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Speaker 2: Welcome back to the show.
Speaker 1: This is the Obrimsango Show and my name is Comaso
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Speaker 1: It is thirty three minutes past nine. Time for us
Speaker 1: now to have our second conversation in our current Affairs feature.
Speaker 1: And I mean we we're going to be speaking about
Speaker 1: bricks and the President being at the Brick Summit in Rio,
Speaker 1: but we cannot ignore what's just happened right now that
Speaker 1: letter written to President Sonadrama Passa by US President Donald Trump.
Speaker 1: They're basically slapping South Africa with the thirty percent tariff
Speaker 1: on any and all South African goods sent into the
Speaker 1: United States. And I'm really excited to have Deale with
Speaker 1: us this evening to speak to us on this because
Speaker 1: he is a political economist.
Speaker 2: Dale McKinley, welcome to the show. Good evening, Thank you.
Speaker 3: So much for having me. Good evening to the listeners
Speaker 3: as well.
Speaker 1: I've never been happier that we scheduled you to come
Speaker 1: speak to us on the show at this time, because
Speaker 1: when we said we were gonna have you on the show,
Speaker 1: we didn't know about these these tariffs, and now we've
Speaker 1: got this announcement, breaking news from the US.
Speaker 4: What's just happened, Well, what's just happened is Trump Trump.
Speaker 4: This is this is the politics of Donald Trump, which
Speaker 4: is he makes decisions based upon his whims when he
Speaker 4: wakes up in the morning, and you know.
Speaker 3: If he feels a particular way.
Speaker 4: I mean, look, the signs were there, we know for
Speaker 4: months now, given you know, his his initial tariff announcements
Speaker 4: a few months back, and then backing off, and and
Speaker 4: then the meeting with the presidents and so forth. But
Speaker 4: I think it was the writing was always on the
Speaker 4: wall that was going to the question was how much?
Speaker 4: And I think what he what happened was in the
Speaker 4: Brick Summit, which we were obviously going to talk about.
Speaker 4: You know, there was a there was a statement that
Speaker 4: was made yesterday by the US administration saying, you know
Speaker 4: those people who were wanting to sort of de dollar
Speaker 4: and go the bricks way, well.
Speaker 3: We're going to punish you even more.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And given that South Africa is in the bricks sort
Speaker 4: of quartet, well then yeah, here we are.
Speaker 3: And then instead of ten percent or twenty, it's thirty.
Speaker 1: Sure, you say that we were thinking how much right
Speaker 1: we knew this was going to happen?
Speaker 2: I mean, was thirty percent ever on the cards?
Speaker 4: Well, I mean if you look at some of the
Speaker 4: other numbers that Trump was throwing around initially, remember it
Speaker 4: was one hundred there were one hundred and ten percent
Speaker 4: tasks on Vietnam, for example, or there was going to
Speaker 4: be I mean the Eswatini in swat the textiles.
Speaker 3: And so that's the thing is that.
Speaker 4: And I was just saying this on another analysis about
Speaker 4: Trump's politics, which is that his politics is chaotic, it's
Speaker 4: it's unpredictable, it's it's whims and so you never know
Speaker 4: what's going to happen. So yes, it could have been
Speaker 4: anything from ten percent to eighty percent.
Speaker 1: Sure, And I mean, now we hear this thirty percent
Speaker 1: if you've had sight of the letter, but I read
Speaker 1: it a little earlier, And okay, I'm going to read
Speaker 1: your paragraph here because this sounds like a threat to me.
Speaker 1: The letter stants by detailing reasons why he thinks this
Speaker 1: this tariff is okay. He says, the relationship has been
Speaker 1: far from a reciprocal and they've had to do.
Speaker 2: This, and then he says, if for any.
Speaker 1: Reason you decide to raise your tariffs, then whatever the
Speaker 1: number you choose to raise them by will be added
Speaker 1: onto the thirty percent that we charge. Please understand that
Speaker 1: these tariffs are necessary to correct the many years of
Speaker 1: South Africa's tariff and non tariff policies and trade barriers.
