WEBVTT - Current Affairs: The BRICS Summit 2025: Has BRICS Achieved what it set out to do 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:05.000 For more about civility, go to Prime Media plus dot com. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:06.600 Welcome back to the show. 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:09.400 This is the Obrimsango Show and my name is Comaso 0:00:09.600 --> 0:00:12.319 Modissa Info bro O. Thank you so much for tuning in. 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:14.960 It is thirty three minutes past nine. Time for us 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:18.360 now to have our second conversation in our current Affairs feature. 0:00:18.840 --> 0:00:21.599 And I mean we we're going to be speaking about 0:00:21.600 --> 0:00:25.079 bricks and the President being at the Brick Summit in Rio, 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:28.319 but we cannot ignore what's just happened right now that 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:33.560 letter written to President Sonadrama Passa by US President Donald Trump. 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:38.199 They're basically slapping South Africa with the thirty percent tariff 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:42.360 on any and all South African goods sent into the 0:00:42.479 --> 0:00:46.960 United States. And I'm really excited to have Deale with 0:00:47.040 --> 0:00:48.960 us this evening to speak to us on this because 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:50.920 he is a political economist. 0:00:51.080 --> 0:00:55.720 Dale McKinley, welcome to the show. Good evening, Thank you. 0:00:55.680 --> 0:00:57.600 So much for having me. Good evening to the listeners 0:00:57.640 --> 0:00:58.080 as well. 0:00:58.240 --> 0:01:00.360 I've never been happier that we scheduled you to come 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:02.440 speak to us on the show at this time, because 0:01:02.560 --> 0:01:04.759 when we said we were gonna have you on the show, 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:07.680 we didn't know about these these tariffs, and now we've 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:10.040 got this announcement, breaking news from the US. 0:01:10.319 --> 0:01:15.679 What's just happened, Well, what's just happened is Trump Trump. 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:18.640 This is this is the politics of Donald Trump, which 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:22.039 is he makes decisions based upon his whims when he 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:24.559 wakes up in the morning, and you know. 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:26.240 If he feels a particular way. 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:28.200 I mean, look, the signs were there, we know for 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:32.880 months now, given you know, his his initial tariff announcements 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:36.399 a few months back, and then backing off, and and 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:39.319 then the meeting with the presidents and so forth. But 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:41.720 I think it was the writing was always on the 0:01:41.760 --> 0:01:44.360 wall that was going to the question was how much? 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:47.160 And I think what he what happened was in the 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:50.040 Brick Summit, which we were obviously going to talk about. 0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:52.680 You know, there was a there was a statement that 0:01:52.800 --> 0:01:56.120 was made yesterday by the US administration saying, you know 0:01:56.200 --> 0:01:59.919 those people who were wanting to sort of de dollar 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:01.559 and go the bricks way, well. 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:02.720 We're going to punish you even more. 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:03.560 Yeah. 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:05.840 And given that South Africa is in the bricks sort 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:07.880 of quartet, well then yeah, here we are. 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:11.519 And then instead of ten percent or twenty, it's thirty. 0:02:12.120 --> 0:02:16.840 Sure, you say that we were thinking how much right 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:17.960 we knew this was going to happen? 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:20.080 I mean, was thirty percent ever on the cards? 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:22.680 Well, I mean if you look at some of the 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:26.640 other numbers that Trump was throwing around initially, remember it 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:28.400 was one hundred there were one hundred and ten percent 0:02:28.760 --> 0:02:32.440 tasks on Vietnam, for example, or there was going to 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:36.160 be I mean the Eswatini in swat the textiles. 0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:38.760 And so that's the thing is that. 0:02:38.880 --> 0:02:42.040 And I was just saying this on another analysis about 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:46.440 Trump's politics, which is that his politics is chaotic, it's 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:50.400 it's unpredictable, it's it's whims and so you never know 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:53.160 what's going to happen. So yes, it could have been 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:55.120 anything from ten percent to eighty percent. 0:02:55.880 --> 0:02:59.760 Sure, And I mean, now we hear this thirty percent 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:02.519 if you've had sight of the letter, but I read 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:05.600 it a little earlier, And okay, I'm going to read 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:07.920 your paragraph here because this sounds like a threat to me. 0:03:09.639 --> 0:03:12.959 The letter stants by detailing reasons why he thinks this 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:15.240 this tariff is okay. He says, the relationship has been 0:03:15.280 --> 0:03:18.120 far from a reciprocal and they've had to do. 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:20.399 This, and then he says, if for any. 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:23.239 Reason you decide to raise your tariffs, then whatever the 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:26.079 number you choose to raise them by will be added 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:29.280 onto the thirty percent that we charge. Please understand that 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:32.280 these tariffs are necessary to correct the many years of 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:36.360 South Africa's tariff and non tariff policies and trade barriers. 