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Speaker 1: And now The Money Show with Stephen credits on seven

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Speaker 1: oh two.

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Speaker 2: Let's walk at all.

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Speaker 3: The Money Show with Stephen Curtis is brought to you

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Speaker 3: by abs of corporate and investment banking, but in seeing

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Speaker 3: economic growth with ecosystems. That's how they're invested in your story.

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Speaker 3: Good evening, Welcome to the program. I'm Stephen Curtis. Eight

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Speaker 3: minutes after six A reminder you might have thought you misheard,

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Speaker 3: we really are speaking to Temper Bevooma after seven point thirty.

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Speaker 3: Really looking forward to that conversation. He is your shape

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Speaker 3: shifter on The Money Show tonight. Lots to talk to

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Speaker 3: him about about leadership, about strategy, about working with people,

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Speaker 3: about making sure you're surrounded by the right people, all

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Speaker 3: of that. So quite excited actually to speak to Temper

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Speaker 3: Bevoma this evening. You can expect a question on the

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Speaker 3: future of test cricket, because you know Toler Keller and

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Speaker 3: I disagree not on those things, but we do disagree

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Speaker 3: slightly on that. Quite an interesting day. A few more

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Speaker 3: updates coming through, particularly later in the day, aspen Pharmercare

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Speaker 3: having an update. There was an update as well, of

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Speaker 3: course from Capi Tech earlier in the day, and it

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Speaker 3: does seem finey that some of that period of volatility

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Speaker 3: around metals prices might have eased. I say that knowing

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Speaker 3: it all go nuts again in a couple of moments.

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Speaker 3: Still lots of conversations at the mining in Daba in

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Speaker 3: Cape Town. In one of the conversations coming from the

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Speaker 3: DTIC Minister Parks Tow essentially saying that South Africa is

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Speaker 3: looking at reviewing some of its trade policies, some of

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Speaker 3: its trade agreements with countries it does not do. We

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Speaker 3: don't want to just export raw minerals. We want to

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Speaker 3: beneficiate I mean, of course, but there's so many issues

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Speaker 3: around that. Due to speak to the acting Deputy Director

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Speaker 3: General of Sectors and the DTIC doctor de Baha Mukobe

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Speaker 3: about that in just a moment, I think that's going

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Speaker 3: to be an important conversation. Also Martin Davis, you know

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Speaker 3: him of course many hats, but he's also involved in

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Speaker 3: the mining in dewberries. The chare of the Downstream and

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Speaker 3: Industrial Committee at the mining and Darba talking about beneficiation

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Speaker 3: and how perhaps instead of looking elsewhere we should look

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Speaker 3: to markets here for the products that are sold. I

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Speaker 3: was very interested to read the Amabungane Center for Investigative

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Speaker 3: Journalism story this morning. It was published in at Daily

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Speaker 3: Maverick and News twenty four about ESKAM and their power

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Speaker 3: generation fleet. And you look at the top numbers and

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Speaker 3: you think to yourself, will load chillings over the what's

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Speaker 3: it called the energy availability factor? Looks pretty good. They've

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Speaker 3: done a much deeper dive. They had some numbers. I

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Speaker 3: must say, well done to ESKIM. They gave them all

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Speaker 3: of the numbers they wanted and they say, actually forty

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Speaker 3: percent of Eskam's power stations this is coal now are

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Speaker 3: available less than half of the time and the target

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Speaker 3: is eighty percent, an EAF of eighty percent. But the

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Speaker 3: two new power stations Madupian consider are still only hitting

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Speaker 3: seventy percent. I thought, maybe they'll be doing a little

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Speaker 3: better than that now, and we'll also be looking at

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Speaker 3: pay bonuses and benefits. How they're thinking about that is changing.

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Speaker 3: Lindiu Seborsial from she's the managing director of Raim Channel

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Speaker 3: from around ten to seven. A lot of demands now

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Speaker 3: from workers. If you go for a job interview, almost

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Speaker 3: immediately you're going to be told you will need to

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Speaker 3: come into the office three days a week at least,

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Speaker 3: does seem like things are going in that way? Good

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Speaker 3: you hear from you as always double onea A three

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Speaker 3: oh seven two two one four four six O five

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Speaker 3: six seven and oh seven two seven oh two one

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Speaker 3: seven oh two. So much going on around water in

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Speaker 3: Karteng at the moment. Just get a censor right now.

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Speaker 3: The Mayor of joe Berg, Daara Morrero, the Water Affairs

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Speaker 3: Minister Pemi Majordina and others are talking. I think the

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Speaker 3: problem is is that residents have almost given up hope

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Speaker 3: and when you get to that situation, things really are

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Speaker 3: in a very bad state. What do you think will

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Speaker 3: improve the water situation around the country? Oh seven two

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Speaker 3: seven oh two one seven oh two. Good evening. Twelve

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Speaker 3: minutes after six The Lally Show.

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Speaker 4: With Stephen Kruger's Live on ninety two point seven and

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Speaker 4: one six FM streaming on the Prime Media Plus.

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Speaker 2: NAP and DStv channel eight five six.

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Speaker 3: Well the DT. I see Minister park Style saying today

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Speaker 3: his department wants to make sure that investments from other

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Speaker 3: countries help to industrialize South Africa and that trade partnerships

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Speaker 3: will be reviewed to stop minerals from being exploited without

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Speaker 3: some kind of tangible benefit. Doctor de Borjom mccube is

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Speaker 3: the Acting Deputy Director General of Sectors at the Department

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Speaker 3: of Trade, Industry and Competition at the BOJO. Good evening

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Speaker 3: and thanks so much for your time. What kind of

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Speaker 3: reviewer you looking at?

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Speaker 5: Good good evening to you and to your listeners. As

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Speaker 5: the Minister has indicated, Look, the government, through the Department

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Speaker 5: of Petrolum and Mineral Resources has tabled the critical mineral strategy.

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Speaker 5: At the center of that is the beneficiation which you've

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Speaker 5: been talking about for a number of years now. The

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Speaker 5: tta I SEE has been given the responsibility to make

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Speaker 5: sure that there is localization and beneficiation of those minerals

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Speaker 5: in the country. So we are looking at measures to

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Speaker 5: support various subsectors of those minerals.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so would you make it illegal to export those

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Speaker 3: minerals in a row form?

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Speaker 4: Look?

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Speaker 5: The economic instruments right which can be used to limit

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Speaker 5: the exportation of the minerals in the real form. One

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Speaker 5: is the exportase or the quota, which Colinet has basically

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Speaker 5: given the dt I SEE to explore the mechanism to

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Speaker 5: implement those police instruments. So we are reviewing, you know,

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Speaker 5: the best way to implement those instruments, because there must

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Speaker 5: be efficiencies and for us to make sure that you know,

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Speaker 5: we are very competitive in exporting those minerals, so when

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Speaker 5: you then consider the expertase, you have to look at

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Speaker 5: the price in relation to your competitors. So it's important

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Speaker 5: that we review that, but also making sure that there's

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Speaker 5: downstream and development. So we are working with other government departments,

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Speaker 5: including the industry. We have received commands from the industry

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Speaker 5: and other stakeholders on whether to do it or not

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Speaker 5: to do it. So we are assessing those comments and

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Speaker 5: at the right time, the department will make pronouncements on

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Speaker 5: whether those instruments are appropriate or not. But what you

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Speaker 5: cannot sorry you can come in.

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Speaker 3: Okay, sorry too, Sorry to interrupt. That don't mean too

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Speaker 3: but I mean, for example, as I understand it's the

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Speaker 3: list that I can see from from the government, is

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Speaker 3: that you would include lithium, cobalt, manganese, platinum group metals

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Speaker 3: for example. Now we export quite a large amount of

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Speaker 3: platinum group metals. At the moment, they're not beneficiated here,

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Speaker 3: they benefit it's been officiated somewhere else. I mean, if

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Speaker 3: you were to put a tax or try and disrupt

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Speaker 3: that trade, it would have a huge impact on the

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Speaker 3: platinum industry, on all sorts of financial activity, economic activity

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Speaker 3: that's happening at the moment. Look the.

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Speaker 5: Some beneficiation happening. We can debate, you know, on the extent,

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Speaker 5: but if you look at the autels we do for

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Speaker 5: Catholic converters, we well we we then do beneficiate to

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Speaker 5: a particular extent the platinum, for for chrome. The challenge

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Speaker 5: that we are having is the is the price which

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Speaker 5: the government is dealing with that and that effects the

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Speaker 5: cost of production, including beneficiation. We are comgnisant of the

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Speaker 5: fact that we don't have adequate resources of amounts of lythium,

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Speaker 5: but our neighboring countries Zimbabwe is end out with with lythium,

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Speaker 5: so is dar We are looking at processing those minerals

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Speaker 5: in the country, all right, So we are partnering with

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Speaker 5: will be partnering with other countries so that we we

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Speaker 5: then process. So for us, it's not only as I've said,

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Speaker 5: an issue of putting or placing a limitation on the

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Speaker 5: exports without a broaduct strategy or around beneficiation. So that

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Speaker 5: is why the review is being undertaken and a proper

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Speaker 5: economic analysis is then required. Our view is that any

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Speaker 5: limitation must be supported by downstream development in the country

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Speaker 5: and we are working on that, okay.

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Speaker 3: I mean the other thing to just be aware of

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Speaker 3: is the General Agreements on Trade and Tariffs, and as

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Speaker 3: I understand it, under the GAT Agreement World Trade Organization

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Speaker 3: members we do belong to it can't just stop exports

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Speaker 3: of certain minerals. So I mean, we would have to

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Speaker 3: live up to agreements we've signed. All of this has

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Speaker 3: to fit together at a time when other countries are

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Speaker 3: trying to do the same thing and price matters. You're

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Speaker 3: trying to thread a very difficult needle.

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Speaker 5: Yes, and again we are the member of the the ABILITY,

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Speaker 5: all right, we are signatory to the agreements in there.

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Speaker 5: But also if you look at what other countries are doing,

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Speaker 5: they've put in security national security consideration as there isn't

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Speaker 5: why they're limiting the export of certain minerals. So China

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Speaker 5: is doing it as and critical minerals we are seeing

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Speaker 5: and the US just announced last week that it will

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Speaker 5: be stopped highly the critical minerals and there is funding

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Speaker 5: allocated for that. We are also doing it in other factors.

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Speaker 5: So if you look at the still industry, for instance,

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Speaker 5: there is an attacks and expert tax on scrap and

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Speaker 5: we are providing that script. But the developmental price to

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Speaker 5: the minimals which are processing or producing electricity using scripts,

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Speaker 5: and that is downstream development and we are seeing the

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Speaker 5: benefits in the country. So they're thinking, is it's like that?

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Speaker 5: So for for for us is not applying the text

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Speaker 5: and issolution from that development process.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I worry that we're entering an era not

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Speaker 3: just of tariff nationalism, of trade nationalism, but resource nationalism

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Speaker 3: as well. And obviously your job is to look after

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Speaker 3: South Africa's interests and I expect you to look after

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Speaker 3: my interests. But we, I think, can be legitimately critical

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Speaker 3: of nations that say we're not going to sell things

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Speaker 3: to you because we want to keep them, which is

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Speaker 3: really troum trade policy in a way. And suddenly we're

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Speaker 3: just as bad as the next die.

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Speaker 5: So we all agree that the strategy or the practice

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Speaker 5: of the pit to part has not really benefited South

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Speaker 5: African other resource rich countries in the main partrigularly on

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Speaker 5: the African continent. So we are end out with the

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Speaker 5: chrome al right, we export chrome. That chrome is used

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Speaker 5: to manufacture standards still for instance in China. All right,

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Speaker 5: what we are saying is that that is not sustainable

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Speaker 5: for us. How do we make sure that we are

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Speaker 5: also capable of manufacturing stainards still in the country.

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Speaker 4: Uh.

