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Speaker 1: And now The Money Show with Stephen Cribbits on seven

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Speaker 1: oh two net's walk Little.

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Speaker 2: The Money Show with Stephen Curtis is brought to you

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Speaker 2: by abscess cib Discover the latest trends shaping digital assets

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Speaker 2: across Africa. Download the Absent Africa Digital Assets Insights twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty five ten after six, good evening. Welcome to the program,

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Speaker 2: lots to come. I'm Stephen Curtis. Obviously a big issues

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Speaker 2: about inflation coquettes o mano already on hold, Doctor Fricki

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Speaker 2: Marie from the National Red Meat Producers Organization as well

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Speaker 2: meat prices pushing inflation up. Inflation itself slightly lower, but

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Speaker 2: beef up thirty percent a year on year. Also the

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Speaker 2: latest on the smelter story, the Lion smelter resuming production today,

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Speaker 2: cheaper electricity but responsible for that yarp. Full Ard on

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Speaker 2: your radio in about ten minutes. On that issue, I

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Speaker 2: will speak to Jack Devner in the chair of the

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Speaker 2: Essay Guild of Actors. Fascinating to hear about what happened

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Speaker 2: in parliament. The DTICEE under fire hasn't been paying out

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Speaker 2: rebates for local film productions. And then the fast moving

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Speaker 2: consumer goods sector despite the factory of a declining birth rate,

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Speaker 2: turns out more and more people are spending money on babies.

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Speaker 2: Where does it all go. I'll tell you in a

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Speaker 2: hot second. It goes to nappies. It all goes to nappies.

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Speaker 2: Nappees will consume more money than you've ever produced in

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Speaker 2: your life. That's all I can tell you. At the

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Speaker 2: same time, by the way, don't forget from seven thirty

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Speaker 2: looking forward to speaking to glorious the Robert as your

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Speaker 2: shape shift of this evening, and then of course claims

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Speaker 2: Hunter passing away, someone I knew very well at one

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Speaker 2: point had worked with him. I'll pay tribute to him

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Speaker 2: in about half an hour from now.

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Speaker 3: All the Lonly Show with Stephen Krugers Live on ninety

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Speaker 3: two point seven and one six FM, streaming on the

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Speaker 3: Prime Media Plus.

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Speaker 1: NAP and DStv channel eight five six twelve.

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Speaker 2: After SIXTSSA confirming today inflation for January back to three

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Speaker 2: and a half percent, Foods still the main driver, up

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Speaker 2: four point four percent, mainly because of meat split cereals

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Speaker 2: and eggs coming down in price. Coquettes somno as a

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Speaker 2: senior economist to death and be Coquette so good evening,

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Speaker 2: Thanks for your time. Inflation seems to be behaving itself

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Speaker 2: quite nicely. Are you expecting it to stay roughly in

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Speaker 2: this range for most of the year.

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Speaker 4: Good evening, Stephen. I would say that we hope that

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Speaker 4: it will perform better, actually, because we thought this number

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Speaker 4: for today might have been slightly lower than what it

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Speaker 4: actually became out it. But in general, over the year,

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Speaker 4: we think that the number will remain close to three percent. Obviously,

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Speaker 4: there's four shocks in the system, you know, biosecurity issues,

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Speaker 4: oil price for example, but we're hopeful that three percent

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Speaker 4: will be around about the range that we see over

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Speaker 4: the year.

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Speaker 2: So much of this is beyond our control. I don't

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Speaker 2: know what will happen with the US in Iran, and

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Speaker 2: I have no idea what will happen with the dollar

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Speaker 2: debasement trade and what that will do to the value

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Speaker 2: of the rand.

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Speaker 5: HM.

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Speaker 4: There's a lot that is uncertain and also out of

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Speaker 4: our control and even out of the Reserve Bank control.

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Speaker 4: So it'd be very interesting to see how these dynamics unfold.

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Speaker 4: On our end, we think the market always reverts to fundamentals,

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Speaker 4: so for oil prices, for example, unless something really bad

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Speaker 4: happens between the US and Iran. We think that the

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Speaker 4: fundamentals will take form again. People will start focusing on

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Speaker 4: the fact that there's an oversupply in the market, and

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Speaker 4: maybe prices will go back to around sixty two and below.

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Speaker 4: So that's what we hope to see. But a lot

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Speaker 4: really is quite uncertain and out of our control.

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Speaker 2: The Reserve Bank's target is now three percent, As you say,

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Speaker 2: you would expect inflation belower than it is now. Is

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Speaker 2: there scope for a cut?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 4: You know, the Reserve Bank showed us such relative caution

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Speaker 4: at the start of the year. I think the inflation

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Speaker 4: numbers are not the main issue here. So we think

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Speaker 4: that when you look at inflation and the projections around inflation,

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Speaker 4: especially by analysts and market participants, you will generally get

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Speaker 4: the sense that there is those space to cut interest rates.

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Speaker 4: I think weather Reserve think may be a little bit

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Speaker 4: more cautiously around overall economy wide expectations around inflation, you know,

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Speaker 4: and then still trying to entrenche that in the system

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Speaker 4: is something that might keep monetary policy conservative. But we

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Speaker 4: hope that it won't just be the work of monetary

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Speaker 4: policy or even interest rates. It should also be the

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Speaker 4: work of structural reforms bringing the cost of doing business

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Speaker 4: in South Africa down, improving the operating environment, and I

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Speaker 4: think that's what you know, the Soula is all about.

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Speaker 4: And hopefully we see those games coming through faster rather

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Speaker 4: than later, and that will also help to keep you know,

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Speaker 4: overall inflation in this economy.

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Speaker 2: Low coket so Mano, really appreciate the time. Thank you,

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Speaker 2: FMB senior economists. Just going to cut up ost six

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Speaker 2: on the Money Show. The main driver of food price

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Speaker 2: inflation at the moment is meat prices. The foot and

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Speaker 2: mouth outbreak pushing beef prices up by around thirty percent,

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Speaker 2: port prices up by nearly twenty percent. Doctor Fricky Marie

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Speaker 2: is the CEO of the National Red Meat Producers Organization.

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Speaker 2: Pretty good evening, Thank you for your time. We know

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Speaker 2: foot and mouth is it's a crisis. It's hurting farmers.

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Speaker 2: We're now seeing these and really staggering price increases.

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Speaker 6: Well it's Stephen all and thanks for having me. Yes,

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Speaker 6: the recent past was was absolute nightmare with food and

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Speaker 6: health when you consider farmers. But I think if you

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Speaker 6: look at the prices, food and health is also hurt

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Speaker 6: in consumers as you have just mentioned beef prices of

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Speaker 6: thirteen percent. I think, Stephen, what's important is this thirteen

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Speaker 6: percent is basically year on year. So if we go

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Speaker 6: back a few months, then we saw that inflation right

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Speaker 6: or the year and year right for beef was over

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Speaker 6: the twenty percent. So even though thirteen percent is still lie,

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Speaker 6: it's actually busy easing back. The second thing that we

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Speaker 6: have to keep in mind. Last year, this time around February,

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Speaker 6: we saw the carcus prices of beef and lamps start

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Speaker 6: to increase sharply as we win. Currently we are in

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Speaker 6: a decrease in cycle due to a number of factor

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Speaker 6: food and mouths exports at a limited et cetera. So

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Speaker 6: I think the inflation or the year on year increase

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Speaker 6: four for eight meat is going to come down relatively

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Speaker 6: quickly over the next couple of months.

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Speaker 2: Do you see a lot less demand for red meat

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Speaker 2: when prices are so much higher? People are very price

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Speaker 2: sensitive at the moment, have been for a while. We

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Speaker 2: like our meat, of course, but do you think, I mean,

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Speaker 2: do you see a change in what people are buying

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Speaker 2: when the price goes up so sharply over the course

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Speaker 2: of the year.

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Speaker 6: Well, Stephen, I think last year we were actually quite

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Speaker 6: surprised before the big Foot and health outbreak of May

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Speaker 6: when it really started to spread. We actually saw the

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Speaker 6: sprits increase from February and it was when the interest

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Speaker 6: rights starts to come down or to decrease, and we

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Speaker 6: see we saw higher the month for beef for eight meat,

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Speaker 6: beef and lamb. And even though the prices were shockingly

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Speaker 6: high on the caucus prices were forty percent year on

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Speaker 6: year higher at some period last year on these prices

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Speaker 6: on average about fifty percent year on the air the meats,

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Speaker 6: it's still sold. The prices never come down. Now the

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Speaker 6: figure for January is on the back of relative why

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Speaker 6: Deceimber figures and the prices. They cannot just drop the prices,

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Speaker 6: so their mount actually stay quite good at that stage.

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Speaker 6: We see in January and now in February we see

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Speaker 6: lower the mount, but we think it will pick up

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Speaker 6: the gains from March into the fist season around.

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Speaker 2: Easter when people you know, I mean, do you find

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Speaker 2: that people actually do move to chicken they substitute, and

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Speaker 2: if they do, do you find it quite tough to

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Speaker 2: get that market share back?

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Speaker 6: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, definitely. The thing is even a very

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Speaker 6: good example is if cowvi are goes only one hundred

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Speaker 6: time to kilogram tomorrow, I'm not going to buy it

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Speaker 6: because we never look at it. It is too extinct.

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Speaker 6: And that is how consumer work. As soon as you

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Speaker 6: cannot afford landing moves to beef, he cannot afford it,

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Speaker 6: he moves to balk or poultry and thens keet used

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Speaker 6: to eating it. Now, last year we actually saw consumers

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Speaker 6: coming back when the interest rate starts. And I think

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Speaker 6: there was just so many years of relatives I interest rates,

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Speaker 6: low spinable income. When they started to feel the money

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Speaker 6: in the pocket, they started to buy it by rape

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Speaker 6: meat a bit more again, and we hope that had

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Speaker 6: burnt a last for the cycle of performers. But now

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Speaker 6: we definitely see it. Once during COVID, we want a

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Speaker 6: lot of consumer as everyone was at home, had a

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Speaker 6: lot of income as you cannot go to restaurants, et cetera.

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Speaker 6: And that demand for it it was crazy. And after

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Speaker 6: that it dropped and now we start to pick it

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Speaker 6: up slowly again, so we hope we can keep the

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Speaker 6: interest there.

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Speaker 2: I keep hearing that farmers are furious at government over

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Speaker 2: the foot and mouth outbreak, and I have no doubt

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Speaker 2: that's true. There was the announcement in parliament yesterday from

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Speaker 2: the Agricultural Minister John Stienaesen. He's expecting a shipment of

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Speaker 2: a million vaccine doses. Is all of that? I mean?

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Speaker 2: Is that going to be enough? Do we still need

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Speaker 2: more other interventions from government?

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Speaker 6: Stephen? I think as an industry, we are extremely grateful

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Speaker 6: that a one million is finally a year and that

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Speaker 6: we can start to vaccinate at the larger scale. The

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Speaker 6: fact of the matter is, first that one million doses

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Speaker 6: only come into the country over the weekend. Then they

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Speaker 6: still have to get into animals, so the plan should

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Speaker 6: be rolled out how to get him into animals. And

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Speaker 6: then the second thing is we will need about fourteen

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Speaker 6: million doseses just to vaccinate our country once. Then they

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Speaker 6: have to be vaccinated six months later, so we're talking

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Speaker 6: about twenty eight million doses in a year's time, So

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Speaker 6: there's still a lot of vaccines needed. The one million,

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Speaker 6: I want to say it more than a dropping a bucket,

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Speaker 6: but at least it is a start. But there's still

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Speaker 6: a lot of work that need to be done to

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Speaker 6: roll this vaccine out, then to really really stop the

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Speaker 6: spreading of the virus.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Fricky Marie, thank you very much. Indeed, CEO of

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Speaker 2: the National Red Meats Produces organizations. Have you has anyone

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Speaker 2: in your family given up red meat simply because of

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Speaker 2: the price. Are you moving to something else? Are you're

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Speaker 2: looking forward to when maybe the price sort of returns

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Speaker 2: to normal? Your thoughts please? Seven two one seven two.

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Speaker 3: The Money Show with Stephens seven two seven.

