Speaker 1: Lunch with Pippa Hudson, and now Consumer Talk featuring Wendy Nola.
Speaker 2: Wendy with us in studio today for a conversation that
Speaker 2: is going to be primarily focused on the scourge of
Speaker 2: baby wipes that end up in our stormwater systems as
Speaker 2: we interrogate claims of biodegradeability. So welcome and Wendy looking
Speaker 2: forward to that. But first you've got a very happy
Speaker 2: update for us on Philip's long battle to get to
Speaker 2: see his granddaughter in Ireland.
Speaker 3: Yes, I cannot over state our happy. This news made
Speaker 3: me probably second only to Philip, because I've been talking
Speaker 3: to him every day pretty much since we since last week.
Speaker 3: So yes, at that stage he knew that his visa
Speaker 3: had been granted, but of course it's useless unless it's
Speaker 3: in your actual passport, and his passport had to be
Speaker 3: courier hit to him in Virginia West, in the Northern Cape,
Speaker 3: and by yesterday he didn't have it. He the company
Speaker 3: that VFS, the company that's mandated to do the applications process,
Speaker 3: they gave it to FedEx, and after that FedEx said
Speaker 3: that'd given it to another company, wouldn't tell him who
Speaker 3: that which company it was, so it was on the
Speaker 3: phone phone. Long story short. He phoned me because he
Speaker 3: had to leave his home yesterday and around lunchtime to
Speaker 3: overnight in George and then fly to joe Burg and
Speaker 3: then on to Dublin today. And so he had to
Speaker 3: leave at one o'clock and two hours before he still
Speaker 3: didn't have the passport, Propper, And then he phoned to
Speaker 3: say he located It was with a courier company in George.
Speaker 3: They it had been languishing in Durban and went there
Speaker 3: by mistay, I know, can you believe it? Anyway, he
Speaker 3: had to go to George, as I say, and he
Speaker 3: picked it up. And today he sent me a photograph,
Speaker 3: which I requested. And I didn't think with the whole
Speaker 3: Russian drama of it all, he'd remember, but bless him,
Speaker 3: he sent me a photographer from holding his passport.
Speaker 2: So he's on his way this evening. What a relief,
Speaker 2: but what absolutely just in attitude. It is infuriating, Wendy.
Speaker 2: And as we were just discussing, the infuriating part is
Speaker 2: there's nothing we can.
Speaker 1: Do about total powerlessness. Powerlessness.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what I mean, Philip, was you know, every
Speaker 3: touch point that as the days went by, it became
Speaker 3: more and more urgent, and it was the case of
Speaker 3: don't call us, we'll call you. Of course we won't
Speaker 3: and just leave it at that, and even with me
Speaker 3: agitating on the VFS side, and it was like, oh,
Speaker 3: the person who can answer to this is a way,
Speaker 3: you know, just abroad and.
Speaker 2: The level of service speaks to their awareness of the
Speaker 2: fact that they hold all the power in this relationship.
Speaker 1: It really is very obvious.
Speaker 3: Yea.
Speaker 2: Anyway, so is a happy a very close call by
Speaker 2: ours literally, but Philip got his passport with Visa Intact
Speaker 2: and off he goes and we wish him a very
Speaker 2: very happy trip to Ireland, Wendy. The other story we
Speaker 2: want to follow up on is one that came in
Speaker 2: last week. Tyrone sent us of WhatsApp about being affected
Speaker 2: by an unexpected spa closure and I think rather than
Speaker 2: let me summarize it, let's just replay for you what
Speaker 2: Tyrone's message sent.
Speaker 1: To us OBE. Can we take a listen to that
Speaker 1: clip please.
Speaker 2: And says I booked a spa day at the spa
Speaker 2: on zieven Wacht State. I booked for the fourth of
Speaker 2: booked on the fourth of July and paid my nine
Speaker 2: hundred and ninety nine rand. They emailed me to confirm
Speaker 2: and check our requirements for lunch. That was on the
Speaker 2: fourth of July. On the ninth of July, received an
Speaker 2: email to say there will be no more treatments. The
Speaker 2: business has been sold. And then what do we do now?
Speaker 2: Because this is the letter that he was sent. Due
Speaker 2: to unforeseen circumstances, we've had to suspend all services until
Speaker 2: further notice. We sincerely appreciate your loyalty and support over
Speaker 2: the years. We're in the process of selling the business
Speaker 2: and therefore cannot commit to any future bookings possible refund
Speaker 2: I'll be communicated in due course. Thank you for your
Speaker 2: understanding and patients. What does one do possible refunds? They
Speaker 2: took a booking five days before announcing they were selling
Speaker 2: the business.
Speaker 1: Shocking, It's totally unconscionable.
Speaker 3: They had to know that that that of course they
Speaker 3: would not honor that book character.
Speaker 1: So what does Tyrone do?
Speaker 3: You send me an email with all the details and
Speaker 3: I very nicely try and get told of this.
Speaker 1: That Infinity Wellness SPA.
Speaker 2: Okay, thanks for that Obi now he did indeed, and
Speaker 2: we also Tyrone wasn't the only one you heard from Ellis,
Speaker 2: who's sent me a follow up what's at this afternoon?
Speaker 2: Also very concerned and poor Ellis spent three nine hundred
Speaker 2: round on a SPA voucher just two weeks before the
Speaker 2: business sent out that's sorry, we're closing email. So in
Speaker 2: exactly the same position as Tyrone Wendy, you've had some
Speaker 2: further engagements in the past week.
