1 00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:03,400 Speaker 1: Beyond Belief, Beyond doctrine. 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 2: A deeper conversation Exploring Spirituality with Vasumsi Mandi on the 3 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 2: Clements man. 4 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 3: Tela shows The Clements Mania Tela Shows on. 5 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:13,120 Speaker 4: Seven O two. 6 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 5: So we started this feature last month if you've just 7 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 5: joined us and you didn't know about it, and we 8 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:25,479 Speaker 5: call it Exploring Spirituality with Vsumsi Gande. Vsumsi is the 9 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 5: author of Jenny Guanto. It's a book that I keep. 10 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:32,159 Speaker 6: Talking about everywhere I go. 11 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 5: It's an incredible book because Vasumsi spent years researching African spirituality, 12 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 5: identity and often this complex relationship between culture, religion and 13 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 5: personal belief. And I've read that book. It's so insightful, 14 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 5: so I would recommend it highly. Jenny Gwandu Exploring African 15 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 5: Spirituality and Identity, that's the title. 16 00:00:57,200 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 6: Of the book. 17 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 5: So last month we started this feature by having a 18 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 5: conversation about religion in a changing world, and in that 19 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 5: conversation we unpacked spirituality in a modern, first changing world 20 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 5: and how many people are trying to reconcile their belief systems, identity, 21 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 5: their lived experience and there was so much to explore. 22 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 5: Last month, we were inundated with your calls with your 23 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 5: whatsaps as well. We didn't have enough time to get 24 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,760 Speaker 5: through even half of your calls and WhatsApps. So what 25 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 5: we decided to do last month with Usumzi was that 26 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:37,400 Speaker 5: instead of us getting and moving to a new topic, today, 27 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 5: we're actually going to do part two of that discussion 28 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 5: about religion in a changing world. And I'd like you 29 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 5: to join this conversation. This is all about exploring. It's 30 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 5: an explorative journey. No one really has fully the answers. 31 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 5: We're trying to explore this with each other, so please 32 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 5: feel free to join the conversation on oh one one 33 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 5: eight eight three oh seven O two. I'd like to 34 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 5: know how you are navigating spirituality right in this changing world? 35 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 5: Have you ever felt torn between your religion and your 36 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 5: cultural beliefs? Where do you find yourself at in this moment? 37 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:18,799 Speaker 5: Oh one one eight eight three oh seven oh two. 38 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:20,959 Speaker 5: You can send your whatsaps on oh seven two seven 39 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 5: oh two one seven oh two. 40 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 6: For Simsy, Welcome back to the show. 41 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 5: Brother, Good morning, good morning, How are you good? 42 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:27,799 Speaker 6: Good good man? 43 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 5: So Cape Tan is good, the weather is really great. 44 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 5: The fun of a fun. I was playing Panama last night. 45 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 5: It was Chrucker blog, but it was so exhilarating, no, 46 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 5: no exciting stuff. So I can't you know how many 47 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 5: people have contacted me asking me to send them the 48 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 5: podcast of our conversation the last time. They have lost count. 49 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 5: And these are people that, I mean, many of them 50 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 5: are not even people that I know as regular listeners 51 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 5: of my show. I mean, I had someone from home 52 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 5: in boom Alanga who said, Hey, a friend of mine 53 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 5: told me you had a conversation that was so powerful 54 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 5: about spirituality with a guy called Umsi, and I said, 55 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 5: and asked me to send the podcast. So I'm really 56 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:16,079 Speaker 5: happy to see that. I'm enjoying the conversation, right, And 57 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:18,679 Speaker 5: because that's what we're trying to do, right, We're trying 58 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 5: to get people to to actually ask the uncomfortable questions 59 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 5: because many of them can't ask them in their churches, 60 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:27,519 Speaker 5: they can't ask them with their spiritual leaders, they can't 61 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 5: ask them with their them that they consult with, and 62 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 5: we want to create that platform for that. Let's just 63 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 5: recap a little bit first, UMSI. Last time, when we 64 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 5: spoke about religion in this changing world, you actually told 65 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 5: us about how Africa is now becoming especially Southern Africa 66 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 5: is becoming that center point for religion. And you know, 67 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 5: is it Catholic, Catholicism or whatever you excribe y Anglicanism. 68 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 5: Can you explain that again for those that may have 69 00:03:59,120 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 5: missed it. 70 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 6: I don't know how many people, especially in the Anglican Church, 71 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 6: are a way that. On the seventh actually of last month, 72 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 6: the Anglican Church officially split into two, between the European 73 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 6: Church and the African Church, or rather what they call 74 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 6: the Global South, right. And what that means is that 75 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 6: the majority now of Anglican believers now reside in the 76 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,039 Speaker 6: Global South. And this is now across the board with 77 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 6: most of religious institutions, most churches. Now the largest body 78 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 6: of believers within any Christian faith now reside in the 79 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 6: Global South. And what that means is that purely based 80 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 6: on numbers or numbers alone, Africans, predominantly Africans, are now 81 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 6: in charge of the Christian Faith. Now, from this point onwards, 82 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 6: the character, the nature, the prince pole of Christianity is 83 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 6: going to be decided by Africans, because if you look 84 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 6: at what's happening around the world, the kills that's happening 85 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 6: around the world, the West, as the you know, the 86 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 6: moral authority, especially when it comes to religion, has been lost, 87 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 6: you know, and in that there isn't much that the 88 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 6: West can offer the rest of the world spiritually and religiously, 89 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 6: you know, with all the kills. So what that means 90 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:31,640 Speaker 6: now is that with Christianity and religion in general and 91 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 6: as well as spirituality, the question is what are Africans 92 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 6: going to do with the power that they have now 93 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 6: been granted? Because the technical thing about it is that 94 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 6: this change, the shift is not necessarily unmerit This is 95 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 6: a change because we live in a human society. Human 96 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 6: societies are governed by change, and they are governed by cycles, 97 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:56,280 Speaker 6: and now the cycle of spirituality and religion has cycled 98 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 6: from the West to the global South, you know. And 99 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 6: what we have to consider is that historically, especially when 100 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 6: it comes to Christianity, when you speak about the relationship 101 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 6: of Africans and religion and Christianity, is that there is 102 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:13,840 Speaker 6: a harsh history behind it. You know, when we encountered Christianity, 103 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 6: it came in the form of colonialism, it came in 104 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 6: the form of oppression, disposition in all of those ils. 105 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 6: So now the christian is now that it is in 106 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:26,160 Speaker 6: our control. What is the character of spirituality going to be? 107 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 6: What does it now represent? And I have to go 108 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:34,600 Speaker 6: back to what the split in the Anglican Church is symbolizes, 109 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 6: because the split happens fundamentally over something very basic or 110 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 6: other aaaa one issue, and that is that the global self. 111 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 6: The leaders of the Global SEUTH believe that in the 112 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 6: Anglican Church in Europe, inaugurating a woman as a bishop 113 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 6: goes against the principles of the faith itself. That's number one, 114 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 6: and number two it is that they do not believe 115 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:05,480 Speaker 6: in how the Western Church is basically creating a space 116 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 6: for the presence of the LGBTQ plus community. They believe 117 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 6: that community does not have a place within the church right. 118 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 6: So that is one thing that is a that is 119 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 6: a highlight as to what are the ways in which 120 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 6: the African Body of Christ is going to shape religion 121 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 6: and Christianity going forward. But there's just one church. It 122 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 6: is not to say that that is what's happening across 123 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 6: the board, you know, But the reality of the situation 124 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 6: is that ultimately Africans are now officially and unofficially in 125 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 6: charge of the Christian faith. And now what are they 126 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 6: going to do about it. 127 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:52,119 Speaker 5: Yeah, one of the things lately that you hear a lot, 128 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 5: especially from even well also from the younger. Let me 129 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 5: not say especially because I wouldn't know how to quantify it, 130 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 5: but a lot of people, when you ask them about, 131 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 5: you know, whether they go to church or their religious 132 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 5: you often hear this phrase, I am not religious, I'm spiritual. 133 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 5: I am getting to a point of seeking a relationship 134 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 5: with God directly as opposed to through my pastor through 135 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 5: my religious leader. What does that tell us about where 136 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 5: we find ourselves now? Do do you get a sense 137 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 5: that there's a yearning to experience God and this superpower directly? 138 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 5: And is it because of people who feel failed by 139 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 5: the spiritual leaders and the churches? 140 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 6: Oh? 141 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 5: Is it just a yelling of I want to have 142 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 5: a direct relationship with whoever or whatever the source is. 143 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:56,560 Speaker 6: You know, when you started, we said that we deal 144 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 6: with very difficult questions, and what you start with now, 145 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 6: what you're bringing us to is one of the most 146 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 6: difficult questions to ask within the spiritual and religious space, 147 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 6: and that is the question of what happens when a 148 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 6: person loses their faith, which is now the reality of 149 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 6: many people right losing faith in your beliefs. This is 150 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 6: and this is across the board. You have people who 151 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 6: are Christians who no longer feel connected to Christianity. You 152 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 6: have people who went through into us and were deep 153 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 6: within the African spiritual belief system and now they have 154 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 6: they're feeling like they don't It does not resonate with them. 155 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,959 Speaker 6: And I think this is in this session I would 156 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 6: like to speak on that a lot. I want us 157 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 6: to speak to people who have lost their faith, you know. 158 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 6: I want us to be in conversation with those people. 159 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:50,800 Speaker 6: But this topic when it comes up, when you speak 160 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 6: about the concept of the reality of people losing their 161 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 6: faith and losing their or disconnecting with their beliefs, a 162 00:09:57,360 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 6: lot of the time the people who respond are going 163 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 6: to be peopleeople who want to give advice on what 164 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 6: to do when that happens, or people who want to say, no, 165 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 6: if this has happened, this is how you go back, 166 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 6: you know. But I wanted to take time to embrace 167 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:13,680 Speaker 6: those people who are still in that in that phase 168 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:17,200 Speaker 6: whereby they're saying, I had this, I grew up in 169 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 6: this particular faith, but I feel disconnected from it or 170 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 6: there's this particular direction that I went into as as 171 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 6: of my own accord. But now it's finding me in 172 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:29,680 Speaker 6: a way where I feel like this is actually not 173 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,439 Speaker 6: me anymore. And one of the things I want to 174 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 6: touch on is the reality of trauma and religion. We 175 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 6: generally really underestimate the realities of what trauma does to people. 176 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:45,680 Speaker 6: And here's a thing with people, with a lot of people, 177 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 6: trauma creates very deep bonds and comes to religion, you know, 178 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 6: And part of it is because there's something that happens 179 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 6: between human beings when we suffer together. There's a there's 180 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:01,079 Speaker 6: there's something that makes us feel deep reconnected to something 181 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 6: when we suffer together, sometimes even more than winning together. 