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Speaker 2: Twenty one After six Marafe Resources confirming today it's been

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Speaker 2: able to restart its Lion smelter in steel worked in

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Speaker 2: half of its capacity has been recommissioned. It follows an agreement.

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Speaker 2: This is for the moment, an interim agreement that it

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Speaker 2: will pay a lower rate for electricity RP full Art

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Speaker 2: is the CEO for Glenn or alloways the RP. Good evening.

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Speaker 2: I think this is the first smelter to start under

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Speaker 2: this new price agreement. How long can it operate for

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Speaker 2: under these conditions at this price?

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Speaker 7: Good evening, Yes, Stephen, I must say it was really

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Speaker 7: great news for us. You would have known that all

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Speaker 7: our furnaces were down for the last six months, and

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Speaker 7: after this interim relief was announced. This gave us the

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Speaker 7: opportunity to now restart Lion, I mean the MPa and

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Speaker 7: you know, negotiated by this agreement of eighty seven cents

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Speaker 7: is definitely sufficient enough for us to start Lion smelter.

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Speaker 7: And we did, you know, we did get this relief

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Speaker 7: for about one hour, you know, one year from the

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Speaker 7: first of January. But obviously, working back, we are going

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Speaker 7: to restart all the furnaces we've started one. We will

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Speaker 7: be starting the rest as well within the next couple

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Speaker 7: of weeks, and yes, then we will be running. And

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Speaker 7: I can tell you that it's really great news for

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Speaker 7: us as a business.

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Speaker 2: As I understand that what you really need is electricity

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Speaker 2: over the longer term at sixty two cents the killer

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Speaker 2: one hour? Are you still in discussions with I mean,

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Speaker 2: I presume it's not just Eskim. I presume it's people

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Speaker 2: in government two to get to that point.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, Stephen, I mean I can also say that we've

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Speaker 7: been really working very well with government, like you said, Eskham,

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Speaker 7: specifically Dan, you know, the CEO, and then alside the

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Speaker 7: Minister of Electricity. We've all been working very hard to

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Speaker 7: get to the sixty two. Unfortunately, our time's running out.

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Speaker 7: I am in a section one eighty nine for Bossic

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Speaker 7: smelter and also Vonncup smelter, and we are expecting to

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Speaker 7: get the sixty two within the next week. Also otherwise

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Speaker 7: we unfortunately will have to execute on that six and

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Speaker 7: one ninety nine, but we are really hopeful and at

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Speaker 7: sixty two I can then restort all the smelters.

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Speaker 2: That's I mean, that would be amazing the way it's

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Speaker 2: all working. I mean, nurses said other Escum customers should

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Speaker 2: not have to subsidize smelters. I mean, is it coming

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Speaker 2: from government? Are you able to say? Is that all

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Speaker 2: being properly worked out? I still, I mean, I keep

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Speaker 2: asking this question, I get different answers, and frankly, I'm

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Speaker 2: not sure what's going on.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, now, Steve, and I can tell you that this

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Speaker 7: is actually a very good question. We are working and

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Speaker 7: you know, I can't tell you that that within the industry, government,

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Speaker 7: you know, ESCAM ourselves putting putting a lot of energy

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Speaker 7: together to try to find the solution. There is definitely

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Speaker 7: a solution, and the solution will not be to the

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Speaker 7: determent of any citizen, first of all, or any other business.

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Speaker 7: I think you know, we did make this very clear

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Speaker 7: that whatever solution that they give us must be sustainable.

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Speaker 7: I mean, it's just ridiculous to think that we can

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Speaker 7: get sixty two cents pe quilo whatew the rest of

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Speaker 7: South Africa spuying three you know three them something, and

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Speaker 7: you know that that would definitely not be you know, sustainable. So, yes,

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Speaker 7: we're all working towards a solution. There is a possible solution.

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Speaker 7: The details obviously you still need to be you know,

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Speaker 7: thrashed out.

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Speaker 2: Yes you can, you can say yes, no, no comment.

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Speaker 2: But I mean there's been a lot of talk about

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Speaker 2: restarting older col fired power stations. ESCAM actually has more

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Speaker 2: generating capacity than it needs at the moment, and that

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Speaker 2: that would be I say this with no special knowledge,

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Speaker 2: but the obvious solution.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean definitely, that is definitely. Part of the

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Speaker 7: solution is that if you can have col on the

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Speaker 7: one side, then you can convert into electrons and then

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Speaker 7: you just use electrons. That's exactly you know, the whole

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Speaker 7: concept behind it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yuppy for thanks very much. Indeed, I think I'm

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Speaker 2: getting closer to an answer to my question. The CEO

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Speaker 2: at Glen Coy alloways a butt good news there yuppie,

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 8: The Money Show, the Market Chris.

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Speaker 2: Stewart is the portfolio manager at ninety one. Fascinating to

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Speaker 2: watch what's been happening with gold chairs today, even though

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Speaker 2: the gold price hasn't necessarily gone up very much, but

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Speaker 2: we've just seen so many many results coming through and

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Speaker 2: that's mainly the reason for that. So Chris Stewart actually

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Speaker 2: with us now on the Money Show, Chris, good evening.

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Speaker 2: I mean to see what's happening with gold companies. You

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Speaker 2: had Pan African Resources, you have DRD Gold. That's what

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Speaker 2: I'm missing, But I mean just stagger to see and

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Speaker 2: I suppose entirely expected to see what their profits have

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Speaker 2: been doing.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, good evening, Stephen, Hopefully you can hear me. We

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Speaker 5: had DRD showing headline earnings pushare up ninety eight percent.

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Speaker 5: Let's just say headline earnings push share doubling for the

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Speaker 5: first half of their financial year. And that's despite gold

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Speaker 5: production in fact being done by nine percent year on

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Speaker 5: year with a forty three percent increase in the gold price.

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Speaker 5: So you're actually seeing gold chairs do what gold chares

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Speaker 5: should do, and that's giving you a leveraged play as

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Speaker 5: an investor. On the gold price too often in the past,

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Speaker 5: South African gold chairs have given you exposure to the

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Speaker 5: gold price, but not necessarily any leveraged outcome. Pan African

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Speaker 5: Resources even more significant. Headline earnings pushare up almost sevenfold

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Speaker 5: year on you, and that's as a result of a

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Speaker 5: higher realized gold price and indeed, in their case a

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Speaker 5: higher gold production as well. And that's despite they're all

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Speaker 5: in sustainable cost or the cost of getting the metal

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Speaker 5: out of the ground, increasing by twelve percent on a

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Speaker 5: year on year basis. So despite the fact that you've

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Speaker 5: seen costs inflation significantly ahead of the local inflation rate,

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Speaker 5: you are seeing these very very significant increases in earnings.

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Speaker 2: You've seen a maiden interim.

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Speaker 5: Dividend being proposed by Pan African Resources. You've seen a

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Speaker 5: dividend coming out of id d ID in fact now

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Speaker 5: and in their cash position, and Pan Afican Resources indicating

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Speaker 5: that by the time they actually report these results at

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Speaker 5: the end of February, they will also be in a

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Speaker 5: net cash position on balance sheets. So you've got no debt,

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Speaker 5: you've got businesses that are currently splitting a lot of cash,

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Speaker 5: and you've got a round goal price that in all

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Speaker 5: likelihood is going to continue going up relative to obviously

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Speaker 5: historically the levels that they've just reported upon.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it sounds a bit like a fair retail,

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Speaker 2: which is a nice way to segue into inflation, because

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Speaker 2: if you'd said two years ago inflation is three and

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Speaker 2: a half percent, we had an economist half an hour

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Speaker 2: ago who told us they expected it to be lower,

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't have believed you.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, you know, the inflation number did in

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Speaker 5: fact chick up by ten basis points relative to the

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Speaker 5: previous month, and was in fact slightly higher than the

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Speaker 5: market had been hoping for.

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Speaker 2: A couple of.

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Speaker 5: Factors driving that, predominantly on the food front, and a

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Speaker 5: couple of items within services inflation, financial services costs going

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Speaker 5: up a little bit, hotels going up a little bit,

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Speaker 5: and you know, we've still got probably a little bit

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Speaker 5: of persistency in food inflation, particularly with what's happening in

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Speaker 5: the you know, with the foot.

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Speaker 2: Math outbreak locally.

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Speaker 5: But you know, despite the fact that inflation was ten

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Speaker 5: basis points higher than expected, it's still you know, at

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Speaker 5: reasonably encouraging levels by historic standards, the north of the

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Speaker 5: three percent that the monetary authorities are now targeting. But

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Speaker 5: probably enough in it for them to give the much

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Speaker 5: much long for I guess a red cut that we

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Speaker 5: might have been expecting to see at the beginning of

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Speaker 5: the year and we didn't. March, we got another NPC

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Speaker 5: meeting and hopefully we see a twenty five basis point

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Speaker 5: cut coming through.

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Speaker 2: Then retail trade sales up two point six percent year

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Speaker 2: on year, down by zo point four percent compared with November.

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Speaker 2: We're finally beginning to get a sense of what happened

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Speaker 2: over the Christmas period. Yeah, I guess, you know, another nice.

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Speaker 5: Segue into the fact that maybe we do need a

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Speaker 5: twenty five bases point rate cut because we're seeing retail's

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Speaker 5: health continuing to disappoint. I don't think this number was

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Speaker 5: any great surprise. We've seen trading updates out of many

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Speaker 5: of the retailers for this exact period, the period ending

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Speaker 5: City first December twenty twenty five, and we've seen almost

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Speaker 5: uniformly that you know, these sales updates have been disappointing.

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Speaker 5: That the consumer environment is still very, very tough, and

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Speaker 5: I guess a couple of factors outside of that, you know,

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Speaker 5: outside of purely some element of consumer distress also driving

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Speaker 5: a negative retail cells out come, and that's, you know,

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Speaker 5: partly because people are buying cheap, important stuff online and

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Speaker 5: that's replacing some of the domestics who reported retail cells.

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Speaker 5: And we are seeing an increasing proportion of the consumer

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Speaker 5: bucket consistently being dedicated towards some of the gaming and

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Speaker 5: online gambling pursuits, which we all know is merely a tax.

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Speaker 8: On those people who don't necessarily understand mathematics.

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Speaker 2: Chrise Stuard, Thank you, portfolio manager at ninety one. Just

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Speaker 2: after six thirty, What's Upped?

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Speaker 3: Stephen on seven two, seven oh two one seven oh.

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Speaker 2: Two The Money Show with Stephen Krusis has brought to

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Speaker 2: you by Abscess cib Discover the latest trends shaping digital

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Speaker 2: assets across Africa. Download the apps Africa Digital Assets Insights

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty five. It's twenty two minutes now to seven.

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Speaker 2: I'm still, I think, not quite ready to sort of

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Speaker 2: accept that Clem Sunter has passed away. I was lucky

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Speaker 2: enough to know him personally, to work with him. I first,

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Speaker 2: of course came across and as I'm sure you did,

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Speaker 2: listening to him on the radio reading what he had written,

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Speaker 2: hearing about this person who was a scenario planner before

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Speaker 2: scenario planning really existed. You may remember some of the

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Speaker 2: phrases the high road and the low road, all sorts

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Speaker 2: of different ways of trying to understand what was going

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Speaker 2: to happen in the future. Now so many people are

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Speaker 2: in that space, but at the time, I think in

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Speaker 2: South African terms, he probably rarely pioneered it. And I

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Speaker 2: was lucky enough to do events with him from time

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Speaker 2: to time, so it always seemed in a very interesting space.

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Speaker 2: And there are a few things that stand out about

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Speaker 2: Clem's Suner. The first is that, yes, he was that tall.

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Speaker 2: The second is that he was always incredibly kind thoughtful.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I know so many people in different WhatsApp

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Speaker 2: groups who've been telling stories about how they would fetch

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Speaker 2: him in the most beat up car there was. Here

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Speaker 2: was this person, former senior executive at Anglo American, etc.