Speaker 3: Tell us what happened, sure, so, sevan Wacht directed. Denise
Speaker 3: Johnson contacted me to share some background on the issue
Speaker 3: back when I'm not sure the pronounce if.
Speaker 1: I'm mutila, I think it was.
Speaker 3: There's some of the letters dropped off here which had
Speaker 3: recently branded as Infinity. She said, had least the premises
Speaker 3: on the estate since twenty sixteen. While the estate was
Speaker 3: or where that they were experiencing difficulties, mainly because they
Speaker 3: were behind in their mental payments. They'd undertaken to pay
Speaker 3: back the areas and business was expected to pick up
Speaker 3: after the rebranding, and it came as a complete complete surprise,
Speaker 3: Denise said to us last week when they announced the
Speaker 3: immediate closure of the SPA. I think the management and
Speaker 3: booking staff did not expect the closure and it seems
Speaker 3: they were also taken by surprise. She said, we will
Speaker 3: do everything that we can to assist the guests to
Speaker 3: obtain a refund. I think it's important to note here
Speaker 3: that there are a completely separate entity.
Speaker 1: Not owned for us. They were renting space.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So Denise later got back to me to say,
Speaker 3: I've had a very positive meeting with a potential new
Speaker 3: SPA operator. If they're enter into an agreement with us
Speaker 3: between the two companies that's the news Spa and Zevena,
Speaker 3: we will attempt to honor all bookings that have not
Speaker 3: been refunded. As I have no access to the database
Speaker 3: or list of guests, we are keeping a record of
Speaker 3: all inquiries that we receive. So I sent her Tyrone
Speaker 3: and Ellis's details, so those are on the list, and
Speaker 3: I think we can say that's that's a pretty good
Speaker 3: glimmer of hope.
Speaker 1: Well, I think that's very decent and a very nice attitude.
Speaker 2: Very decent of them, because neither nor the new Spa
Speaker 2: owners have any obligation. Now, it wasn't their promise, it
Speaker 2: wasn't them taking the money, but the fact that they
Speaker 2: would like to restore the good will and restore that
Speaker 2: service that was promised, I think is fantastic. So well
Speaker 2: done to Zevinvacht and let's hope the new SPA operator
Speaker 2: who comes in will continue with that attitude of honoring
Speaker 2: the book. Book and the main thing here is to
Speaker 2: let them know if you are impacted. So we have
Speaker 2: Tyrone and Ellis's details and those have been passed on
Speaker 2: to Zevin Vacht. Here's another one, Colleen saying we bought
Speaker 2: a wiki deal's couple's massage but had not yet made
Speaker 2: a booking. Colin, please send us an email. You can
Speaker 2: mail it to straight to Wendy or you can mail
Speaker 2: it to me if you prefer, if that's easier. And
Speaker 2: we were forwarded onto Zevinvach to add you to the
Speaker 2: list of those that they know they need to try
Speaker 2: and accommodate.
Speaker 3: Or in Colleen's case, she could go to that platform
Speaker 3: and she would be entitled to the value of what
Speaker 3: she paid for that voucher to be used, and that's
Speaker 3: how those deals work, to be used on another offer
Speaker 3: and it could be valid for three years because it's
Speaker 3: a prepaid voucher would be valid for at least three years,
Speaker 3: So that's another option for her.
Speaker 2: Okay, so Colleen, you either go back to Wiki deals
Speaker 2: and say they can't honor this one that I bought.
Speaker 1: Can I get a.
Speaker 2: Equivalent value in sane vouchers to spend, or if you
Speaker 2: would like to try and get onto the list to
Speaker 2: be reaccommodated at the new SPA value venue, please do
Speaker 2: pop me easiest tos pop me an email Pippa h
Speaker 2: at Cape Talk dot co dot z and we'll make
Speaker 2: sure it reaches Zevinvacht. And if anybody else listening is
Speaker 2: in the same boat of having had a booking at
Speaker 2: the whether it was still when it was called Baquena
Speaker 2: or when it was rebranded as Infinity Spa, the one
Speaker 2: on Zevinvacht estate which has now closed, and you wouldn't
Speaker 2: we're not able to get a refund, Please let us
Speaker 2: know so that we can pass that information on. Zevenbach
Speaker 2: does not have access to the booking information that that
Speaker 2: vacating SPA would have been in charge of, so it's
Speaker 2: imperative that you reach out to them because they're not
Speaker 2: able to reach out to you. I hope that's clear,
Speaker 2: and Wendy, thank you very much for following up. I
Speaker 2: hope that that is going to be a satisfactory solution
Speaker 2: for all parties affected by this closure. Okay, and now
Speaker 2: onto the main subject of the day, which is the
Speaker 2: so called biodegradable wet wipes that aren't quite the green
Speaker 2: wind some consumers might think they are. Wendy, You've done
Speaker 2: some really deep digging and got some stats on how
Speaker 2: many of them end up in our stormwater drainage systems,
Speaker 2: in our rivers, washed up on our beaches.
Speaker 1: It's absolutely horrifying.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So you've got two claims chat with these wet
Speaker 3: wipes for perab ones, which say they're bad or gradable,
Speaker 3: and the other that say they're flashable. Because wherever you're
Speaker 3: using them on your body, that's how I mean. It's
Speaker 3: mostly moist toilet issue, which a very yeah they're saying,
Speaker 3: you know, they marketed as saying get cleaner sort of
Speaker 3: thing and use the Yeah, and it's not a cheap process.