182 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 6: You know, when we suffer together, when we win together, 183 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 6: it means something even more as you're talking about, you know, 184 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,679 Speaker 6: very evident in soccer. You know, when we are there 185 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 6: in the stadium were suffering together. When we win, we 186 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 6: create you feel that an affinity towards other people. So 187 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 6: now there's a sense of with with spirituality and religion, 188 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 6: there's there's this concept of you know, sofa song, we 189 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 6: we are in this together. You know, So when you 190 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 6: start losing now your faith, because trauma can lead you 191 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 6: deeper into your faith, and trauma can also lead you 192 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 6: out of it when you start losing your faith. The 193 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:44,079 Speaker 6: danger that we all know subconsciously in our psyche is 194 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 6: that you're in you are putting yourself in a situation 195 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:51,320 Speaker 6: where you are going to suffer alone. Suffering alone is 196 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 6: not necessarily something that people are averse to. The issue 197 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 6: with suffering alone is that religion gives us meaning for suffering. 198 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 6: Religion will say you're suffering because of this reason. You're 199 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 6: suffering because you know God is molding you and God 200 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 6: is creating, you know, is working on your character. Or 201 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 6: you would say you know with an African spirituality, they 202 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 6: would say, you know, if it was leading you to 203 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 6: a better version of yourself, that is what's happening now. 204 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 6: Outside of that framework, suffering seems like it's suffering for 205 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:24,559 Speaker 6: its own sake, and this is a thing that can 206 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 6: cause deep level of fear and to say like, I 207 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 6: can't go outside because whatever is going to happen to 208 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 6: me outside has no reason and for me, the idea 209 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:40,400 Speaker 6: of that kind of annihilation of character of my being, 210 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 6: that all of those things are going to be happening 211 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 6: and I won't have some kind of justification. It's part 212 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 6: of what leads people to struggle with exploring or other 213 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 6: thinking outside of their own belief system. 214 00:12:53,400 --> 00:13:00,079 Speaker 5: Okay, but then I'm just trying to think now that 215 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 5: that there are people who are of course, they like 216 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 5: the idea of okay, there can be justification and explanations 217 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 5: to the suffering. But I do find that sometimes those 218 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 5: explanations and justifications still don't land. And I think I 219 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 5: use this example the last time when we spoke that 220 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 5: what do you say to a mother who loses a 221 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 5: two month old child or two year old child from cancer, 222 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:33,719 Speaker 5: and this mother has prayed and. 223 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:37,959 Speaker 6: Begged God, and the pasta. 224 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 5: Or even the Sanma who was helping the mom, said, 225 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 5: let's keep on praying to the and asking the ancestors 226 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:45,839 Speaker 5: to help. Let's keep on praying and asking God to help. 227 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 5: The help is on the way. Some pastors would preach 228 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 5: and say, don't worry, helping your child is healed. 229 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 6: In the name of Jesus. In your child dies. 230 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:01,040 Speaker 5: And now suddenly the pastors moved from the confidence of 231 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 5: I declare because you've declared it. You've said to this 232 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 5: woman your child is gonna live, but the child dies, 233 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 5: or someone who's prayed for their mom to be healed, 234 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 5: but the mom dies and then it changes then to 235 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 5: oh no, but it is the will of God or 236 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 5: God is trying to pun you to strengthen you. How 237 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 5: do we rationalize that? And I think I raised it 238 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 5: in our last conversation that I think maybe the mistake 239 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 5: we make is to think God is an emotional god 240 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 5: like that that can just be appealed to when I 241 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 5: first for three days because I need a job, and 242 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 5: if I fast for three days, then I'm gonna get 243 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 5: a random call suddenly asking me to come for an interview. 244 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 5: Is that how we rationalize with the God? Or do 245 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 5: we actually love the protection that comes with At least 246 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 5: I can explain even when I fail an exam, even 247 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 5: when my mom passes away, even when my child dies, 248 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 5: there's an explanation I have that helps me hold on 249 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 5: to the faith. 250 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 6: You know, this is making me think of the principles 251 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 6: of African spirituality in the way it was formulated in 252 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 6: ancient times. Is that within African spirituality you can't there 253 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 6: is nothing to fall out of, if you know what 254 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 6: I mean. Because within African spirituality, we are of nature, 255 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 6: we are within nature, we are of God. We are 256 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 6: within God, so there's nothing that comes out that you 257 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 6: will be falling out of. You can't lose faith necessarily 258 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 6: in nature because nature is something that is all encompassing. 259 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 6: So now what you're raising is the reality that worse 260 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 6: than religion has created an entity separate from us. It 261 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 6: has created this belief system that we go into and 262 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 6: we can we can come out of right. And now 263 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 6: I want to speak particularly about you know, the mother 264 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 6: who has lost their child, because what religion will say 265 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 6: is that if you are at that woman and you 266 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 6: start questioning God, you are doing something wrong wrong, you 267 00:15:56,520 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 6: know what I mean? And for me, those are the 268 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 6: people that I believe in. This this particular moment need 269 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 6: to be attended to say what happens when someone goes 270 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 6: through trauma. As I say, it's trauma that can lead 271 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 6: you into faith, and there's also trauma that can lead 272 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 6: you out of it. Because you know, there's different kinds 273 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 6: of trauma. There is death trauma like the shock, the 274 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 6: sudden something that happens, accidents and all of those things. 