Speaker 1: I mean, if there ever was a threat that that sounds,
Speaker 1: I could know absolutely.
Speaker 4: I mean, and that's again, that's Donald Trump's politics. I mean,
Speaker 4: you remember he started off as administration by threatening to
Speaker 4: annex Canada, by threatening to buy ice, you know, Greenland,
Speaker 4: by threatening Panama by that's his that's his politics.
Speaker 3: He threats. He's a bully.
Speaker 4: And if and if you remember when he announced his tariffs,
Speaker 4: if you remember that ceremony in front of the White
Speaker 4: House where he had this you know, poster that he
Speaker 4: was showing in all the different countries including some island
Speaker 4: in the South Pacific that nobody lives on, that they
Speaker 4: were going to put tariffs on. It's there's no rationality,
Speaker 4: there's no real economic rationality to what he does. It's
Speaker 4: about transactional politics and he wants to be in charge.
Speaker 4: So he feels as though you know, he knows South
Speaker 4: Africa is not economically that strong. At the moment, he
Speaker 4: knows we're in a difficult situation, so he's taking advantage
Speaker 4: of it.
Speaker 3: And that's what bullies do.
Speaker 1: What would the ideal response from President Somos be, Well.
Speaker 4: That's a difficult question because it's it's a very tricky terrain.
Speaker 4: On the one level, you know, at a at a
Speaker 4: sort of rational moral should we say and sovereign level,
Speaker 4: you want to say, well, you want to basically say, listen,
Speaker 4: we can't be dictated to our member. You know. The
Speaker 4: first response of our president was that we're not going
Speaker 4: to be pushed around, and I think many South Africans
Speaker 4: UH sort of supported that. But the reality is is
Speaker 4: that we live in a world where we don't call
Speaker 4: the shots, where we're dependent quite substantially on our exports,
Speaker 4: where the United States is an important market for several
Speaker 4: sectors of our economy, and these are things we can't
Speaker 4: wish away and be naive about. So I think that
Speaker 4: it's in some ways, I think you're what you're going
Speaker 4: to get is you're going to get some people calling
Speaker 4: for him to take a very strong stand and basically
Speaker 4: to tell you know, Trump to back off and we're
Speaker 4: not going to be a threaten, threatened and intimidated, and
Speaker 4: that could be politically quite popular, but economically he's going
Speaker 4: to have to, I think, sort of find a middle
Speaker 4: way in some ways. He's going to have to one,
Speaker 4: at one level defend the sovereignty of the country and
Speaker 4: basically make those kinds of political points, but the other end,
Speaker 4: basically seek a diplomatic solution and seek a sense of saying,
Speaker 4: can we you know, we can negotiate these things, or
Speaker 4: you know, trying to persuade the more should we say,
Speaker 4: rational minds within the Trump administration, of which there are
Speaker 4: very few, but there are some that you know, some
Speaker 4: of those some of these things are not going to
Speaker 4: benefit the United States either, And you know that could
Speaker 4: work because three four months down the road, if things
Speaker 4: don't work out for Trump and things aren't going well,
Speaker 4: he can change his mind and he can reverse these things.
Speaker 4: That's what he does. So I think it's a middle
Speaker 4: road in some ways. But I think a strong political
Speaker 4: message is also necessary because if we don't, then we're
Speaker 4: going to be seen to be simply just how towing
Speaker 4: to the bully.
Speaker 1: And I mean, I'm sure it's no coincidence that this
Speaker 1: is happening while there's a brick summit in Brazil.
Speaker 3: Yes, clearly.
Speaker 2: I mean it's tearly calculation.
Speaker 3: It is, and I think and that's why I mentioned that.
Speaker 4: The fact that you know, just the other day, just yesterday,
Speaker 4: when the administration was already making sounds, you know, they
Speaker 4: they saw this brick things and what they're worried about
Speaker 4: if the United States is and Trump is worried about anything.