Speaker 3: So you'd imagine they used by high end consumers who
Speaker 3: fall for the marketing. So they cause significant blockages and
Speaker 3: sewer systems globally, or wipes that are flushed, whatever their
Speaker 3: marketing claim is, particularly in large cities, which lead to
Speaker 3: costly repairs and obviously cause a lot of environmental damage.
Speaker 3: So the City of Cape Ton's water and sanitation teams
Speaker 3: listen to these numbers, had to attend to one thousand
Speaker 3: and seventy two one thousand and seventy two sewer blockages
Speaker 3: in Camps Bay, Bucko and Clifton and Cpoint between July
Speaker 3: twenty twenty three and March of this year.
Speaker 2: So over one thousand blockages in just those four suburbs. Yes,
Speaker 2: in a space of not quite two years.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay. And one of the.
Speaker 3: Main cause are these blockages. There's the City of Cape
Speaker 3: Town or wear twaps being flushed down the toilet along
Speaker 3: with some other items which do not belong in the
Speaker 3: sewer system. The city doesn't care what that's what's said
Speaker 3: on the package. Don't not toilet paper, if it's thicker
Speaker 3: and whatever, then don't do it, is what they're saying.
Speaker 3: And I suppose a's the ones that need to deal
Speaker 3: with problem. They've got a right to say that, to
Speaker 3: say that.
Speaker 1: So okay.
Speaker 2: So six thousand kilograms of waste removed from their sewer
Speaker 2: pump station monthly, a lot of it wet wipes and wendy.
Speaker 1: They've shared some photographs.
Speaker 2: With us and we have shared those on our social
Speaker 2: media platforms to just demonstrate and illustrate this. If you
Speaker 2: do not believe us, or you are still operating under
Speaker 2: the misperception that these are products which just go away
Speaker 2: when you flush them away, I'll urge you to go
Speaker 2: to our social media pages and take a look at
Speaker 2: those photographs and see for yourself what is happening.
Speaker 3: They're actually from the city's website and I was given
Speaker 3: a link to them, so they're actually out there. I'm
Speaker 3: sure a lot of people haven't seen them, but they
Speaker 3: really were. And you know, the wipes are very, very visible.
Speaker 2: And very obvious and wendy. The problem is not just
Speaker 2: the wipes themselves, but it's the way they cling to
Speaker 2: other rubbish.
Speaker 3: Yes, so they combine with greece and other debris to
Speaker 3: form fatburgs, which became famous, infamous rather in twenty thirteen
Speaker 3: when London removed a fifteen ton fat burg. Mostly it's
Speaker 3: made up of discarded wipes, and it took them weeks
Speaker 3: to dismantle that. Water UK reports that wipes cause ninety
Speaker 3: three percent ninety three percent of UK sewer blockages, with
Speaker 3: three hundred thousand incidents costing them one hundred million around
Speaker 3: a year. So I mean, other countries are in many
Speaker 3: cases much better at keeping statistics of these sort of things.
Speaker 3: But I think we can we can draw our you know,
Speaker 3: draw from that the fact that this is a big
Speaker 3: problem in any countries or municipalities sewer system. So, as
Speaker 3: I said, a lot of these products are marketed across
Speaker 3: the world as flashable or biodegradable in the case of
Speaker 3: those that they're not telling you to flush. But these
Speaker 3: claims aren't many cases inaccurate, almost leading, and this is
Speaker 3: what leads to significant sewer system issues. So it's said
Speaker 3: that in the case of the flashable wipes, that they
Speaker 3: do not disintegrate quickly enough to avoid clogging sewer systems, because,
Speaker 3: unlike toilet paper, which breaks down almost immediately in water wet,
Speaker 3: WAPs are designed to remain intact with wet when wet
Speaker 3: because they kept you know, and if what they're in
Speaker 3: is not going to break them down for even along
Speaker 3: there on the shelf before you use them, doesn't it
Speaker 3: just make logical sense that they're not going to magically
Speaker 3: disappear and disintegrate and degrade or whatever you want to
Speaker 3: use as they go into the system. The problem is, yes,
Speaker 3: they they will break down, but in many cases they
Speaker 3: reach the sewage system and start causing the damage before
Speaker 3: they've had a chance to do it. Yes, that's really
Speaker 3: it's the same story as so many of these so
Speaker 3: called compostible products would be that they're not going to
Speaker 3: be composted in ideal composting conditions which would allow them
Speaker 3: to break down. So you can claim that they are
Speaker 3: compostible or biodegradable, but that's not the same thing as
Speaker 3: saying that they are being composted or being biodegraded because
Speaker 3: they're never given the chance to do so. And in
Speaker 3: the case of flashable that they're going to behave like
Speaker 3: ordinary toilet paper once you flush them, because they're simply
Speaker 3: they've been sitting in water and you still they're still.
Speaker 1: Intact when you get them in your hand. I mean
Speaker 1: logic and a change when you go it on the loop. Yeah.
Speaker 3: So here's another stat In a Toronto.
Speaker 1: And had so many I just had to leave most of.
Speaker 3: Them out for time purposes. But in Toronto Metropolitan University,
Speaker 3: their study had researchers testing twenty three wipes that were
Speaker 3: labeled as flashable and found that only two partially disintegrated.