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Speaker 5: And we all agree that I spot can be an

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Speaker 5: important instrument, but it's not sufficient. So you didn't need

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Speaker 5: other economic instruments to support the development of stainless still

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Speaker 5: industry in the country. And we also it's important that

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Speaker 5: we developed that sete of the market. Then who can

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Speaker 5: export it to to other African countries and we can

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Speaker 5: all of us benefits from that. But as we currently

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Speaker 5: doing it's it's we are not driving value. As you know,

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Speaker 5: I always say, you know your your calls, so it's

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Speaker 5: more expensive like as compared to your rockabish, you know,

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Speaker 5: because there is value addition. So the thing thinking in

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Speaker 5: in in minerals that we are not capturing value where

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Speaker 5: they is needed and value is in the downstream is

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Speaker 5: in the process of of of minerals. And it makes

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Speaker 5: economical and logic put us to capture that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, doctor Dobaham mccobet, thank you very much. Indeed, Acting

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Speaker 3: Deputy Director General of Sectors at the DTI. See well

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Speaker 3: staying with that conversation twenty two minutes after six on

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Speaker 3: the Money show at the Mining in Darba today, more

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Speaker 3: conversations about exactly the same thing, beneficiation and a suggestion

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Speaker 3: in fact, we should be looking to our own markets

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Speaker 3: for the final product rather than beneficiating something to sell elsewhere.

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Speaker 3: Doctor Martin Davis is the chair of the Downstream and

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Speaker 3: Industrial Committee at the ENDARBA Martin good even good to

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Speaker 3: talk to you again. What are you suggesting in terms

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Speaker 3: of how we could change the way we approach beneficiation.

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Speaker 6: Yes, Stephn, Sorry, thanks for the conversation. I'm always good

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Speaker 6: to chat to you. Look, I think the starting point

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Speaker 6: here is is the notion of beneficiation must be built

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Speaker 6: on sound economics. We're not living in the Soviet Union

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Speaker 6: and clearly that didn't end well. What we need to

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Speaker 6: be thinking about here is sort of IMMAs paint the macro.

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Speaker 6: Briefly is we're living in the age of mechantilism.

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Speaker 1: And you allude to that.

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Speaker 6: Think China the last you know twenty thirty odd years,

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Speaker 6: are more recently the US in some form or other.

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Speaker 6: The challenge really is, then the question is saying, we're

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Speaker 6: seeing states that are developmentally aspirational want to reindustrialize or

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Speaker 6: rescue industry or from very nascent states industrializer economies. And

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Speaker 6: therefore you have governments, and the conversation just now reflected

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Speaker 6: about governments that seem to think they need to be

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Speaker 6: more interventionist, more controlling, and more arguably employing a China

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Speaker 6: model that is not understood and certainly often misapplied, whereby

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Speaker 6: the state must control and own. I think that's entirely incorrect.

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Speaker 6: We often, I was saying earlier today. In fact, the

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Speaker 6: mind of it, you know, government has beyond the provision

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Speaker 6: of efficient public goods and services. You know, I think power, logistics, infrastructure, security,

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Speaker 6: et cetera, rule of law, those that the central essential

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Speaker 6: cocktail to begin with upon which business, economics and industry

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Speaker 6: can thrive. Those are the share basics, pure basics. But

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Speaker 6: beyond that, I think we need to start to think about,

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Speaker 6: you know, not even not even sector growth is how

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Speaker 6: countries create, as we say, ecosystems around which are really

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Speaker 6: human capital focused and based on liberal economic policy that

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Speaker 6: allow businesses to thrive rather than sort of force businesses

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Speaker 6: or sectors to comply that's not a sustainable winning strategy.

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Speaker 6: I'm afraid, and I think that, you know, a very

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Speaker 6: important point is to stress I think sustainable societies economic

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Speaker 6: development is underpinned by healthy, robust middle class. Middle classes

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Speaker 6: in South Africa and other economies globally.

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Speaker 1: Right now in certain regions.

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Speaker 6: Are battling with high levels of inflation really to be speaking,

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Speaker 6: which erodes well from the bottom, and taxation, which takes

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Speaker 6: well from the top.

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Speaker 1: We're seeing a narrowing of a middle class.

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Speaker 6: And if that's the case, government should be doing all

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Speaker 6: it can to reduce inflation and reduce in taxation and

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Speaker 6: allowing middle class to thrive through growth. It's not done

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Speaker 6: by ownership intervention and increase taxes, particular on exports of

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Speaker 6: what is effectively one's only real, you know, really valuable export,

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Speaker 6: and that is commodities taxing. It is I'm afraid cutting

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Speaker 6: off not just your own shooting yourself in the foot,

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Speaker 6: but cutting off your entire leg.

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Speaker 3: I mean, there needs needs to be another approach in

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Speaker 3: so many different ways, is there really? I mean, you know,

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Speaker 3: the heading of the session you had today was around

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Speaker 3: sort of beneficiation for South Africa's market. The reason we

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Speaker 3: want to beneficiate and sell or sell to other countries.

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Speaker 3: Is that market is bigger.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean it's you kind of have a winning

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Speaker 6: sort of developmental strategy focus on on domestic market. I mean,

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Speaker 6: if that's the case, then countries like staff Career, China,

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Speaker 6: Wooden or not even South Korea, Singapore, et cetera, Tiwa

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Speaker 6: would never have succeeded. Their market was always global by

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Speaker 6: free trade, highly efficient government, entrepreneurship and capital creation. And

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Speaker 6: that is that's the fundamentals one needs to understand the

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Speaker 6: challenges today's world. You know, we have what I call

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Speaker 6: sort of elusive trinity, is that we want to industrialize,

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Speaker 6: but it's very difficult to you know, the combination of industrialization, employment,

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Speaker 6: and productivity.

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Speaker 1: You can't have all three. You can have two of

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Speaker 1: the three, but not all three.

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Speaker 6: And I'm afraid in the light of industrialization, it's no

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Speaker 6: longer an employment creation strategy that capital is not really

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Speaker 6: interested in labor. I'm afraid capital is interested in tech

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Speaker 6: and manufacturing these days is very very high tech.

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Speaker 1: So that's where we need to start from. But I

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Speaker 1: go back to say that, you know.

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Speaker 5: This sort of.

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Speaker 6: Charles Dickens's view of the world of of of of

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Speaker 6: factories and high employment and localization, import substitution.

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Speaker 1: That's not an industrial strategy.

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Speaker 6: Yes, governments are inclining toward this, but I'm afraid they're wrong.

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Speaker 6: We need to to to you know, again, you have

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Speaker 6: to have that very efficient inputs into your manufacturing. But ultimately,

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Speaker 6: I think, and you know, be power, et cetera. But

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Speaker 6: that's the obvious. But I think really it's about a

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Speaker 6: human capital play. Industrialization, manufacturing value add nice word beneficiation

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Speaker 6: is a human capital play. How can you bring generate

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Speaker 6: local international talent together in clusters for competitiveness? And Stephen,

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Speaker 6: I must say, and you know my views on this,

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Speaker 6: I think I'm deeply skeptical to say, Well, the question

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Speaker 6: is do natural resources confer a comparative advantage?

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Speaker 1: I don't think they do.

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Speaker 6: Or do they merely just blind society's economies governments from

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Speaker 6: more opportunities that may lie elsewhere.

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Speaker 3: I think that's the key question, Doctor Martin Davis, thanks

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Speaker 3: so much. Share the Downstream and Industrial Committee investing in

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Speaker 3: mining in Darbor twenty eight after six the Money Show

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Speaker 3: the Market Christian's portfolio manager at ninety one Christ good Evening.

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Speaker 3: A few updates today, including from Capitech and Surprise Price,

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Speaker 3: their earnings are up.

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Speaker 1: Good you being Stephen.

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Speaker 7: A pretty robust trading update out of Capitec today, guiding

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Speaker 7: for headline earnings growth between twenty and twenty five percent,

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Speaker 7: which is another very credible number in the current environment.

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Speaker 7: And if I know Capitech based on recent history, it's

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Speaker 7: going to be closer to twenty five percent than it

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Speaker 7: is to the twenty percent mark. Remember, they've released the

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Speaker 7: stripping update about a month before the end of their

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Speaker 7: financial years, so they must be pretty confident that they're

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Speaker 7: going to get to the numbers. And that's despite the

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Speaker 7: fact that they continue to adopt a strategy of investing

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Speaker 7: quite aggressively in reducing pricing in areas of the market

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Speaker 7: where they think there are opportunities for them to get

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Speaker 7: in there and do so. We've seen that over the

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Speaker 7: last year they've been pretty tight in terms of retail fees.

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Speaker 7: They've got a very simple retail fee structure. You're not

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Speaker 7: seeing fees climbing across the bank and you know, they

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Speaker 7: have certainly set the catamount the pigeons in the business

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Speaker 7: banking space where they've gone in with some fairly aggressive

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Speaker 7: price cuts, both in terms of hardware point of sale,

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Speaker 7: but also some of the acquiring fees that the banks

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Speaker 7: charge at point of sale, and they're using that to

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Speaker 7: further their longer term growth prospect by gaining market share

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Speaker 7: in those areas and continue to be very successful in

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Speaker 7: doing so.

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Speaker 3: Changes at ABSA. The new head of Personal and Private

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Speaker 3: Banking actually is from the Kenyan unied Kenyan unit impairsp

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Speaker 3: to Toya Lobokoyet. I must say I didn't see that coming.

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Speaker 3: Very interesting.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, you know, the market's been on ten

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Speaker 7: toooks waiting for some you know, appointments, new appointments.

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Speaker 3: From Kenny Wiitler.

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Speaker 7: Outside of the corporate and investment banking space, we've seen

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Speaker 7: a number of higher profile appointments within the CIB unit,

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Speaker 7: the personal and private banking and indeed the business banking

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Speaker 7: heads or you know, new executives to lead up those

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Speaker 7: divisions we've been waiting for. Today, as you say, we've

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Speaker 7: seen the former MD of Impassa Africa being appointed to

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Speaker 7: head up the Personal Private Banking division, and I suspect

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Speaker 7: before too long we will see a new appointment in

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Speaker 7: the business banking space as well. So Kenny continues to

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Speaker 7: build an executive bench to support him in his quest

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Speaker 7: to turn around as financial performance. We've also seen today

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Speaker 7: some announcements of further restructuring within the Africa region's part

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Speaker 7: of ABSA, setting up regional heads to our guests support

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Speaker 7: the in country executives and to make sure that I

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Speaker 7: guess the linkages between the businesses in South Africa and

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Speaker 7: the balance sheet in South Africa and the opportunity across.

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Speaker 1: The rest of the continent are maximized.

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Speaker 7: And I must say the corporate structure by the day

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Speaker 7: of a looks more and more like Standard Bank, and

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Speaker 7: I don't think that's any great coincidence. And then finally

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Speaker 7: we also saw the appointment of Dember Records who will

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Speaker 7: be joining as one of the dirisional heads within the

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Speaker 7: corporate investment banking business so called transactional Banking unit, which

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Speaker 7: you and I would probably call the corporate banking unit.

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Speaker 7: You know, ever since Tember resigned recently from the land Bank,

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Speaker 7: they've been question marks as to where he's going. So

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Speaker 7: now I guess we know where he's going. He's following

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Speaker 7: most executive turnover in the market and ending up adapts.

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Speaker 3: And very quickly quite strong jobs numbers in the US.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we've seen strong jobs numbers in the US.

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Speaker 7: Not ordinarily you know, something like a strong macro data

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Speaker 7: point would be good for markets. A little bit more

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Speaker 7: ambiguous in the US market, trying to digest whether this

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Speaker 7: is in the good news or bad news. You know,

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Speaker 7: a strong job's number after we've seen some fairly weak

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Speaker 7: jobs numbers and macro indicators in the last month or so,

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Speaker 7: employment falling, And I guess sometimes that viewed does not

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Speaker 7: such a good thing for markets, because slightly stronger macros

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Speaker 7: means lower likelihood of radcuts, and lower likelihood of redcuts

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Speaker 7: stably means low evaluations for highly valued equities. So the

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Speaker 7: US market sort of in and out of the black

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Speaker 7: at the moment, trying to work out whether this is

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Speaker 7: indeed good news or.

