening. We've seen the sub fraternity. 222 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 4: But then there was a. 223 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:47,040 Speaker 3: Suspicion or a question of whether the arrest of the 224 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:55,559 Speaker 3: senior police officers by an institutional overreach or are they 225 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 3: were still are they still within their their framework of 226 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 3: week What we have seen as imposed these arrests are 227 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 3: not about SERBS overreaching its mandate, but about the leaders 228 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:17,680 Speaker 3: within SERBS abusing their institutional powers for their own personal gain. 229 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 3: This is something that indicates a collapse of governance and 230 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 3: and overside mechanism within SERBS. So we're saying these arrests 231 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 3: are just about SAPs collapsing from we see because what 232 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 3: we're witnessing right now is not just a corruption emagins, 233 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 3: it is the emplosion of SAPs leadership itself. Most challenge 234 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 3: now with the National Commissioner beings are mound to Appian court. 235 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 3: It indicates that the crisis has reached the very top 236 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 3: of the of the policy in a hierarchy. 237 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 2: And for now to be prettymature to to comment on 238 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 2: on on on on the summons to to the National Commissioner, 239 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 2: because we really don't know what it's inside the investigation 240 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 2: that they have within our eidach, but we we are 241 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 2: aware of these arrest They pointed to a systematical art, 242 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 2: not just an isolated misconduct. They expose institutional fragility as 243 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 2: the worlds of command structure is compromised by corruption, as 244 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 2: it has been witnessed through our adult committees and the 245 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:35,960 Speaker 2: Malanga Commission. 246 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: Got you well, Bethel, thank you so much for that double. 247 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: I've got a question here from a listener who asks 248 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: about which is in fact an issue that I had 249 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 1: raised last week when we found out the National Police 250 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: Commissioner is now someone to appear in court. The issue 251 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: of the fifty million Rand that was paid to kat 252 00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 1: Matala's company as a result of the delay in acting. 253 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: And yes, you've indicated already that Look, the National Police 254 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 1: Commissioner did ask one of the accounting officers, hey, this 255 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: is a consent that's been raised by IDEK, and the 256 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: accounting officer said, well, nothing to worry about here. But 257 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: then there was an internal audit report that then later 258 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 1: came out that said there's something wrong here, and it 259 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: took the National Police Commission if I'm not mistaken about, 260 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: over fifty days or so to act and as a 261 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: result of that delay, fifty million ran then gets paid 262 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: to keet Matlala's company, who takes accountability for that. Because 263 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 1: I think what we see about these loopholes and gaps 264 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 1: in government is comrades and even some senior officials. And 265 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 1: I'm not suggesting this was the case with the National 266 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: Police Commissioner, is they use those loopholes in government to 267 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: actually advance even tenders that go to their preferred people, 268 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:00,560 Speaker 1: and then they know they can come I can say, 269 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: well that's how it works in government. What was I 270 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 1: supposed to do? 271 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, Lament and the listener who sent through 272 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 4: that question. That's a very valid question which Commissioner Macemela 273 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 4: has to answer to you. But let us also take 274 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,040 Speaker 4: into consideration and I want to stress again and I 275 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 4: do not hold a brief for anybody that's also stress aiting. 276 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 4: Very recently in the same ADRO Committee meeting, we also 277 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:33,120 Speaker 4: learned from the former Ecty General Commissionnational Commissioner General Pasani 278 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 4: when he was falsely being accused of having being of 279 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 4: having been responsible for the thirty million odds that was 280 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 4: that Subs was made to prey after one of the 281 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 4: contenders in or competitors in one of the tenders. Substenders 282 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 4: took Subs to court for not having awarded or for 283 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 4: re singing their their contracts, something along those you know 284 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 4: quite a while back, and you ask yourself would and 285 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:08,239 Speaker 4: again I don't want to. I don't want to. I 286 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 4: cannot read Commissioner Simular's mind. I don't know what the 287 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,159 Speaker 4: state of mind at the time, whould it have played 288 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 4: in his mind that I must be careful not to 289 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 4: terminate this. Actually, I'm satisfied that indeed we we we've 290 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 4: got a leg to stand on because we cannot name 291 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 4: non compliant, no non performance as affected because non performance 292 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 4: can be remedied to give your supplier fourteen days or 293 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 