Speaker 3: Sure Similarly, in the case of wipes labeled as a
Speaker 3: bad A gradible made with cellulose based fibers such as
Speaker 3: rayon or viscos, they do degrade, as we've said, but
Speaker 3: in many cases not quickly enough. A twenty twenty three
Speaker 3: Science Direct study found that more than half of so
Speaker 3: called biodegradable wipes contained synthetic fibers or chemical additives that
Speaker 3: inhibited degrading, leading to persistent microfibers that polluted waterways. So heyes,
Speaker 3: an industry that is when association rather that is quoted
Speaker 3: when you ask the manufacturers of flashable wipes to justify
Speaker 3: their claims. It's a US based association called INDA, the
Speaker 3: Association of the Non Woven Fabrics Industry. And INDA has
Speaker 3: developed voluntary guidelines because there's there are no government regulations
Speaker 3: around this, right, so they've developed voluntary guidelines for flash ability.
Speaker 3: But without going into too much detail, and there's a
Speaker 3: lot of detail. These have been criticized for not replacing
Speaker 3: or replicating rather real world sewer conditions. So they'll give them, say,
Speaker 3: three minutes for it to break down, but in three
Speaker 3: minutes the damage has been done.
Speaker 2: It's already chunking up a pipe somewhere in the system.
Speaker 3: So that sort of thing and their moves I know
Speaker 3: in the UK to have it put an end to
Speaker 3: safety flash or flashable wipes because it's of the same problem.
Speaker 2: Well, Victor's mailing in to say, thanks to your previous
Speaker 2: program on the disposal of wet wipes, I now know
Speaker 2: only to put them in the dustbin and never to
Speaker 2: flush them down the loo. The problem is Wendy, so
Speaker 2: much of the packaging is still clearly saying flushable or
Speaker 2: even naming them brands like flush Ease, which imply that
Speaker 2: they can be flushed. And again I'm going to come
Speaker 2: back to that phrase. You just used real world sewer conditions.
Speaker 2: It's one thing to say that in perfect laboratory conditions
Speaker 2: this product will bid degrade or will break down eventually.
Speaker 2: It doesn't get eventually when you put it down the
Speaker 2: toilet into the sewer system. It's a matter of minutes
Speaker 2: forwards into the main main flowing pipes and where it
Speaker 2: is going to coaguate with all the other things that shouldn't.
Speaker 1: Be there exactly.
Speaker 3: And the other problem is a user issue, and that
Speaker 3: is and one of the brands will get to in
Speaker 3: a moment they say, don't use more than two, but
Speaker 3: human nature is why I use two, and I can
Speaker 3: do a better job with four and so.
Speaker 2: People and that's use a fistful and that all goes
Speaker 2: down at the same time.
Speaker 3: That's guaranteed to cause a problem.
Speaker 2: Well, a couple of interesting comments here. Herod's saying thank
Speaker 2: you for this program. I want to add that critical pumps,
Speaker 2: which are submerged pumps at super collector booster pumps burn
Speaker 2: out and fail because of things like this, plus rags
Speaker 2: including kitchen towels, those typical red or blue dailies. They
Speaker 2: get tracked trapped in the fans of the pumps, and
Speaker 2: that's when one of our council members, in fact, it's
Speaker 2: all of me he free. Thank you for adding to that.
Speaker 2: Marica saying when I was in London, I read that
Speaker 2: the river bed of the Thames is lined with mounds
Speaker 2: and mounds of wet wipes. I will never buy one again.
Speaker 2: Sheila's it's time baby wipes and disposable nappies should be banned.
Speaker 2: And then a long input from Jamie. I'm just going
Speaker 2: to try and summarize here, Jamie saying nappies and sanitary
Speaker 2: hygiene products also need.
Speaker 1: To be added to this list.
Speaker 2: Many of them don't biodgrade even in landfalls. Reducing environmble
Speaker 2: impact and landfall waste starts at the production, design, and
Speaker 2: manufacturing of goods or of packaging. In the case of food,
Speaker 2: food and beverages, it's ludicrous that consumers are forced to
Speaker 2: accept unsustainable products which pollute the environment and create landfull waste.
Speaker 2: Products need to be designed so that they last longer,
Speaker 2: are suitable for repair and servicing. Food and beverage packaging
Speaker 2: needs to be economized and designed so that it is
Speaker 2: biodegradable or composted. And I get to say again, biodegradable
Speaker 2: and actually going to biod grade, compostible and likely to
Speaker 2: be composted two very different things that need to be understood.
Speaker 2: Saying that it can happen in perfect lab conditions is
Speaker 2: not the same as it will happen when you throw
Speaker 2: it away.
Speaker 3: It's the same with the term recyclable.
Speaker 1: YEP, and recyclable versus.
Speaker 3: Which part of the country, by which plant and it's
Speaker 3: technically possible, but it's not happening in any case.
Speaker 2: We've got loads of what voice notes coming in and
Speaker 2: we're going to place some of those.
Speaker 1: WhatsApp seven to five six seven one five six Sevendy.
Speaker 4: I'm in the plastics industry and we struggle with the
Speaker 4: same thing with plastic and a lot of the time,
Speaker 4: but industrial composting as opposed to be compostible.
Speaker 5: So yeah, hi Papa, you haven't yet had the conversation
Speaker 5: about biodegradability and home compostibility yet with Wendy, but I
Speaker 5: just thought i'd.
Speaker 1: Shoot this message through.
Speaker 6: It is a huge buck bear, I think you know that.