275 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 6: You know, like you lose a child, you lose a partner, 276 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 6: you lose a parent in all of those things, or 277 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 6: you lose your job or your capacity to work. That 278 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:30,880 Speaker 6: is the one thing. And then there's also a more 279 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 6: prolonged kind of trauma that happens over time, over decades, 280 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 6: something that sort of hollows you out. There are things 281 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 6: that happen and I can say that's something that happened 282 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 6: to me in the church. You know, something that happens 283 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 6: over time, and it just keeps hollowing you out over time, 284 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 6: and you get to the point where one day you 285 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 6: wake up and you're like, what am I doing? You know, 286 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 6: you're sitting there in church and there is this you know, 287 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 6: you're listening. You've been doing this for most of your life, 288 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 6: and you're like, there's nothing here for me. You know. 289 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 6: What I want to emphasize is that that moment is 290 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 6: probably the most important moment in your spiritual journey outside 291 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 6: of everything that has happened a part up until that moment. 292 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,360 Speaker 6: In that now, what is happening is that you are 293 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 6: dismantling within yourself the mechanisms, the infrastructure of the man 294 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 6: made faith. Now you're confronting spirituality in and of itself. 295 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 6: You are there by yourself and saying, why is it 296 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:35,159 Speaker 6: that I was supposed to lose a child, because no 297 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:38,120 Speaker 6: one is going to answer that question for you, you know. 298 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:40,959 Speaker 6: But now I want to also emphasize the importance of 299 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 6: embracing that you're in. There's different mechanisms of moving away 300 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 6: from your faith. I think in Christianity there's been a 301 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 6: movement called deconstruction. It has been happening in the worst 302 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:56,439 Speaker 6: and a lot of young people have been going through that, 303 00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 6: which is basically where you systematically, through reading a lot 304 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 6: of the time ironically, through reading and research, you start 305 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,400 Speaker 6: putting pieces together and you get to a point where 306 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 6: you're like, this faith does not make logical sense anymore, 307 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 6: and this faith is not what I thought it is 308 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 6: here And in many ways, people who find themselves in 309 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:24,440 Speaker 6: these situations where they are questioning, where they find themselves 310 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 6: not connected. Even within African spirituality, there are many people who, 311 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 6: as I said before, who went through into us and 312 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 6: became healers, or people who went into the faith, into 313 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,639 Speaker 6: the belief system and wanted to practice it consciously and intentionally. 314 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 6: Yet they're finding that, you know, nothing is getting better 315 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 6: because there's an irony in that African spirituality is always 316 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 6: connected with social economic trauma. You know, issus is there 317 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 6: seemingly to solve your social economic problems where it be 318 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:54,680 Speaker 6: a job beard at this speed, a lot of the 319 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 6: time is connected with social economic problems, predominantly outside of 320 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 6: family things. And now there's many people like that. Many 321 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 6: of us went through the process where like now we're 322 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:10,640 Speaker 6: finding ourselves outside of our faith, We're finding ourselves outside 323 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:13,679 Speaker 6: of our belief system. It's like you are you are 324 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 6: spiritually homeless. You know, yeah, you're a spiritually homeless person 325 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 6: and you are in that moment where you feel like 326 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 6: what now? And that's possibly the most daunting thing about it, 327 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 6: because it's easy to say, I don't believe in church anymore, 328 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 6: I don't believe in this. But now the reality is that, Okay, 329 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:35,360 Speaker 6: what happens in the wilderness in that, in that homelessness, 330 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 6: and that is something that I believe that we now 331 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 6: need to face and embrace. 332 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 5: And where do you run to once when you're in 333 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 5: the wilderness and there's trauma that comes or there's a 334 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 5: shock that happens in your life, do you have the 335 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 5: capacity to handle it on your own? Because for the 336 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 5: rest of your life, what you have been taught is 337 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 5: here's a framework, here's a framework. Either you have to 338 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 5: go your pastia and talk to Abadabadahala and say, hey, 339 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,679 Speaker 5: this is what I need. Please help here, or you 340 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:08,439 Speaker 5: go to church and you pray and you say to 341 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 5: God help me, I'm here. When you are outside of 342 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 5: those institutions, and the shock that happens, yes, where do 343 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 5: you go? And because the issue is, for the last 344 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 5: thirty six years of your life, you've lived on a framework, 345 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 5: but now you've left that framework, whether through African spirituality 346 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 5: or through the church, would you say that? And maybe 347 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 5: this is what most people don't talk about. When you 348 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 5: are in that so called wilderness and spiritually homeless, that's 349 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:45,120 Speaker 5: the loneliness that that tackles you, the inability to know 350 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,639 Speaker 5: where to move to because the frameworks you used to 351 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 5: rely on for the rest of your life are completely 352 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 5: out of the window. 353 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 7: Now. 354 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 6: Yes, you know, it's like you've been reading my mind. 355 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 6: One of the biggest issues that you face when you 356 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 6: are in the spiritual is the idea that religion and 357 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 6: spirituality actually comprise more of more than just what God 358 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:11,679 Speaker 6: do you believe in. It's also the framework because what 359 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 6: happens when you leave your church, you leave your religion, 360 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 6: you leave you leave your faith. What happens there is 361 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:21,200 Speaker 6: that you also lose your spiritual support system, you lose 362 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 6: your infrastructure, you lose in some instances, you lose friends, 363 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 6: you lose family, you know, you lose people who are 364 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,119 Speaker 6: very close to you because now they can no longer 365 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 6: relate to you because to them you have they only 366 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 6: see you as a part of this thing. They don't 367 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 6: recognize anything outside of that. But here's the irony of it. 368 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:47,439 Speaker 6: In just about every spiritual discipline, in every Christian faith 369 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:52,399 Speaker 6: or religion, there's always a period of being in the 370 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 6: wilderness be it. You know, Jesus Christ found himself in 371 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 6: the