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Speaker 2: Who wouldn't even notice, would just sort of arrive and

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Speaker 2: happily start talking and would talk, from what I could see,

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Speaker 2: literally to anyone about anything. I always found him very interesting,

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Speaker 2: and he was the expert, but would be happy to

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Speaker 2: hear the view of someone else. And let me just say,

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Speaker 2: not every expert is like that. The other thing that

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Speaker 2: I would say is that he would often tell a

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Speaker 2: story and it's worth retelling in Clem's honor, and the

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Speaker 2: story goes like this. You might not have known this,

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Speaker 2: but he did grow up in the UK and then

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Speaker 2: he went to university there. I think he went to Oxford.

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Speaker 2: And in one of his things, and I'm looking at Peter,

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Speaker 2: who knows a thing or two about music, as I

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Speaker 2: tell the story, he played in a university band. Lots

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Speaker 2: of people do at university, and he his band and

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Speaker 2: another band did a dance together, as in you know,

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Speaker 2: they performed at a dance, a small university ball, and

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Speaker 2: they all signed the program, all four of them, and

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Speaker 2: Clem Sunter would often say, you know, the next week

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Speaker 2: the band we played with did all right, which is

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Speaker 2: why I have Mick Jagger's signature. The band they played

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Speaker 2: with was the Rolling Stones and Clem Shunter went on

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Speaker 2: to become one of the foremost scenario planners of our times.

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Speaker 2: And the other person who played was the Rolling Stones

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Speaker 2: at this event, and he would bring out this program

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Speaker 2: and show you very proudly the signatures and always thought

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Speaker 2: you would tell us that story because not just because

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Speaker 2: it was fun, but because it shows you that you

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Speaker 2: never really know where things are going to end up

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Speaker 2: in in a way, maybe that encapsulate Clem Shunter. Clem,

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna miss you. I'm going to miss your smile.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to miss your kindliness. I'm going to miss

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Speaker 2: your thoughts though and how to understand the future. Clem

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Speaker 2: Shunter passing away today he was eighty one.

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Speaker 6: Stephen is one.

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Speaker 2: X at at Stephen fourteen minutes now to seventh Time

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Speaker 2: Parliament hearing yesterday how the dt i SEE did not

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Speaker 2: pay out around half a billion round that was supposed

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Speaker 2: to go to international film productions. They'll film their projects here,

437
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:17,520
Speaker 2: they'll get a rebuked for about a quarter of what

438
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,800
Speaker 2: was spent here, supposed to create a situation in which

439
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,360
Speaker 2: money spent here would create jobs. In fact, MP's at

440
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:26,480
Speaker 2: one point I couldn't quite believe what I was reading

441
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,960
Speaker 2: in the news twenty four report they heard of elaked

442
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:33,080
Speaker 2: email in which one dt i SEE official told another

443
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:35,479
Speaker 2: to make it too hard for a production to comply.

444
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,639
Speaker 2: It seems because they felt they were overworked. Jack Devnrhin

445
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 2: it's the chair of the Essay Guild of Actors. Jack

446
00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:44,399
Speaker 2: good evening. I mean, I'm not in your business, but

447
00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 2: when I read that, my blood boiled. I can't imagine

448
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:47,440
Speaker 2: what you alls did.

449
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's a terrifying prospect, Stephen, because we are only

450
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,119
Speaker 7: given so many opportunities in order to make an application

451
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,679
Speaker 7: where our movie can qualify to you know, for the

452
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,440
Speaker 7: for the tax incentive rebate. The administration system is laid

453
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 7: out by the DTIC. Their adjudication team is appointed by

454
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:12,359
Speaker 7: the DTIC. There's very little transparency. So the fact that

455
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 7: we have to comply with the system where we now

456
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:19,200
Speaker 7: know that it's being manipulated against us, is an absolute insult.

457
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 2: I mean it seems what I don't understand is what

458
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,360
Speaker 2: the motive was. The money seem to have been there,

459
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,399
Speaker 2: certainly it was budgeted for at some point.

460
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 7: We see this happen quite often though, Stephen, with government

461
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 7: pretending that this is actually their money and it isn't.

462
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 7: This money is being made available through a legitimate incentive

463
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 7: scheme by Treasury itself. The DTIC doesn't own the money,

464
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 7: doesn't own the project. It owns the system by which

465
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 7: we are supposed to qualify. And this is the important point.

466
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 7: So we have petty bureaucrats and administrators who have positioned

467
00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:00,639
Speaker 7: themselves as gatekeepers, which ultimately has a detrimental effect on

468
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:02,160
Speaker 7: our production ability.

469
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 2: I mean, what it is to be in government and

470
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 2: have someone else's money to give away. You can make

471
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,880
Speaker 2: or break careers, sometimes businesses, and this is what's happening here.

472
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:12,959
Speaker 2: They just decided not to do it. I mean, what

473
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,959
Speaker 2: impact has this had because the rebate, as I understand it,

474
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,400
Speaker 2: hasn't been a ordered to anyone since twenty twenty four.

475
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,399
Speaker 7: The adjudication system has failed and that was one of

476
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 7: the main points to be made when we had our

477
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 7: demonstrations at the Parliament in Cape Town, followed by another

478
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 7: demonstration that the DTIC campus in Victoria as well. We

479
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 7: are reminding the DTIC that they are the ones responsible

480
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 7: for the system and they need to make it work

481
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 7: because until they do, we are facing a broad industry

482
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,919
Speaker 7: collapse with the losses of thousands of jobs and the

483
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 7: impulsion of the production industry itself.

484
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 2: What's quite bizarre about all of this is that we

485
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:55,960
Speaker 2: all know how important it is to create jobs. We

486
00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 2: have some natural resources and I'm not just talking about

487
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 2: the people talking about the scenery and talking I suppose

488
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 2: jack about Cape Town. But we have the ability to

489
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 2: really compete with anyone in the world in this game,

490
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:10,680
Speaker 2: and we're kind of just giving it away.

491
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 7: We have truly snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

492
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 7: We are an incredible country with supremely gifted talent, performance, creative, technical,

493
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 7: We have extremely hard working, very knowledgeable people working in

494
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,120
Speaker 7: the production industry. And as you say, that's aside from

495
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 7: the incredible scenery we have that's being marketed around the world.

496
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 7: But we have lost the impetus to those locations in

497
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 7: those countries, and not only around the world, but also

498
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 7: within Africa itself that have taken on a far more

499
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 7: assertive view of making their own incentive schemes available. And

500
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 7: this is why South Africa has failed to deliver on

501
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 7: its promise as being a favored destination for international productions

502
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:55,640
Speaker 7: as well.

503
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 2: So the DTC says they'll sort it all out. I

504
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:01,439
Speaker 2: would like to think that they will. I mean, do

505
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 2: you believe that they will? If the rebate worked, would

506
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 2: we be able to make Cape Tom's film again.

507
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,159
Speaker 7: You know, we've been in this industry long enough, Stephen.

508
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 7: You and I have spoken like this over the phone

509
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,919
Speaker 7: over many years and I don't believe anything until I

510
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 7: see it. It's encouraging, yes, but how do you build

511
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 7: a career or an industry based on hope? And I

512
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 7: think we are we may be far more mature and

513
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 7: perhaps a little bit more cynical not to believe anything

514
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 7: any minister says until there is actual delivery. So when

515
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 7: people say, yeah, we're gonna revise our systems, we can

516
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 7: automate systems. We're gonna find blended financing through you know,

517
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 7: through the IDC and the National Empowerment Fund, it's they're

518
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 7: making the right noises. But again from the actor's perspective,

519
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 7: you know, we say, even if producers received all their

520
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 7: rebates tomorrow, we still haven't had any guarantees or any

521
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 7: regulatory structures that will guarantee that actors are not going

522
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 7: to be left waiting while a producer effectively tries to

523
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:06,959
Speaker 7: cash flow his production on a rebate.

524
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 2: Sure. Jack devn Uran, thanks very much, indeed, Chair of

525
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 2: the Essay Guild of Actors. It is astonishing to hear

526
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 2: that this actually happened. I mean, really is amazing interesting

527
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 2: as well that you know the email came through. But

528
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 2: I kind of wonder if the DTC will act against

529
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 2: those officials, and from what I understand, there is still there.

530
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 2: Nine minutes to seven.

531
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 9: The Money Show Steve Protest is brought to you by

532
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 9: Abscess cib Discover the latest trendsy shaping digital assets across Africa.

533
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 9: Download the ABSTH Africa Digital Assets Insights twenty twenty five.

534
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 2: A new report out today suggesting that all of the

535
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 2: financial pressure, despite all of the financial pressure on new parents,

536
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 2: they're still prepared to actually pay up for brands and

537
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 2: products that they trust for their baby. Andrea Slaver is

538
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 2: the insights lead at Trade Intelligence. Andrea good evening, most

539
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,160
Speaker 2: of us will buy kind of whatever we ca and

540
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 2: whatever we can get away with when it comes to

541
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 2: food and clothes or by the cheaper products because you know,

542
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 2: it's fine. It doesn't matter. How different does it for

543
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 2: parents buying something for their baby.

544
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 10: It's such an interesting question. I mean, if we have

545
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 10: a look at our South African shopping habits, you're quite right.

546
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 10: South African shoppers love a good deal, specifically on food.

547
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 10: We see that in the clothing category as well. But

548
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 10: the one category where it's slightly different is wellness, which

549
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 10: includes personal care and baby products. I suppose can also

550
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 10: be linked to weldness, and it's almost like a halo

551
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 10: of benefits seen by investing in a quality product, playing

552
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 10: a little bit extra to ensure that you get the

553
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 10: benefits that you need.

554
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 2: I mean, if I go and look for a can

555
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 2: of baked beans for myself, any of the sort of

556
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 2: you know, anything I find in kind of a big

557
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 2: name supermarket chain is fine. But for baby formula or

558
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 2: a particular nappy, it seems that I suppose the bigger

559
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 2: factor is trust. I want something that I know my

560
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 2: baby is fine with. And I mean I remember that

561
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,239
Speaker 2: stage of my life very well. You'll do anything for

562
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 2: your baby to be fine, absolutely.

563
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 6: I mean you.

564
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 10: I am touching on an important consideration. Things are shifting though,

565
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 10: because the different categories of baby products. Let's have a

566
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 10: look at, for example, nappies, the our personal care products

567
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 10: like the shampoos and bass products, foods, and also formula.

568
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 10: Now at this point in time, there's only one category

569
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 10: where brand loyalty is particularly strong still, and that's what

570
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:51,120
Speaker 10: infant formula. So I believe that every parents, care giver,

571
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 10: mother would want to buy the best nutrition they can afford.

572
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 10: And that's absolutely true. I mean, our server results and

573
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 10: further research shows how even in the lowest of the

574
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 10: low income households, the caregivers invest in quality formula, spending

575
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 10: more than what you would expect on that. It's not

576
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 10: true though, for all the categories. I mean, with regards

577
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 10: to nappies. For example, I remember many years ago my

578
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 10: peers would not have traded down to a retailer brand

579
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 10: for affordability, because you trust the quality of the leading brands.

580
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 10: But we've seen a big shift. I mean, Clicks reported

581
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 10: that in twenty twenty three, for example, one out of

582
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 10: every four nappy sold in their store was a private label.

583
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 10: In twenty twenty five it increased, or that it's now

584
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 10: one out of every two nappy sold is a clique

585
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 10: private label. So certainly the retailers have gained reputation with

586
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 10: probably by improving the quality of their products competing with

587
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 10: the leading brands.

588
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 2: Formula is in because nappies, you can still have a

589
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 2: baby advert with a baby acute baby not crying in

590
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 2: a nappy, falling down on its bum and smiling because

591
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 2: it's wearing a nice nappy. But baby formula you can't

592
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 2: actually advertise. So it's an interesting natural experiment if I

593
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 2: can use that phrase because what you're seeing is that

594
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 2: people will try various formulas, they will decide on the

595
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 2: one that works, and nothing will shift them from that.

596
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 2: I suppose the result of the natural experiment without advertising

597
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 2: is that quality works.

