WEBVTT - Digital law expert sounds the alarm after children as young as 9 are exposed to porn on WhatsApp

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<v Speaker 1>Carol says, Mandy, Emma Sadler didn't say don't give children

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<v Speaker 1>cell phones. She said they shouldn't have phones with WhatsApp

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<v Speaker 1>on them. Parents will make all sorts of excuses and

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<v Speaker 1>say kids must be able to get a hold of

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<v Speaker 1>parents and vice versa, say they need phones. She said

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<v Speaker 1>give them a simple phone that can't have WhatsApp because

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<v Speaker 1>WhatsApp is social media. Yeah, well, let's get clarity on

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<v Speaker 1>that now. And a pleasure to welcome Emma Sadler, the

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<v Speaker 1>founder of the Digital Law Company, to the show today. Emma,

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<v Speaker 1>good afternoon to you. Thanks so much for joining us.

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<v Speaker 1>A lot of conversation taking place around a video that

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<v Speaker 1>you shared on your social media about a nine-year-old girl

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<v Speaker 1>in an email that you received. For people that haven't

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<v Speaker 1>seen it, just take us through what you were told.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, I mean, I'm so happy that you're bringing some

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<v Speaker 2>attention to this because this is an issue that is

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<v Speaker 2>coming into my inbox almost on a daily basis. These very,

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<v Speaker 2>very young children being exposed to content that they simply

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<v Speaker 2>should never, ever see. And I think it's largely because

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<v Speaker 2>parents are so quick to put these very, very sophisticated

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<v Speaker 2>smartphones in the hands of children who are very young.

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<v Speaker 1>So this particular incident that you speak about, it involves

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<v Speaker 1>a group of nine-year-old girls in pornography. Tell us about

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<v Speaker 1>what happened.

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<v Speaker 2>So I got a message, Mandy, and as I say,

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<v Speaker 2>I do a lot of first response work when it

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<v Speaker 2>comes to issues around online harms being committed against children.

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<v Speaker 2>And I got this message from a mom saying that

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<v Speaker 2>her daughter, who's nine years old, goes to a very

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<v Speaker 2>good school in Johannesburg. She was added to a WhatsApp

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<v Speaker 2>group with her friends. The one nine-year-old girl created a

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<v Speaker 2>WhatsApp video call and shared pornography on the screen. And

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<v Speaker 2>all of these little nine-year-olds were exposed to this content.

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<v Speaker 2>And the parent of the child who showed the content

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<v Speaker 2>was informed. And the reaction of the parent was to

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<v Speaker 2>smack the child. and then to take her phone away.

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<v Speaker 2>And I just thought it was the most outrageous story

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<v Speaker 2>for a number of reasons. Firstly, that the nine-year-olds are

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<v Speaker 2>seeing that kind of content. And Mandy, we have to

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<v Speaker 2>say that the content that they're exposed to is not

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<v Speaker 2>the kind of magazines that we used to see 20

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<v Speaker 2>years ago. The content that the children are exposed to

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<v Speaker 2>online is so extreme. It's often so violent. It's And

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<v Speaker 2>the kids are being exposed to this very extreme content

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<v Speaker 2>from a very young age. So parents are very quick

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<v Speaker 2>to put these devices in the hands of their children.

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<v Speaker 2>I always say the Internet doesn't have a shallow end.

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<v Speaker 2>And once they're online, they're online. They're going to come

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<v Speaker 2>across predators. They're going to come across very, very inappropriate content.

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<v Speaker 2>And we're seeing the behaviors of these kids when they

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<v Speaker 2>become tweens and then teens really being impacted by this

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<v Speaker 2>very early exposure. So I just thought it was an

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<v Speaker 2>outrageous story that you as the parent are the ones

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<v Speaker 2>that are putting this very, very powerful content into the

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<v Speaker 2>hands of the children devices. And then when they see

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<v Speaker 2>the content, which they really have no option but to

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<v Speaker 2>see because it's everywhere on the Internet, then the child's

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<v Speaker 2>the one that's in trouble.

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<v Speaker 1>So I just want to get clarity on what you're

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<v Speaker 1>saying in light of that message I received. So your

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<v Speaker 1>advice is, Is it to give children, they can have phones,

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<v Speaker 1>but not phones that have access to social media, and

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<v Speaker 1>WhatsApp is defined as social media, because many parents will say, well,

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<v Speaker 1>I need to get a hold of my kid.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I think we have to be practical about it.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of parents rely on public transport for their children.

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<v Speaker 2>They send their kids out into this very scary, dangerous

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<v Speaker 2>world which we live in, and they feel like a

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<v Speaker 2>phone makes them safer. And I think that what happens

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<v Speaker 2>is that you think you're giving your child access to

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<v Speaker 2>the world, but you're giving the world access to your

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<v Speaker 2>child when you give them a smartphone. So my very,

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<v Speaker 2>very strong advice is that smartphones should be banned for

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<v Speaker 2>children in primary school, that if you need to get

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<v Speaker 2>your child a phone, you can get them, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>a good old Nokia 3210, let them play Snake if

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<v Speaker 2>they're bored waiting for you to collect them from school.

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<v Speaker 2>They can phone you to say that school has been

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<v Speaker 2>canceled or that extramural has been canceled, that kind of thing.

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<v Speaker 2>But it really is, it's just so dangerous to give

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<v Speaker 2>them any device which breaks the Internet barrier. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>anything that allows them to access content on the Internet.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think it's very, very dangerous for parents to

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<v Speaker 2>think of WhatsApp as a safer app. You know, like

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<v Speaker 2>I think that we've got to understand that WhatsApp is

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<v Speaker 2>social media. The kids from a very young age, I

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<v Speaker 2>see kids as young as grade three, grade four, creating

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<v Speaker 2>these WhatsApp groups. They call them add everyone groups. They're

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<v Speaker 2>at capacity at all times. So they're on WhatsApp groups

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<v Speaker 2>with adults, with people they don't know. You can have

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<v Speaker 2>1024 people on a WhatsApp group. I've seen children starting

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<v Speaker 2>relationships with the Meta AI chatbot, which is available on

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<v Speaker 2>WhatsApp from 8, 9, 10 years old. The WhatsApp channels

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<v Speaker 2>we know is just an absolute den of horrific content,

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<v Speaker 2>completely unregulated. So my first message is WhatsApp is social media.

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<v Speaker 2>Do not treat it differently to how you would treat

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<v Speaker 2>Snapchat or TikTok or Instagram. It's certainly not safer. And

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<v Speaker 2>the other thing is just is really starting to become

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<v Speaker 2>aware about what your child is up to. I think

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<v Speaker 2>there's so much ignorance. And Amanda, I do have to

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<v Speaker 2>acknowledge that I do appreciate that WhatsApp bundles are cheap.

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<v Speaker 2>South Africans are addicted to WhatsApp. It's a very cheap,

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<v Speaker 2>efficient way of communicating. But be very, very careful of WhatsApp.

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<v Speaker 2>Do not think it's just like being able to send SMSs.

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<v Speaker 1>Emma, thank you so much. Emma Sadlier, founder of the

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<v Speaker 1>Digital Law Company. It always puts a little bit of

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<v Speaker 1>a fear of God into me as a parent listening

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<v Speaker 1>to that, but I think it's an important warning to heed.