Speaker 3: You know, if you take.
Speaker 4: The combined sort of if you're talking about GDP production
Speaker 4: and population everything of bricks, it outnumbers the G seven
Speaker 4: UH in that case in terms of economic potential and
Speaker 4: and and productivity and exports.
Speaker 3: So this is not some small thing.
Speaker 4: These And that's the thing is that he's trying to
Speaker 4: ward off. I think he's trying to sort of be
Speaker 4: you know, send these messages and warn people that if
Speaker 4: they don't follow him, if they don't pay attention to this,
Speaker 4: then he's going to you know, up the tasks more.
Speaker 4: He's going to do this or cut them off or whatever.
Speaker 4: But also remember that he doesn't He's not going to
Speaker 4: have it his own way all the time. China's no
Speaker 4: small economy. China is almost rivaling the United States, India
Speaker 4: is also coming up and and these kinds of so
Speaker 4: he's going to have to is this is what you
Speaker 4: see Trump doing.
Speaker 3: He makes these announcements and then he goes for buy
Speaker 3: that deals.
Speaker 4: So he goes to the country and he starts making
Speaker 4: separate deals with you know, those particular countries.
Speaker 3: And I think that's what you're also going to see.
Speaker 4: So he's going to try to divide bricks as well
Speaker 4: and divide according to different kinds of agreements as opposed
Speaker 4: to treating it as a block as well.
Speaker 1: And speaking of China, Cheting Ping has decided to skip
Speaker 1: the summit. I mean, can we read anything into this.
Speaker 1: There's been a lot of speculation.
Speaker 4: Well, I think my I'm convinced by probably the explanation
Speaker 4: that says that.
Speaker 3: For him, I think for two reasons.
Speaker 4: One is that he's got a lot on his own hands,
Speaker 4: and I don't think he's He's been to Brazil several times,
Speaker 4: he did come to the previous bricks thing, so he's
Speaker 4: I don't think he saw it as as that fundamental.
Speaker 4: But I think the main reason is because basically Lula
Speaker 4: and the President of Brazil decided that he was going
Speaker 4: to sort of have a contemporaneous state visit from India
Speaker 4: and from MODI think she was probably worried about being
Speaker 4: overshadowed by India and that sense, and that India and
Speaker 4: China don't have the closest to They might be in
Speaker 4: bricks together if it does. Let's remember that the war,
Speaker 4: the very brief war between India and Pakistan over Kashmir.
Speaker 4: The Chinese were supporting Pakistan and we're and they've already
Speaker 4: had classes with India on their own borders. So it's
Speaker 4: a very complicated situation. I think she sort of looked
Speaker 4: at it and said, better to avoid this right now,
Speaker 4: I'll send you know, I'll send the sort of subordinates.
Speaker 4: He sees it as important, but I don't think he
Speaker 4: wanted to be outdone.
Speaker 2: Should we say, mm and and and someone else?
Speaker 1: A certain lad Vladimir Putin also not attending all.
Speaker 2: He isn't any but he's just not physically there. Do
Speaker 2: you get the.
Speaker 1: Sense that his hands and his feet are tied by
Speaker 1: him not not being able to move around.
Speaker 4: Well, he's he's you know, he's made his own bed
Speaker 4: and now he's got to sleep in it, which is
Speaker 4: you know, I think anytime that Vladimir Putin considers going
Speaker 4: anywhere outside of a very close trusted ally he thinks
Speaker 4: he's going to possibly be in big trouble, and he is.
Speaker 4: So he's got to be very It's not simply just
Speaker 4: a political decision or otherwise. It's something it's his personal, uh,
Speaker 4: you know, safety, His personal security might be compromised. But
Speaker 4: I think beyond that, he's also got his hands full,
Speaker 4: you know, in the context while we you know, while
Speaker 4: we get the official version of you know, the Russia
Speaker 4: Ukraine War and everything else, the Russian economy is not
Speaker 4: doing particularly well.