wilderness, you know, Prophet mahar but Muhammad was found 372 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:07,639 Speaker 6: himself in that in isolation when he when he was given, 373 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 6: you know, instruction to write the Quran, you know, for 374 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 6: for Moses. In within Jewish practice, there's always moments. Even 375 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:21,400 Speaker 6: if you look at Buddha, so that Kakama found himself 376 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,280 Speaker 6: in the spiritual wilderness before he became the Buddha, you know. 377 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 6: So I think some people call it the dark Knight, Yes, 378 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 6: the dark Knight of the soul precisely. And there is 379 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 6: a thing in which within all spiritual practices, somehow that 380 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,919 Speaker 6: period gets negated and or or that we get we 381 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 6: get shamed into believing that that period, you know, is 382 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 6: something that is wrong, because when that person was going 383 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 6: through that, even trust himself, when he was going through 384 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:53,120 Speaker 6: through that, you know, it wasn't a rejection of something. 385 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 6: It was that there are things that are happening that 386 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 6: I'm trying to understand and they're not fitting in with 387 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 6: my understanding of the world. And there's now a necessary 388 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 6: aspect whereby you need to consciously to construct your faith 389 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 6: from every aspect of it right up and told you 390 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 6: it's very foundation to say, what is it this thing 391 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 6: that I believe in and why is it that I 392 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 6: believe in it? 393 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's ten thirty one Beyond Belief, Beyond Doctrine. 394 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 2: A deeper conversation Exploring Spirituality with Vasumzi Nandi on The 395 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 2: Clements Mana Tela show. 396 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 3: The Clements Manila shows on. 397 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 5: Seven o two, twenty three minutes before eleven outlog. 398 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,400 Speaker 6: It's our monthly feature. 399 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 5: We call this Exploring Spirituality with Vasumzi in London, and 400 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:48,640 Speaker 5: it's all about doing exactly that, exploring spirituality. A lot 401 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:53,399 Speaker 5: of people have felt like they're losing faith. There are 402 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 5: many people that are also going back to their faith. 403 00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:59,439 Speaker 5: There are many questions that people ask themselves in this 404 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 5: engine world, and most of those questions are about spirituality, 405 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 5: and we want to create a platform for you to 406 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 5: question with us, right. We want to create a platform 407 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 5: for you to ask your uncomfortable questions that you wouldn't 408 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:21,119 Speaker 5: necessarily ask in front of your spiritual leader, in front 409 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 5: of your family that has brought you into their spiritual beliefs. 410 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 5: We want that platform to be able to ask those questions. 411 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 5: So that's why we've created this platform. Let's start with 412 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 5: your WhatsApps that are coming through on seven to seven 413 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 5: O two and seven o two morning. 414 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 4: Clement, Good, good topic, Clement. I think. 415 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 8: People must stop being must let by this past us 416 00:24:52,320 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 8: and this false profits they giving people false hope. God 417 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 8: cannot be blame. The Bible says that God pleases as 418 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:16,640 Speaker 8: he does. You understand. So there's a time to love 419 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 8: and there's a time to die. If it is the 420 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 8: world of God, their child must love, their child will love. 421 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:28,919 Speaker 8: If it's not in the world of God for their 422 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:33,159 Speaker 8: child to love, that, their child will die. 423 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:45,640 Speaker 4: So that's my opinion. I Ah, but. 424 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:51,239 Speaker 8: God is never to be blame for anything. You might 425 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,400 Speaker 8: just bear that in mind. Thanks clamor. 426 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,200 Speaker 5: M Well, thank you very much for for you What's 427 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 5: a voice note, there's another one that's come through, but 428 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 5: before I get to it, let me read this message 429 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,160 Speaker 5: from is it Chicks on the WhatsApp blind New says Clement. 430 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,680 Speaker 5: I listened to a recent podcast episode and they spoke 431 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 5: about how the most successful countries are the least religious, 432 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,159 Speaker 5: and US mostly here in Africa and poor countries have 433 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 5: become the most religious. And I wonder if this speaks 434 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:28,919 Speaker 5: to Africa taking over Christianity because we are in dire 435 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 5: straits that we need God's oh and we need God's 436 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,440 Speaker 5: intervention so much. I think that's what you're trying to 437 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:40,159 Speaker 5: say there, chicks, thank you so much for what's up. 438 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:44,919 Speaker 5: In fact, we touched on this with Vusunzi in the 439 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 5: last episode about how much of this increase in people 440 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 5: going back to their religion on the southern part of 441 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,919 Speaker 5: this continent and broadly on this continent, how much of 442 00:26:56,960 --> 00:27:00,879 Speaker 5: that has to do with of course they need that exists. 443 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:03,920 Speaker 5: Let's go to some more What's ups also into seven 444 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 5: O two and seven or two. 445 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 7: High clements. Absolutely love this topic, so thank you so 446 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:22,320 Speaker 7: much to be your guests from my side personally secular, 447 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 7: it's going to honor Amasi and watching Saba Bazan, which 448 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:31,880 Speaker 7: came with a lot of conflict, a lot of separation, 449 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 7: a lot of division within the family, which is tough, 450 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 7: and a lot of practices that we were practiced previously 451 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:41,400 Speaker 7: in terms of slender. 452 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 4: Mean more, et cetera. That all stopped. 453 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 7: There's a lot of things that stopped, for example, bg 454 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 7: a pansy. 455 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 6: Andlean a lot, and it's. 456 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 7: Caused a lot, a lot, a lot, a lot of 457 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:04,880 Speaker 7: problems in our family and division because you cannot be this, 458 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 7: you cannot honor, you cannot you know, you have to 459 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:09,159 Speaker 7: be one thing or another. 460 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 4: You can't be both. 461 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:18,439 Speaker 5: Yeah, that that's a complex one, hey, Vasumzi. And I 462 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:20,400 Speaker 5: know in the book you touch a bit about it. 463 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 5: Many people feel like they have to choose between Christianity 464 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 5: or you know, their religion whatever it is, and ancestral 465 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 5: belief And I wonder if is that a false choice? 