598
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,479
Speaker 10: It's true, but you must understand also that type of

599
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 10: consumer behavior comes from a place of vulnerability, where a

600
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 10: mom has to choose a formula. And our research also

601
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 10: underlines the importance of practitioner recommendations. Now, technically you're not

602
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 10: allowed to make a recommendation of a particular brand, but

603
00:33:56,120 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 10: we do know what they're scientifically formulated in clinically tasted

604
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 10: formulas are, but a huge amount of recommendations also come

605
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 10: from friends and family, so a young mother might ask

606
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:15,840
Speaker 10: her mother which formula is best. So those legacy brands

607
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:20,840
Speaker 10: still hold strong, and certainly, you know, the practitioner recommendations

608
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 10: do falter through.

609
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 2: How do people buy nappies? It's a strange question, but

610
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 2: I mean they can be very expensive and it's incredible

611
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 2: how many nappies a baby can go through in a

612
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 2: day if it just sputs its mind to it. Do

613
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:36,839
Speaker 2: people buy and bulk? I mean it is like toilet paper,

614
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 2: It doesn't go often you know that they'll fit for

615
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 2: another three months? Do you buy as many as you can?

616
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 6: Do?

617
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 2: People buy them, you know, five at a time.

618
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 7: Got it?

619
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 10: All that means, based on disposable income, the moms that

620
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:52,799
Speaker 10: have enough to invest in bulk promotions and trust be

621
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 10: the retailers. And the online retailer is definitely cash in

622
00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 10: or capitalize on the opportunity to sell involve and the

623
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 10: moms work after rams per units eventually, although you know

624
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 10: it's a big investment upfront. So those that can afford

625
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,359
Speaker 10: it would do a bit of should I say, not

626
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 10: really panetry loading if it comes to nappies, but nappy

627
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 10: loading where in lower In some households, people are forced

628
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 10: to only buy what they can afford. So if you

629
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 10: go into the informal trade, it is very common to

630
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 10: see single nappies with a price for a single nappy

631
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 10: because that is all you can afford from day to day.

632
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 10: Imagine in the households where weekly wages are paid or

633
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 10: daily wages are all that's available to buy a nappy.

634
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 2: Word, I mean, it's interesting that this segment's still doing

635
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 2: very nicely despite such a sort of tight financial environment.

636
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 10: It's true, but it's all boils down once again to

637
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,840
Speaker 10: looking after the wellness of your baby, whether it's comfort

638
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 10: and good sleep because the nappy is effective all the

639
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 10: way up to good nutrition to form the the healthy

640
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,840
Speaker 10: brain and body of a baby.

641
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:05,240
Speaker 4: So those that's just say.

642
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 10: A really big role. But we see so many interesting

643
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 10: shifts between the categories. So from a supplier and from

644
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 10: a retater perspective, it's so important to understand the dynamics

645
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 10: in the shopper mindset and behaviors around those categories. For example,

646
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 10: like I've said, personal care versus snappies, food and formula,

647
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 10: because they are very different dynamics at play.

648
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,399
Speaker 2: Andrea Slava, thanks very much. Indeed, the insights lead at

649
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 2: Trade Intelligence, you'll talk about AI and its impact on

650
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 2: workers not necessarily as great as we might have thought,

651
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 2: your consumer ninja and misleading Google advertising, and don't forget

652
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 2: your extra special shape shift. Tonight, glorious are Robert at

653
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 2: seven o'clock.

654
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 1: And now The Money Show with Stephen Cribber on seven

655
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 1: o two.

656
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 2: Next, Well, little The Money Show with Stephen Curtis is

657
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,400
Speaker 2: brought to you by absins CIB Discover the latest trends

658
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 2: shaping digital assets across Africa. Download the absent Africa Digital

659
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 2: Assets Insights twenty twenty five, eight minutes after seven the

660
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 2: time Well speak to Graham Codrington about the role and

661
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:14,760
Speaker 2: the contribution that Clem Sunter made in just a moment.

662
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 2: Wendy Nola, your consumer Ninja. It's an extraordinary story she

663
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,720
Speaker 2: has about advertising and Google. You know, when you search

664
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 2: for a service and you search for a particular brand

665
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 2: because that's the brand that you want, and you end

666
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 2: up somewhere else entirely with their competitor. How that happens?

667
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 2: And then really looking forward to speaking to Glorious several

668
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 2: but the co founder and group chief executive officer of Whiphold,

669
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 2: a real pioneer. But I'll also ask her how the

670
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,720
Speaker 2: sort of world has changed and where South Africa needs

671
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 2: to go, particularly to help younger people. Your views, of course,

672
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,399
Speaker 2: your memories of Clem center on seven two seven oh two,

673
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:50,799
Speaker 2: one seven oh two.

674
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:55,839
Speaker 3: The Lonely Show with Stephen Krudis live on ninety two

675
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 3: point seven and one six them streaming on the Prime

676
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:00,080
Speaker 3: Media Plus.

677
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 1: Now and DStv channel eight five six. The Mind the

678
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 1: Show Business.

679
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 2: Unusual Well joined now by Graham Codrington, someone who has

680
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 2: made a name for himself as a forecaster. As you know,

681
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 2: he's at today tomorrow Global But Graham, thank you for

682
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 2: agreeing to do this. I thought it was important to

683
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 2: talk about Clam Center and in a way the role

684
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 2: of strategic foresight, because certainly for me, he was someone

685
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:31,280
Speaker 2: who taught me what that was and the first person

686
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 2: I'd ever heard of in South Africa to talk about

687
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 2: scenario planning. Graham, good evening. He played an immense role.

688
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 11: Yes, good evening, Stephen. It's really sad news to hear

689
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 11: the passing of Cleam. He's one of South Africa's great

690
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 11: and really made a name not only in South Africa

691
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 11: but on the global stage. I think being one of

692
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 11: the first non Chinese consultants to the Chinese government, I

693
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 11: think that deserves to be applauded on anyone's CV. But

694
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:05,879
Speaker 11: of course I think in South Africa is most well

695
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 11: known all the way back to the nineteen eighties and

696
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 11: nineties for his views on the future of the country,

697
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,200
Speaker 11: and I think giving many of us, especially me as

698
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 11: a young person, just a picture of how to picture

699
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 11: the future and how to think about good and bad

700
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 11: and up and down scenarios and then making the choice

701
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 11: for what he called the high Road. And yes, really

702
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 11: sad news of his passing, but what a legacy he

703
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 11: has to leave.

704
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 2: I mean, this all goes back to a man called

705
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 2: Charles Handy, to Shell, to the London Business School. I

706
00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:45,839
Speaker 2: mean claim was kind of involved in all sorts of things.

707
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:51,399
Speaker 11: Well, it really is interesting and I think today I

708
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:55,799
Speaker 11: think scenario planning and strategic foresight is fairly well established

709
00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 11: as a profession and as essentially a require for government

710
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,720
Speaker 11: and business. But you're right, Charles Handy was the first

711
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 11: person who I think is credited with doing it professionally.

712
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 11: He worked for Shell and back in the nineteen fifties

713
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,839
Speaker 11: just asked the question that every other person at SHALL

714
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 11: laughed at and said, but what happens when the oil

715
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 11: runs out? And he didn't let it go as a question,

716
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 11: and Shell eventually said, well, give us some pictures, tell

717
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 11: us what it might look like, and he pioneered what

718
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 11: today we call scenario planning. After leaving Shall, Charles went

719
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 11: and founded the London Business School. And essentially the concept

720
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 11: of a business school is to give business leaders these

721
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 11: ideas about the future so that you can be more

722
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 11: deliberate and conscious and make sure that you're not just

723
00:40:51,520 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 11: making it up as you go along, and Clem really

724
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 11: picked up those concepts and in the nineteen eighties and

725
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 11: nineties worked for Anglo American. He did the same thing

726
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 11: for Anglo American around the issues obviously of gold and

727
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 11: other natural resources, and really helped Anglo American to look

728
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:18,280
Speaker 11: both at long term strategy and expanding the group and

729
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 11: taking the group out of South Africa and making it

730
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:26,400
Speaker 11: a global a global group, but also helping South Africa

731
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:30,399
Speaker 11: as a nation to think more about what we were

732
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 11: capable of doing and being and became a very important voice,

733
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:38,759
Speaker 11: I believe, towards the end of the nineteen eighties and

734
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 11: through the nineteen nineties, I know, helping people in government

735
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:47,720
Speaker 11: to think through different scenarios and his probably most famous

736
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 11: book High Road, Low Road, which was really a powerful

737
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 11: vision of what could go wrong in South Africa if

738
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 11: we didn't make the good and best choice along the

739
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:04,879
Speaker 11: way as we ended apartet and I really believe that

740
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 11: contribution needs to be absolutely recognized for what it was

741
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:13,360
Speaker 11: for people on all sides of the political divide. I

742
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 11: think it claim was just a clear voice about making

743
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 11: good choices for the future and living out the best

744
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:23,280
Speaker 11: hopes that we have for the future.

745
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 2: I wonder sort of looking back now, and I was

746
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:31,360
Speaker 2: very young, younger than new Graham. And you think of

747
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 2: the phrase high road, low road, and sometimes as a forecaster,

748
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:37,359
Speaker 2: when you say it could be like this or it

749
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 2: could be like that, you're actually influencing the decisions people make,

750
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 2: which means as a forecast, you're actually trying to influence

751
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 2: the future. And I don't know if you thought of

752
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 2: it like that, I can't imagine claim would have had

753
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 2: the sort of maybe arrogance it might require. I don't know.

754
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,320
Speaker 2: I can't see it in his being. But the idea

755
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:58,399
Speaker 2: of saying this is how great things could be if

756
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:01,440
Speaker 2: we do these things, he must concentrate the minds of

757
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:02,720
Speaker 2: decision makers.

758
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 11: I think that is that. I think you've phrased it nicely,

759
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:11,400
Speaker 11: that there's a little bit of the titripe, because neither

760
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:16,160
Speaker 11: myself nor Clem or any He has a whole team

761
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 11: and his latest work was called The Mind of a Fox,

762
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 11: and he and he's built a global team now around that,

763
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 11: and then they will be carrying on his work. And

764
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:28,800
Speaker 11: you know, none of us would claim to predict the future.

765
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 11: You can't predict the future.

766
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 2: But what you.

767
00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 11: Can do, and Clem morphed the work that he was

768
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 11: doing into what he called flags, and these flags would

769
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:45,759
Speaker 11: basically be if you imagine semophour flags to send messages.

770
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:48,799
Speaker 2: Across two different.

771
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 11: People, and there might be a green flag that indicates

772
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 11: things are going well, in a red flag that indicates

773
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 11: things are going badly. That was the role, and that

774
00:43:57,160 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 11: is the role of strategic foresight, not to try and

775
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 11: pred decked what might happen, but to look for the

776
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:10,280
Speaker 11: triggers and the pivot points that indicate that things are changing.

777
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 11: And when you begin to see those deep structural shifts

778
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:18,920
Speaker 11: taking place, to then kind of raise the alarm and

779
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:21,839
Speaker 11: raise a green flag if it's a nice opportunity, raise

780
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:24,359
Speaker 11: a red flag if it's a threat, and then of

781
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:28,720
Speaker 11: course the message that flows immediately after that without arrogance,

782
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 11: I would hope, would be that actually we get to

783
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:35,840
Speaker 11: choose some of these things as well. We're not just

784
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 11: victims of global circumstance. We get to make choices, and

785
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 11: those people who are in positions, whether they're in government

786
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 11: or business or in other parts of society, if they're

787
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 11: in positions to make choices that can influence which road

788
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,840
Speaker 11: we then take well, then you should be awake and

789
00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 11: alert and aware of your choices and make good. And

790
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 11: that really was Kelem's whole life with the most beautiful laugh.

791
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 11: If I'm going to remember claim for anything, it is

792
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 11: not being able to complete his own jokes, because he

793
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,439
Speaker 11: was laughing at them before he got to the punchline,

794
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:19,880
Speaker 11: and that was always more funny than the joke at selfie.

795
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 11: He really was a character, and besides the deep insight,

796
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 11: just very humble and just wonderful in the way he

797
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 11: communicated his insights to the rest of us.

798
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 2: So honest, I think that's why he was laughing. When

799
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:36,799
Speaker 2: you talk about the high road and the lower road.

800
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:39,040
Speaker 2: One of the reasons that was so important was South

801
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:41,479
Speaker 2: Africa was going through so many changes at the time.