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Speaker 3: Bad Often so hard to know. Chris Stewart from ninety one,

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Speaker 3: thanks so much. Just after six thirty The Money Show

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Speaker 3: with Stephen on seven oh two, seven oh two quota

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Speaker 3: now to seven the time. Good to hear from you,

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Speaker 3: of course, and your views and what would resolve some

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Speaker 3: of the water problems with seeing around the country, I know,

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Speaker 3: seven to seven oh two one seven oh two. A

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Speaker 3: new report out today from the Amabungani Center for Investigative Journalism,

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Speaker 3: suggesting our power system might be a little bit more

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Speaker 3: well fragile than I had thought. I mean, the report

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Speaker 3: says forty percent of Eskam's power station spent half of

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Speaker 3: last year not actually producing power. Chrisy Ellend is the

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Speaker 3: managing director at EE Business Intelligence, Chris Good evening, we

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Speaker 3: haven't had load shedding for a long time. Underneath that, though,

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Speaker 3: if you look at the numbers, I mean, are our

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Speaker 3: coal fired powers stations still not doing very well?

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Speaker 8: Yeah, Look, there's a lot of them that are actually

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Speaker 8: not in service at the moment because.

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Speaker 1: Demand for electricity is pretty low.

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Speaker 8: And ESCIM has placed a number of generating units at

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Speaker 8: various power stations into what is known as cold reserve.

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Speaker 8: That it means they are switched off, but they are

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Speaker 8: technically available if called upon starts and it will take

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Speaker 8: some hours to restart them, of course, but technically they

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Speaker 8: consider it available, but they actually not actually generating at all.

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Speaker 8: They're off and there's quite a significant amount of that.

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Speaker 8: And in addition, as this Bengani article points out that

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Speaker 8: you know, if you look at the energy availability factor

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Speaker 8: for twenty twenty five as an average for the whole year.

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Speaker 8: You know, ESCAM claims about sixty two percent availability factor

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Speaker 8: average for the year, but that is but if you

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Speaker 8: take out the non coal fired power plants and just

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Speaker 8: look at the coal fired power plants, then the availability

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Speaker 8: factor drops to fifty eight percent for those coal fired units,

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Speaker 8: which is still a long way from where it should be.

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Speaker 8: But I must say that in the last weeks of

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Speaker 8: twenty twenty five, last month, in the last weeks of

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Speaker 8: twenty five, it was a very dramatic improvement in the

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Speaker 8: energy availability factor, which was out of line with the

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Speaker 8: rest of the year, very significantly out of line. And

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Speaker 8: there's been a lot of speculation as to, you know,

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Speaker 8: why this should be, and I personally put it down

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Speaker 8: to the fact of the high level of.

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Speaker 1: Cold reserve units in cold reserve.

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Speaker 8: Because you've got to understand, when a unit in cold reserve,

435
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 8: it's not on, it is considered to be available. But

436
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 8: if it was called upon to switch on and I

437
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 8: actually operate it may find that there's a boiler tube leak,

438
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 8: it might have to switch off. So if you're actually

439
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 8: operating them, they're not being stress tested as it were.

440
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 8: They're sitting there idle and they don't really know, you know,

441
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 8: as to it's really it's true level of availability because

442
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 8: it's sitting there idle and when you have these very

443
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 8: high levels of surplus generation capacity in old reserve, it

444
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 8: really makes the energy availability factors almost meaningless. And we've

445
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 8: seen this.

446
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 3: Also in the past.

447
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 8: If you look at the history of South Africa, at

448
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 8: times when we had significant surplus of electricity, the availability

449
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 8: factor it tended to be much higher than what we've

450
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 8: come to experience in the last couple of years. And

451
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 8: that's also because when you have all the surplus, you

452
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 8: can do the maintenance properly because it's sitting there, it's

453
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,479
Speaker 8: not actually needed. Now you can you can do all

454
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 8: the necessary maintenance and you can, and then you find

455
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,479
Speaker 8: the availability factor looks high, but they're not actually being

456
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 8: stress tested, so you don't really a tie or not.

457
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,120
Speaker 3: I mean according to the information and sort of well

458
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 3: done to eskipool Pol were actually giving it to them Bengani.

459
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 3: But the target is an energy availability factor of eighty percent.

460
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,640
Speaker 3: Casillia and Madoupi are both at seventy percent and they're

461
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,679
Speaker 3: both brand new should they be shouldn't they be at

462
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:20,120
Speaker 3: eighty percent? At least those two.

463
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 8: You know, if you look at the Integrated Resource Plan

464
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 8: for electricity, when they're planning and they were looking at

465
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 8: new power plants, they always quote figures, you know, for

466
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 8: a new coal five POWERstation availability of ninety percent, but

467
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 8: they never do operate at that kind of level. And

468
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 8: the same with nuclear, by the way, if you look,

469
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 8: you know, when they look at a nuclear power plant

470
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 8: in the planning phase, you know, they always talk about

471
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 8: an availability of ninety percent, but the reality is that

472
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 8: they perform at much lower availability factors. So sometimes it's

473
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 8: the planners who want to get these technologies in and

474
00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 8: quote these very high figures because it makes them look

475
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 8: much more economical. When you run a power plant and

476
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 8: a ninety percent load factor is producing much more electricity

477
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 8: because it's available ninety percent of the time, and that

478
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 8: brings the price of electricity down because you know, you

479
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 8: divide the capital costs or the cost the number of

480
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 8: units produce general electric amount of electricity produced divided by

481
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 8: the amount of investment, and suddenly it looks like you're

482
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 8: because you're generating a lot more units. It looks like

483
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 8: the price of electricity from these power stations is cheaper.

484
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 8: When you run them at a low availability factor or

485
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 8: a load load factor, the price of electricity generated by

486
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 8: that goes up significantly. So sometimes I think games get

487
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 8: played in the planning process by people pushing a particular

488
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 8: technology making it look good, but the reality is not

489
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 8: nearly as good as it looks.

490
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean the fact that we have all of

491
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 3: the surplus production capability and we don't have smelters running

492
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 3: at the moment, and there's a bit of talk that

493
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 3: you know, if we can get those back up and

494
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 3: running them, the electricity would go to running smelters, and

495
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 3: I understand that you cannot. I understand how that would

496
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 3: work from an electricity generation point of view, but would

497
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 3: it really be economical because the smelters do use a

498
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 3: huge amount of electricity. Look, it would be sort of

499
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 3: base load providing someone who needs it in a very

500
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 3: intense way. So all of that would work, but it

501
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 3: would still I presume, be quite expensive.

502
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 8: You know, the smelters have basically told government and Eskom

503
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 8: that in order to be competitive they need a price

504
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 8: of sixty two cents of killer what hour, which is

505
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 8: about a seventy five percent discount of the price of

506
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 8: electricity that they're currently getting. I don't know how that's

507
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 8: going to be possible, you know how they talk about it,

508
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 8: different business models that they investigating. But for scum to

509
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 8: supply electricity at sixty two cents of killer what hour?

510
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 8: Somebody has got to be putting the bill for the subsidy,

511
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 8: and it's it's not a small substance, is a big subsidy.

512
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 8: So the question really is who pays and how is

513
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 8: this actually funded out. They talk about using you know,

514
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 8: the glen Core's got coal they could supply at cost, Well,

515
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 8: that's not going to bring down the price from two

516
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 8: ended killer? What our sixty two cents of killer?

517
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 5: What our?

518
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 7: I mean?

519
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 8: The profits are not that big on the supply of coal.

520
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 8: I don't think glen cause margins on coal, you know,

521
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 8: or such that they can supply coal at cost to

522
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 8: ESCIM and get electricity at sixty two cents of killar

523
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 8: what our I don't see it. But we have to

524
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 8: keep an open mind there on negotiations taking place and

525
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 8: discussions try and figure this all out. We'll have to

526
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 8: see where anything comes of it by the end of March,

527
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 8: because that's the deadline that they've set themselves for this

528
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 8: engagement process with the smelters to see what can Of course,

529
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 8: there's also discard coal. In other words, not normal coal

530
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 8: that you would normally supply to the mark, but discard coal.

531
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 8: It of no use to anybody. I mean maybe it's

532
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 8: of use to ask them. Yeah, but again you know

533
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 8: the quality of the discard coal is it doesn't make

534
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 8: it necessarily suitable for an ex compower station.

535
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 3: Christ And thanks so much, Managing director at EE Business Intelligence,

536
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 3: really appreciate it.

537
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 9: The Money Show, Steve Encroaches, is brought to you by

538
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 9: Absolve Corporate and Investment Banking balancing economic growth with ecosystems.

539
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 1: That's how they've invested.

540
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 4: In your story.

541
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 3: Sex Minister seven. The time will more evidence. Today employers

542
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 3: are demanding that new employees new workers spend more time

543
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 3: in the office. Also, the idea of a sign on

544
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,239
Speaker 3: bonus seems to be falling out of favor. It all

545
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 3: comes from the REM Channel Employee Benefits Guide. The managing

546
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 3: director at RAM channel is lindiwe Sebash or good evening,

547
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 3: thanks for your time. You've found over two thirds of

548
00:32:56,840 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 3: bosses want new workers in the office three days a week.

549
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 3: It makes sense to me. I'm kind of a fan

550
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 3: of in the office. I know that makes me unpopular sometimes,

551
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 3: but is that quite a big change from a couple

552
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 3: of years ago.

553
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 10: It is a big change, and thank you very much

554
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 10: opportunity to Steven. It is definitely a big In twenty

555
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 10: twenty three, forty point per center of hybrid organizations describing

556
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 10: in office days and that's not grown to sixty seven

557
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 10: point four to those organizations now require.

558
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 3: Three days in office.

559
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 10: So this whole environment has now become a bit more prescriptive.

560
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 10: And obviously it's about collaborative. It's about rebuilding that culture

561
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 10: that has been lost when people were working behind screen,

562
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 10: and it's really trying to focus that on collaborative performance.

563
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it makes it makes sense to me.

564
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 3: I always just think of young people who start in

565
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 3: a company and how you're going to know anything about

566
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 3: it if you're not working with other people. The idea

567
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 3: of a sign on bonus, and I mean long term,

568
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know if a sign on bonus

569
00:33:58,120 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 3: works seems to be falling out of fame.

570
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 10: It is definitely out of flavor. Those were perks that

571
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 10: were used to bring people on board, so it was

572
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 10: more attraction bonus way Since you were hiring somebody that

573
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 10: was for seeing certain incentives from their previous employer that

574
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:22,320
Speaker 10: they would have obviously worked for performance condition aligned to that,

575
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 10: you would want to bring that person over. So now

576
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:29,280
Speaker 10: you're seeing is a decline. It's actually quite a big decline.

577
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 10: Fifty two point one that was in twenty twenty three,

578
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 10: and it's not twenty eight point three percent of the

579
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:36,480
Speaker 10: surveyed employ provide.

580
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 5: Sign on bonuses.

581
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:42,280
Speaker 10: What this is there is now less emphasis on past performance,

582
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 10: much emphasis on future sustainable performance. So we are not

583
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 10: buying or we are seeing employers not buying what you

584
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 10: are promising to do, but rather incentivizing the performance that

585
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 10: will create value into the future.

586
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,359
Speaker 3: I mean, there's so many things to sort of look at.

587
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 3: But I mean, companies talk about wellness all the time,

588
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 3: and they say they want to promote it, and I'm

589
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,439
Speaker 3: sure they make all sorts of promises we'll look after

590
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 3: you in this way and that way. But in the

591
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:13,359
Speaker 3: same breath, companies need to extract full value from employers.

592
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 3: I mean, are they changes to the kind of wellness

593
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 3: issue that companies provide. I mean things like thirteenth checks

594
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 3: or soft loans, things like that.

595
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 5: In particular, absolutely.

596
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,320
Speaker 10: So the interesting insights from the survey Stiven is that

597
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 10: wellbeing has become the top benefit priority. So if you

598
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 10: look at the overall package, you obviously have the cash side,

599
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 10: and then you have the benefit side, and then you

600
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 10: have the incentive side. So on the benefit side, we

601
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,839
Speaker 10: are seeing wellbeing becoming a top priority and it's really

602
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 10: largely to respond to what is going to create resilience

603
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 10: that what is going to help people deal with financial pressures.

604
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:54,839
Speaker 10: So the different aspects of well being, being, financial wellbeing, being,

605
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,360
Speaker 10: a physical wellbeing all are coming into place because everyone

606
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 10: is trying to create resililliant workforces that can manage all

607
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,840
Speaker 10: these challenges that they are seeing. But what we noted

608
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 10: is there was an intent a decline in direct financial

609
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,720
Speaker 10: assistance when we talk to the financial aspect of wellbeing.