Speaker 3: There's a lot.
Speaker 4: Of descent within Russia, which is basically his response is
Speaker 4: to crush everything and to crush that descent. That's not
Speaker 4: a sustainable strategy over the long term. So I think
Speaker 4: Putin has has a lot more hot potatoes on his
Speaker 4: hands than bricks. And if you notice, he's sent his
Speaker 4: you know, unfairly senior officials that spoke out. But yes,
Speaker 4: I think he's a prisoner of his own making.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what it seems like to me. All right.
Speaker 1: So we had been looking, we'd heard the threat from
Speaker 1: Trump about the tariffs, the additional tariffs. Now we've got
Speaker 1: the breaking news that dropped a short while ago. Do
Speaker 1: you get the sense, Deale, that the threat of these
Speaker 1: tariffs will be a deterrent to any people or any
Speaker 1: countries that want to do business with the brigs block.
Speaker 1: I do know that's the intention, But do you think
Speaker 1: it will act as a deterrent.
Speaker 4: I think it could, in some circumstances act as a
Speaker 4: sort of a somewhat of a barrier or, as you mentioned,
Speaker 4: a deterrent, But I don't think it's going to be sustainable.
Speaker 4: And the reason why I say that is because the
Speaker 4: one thing about global trade is is that if the
Speaker 4: post World War two period has taught us anything is
Speaker 4: that it does not respect ideological boundaries. In other words,
Speaker 4: I mean, even when there was the Cold War, you know,
Speaker 4: and that was probably the biggest sort of twenty thirty
Speaker 4: years of camps, you know, and so you know, you
Speaker 4: didn't deal with the Soviet Union if you were in
Speaker 4: the West, and so forth and so on, and yet
Speaker 4: they're always found ways. So I think, you know, countries
Speaker 4: will trade where there it's the it's in their benefit
Speaker 4: if they think the better deal to go with the
Speaker 4: United States, and Trump can't just issue threats he's got
Speaker 4: to offer something. So that's the other side. There's two
Speaker 4: sides to trade. You can't just threaten and threaten and threaten,
Speaker 4: because what is he going to do Invade every country
Speaker 4: he's going to cut off? I mean, this is again
Speaker 4: not a sustainable strategy and he knows this. A lot
Speaker 4: of it is bluff, but he's got to offer it.
Speaker 4: So what is Trump offering? What is Trump offering these countries?
Speaker 4: If he says, don't deal with China, don't deal with India,
Speaker 4: well what can the United States offer you? And with
Speaker 4: that side of it is very thin. So for right now, yes,
Speaker 4: people might be sort of thinking twice about doing something,
Speaker 4: But in the longer term, the threats are not going
Speaker 4: to hold water, I don't think, because economics will triumph
Speaker 4: over politics in that sense.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And do you get the sense that that I mean,
Speaker 1: with Trump really seeming like he's panicking. Yeah, it seems
Speaker 1: like a move of panic at least to me. Do
Speaker 1: you get the sense that bricks is now achieving exactly
Speaker 1: what it was meant to be to do you know
Speaker 1: the almost challenging Western dominance?
Speaker 4: Well, I'm not so sure that it's it's at that
Speaker 4: point the yet because bricks is a very very how
Speaker 4: should we say, complicated partnership, and especially now that all
Speaker 4: these different countries have been brought on board as sort
Speaker 4: of secondary members, it's got a serious serious issues around.
Speaker 4: So it's it talks a good game in many cases,
Speaker 4: So let's talk let's say.
Speaker 3: For example, de doollarization and the currency.