802
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 2: This was the nineteen nineties. I look at where the

803
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 2: world is now, I look at the work he was

804
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 2: doing at the Dubai Futures Forum and kind of think, well,

805
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 2: the world is going through similar kinds of changes, literally

806
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:58,719
Speaker 2: fundamental changes, where scenario planning suddenly there's a little bit

807
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:01,239
Speaker 2: of an advert for your job is suddenly perhaps more

808
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:03,320
Speaker 2: important than it's been in a very long time.

809
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 11: Well, of course, I think so it is what I do.

810
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 11: But I think you're right, and I think I'm probably

811
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 11: going to take a moment, I'll be honest, after the

812
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:20,279
Speaker 11: news coming through this afternoon, to just to go and

813
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:23,920
Speaker 11: pull one or two of Clem's books off of the bookshelf.

814
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 11: They're so easy to read and always feel up to

815
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:30,960
Speaker 11: date even in the moment. But I think what Clem

816
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 11: was trying to do again, not trying to predict any

817
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 11: particular thing or trying to make any predictions about exactly

818
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:43,280
Speaker 11: what would happen, but rather getting us to think about

819
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 11: the systems and structures of the world and how the

820
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 11: choices we make influence those systems. And if he was

821
00:46:55,200 --> 00:47:01,320
Speaker 11: an amazingly optimistic person about the future, obviously eyes wide

822
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 11: open to the fact that things could go badly, but

823
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 11: always believing that it was possible for us to choose

824
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 11: the high road each time. And that's what I'm going

825
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 11: to take away from my remembrance of him this evening

826
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:19,240
Speaker 11: that I think we are in one of those deep

827
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:24,880
Speaker 11: pivot moments again where voices like Clems was clear and

828
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:27,399
Speaker 11: loud at the end of the nineteen eighties, we need

829
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 11: similar voices today that are saying we're not just going

830
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 11: through small changes. We're going through deep ruptures in society,

831
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 11: and the choices we make in the next few months

832
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 11: and years are going to, you know, ripple through our

833
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 11: children and grandchildren's lives, and you know, we best take

834
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 11: that seriously, and we'd best not just make quick and

835
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 11: rash decisions, but step back, look at the big picture,

836
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 11: look for the high road, and even if it might

837
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:02,360
Speaker 11: be the difficult road to take, to choose it anyway.

838
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 11: And that was Claim's message in the nineteen eighties, and

839
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:07,799
Speaker 11: I think it's a message for the moment, even in

840
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:08,799
Speaker 11: even in our day.

841
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 2: Graham Coudrenton, thank you really to appreciate that, Futurists and

842
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:16,719
Speaker 2: partner tomorrow today joining me in paying tribute to the

843
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 2: late Clem Center The Money Show, Consumer Ninja. So, I

844
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 2: don't know if you've had this experience. I've had it

845
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 2: from time to time. You go online, you want a

846
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 2: specific thing, you're looking for a specific product, and instead

847
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 2: of the product you're looking for come up when you

848
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 2: google it. Instead you get something else, and so often

849
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 2: in fact arrival. I sometimes wonder how that works, and

850
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 2: kind of know vaguely how it works. I realize you

851
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:43,920
Speaker 2: pay for the response. But it does seem to me

852
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:47,360
Speaker 2: that in some cases people are actually paying for the

853
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:51,279
Speaker 2: hits of their rivals. Wendy Knowli your consumer Ninja's been

854
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:54,400
Speaker 2: looking at this, Wendy High You've got a particular case study,

855
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 2: and it's not about bicycles or spanners. It's about something

856
00:48:57,200 --> 00:48:58,000
Speaker 2: completely different.

857
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 12: It is, indeed, and it was a big story. And

858
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 12: this issue impacts a lot of small businesses as well

859
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:05,400
Speaker 12: as their customers.

860
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 8: Right.

861
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:09,880
Speaker 12: So this story blew up on TikTok just before Valentine's

862
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:12,440
Speaker 12: Day and I happened to see the video. So Durban

863
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:16,319
Speaker 12: North florists Roxanne Gordon, she and her mother bought this

864
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 12: long standing florists in Durban North called Flowers on Kensington.

865
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:25,080
Speaker 12: They kept the name. I think they kept their name anyway.

866
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 12: They Roxanne posted a tearful TikTok video on Thursday after

867
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 12: discovering that Valentine's Day orders meant for her shop were

868
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 12: ending up with the biggest player in the local flowers

869
00:49:37,239 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 12: game netflorist so someone she knew had done a Google

870
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 12: search for her business name, so it was the entire name.

871
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:48,800
Speaker 12: It wasn't Valentine's Flowers of general search. It was flowers

872
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:53,600
Speaker 12: on Kensington and he was directed to a net florist.

873
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 12: To net Florist's site, he didn't notice it said sponsored

874
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 12: in net roowst there. But because the search was flowers

875
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:04,319
Speaker 12: in Kensington and the words flowers flowers on Kensington came up,

876
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 12: he placed his order and then later the two of

877
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:10,560
Speaker 12: them found out that, you know, it actually paid his

878
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 12: money to net Flowers, So bigdal and she'd you know,

879
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:16,880
Speaker 12: gone to the market, bought all these flowers. You know,

880
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 12: it's bonanza day for florists everywhere, and so she did

881
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:24,880
Speaker 12: something she'd never done before. She only had one hundred

882
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 12: followers on TikTok at the time. She sat in her

883
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:30,760
Speaker 12: car and she told the story of what had happened,

884
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:33,239
Speaker 12: and she got a bit tearful during it. You could

885
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 12: see it was very authentic, very raw. She'd put huge

886
00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 12: effort into advertising for Valentine's Day on her social media platforms,

887
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 12: and then you know, obviously the thought of losing your

888
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 12: orders to need florist and if her customers being misled

889
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 12: was absolutely heartbreaking.

890
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:47,400
Speaker 7: Rough.

891
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 2: So how did it, I mean, how did it happen

892
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 2: like that?

893
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:49,759
Speaker 8: What?

894
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:51,240
Speaker 2: What did what happened? Within Google?

895
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:52,000
Speaker 6: Yeah?

896
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 12: No, so I'm not the greatest techie. Ford put my

897
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:59,799
Speaker 12: hand up for that, so I fortunately have been. You know,

898
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 12: had Netflorest's MD and co founder Ryan Basher as one

899
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:08,000
Speaker 12: of my contacts for a very long time, so I

900
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:09,759
Speaker 12: knew he was in Australia at the time and that

901
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:12,840
Speaker 12: the timing would work. So when Thursday evening, as he

902
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 12: was waking up the next morning, I sent him Roxanne's

903
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:20,360
Speaker 12: post and I asked, what just what you've asked what

904
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:23,440
Speaker 12: happened there? So he said that like most businesses, they

905
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:27,840
Speaker 12: used Google's ur algorithms to decide keywords to bid on

906
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:30,759
Speaker 12: and then designed the marketing around that. He said, it's

907
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 12: not their practice to use another company's brand name directly,

908
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:37,480
Speaker 12: as in Flowers on Kensington. And by early Friday morning

909
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:41,319
Speaker 12: when I woke up, Netflorest had added what they called

910
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 12: negative keywords for Flowers on Kensington so that they could stop,

911
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:48,480
Speaker 12: as it's called, stop bidding on its bidding on keywords,

912
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:54,279
Speaker 12: so those that Roxanne's problem stopped, and the MD said

913
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:56,359
Speaker 12: that he was checking with Google to find out how

914
00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:57,960
Speaker 12: that had happened, how it slipped through.

915
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 2: So I mean, is this even because I mean I've

916
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:04,200
Speaker 2: done it, if you search for one brand of insurance,

917
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:05,880
Speaker 2: you get a whole lot of hits for all the

918
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:07,600
Speaker 2: other brands of insurance. And I don't know if you

919
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:10,960
Speaker 2: know this, but my word that advertised ferociously and it's

920
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 2: quite frustrating. So I mean, they're clearly bidding. I mean

921
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:16,440
Speaker 2: I known nothing about the insurance industry, but clearly this

922
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 2: is happening in all sorts of industries. Can people actually

923
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 2: bid on a competitor's name? So they can?

924
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:24,960
Speaker 12: And I mean this case sent me down a rabbit

925
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:27,880
Speaker 12: hole looking at what the legal situation is in South Africa.

926
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 12: So a landmark Supreme Court of Appeal ruling ten years

927
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:35,280
Speaker 12: ago Cochran Steel Products versus M Systems Group directly addressed

928
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 12: this and the court rule that bidding on a competitor's

929
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:42,560
Speaker 12: trademark or trade name as a keyword to trigger sponsored ads,

930
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:45,799
Speaker 12: as in this case is not automatically unlawful, which I

931
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:49,319
Speaker 12: found interesting. The judges said that Google's sponsored links are

932
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:53,440
Speaker 12: clearly marked as ads, and a reasonably observant user shouldn't

933
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 12: be confused into thinking that AD is from the original business.

934
00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:01,839
Speaker 12: Using arrivals AD registered trademark isn't unlawful undercommon law. They said,

935
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:04,800
Speaker 12: and he has the butt unless it leads to actual

936
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:09,280
Speaker 12: passing off, meaning real deception or confusion that misleads the public.

937
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:12,640
Speaker 12: And I think you could argue that happened certainly in

938
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:16,440
Speaker 12: the case of Roxanne's friend who googled what were the

939
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:19,239
Speaker 12: flowers on Kensington and suddenly landed up on a net

940
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 12: florist's side.

941
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:22,040
Speaker 2: I suppose. I mean, the legal test is kind of

942
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 2: a deception, and yeah, I mean that can be quite

943
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:27,760
Speaker 2: complicated one way or another to have an objective test

944
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 2: on that.

945
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:29,280
Speaker 8: Yeah.

946
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:31,640
Speaker 12: And also I mean a customer need to contest these

947
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:37,120
Speaker 12: things legally, and Roxannde and other small business owners might

948
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:40,520
Speaker 12: find that daunting. Interestingly, she told me that when she

949
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:43,640
Speaker 12: first took over the florist, she was trying to, you know,

950
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:46,120
Speaker 12: look at how they were doing online. And she said

951
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:50,840
Speaker 12: she saw then that net florist was using flowers on Kensington,

952
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 12: so she sent them an email to stop. And she

953
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:55,239
Speaker 12: was so busy with a new business that she let

954
00:53:55,320 --> 00:53:58,440
Speaker 12: it go. But anyway, it's now being stopped.

955
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:00,680
Speaker 6: For her.

956
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:03,520
Speaker 12: I mean, her argument is that her customers, at least

957
00:54:03,560 --> 00:54:07,000
Speaker 12: one was genuinely misled. They thought they were buying from

958
00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:07,960
Speaker 12: her little local shop.

959
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:10,320
Speaker 8: But they gave Netlarth.

960
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:15,000
Speaker 12: Their business instead, and I think if that confusion is widespread, legally,

961
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:17,080
Speaker 12: you could argue that that is passing off.

962
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 2: Sure. So what happened in the end, the video went viral.

963
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:23,440
Speaker 2: You saw it, lots of other people saw it. What

964
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:27,440
Speaker 2: happened for Rosanne? Did she get a bouquet?

965
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:29,480
Speaker 8: She got to make many bouquets.

966
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 12: Was a very rosy outcome for her, which you know,

967
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:34,480
Speaker 12: she wasn't even in her mind when she made that

968
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:39,239
Speaker 12: tearful video. So she got scores of commiserating responses to

969
00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:44,440
Speaker 12: that TikTok video, and among those were genuine offers, multiple

970
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:49,600
Speaker 12: offers of help from lawyers, from marketing professionals, Google experts,

971
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:52,520
Speaker 12: and all the rest. And she said, you know, so

972
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 12: she went from fearing that all the flowers she'd brought

973
00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:58,000
Speaker 12: from the market only her second Valentine's We're going to

974
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 12: go to waste because she wasn't going to get them

975
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:02,200
Speaker 12: the number of orders that she should have got. She

976
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:04,600
Speaker 12: went from that from having to on Friday make an

977
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:07,560
Speaker 12: emergency dash to the same market and buy a whole

978
00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:09,759
Speaker 12: lot more flowers to fulfill all the orders. So that

979
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:13,759
Speaker 12: is marketing that, as you know, you can't buy. But

980
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:16,719
Speaker 12: it also shows, you know, the viral support for that

981
00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:20,000
Speaker 12: communities have for small businesses when they feel that the

982
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:24,280
Speaker 12: big life is doing them down.