610
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 10: What is now coming through is a growth of structured

611
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 10: financial resilience schools such as the end wage access which

612
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 10: really has been adopted by twenty percent of the surveyed organizations.

613
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 10: What this does is it allows employees to access earned

614
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 10: wages as opposed to encouraging them to go and get

615
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 10: expensive loans who just assist with in man expenses.

616
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 3: I mean I suppose this is also a reflection of

617
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 3: the perceived sort of power powerplay, right, and how much

618
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 3: do you want to work? How valuable is the worker

619
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,760
Speaker 3: to you as a company, And as always, it depends

620
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 3: on the sort of skills and relative scarcity in all

621
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,799
Speaker 3: of those things. Can you see in your surveys over

622
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 3: the years any change in whether sometimes it's workers to

623
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 3: seem to hold the power, sometimes it's the companies who

624
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 3: seem to hold the power.

625
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 10: It depends even I mean, we know that the skills

626
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 10: supply and demand, especially for critical skills, is always difficult

627
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,359
Speaker 10: to manage. So what we are seeing from a value

628
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 10: proposition that employers are providing is they still want to

629
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 10: be competitive, but they're very deliberate about where they are

630
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:31,439
Speaker 10: spending the money. On the other side, we are seeing

631
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 10: employees being very clear about what would attract them, what

632
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 10: would make them work harder, what would motivate them, what's

633
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 10: valuable to them. And especially because there's five generations in

634
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 10: the workforce now, so you've got to have a diverse

635
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 10: value proposition that talks to the needs of all those

636
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 10: different generations. So we're seeing that interplay and the balance

637
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:54,920
Speaker 10: depending on obviously what's critical for employers to succeed and

638
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 10: be sustainable for that matter.

639
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 5: From a performance perspective, Thank you very much.

640
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 3: Land Saber Show is the managing director of rem A Channel.

641
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,720
Speaker 3: Don't forget from seven thirty Temper Bervoma your special extra

642
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,439
Speaker 3: special shape Shifter on The Money Show just on seven o'clock.

643
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 1: And now The Money Show with Stephen credits on seven

644
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:18,760
Speaker 1: oh two. Let's walk little.

645
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 3: The Money Show with Stephen Crutis is brought to you

646
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 3: by ABS of Corporate and Investment banking, balancing economic growth

647
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 3: with ecosystems. That's how they're invested in your story. Eight

648
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 3: minutes after seven the time. How many times have you

649
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 3: heard the phrase be authentic, be the real you? And

650
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 3: I have to say the last few times I've heard it,

651
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 3: I've kind of gone really, I mean agay and in

652
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 3: business unusual. We'll sort of unpack. Well, maybe that's not

653
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:48,760
Speaker 3: such a good idea. We'll talk about that with Superior

654
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 3: Moyl in just a moment, Consumer Ninja Wendy Nola tonight

655
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,840
Speaker 3: looking at romance scams actually and how big a problem

656
00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 3: that can be. So quite a lot to come over

657
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:00,880
Speaker 3: the next half for now. Good to hear from you

658
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 3: as well on seven two, seven oh two one seven

659
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 3: oh two.

660
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 4: The Money Show with Stephen crudis live on ninety two

661
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 4: point seven and one six FM, streaming on the Prime

662
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 4: Media Plus NAP.

663
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 11: And DStv channel eight five six.

664
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 3: Well, as things have panned out, it does appear that

665
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:21,320
Speaker 3: we won't have a Money Show tomorrow because what's that

666
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 3: thing called again? Oh yes, the State of the Nation Address.

667
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,320
Speaker 3: The President will be speaking and you'll hear live coverage

668
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 3: of that as well as I understand that Mandy weenikam

669
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,760
Speaker 3: at Manitela will be part of our team in Parliament.

670
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 3: You'll hear all of that, the build up to it,

671
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:36,919
Speaker 3: and of course all of the reaction to the State

672
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 3: of the Nation Address as well tomorrow from around this

673
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 3: time seven o'clock Tomorrow's when the speech begins, but the

674
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 3: build up will begin long before that. I did just

675
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 3: want to say though, that if I were the president,

676
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 3: and if O were president sawrom A Pausa right now,

677
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 3: I think it will be absolutely fatal not to make

678
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 3: some kind of comment about water becoming more and more

679
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,919
Speaker 3: of a political issue, partly because because it's been such

680
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,799
Speaker 3: a big problem for so long. Also because even though

681
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 3: there have been many rural areas that have had problems

682
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:09,840
Speaker 3: with water for a very long time. Now to the

683
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:13,840
Speaker 3: urban areas. But take it from me, political change starts

684
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 3: in urban areas. Okay, it's very rare to have political

685
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 3: change or anything starting in rural areas. It can happen

686
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 3: there one or two incidents I can think of, but

687
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 3: generally speaking, it starts in the cities. And so when

688
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 3: a problem like this comes to the city, it should

689
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,440
Speaker 3: never happen in rural areas. But when it comes to

690
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 3: the city, there's more political fight, more political power to it.

691
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:38,440
Speaker 3: Add to that, Helen Zillah, who you would have heard

692
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:41,760
Speaker 3: on the Midday Report today, the DA's mayoral candidate for Joeberg,

693
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 3: published I mean, and I hate to say this about

694
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 3: a political political photograph, there's kind of a wonderful image

695
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,000
Speaker 3: because it's her sitting with her feet in a bore

696
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 3: hole full of water with a sun umbrella, basically, you know,

697
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 3: enjoying the water in a bottle. I mean, it's just

698
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 3: the most astonishing image which brings together so many of

699
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 3: Joe Berg's problems in kind of one going And I say,

700
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 3: Joe Berger, I suppose I'm really speaking for all of

701
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 3: hunting and many other places, And the political power of

702
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 3: this is huge. So if I were the president, I

703
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 3: wouldn't just make announcements. I would do something about that

704
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 3: because I think if you don't, you're probably going to

705
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:20,080
Speaker 3: feel some political heat as a result your thoughts. Oh

706
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 3: seven two seven two one seven o two.

707
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 1: Show business unusual.

708
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 3: Have you ever been told just be yourself? I mean

709
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 3: maybe when you sort of go on your first date

710
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 3: with your first ever date, you're told to be yourself.

711
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 3: You're told to be yourself in teams, in companies, in

712
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 3: the office. Is it such a good idea? Really? Superior

713
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 3: Moyl is an organizational behavior specialist Superia. I mean, sometimes

714
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 3: one can be too honest. Can one be.

715
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:52,360
Speaker 12: Yourself too much? Absolutely, Stephen. I was just thinking about

716
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 12: the first date.

717
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 2: Idea that you've just talken about.

718
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 12: Don't hunt be yourself completely on your first daed, And

719
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 12: I think it's such a really nice analogy for me,

720
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 12: because I think authenticity can be a very very good thing.

721
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,799
Speaker 12: But I think that's like anything else, we can take

722
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 12: it too far, or we can misunderstand it, and it

723
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 12: becomes very counterproductive. So for I was in an organizational

724
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 12: behavior conference recently and we're discussing a book by I

725
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:23,839
Speaker 12: called doctor Thomas Tomorrow. The book is called it Don't

726
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:27,640
Speaker 12: be yourself while Authenticity is Overrated, And I think it

727
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 12: challenged me, Stephen, to be honest with you, because what

728
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 12: if the version of you that's showing up every day

729
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:37,920
Speaker 12: is reactive or maybe defensive or emotionally underdeveloped. Is that

730
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 12: the version you want to bring on that first dage?

731
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:43,479
Speaker 12: Is that the version you want to bring on at work?

732
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 3: I think not. Yeah, I mean you've you kind of

733
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 3: need to manage yourself. I mean to put this in

734
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 3: another way, supew Here, I am a different person to

735
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:57,520
Speaker 3: my wife than I am to the listener of this

736
00:42:57,719 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 3: radio show, to the person that I am with, the

737
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:02,399
Speaker 3: people I work with who produce the radio show. I'm

738
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 3: still Steven, but I'm three different people to all of

739
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,960
Speaker 3: those all of those groups exactly.

740
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 8: I think that's the main thing.

741
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,400
Speaker 12: So when people say be your authentic self, which version.

742
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 2: Of Steven are they looking for?

743
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:18,240
Speaker 12: Because it definitely cannot be the same as the same version.

744
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 12: So if you're going to bring the brutally honest version

745
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 12: of you at work, that's probably not going to help us.

746
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:29,880
Speaker 12: Because human beings generally are quite complex. So understanding context

747
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,560
Speaker 12: and understanding where you are is very very good. So

748
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:36,839
Speaker 12: for example, if you are to open radio show luck

749
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 12: you're off tomorrow, Let's say another day and say I

750
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 12: had a completely terrible day. I'm not feeling like heaving radio.

751
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 12: That's probably not a good idea at work. So the

752
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 12: idea understanding of how complex we are and how how

753
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:52,799
Speaker 12: many cells do we have as human beings helps us

754
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 12: because you're not being authentic inauthentic, You're just being the authentic.

755
00:43:57,920 --> 00:43:58,800
Speaker 2: Work version of you.

756
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:02,320
Speaker 12: Because that's what is a quiet The book.

757
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:05,720
Speaker 3: You're talking, you're referring to her talks about authenticity traps

758
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:08,240
Speaker 3: and four main ones. I mean, what are the traps?

759
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 12: Yeah, just briefly, Stephen. The first one is the whole

760
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:15,880
Speaker 12: transparency trip, the idea that we should always be brutally honest.

761
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 1: I think that's that's not true.

762
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 12: I speak at conferences and the last thing you want

763
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:24,600
Speaker 12: is the speaker going on stage and saying I'm demotivated today.

764
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 12: It's like, that's not what we're there for. So unfiltered

765
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:31,839
Speaker 12: honesty without context is just reckless. That's the first one.

766
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:35,799
Speaker 12: It's called the transparency trip. I think the second one

767
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 12: is called the impulsive trip. The idea that we should

768
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 12: always follow your heart, and many people assume mistakenly that

769
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:47,359
Speaker 12: what you really feel, your true things, are always right.

770
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 12: But that's not true, because we can lead to poor

771
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 12: decision and failure to adapt professionally. The third one is

772
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 12: stop worrying about what others think. This is a terrible one,

773
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 12: and I think the context of the world politics that

774
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:05,359
Speaker 12: you are in, Stephen Whey, people don't seem to care

775
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:07,880
Speaker 12: about another view. This is this is a trip that

776
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,839
Speaker 12: is not good. You have to worry about what other

777
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 12: people think. That's it's a very nassistic thing to say,

778
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 12: stop worrying about about what other people think of you.

779
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 12: It's very important to worry because leadership requires transition, adaptation.

780
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,680
Speaker 12: The idea that you should never compromise or at least

781
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:32,239
Speaker 12: be someone else in a different context is wrong. And

782
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,799
Speaker 12: the last one is bring your whole self to work.

783
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 12: It is impossible to bring my whole self to work.

784
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:44,279
Speaker 12: That entire self can include being grumpy, anxious, but that's

785
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 12: not going to help us at work. So the professional

786
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:49,799
Speaker 12: version of ourselves, as you've always said, is a more

787
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 12: adaptable and required at that time.

788
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:56,760
Speaker 3: Can authenticity be sort of misunderstood.

789
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 12: Yeah, it is of misunderstood. Its divine because I mean,

790
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 12: I think we've all seen someone who and I've seen

791
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,680
Speaker 12: people who go to work and they say, I'm just

792
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 12: being myself. I'm blunt, I tell it like it is,

793
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 12: I'm being real. But what if you've been real? Erode

794
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 12: psychological safety, which is a bedrock of team effectiveness. So

795
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 12: the fact that you really means I can't ask a question.

796
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 12: The fact that you're real means I can't admit a

797
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 12: mistake because I am not safe at that moment. And

798
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:33,399
Speaker 12: by the way, as we've always argued, if I can't

799
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:36,160
Speaker 12: admit a mistakes, that means I'm hiding it, and that's

800
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 12: not good for business. So it's not just about being collegial.