Speaker 4: And the Development Bank. Now they are playing a particular
Speaker 4: kind of role, but China and India and Russia in
Speaker 4: this case also have some very very serious deficits and
Speaker 4: you know, other countries. If you want to be a
Speaker 4: counterweight to what you're saying is the Western you know, dominance,
Speaker 4: well then you've got to offer countries things that are
Speaker 4: going to be better. And that means not only economically
Speaker 4: but also politically. A dictatorship is not a sustainable strategy
Speaker 4: politically for a long period of time, smashing your people
Speaker 4: and crushing your people and basically jailing any dissenters and
Speaker 4: simply saying that economics all counts, that's not a sustainable
Speaker 4: strategy either. So bricks has got to grapple, and different
Speaker 4: countries of the Bricks have got to grapple with more
Speaker 4: than just saying we want to be an economic counterweight
Speaker 4: to the United States and to the West and the
Speaker 4: G seven. They've got to be a developmental counterweight, and
Speaker 4: that means politics, economics, and social side of things. And
Speaker 4: they're far from doing that yet.
Speaker 1: And what's keeping them from attaining that isn't their own
Speaker 1: personal internal politics. We know what the addition of the
Speaker 1: bricks plus members that last year. Things haven't always been rosy.
Speaker 3: No, I mean, let's again, let's be honest about this.
Speaker 4: In many cases, while we talk, there's a good game
Speaker 4: talking multilateralism, multilateralism, but oftentimes the decisions that India makes,
Speaker 4: the decisions that Russia makes, are decisions based upon their
Speaker 4: own interest what they consider to be at least the
Speaker 4: ruling governments or class there are considered to be in
Speaker 4: their national interest, not in the interests Russia. Is not
Speaker 4: making decisions necessarily based upon what they think is good
Speaker 4: for Russia and China and India and vice versa. So
Speaker 4: this is the thing about nationalism, is that uh and
Speaker 4: and national interests is that oftentimes it trumps and that
Speaker 4: the pun is intended. Uh. You know, the the the side,
Speaker 4: the other side of things, which is of course, this
Speaker 4: desire to offer a sort of international multilateral alternative. And
Speaker 4: so I think bricks is is very incipient. It's there's
Speaker 4: so many contradictions. And let me just give you one
Speaker 4: from our own continent where we have a situation where
Speaker 4: what members African members now who are joining BRICKS new countries, uh,
Speaker 4: you know, Uganda, Ethiopia, from other kinds of countries there
Speaker 4: are as oftentimes even at war with each other, you know,
Speaker 4: over trade and other kinds of things. So this is
Speaker 4: the problem is you can be part of it, just
Speaker 4: like the United Nations. You can be part of an
Speaker 4: international body, but that doesn't mean that it deals with
Speaker 4: all of the different local and national problems that you
Speaker 4: experience and in our case on our continent either.
Speaker 1: And i'd imagine some of the themes of the summit
Speaker 1: are informed by those internal squbbles.
Speaker 4: No, absolutely, And just I was reading through the final statement,
Speaker 4: which had one hundred and forty different points to it.
Speaker 3: I think it was covering everything under the sun. And
Speaker 3: if you go.
Speaker 4: Through all of that, what they're trying to do is
Speaker 4: they're trying to create and understandably so a picture of
Speaker 4: sort of you know, we're paying attention to everything from
Speaker 4: climate change to it to artificial intelligence, to you know,
Speaker 4: monetary policy, to currency speculations, all sorts of other kinds
Speaker 4: of things.
Speaker 3: But as as you mentioned.
Speaker 4: In the national context, the interests of those who control
Speaker 4: the national economies, let's say South African corporate capital, might
Speaker 4: not be what's in the interests of other countries corporate
Speaker 4: capital either, and they're actually competitors. And so this we're
Speaker 4: at an early early stage, I think within the bricks
Speaker 4: sort of developmental game, should we say, where they're trying
Speaker 4: to present themselves as something, but they're working out all
Speaker 4: the different modalities, and I don't think that we're going
Speaker 4: to see in the next while that coming together in
Speaker 4: any kind of sort of way where we can say
Speaker 4: bricks rivals some of the other international institutions or is
Speaker 4: able is going to be able to present a real alternative.