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:38.680 I mean, if there ever was a threat that that sounds, 0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:40.800 I could know absolutely. 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:44.560 I mean, and that's again, that's Donald Trump's politics. I mean, 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:47.640 you remember he started off as administration by threatening to 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:52.360 annex Canada, by threatening to buy ice, you know, Greenland, 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:56.400 by threatening Panama by that's his that's his politics. 0:03:56.400 --> 0:03:57.560 He threats. He's a bully. 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:02.160 And if and if you remember when he announced his tariffs, 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:04.839 if you remember that ceremony in front of the White 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:07.800 House where he had this you know, poster that he 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:10.520 was showing in all the different countries including some island 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:14.160 in the South Pacific that nobody lives on, that they 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:18.080 were going to put tariffs on. It's there's no rationality, 0:04:18.120 --> 0:04:21.680 there's no real economic rationality to what he does. It's 0:04:21.720 --> 0:04:25.840 about transactional politics and he wants to be in charge. 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:29.240 So he feels as though you know, he knows South 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:31.719 Africa is not economically that strong. At the moment, he 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:34.960 knows we're in a difficult situation, so he's taking advantage 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:35.159 of it. 0:04:35.200 --> 0:04:36.039 And that's what bullies do. 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:43.200 What would the ideal response from President Somos be, Well. 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:46.640 That's a difficult question because it's it's a very tricky terrain. 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:49.359 On the one level, you know, at a at a 0:04:49.400 --> 0:04:53.719 sort of rational moral should we say and sovereign level, 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:57.000 you want to say, well, you want to basically say, listen, 0:04:57.080 --> 0:04:59.080 we can't be dictated to our member. You know. The 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:02.440 first response of our president was that we're not going 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:04.800 to be pushed around, and I think many South Africans 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:09.160 UH sort of supported that. But the reality is is 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:11.680 that we live in a world where we don't call 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:16.960 the shots, where we're dependent quite substantially on our exports, 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:21.400 where the United States is an important market for several 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:24.440 sectors of our economy, and these are things we can't 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:27.280 wish away and be naive about. So I think that 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:29.960 it's in some ways, I think you're what you're going 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:31.479 to get is you're going to get some people calling 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:33.760 for him to take a very strong stand and basically 0:05:33.800 --> 0:05:37.520 to tell you know, Trump to back off and we're 0:05:37.520 --> 0:05:39.719 not going to be a threaten, threatened and intimidated, and 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:43.920 that could be politically quite popular, but economically he's going 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:47.400 to have to, I think, sort of find a middle 0:05:47.440 --> 0:05:49.280 way in some ways. He's going to have to one, 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:52.280 at one level defend the sovereignty of the country and 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:55.400 basically make those kinds of political points, but the other end, 0:05:55.480 --> 0:06:00.360 basically seek a diplomatic solution and seek a sense of saying, 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:04.120 can we you know, we can negotiate these things, or 0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:07.719 you know, trying to persuade the more should we say, 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:10.880 rational minds within the Trump administration, of which there are 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:13.840 very few, but there are some that you know, some 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:15.800 of those some of these things are not going to 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:19.200 benefit the United States either, And you know that could 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:22.000 work because three four months down the road, if things 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:24.080 don't work out for Trump and things aren't going well, 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:26.360 he can change his mind and he can reverse these things. 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:28.480 That's what he does. So I think it's a middle 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:31.320 road in some ways. But I think a strong political 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:34.160 message is also necessary because if we don't, then we're 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:36.800 going to be seen to be simply just how towing 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:37.400 to the bully. 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:42.080 And I mean, I'm sure it's no coincidence that this 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:45.440 is happening while there's a brick summit in Brazil. 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:48.119 Yes, clearly. 0:06:48.760 --> 0:06:50.320 I mean it's tearly calculation. 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:53.360 It is, and I think and that's why I mentioned that. 