801
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:42,800
Speaker 12: That's actually not good for business. You need an environment

802
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 12: where everyone to a different to a different extent, can

803
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 12: be able to show us a different version of themselves.

804
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 3: When you're a leader, you do need to be real.

805
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:58,200
Speaker 3: You can't lie over time. I mean sometimes very good

806
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 3: leaders have known have have not lie, But I found

807
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 3: ways to show a leadership version of themselves when you

808
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 3: kind of know later actually they didn't feel like it,

809
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:10,320
Speaker 3: but they managed it anyway, how do you be real

810
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 3: with being effective at the same time.

811
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:16,279
Speaker 12: That's so true, Steven, and I think for me what

812
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 12: you've said about understanding that they're a different version of

813
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:22,879
Speaker 12: a person is very important because we don't we want

814
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 12: you to be real. We just don't want you to

815
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 12: have your unfilled that self. We want your intentional selves.

816
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 12: We want a leader who knows how they are wired.

817
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 12: But they understand that I can adapt. The idea that

818
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 12: that's just who I am is not going to work.

819
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:44,040
Speaker 12: You can acknowledge your inclinations. You can acknowledge who you are,

820
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 12: but work on them. For example, I understand that when

821
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:50,880
Speaker 12: I'm in a meeting, I need to dial up certain

822
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:53,839
Speaker 12: things and dial down certain things. So, for example, if

823
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:56,440
Speaker 12: you're a leader and you want other people to speak,

824
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,319
Speaker 12: you might have to dial down the domineering. You might

825
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 12: have to listen to other people's fests. Otherwise you're going

826
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:04,759
Speaker 12: to lose as in a session to their way. It's

827
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:08,160
Speaker 12: clear some people are a little bit more introveted. And

828
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 12: if you lose out on that simply because you just

829
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 12: bring your unfilled itself now while listening to you, you're

830
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:17,799
Speaker 12: changing the climate of the meeting. And all we can

831
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:20,759
Speaker 12: do is just to nod and watch you because it's

832
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 12: your show.

833
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, so interesting, Supiram Oil being authentic, best version of

834
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 3: his work, authentic self superior. Thank you Organizational Behavior Specialists.

835
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 3: Eighteen minutes after seven The Money Show Consumer Niga, Well,

836
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:38,880
Speaker 3: it's Valentine's say on Saturday, I hope you hadn't forgotten.

837
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 3: And among all of the other things that happen, and

838
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 3: the cards and the chocolates and this and that, they're

839
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:47,400
Speaker 3: also I'm afraid to say, quite a lot of scammers.

840
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 3: Scammers often look for people who feel a bit lonely.

841
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:52,840
Speaker 3: You don't always know if you're feeling a bit lonely.

842
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:55,880
Speaker 3: They look for someone who feels a bit vulnerable and

843
00:48:56,000 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 3: they try and kind of get involved. There the an

844
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 3: African fraull prevention. So it was actually warning about Wendy.

845
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:06,319
Speaker 3: Notice your consumer Ninja, Wendy a good evening. Who gets

846
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 3: targeted in these scams? I mean, is it? I mean

847
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:11,360
Speaker 3: there's a sort of stereotype. Is it mostly women? Do

848
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 3: we even know?

849
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 11: Hi, Stephen, I don't have stats on that, but it's

850
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 11: not particularly a scam that women are targeted for men

851
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 11: as well. In fact, I was very interested to see

852
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:27,959
Speaker 11: in a story that News twenty four broke a couple

853
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:30,680
Speaker 11: of weeks ago, not even about the twenty seven year

854
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 11: old Quislin Atal man who was lured by effect job

855
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:36,400
Speaker 11: ad for a call center position in Thailand. When he

856
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 11: got there, all tickets paid, etc. He was trafficked to

857
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 11: a compound in mind Mar where he was forced to

858
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:45,920
Speaker 11: pose as a woman and target lonely older men in

859
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:49,880
Speaker 11: Europe and the US on dating sites and social media platforms,

860
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 11: and then of course scan them out of money. So

861
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 11: I mean that's a whole operation, a huge operation set

862
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:57,239
Speaker 11: up just to target men in particular, or maybe he

863
00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 11: was just part of the target men. T and the

864
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:03,160
Speaker 11: others were targeting women. But you are here to pose

865
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 11: as a woman.

866
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 8: And the thing is that.

867
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:09,239
Speaker 11: The technology now and the fact that so many people

868
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 11: are on social media and the technology such as AI

869
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:15,319
Speaker 11: is really playing into the heads and these forces, making

870
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:18,040
Speaker 11: it easier for them to pretend to be who they are.

871
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it also means that someone you can

872
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 3: find out a lot of information about someone online that

873
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:25,319
Speaker 3: the AI bott will do that for you. You can

874
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:27,719
Speaker 3: also pretend to be about one hundred different people at once,

875
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 3: targeting one hundred different people kind of over the course

876
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:30,399
Speaker 3: of an hour.

877
00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 11: Yeah, exactly, And I think that is what's happening. It

878
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:36,839
Speaker 11: must be quite a thing for them, because they play

879
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:39,600
Speaker 11: a long game, right, So they don't you know, befriends

880
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 11: someone on a dating set or some social media app

881
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 11: immediately and then start asking for money, which is the

882
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 11: end game. So they play quite a long game, and

883
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 11: they you know, they've they've really checked out what the

884
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 11: person's about from their posts and from the interaction, and

885
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:57,919
Speaker 11: so they position themselves. They create a profile of someone

886
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:01,280
Speaker 11: who is the perfect match. And of course it's syrupy

887
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:04,360
Speaker 11: language and everything's deare and I love your smile, and

888
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:06,880
Speaker 11: they never critical, as people in real life tend to

889
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 11: be after the first few days. And so it goes,

890
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 11: and so it goes for a few months. Really, I mean,

891
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 11: I've heard of some that start with the money requests sooner,

892
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:20,479
Speaker 11: but that's normally a guess. So they say stringly along

893
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:23,719
Speaker 11: these poor people men or women for several months and

894
00:51:23,880 --> 00:51:27,719
Speaker 11: several at a time before they have an emergency, a

895
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 11: temporary emergency where they need the money. And there it continues.

896
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:33,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's always that, the temporary emergency. And I mean,

897
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 3: this is, this is a classic example of a business

898
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:39,840
Speaker 3: model that has time and capital, and they deploy the capital,

899
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:42,279
Speaker 3: they invest the time, and this is the result. They

900
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:43,880
Speaker 3: wouldn't do it if they didn't make money.

901
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:47,800
Speaker 11: Exactly, And it's it's it's happening on a larger and

902
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 11: larger scale as far as I can tell. And and

903
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 11: just so clever Stephen, they tell their victims not to

904
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 11: tell their children, saying that they'll be generous or controlling

905
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:01,840
Speaker 11: and won't understand. And so they create this you and

906
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 11: me against the world story, And in fact, many from

907
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:09,239
Speaker 11: Sculptick of the Safis calls it psychological warfare. And the

908
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:11,719
Speaker 11: only defense, which is why we're having this discussion, is

909
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 11: creating awareness. So what I really want to say is

910
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:17,720
Speaker 11: if someone listening other themselves, if you have a relative

911
00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 11: who's lonely and on social media or may already be

912
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 11: on a dating site that you might not know, it's

913
00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:25,759
Speaker 11: really important to have this conversation with them so they

914
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:28,799
Speaker 11: are pre armed and don't get sucked in, because once

915
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 11: they are sucked in, I mean they imagine they I

916
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:35,160
Speaker 11: mean they believe totally that they are in a proper

917
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:38,840
Speaker 11: relationship with this scammer. So it's almost impossible to convince

918
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:43,760
Speaker 11: them otherwise. And my conclusion iving spoken to many victims

919
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:47,319
Speaker 11: and their family members, their children usually is that once

920
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:50,439
Speaker 11: they believe themselves to be in this fulfilling relationship, they'd

921
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:53,600
Speaker 11: rather lose the money than the relationship, even to pretend one.

922
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:56,760
Speaker 11: So it's a deeply psychological scam and really horrible.

923
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:00,160
Speaker 3: It's a real human vulnerability. So I mean, what do

924
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:03,400
Speaker 3: the families do. I mean, families must get quite desperate.

925
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 3: They're watching their you know, their relatives money disappearing, their inheritance.

926
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:11,680
Speaker 11: Yeah, I mean, they do get quite desperate. They involve

927
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 11: I've often often get emails from people saying could you

928
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:15,960
Speaker 11: speak to my mom or could you speak to my

929
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:18,920
Speaker 11: aunt or whatever, and they're just not open to it,

930
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 11: to listening. So that's why I said that the best

931
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:24,839
Speaker 11: we can do is trying to spread. Whereas when there's

932
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:28,080
Speaker 11: talk about these things that people you know, once and

933
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:30,759
Speaker 11: once they realize they read flags, they could perhaps you know,

934
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 11: not get sucked. And when it's before, it's too late.

935
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 11: And I mean the family members. Doctor Phil you know

936
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 11: his show Us, he focuses on this a lot, and

937
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:42,719
Speaker 11: he gets the children and the parent in and there

938
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:45,880
Speaker 11: you see the psychological trap where the mother, the woman

939
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:50,160
Speaker 11: is just refusing point black, to let go of it,

940
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:53,120
Speaker 11: to let go of the fantasy. And and what they

941
00:53:53,160 --> 00:53:55,759
Speaker 11: are letting go of their money As you say, they've

942
00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:59,960
Speaker 11: they've watched the house, they've they lose everything, They lose everything.

943
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:02,960
Speaker 3: What are the signs? I mean, how do you spot

944
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 3: these scammers?

945
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:07,800
Speaker 11: Okay, so lots of red flags. They avoid in person

946
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:11,320
Speaker 11: meetings because now I used to say, switch to a

947
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:13,400
Speaker 11: video and you know if they won't think, you know,

948
00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:15,759
Speaker 11: to scam. But now with aar they can take their

949
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:19,120
Speaker 11: fake profile persona and get them to talk.

950
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:20,279
Speaker 1: Wow.

951
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 11: You know, so it can be a man pretending to

952
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:23,240
Speaker 11: be a woman easily.

953
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:24,279
Speaker 7: So that's not it.

954
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:26,440
Speaker 11: That's not a thing anymore. But definitely they will avoid

955
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:29,320
Speaker 11: it in person meeting. They take an unusual interest in

956
00:54:29,360 --> 00:54:32,839
Speaker 11: personal details, so your birthday, your anniversaries, children's names, pets, names,

957
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:36,640
Speaker 11: and other sensitive information because not only to establish a rapport,

958
00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 11: but they can use the especially older people will use

959
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 11: that information as they passwords, so then they can scan

960
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:45,520
Speaker 11: them in other ways, get into their bank accounts and things.

961
00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:47,799
Speaker 11: Requests for money is a big one, but of course

962
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:50,080
Speaker 11: by the time that happens the person believes themselves to

963
00:54:50,120 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 11: be in a real relationship. This is their person. They

964
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:56,000
Speaker 11: love this person, and so you're going to give somebody

965
00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:57,799
Speaker 11: you love some money if they ask for it. It's

966
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:01,040
Speaker 11: a temporary emergency. So so yeah, that one is often

967
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 11: comes too late for the person to be you know,

968
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:07,920
Speaker 11: realize that this is a red flag.

969
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:11,960
Speaker 3: How do you make sure that this doesn't happen to

970
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:13,640
Speaker 3: you or someone in your family? I mean there must

971
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:15,960
Speaker 3: be I suppose there must be some ways that you

972
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 3: can protect yourself. And obviously you need to start by

973
00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 3: telling people that this could happen.

974
00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:22,680
Speaker 11: Yeah, I'm telling them people around you, the older people, well,

975
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:24,840
Speaker 11: anyone who's lonely and vulnerable and might be looking for

976
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:28,600
Speaker 11: love online. Limit what you share online so you give

977
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:31,680
Speaker 11: insights of your life and it gives scammers information about

978
00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:34,800
Speaker 11: what can be used against you to scam you. And

979
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:38,320
Speaker 11: also maybe names and letters or whatever that could be

980
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:44,120
Speaker 11: your pins and passwords. Be skeptical. We, especially women, are

981
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:47,720
Speaker 11: socialized to be nice and accommodating, but distrust everything. Don't

982
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 11: share information personal information of course, don't transform money, transfer money.

