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Speaker 1: This is more than a radio station. Is your community

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Speaker 1: of thinkers, doers, challenges and dreamers.

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Speaker 2: From the pulse of Cape Town to global.

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Speaker 3: Debates, tatesl keeps you connected join the conversation.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 1: We often talk about democracy as something that we all

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Speaker 1: participate in, but what happens when participation isn't actually accessible?

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Speaker 1: In South Africa, millions of people don't have identity documents,

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Speaker 1: means they can't vote, they struggle to get access to services,

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Speaker 1: and in many ways they actually just remain invisible to

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Speaker 1: the system. So the question becomes, can democracy be truly

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Speaker 1: inclusive if so many of them are locked out? So

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Speaker 1: many of us joining us now is activists. Imoran Makadoan,

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Speaker 1: good morning and welcome to Cape Talk.

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Speaker 2: Good morning and thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Please, Imoran, I think the first thing I want to

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Speaker 1: ask you is just help us understand the scale of

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Speaker 1: this issue. How many people are we talking about and

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Speaker 1: who are the ones that are most affected.

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Speaker 2: Well, we're talking about about four to five million South

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Speaker 2: Africans that don't have IDs that should have and then yeah,

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Speaker 2: and then in terms of voter registration, the numbers are

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Speaker 2: even even bigger. So what we are saying and what

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Speaker 2: we're highlighting is the fact that you cannot have a

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Speaker 2: democracy with such a huge number of people are excluded.

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Speaker 2: And the problem that we're having now is access to IVS,

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Speaker 2: especially for our rural communities, and especially for our vulnerable communities,

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Speaker 2: and especially for especially you know, informal settlements UH and

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Speaker 2: our unemployed citizens becomes extremely difficult. The basic cost of

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Speaker 2: an IV registration designs when forty n and take combine

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Speaker 2: that with the red tape and the long queues and

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Speaker 2: the multiple visards to your own of fees, many people

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Speaker 2: just become despondent and don't bother peoples. It doesn't really

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Speaker 2: matter to them in the daily lives so much that

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Speaker 2: they have to go through the expense of three foot

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Speaker 2: trips to our mour fees and then waiting long queues

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Speaker 2: and then not being able to access and many or

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Speaker 2: many people don't even have birth certificates, many children don't

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Speaker 2: have so they can't access these social grants, they can't

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Speaker 2: access all the benefits that's available to them. And I

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Speaker 2: think there's just absolutely no pre no education from the

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Speaker 2: Department of Our Fees, from the Department of Social Development,

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Speaker 2: from the IC in terms of ensuring that those that

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Speaker 2: are eligible to a vote, you know, has access to

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Speaker 2: an IV and you know in terms of voter registration

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Speaker 2: as well. And then we look at the results of

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Speaker 2: our polls. Do you have such a low turnout of

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Speaker 2: the registered voters and we are being governed by a

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Speaker 2: minority at the end of the day only if thirty

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Speaker 2: percent or more of eligible voters actually goes to the pole.

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Speaker 2: So we're saying this needs to be reversed in the

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Speaker 2: upcoming municipal religions.

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Speaker 1: I just want to just help us understand a little

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Speaker 1: bit some more of the barriers. Earlier this morning, I

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Speaker 1: was chatting to Lester Qibritt and he was saying how

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Speaker 1: excited he was when he turned sixteen or seventeen to

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Speaker 1: go and get his ID. I think for some of us,

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Speaker 1: particularly those of us who live in the urban areas,

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Speaker 1: who might have access to transportation or you know, access

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Speaker 1: to even just time, the luxury of time to be

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Speaker 1: able to go, maybe don't have a real understanding of

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Speaker 1: what the real life barriers are out there that's actually

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Speaker 1: preventing people from accessing their ideas.

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Speaker 2: Well, just just taxically from Kiricha to balbel or to

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Speaker 2: the nearest Holm of fees, you know, is a barrier.

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Speaker 2: The the the the one hundred and forty one fee

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Speaker 2: is a barrier if you're unemployed and if you don't

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Speaker 2: have income. Even with the incentive, we would have thought

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Speaker 2: that with the the social relief of the striskron the

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Speaker 2: three seventy that we get that that is accessible, that

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Speaker 2: we've be an incentive. But it's clearly the barriers and

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Speaker 2: the obstacles is not surmountable. So we are still finding

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Speaker 2: a huge amount of citizens. And the call from from

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Speaker 2: activists is basically the UH our departments should see this

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Speaker 2: gap and this vacuum and really do more to fully

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Speaker 2: than we are actually advocating that worthy upcoming voter registration

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Speaker 2: weekends that we'll be seeing that Homer fees should be

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Speaker 2: there as well, and it should be encouragement from especially

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Speaker 2: political parties. I would think it's important for IM to

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Speaker 2: get as many citizens registered for the IDs as well

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Speaker 2: as as on the voter's role, So it should be

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Speaker 2: the vote education should be coupled with a full service

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Speaker 2: rollout at all these voter station voting stations so that

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Speaker 2: we have a much better representation and greater awareness of democracy.