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:56.279 The fact that you know, just the other day, just yesterday, 0:06:56.320 --> 0:06:59.040 when the administration was already making sounds, you know, they 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:02.480 they saw this brick things and what they're worried about 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:05.679 if the United States is and Trump is worried about anything. 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:07.240 You know, if you take. 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:11.200 The combined sort of if you're talking about GDP production 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:15.760 and population everything of bricks, it outnumbers the G seven 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:19.480 UH in that case in terms of economic potential and 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:21.720 and and productivity and exports. 0:07:21.720 --> 0:07:24.160 So this is not some small thing. 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:27.040 These And that's the thing is that he's trying to 0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:29.480 ward off. I think he's trying to sort of be 0:07:29.640 --> 0:07:32.680 you know, send these messages and warn people that if 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:35.400 they don't follow him, if they don't pay attention to this, 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:37.520 then he's going to you know, up the tasks more. 0:07:37.560 --> 0:07:39.560 He's going to do this or cut them off or whatever. 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:43.000 But also remember that he doesn't He's not going to 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:45.920 have it his own way all the time. China's no 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:50.840 small economy. China is almost rivaling the United States, India 0:07:51.360 --> 0:07:53.800 is also coming up and and these kinds of so 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:56.600 he's going to have to is this is what you 0:07:56.640 --> 0:07:57.400 see Trump doing. 0:07:57.480 --> 0:07:59.640 He makes these announcements and then he goes for buy 0:07:59.720 --> 0:08:00.640 that deals. 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:03.000 So he goes to the country and he starts making 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:06.480 separate deals with you know, those particular countries. 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:08.280 And I think that's what you're also going to see. 0:08:08.320 --> 0:08:11.000 So he's going to try to divide bricks as well 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:14.400 and divide according to different kinds of agreements as opposed 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:16.080 to treating it as a block as well. 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:20.560 And speaking of China, Cheting Ping has decided to skip 0:08:20.600 --> 0:08:23.400 the summit. I mean, can we read anything into this. 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:24.600 There's been a lot of speculation. 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:30.320 Well, I think my I'm convinced by probably the explanation 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:31.120 that says that. 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:33.480 For him, I think for two reasons. 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:37.559 One is that he's got a lot on his own hands, 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:40.560 and I don't think he's He's been to Brazil several times, 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:44.120 he did come to the previous bricks thing, so he's 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:46.760 I don't think he saw it as as that fundamental. 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:50.600 But I think the main reason is because basically Lula 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:54.080 and the President of Brazil decided that he was going 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:58.400 to sort of have a contemporaneous state visit from India 0:08:58.440 --> 0:09:02.520 and from MODI think she was probably worried about being 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:07.000 overshadowed by India and that sense, and that India and 0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:09.520 China don't have the closest to They might be in 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:13.680 bricks together if it does. Let's remember that the war, 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:17.119 the very brief war between India and Pakistan over Kashmir. 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:22.720 The Chinese were supporting Pakistan and we're and they've already 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:25.560 had classes with India on their own borders. So it's 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:28.280 a very complicated situation. I think she sort of looked 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:30.840 at it and said, better to avoid this right now, 0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:33.160 I'll send you know, I'll send the sort of subordinates. 0:09:33.720 --> 0:09:35.640 He sees it as important, but I don't think he 0:09:35.720 --> 0:09:36.880 wanted to be outdone. 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:40.440 Should we say, mm and and and someone else? 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:45.240 A certain lad Vladimir Putin also not attending all. 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:47.720 He isn't any but he's just not physically there. Do 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:48.240 you get the. 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:51.480 Sense that his hands and his feet are tied by 0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:53.280 him not not being able to move around. 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:57.320 Well, he's he's you know, he's made his own bed 0:09:57.640 --> 0:09:59.640 and now he's got to sleep in it, which is 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:03.960 you know, I think anytime that Vladimir Putin considers going 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:07.880 anywhere outside of a very close trusted ally he thinks 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:10.240 he's going to possibly be in big trouble, and he is. 