WEBVTT - Corporal punishment in prisons  

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<v Speaker 1>Well, there's something that has really got a conversation going

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<v Speaker 1>is comments made by Correctional Services Minister Peter Khrunivoltz, who

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<v Speaker 1>raised the question of reinstating corporal punishment as part of

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<v Speaker 1>the criminal justice system. This was removed from the law

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<v Speaker 1>books or whatever was required. Yes, it was outlawed in

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen ninety six, I think by an act of Parliament.

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<v Speaker 1>The wider context of the conversation, though, is the overcrowding

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<v Speaker 1>of South African prisons and in his view, and he

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<v Speaker 1>backs it up with statistics, the minister is saying a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of the people who are taking up space in

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<v Speaker 1>prisons are awaiting trial, and they're they're because they are

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<v Speaker 1>extremely poor and can't afford even small amounts of bail.

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<v Speaker 1>But the wider debate is, of course, on the one hand,

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<v Speaker 1>about the suggestion that corporal punishment might be a way

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<v Speaker 1>of dealing with this, give people lashes and off they go,

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<v Speaker 1>or the wider questions of why the prisons are so

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<v Speaker 1>full in the first place, Why is the awaiting trial

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<v Speaker 1>system as blocked up as it should be. Let's get

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<v Speaker 1>some expert insight into this and welcome to the show.

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<v Speaker 1>So Hella Surajpal who's a legal researcher at the Judicial

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<v Speaker 1>Inspectorate for Correctional Services. And that Inspector, of course, is

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<v Speaker 1>an official body and goes around looking at prisons and

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<v Speaker 1>the conditions behind bars. So HeLa surraj PL welcome and

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<v Speaker 1>thanks very much for giving us your time. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>if this is not a solution to overcrowding, and in

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<v Speaker 1>particular the large numbers of people who are taking up

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<v Speaker 1>space in prisons who are actually a waiting trial and

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<v Speaker 1>have not been convicted, if this is not the solution,

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<v Speaker 1>and I suspect you would argue it isn't. What do

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<v Speaker 1>you think are the priorities instead? Good afternoon to you.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks so much for having me, and to you and

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<v Speaker 2>your listeners as well. I want to start by saying

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<v Speaker 2>that at CHICKS we absolutely agree with Minister for an

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<v Speaker 2>Avult that overclouding is at unacceptable levels in our country,

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<v Speaker 2>that it has devastating impacts on conditions of detention, on

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<v Speaker 2>the safety of inmates and on officials, and that something

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<v Speaker 2>needs to be done. And we also agree with him

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<v Speaker 2>that it's largely driven by an increase in people awaiting

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<v Speaker 2>trial and that we need alternatives to prison time to

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<v Speaker 2>prison sentences, as you predicted, disagree that corporal punishment is

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<v Speaker 2>an appropriate solution, and it's not just us who disagree.

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<v Speaker 2>The question has been resolved, as you say, by an

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<v Speaker 2>Act of Parliament, but also by a decision of the

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<v Speaker 2>Constitutional Court in nineteen ninety five when they were considering

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<v Speaker 2>specifically the question of corporal punishment against juvenile offenders, because

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<v Speaker 2>at that time the state had already agreed that it

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<v Speaker 2>would be unconstitutional or to punish adult offenders in this way.

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<v Speaker 2>And they disagree because they said that corporal punishment violates

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<v Speaker 2>a person's inherent human dignity, it's cruel, it's degrading, it's inhumane,

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<v Speaker 2>and that our new democratic society should administer punishment that

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<v Speaker 2>is in compliance with our constitutional values, and a state

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<v Speaker 2>that meeters out violence against its own people is not

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<v Speaker 2>in compliance with those values. But your question is a

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<v Speaker 2>good one. Then what's the alternative if we agree that

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<v Speaker 2>prison isn't appropriate, but that corporal punishment also isn't. And

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<v Speaker 2>the truth is that there are lots of alternatives that

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<v Speaker 2>already exist in our law. There is a community service,

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<v Speaker 2>there is house arrest, there's probation, which means that you

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<v Speaker 2>are in a community you can still work, you can

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<v Speaker 2>still be with your family, but there are certain restrictions

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<v Speaker 2>on what you can do. Where you can go, You

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<v Speaker 2>have to report to a community corrections officer regularly. There's

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<v Speaker 2>also restorative justice mechanisms where the focus is not on

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<v Speaker 2>punishing you by sentencing you to prison, but on allowing

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<v Speaker 2>you to make amends to the person who you can't.

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<v Speaker 2>So that might mean if you've stolen bread, which is

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<v Speaker 2>the example that Minister for in Avold use, we would

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<v Speaker 2>figure out how you could pay back the damage that

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<v Speaker 2>you've done to that shopkeeper, for example, or you would

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<v Speaker 2>have a mediation process with the person that you've maybe

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<v Speaker 2>gotten into a fight with at this tavern. So there

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<v Speaker 2>are these alternatives that exist in our law. We call

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<v Speaker 2>them non custodial options, but we neglect them because we

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<v Speaker 2>over rely on prison sentences even for people who might

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<v Speaker 2>be acting out of desperation, might be committing petty or

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<v Speaker 2>trivial crimes, and we think those alternatives are what we

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<v Speaker 2>really need to be focusing on.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks very much, lots of food for thoughts. So HeLa

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<v Speaker 1>Suraj Kul is a legal research at the Judicial Inspectorate

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<v Speaker 1>for Correctional Services