Speaker 6: And it applies equally to claims around dog pooh bags,
Speaker 6: and so many of them are completely spurious, and yet
Speaker 6: those that are genuine. It makes no sense. I mean,
Speaker 6: why would you have a compostable dog pooh bag when
Speaker 6: the person who is using it is not going to
Speaker 6: make any effort to home compost it, and and similarly,
Speaker 6: it is not going to make any effort to watch
Speaker 6: it bio degrade because ultimately it ends up in the
Speaker 6: municipal waste stream where it goes to anaerobic landfall, where
Speaker 6: it's just going to sit as it would if it
Speaker 6: was plastic. So yeah, it's it's a big issue, and
Speaker 6: it's just greenwashing, pure and simple. Caroline from the M
Speaker 6: three actually.
Speaker 7: Bye, Papa, I've been I've seen advertising and been seeing
Speaker 7: a bamboo product that is a w as well as
Speaker 7: bamboo disposed on their piece. They claim to be biodegradable.
Speaker 7: Would that be?
Speaker 2: So I don't know the answer to that off the
Speaker 2: top of my head, Wendy, do you.
Speaker 3: There was a product in Pick and Pay that I
Speaker 3: saw when I was doing my re search that it
Speaker 3: was sort of being marketed as a baby wipe, but
Speaker 3: it said organic biodegradable. That was their whole Its plastered
Speaker 3: all over the pack. And when I looked for a
Speaker 3: company name and address contact details, there was nothing. So
Speaker 3: I went to Pick and Pay and I said, this
Speaker 3: is last week, and I said, please, gud you ask
Speaker 3: your buyers to give me a name and whatever. And
Speaker 3: it hasn't happened yet, unfortunately. But that was something I
Speaker 3: also wanted to interrogate because it was a very very
Speaker 3: bold claim in the context of that market.
Speaker 2: I'm going to send the same generic response that it
Speaker 2: depends on if they are being disposed of in the
Speaker 2: correct way. Any product is only going to buy a
Speaker 2: Y grade if it is put in the correct conditions
Speaker 2: for that process to start. And Caroline, thank you. You probably
Speaker 2: recognized the voice of Caroline from Project Nouah Tugt, who
Speaker 2: is passionate about these things. She's told us over and
Speaker 2: over again. The conditions for composting in your home compost
Speaker 2: put are not the same as an industrial grade composting system,
Speaker 2: and the kind of chemical reactions, the temperatures that get
Speaker 2: reached to trigger those reactions, et cetera, cannot happen in
Speaker 2: your average home setting.
Speaker 3: So this product is I took a picture in the
Speaker 3: store Bamboo Wipe sixties made by Bamboo Earth, but there
Speaker 3: was there were no contact details. As I said, the
Speaker 3: claim in large letters on the front is one hundred
Speaker 3: percent organic, compostible, biodegradable. And that's why I wanted to
Speaker 3: speak to the company compassible in what circumstances they were
Speaker 3: into the asterisks there to explain. But yeah, I really
Speaker 3: do and we can come back next week. Perhaps I
Speaker 3: really do want to engage with that company to find.
Speaker 1: Out under what conditions.
Speaker 3: Then I don't know if they're man should overseas, but
Speaker 3: there should be an address, yeah, at the very least
Speaker 3: of a local company that imports them or whatever, And
Speaker 3: there absolutely is nothing. So that's a problem in terms
Speaker 3: of our labeling laws for one thing, Ambers saying I've
Speaker 3: bought biodegradable pante liders.
Speaker 1: Pands had tampons.
Speaker 2: Before, but have always wondered how degradable or landfall friendly
Speaker 2: they actually are.
Speaker 1: I think the answer is the same.
Speaker 2: It depends on where they go and what conditions they
Speaker 2: are put into whether they can actually begin the process
Speaker 2: of degrading properly. Now, let's just Caroline use the word
Speaker 2: green washing, and it's the word I used in our engagement,
Speaker 2: in our prep for the segment, Wendy, because my question
Speaker 2: to you is why are brands allowed to get away
Speaker 2: with this kind of green washing, of marketing a product
Speaker 2: as flushable, making the consumer believe that it is going
Speaker 2: to disappear in a responsible way when they know full
Speaker 2: well they have to know full well that it's not
Speaker 2: going to do so you mentioned earlier, there are no
Speaker 2: sort of legally binding standards for for that claim of flushing.
Speaker 3: No, and there have been several law for law suits
Speaker 3: though that have challenged the manufacturer's claims. Procter and Gamble
Speaker 3: settled the federal class action lawsuit in New York five
Speaker 3: years ago, agreeing to remove the claim that their charm
Speaker 3: and fresh mates are quote safe for sewer and septic systems.
Speaker 3: The plaintiffs that argue that the wips don't disintegrate upon
Speaker 3: flushing or break down sufficiently to pass through paps and
Speaker 3: could thus cause serious problems for plumbing, sewer and scepting
Speaker 3: septic systems. This is also, I mean, before you get
Speaker 3: to the global that the bigger issue of our municipal
Speaker 3: systems is your own plumbing system. I would imagine that
Speaker 3: there were some plumbing bills related to things that were
Speaker 3: said to be flashabile and actually ended up clogging, but
Speaker 3: we do have. There was the Green Drop reports findings
Speaker 3: on failing wastewater infrastructure in this country, suggesting that WAPs
Speaker 3: contribute to the problem as they do globally, and the
Speaker 3: City of Cape Toan most definitely considers them a no. No.