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:13.360 So he's got to be very It's not simply just 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:18.199 a political decision or otherwise. It's something it's his personal, uh, 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:21.840 you know, safety, His personal security might be compromised. But 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:25.200 I think beyond that, he's also got his hands full, 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:28.840 you know, in the context while we you know, while 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:31.920 we get the official version of you know, the Russia 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:35.280 Ukraine War and everything else, the Russian economy is not 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:36.959 doing particularly well. 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:39.360 There's a lot. 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:42.160 Of descent within Russia, which is basically his response is 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:45.040 to crush everything and to crush that descent. That's not 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:48.080 a sustainable strategy over the long term. So I think 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:50.720 Putin has has a lot more hot potatoes on his 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:53.320 hands than bricks. And if you notice, he's sent his 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:56.920 you know, unfairly senior officials that spoke out. But yes, 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:59.520 I think he's a prisoner of his own making. 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:04.319 Yeah, that's what it seems like to me. All right. 0:11:04.400 --> 0:11:07.600 So we had been looking, we'd heard the threat from 0:11:07.640 --> 0:11:11.000 Trump about the tariffs, the additional tariffs. Now we've got 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:14.400 the breaking news that dropped a short while ago. Do 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:17.360 you get the sense, Deale, that the threat of these 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:20.520 tariffs will be a deterrent to any people or any 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:23.880 countries that want to do business with the brigs block. 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:27.520 I do know that's the intention, But do you think 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:28.720 it will act as a deterrent. 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:32.480 I think it could, in some circumstances act as a 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:35.000 sort of a somewhat of a barrier or, as you mentioned, 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:38.120 a deterrent, But I don't think it's going to be sustainable. 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:41.200 And the reason why I say that is because the 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:45.480 one thing about global trade is is that if the 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:48.200 post World War two period has taught us anything is 0:11:48.280 --> 0:11:52.800 that it does not respect ideological boundaries. In other words, 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:55.160 I mean, even when there was the Cold War, you know, 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:59.080 and that was probably the biggest sort of twenty thirty 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:01.080 years of camps, you know, and so you know, you 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:02.959 didn't deal with the Soviet Union if you were in 0:12:03.000 --> 0:12:05.080 the West, and so forth and so on, and yet 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:08.600 they're always found ways. So I think, you know, countries 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:11.360 will trade where there it's the it's in their benefit 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:13.760 if they think the better deal to go with the 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:17.200 United States, and Trump can't just issue threats he's got 0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:19.960 to offer something. So that's the other side. There's two 0:12:20.000 --> 0:12:22.840 sides to trade. You can't just threaten and threaten and threaten, 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:25.160 because what is he going to do Invade every country 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:27.360 he's going to cut off? I mean, this is again 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:30.000 not a sustainable strategy and he knows this. A lot 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:32.920 of it is bluff, but he's got to offer it. 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:35.880 So what is Trump offering? What is Trump offering these countries? 0:12:35.920 --> 0:12:39.079 If he says, don't deal with China, don't deal with India, 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:41.960 well what can the United States offer you? And with 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:45.840 that side of it is very thin. So for right now, yes, 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:49.120 people might be sort of thinking twice about doing something, 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:52.040 But in the longer term, the threats are not going 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:55.439 to hold water, I don't think, because economics will triumph 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:57.160 over politics in that sense. 0:12:57.400 --> 0:12:57.959 Yeah. 0:12:58.120 --> 0:13:01.240 And do you get the sense that that I mean, 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:04.160 with Trump really seeming like he's panicking. Yeah, it seems 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:06.640 like a move of panic at least to me. Do 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:09.120 you get the sense that bricks is now achieving exactly 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:11.160 what it was meant to be to do you know 0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:14.840 the almost challenging Western dominance? 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:18.640 Well, I'm not so sure that it's it's at that 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:22.200 point the yet because bricks is a very very how 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:26.360 should we say, complicated partnership, and especially now that all 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:28.640 these different countries have been brought on board as sort 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:33.480 of secondary members, it's got a serious serious issues around. 0:13:33.480 --> 0:13:36.480 So it's it talks a good game in many cases, 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:37.880 So let's talk let's say. 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:41.479 For example, de doollarization and the currency. 