Speaker 4: I think what you're going to see in the shorter
Speaker 4: term is you're going to see a lot more contradictions
Speaker 4: playing themselves out with the attempts to try to look
Speaker 4: at the bigger picture things and for China and India
Speaker 4: in particular to play the leading role in doing so.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, Africans are they've were responding to the
Speaker 1: president being at the Brick Summit in very interesting ways.
Speaker 1: I've been going through social media, Dale, and I've been
Speaker 1: reading what people are saying under the pictures that the
Speaker 1: president will post. You know, if you're on social media
Speaker 1: platform X and then you'll see the president. They'll be
Speaker 1: duck snippets of him there, and you know, his participation
Speaker 1: being posted here and there, and under one particular post yesterday,
Speaker 1: he of course it was about his participation at the summit.
Speaker 1: And so the Africans were under the comments they're saying, hey,
Speaker 1: the country is burning. We've got him Kanazi here making
Speaker 1: these allegations, you know, against your minister. Come back. We
Speaker 1: don't care about what you're doing. The things are more
Speaker 1: important here. And I found that to be really interesting, Dale,
Speaker 1: because I think the sense now that's the Africans are
Speaker 1: having is the country is really going through a lot here.
Speaker 1: The problems are here more than anywhere else.
Speaker 4: Yes, you're gonna I certainly think that that is true.
Speaker 4: You know, it's it's in many cases, you know, political
Speaker 4: leaders often everywhere, in order to get away from domestic problems,
Speaker 4: they travel, they go internationally and the attend conferences and
Speaker 4: they want to be on that platform. So one, I
Speaker 4: think the critique is well taken in that context. But
Speaker 4: at the same time, there are many other South Africans
Speaker 4: that do understand that our domestic problems are linked to international.
Speaker 3: Issues as well.
Speaker 4: So yes, while we definitely, I mean the issues within
Speaker 4: SAPs are our problems, there are clearly ones that have
Speaker 4: to be sorted out and they're concerned to every single
Speaker 4: South African as they should be, and they should be
Speaker 4: of serious being taken very very seriously. On the other hand,
Speaker 4: those issues around for example, corruption or let's say criminal
Speaker 4: syndicates that are being raised are international as well. Our
Speaker 4: borders are the the ports, the issues of how we
Speaker 4: have become a transit for international drug trades and syndicates
Speaker 4: as well. So these things are not necessarily disconnected. But
Speaker 4: it's understood that oftentimes when we're having very serious problems.
Speaker 4: I mean, here in my own city of Johannesburg, we've
Speaker 4: been with that water for the last week in my
Speaker 4: neighborhood because of things, and so these are very real,
Speaker 4: real issues that people should take seriously. But once again,
Speaker 4: I think most of us do understand that if we're
Speaker 4: going to deal with our domestic problems in the longer term.
Speaker 4: We also have to deal with our international ones too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, perhaps that may be an opportunity for the President
Speaker 1: to have a conversation or two with these counterparts there
Speaker 1: from Brazil. Maybe after the allegations that we're making yesterday
Speaker 1: by Mukuanasi, I think, you know, Dale to speak to
Speaker 1: the South African out there that may be wondering is
Speaker 1: this worth it? I mean, at this stage, it seems
Speaker 1: being part of this block from the announcement today from
Speaker 1: the US may be costing us, but other rewards that
Speaker 1: we are reaping from being part of bricks worth it.
Speaker 3: Look, that's a difficult question answer.
Speaker 4: I think it's a bit premature to make a real
Speaker 4: definitive answer to that. All I can say is this.
Speaker 4: I can say that, you know, South Africa is if
Speaker 4: we pivot towards let's say the East a bit more,
Speaker 4: as we have been doing in some ways economically with
Speaker 4: China and otherwise, then you've got to make sure that
Speaker 4: that is also in your own interest. So in other words,
Speaker 4: you don't want to swap one bully for another.
Speaker 3: You don't want to.