983
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:28,960
Speaker 2: And so if you're searching for a particular company, Flowers, Insurance,

984
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:30,840
Speaker 2: whatever it is, what's your advice then.

985
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:34,960
Speaker 12: Okay, So certainly having gone down this rabbit hole, the

986
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:37,040
Speaker 12: thing to do is look for look out for words

987
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:39,920
Speaker 12: sponsored or add that's true of anything, I mean, even

988
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:43,239
Speaker 12: with all the influences around, So look for that, and

989
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:46,960
Speaker 12: then always, always, for many reasons, verify that you are

990
00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:49,960
Speaker 12: l that's the website address up to the top, and

991
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:54,160
Speaker 12: see if it's not Flowers on Kensington and it says

992
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:57,360
Speaker 12: ned Florist or something else, you know, then you have

993
00:55:57,440 --> 00:56:00,640
Speaker 12: your answers. So don't don't do business on that. And

994
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:03,080
Speaker 12: also worth mentioning that I know, but at least one

995
00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:06,920
Speaker 12: other Florence Florist rather Bloomable and cape Ton that had

996
00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:09,000
Speaker 12: the exact same thing, and I've got the screenshot that

997
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:11,640
Speaker 12: show so the result is Bloomable and then above it

998
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:14,480
Speaker 12: and at Florist and above that sponsored. So you have

999
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:15,160
Speaker 12: to pay attention.

1000
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:17,840
Speaker 2: Indeed you have to just as always you have to

1001
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:20,440
Speaker 2: check everything, don't you Wendy Nola, thank you so much.

1002
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:23,880
Speaker 2: Really to appreciate your consumer Ninja. Very interesting just to

1003
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:26,319
Speaker 2: see how these stories span out. And there's always the

1004
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:28,960
Speaker 2: usual thing, check the small print.

1005
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:31,680
Speaker 8: The money show, shape shifters.

1006
00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:36,319
Speaker 2: It's twenty four minutes now to eight o'clock. Well, there

1007
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:39,040
Speaker 2: are some people who when you hear the name, you

1008
00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:41,080
Speaker 2: kind of know so much about them because they've been

1009
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:44,200
Speaker 2: part of our lives for so many years, and particularly

1010
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:47,000
Speaker 2: if they were if I can use the expression the

1011
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:50,120
Speaker 2: pioneer in something, and I have one of those people

1012
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:52,600
Speaker 2: sitting in front of me now, glorious. The Robert is

1013
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:56,040
Speaker 2: one of the people who started women investment Portfolio holdings

1014
00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:59,319
Speaker 2: on the JC were polled. She sits on and has

1015
00:56:59,360 --> 00:57:02,160
Speaker 2: sat on a very long list of boards, from Dnnell

1016
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:04,840
Speaker 2: to ad Core to Old Mutual to ned Bank. I

1017
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:06,879
Speaker 2: thought of reading them all out, but then you would

1018
00:57:06,880 --> 00:57:10,280
Speaker 2: have no time for the interview. So, Glauria, we've spoken

1019
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:12,239
Speaker 2: on the phone once or twice. I think this is

1020
00:57:12,239 --> 00:57:14,840
Speaker 2: the first time we've properly shaken hands. It's wonderful to

1021
00:57:14,840 --> 00:57:16,720
Speaker 2: meet you in person. Thank you so much for coming in.

1022
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 13: Thank you very much, stup And I'm surprised we weren't

1023
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:23,720
Speaker 13: shaking hands because I know so much about your name too.

1024
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:29,520
Speaker 2: Thank you, but nervous now so many of your online biographies.

1025
00:57:29,560 --> 00:57:31,160
Speaker 2: I had quite a lot of fun looking at your

1026
00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:33,720
Speaker 2: online biographies today because so many of them say the

1027
00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:35,320
Speaker 2: same thing. I don't know if you give them all

1028
00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:37,800
Speaker 2: the same one. Maybe they say you were born google

1029
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:40,560
Speaker 2: Leto in Cape Town, and then the next sentence is

1030
00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:43,200
Speaker 2: you've got to b comm Degree at the University of

1031
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:45,680
Speaker 2: the trans Sky, and I kind of can't help but

1032
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:50,320
Speaker 2: feel they're missing the interesting part of the story. You,

1033
00:57:50,840 --> 00:57:54,040
Speaker 2: I think grew up mostly in the Eastern Cape from

1034
00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:57,320
Speaker 2: what I could see. What kind of community were you

1035
00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:01,480
Speaker 2: growing up in? Because we can forget how much South

1036
00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:04,360
Speaker 2: Africa has changed in the last few years. In the

1037
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:05,760
Speaker 2: last forty years called.

1038
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:12,040
Speaker 13: It well they Cape Town is correct because my grandfather

1039
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:16,400
Speaker 13: left his home we were still young, and set up

1040
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:19,600
Speaker 13: home in Cape Town because I was a priest, and

1041
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:24,320
Speaker 13: at that moment, being a priest meant eben. The Royal

1042
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:27,240
Speaker 13: errors didn't have much of that unless we are Anglican

1043
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:31,600
Speaker 13: no Methodists, so we end up being Cape Town people.

1044
00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:35,840
Speaker 13: But he comes from Eastern Cape, the rural side of

1045
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:38,480
Speaker 13: Eastern Cape, and he was very keen for us not

1046
00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:42,760
Speaker 13: to forget that. He actually was quite anxious that we

1047
00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:46,080
Speaker 13: mustn't think well from Cape Town. So he was a

1048
00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:51,480
Speaker 13: true a migrant would ship his children and all of

1049
00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:56,680
Speaker 13: us to transguide the rural side of transfer. Next, my

1050
00:58:56,800 --> 00:59:01,320
Speaker 13: hometown being a pendane and no body knows town, but

1051
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:05,440
Speaker 13: our big town is Battleworth. But if we leave Bataweth

1052
00:59:05,520 --> 00:59:08,280
Speaker 13: to the wild course that is now my home. That's

1053
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:11,960
Speaker 13: where he came from. The Second thing is that Cape

1054
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:16,240
Speaker 13: Town didn't have good schools for blacks, and so our

1055
00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:21,800
Speaker 13: schooling for most families was Eastern Cape because the missionary

1056
00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:26,200
Speaker 13: schools were there. So anything about it blas touit Clattberry.

1057
00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:32,520
Speaker 13: Saint John's Showbury is all about those schools in the

1058
00:59:32,600 --> 00:59:36,720
Speaker 13: Eastern Cape which were strong, and we all, most of

1059
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:39,120
Speaker 13: us come from that. I ended up in Eastern Cape

1060
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:43,480
Speaker 13: in that's form, which is actually our real home, to

1061
00:59:43,520 --> 00:59:47,680
Speaker 13: be honest. So schooling ends up being a clod Borough

1062
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:54,480
Speaker 13: High School in a marble and Saint John's College in Omtata.

1063
00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:57,400
Speaker 13: Can I make a claim though on these two schools.

1064
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:04,040
Speaker 13: Clad Bor High School it's where Mandela came from, and

1065
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:09,640
Speaker 13: I claim that now Saint John's College it's Wherewan Baker

1066
01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:15,520
Speaker 13: came from. So I've given you two presidents. Stephen, please

1067
01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:16,480
Speaker 13: say thank you for that.

1068
01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:17,440
Speaker 2: Thank you.

1069
01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:20,640
Speaker 13: I do need that acknowledgement. But I need to chip

1070
01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:25,680
Speaker 13: in here on on Beggie because people from Hilltown, which

1071
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:30,240
Speaker 13: is now in Alice, they think that we're being a

1072
01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:35,040
Speaker 13: shame as Saint Johns to claim him. He was fired

1073
01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:40,640
Speaker 13: from Hilltown just before the school exams and his parents

1074
01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:44,720
Speaker 13: they took him to Saint John's to sit for the

1075
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:47,760
Speaker 13: metric exams, so that two weeks this is everything to

1076
01:00:47,840 --> 01:00:51,920
Speaker 13: us because his metrics certificate is Saint John's. But he

1077
01:00:52,040 --> 01:00:55,360
Speaker 13: really is a Hilltown boy. But look, we claim him.

1078
01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:57,880
Speaker 13: We've given you to presidents on ASTHMNA.

1079
01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:03,240
Speaker 2: Like imagine the arguments over over the dinner conversations about

1080
01:01:03,280 --> 01:01:06,640
Speaker 2: that and at the bride. You went to the University

1081
01:01:06,680 --> 01:01:09,600
Speaker 2: of Transky and then from what I could see, you

1082
01:01:09,640 --> 01:01:13,400
Speaker 2: want a scholarship to Rutgers in the US. This is

1083
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:16,640
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty one, I think it was. Yeah, yeah, I'm

1084
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:18,880
Speaker 2: trying to think of what the University of Transky was

1085
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:21,960
Speaker 2: like then and what Rutgers was like then, because it

1086
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:24,200
Speaker 2: must have been I mean, a different universe.

1087
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:28,360
Speaker 13: Yes, So University of transcribe we are in South Africa

1088
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:32,760
Speaker 13: because it was a branch of University of What first

1089
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:38,440
Speaker 13: and the University of Transfer then started immediately. But it

1090
01:01:38,640 --> 01:01:43,520
Speaker 13: was a night university, so I never had a campus

1091
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:47,520
Speaker 13: life in South Africa. So all my bucomers working during

1092
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:52,640
Speaker 13: the day and going to university at night, I missed

1093
01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:57,400
Speaker 13: all the stories of TEFP and what is it with

1094
01:01:57,640 --> 01:02:00,000
Speaker 13: a great whole I can't remember the names now where

1095
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:03,800
Speaker 13: people from forty and tel they speak fonlier, but their

1096
01:02:04,440 --> 01:02:07,280
Speaker 13: campus life. I didn't have that in South Africa because

1097
01:02:07,720 --> 01:02:11,720
Speaker 13: I went to a university where I could go at night.

1098
01:02:12,520 --> 01:02:16,840
Speaker 13: But going to the US for Rutgers that was now

1099
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:22,440
Speaker 13: a normal day university. But I was doing MBA at

1100
01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:25,640
Speaker 13: that time, and so yeah, I did have a bit

1101
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:28,680
Speaker 13: of campus life in the US. I missed a campus

1102
01:02:28,720 --> 01:02:32,120
Speaker 13: life here. So every time they talk about the campus life,

1103
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:36,440
Speaker 13: I'm envs. I missed it, and so Ruggers I went

1104
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:41,440
Speaker 13: for a scholarship in twenty one. I had finished my MBA,

1105
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:46,440
Speaker 13: my beacom and I went straight to the NBA in

1106
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:50,120
Speaker 13: a Rugers. Can I say, Stephen, It's the one thing

1107
01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:54,400
Speaker 13: I regret a lot that I did my MBA straight

1108
01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:58,400
Speaker 13: after my beacom I needed. If I were to do

1109
01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:02,840
Speaker 13: it now out enjoy an MBA degree, I would really

1110
01:03:02,960 --> 01:03:06,720
Speaker 13: encourage anyone to do some bit of work, because it

1111
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:10,840
Speaker 13: all becomes about just studying, studying studying. But MBA is

1112
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:14,720
Speaker 13: really truly meant for people with some bit of work experience.

1113
01:03:15,080 --> 01:03:15,600
Speaker 8: I miss that.

1114
01:03:16,600 --> 01:03:21,920
Speaker 2: It's interesting that you say that when after so much time,

1115
01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:23,680
Speaker 2: because you've clearly had time to reflect on it, and

1116
01:03:23,840 --> 01:03:28,720
Speaker 2: it's very important advice. So nineteen ninety four comes along.

1117
01:03:29,320 --> 01:03:30,760
Speaker 2: You'd worked in the United States.

1118
01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:31,160
Speaker 6: You worked.