Speaker 3: Mayor or Committee member for Water and Sanitation Counselor Sahi
Speaker 3: Budridin told us that improper disposal of wet wips is
Speaker 3: a massive issue in Cape Town, affecting the operations at
Speaker 3: pump stations, causing sewer blockages that lead to sewer overflows,
Speaker 3: and even causing damage to the city's water and sanitation infrastructure.
Speaker 3: He said, it's important to remember that only the three
Speaker 3: pas can be flushed pee poop, and paper and brackets
Speaker 3: toilet paper, not the moist stuff.
Speaker 2: That's a good and easy way to remember it that
Speaker 2: nothing else should be going.
Speaker 3: Anything else that makes its way into the drainage system
Speaker 3: will eventually cause a blockage or damage the system. While
Speaker 3: it may not seem that one flushed wet wip here
Speaker 3: and there is enough to cause these problems, it's the
Speaker 3: accumulation of wet wips, cooking, fat, nappies and other items
Speaker 3: disposed incorrectly by many people that can quickly cause a
Speaker 3: large solid war that fat burg that stops the flow
Speaker 3: of sewage. That's what can I just say if you
Speaker 3: ever need convincing as to why you don't want to
Speaker 3: be in a situation where your sewer system is unable
Speaker 3: to hope with the flow of sewage to yourself of
Speaker 3: airma and watch the Netflix documentary on the Poop.
Speaker 2: Cruise and see what they went through when that happened
Speaker 2: in a contained environment of a ship, and you will
Speaker 2: certainly rethink everything that you put down a toilet is
Speaker 2: all I will say, Wendy, I mean you shed that
Speaker 2: staggering figure of the one thousand blockages in those four
Speaker 2: Atlantic Seaboard suburbs in the space of two years, but
Speaker 2: the figure for the city overall between December twenty twenty
Speaker 2: three and January twenty twenty four, so a year basically.
Speaker 1: A year and one month.
Speaker 2: No, no, not even.
Speaker 3: That's that's peak season. That's that's Christmas fifteenth of December
Speaker 3: twenty twenty three to fifteen January twenty four, so it's
Speaker 3: just a week. It's a month essentially, but it's the
Speaker 3: peak month. Cape to On recorded more than eighty four
Speaker 3: hundred sewer blockages. So you must have mentioned they are
Speaker 3: maintenance teams where everyone else is holiday is now on
Speaker 3: full active duty. The biggest culprits condoms, airbirds, wet wipes, rags, plastics,
Speaker 3: snappies and cotton swabs.
Speaker 2: And I'm going to add to that anybody, and Jamie
Speaker 2: has mentioned this in his message. Anybody who has ever
Speaker 2: taken part in a beach cleanup will know lollipop sticks
Speaker 2: are part of that problem. And Jamie actually wrote to
Speaker 2: me to say he spoke to Mayor Jordan hill Lewis
Speaker 2: about this in twenty twenty two and he told me
Speaker 2: he had expressed his request to lollipop manufacturers to please
Speaker 2: change the sucker sticks to paper, and that it had
Speaker 2: been ignored, and that these remain frequent offenders in clogging
Speaker 2: drains and washing up on the.
Speaker 3: Beaches because they get tangled and all sorts of other
Speaker 3: things they have done ubiquitous and they are terryware tear
Speaker 3: absolutely everywhere. Cigarette bats another problem sanitary products, especially nappis,
Speaker 3: et cetera. So eight eighty four hundred blockages in a
Speaker 3: single month over peak season, I mean, that is absolutely horrifying.
Speaker 3: So remember those three p's. That's a very simple way
Speaker 3: of holding on to.
Speaker 2: It as to what could can be managed by the system.
Speaker 2: Wendy you okay, Now let's drill down to what the
Speaker 2: manufacturers actually said, because you did challenge several of them
Speaker 2: in preparation for today's segments.
Speaker 1: Tell us about those in games. Okay.
Speaker 3: So, Baby soft moist toilet tissue claims to be one
Speaker 3: hundred percent safety flush as well as biodegradable. They are
Speaker 3: recommended to be used together with dry toilet to shoe
Speaker 3: for superior cleaning. So you're gonna put your your paper
Speaker 3: down and this wet wap, So I asked Kimberley Clark
Speaker 3: for evidence of their safety flush and biodegradable claims. The
Speaker 3: answer came, they made from one hundred percent cellulose fibers
Speaker 3: and don't contain plastic. They are safety flush when disposed
Speaker 3: of correctly. That's an important provisor there, because a lot
Speaker 3: of people what does that mean? They were saying, we'll
Speaker 3: get I think they're the ones. Yes, no more than
Speaker 3: two sheets at a time, two.
Speaker 2: Sheets join up with somebody else's, two sheets join up
Speaker 2: with the neighbors.
Speaker 1: Become a lot of people.
Speaker 3: Now you saying, you know you must be you must
Speaker 3: have this product to be have a superior clean rear end.
Speaker 1: So now you're going to.
Speaker 3: Use toilet Baby plus three or four sheets Our baby
Speaker 3: soft moist toilet isshoes meat all industry standards and are
Speaker 3: designed to break down in the sewer system and not
Speaker 3: cause blockages. Kimberley Clark is a proud member of INDA.
Speaker 3: Remember I spoke about INDA and something else called r
Speaker 3: ed A and A associations of non worven manufacturers and suppliers.
Speaker 3: All its tests must be conducted and passed to demonstrate
Speaker 3: conformance and to claim flushable. So these are industry standards
Speaker 3: and tests.
Speaker 2: Remember they're not the industry needs to be having a
Speaker 2: conversation with about the sewer system.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I also spoke to GQ tissue. That company has the
Speaker 3: brand SAT and Touch and they put out flushies.