Speaker 4: Swap one you know, saying okay, well, if we get
Speaker 4: rid of the United States, and that's where you know,
Speaker 4: we were moving towards China, where you're experiencing some of
Speaker 4: the same kinds of things. So I think it's going
Speaker 4: to have to be a much more nuanced, much more
Speaker 4: sophisticated kind of policy. And this is what we've been
Speaker 4: crying out for in South Africa, both domestically and internationally,
Speaker 4: is we need to try our own way, and that
Speaker 4: means sometimes you have different kinds of friends. You don't
Speaker 4: have to put all your eggs in one basket, you
Speaker 4: don't have to sort of say that you're with that
Speaker 4: in order to be able to spite the other person.
Speaker 4: Our world is is truly, you know, interdependent in many ways,
Speaker 4: and I think South Africa is going to We do
Speaker 4: have an important role to play, even if a minor
Speaker 4: one relative to some of the larger economies.
Speaker 3: And the political powers, but it is an important one nonetheless.
Speaker 4: And I think if our political leadership in our country
Speaker 4: is going to be serious about traveling and finding that path,
Speaker 4: we're going to have to take a little bit from
Speaker 4: every aspect. So, yes, bricks can be useful in some
Speaker 4: particular aspects and trade, but also relationships with Europe and
Speaker 4: the United States are also important as they are within
Speaker 4: our own regional economies, let's not forget our own continent,
Speaker 4: in our own regional trade blocks and other things. So
Speaker 4: these are presenting us with opportunities. The question is will
Speaker 4: we grasp them or not?
Speaker 2: And I think a.
Speaker 1: Final one from me Dale, I mean, the summit is
Speaker 1: over and the president must come back to the country.
Speaker 2: Now back to South Africa.
Speaker 1: Now do you believe that the summit was a successful
Speaker 1: one in Rio?
Speaker 3: I don't think you could call it a success.
Speaker 4: I mean the fact that it was held, in the
Speaker 4: fact that you didn't you see any major sort of
Speaker 4: you know, blow ups or anything. I guess in that
Speaker 4: sense of success. But I think success to be measured.
Speaker 4: And this is the reason why these summits oftentimes are
Speaker 4: really not practically oriented.
Speaker 3: They're about appearance.
Speaker 4: They're about presenting united front there, about big long statements
Speaker 4: and saying everybody is on board. But it's going to
Speaker 4: be what happens afterwards. All these task teams, all these committees,
Speaker 4: all these things that they're going to dive deep into
Speaker 4: into each of the sectors. That's going to make, you know,
Speaker 4: basically going to determine whether or not this summit or
Speaker 4: the next one I mean yearly summits. You can't expect
Speaker 4: a summit to really produce anything by itself, but if
Speaker 4: the summits.
Speaker 3: Whether this one or future ones.
Speaker 4: Can basically begin to lay foundations that are going to
Speaker 4: benefit us economically and benefit us in other ways, not
Speaker 4: just us, but our neighbors as well. And let's remember
Speaker 4: that we are not an island, and so when we
Speaker 4: talk about South Africa, we're also talking about our neighbors.
Speaker 4: And if our neighbors are in trouble, then we're in
Speaker 4: trouble as we all, as we clearly have been experiencing.
Speaker 4: So in that context, I think it's too early to say,
Speaker 4: but let's put it this way. Trump has made it
Speaker 4: a bit easier for the bricks to come together and
Speaker 4: to at least make the.
Speaker 3: Appearance of a degree of unity.
Speaker 4: The proof is going to be in the way in
Speaker 4: which that unity is practicalized going forward.
Speaker 1: Though, Dale McKinley, thank you so much for your insights.
Speaker 2: I really appreciate the conversation we've.
Speaker 3: Had come What's has been my pleasure. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: All right, that was Dale.
Speaker 1: It was Dale McKinley and the Independent Economist helping us
Speaker 1: make sense of the Bricks Summit twenty twenty five. He's
Speaker 1: also been excellent in his analysis on the latest decision
Speaker 1: breaking news coming out from the United States, those thirty
Speaker 1: percent tariffs on all South African product