1119
01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:32,960
Speaker 8: I worked in the US, Yes.

1120
01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:36,280
Speaker 2: For an oil company. I think it was a very

1121
01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:38,360
Speaker 2: different kind of corporate culture. I mean, I think of

1122
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:40,160
Speaker 2: an oil company in the eighties, and I think of

1123
01:03:40,200 --> 01:03:43,400
Speaker 2: the TV show Dallas. You know, I'm sure it wasn't

1124
01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:46,520
Speaker 2: like that, but a very different corporate culture. And you

1125
01:03:46,880 --> 01:03:48,520
Speaker 2: come back here and there must have been a very

1126
01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:53,120
Speaker 2: different sort of corporate culture. Our corporate culture was still

1127
01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:56,760
Speaker 2: exclusively white at the time. I imagine the oil industry

1128
01:03:56,800 --> 01:03:59,600
Speaker 2: was largely white men too in the US. But it

1129
01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:01,480
Speaker 2: must have been very interesting to compare the two.

1130
01:04:03,920 --> 01:04:07,480
Speaker 13: US is known for Hollywood and all of those things,

1131
01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:10,520
Speaker 13: and that's what we know about it. What people don't

1132
01:04:10,560 --> 01:04:15,080
Speaker 13: know about how hard the work ethic in the US.

1133
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:21,400
Speaker 13: So working at Eggs on Oil was the biggest experience

1134
01:04:21,480 --> 01:04:26,040
Speaker 13: for me because one I didn't expect it. Two because

1135
01:04:26,280 --> 01:04:31,400
Speaker 13: everybody there's quite a big number of MBA graduates in

1136
01:04:31,480 --> 01:04:34,919
Speaker 13: the US. You are not special there. You go in there,

1137
01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:38,600
Speaker 13: there's a whole full room full of manal MBAs. You're

1138
01:04:38,640 --> 01:04:42,200
Speaker 13: not anything unique, and therefore you're competing for the small space.

1139
01:04:43,080 --> 01:04:47,520
Speaker 13: And I always appreciate that because it's a dog in

1140
01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:52,800
Speaker 13: dog kind of thing, and it has formed the basics

1141
01:04:52,880 --> 01:04:56,480
Speaker 13: of my work ethic. Actually, I always appreciate the US

1142
01:04:56,520 --> 01:05:01,680
Speaker 13: because I have known it for the flies, the beautiful things.

1143
01:05:03,280 --> 01:05:04,120
Speaker 8: Is not like that.

1144
01:05:04,360 --> 01:05:08,920
Speaker 13: People are competing for the same attention because there's many

1145
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:14,760
Speaker 13: of these graduates under gread MBA, CPAs and so on,

1146
01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:17,200
Speaker 13: so it's highly highly competitive.

1147
01:05:17,760 --> 01:05:19,360
Speaker 8: It was a surprise for me.

1148
01:05:20,240 --> 01:05:23,200
Speaker 13: And nobody thinks that the US is a place we

1149
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:27,560
Speaker 13: can go to learn how to compete because we only

1150
01:05:27,640 --> 01:05:34,040
Speaker 13: know about the glamorous thing. The work ethic is extremely different.

1151
01:05:34,320 --> 01:05:37,560
Speaker 13: So coming back home, I come back home with that

1152
01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:44,640
Speaker 13: highly competitive, extremely tense competition amongst yourselves. So it's different

1153
01:05:44,800 --> 01:05:48,439
Speaker 13: in that sense. And here at home, the MBAs were

1154
01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:51,320
Speaker 13: still very few of us, and you come here a

1155
01:05:51,320 --> 01:05:54,400
Speaker 13: bit of a rockstar in the US was just one

1156
01:05:54,440 --> 01:05:55,000
Speaker 13: of the many.

1157
01:05:56,200 --> 01:05:57,520
Speaker 8: That's really my experience.

1158
01:05:59,840 --> 01:06:03,000
Speaker 2: So when you launched Whiphold, and you know the history

1159
01:06:03,120 --> 01:06:06,080
Speaker 2: sort of this says in one line, you know, Glorious

1160
01:06:06,240 --> 01:06:10,400
Speaker 2: Robert is a co founder of Whiphold nineteen ninety four

1161
01:06:10,560 --> 01:06:15,000
Speaker 2: on the JAS and it looks kind of easy, but

1162
01:06:15,080 --> 01:06:18,480
Speaker 2: I bet it wasn't. And I wonder what it was like,

1163
01:06:18,680 --> 01:06:21,040
Speaker 2: kind of being under the skin of that, what it

1164
01:06:21,160 --> 01:06:24,240
Speaker 2: was like really making it work. There must have been

1165
01:06:24,720 --> 01:06:28,680
Speaker 2: lots of difficult decisions. Was a very exciting time in

1166
01:06:28,720 --> 01:06:32,680
Speaker 2: South Africa. But there must also have been moments where

1167
01:06:32,680 --> 01:06:34,480
Speaker 2: you thought, sure, this is quite hard to do.

1168
01:06:35,800 --> 01:06:37,840
Speaker 8: It was much more harder than we thought.

1169
01:06:38,960 --> 01:06:42,360
Speaker 13: So when we started with Wendy and Louis and Naumche

1170
01:06:43,520 --> 01:06:45,120
Speaker 13: our drive was that shit.

1171
01:06:45,360 --> 01:06:47,240
Speaker 8: You know, with the.

1172
01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:51,840
Speaker 13: Transformation now is nineteen ninety four. The people who excluded

1173
01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:58,160
Speaker 13: before are now being included in the system. But wow,

1174
01:06:59,040 --> 01:07:03,200
Speaker 13: black men found it easy to just coexist with white

1175
01:07:03,200 --> 01:07:08,720
Speaker 13: men and both of them white and black. They forgot

1176
01:07:08,720 --> 01:07:13,880
Speaker 13: about women, and that was the sad part of it.

1177
01:07:13,880 --> 01:07:16,800
Speaker 13: Were shocked by this, and so when we formed, we

1178
01:07:16,960 --> 01:07:19,600
Speaker 13: pulled it was to correct that. To be honest that

1179
01:07:20,760 --> 01:07:24,440
Speaker 13: we're on our own. Our black brothers are comfortable with

1180
01:07:24,560 --> 01:07:30,040
Speaker 13: their white people and the business's male worldwide. Is not

1181
01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:34,200
Speaker 13: us a South African problem, and so let's just force

1182
01:07:35,000 --> 01:07:38,200
Speaker 13: the presence of women in the mainstream of the economy.

1183
01:07:39,040 --> 01:07:42,400
Speaker 8: And that's what we plled. We were trying to do. That

1184
01:07:42,640 --> 01:07:43,680
Speaker 8: is why.

1185
01:07:43,680 --> 01:07:47,600
Speaker 13: Stephen, we started it in a different way. We wanted

1186
01:07:47,720 --> 01:07:51,919
Speaker 13: to make sure that the numbers is the game. For

1187
01:07:52,080 --> 01:07:56,560
Speaker 13: us to force ourselves into these bodrooms, we needed to

1188
01:07:56,640 --> 01:08:00,520
Speaker 13: come in as a big number of volumes. So that's

1189
01:08:00,560 --> 01:08:05,520
Speaker 13: why you see us doing a public offer. A private

1190
01:08:05,600 --> 01:08:09,520
Speaker 13: public offer is to appeal to women that please. This

1191
01:08:09,640 --> 01:08:12,640
Speaker 13: thing is a battle, it is a war zone. We

1192
01:08:12,720 --> 01:08:15,600
Speaker 13: have to go in numbers. And that's what we did.

1193
01:08:16,400 --> 01:08:21,679
Speaker 13: And so when the formation of people was not an anger, think,

1194
01:08:22,400 --> 01:08:25,240
Speaker 13: it was can we correct this word set for all

1195
01:08:25,320 --> 01:08:28,519
Speaker 13: that we can do it? We also know it. Remember

1196
01:08:28,600 --> 01:08:32,519
Speaker 13: that time I'm in corporate finance in Sonavan. Yeah, I'm

1197
01:08:32,560 --> 01:08:36,679
Speaker 13: seeing all these structures and these deals and like people

1198
01:08:36,920 --> 01:08:40,040
Speaker 13: don't have to have money to do these things, and

1199
01:08:40,120 --> 01:08:43,479
Speaker 13: so yeah, women can do it too, and that's what

1200
01:08:43,520 --> 01:08:43,840
Speaker 13: we did.

1201
01:08:44,280 --> 01:08:46,120
Speaker 2: Do you think it's still the same in business? I

1202
01:08:46,120 --> 01:08:49,240
Speaker 2: mean there's certainly. We try and keep a sort of

1203
01:08:49,280 --> 01:08:51,920
Speaker 2: informal count of the female CEOs we speak to on

1204
01:08:51,960 --> 01:08:54,519
Speaker 2: the Money Show, and there are far more than they've

1205
01:08:54,560 --> 01:08:57,559
Speaker 2: ever been, but it's still nowhere near fifty percent.

1206
01:08:58,320 --> 01:09:01,040
Speaker 13: The battle for women in business is the same all

1207
01:09:01,080 --> 01:09:04,320
Speaker 13: over the world. So South Africa is not different. It

1208
01:09:04,400 --> 01:09:08,240
Speaker 13: still is, and I think the difference in South Africa

1209
01:09:08,560 --> 01:09:12,400
Speaker 13: is twofold and nobody will believe this. During our time,

1210
01:09:13,560 --> 01:09:19,880
Speaker 13: government forced the issue of recognition of women in business.

1211
01:09:20,360 --> 01:09:27,120
Speaker 13: Specifically during a Taboobaker's time. He was a champion for

1212
01:09:27,200 --> 01:09:29,680
Speaker 13: the presence of women in the mainstream of the economy.

1213
01:09:30,439 --> 01:09:34,640
Speaker 13: We benefited from that because he would say this everywhere.

1214
01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:40,640
Speaker 13: He was comfortable to express this policy, and we benefited

1215
01:09:40,680 --> 01:09:43,680
Speaker 13: from that because if the head of stage says it

1216
01:09:43,800 --> 01:09:47,439
Speaker 13: so loudly and all over the world, it was a

1217
01:09:47,479 --> 01:09:51,760
Speaker 13: privileged focus because of boardrooms adders do that. And so

1218
01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:58,000
Speaker 13: in a sense it is possible that with more government

1219
01:09:58,160 --> 01:10:03,040
Speaker 13: pressure to recognize women in South Africa, we became better

1220
01:10:03,200 --> 01:10:06,559
Speaker 13: than the rest of the world and we benefited from that.

1221
01:10:06,760 --> 01:10:10,320
Speaker 13: But having said that, as soon as that noise is

1222
01:10:10,439 --> 01:10:13,000
Speaker 13: out of the way and we are left all by ourselves.

1223
01:10:13,479 --> 01:10:18,120
Speaker 13: We still get into all manner of and the mining

1224
01:10:18,439 --> 01:10:22,559
Speaker 13: and stuff like that, but the difference was that we

1225
01:10:22,720 --> 01:10:26,680
Speaker 13: did have a champion at the highest office of the

1226
01:10:26,760 --> 01:10:30,640
Speaker 13: land and we need that. We have to have that

1227
01:10:31,400 --> 01:10:34,759
Speaker 13: because the battle is not over. It's a war zone,

1228
01:10:35,120 --> 01:10:38,760
Speaker 13: that is a worldwide war zone, and South Africa is

1229
01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:41,320
Speaker 13: ahead of the rest of the world. I think I

1230
01:10:41,400 --> 01:10:45,439
Speaker 13: hope at lease. That's my view in spite of how

1231
01:10:46,320 --> 01:10:48,920
Speaker 13: far we still have to go.

1232
01:10:49,840 --> 01:10:52,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're speaking to Glorious Robert. She is your shape

1233
01:10:52,720 --> 01:10:55,200
Speaker 2: shift this evening, the co founder and group chief executive

1234
01:10:55,240 --> 01:10:58,519
Speaker 2: officer of Whippold, among many other things. Nine minutes state.