Speaker 1: The name says it all at all, Yeah.
Speaker 3: And it's very big on it's got a picture of
Speaker 3: a toilet on the front and lots of flushing action.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So it's it's very obviously intended to be flushed through
Speaker 2: and the recommended use three to four sheets per flow.
Speaker 3: Okay, thanks for picking that up. Three to four Okay.
Speaker 3: So apparently the product is called that they're made from.
Speaker 3: It's called bioflush, which I mean, it doesn't say much,
Speaker 3: but it can decompose one hundred percent in the nature
Speaker 3: and disperse in the water. It's produced using one hundred
Speaker 3: percent natural sources kind to the skin. Bioflush helps to
Speaker 3: make life easier for everybody by not clogging the toilets
Speaker 3: and city sewages. The flush ability of bioflush has been
Speaker 3: approved by seven tests which were performed by CTP laboratories
Speaker 3: in France, according to the regulations EDANA and INDA. So
Speaker 3: those are the two guidelines regulations that are industry manufactured.
Speaker 2: Okay, so they're all falling back on the same response
Speaker 2: that lab testing has confirmed that they break down. But
Speaker 2: clearly what the lab testing conditions are demonstrating is not
Speaker 2: correlating with what is happening in our through system in
Speaker 2: exactly so in it.
Speaker 3: Devinish owns Sandy Touch. They make a very huge players
Speaker 3: in the white market. They make a very wide range
Speaker 3: from medical grade using hospitals to lapize use at the bry.
Speaker 3: They don't make any flashable wires, but they do claim
Speaker 3: biodegradeability and recyclability.
Speaker 1: She says.
Speaker 3: The problem is that wet warps are and that's what
Speaker 3: I said at the beginning, are by.
Speaker 1: Nature supplied wet.
Speaker 3: They need wet strength, So by nature a wet wap
Speaker 3: needs to be strong enough to not tear while wiping
Speaker 3: or cleaning. I mean, it's really not what you want,
Speaker 3: especially being used in the toilet situation. They also need
Speaker 3: shelf life, so they need to stay wet in a
Speaker 3: solution on a shelf or in stores without starting to
Speaker 3: buio degrade and break and then or break down prior
Speaker 3: to use. The wet strength comes from it either bounderies
Speaker 3: or from fibers which are entangled to be strong, whether
Speaker 3: they're natural or not, they are entangled to be strong
Speaker 3: and not breakdown in a water solution, because that's how
Speaker 3: the've got to sit on the shelf, and that's how
Speaker 3: they've got to be fully formed in your integrity.
Speaker 1: Well used people can just.
Speaker 3: Get this in their minds, maybe like at home, so
Speaker 3: she says, and coupled with human nature, which says, never
Speaker 3: take one wipe at a time, but take more. The
Speaker 3: mass is often more of a problem than the actual
Speaker 3: wipe itself. If one small wipe was used and flushed
Speaker 3: at a time, the chance of sewage lines blocking would
Speaker 3: be minimized. Another big problem in South Africas, isn't it,
Speaker 3: is that we have search systems that are not being upgraded,
Speaker 3: with many many municipal systems having to try to cope
Speaker 3: with way more waste than they were originally designed to
Speaker 3: do with the influx of city of people rather into
Speaker 3: the cities. So she says, they have wips not designed
Speaker 3: to go in the toilet, but on the toilet seat.
Speaker 3: Eco wipes to clean toilet seats are made from wet
Speaker 3: strength paper. They contain a minimal amount of binder, which
Speaker 3: is what makes them strong. Enough to hold the liquid
Speaker 3: that's needed to presaturate the wipes.
Speaker 1: They very thin.
Speaker 3: The base is similar instructions to tea bag paper and
Speaker 3: they will bio degrade over time in the right conditions
Speaker 3: in an act of compost heap, she says. But they
Speaker 3: don't call them flashable because I can't want those.
Speaker 2: Those should by rights work in a properly working compost heap.
Speaker 1: Heap implies a home set. It's not an industrial compost.
Speaker 3: We have a n c's which are some kind of
Speaker 3: a I forget the full name, which at night will
Speaker 3: you deal with from.
Speaker 1: Effectively lunch on them?
Speaker 3: And clearly, interestingly, since we're talking wipe, Sunny Touch does
Speaker 3: a green sandy wipe in collaboration with Checkers. You'll see
Speaker 3: them at the front of the stores, and those wipes
Speaker 3: because they invite you to put them at the bottom,
Speaker 3: and I dispose of them there as well as the containers.
Speaker 3: I think it's polyproperly and that they come in are
Speaker 3: fully recyclable, and they're in this joint venture with Checkers,
Speaker 3: with Checkers and shop right where they remove those used
Speaker 3: wipes and those those tubs that they come in and
Speaker 3: they make palettes plastic timber which is used to make
Speaker 3: outdoor furniture, jungle gyms and other amazing party They can't
Speaker 3: say the green Sanny Touch wipes that are at the
Speaker 3: entrance to the COVID days to wipe your hands, to
Speaker 3: wipe the trolleys.
Speaker 1: Okay, that they're supply free.
Speaker 3: And they are very much involved in getting that whole
Speaker 3: lot recycle.
Speaker 2: So as you said, it's recyclable and also actively being resigned.
Speaker 3: Have to have a project to enable that claim if
Speaker 3: you've got because that's why I said, tell me about
Speaker 3: your recyclable claim, and she did in great detail, which
Speaker 3: I have summarized down to very little.