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Speaker 2: We couldn't have had this huge struggle for democracy over

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Speaker 2: three hundred years and to now, you know, be ruled

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Speaker 2: by a minority. This is what we are calling for,

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Speaker 2: is that in order for democracy to work, when it

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Speaker 2: means to be accessible to all.

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Speaker 1: Let's just talk a little bit about that accessibility because

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Speaker 1: the it's one hundred and forty rand for the ID.

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Speaker 1: I mean in a country like South Africa where you

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Speaker 1: know we thought so long to vote and it's not

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Speaker 1: the only basic right that is kind of infringed upon

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Speaker 1: if you don't have an I D there's quite a

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Speaker 1: few in a country like South Africa. Should that not

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Speaker 1: be free? Why are we still charging for ideas?

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Speaker 2: Most difficutly that that should be a service that is

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Speaker 2: free or if if the state has a way of

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Speaker 2: doing a means is that somebody has income that they

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Speaker 2: should pay, but anybody that's certified unemployed and certif without

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Speaker 2: an income, it shouldn't be a barrier to that. And

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Speaker 2: this should be even greater rollouts that the services of

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Speaker 2: road closer to the people and you should they have

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Speaker 2: ID registrations in the townships, at local schools. It should

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Speaker 2: be a lot more that shopping malls for that matter,

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Speaker 2: but it should be a lot more accessible than what

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Speaker 2: it is now. And the red type and the long

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Speaker 2: queues and the long waiting times and all of that

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Speaker 2: with the Department of own fees really becomes an obstacle

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Speaker 2: and a barrier, you know. So it's very very understandable

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Speaker 2: that somebody that will spend fifty six grandes to get

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Speaker 2: down and back on the taxi and another. So they've

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Speaker 2: got this to an advent. They're are going to get

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Speaker 2: the ID and they get the ND and they don't

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Speaker 2: get in or you know, they get turned around because

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Speaker 2: of some bureaucraetic requirement. They're not going to go the

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Speaker 2: third and fourth time, and then you just have this

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Speaker 2: huge amount of people without the ID documents.

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Speaker 1: And I mean, this is what we're talking about when

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Speaker 1: you're talking about somebody who lives in urban setting. But

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Speaker 1: I mean, we haven't even touched on what it must

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Speaker 1: be like in a rural setting. We've got somebody on

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Speaker 1: the line. I believe we've got a caller. Good morning, good.

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Speaker 5: Morning, and I'm listening on the idea now. And I

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Speaker 5: you know, when I when we were at school, that

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Speaker 5: was many moons ago, they used to come to our

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Speaker 5: schools and did at the school for us, you know,

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Speaker 5: and I think it will help especially in the kind

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Speaker 5: of tech flets and people in the urban areas, like

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Speaker 5: you said, struggling to get into the OMA phase. So

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Speaker 5: used to do that, So I don't know if they

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Speaker 5: can bring that back with the ALP.

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Speaker 1: Actually, thank you so much for your for your comment.

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Speaker 1: Is I mean, this does seem like you know, we

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Speaker 1: we we we go and we do vaccination rollouts at schools,

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Speaker 1: we do other things at schools. Why how come how

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Speaker 1: come we're not doing ID drives at schools? And and

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Speaker 1: how do we as a civic society that kind of

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Speaker 1: wants to ensure that democracy is protected, how do we

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Speaker 1: get involved but more to take up this issue because

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Speaker 1: it actually doesn't seem like an issue that's it's getting bigger.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And I think we just need to you know,

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Speaker 2: get the political powers that be, to get the political

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Speaker 2: world to do what's necessary and make the budgets available

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Speaker 2: to roll it out and and and really just check

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Speaker 2: it up as as a as a matter of urgency,

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Speaker 2: which I think we just have so much complacency, even

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Speaker 2: even with the with the with the citizens that don't

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Speaker 2: have ideas, they're just so apathetic that uh and and

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Speaker 2: and and and that we we need to basically work

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Speaker 2: on as as sovil society and as government and as

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Speaker 2: citizens is that democracy is a right and being part

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Speaker 2: of government, being able to elect to represents you, because

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Speaker 2: what you find is that with so much of the

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Speaker 2: most vulnerable underrepresented you, your politics will reflect those that

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Speaker 2: that have access to it, and so you will have

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Speaker 2: a much more middle class a gender. You won't have

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Speaker 2: the poor voices coming through and being properly represented because

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Speaker 2: they don't have access and they don't and even those

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Speaker 2: that do, they don't go to the to the polk,

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Speaker 2: they don't vote, and you can't have a thirty three

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Speaker 2: percent thirty percent turnout. It's it just doesn't. So so

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Speaker 2: it's just not Our campaign is about, you know, not

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Speaker 2: just about ideas, but actually about getting people interested in

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Speaker 2: democracy and understanding how it impacts their lives, because if

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Speaker 2: they don't have a voice, it like con be heard.