983
00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:55,360
Speaker 11: And if you've been caught, and this is important, to

984
00:55:56,080 --> 00:55:58,400
Speaker 11: report it to the dating site or the platform, and

985
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:03,600
Speaker 11: then to YEMA, which is essay fps's fraud reporting function EMA.

986
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:06,279
Speaker 11: I'm speaking about it a lot. Y I m A,

987
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:09,800
Speaker 11: which means stop, and they give advice, and you know

988
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:12,919
Speaker 11: you report yours, you give them more information to help others.

989
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:15,879
Speaker 11: The modus operanding that you were subjected to names, use

990
00:56:15,880 --> 00:56:20,279
Speaker 11: et cetera, et cetera. And then I just finally I

991
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:24,200
Speaker 11: saw on a social media post someone who was court said,

992
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:27,120
Speaker 11: these are the big taels. They say they are widowed

993
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:30,239
Speaker 11: in the military, stationed overseas, or doctors working in the

994
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:33,279
Speaker 11: World Health Organization, all very noble things. And of course

995
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 11: windows are much better than divorced. They use the word

996
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:38,160
Speaker 11: dar a lot the forces. I've noticed that they open

997
00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 11: every sentence with it. They like your smile, so always

998
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:45,200
Speaker 11: check their cell and true caller first, reverse image the

999
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:49,160
Speaker 11: images they send you pretending it's them, do several, use

1000
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:52,799
Speaker 11: several search engines, and don't share your own soul number

1001
00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:53,880
Speaker 11: until you've done all the checks.

1002
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:57,240
Speaker 3: Wen, do you know that protecting your money, your wallet

1003
00:56:57,520 --> 00:57:00,720
Speaker 3: and your heart, thank you very much. Indeed, you're consumer Ninja.

1004
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:03,759
Speaker 3: On The Money Show, The Lonely Show with.

1005
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:07,680
Speaker 4: Stephen Krudis Lion on ninety two point seven and one

1006
00:57:07,960 --> 00:57:10,760
Speaker 4: six FM was streaming on the Prime Media Plus.

1007
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 3: NAP and DStv channel eight five six twenty two minutes

1008
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:18,080
Speaker 3: now to eight o'clock. Well, you would have heard earlier.

1009
00:57:18,480 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 3: I was quite excited about this. That temperable woman, the

1010
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:25,200
Speaker 3: test cricket captain and someone who I hold in very

1011
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:27,400
Speaker 3: high regard, was going to speak to us and to

1012
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:29,640
Speaker 3: be your shape shift of this evening. And unfortunately I

1013
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:33,360
Speaker 3: have to tell you that very late. We've had a

1014
00:57:33,520 --> 00:57:36,480
Speaker 3: very big apology, I must just say, but unfortunately that

1015
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:39,520
Speaker 3: conversation is not going to happen this evening. From what

1016
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:43,400
Speaker 3: I can see, it's unavoidable, I'm afraid. So do apologize.

1017
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:47,560
Speaker 3: Two things really. One, we've had plenty of apologies from them.

1018
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:51,439
Speaker 3: And I apologize to you because I was looking forward

1019
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:54,080
Speaker 3: to presenting temperable Woman to you, and I'm sure you

1020
00:57:54,160 --> 00:57:57,320
Speaker 3: were looking forward to hearing him. So unfortunately that's not

1021
00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:00,720
Speaker 3: going to happen tonight. I'm sorry about that. The joy, though,

1022
00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:03,600
Speaker 3: of doing a shape Shifter interview once a week, is

1023
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:06,400
Speaker 3: that it gives us so much choice of so many

1024
00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:10,280
Speaker 3: great guests to go back to and listen to again,

1025
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:11,920
Speaker 3: here's one of our favorites.

1026
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:14,280
Speaker 1: The Money Show shape Shifters.

1027
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:16,880
Speaker 3: Well, there's some companies that really do touch you in

1028
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:21,120
Speaker 3: many different ways without you necessarily knowing it. One of them,

1029
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:24,320
Speaker 3: I would argue is Trance Union Africa. I suppose the

1030
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:26,880
Speaker 3: best way to describe it might be a credit bureau

1031
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:29,800
Speaker 3: as many other things as well, and your shape Shifter

1032
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:34,560
Speaker 3: tonight is their CEO, Lee Nike. Lee, good evening. Thanks

1033
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:36,800
Speaker 3: so much for joining us tonight. I really appreciate you

1034
00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:39,480
Speaker 3: taking the time on The Money Show this Wednesday evening.

1035
00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:41,800
Speaker 2: Good evening, Stein, and thank you for having me.

1036
00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:45,200
Speaker 3: I do want to start at the very beginning, and

1037
00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:48,720
Speaker 3: the earliest that I could find online was that you

1038
00:58:48,800 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 3: started with a BS in computer science at the University

1039
00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:56,479
Speaker 3: of quaziln Hotel from nineteen ninety five, and I wanted

1040
00:58:56,520 --> 00:58:58,560
Speaker 3: to start by asking you if that's the part of

1041
00:58:58,600 --> 00:59:00,720
Speaker 3: the country that you had originally come, if we had

1042
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:01,920
Speaker 3: to travel there to study.

1043
00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:08,080
Speaker 13: Well, absolutely, I actually grew up in Chatsworth in Durban

1044
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:10,640
Speaker 13: in South Africa, so I actually grew up there and

1045
00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:13,520
Speaker 13: and he moved to Johannesburg when I got my first

1046
00:59:13,640 --> 00:59:15,280
Speaker 13: job back with Anderson Consulting.

1047
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:20,280
Speaker 3: What kind of community were you growing up in? I mean,

1048
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:25,080
Speaker 3: Chatsworth has a particular history in South Africa, particularly in

1049
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:29,360
Speaker 3: Ettequini in Durban. And what kind of family were you

1050
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:32,200
Speaker 3: coming from? What were you thinking of doing as you

1051
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:32,840
Speaker 3: were growing up?

1052
00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:36,960
Speaker 13: Well, it's a really good and complex questions even I

1053
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:38,760
Speaker 13: guess the first thing to say is that I grew

1054
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:42,479
Speaker 13: up in quite an impoverished community in Chatsworth, like many

1055
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:45,880
Speaker 13: townships in a part South Africa, and I grew up

1056
00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:47,200
Speaker 13: in a time of a part eight.

1057
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:48,320
Speaker 2: So that's the first point.

1058
00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:50,680
Speaker 13: The second point is that if you grew up in

1059
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:55,440
Speaker 13: a tough neighborhood where crime poverty is a an extreme,

1060
00:59:56,040 --> 00:59:58,760
Speaker 13: it typically falls to the mother in your household to

1061
00:59:58,840 --> 00:59:59,880
Speaker 13: keep you on the straights and era.

1062
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:01,720
Speaker 2: So in my house was.

1063
01:00:01,800 --> 01:00:04,800
Speaker 13: Quite a regiment of going to school, doing his studies

1064
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:08,080
Speaker 13: and keeping out of mischief, and in the end you

1065
01:00:08,200 --> 01:00:11,320
Speaker 13: end up becoming a lot academically stronger. And I always

1066
01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:14,240
Speaker 13: remember my mom keeping us in that straight and narrow

1067
01:00:14,720 --> 01:00:17,439
Speaker 13: and that big view was the only way to break

1068
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:20,600
Speaker 13: out of your circumstance of being grown up in poverty

1069
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:23,720
Speaker 13: is to study and hope that you'll get a scholarship

1070
01:00:23,840 --> 01:00:28,360
Speaker 13: to go on to university. She did something quite interesting, Stephen.

1071
01:00:28,680 --> 01:00:31,000
Speaker 13: I grew up in a time of no heroes, so

1072
01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:34,240
Speaker 13: born in nineteen seventy six, which is an important here

1073
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:38,000
Speaker 13: in our history, graduating from high school in ninety four

1074
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:40,920
Speaker 13: important here in our democracy. But when I was growing up,

1075
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:43,760
Speaker 13: we actually didn't know any hero So any person that

1076
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:46,640
Speaker 13: was your role model was your mom, and in my case,

1077
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:49,680
Speaker 13: your mom kind of reminded you the consequences of not

1078
01:00:49,840 --> 01:00:53,440
Speaker 13: studying and working hard was ending up in the township

1079
01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:56,200
Speaker 13: and never breaking out of the potential that you may

1080
01:00:56,280 --> 01:00:59,560
Speaker 13: see in yourself. So that allowed me, Stephen, to break

1081
01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:02,400
Speaker 13: out actually optin a scholarship to go on to university,

1082
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:05,200
Speaker 13: without which we wouldn't have been able to afford to

1083
01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:06,840
Speaker 13: fund my further studies.

1084
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:10,680
Speaker 3: I was thinking about that time. There's just a one

1085
01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:14,439
Speaker 3: year's age difference between you and I. I'm slightly older,

1086
01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:17,560
Speaker 3: and I was lucky enough for my teenage years because

1087
01:01:18,080 --> 01:01:20,600
Speaker 3: of the very different suburbs that I grew up in.

1088
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:24,360
Speaker 3: My father had a personal computer at home, and while

1089
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:27,360
Speaker 3: I never really thought of going into it, I was

1090
01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:30,440
Speaker 3: lucky enough to play around with it. I mean, what

1091
01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:32,160
Speaker 3: else are you going to do while he's at work? Right,

1092
01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:35,400
Speaker 3: and I was thinking about how difficult it must have

1093
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:39,680
Speaker 3: been to go from Chatsworth to Straighten too computer science.

1094
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:42,000
Speaker 3: When I mentioned the opportunities for you to do the

1095
01:01:42,040 --> 01:01:43,280
Speaker 3: same were incredibly limited.

1096
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:46,280
Speaker 13: Well, it's really interesting and I'll tell you a story

1097
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:49,240
Speaker 13: that very few people don't know about me. So when

1098
01:01:49,280 --> 01:01:52,040
Speaker 13: I was in Grade three or Standard one, as you

1099
01:01:52,080 --> 01:01:55,400
Speaker 13: and I both would know from our childhoods, I had

1100
01:01:55,440 --> 01:01:59,360
Speaker 13: the chance when computers were first introduced to the teachers

1101
01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:02,920
Speaker 13: of Chatsworth. It this is literally in the foremost years

1102
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:06,280
Speaker 13: of our schooling careers. And I guess I was smarter

1103
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:09,480
Speaker 13: than a lot of kids in my school. But I

1104
01:02:09,560 --> 01:02:12,640
Speaker 13: remember a very specific day back in Standard one or

1105
01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:16,280
Speaker 13: grade three, where a minibus taxi picked up kids from

1106
01:02:16,360 --> 01:02:19,520
Speaker 13: all the schools in Chatsworth and busters over to the

1107
01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:22,840
Speaker 13: chats With Teacher's Training Center and seven for the first

1108
01:02:22,920 --> 01:02:24,920
Speaker 13: time in my life, I saw this thing that was

1109
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:28,240
Speaker 13: called a computer, something that you were familiar with, I guess, but.

1110
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:30,680
Speaker 2: It was this, you know, this big monster of a

1111
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:31,720
Speaker 2: monochrome on it.

1112
01:02:32,000 --> 01:02:35,800
Speaker 13: With black and green. And more interestingly, they had shown

1113
01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:39,560
Speaker 13: us a teaching tool called a logo robot.

1114
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:42,280
Speaker 3: I was going to say, surely, tell me. It was logo.

1115
01:02:42,360 --> 01:02:43,720
Speaker 3: I remember it so absolutely.

1116
01:02:43,960 --> 01:02:46,000
Speaker 2: So we had a logo robot on the floor.