1235
01:11:00,240 --> 01:11:02,680
Speaker 9: The Money Show Steven Protest is brought to you by

1236
01:11:02,760 --> 01:11:07,719
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1237
01:11:08,040 --> 01:11:12,200
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1238
01:11:14,040 --> 01:11:16,000
Speaker 8: The Money Show Shape.

1239
01:11:15,680 --> 01:11:19,240
Speaker 2: Shifters seven minutes, say Gloria s. Robez, the co founder

1240
01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:21,920
Speaker 2: and group chief executive officer of Whoophold, your shape shifter

1241
01:11:22,000 --> 01:11:26,040
Speaker 2: this evening. Gloria, You've been on many, many boards. Many

1242
01:11:26,080 --> 01:11:29,280
Speaker 2: of them are government entities. Many of them are private entities.

1243
01:11:29,960 --> 01:11:33,839
Speaker 2: Is there a difference between the government entities and the

1244
01:11:33,880 --> 01:11:36,840
Speaker 2: corporate entities that you've been on. Do you see any

1245
01:11:36,880 --> 01:11:39,719
Speaker 2: difference or does it really depend on who the chair

1246
01:11:39,880 --> 01:11:40,840
Speaker 2: is or something else.

1247
01:11:41,280 --> 01:11:46,719
Speaker 13: Now there's a big difference. Student, Remember that the public

1248
01:11:46,800 --> 01:11:52,160
Speaker 13: sector and yous have got additional requirements free FMA. They

1249
01:11:52,160 --> 01:11:55,519
Speaker 13: have the same governance like private sector, but they have

1250
01:11:56,280 --> 01:12:02,680
Speaker 13: specific things about applying with the government. But besides that,

1251
01:12:03,520 --> 01:12:05,920
Speaker 13: the difference for me that I have seen is that

1252
01:12:06,800 --> 01:12:12,920
Speaker 13: private sector boards can be quite uninteresting. You know, people

1253
01:12:12,960 --> 01:12:17,080
Speaker 13: are is you know, business as usual with the public

1254
01:12:17,160 --> 01:12:20,760
Speaker 13: sector boards, which is the ones I like most. It's

1255
01:12:20,800 --> 01:12:27,000
Speaker 13: a difficulty of actually navigating this thing called a state

1256
01:12:27,120 --> 01:12:31,920
Speaker 13: owned enterprise moving it from Most of them came from

1257
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:37,920
Speaker 13: being state departments being entities, and you still have the

1258
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:42,040
Speaker 13: remnants of that thing of being state departments to being

1259
01:12:42,200 --> 01:12:47,880
Speaker 13: real entities. Remember I was a safe of transnit, I

1260
01:12:48,000 --> 01:12:52,120
Speaker 13: was city three years old at the time, state transnent

1261
01:12:52,240 --> 01:12:55,080
Speaker 13: at the time. Was coming from being a state department

1262
01:12:55,160 --> 01:12:59,840
Speaker 13: of Department of Transport. It's not being a corporate hardly

1263
01:13:00,000 --> 01:13:04,560
Speaker 13: three four years and you're still working on these remnants

1264
01:13:04,600 --> 01:13:07,640
Speaker 13: of moving from being a state department to being a

1265
01:13:07,720 --> 01:13:09,880
Speaker 13: corporate and you have to keep up.

1266
01:13:10,320 --> 01:13:13,439
Speaker 8: You have to deal with.

1267
01:13:13,400 --> 01:13:16,920
Speaker 13: The bondholders, you have to deal with all banks, you

1268
01:13:16,960 --> 01:13:19,880
Speaker 13: have to deal with just about anyone, and you have to.

1269
01:13:19,920 --> 01:13:21,160
Speaker 8: Be credit rated.

1270
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:24,880
Speaker 13: You have all do all these things that are sophisticated

1271
01:13:25,520 --> 01:13:31,320
Speaker 13: coming from a really tired state department space, So the

1272
01:13:31,520 --> 01:13:36,519
Speaker 13: challenges are very interesting. Having said that, for any young

1273
01:13:36,560 --> 01:13:41,519
Speaker 13: professional even today, I would ask them, if you are

1274
01:13:41,520 --> 01:13:46,400
Speaker 13: going to learn about rail, if you're going to learn pipeline,

1275
01:13:46,880 --> 01:13:50,360
Speaker 13: if you're going to be a specialist on ports, or

1276
01:13:51,479 --> 01:13:54,880
Speaker 13: just go to transcend work, there is the only place

1277
01:13:54,960 --> 01:13:57,120
Speaker 13: I can give you that. If you're going to be

1278
01:13:57,160 --> 01:14:03,080
Speaker 13: a specialist in defense on on missiles and and and

1279
01:14:03,600 --> 01:14:08,280
Speaker 13: Danelle Aeronautics, go to Danielle do it because it's the

1280
01:14:08,320 --> 01:14:12,560
Speaker 13: only place who learn that. So there are very interesting

1281
01:14:12,880 --> 01:14:18,240
Speaker 13: entities specialist areas. But sure they've got this hard part

1282
01:14:18,400 --> 01:14:22,160
Speaker 13: of trying to comply with the government requirements. So I

1283
01:14:22,360 --> 01:14:26,040
Speaker 13: love the public sector boardies actually more than the private

1284
01:14:26,080 --> 01:14:26,639
Speaker 13: sector board.

1285
01:14:26,640 --> 01:14:27,439
Speaker 8: It is interesting.

1286
01:14:28,080 --> 01:14:31,000
Speaker 2: It is interesting. I mean it is it is interesting.

1287
01:14:32,600 --> 01:14:35,920
Speaker 2: There's a conversation I've sort of watched play out a

1288
01:14:35,920 --> 01:14:39,360
Speaker 2: little bit. Sometimes I've been and just listened to and

1289
01:14:39,600 --> 01:14:42,639
Speaker 2: South Africans have the conversation. Sometimes it emerges in public

1290
01:14:43,120 --> 01:14:46,320
Speaker 2: and it goes like this. Older people will look at

1291
01:14:46,439 --> 01:14:48,719
Speaker 2: younger people. So older South Africans will look at younger

1292
01:14:48,760 --> 01:14:52,040
Speaker 2: South Africans and say, you have free basic education, you

1293
01:14:52,080 --> 01:14:56,599
Speaker 2: can have free tertiary. You don't have a party anymore.

1294
01:14:57,160 --> 01:14:59,840
Speaker 2: Life is much better. It's much easier for you now.

1295
01:15:00,439 --> 01:15:03,559
Speaker 2: And I've seen those younger people get quite angry actually

1296
01:15:03,680 --> 01:15:08,040
Speaker 2: and say to the older people, well, there are no institution,

1297
01:15:08,240 --> 01:15:10,479
Speaker 2: there are no places for me at the tertiary. My

1298
01:15:10,640 --> 01:15:14,320
Speaker 2: school was free but was terrible. A crime is so

1299
01:15:14,479 --> 01:15:17,759
Speaker 2: much worse. People have to walk my sister to school

1300
01:15:17,800 --> 01:15:21,960
Speaker 2: so that she gets there safely. Things like that. I mean,

1301
01:15:22,439 --> 01:15:25,280
Speaker 2: in a way, asking this question doesn't help us. What's

1302
01:15:25,320 --> 01:15:28,120
Speaker 2: it easier then or is it easier now? It does

1303
01:15:28,200 --> 01:15:31,559
Speaker 2: point to maybe solving the problems of the now. Do

1304
01:15:31,600 --> 01:15:32,960
Speaker 2: you have a view one way or another?

1305
01:15:34,640 --> 01:15:41,800
Speaker 13: The challenges we have are very different, and for some

1306
01:15:41,880 --> 01:15:48,719
Speaker 13: of us who have struggled both lives of working before

1307
01:15:49,720 --> 01:15:54,639
Speaker 13: nineteen ninety four and being in a workplace after nineteen

1308
01:15:54,720 --> 01:16:00,960
Speaker 13: ninety four, we see the privilege of that change, understand it,

1309
01:16:01,400 --> 01:16:06,679
Speaker 13: we feel it because it was hard, and we actually

1310
01:16:06,880 --> 01:16:12,640
Speaker 13: appreciate more of what has happened. The challenge of the

1311
01:16:12,800 --> 01:16:18,160
Speaker 13: young person doesn't know this life before. They know this

1312
01:16:18,360 --> 01:16:22,680
Speaker 13: life after nineteen ninety four, and they are challenged by

1313
01:16:22,720 --> 01:16:26,240
Speaker 13: the same things that we are challenged with. Lack of water,

1314
01:16:27,360 --> 01:16:34,760
Speaker 13: infrastructure problems, we transport, h cups, all of those difficult things.

1315
01:16:35,280 --> 01:16:38,320
Speaker 13: Those are the challenges of today, and we should not

1316
01:16:38,600 --> 01:16:43,320
Speaker 13: downplay them. That is their view, That is their view thing,

1317
01:16:43,520 --> 01:16:46,920
Speaker 13: that's what they see. We see it as well. But

1318
01:16:47,120 --> 01:16:50,439
Speaker 13: let me tell you, Steven, I have to say that

1319
01:16:51,640 --> 01:16:56,840
Speaker 13: I come from pre nineteen ninety four. The electricity was

1320
01:16:57,360 --> 01:17:01,960
Speaker 13: never there. So even when we're have load shedding, I

1321
01:17:02,000 --> 01:17:05,360
Speaker 13: suffer it with a young person. But I also say

1322
01:17:05,439 --> 01:17:08,400
Speaker 13: I come from it that life. I didn't have electricity,

1323
01:17:08,880 --> 01:17:14,000
Speaker 13: the water penetration. I didn't have water before nineteen ninety four.

1324
01:17:14,320 --> 01:17:17,920
Speaker 13: Now I have, but now it gets switched off. Water

1325
01:17:18,000 --> 01:17:22,800
Speaker 13: is not here now for days on end. Electricity, same

1326
01:17:22,840 --> 01:17:28,800
Speaker 13: same transport, the same, same telecoms, same same the penetration,

1327
01:17:29,080 --> 01:17:33,679
Speaker 13: the access to telecoms, to all of these things before

1328
01:17:33,760 --> 01:17:37,240
Speaker 13: nineteen ninety four. It was zero after nineteen ninety four.

1329
01:17:37,280 --> 01:17:41,439
Speaker 13: For me, is a particular presentage but somebody who comes

1330
01:17:41,479 --> 01:17:47,880
Speaker 13: after nineteen four, all they see is electricity disappearing, water disappearing.

1331
01:17:48,360 --> 01:17:53,160
Speaker 13: We should not dismiss that, but we understand it in

1332
01:17:53,240 --> 01:17:56,360
Speaker 13: a bit of a different That's why the collision between us,

1333
01:17:56,400 --> 01:17:58,920
Speaker 13: the old ones and the young ones. But the truth

1334
01:17:58,920 --> 01:18:01,360
Speaker 13: of the matter is that struggle is the same today

1335
01:18:02,200 --> 01:18:05,760
Speaker 13: of service delivery and all of that kind. We need

1336
01:18:05,800 --> 01:18:07,240
Speaker 13: to quickly move into that.

1337
01:18:08,800 --> 01:18:10,880
Speaker 2: So Robert, thank you so much for your time. Really

1338
01:18:10,920 --> 01:18:13,320
Speaker 2: do appreciate it. The co founder and group chief executive

1339
01:18:13,360 --> 01:18:14,280
Speaker 2: officer at Wardhold.

1340
01:18:16,360 --> 01:18:18,880
Speaker 9: The Money Show Stevel Protest is brought to you by

1341
01:18:18,960 --> 01:18:23,920
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1342
01:18:24,240 --> 01:18:28,160
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1343
01:18:30,160 --> 01:18:32,519
Speaker 2: Well that's the money Show for tonight. US markets up

1344
01:18:32,560 --> 01:18:35,280
Speaker 2: shrugging off the fears of AI. The Dow Joneses up

1345
01:18:35,320 --> 01:18:37,720
Speaker 2: point five nine, the Naze's up one point two, the

1346
01:18:37,800 --> 01:18:40,320
Speaker 2: S and P five hundreds up point eight. Aubrey is next.

1347
01:18:40,360 --> 01:18:41,040
Speaker 2: It's eight o'clock