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:43.600 And the Development Bank. Now they are playing a particular 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:49.000 kind of role, but China and India and Russia in 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:53.480 this case also have some very very serious deficits and 0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:56.200 you know, other countries. If you want to be a 0:13:56.440 --> 0:13:59.880 counterweight to what you're saying is the Western you know, dominance, 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:02.480 well then you've got to offer countries things that are 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:06.079 going to be better. And that means not only economically 0:14:06.120 --> 0:14:10.280 but also politically. A dictatorship is not a sustainable strategy 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:13.360 politically for a long period of time, smashing your people 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:17.520 and crushing your people and basically jailing any dissenters and 0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:20.640 simply saying that economics all counts, that's not a sustainable 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:24.600 strategy either. So bricks has got to grapple, and different 0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:26.640 countries of the Bricks have got to grapple with more 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:29.480 than just saying we want to be an economic counterweight 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:31.400 to the United States and to the West and the 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:34.960 G seven. They've got to be a developmental counterweight, and 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:39.280 that means politics, economics, and social side of things. And 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:40.800 they're far from doing that yet. 0:14:41.720 --> 0:14:44.280 And what's keeping them from attaining that isn't their own 0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:48.040 personal internal politics. We know what the addition of the 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:51.080 bricks plus members that last year. Things haven't always been rosy. 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:54.720 No, I mean, let's again, let's be honest about this. 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:57.560 In many cases, while we talk, there's a good game 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:03.840 talking multilateralism, multilateralism, but oftentimes the decisions that India makes, 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:07.520 the decisions that Russia makes, are decisions based upon their 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:10.320 own interest what they consider to be at least the 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:13.160 ruling governments or class there are considered to be in 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:16.640 their national interest, not in the interests Russia. Is not 0:15:16.680 --> 0:15:19.840 making decisions necessarily based upon what they think is good 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:23.360 for Russia and China and India and vice versa. So 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:27.120 this is the thing about nationalism, is that uh and 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:31.400 and national interests is that oftentimes it trumps and that 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:35.720 the pun is intended. Uh. You know, the the the side, 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:38.280 the other side of things, which is of course, this 0:15:38.680 --> 0:15:43.960 desire to offer a sort of international multilateral alternative. And 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:47.280 so I think bricks is is very incipient. It's there's 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:49.400 so many contradictions. And let me just give you one 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:52.520 from our own continent where we have a situation where 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:57.840 what members African members now who are joining BRICKS new countries, uh, 0:15:58.160 --> 0:16:02.120 you know, Uganda, Ethiopia, from other kinds of countries there 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:05.680 are as oftentimes even at war with each other, you know, 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:09.520 over trade and other kinds of things. So this is 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:12.000 the problem is you can be part of it, just 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:13.840 like the United Nations. You can be part of an 0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:17.000 international body, but that doesn't mean that it deals with 0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:19.760 all of the different local and national problems that you 0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:22.160 experience and in our case on our continent either. 0:16:23.000 --> 0:16:26.480 And i'd imagine some of the themes of the summit 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:28.760 are informed by those internal squbbles. 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:33.280 No, absolutely, And just I was reading through the final statement, 0:16:33.280 --> 0:16:35.760 which had one hundred and forty different points to it. 0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:39.240 I think it was covering everything under the sun. And 0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:40.440 if you go. 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:42.720 Through all of that, what they're trying to do is 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:45.600 they're trying to create and understandably so a picture of 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:48.200 sort of you know, we're paying attention to everything from 0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:52.480 climate change to it to artificial intelligence, to you know, 0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:58.080 monetary policy, to currency speculations, all sorts of other kinds 0:16:58.080 --> 0:16:58.520 of things. 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:01.359 But as as you mentioned. 