1117
01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:47,960
Speaker 13: And this is a person that you know, we bare

1118
01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:51,440
Speaker 13: had enough to make ends meet, and school was walking

1119
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:53,160
Speaker 13: to school every day and all we did was what

1120
01:02:53,280 --> 01:02:56,000
Speaker 13: we did. So for this one day, Stephen, we got

1121
01:02:56,080 --> 01:02:58,760
Speaker 13: to on a weekend go after the teacher's training center

1122
01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:01,640
Speaker 13: and we got to tie and you know, left command

1123
01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:04,919
Speaker 13: five steps forward and he heard the logo robot moved

1124
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:09,080
Speaker 13: on the floor. And that's interesting because that was a

1125
01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:12,080
Speaker 13: grade three. The first time I owned an actual computer

1126
01:03:12,360 --> 01:03:15,400
Speaker 13: was my final year of university. But back then, in

1127
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:19,840
Speaker 13: said one, I saw something and it's it's interesting because

1128
01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:22,320
Speaker 13: it's such an early stage of my career, but it

1129
01:03:22,440 --> 01:03:25,040
Speaker 13: felt like something different to everything else I knew in

1130
01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:27,920
Speaker 13: my community, where they were no role models that you

1131
01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:32,240
Speaker 13: had access to or saw, and that kind of shaped

1132
01:03:32,720 --> 01:03:35,560
Speaker 13: my folks and listening to my mom focusing on that

1133
01:03:36,160 --> 01:03:38,919
Speaker 13: and taking up many opportunities. And then if I fast

1134
01:03:39,040 --> 01:03:42,280
Speaker 13: trapped that story when the neighborhood I grew up, and

1135
01:03:42,360 --> 01:03:45,680
Speaker 13: it's called Bayview in Chatsworth, and back then, you may remember,

1136
01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:49,120
Speaker 13: we had no suburb names. We actually had numbers. I

1137
01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:52,400
Speaker 13: grew up in Unit to Chatsworth, and when we first

1138
01:03:52,480 --> 01:03:56,040
Speaker 13: had libraries, at some point we read so many books

1139
01:03:56,080 --> 01:04:00,040
Speaker 13: a week that I stumbled upon programming language books. And

1140
01:04:00,120 --> 01:04:02,760
Speaker 13: I'd learned to program with a bunch of other kids

1141
01:04:03,240 --> 01:04:06,480
Speaker 13: on pieces of paper. And my mom, being the stal

1142
01:04:06,520 --> 01:04:10,160
Speaker 13: wart she was she and she's a both my parents

1143
01:04:10,240 --> 01:04:13,120
Speaker 13: dropped out of high school to look after their own families.

1144
01:04:13,600 --> 01:04:15,800
Speaker 13: She went off to the high school one year and

1145
01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:19,000
Speaker 13: said to the high school teachers, you guys have computers.

1146
01:04:19,080 --> 01:04:22,840
Speaker 13: These boys want access to them. And so I had access,

1147
01:04:23,240 --> 01:04:25,360
Speaker 13: you know, to computers in my high school. And then

1148
01:04:25,400 --> 01:04:28,320
Speaker 13: I went on to study computer science. For the time

1149
01:04:28,360 --> 01:04:31,320
Speaker 13: I got onto, I guess study at eight or grade

1150
01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:34,280
Speaker 13: ten when you could choose subjects. So I guess I

1151
01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:37,680
Speaker 13: had that signal amongst the noise, this could be different.

1152
01:04:38,120 --> 01:04:41,400
Speaker 13: And I followed this part not knowing where it'll take me,

1153
01:04:41,640 --> 01:04:45,080
Speaker 13: And for whatever reason, by backing that pathway, I ended

1154
01:04:45,160 --> 01:04:48,480
Speaker 13: up right now chatting Stephen Curtis on shape Shifters.

1155
01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:52,840
Speaker 3: So you study at UKs it in and I was

1156
01:04:52,880 --> 01:04:56,040
Speaker 3: trying to put the numbers together without missing five steps.

1157
01:04:56,080 --> 01:05:00,520
Speaker 3: But it seemed that you went from studying so literally

1158
01:05:00,600 --> 01:05:03,240
Speaker 3: quite a big position at Arth Anderson then literally managing

1159
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:06,400
Speaker 3: director for IT Strategy and Transformation. I mean, no matter

1160
01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:08,440
Speaker 3: how you diesid, you must have been doing that at

1161
01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:09,200
Speaker 3: a very young age.

1162
01:05:10,000 --> 01:05:12,960
Speaker 13: Well, I guess when you spend nineteen years in one company,

1163
01:05:13,040 --> 01:05:15,040
Speaker 13: you kind of can't cover the entire thing in your

1164
01:05:15,120 --> 01:05:19,000
Speaker 13: LinkedIn resume. But it's actually interesting story. Stevens. I mentioned

1165
01:05:19,080 --> 01:05:22,320
Speaker 13: briefly that if I hadn't gotten a scholarship, I wouldn't

1166
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:25,000
Speaker 13: have gone to university, and it so happened that I'd

1167
01:05:25,040 --> 01:05:29,360
Speaker 13: gotten a Telcom scholarship for computer science to go to

1168
01:05:29,600 --> 01:05:32,560
Speaker 13: UKs at n at the time. And it's interesting that

1169
01:05:32,720 --> 01:05:35,480
Speaker 13: my final year of university I had the chance to

1170
01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:39,800
Speaker 13: do vacation work at Telcom in their Durban offices, and

1171
01:05:39,840 --> 01:05:42,560
Speaker 13: as you well know, head office is pretorious, so you

1172
01:05:42,600 --> 01:05:43,400
Speaker 13: didn't get much.

1173
01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:46,440
Speaker 2: Chance to experiment and see what potential there was.

1174
01:05:46,960 --> 01:05:49,640
Speaker 13: And after having done all this work to break out

1175
01:05:49,680 --> 01:05:53,000
Speaker 13: of my circumstances in Chatsworth, it didn't feel like being

1176
01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:54,480
Speaker 13: a developer was the way forward.

1177
01:05:54,680 --> 01:05:56,520
Speaker 2: And it's interesting that.

1178
01:05:56,880 --> 01:05:59,840
Speaker 13: When the companies do their university wrote shows that you,

1179
01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:02,760
Speaker 13: as you'd remember in our final years of UNI, you

1180
01:06:02,880 --> 01:06:05,640
Speaker 13: get to see what these guys have to offer, and

1181
01:06:05,840 --> 01:06:08,640
Speaker 13: very similar to Harry Kellen that actually was with Arthur

1182
01:06:08,720 --> 01:06:12,320
Speaker 13: Anderson in your show. A couple of weeks ago, I

1183
01:06:12,560 --> 01:06:16,120
Speaker 13: joined the sister company called Anderson Consulting, which is the

1184
01:06:16,160 --> 01:06:18,120
Speaker 13: opposite of the tax and accounting.

1185
01:06:17,720 --> 01:06:21,800
Speaker 2: Business in that nineteen ninety eight time frame.

1186
01:06:21,920 --> 01:06:25,520
Speaker 13: So and I started my career not in strategy, actually

1187
01:06:25,560 --> 01:06:30,080
Speaker 13: started my career in deep technology. When I started, we're

1188
01:06:30,120 --> 01:06:33,000
Speaker 13: still the earliest part of our democracy, and as a

1189
01:06:33,080 --> 01:06:36,360
Speaker 13: technology guy, I got to work on the coodest things ever, Stephen.

1190
01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:39,320
Speaker 13: So my first project, for example, was to help build

1191
01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:43,800
Speaker 13: the IEC that delivered the nineteen ninety nine elections. Nineteen

1192
01:06:43,840 --> 01:06:48,920
Speaker 13: ninety four was kind of put together quite rapidly to

1193
01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:52,800
Speaker 13: deliver the elections, but nineteen ninety nine we created the democracy.

1194
01:06:53,440 --> 01:06:56,280
Speaker 13: I went from there to work with doctor Padilo Hotler

1195
01:06:56,640 --> 01:06:58,720
Speaker 13: as a youngster twenty two to twenty three years of

1196
01:06:58,760 --> 01:07:01,640
Speaker 13: age under mani senior people, but I got to work

1197
01:07:01,720 --> 01:07:04,280
Speaker 13: on Census two thousand and one. So me in regard

1198
01:07:04,440 --> 01:07:07,280
Speaker 13: as a youngster, I got to see democracy come to

1199
01:07:07,480 --> 01:07:10,800
Speaker 13: life in a world where technology was enabling us to

1200
01:07:11,400 --> 01:07:13,720
Speaker 13: see our potential and its earliest phases.

1201
01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:16,720
Speaker 2: And then, as you called out on my LinkedIn. I

1202
01:07:16,840 --> 01:07:18,240
Speaker 2: got to then move.

1203
01:07:18,160 --> 01:07:22,080
Speaker 13: From being indeed technology to seeing the value of technology

1204
01:07:22,520 --> 01:07:25,640
Speaker 13: in solving business and governmental problems. And I was asked

1205
01:07:25,720 --> 01:07:29,200
Speaker 13: to head up IT strategy, probably around eight years into

1206
01:07:29,280 --> 01:07:31,880
Speaker 13: my career, very very young, so I was one of

1207
01:07:31,920 --> 01:07:35,160
Speaker 13: the youngest partners at thirty one to make partner at Accentia.

1208
01:07:37,600 --> 01:07:40,000
Speaker 3: As you talk, sort of remembering my own memories of

1209
01:07:40,080 --> 01:07:43,360
Speaker 3: that time, and there were several big transitions. There was

1210
01:07:43,680 --> 01:07:47,000
Speaker 3: the transition from the end of democracy, the end of

1211
01:07:47,080 --> 01:07:50,040
Speaker 3: a party to democracy at the transition, and then the

1212
01:07:50,080 --> 01:07:56,240
Speaker 3: beginnings of transformation. But there were also very important technological changes.

1213
01:07:56,640 --> 01:07:59,840
Speaker 3: So cell phones had come in, the use of I

1214
01:08:00,400 --> 01:08:04,400
Speaker 3: was exploding. Suddenly everybody was getting into it, and cell

1215
01:08:04,440 --> 01:08:06,680
Speaker 3: phones then we're probably what we think of AI. Now

1216
01:08:06,800 --> 01:08:11,160
Speaker 3: you know something that's going to change everything. The late

1217
01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:13,760
Speaker 3: nineties were also quite an optimistic time leading up to

1218
01:08:13,800 --> 01:08:15,920
Speaker 3: the sort of dot com boom. It must have been

1219
01:08:15,960 --> 01:08:18,560
Speaker 3: the most amazing time to be a young person in

1220
01:08:18,760 --> 01:08:21,439
Speaker 3: that field. The opportunities would have been huge to people

1221
01:08:21,520 --> 01:08:24,760
Speaker 3: older than you didn't understand it. I mean, I'm guessing here,

1222
01:08:25,120 --> 01:08:26,760
Speaker 3: and suddenly there must have been an opportunity.

1223
01:08:27,560 --> 01:08:30,800
Speaker 13: Well listen, there was ridiculous amounts of opportunity. Back in

1224
01:08:30,920 --> 01:08:34,439
Speaker 13: nineteen ninety eight when we had gotten this deal to

1225
01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:37,840
Speaker 13: help government build the elections. It is a time when

1226
01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:40,519
Speaker 13: the likes of bull Gates it sponsored the software to

1227
01:08:40,640 --> 01:08:44,000
Speaker 13: build elections, other big tech firms wanted to help us

1228
01:08:44,040 --> 01:08:47,320
Speaker 13: realize our democracy and it was fascinating. People always think

1229
01:08:47,439 --> 01:08:50,880
Speaker 13: that technology needs like fast lines to run on. You'd

1230
01:08:50,920 --> 01:08:53,880
Speaker 13: be surprised that to deliver the ninety nine Men election,

1231
01:08:54,080 --> 01:08:58,439
Speaker 13: we actually ran on a one K speed, not a

1232
01:08:58,520 --> 01:09:03,879
Speaker 13: one gigabyte line one case speed using AVSE satellite technology

1233
01:09:03,920 --> 01:09:06,960
Speaker 13: because in nineteen eighty nine we didn't connect South Africa.