Speaker 2: Yeah, somebody making an interesting point. I find that taking
Speaker 2: one wipe is almost impossible. So with my daughter it
Speaker 2: takes a few at a time. So even if you
Speaker 2: intended to only use one, I hear, remember that the
Speaker 2: way that they come out of it's the same with tissues,
Speaker 2: especially at the start of a box. Yes, you're trying
Speaker 2: to take one, you get a fist fall in one.
Speaker 3: Toilet paper at the beginning of the role of we're
Speaker 3: talking about that the way some of them are glued.
Speaker 3: I mean you to take this huge.
Speaker 1: One just to wheel away the lot broken heads.
Speaker 3: So finally I just want to mention Clicks because they
Speaker 3: are the brand owner and retailer of I Earth eco
Speaker 3: friendly flashable baby wips. So they're saying to the moms,
Speaker 3: use this on your babies and then flush. Yeah, right,
Speaker 3: And they make the claim one hundred percent flashable and biodegradable,
Speaker 3: designed to disintegrate during municipal treatment, reducing land full waste.
Speaker 3: And so I asked them to substantiate and the answer
Speaker 3: was that their wips are made from viscos cellulos and
Speaker 3: wood pulp, making them plastic free, one hundred percent flashable
Speaker 3: and biodegradable. The wipe itself is one hundred percent paper
Speaker 3: and bracket cellulos and not made of any synthetic material.
Speaker 3: The wipe is then considered wet toilet paper when used.
Speaker 3: They say the independent tests have been conducted by the
Speaker 3: same lab in front same French yapp using the guidelines
Speaker 3: for assessing the flush ability of disposable nonwoven products. So
Speaker 3: they're all citing the same guidelines, which experts this sort
Speaker 3: of thing are saying they too lenient in real life,
Speaker 3: I mean, before they've gone I think the one stat
Speaker 3: or Garlan I read was they must disintegrate within three minutes.
Speaker 1: And as I said, that's someone's just not happening. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I think we go.
Speaker 3: Back to councilors. I he'd Badriddine's advice. Only the three peas,
Speaker 3: please pee, poop and toilet paper, the old fashioned paper
Speaker 3: toilet paper, not the moist stuff.
Speaker 1: That's what.
Speaker 3: Don't shoot the messengerman effacturers.
Speaker 1: That is what the city is saying.
Speaker 3: And I would imagine that any other municipality in this
Speaker 3: country would be echoing that.
Speaker 2: Okay, so please take it with a pinch of salt.
Speaker 2: What the packaging says and what happens in real life
Speaker 2: active environment, in a real life suicetting, they're not the
Speaker 2: same thing. And you're hearing that loud and clear. And
Speaker 2: if you have any doubt about whether the city is
Speaker 2: exaggerating the nature of this project, of this problem, please
Speaker 2: go and take a look on our social media pages.
Speaker 1: We have shared and accredited to.
Speaker 2: Them the photograph shared by City of Cape Town, which
Speaker 2: demonstrates the way that these wipes clog up the pumps,
Speaker 2: the catchment systems, et cetera. It is a very accurate
Speaker 2: visual representation of the nature of the problem. And clearly
Speaker 2: the wipes that reached those grids did not biod grade
Speaker 2: and disintegrate as they were intended to do in the system.
Speaker 2: So please go and take a look if you have
Speaker 2: any remaining dots and it's not just caped on. If
Speaker 2: you need any further comment, Belinda's saying wet wipes on
Speaker 2: the Fish River Canyon hike a terrible thing to behold.
Speaker 3: I think we should also just say, in connection with
Speaker 3: those photos, a lot of those wipes will be ones
Speaker 3: which the manufacturers didn't specifically say you can flush these right,
Speaker 3: but the user issue they chose to. So it's just
Speaker 3: to say, don't assume. And I think the complication comes
Speaker 3: in where some are marketed as flashable and some aren't,
Speaker 3: and consumers might get the idea that just looks a
Speaker 3: thin little thing, I'm just going to pop it down.
Speaker 3: And if you've had babies, like both of us have,
Speaker 3: I mean, one wipe is never enough, not the job
Speaker 3: in many circumstances, so it's going to be many and
Speaker 3: I think to large extents it's those ones. Extent those
Speaker 3: ones that are doing a lot of the damage. We
Speaker 3: can't blame it all on the ones that are marketed
Speaker 3: as flashable, but I think you know we've heard the
Speaker 3: evidence about are they really by degrading in time And.
Speaker 2: The answer is emphatically no. So please keep that in mind,
Speaker 2: particularly next time you want to flush anything down your
Speaker 2: system in Cape Town. Right, we're going to have to
Speaker 2: wrap up there, so thank you so much to those
Speaker 2: who have contributed this afternoon, and please just bear in
Speaker 2: mind what you've heard that even if it says on
Speaker 2: the label that let's flush a bull, that does not
Speaker 2: mean it should be flushed in the city of Cape
Speaker 2: Town directly asking residents not to flush anything of the
Speaker 2: nature of a wet wipe. Nothing but the three piece
Speaker 2: should be flushed down our loose system. If you learned
Speaker 2: nothing else today, please take that away with you.
Speaker 1: And flush it.
Speaker 2: Don't flush it, store it in your brain. Wendy thanks
Speaker 2: us all is for your help and we'll chat again
Speaker 2: next week Wednesday.
Speaker 1: Well do