4: whatever it is that a contrasticulates to remedy the non 294 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,359 Speaker 4: performance that you're raising. It could be other things. So 295 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 4: it takes time to actually in dig in and actually 296 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 4: come up that. Indeed, now we've got costs to be 297 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:46,399 Speaker 4: able to do that. In the meantime, there is money 298 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 4: that is now being paid because delivery has been has 299 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 4: been confirmed and signed off. And even if it was 300 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 4: a million or ten rants that was being paid out, 301 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 4: it is money that or not you have been plaid 302 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 4: out or that we regrettable that was credibly paid out 303 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 4: and which we shouldn't have been if in need it 304 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:08,439 Speaker 4: forms all the contact was contaminated or suppose I worded unlawfully, 305 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 4: but you cannot say those metals. All those considerations didn't 306 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,679 Speaker 4: play in the commissioner's mind that if I termilate, what 307 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:20,880 Speaker 4: is the best, what is the what is the worst 308 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:22,920 Speaker 4: of the two? Evil? To make sure that I've got 309 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 4: my dugs in a row before I terimilate, lest I 310 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 4: find myself in a similar situation where Serbs was on 311 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 4: the hook for thirty million or for attender at the 312 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 4: terminute prematurely. And again I'm not speaking for the commissioner. 313 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 4: We as the test payers, as citizens of these countries 314 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 4: of this country, we are entitled to answers as to 315 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:44,080 Speaker 4: why is it that fifty million was paid because of 316 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 4: what seemed to be a delay and again the same 317 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 4: reason that we use. We let us not prejudge until 318 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 4: you hear from Masemola himself. 319 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:57,120 Speaker 1: What is the best thing you think is for an 320 00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 1: accounting officer like him to do in a case where 321 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:04,719 Speaker 1: there are questions around a particular tender. So this is 322 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 1: not just a tender given to someone who is unknown. 323 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 1: IDAC had already told him this man is implicated in 324 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:18,439 Speaker 1: the Tembisa corruption scandal. Beware, so by the time this 325 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:22,479 Speaker 1: audit report comes internally in the SAPs and says something 326 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 1: is wrong here, he already has information about who this 327 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: man is. I mean, that would be irresponsible for a 328 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,880 Speaker 1: police commissioner not to do their own work. Once they 329 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:37,359 Speaker 1: get this information from IDAC, it will be responsible not 330 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:39,920 Speaker 1: to actually find out actually who is this man? This 331 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: is three hundred and sixty million ran So I guess 332 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 1: my question is what's best to do. I would prefer 333 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:48,679 Speaker 1: a National Police Commissioner to pause and say, okay, I 334 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: am going to pause everything issue an instruction if it 335 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: means we are possibly as the SAP is going to 336 00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 1: be held accountable for being extra cautious to avoid money 337 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: leaving here that could go to someone who's corrupt. I 338 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 1: would rather that than actually go, oh, I'm scared to 339 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:11,639 Speaker 1: act now, because what if this person is going to 340 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: take us to court. I mean, you're acting now because 341 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,959 Speaker 1: you're trying to prevent money moving to someone who may 342 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: be corrupt. I would rather that and you get taken 343 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: to court for protecting the interests of the SAPs. Then 344 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: you just allowing things to continue while you try get 345 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 1: your ducks in a row. Because in that process, you 346 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 1: are allowing money to move. And we know how Kate 347 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: Matala moves. He probably knew that. Okay, there's something going 348 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: to happen here. People are gonna stop this contract. I 349 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: need to check to these guys release that money so 350 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,159 Speaker 1: that by the time the National Police Commissioner acts, at 351 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: least there's moneys that have already left the SAPs. So 352 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:52,400 Speaker 1: what's the best thing to do as an accounting officer? 353 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 4: I guess again commend then that is a very good question. 354 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 4: General Mascemolo will be a better place to answer for himself. 