1234
01:09:07,479 --> 01:09:10,840
Speaker 13: Even today we're not connected. We have such a group

1235
01:09:10,960 --> 01:09:14,280
Speaker 13: for growth in terms of coverage of technology. But back

1236
01:09:14,320 --> 01:09:16,640
Speaker 13: in nineteen ninety eight nineteen eighty nine, the one thing

1237
01:09:16,720 --> 01:09:19,800
Speaker 13: we did have was a low orbit vset technology covering

1238
01:09:19,840 --> 01:09:22,160
Speaker 13: the country and we actually use that to build the

1239
01:09:22,240 --> 01:09:24,960
Speaker 13: first elections for or the second elections. But the first

1240
01:09:25,000 --> 01:09:28,120
Speaker 13: technology enabled one in nineteen ninety nine, So in terms

1241
01:09:28,120 --> 01:09:30,600
Speaker 13: of pulling that off, it was so fascinating that we

1242
01:09:30,720 --> 01:09:34,160
Speaker 13: had we had countries come visit the election center where

1243
01:09:34,360 --> 01:09:37,240
Speaker 13: universities come and see things that had never ever been

1244
01:09:37,320 --> 01:09:39,759
Speaker 13: done in our country. So you're right as a youngster

1245
01:09:40,000 --> 01:09:42,680
Speaker 13: literally at twenty one and twenty two, you start and

1246
01:09:42,720 --> 01:09:44,360
Speaker 13: see things that had never ever been done in this

1247
01:09:44,479 --> 01:09:47,720
Speaker 13: country before, and you got to showcase that to other

1248
01:09:47,840 --> 01:09:50,519
Speaker 13: people that only read the theory of what was possible.

1249
01:09:50,640 --> 01:09:53,680
Speaker 13: So absolutely fascinating time to be alive and to be

1250
01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:56,680
Speaker 13: an active part of our early democracy.

1251
01:09:58,080 --> 01:10:02,479
Speaker 3: When you are making this decisions? Now, does that time

1252
01:10:02,760 --> 01:10:05,679
Speaker 3: inform me or thinking? Because you've seen how quickly things

1253
01:10:05,760 --> 01:10:08,679
Speaker 3: can change. The thing about that time was that because

1254
01:10:08,760 --> 01:10:11,719
Speaker 3: so much was changing, you could actually institute a new system.

1255
01:10:11,760 --> 01:10:13,720
Speaker 3: A young person could come along and say you can

1256
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:15,880
Speaker 3: do it better, and you would be allowed to. Now

1257
01:10:16,439 --> 01:10:20,360
Speaker 3: we don't have that moment. Now we have systems in place,

1258
01:10:20,439 --> 01:10:23,120
Speaker 3: and so to change things is much harder. So does

1259
01:10:23,200 --> 01:10:25,760
Speaker 3: that time still inform how you make decisions now when

1260
01:10:25,800 --> 01:10:26,679
Speaker 3: you're running a company.

1261
01:10:28,000 --> 01:10:28,679
Speaker 2: I think it does.

1262
01:10:28,760 --> 01:10:32,519
Speaker 13: Stephen, One of the things that I think most leaders

1263
01:10:32,680 --> 01:10:36,280
Speaker 13: try to focus on is how to align the entire.

1264
01:10:36,240 --> 01:10:38,040
Speaker 2: Business on a bigger purpose.

1265
01:10:38,080 --> 01:10:40,160
Speaker 13: Where we talk about the bigger purpose and I talk

1266
01:10:40,200 --> 01:10:43,800
Speaker 13: about solving problems at matter and when I close my

1267
01:10:43,880 --> 01:10:46,160
Speaker 13: eyes as a CEO, I don't think of the revenue

1268
01:10:46,160 --> 01:10:49,360
Speaker 13: and the margin. I think of the better life for

1269
01:10:49,439 --> 01:10:51,360
Speaker 13: all our people. I think about growing up in an

1270
01:10:51,400 --> 01:10:53,719
Speaker 13: OURDP house, in chats with and sleeping on the floor.

1271
01:10:54,200 --> 01:10:57,320
Speaker 13: So I have that context that keeps me firm on

1272
01:10:57,760 --> 01:11:01,000
Speaker 13: regardless of your tribulation of the challenge you're going through,

1273
01:11:01,400 --> 01:11:03,479
Speaker 13: how do we see beyond the challenge? So the first

1274
01:11:03,560 --> 01:11:07,040
Speaker 13: thing is to do you personally believe in what you're

1275
01:11:07,040 --> 01:11:09,759
Speaker 13: doing and if you can, then actually very few challenges

1276
01:11:09,800 --> 01:11:12,360
Speaker 13: would come your way. And as a newcomer to this

1277
01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:15,719
Speaker 13: TransUnion business. And it's interesting the way you introduced our business.

1278
01:11:16,080 --> 01:11:18,360
Speaker 13: We've been around for one hundred and twenty four years.

1279
01:11:18,960 --> 01:11:21,720
Speaker 13: When I arrived nine years ago. Well they were there

1280
01:11:21,760 --> 01:11:24,240
Speaker 13: already before I got there, So LENI wasn't going to

1281
01:11:24,320 --> 01:11:27,160
Speaker 13: come in and give them a miraculous cure to all

1282
01:11:27,240 --> 01:11:29,960
Speaker 13: their ailments. I had to find a way to get

1283
01:11:30,040 --> 01:11:32,640
Speaker 13: people to bind that journey. I had to find a

1284
01:11:32,760 --> 01:11:36,200
Speaker 13: way to appreciate that unlike in the world of consulting

1285
01:11:36,280 --> 01:11:39,920
Speaker 13: and big tech change, you can't change everything. So starting

1286
01:11:40,000 --> 01:11:43,280
Speaker 13: to realize what cards you've been dealt and working with

1287
01:11:43,320 --> 01:11:46,679
Speaker 13: those cards where they physically technological pieces, or the people

1288
01:11:46,720 --> 01:11:50,240
Speaker 13: that work in the organization who CEOs create a recipiece

1289
01:11:50,280 --> 01:11:53,599
Speaker 13: for success using what you have at your disposal, because

1290
01:11:53,720 --> 01:11:56,560
Speaker 13: big bowl change isn't something you can afford to do

1291
01:11:56,640 --> 01:11:59,320
Speaker 13: from a cost perspective, or may have the time to

1292
01:11:59,479 --> 01:12:02,200
Speaker 13: do given in times to horizons.

1293
01:12:03,360 --> 01:12:05,679
Speaker 3: We're speaking to Lee Nike. He's the Seer of trans

1294
01:12:05,800 --> 01:12:09,560
Speaker 3: Union Africa. Is your shape Shifter tonight on The Money Shows.

1295
01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:13,919
Speaker 9: The Money Show, Stephens is brought to you by Absolve

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Speaker 9: Corporate and Investment Banking, balancing economic growth with ecosystems. That's

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Speaker 9: how they've invested in your story.

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Speaker 1: The Money Show Shape Shifters.

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Speaker 3: Your shape Shifter tonight, the Seer of trans Union Africa,

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Speaker 3: Lee Nike.

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Speaker 10: Lee.

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Speaker 3: When I look to the world ahead, and we've been

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Speaker 3: talking a lot about it and that and that technology,

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Speaker 3: I see a lot of future. I think AI has

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Speaker 3: a lot of future. There are a lot of a

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Speaker 3: lot of threats as well, and I don't want to

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Speaker 3: go into specifics on this, but one of the things

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Speaker 3: I see is just so many sort of bad actors,

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Speaker 3: you know, hackers is one example. I sometimes think if

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Speaker 3: I were we're running a company like yours, I would

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Speaker 3: be I'll go to bed one night, probably on a

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Speaker 3: Friday night, so excited about the sort of possi ability

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Speaker 3: of what can happen in the next five years. And

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Speaker 3: I would go to bed on another night, maybe at

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Speaker 3: Sunday night, actually quite worried about things because there is

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Speaker 3: so much to sort of guard against. At the moment,

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Speaker 3: it feels, I mean, maybe I'm just getting old and pessimistic.

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Speaker 13: Well, I can confirm that you and I have both

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Speaker 13: getting old, Stevens, that is true. I think the role

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Speaker 13: of a leader in a very digital centric world is

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Speaker 13: to have this control tower bird's eye view of all

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Speaker 13: the pieces.

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Speaker 2: That are in front of us. You know, with the

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Speaker 2: many challenges that.

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Speaker 13: Africa has, there's also equally opportunity so but equally so,

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Speaker 13: there are challenges that create these risks. Where it is cyber,

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Speaker 13: where it is fraud, what is the lack of trust

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Speaker 13: which is a bigger issue than both cyber and fraud

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Speaker 13: in Africa, where we just don't trust each other as

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Speaker 13: humans forget AI for that matter. And I think it's

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Speaker 13: about being able to balance this and as I mentioned

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Speaker 13: earlier before the break, your ability you connect with a

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Speaker 13: bigger purpose. In my case, I think about the problems

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Speaker 13: that guide me to see all these pieces with calm

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Speaker 13: and in compartments, because otherwise you'll just be too stressed out.

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Speaker 13: Something like financial inclusion or what I called solving a

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Speaker 13: problem that matters. These are the things that help CEOs

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Speaker 13: guide all through all these challenges, because if it wasn't

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Speaker 13: something bigger, you'd be overwhelmed by the challenges of the

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Speaker 13: moment that.

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Speaker 2: We have to deal with.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I suppose you also have to have

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Speaker 3: to think about what is going to change. Do you

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Speaker 3: have a vision of the future in some way? I mean,

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Speaker 3: are there certain trends that you can see of how

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Speaker 3: AI and IT trends are going to change our lives?

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Speaker 3: In the end, it's all about data and numbers.

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Speaker 13: Listen, I've been writing about and talking about this forever.

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Speaker 2: You probably see my LinkedIn profile.

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Speaker 13: Back in twenty twelve, we spoke about the rise of

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Speaker 13: FNB to step up against the Amazons of the world.

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Speaker 13: You remember that time where we said every business is

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Speaker 13: a digital business. As early as that period, Stephen, we

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Speaker 13: forecast that around by twenty thirty, almost half of jobs

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Speaker 13: that exist will be replaced by automation. So in many

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Speaker 13: regards what is happening today, and maybe even at a

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Speaker 13: faster pace is happening like we foretold back in twenty

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Speaker 13: twelve and twenty thirteen. So for me, a couple of

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Speaker 13: things are happening. In my mind, I see that these

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Speaker 13: changes that are happening now, we're meant to happen. The

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Speaker 13: question for us as individuals, both you and I Steven

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Speaker 13: individually is how do we stay relevant in the world

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Speaker 13: that's changing, where jobs that we were well held in

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Speaker 13: the community are now being challenged by automation and robotic persons,

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Speaker 13: automation and just AI in and of itself. How do

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Speaker 13: you drive relevant individually? Equally so as businesses, given in

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Speaker 13: a world where things are quite tough, how do you

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Speaker 13: embrace technology as a table stakes to allow us to

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Speaker 13: become more effective and efficial and partner with technology deliver

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Speaker 13: better outcomes. A lot of what I write about is

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Speaker 13: talking about how we partner. I think that we just

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Speaker 13: are unable to do that tech is better to do,

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Speaker 13: but I think that we are better doing social and

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Speaker 13: creative intelligence.

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Speaker 3: The voice there of Lee Knight, the CEO at Trance

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Speaker 3: Union Africa a reminder, of course, that conversation we had

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Speaker 3: late last year. But yeah, very interesting to hear some

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Speaker 3: of that again and some of the issues around AI

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Speaker 3: and leadership. So fresh.

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Speaker 9: The Money Show, Stephen Croutez, is brought to you by

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Speaker 9: Absolve corporate and investment banking, balancing economic growth with ecosystems.

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01:16:41,680 --> 01:16:44,240
Speaker 9: That's how they've invested in your story.

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Speaker 3: The one wonderful comment from our market commentator earlier tonight,

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Speaker 3: James Stewart talking about the issues around around how people

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Speaker 3: are going to interpret the latest data out of the US.

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Speaker 3: He suggested this was two hours ago, that it might

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Speaker 3: take the markets a while to interpret it. How righty

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Speaker 3: was The Dow Jones is up point zero four, the

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Speaker 3: Nasdaq is down point zero eight, the S and P

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Speaker 3: five hundred is up point one six. Markets not really

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Speaker 3: knowing where to go this evening. The State of the

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Speaker 3: Nation address tomorrow night during this time on this radio station.

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Speaker 3: We'll see you again on Friday, good evening at eight

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Speaker 3: o'clock