466 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 6: Like can can. 467 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 5: These belief systems genuinely coexist or there they are the 468 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 5: fundamental contradictions or does it depend on you as an 469 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 5: individual how you relate with them. 470 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 6: The question itself is the premise of the Christian. The 471 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 6: context of the Christian comes from the Western construct of 472 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 6: religion of either or you know, in in in group dynamics, 473 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 6: in that within our own beliefs, we wouldn't have a 474 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 6: thing where do you believe in this or that? Across 475 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:12,239 Speaker 6: many cultures, non Western cultures, there's there's a plurality in 476 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 6: how people practice their their beliefs and there's very rarely 477 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 6: a thing that if you don't do, if you don't 478 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 6: practice this, then there's going to be like eternal damnation 479 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 6: for you. You know. So the question is is relevant 480 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 6: and it is extremely important. But also we have to 481 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 6: understand where the question is coming from. Within an African perspective, 482 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 6: there isn't a question of do you choose between this 483 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 6: or that? For example, you can have ill lawsy which 484 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 6: were people who lived before you, who are spirit beings 485 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:50,160 Speaker 6: who can help you to navigate Christianity itself because you 486 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 6: might find that you have an elder who passed away. 487 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,480 Speaker 6: I was recently, I was interviewing a lady who is 488 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 6: a founder of a church who is also a healer, 489 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 6: and that church was given to her by her deceased grandfather. 490 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 6: She was basically doing the work that he gave her, 491 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 6: you know, who was in every way a pastor, a preacher, 492 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 6: someone who was deeply involved within the church. And after 493 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 6: he passed, he said, you are now going to be 494 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 6: the custodian of this church. So the question of do 495 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 6: we choose between that or that is actually not our question, 496 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 6: you know, it's a question that is given to us. 497 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 6: So it's not about whether you can do you can 498 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 6: do both because both are in some ways the same thing. 499 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 6: But within the Christian faith there are very clear lines 500 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 6: that are drawn. Very recently. You know, there's a pastor 501 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 6: who was basically put on leave because he's also a healer. 502 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 6: At the same time, you have then the Methodist Church 503 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 6: who are actually taking strides. A couple of years ago, 504 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 6: they held a seminar where they were speaking to people 505 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 6: who are healers within the Methodist Church to say what 506 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 6: are their realities. Even though the church cannot make pronouncements 507 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 6: as to whether or not what role you can play, 508 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 6: the Methodist Church has embraced that reality that it exists 509 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,239 Speaker 6: within an African society, and within the African society, you know, 510 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 6: you have these particular realities for people. 511 00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's it's so interesting. So how do you then explain. 512 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:29,360 Speaker 5: Assume a situation where someone doesn't necessarily maybe they believe 513 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 5: in Islam or Christianity, and then there's someone who comes 514 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 5: to them who is a traditional healer, who says, you 515 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 5: need to go and you've got a calling or you 516 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 5: need to your dad isn't unhappy about certain things. And 517 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 5: when you look back, this dad has never even taken 518 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 5: care of you. 519 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 6: You don't even. 520 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:55,520 Speaker 5: Right. 521 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 6: You speak about this also in the book. But what 522 00:31:58,480 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 6: do you say to that? 523 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 5: Because there are people who say, but I don't believe 524 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 5: in that, So why would someone then come to me 525 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 5: and say, hey, you need to use your father's surname? 526 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 6: At that time? 527 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 5: Your father has never even bought you a pair of 528 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 5: genes or underwear, but for. 529 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,880 Speaker 6: Some reason in his deceased state. 530 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 5: And environment, wherever they are, and now he's a pleasant 531 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 5: they are, and now they want you to buy expensive 532 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 5: alcohol and then take their surname. 533 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 6: Like, how do you rationalize that? You know, here's the 534 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 6: irony of it. Let's take religion and spirituality to put 535 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 6: it aside. You let's say you're an atheist to believe 536 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 6: in nothing, right, you don't believe in spirituality, You don't 537 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 6: believe in God. You can grow up in a particular 538 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 6: home relatively fine. You can go to school relatively okay. 539 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 6: You can finish school, start a career and be relatively fine. 540 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 6: You can find love and be relatively happy in your 541 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 6: marriage and have kids and be relatively fine without ever 542 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 6: believing in anything you know. And whenever bad things happen 543 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 6: to you, you are going to say is because life happens. 544 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 6: You know the realities of how relevant is it when 545 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 6: a person comes to you and says you have to 546 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 6: do this because your grandfather did this and this for example, 547 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 6: You're not going to go to a white person and 548 00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 6: say that to right, You're not going to go to 549 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:25,960 Speaker 6: this other person and say, no, your grandfather does this. 550 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 6: This there's particular context to it. And it also depends 551 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 6: on what you believe in, what your actual belief is. 552 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 6: And I want to raise something that is I believe 553 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 6: is the fundamental foundation of belief and faith, because there's 554 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 6: something that is very subtle in spirituality and religion that 555 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 6: is extremely subtle, but it is extremely powerful in how 556 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 6: it plays out in our lives. And that is the 557 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 6: question of resonance. What resonates with you? Right, The question 558 00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 6: of Resonance is something either feels right or sounds right. 