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:06.879 In the national context, the interests of those who control 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:10.240 the national economies, let's say South African corporate capital, might 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:13.880 not be what's in the interests of other countries corporate 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:17.680 capital either, and they're actually competitors. And so this we're 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:20.320 at an early early stage, I think within the bricks 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:24.240 sort of developmental game, should we say, where they're trying 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:26.720 to present themselves as something, but they're working out all 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:30.680 the different modalities, and I don't think that we're going 0:17:30.720 --> 0:17:33.960 to see in the next while that coming together in 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:36.080 any kind of sort of way where we can say 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:40.240 bricks rivals some of the other international institutions or is 0:17:40.680 --> 0:17:43.280 able is going to be able to present a real alternative. 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:45.919 I think what you're going to see in the shorter 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:49.359 term is you're going to see a lot more contradictions 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:52.840 playing themselves out with the attempts to try to look 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:55.520 at the bigger picture things and for China and India 0:17:55.560 --> 0:17:57.679 in particular to play the leading role in doing so. 0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:04.240 Yeah, you know, Africans are they've were responding to the 0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:06.600 president being at the Brick Summit in very interesting ways. 0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:08.880 I've been going through social media, Dale, and I've been 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:12.320 reading what people are saying under the pictures that the 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:14.640 president will post. You know, if you're on social media 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:17.399 platform X and then you'll see the president. They'll be 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:20.560 duck snippets of him there, and you know, his participation 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:23.920 being posted here and there, and under one particular post yesterday, 0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:28.080 he of course it was about his participation at the summit. 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:31.000 And so the Africans were under the comments they're saying, hey, 0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:34.760 the country is burning. We've got him Kanazi here making 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:38.800 these allegations, you know, against your minister. Come back. We 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:41.080 don't care about what you're doing. The things are more 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:44.800 important here. And I found that to be really interesting, Dale, 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:47.199 because I think the sense now that's the Africans are 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:50.520 having is the country is really going through a lot here. 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:53.119 The problems are here more than anywhere else. 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:57.760 Yes, you're gonna I certainly think that that is true. 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:01.680 You know, it's it's in many cases, you know, political 0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:05.679 leaders often everywhere, in order to get away from domestic problems, 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:09.679 they travel, they go internationally and the attend conferences and 0:19:09.240 --> 0:19:12.639 they want to be on that platform. So one, I 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:15.879 think the critique is well taken in that context. But 0:19:16.080 --> 0:19:19.160 at the same time, there are many other South Africans 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:23.920 that do understand that our domestic problems are linked to international. 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:24.160 Issues as well. 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:27.200 So yes, while we definitely, I mean the issues within 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:30.359 SAPs are our problems, there are clearly ones that have 0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:32.639 to be sorted out and they're concerned to every single 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:34.399 South African as they should be, and they should be 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:38.040 of serious being taken very very seriously. On the other hand, 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:42.680 those issues around for example, corruption or let's say criminal 0:19:42.680 --> 0:19:46.680 syndicates that are being raised are international as well. Our 0:19:46.720 --> 0:19:51.359 borders are the the ports, the issues of how we 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:57.720 have become a transit for international drug trades and syndicates 0:19:57.760 --> 0:20:01.439 as well. So these things are not necessarily disconnected. But 0:20:01.520 --> 0:20:05.360 it's understood that oftentimes when we're having very serious problems. 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:08.280 I mean, here in my own city of Johannesburg, we've 0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:11.040 been with that water for the last week in my 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:13.960 neighborhood because of things, and so these are very real, 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:17.760 real issues that people should take seriously. But once again, 0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:20.960 I think most of us do understand that if we're 0:20:21.000 --> 0:20:24.320 going to deal with our domestic problems in the longer term. 0:20:24.440 --> 0:20:26.880 We also have to deal with our international ones too. 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:29.800 Yeah, perhaps that may be an opportunity for the President 0:20:30.040 --> 0:20:32.240 to have a conversation or two with these counterparts there 0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:35.400 from Brazil. Maybe after the allegations that we're making yesterday 0:20:35.840 --> 0:20:39.960 by Mukuanasi, I think, you know, Dale to speak to 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:43.359 the South African out there that may be wondering is 0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:46.320 this worth it? I mean, at this stage, it seems 0:20:46.359 --> 0:20:49.479 being part of this block from the announcement today from 0:20:49.520 --> 0:20:53.639