355 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 4: Suffice to say, from what you've also picked up amongst 356 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 4: things that allegedly were made or put to him, was 357 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:11,159 Speaker 4: that the company was also blacklisted if you project had it. 358 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 4: But if you go to the Restricted Tender Suppliers and 359 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 4: Default Database of National Terrorist Treasury, mad KRE twenty four 360 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 4: is not listed, as is many other companies who may 361 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 4: need to be have been listed, including so this company, 362 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,440 Speaker 4: I believe, But you ask yourself if indeed he took 363 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:33,199 Speaker 4: that information went to the National Treasures RASTD but the 364 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 4: database and do a Casey check and find that the 365 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 4: company is not that that allegation doesn't stand. I'm just 366 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,159 Speaker 4: saying that maybe they did, maybe they didn't. I'm just 367 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:43,879 Speaker 4: I'm just saying, but what we know now is that 368 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,639 Speaker 4: made K twenty four was not on the on the 369 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:52,440 Speaker 4: on the ARRESSTD supply database, you know, so a National 370 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 4: Treasury database. So and you ask yourself, how do you 371 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 4: really I can can can be antimonious about say well, 372 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,359 Speaker 4: he could have waited, he should have waited, but you 373 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 4: just don't know what the calculations that are face his 374 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:10,439 Speaker 4: face to it, many apart, right, yes, would all be 375 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 4: HIPing places and say yeah, thank you for stopping the 376 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 4: fifty million runs and that was ultimately paid to Kate Metal, 377 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 4: whom we all desperately hate, would love to hate. Is 378 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:23,679 Speaker 4: the villain in there in this whole thing, But we 379 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 4: just don't know at the time. We now know what 380 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 4: we know about medicare to be for in Kate Matlala 381 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 4: after most of what we had from a Lander Commission 382 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 4: and the the other Parliamentary committee in the proceedings, but 383 00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 4: at the time very little they have known except for 384 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 4: those who are investigating. He'll talk about investigative journalists and 385 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,879 Speaker 4: talk about the Hawks or any other people from from 386 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 4: from idea who are involved in that, but we are 387 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 4: none otherwise, I yes, you know, but what did he 388 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 4: do with the information that he has and does the 389 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 4: charge amount to negligence never mind gross negligence on his 390 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 4: base and if anything was there also meaning ever with 391 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 4: legal intent to to I mean the criminal intent on 392 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 4: the part of uh the commissioner to actually aid in 393 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 4: a bed my Blather's company or medic care for that 394 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 4: for that matter. So we also have to be very 395 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 4: careful because some of these elements before you take to 396 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:22,879 Speaker 4: contract when some of the cases get thrown out because 397 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 4: others the basic elements of the clients have not been met. 398 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 4: In others, there's not criminal intent. You haven't checked all 399 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,719 Speaker 4: the boxes, and yet you're you're rushing to charge. You're 400 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:34,439 Speaker 4: rushing to charge people we haven't ready together statements right 401 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 4: them that with their statements first, you know, give them 402 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,919 Speaker 4: an opportunity response. And that almost all that little procedural 403 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 4: and makes us wonder why was indeed Advocate Johnson in 404 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 4: or whoever decided that they must be charges preferred. H Well, 405 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 4: have they crossed all the ticked all the boxes in 406 00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 4: so far as making sure that and could it be 407 00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:04,400 Speaker 4: that We must also remember Advocate Johnson herself has got 408 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 4: answers to to answers are already to representations being made 409 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 4: with the NPA and the Department of Justice. We have 410 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,199 Speaker 4: competency and fitness to hold office is already to be 411 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,439 Speaker 4: and that goes back to some time last year, and 412 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,919 Speaker 4: we've had admit even before Parliament that indeed she has 413 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 4: done things that amount to gross misconduct insofar as have 414 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 4: been involved in the procurement. Also sort of the interviews 415 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 4: of a spouse who happens to be in the other camp. 416 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 4: As my colleague on this change is involved with you 417 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 4: that there are camps. You think subs, Yes, I SUPs 418 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,679 Speaker 4: needs to be We need to see a SUBSTA. We 419 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 4: need to have a change management. We need to measure 420 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 4: that ethical conduct is rooted within SUPs, not only SUPs, 421 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 4: including the n P as IDA and any other institution. 422 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 1: Okay, yeahs. And of course no one must be untouchable. 423 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: As long as EIDA has a strong case, they must 424 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: also go against the National Police Commissioner. Thank you so 425 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 1: much for speaking to us, really appreciate your time. Is 426 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 1: the founder and chairperson of Public Interest South Africa. Let's 427 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:14,440 Speaker 1: wait and see what charges they have IDAC against the 428 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,239 Speaker 1: National Police Commissioner and if really they have enrolled this 429 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: matter without proper evidence, we must also ask serious questions. 430 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,680 Speaker 1: Someone must be held accountable. The IDAC head must be 431 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,719 Speaker 1: held accountable because then that shows you that they are 432 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: playing factional politics here. But they may very well have 433 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 1: a strong case and that needs to be allowed to 434 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: play out in court.