559 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:07,080 Speaker 6: So I'll give you an example. In Malcolm Gladwell's book 560 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 6: I Think It's Meet talking to Strangers, there's an experiment 561 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,720 Speaker 6: that was done in America where it was a speed 562 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,440 Speaker 6: dating experiment where they got a group of people together 563 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,439 Speaker 6: to do speed dating. And what they did was they 564 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 6: made the people write down your list of requirements and 565 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 6: a partner to say, you know, what would you like 566 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 6: to have in an ideal partner, and the people wrote 567 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 6: it down. And they did this experiment a couple of 568 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 6: times with different groups of people, and what they found 569 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:39,160 Speaker 6: consistently was that most of the time people ended up 570 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 6: connecting with people who didn't meet their requirements right. A 571 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,319 Speaker 6: lot of the people ended up dating people who did 572 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:50,360 Speaker 6: not actually meet what was stipulated in their tick boxes. 573 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 6: And that's the question of resonance. There are things that 574 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,480 Speaker 6: sound right to you and there are things that feel right. 575 00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 6: There was an earlier caller who were speaking about what 576 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:03,320 Speaker 6: the Bible both says, and here's the reality that sometimes 577 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 6: people who are Christian kind of don't understand. You can 578 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 6: quote to me a scripture a million times and nothing happens. 579 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 6: You can quote that scripture to one other person and 580 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 6: it leads to some kind of revelation. And this is 581 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:24,280 Speaker 6: the question of resonance. What resonates with you? And the 582 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,360 Speaker 6: issue about resonance is that it's built up into things 583 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:32,239 Speaker 6: that sometimes we actually don't have control over, right, And 584 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 6: this is the thing. You don't choose who you like. 585 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:40,400 Speaker 6: You don't choose your type. You just resonate with your type. 586 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:41,920 Speaker 6: This is the thing. If we were to put it 587 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 6: within relationship terms, you didn't decide what your type should be, like, no, 588 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:49,799 Speaker 6: I prefer this. You can say, I prefer this kind 589 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 6: of a person with this particular build. You didn't decide 590 00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 6: for that to be something that you want in a person. 591 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 6: That is a thing that resonated with you. And this 592 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 6: is now something that people who are deeply religious sometimes 593 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 6: struggle to understand, is that sometimes you are in a 594 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,560 Speaker 6: particular faith because it resonates with you, even in its 595 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 6: in its darkest moments, even in its most challenging part 596 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 6: it still resonates with you. And for me, the concept 597 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 6: of resonance, I want to say, almost dismantles the concept 598 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 6: that we all need to be within a particular belief system. 599 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 6: You know, there are people who are who would be 600 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 6: better if we could choose of our owner court. Let's 601 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:33,440 Speaker 6: say all the religions were laid out in front of you, 602 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 6: certain people would only resonate with certain with certain belief systems, 603 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 6: you know. To take it back to the idea of relationships, 604 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:44,440 Speaker 6: if you were to give me, let's say your your 605 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,400 Speaker 6: list of requirements in a woman, in a partner, you know, 606 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 6: and you say, I want this and this and this 607 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,360 Speaker 6: and this and this. I can bring ten of them, 608 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 6: all of them meet those requirements, and you're not going 609 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:55,759 Speaker 6: to fall in love with a single one of them, 610 00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,239 Speaker 6: not one of them. You are going to go in, 611 00:36:58,440 --> 00:36:59,920 Speaker 6: you're going to see what you're going to say in, 612 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,160 Speaker 6: and you're going to walk out, and you're going to say, 613 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:07,840 Speaker 6: she's not here, why because there's yes, So I need people. 614 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,759 Speaker 6: It's important for us to understand that when you are 615 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:15,560 Speaker 6: in that spiritual wilderness, the thing that has faded is 616 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:19,640 Speaker 6: resonance with particular things. It's not to say the belief 617 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:23,720 Speaker 6: that you're is necessarily wrong. It just stopped feeling wrong 618 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 6: to you. It might still sound right, you know, it 619 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 6: might still sound right that Jesus Christ is your lord, 620 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,279 Speaker 6: and say it sounds right, but it doesn't feel right. 621 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,600 Speaker 6: And for me that for those people who are finding 622 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,800 Speaker 6: themselves in the spiritual wilderness, that's something that I would 623 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,239 Speaker 6: need them to be cognizant of, is that what has 624 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 6: also happened in that space is that it is your 625 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:48,720 Speaker 6: resonance that has decreased, your resonance within a particular space, 626 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,520 Speaker 6: within a particular belief system, and the resonance of it 627 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:56,440 Speaker 6: is not the canceling of that particular practice. 628 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:01,440 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's not the consolation of that practice, all right. 629 00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:03,200 Speaker 5: Nine minutes before eleven. 630 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 1: O'clock Beyond Belief, Beyond Doctrine, a deeper conversation exploring spirituality 631 00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,480 Speaker 1: with Vasumzin Nandi on the Clements Manya. 632 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:15,920 Speaker 3: Tela shows The Clements Mania Tela Show on seven oh two. 633 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,719 Speaker 5: It's six minutes before eleven o'clock. Let's go to your 634 00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 5: WhatsApps on oh seven two, seven o two and seven oh. 635 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:26,279 Speaker 9: Two, High Clement and to your guests, she was here 636 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 9: in Boksburg. I just wanted to know, you know, what 637 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:35,359 Speaker 9: is the definition of faith, because what I think it 638 00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:39,520 Speaker 9: is is it means following blandly, you know, without any knowledge, 639 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:46,120 Speaker 9: without any certainty. For example, if one jumps off a building, 640 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 9: will jump off knowing that they're going to survive no 641 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:53,319 Speaker 9: matter what, as opposed to hoping they will survive. So 642 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:58,000 Speaker 9: maybe let's start by trying to define what faith is actually. 643 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:00,960 Speaker 4: Thanks High Clement. 644 00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:05,480 Speaker 10: I've got a question, what's the point of praying being 645 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:09,240 Speaker 10: because we always get if it's the will of God, 646 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,640 Speaker 10: it will not happen or it will happen. Right, So 647 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:15,480 Speaker 10: it sounds like the decision has been made, is predetermined 648 00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:18,359 Speaker 10: it will happen or not. So what's the point of 649 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:26,840 Speaker 10: praying then or fasting? Asking if it's already been decided? Thanks? 650 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:28,359 Speaker 2: We have this. 651 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:32,440 Speaker 6: Particularly good morning, Good morning element Alvin. You know me 652 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:36,760 Speaker 6: not a lement. I just choose not to complicate things. 653 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,400 Speaker 6: I'm living a very simple and balanced life. You know, 654 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,160 Speaker 6: you ask me to come with you to church, or 655 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:45,080 Speaker 6: to go with you to church. I do I go 656 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:48,480 Speaker 6: to church your have you or some on my event, 657 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:52,000 Speaker 6: whatever whatever you ask me to do it. When I'm 658 00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,920 Speaker 6: living a balance life, I don't have a specific a 659 00:39:55,960 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 6: commitment to any any practice. For me. I'm very lexable. 660 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:03,560 Speaker 6: Whatever that you want me to do, I don't have 661 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 6: anything that I do it myself. But you know when 662 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:08,840 Speaker 6: I join people. If you ask me to come to 663 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:10,600 Speaker 6: go to church, I go to church, you ask me 664 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:14,560 Speaker 6: to go whatever I do. Thank you so much for 665 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:15,799 Speaker 6: your WhatsApp assumes it. 666 00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:19,840 Speaker 5: There was that question about faith, and then the question 667 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,800 Speaker 5: about what's the point of praying if then you're also 668 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,320 Speaker 5: going to be told. But it's the will of God, 669 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:28,680 Speaker 5: so then it's already decided. So intender's a land. 670 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,480 Speaker 6: Sure to do with the first one, the issue of 671 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:36,920 Speaker 6: definition of faith. It's one of those things where it 672 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:39,879 Speaker 6: doesn't matter how it is explained to you, it's going 673 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,279 Speaker 6: to be. It will either make sense to you it 674 00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,680 Speaker 6: doesn't make sense to you. In and of itself. Faith 675 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,680 Speaker 6: is something that exists within us. It is not an 676 00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:53,879 Speaker 6: abstract It is not like something that lives intellectually. As 677 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,920 Speaker 6: human beings, we believe in something when you When we 678 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:01,120 Speaker 6: go to school, we go to school with a particular 679 00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:03,279 Speaker 6: belief that if I go to school, this and this 680 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:07,000 Speaker 6: is going to happen. If I go to work, this 681 00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:09,320 Speaker 6: and this is going to happen. Here's the irony of 682 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:12,719 Speaker 6: faith in the world that we live in. It is 683 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 6: that the whole entire global economic system is based is 684 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:22,320 Speaker 6: built on faith. Right, there's this concept that in, for example, 685 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,280 Speaker 6: underpinning much of the global economy, and that is gold. 686 00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:28,279 Speaker 6: The value of gold is something that we have faith in. 687 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:32,719 Speaker 6: We can choose tomorrow that gold actually doesn't have much 688 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:35,000 Speaker 6: value because if you're to look at the uses of 689 00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,440 Speaker 6: gold compared to whatever, platinum and all of those things, 690 00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:42,799 Speaker 6: gold doesn't have as many uses as we think. But we' 691 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:47,680 Speaker 6: throughout human history for thousands, for tens of thousands of years, 692 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:50,680 Speaker 6: we've decided that this thing has a particular value based 693 00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:54,239 Speaker 6: on its rarity. We said, if something is rare, it's 694 00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:57,319 Speaker 6: something that is valuable. That is faith. You know, you 695 00:41:57,440 --> 00:41:59,840 Speaker 6: have faith in the fact that there is money somewhere 696 00:41:59,920 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 6: or yours sitting in an account some way, that money 697 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:07,560 Speaker 6: exists as code on a system, on software. That is faith. 698 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:11,960 Speaker 6: The whole our whole human system functions on believing in 699 00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:16,160 Speaker 6: things that we're convincing ourselves have faith. So we can't 700 00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:20,360 Speaker 6: say that or rather, faith is the inherent belief in 701 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:23,879 Speaker 6: human psyche that this is how the world functions and 702 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,680 Speaker 6: that is what gives it form, you know, so there 703 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:29,960 Speaker 6: is no we. When we look at it in religious terms, 704 00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:32,560 Speaker 6: it tends to be like become more fluid, as if 705 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:34,759 Speaker 6: you can either choose to be faithful or not to 706 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:38,399 Speaker 6: be faithful. Our world is literally built on faith. On faith. 707 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:40,880 Speaker 6: Then the second question about the point of praying, the 708 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:43,239 Speaker 6: point of praying, it's up to you. And this is 709 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:46,920 Speaker 6: now what I'm sharing is my personal view is not 710 00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,840 Speaker 6: based on any particular thing you're praying in order to 711 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,759 Speaker 6: connect with the thing that you are asking of God. 712 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,759 Speaker 6: There is nothing that God does not know, and there's 713 00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,080 Speaker 6: not some there's nothing that God is not aware of. 714 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:00,279 Speaker 6: What tends to happen is that we tend to be 715 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:05,239 Speaker 6: misaligned with the things that we that we desire, and 716 00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:09,799 Speaker 6: through faith, or rather through prayer and through fasting, all 717 00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:14,640 Speaker 6: those actions are basically intentioned on aligning ourselves with those things. 718 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,840 Speaker 6: But the reality of the situation, of the situation is 719 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,560 Speaker 6: that because we don't have a broader picture as to 720 00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:25,600 Speaker 6: if I pray for I want to become a radio presenter. 721 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,000 Speaker 6: I want to do that, But what if that means 722 00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:31,000 Speaker 6: Clement must lose his job for in order for me 723 00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:33,200 Speaker 6: to become open. We are not aware of, you know, 724 00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:35,560 Speaker 6: the domino effects of the things that we're asking for, 725 00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:38,360 Speaker 6: and that if you get this thing that you're actually 726 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:40,839 Speaker 6: asking for, this is the other consequences, Well, these are 727 00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,000 Speaker 6: the other repercussions of the thing that you're asking for. 728 00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:45,560 Speaker 6: Therefore it doesn't happen, And then you are going to 729 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:48,240 Speaker 6: say that, you know, my prayers were not answered. 730 00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:51,360 Speaker 5: Yeah for sum saying London, thank you so much. I 731 00:43:51,400 --> 00:43:53,399 Speaker 5: can't wait for our next chat, next one. 732 00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:54,480 Speaker 6: Thank you for making you so much