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Speaker 2: And when your morale, income and your high income brackets

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Speaker 2: have the majority of the seats in whatever council, municipality

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Speaker 2: or provincial national government, the voices of the poor and

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Speaker 2: the most vulnerable are not heard. So their concerns and

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Speaker 2: the loved realities are not being increased because they're not

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Speaker 2: properly represented. And that's why it's so important that we,

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Speaker 2: you know, go on a campaign of highlighting the importance

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Speaker 2: of having a democratic voice and being part of the.

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Speaker 1: Process, and particularly this year when we are heading to

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Speaker 1: the polls. A little bit later on, we're talking to

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Speaker 1: Imron Marcadaan. We're talking about that unseen barrier, how a

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Speaker 1: lack of IDs determines South Africa's democracy, and we do

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Speaker 1: have some voice notes. Let's go to your your comments.

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Speaker 4: The stats that are being are being given that are

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Speaker 4: being given about lack of ideas doesn't seem credible because

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Speaker 4: we have so many people that rely on grants and

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Speaker 4: to get a grant you must have an ID. So

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Speaker 4: that doesn't seem right and and it's questionable, is what

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Speaker 4: I'm saying.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, What would your comment be to that, Imran?

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Speaker 1: And perhaps the numbers are are not credible.

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Speaker 2: Yes, we have a huge amount of people on grants

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Speaker 2: and those are part of the regious system. But but

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Speaker 2: we are saying that there's a huge amount of people

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Speaker 2: that are not registered registed, and we need we need

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Speaker 2: to get get the registered and we need to take

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Speaker 2: away the barriers. And our campaign is about making it

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Speaker 2: accessible and easier to get an I D and also

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Speaker 2: uh accessible and easier to get onto the voters at all.

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Speaker 1: And Imran, where do you get your numbers from? Where

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Speaker 1: does your data come from to feed your you know

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Speaker 1: the data that that that that you share when we

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Speaker 1: say four to five million, Yeah, that.

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Speaker 2: Comes from the the the Department of Home of fees

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Speaker 2: that our population is sixty million and these a huge

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Speaker 2: amount that is unaccounted for in terms of not being

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Speaker 2: religious for its.

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Speaker 1: Can we take another comment there? Thanks Ameron.

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Speaker 3: I just hear you've got a discussion now with home

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Speaker 3: affairs and IDs, and I just wanted to share an

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Speaker 3: experience I had yesterday hours at the Home Affairs in

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Speaker 3: Weinberg picking up an ID. They treaduced so badly the

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Speaker 3: overflow for the line goes into a parking basement. So

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Speaker 3: you stand for hours and hours in a parking basemi

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Speaker 3: with no fresh air. You do not get a number,

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Speaker 3: you do not get a time slot. You just have

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Speaker 3: to stand in the line. And then they come at

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Speaker 3: twenty to three and then they say okay, now whoever

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Speaker 3: is still in nine you can go home because you're

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Speaker 3: not served. I went up and actually saw how many

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Speaker 3: people work in the office. They have one person dealing

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Speaker 3: with people who had an appointment and one person dealing

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Speaker 3: with people who didn't have an appointment. Why would Home

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Speaker 3: Affairs only have two people employed to hand out passports

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Speaker 3: and IDs at Weinberg branch. Why can't they have four

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Speaker 3: people or six people. Why can't it be that you

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Speaker 3: go and pick up and you're out of then half

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Speaker 3: an hour. Why must it take four or five six hours.

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Speaker 3: It's just completely unreasonable. So I can understand people that

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Speaker 3: don't get their IDs because it's just you get treated

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Speaker 3: so badly, so disrespectful.

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Speaker 1: I mean, is this just bureaucracy Emran, because it's exactly

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Speaker 1: the story that you're talking about. When it's when it

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Speaker 1: feels this inaccessible and this hard, then why should we

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Speaker 1: actually just go through with it because it doesn't really

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Speaker 1: serve me in the long run, I don't need it

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Speaker 1: maybe initially, but this is exactly what you're cautioning about.

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Speaker 1: And then it's almost like a lack of dignity there

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Speaker 1: some like is it only bureaucracy or is there something

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Speaker 1: else going on?

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Speaker 2: I would like to believe it's only democracy. If it's

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Speaker 2: something else, it's an agenda, because then it's political. But

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Speaker 2: it's the culture, it's the Culture Department, omphies, this is

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Speaker 2: our ease, this is the system. But we're saying that

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Speaker 2: the system in itself has been undermining our democratic rights

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Speaker 2: and our democratic process and our human rights and our dignity.

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Speaker 2: So we need, you know, the system to be checked up,

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Speaker 2: and especially with an election. So we are coupling the

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Speaker 2: campaign for you, for for IDs and for better human

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Speaker 2: dignity at our home of these officers and our registration

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Speaker 2: processes with with the democratic ideals and and the elections

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Speaker 2: coming up, and and hoping that by by starting a

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Speaker 2: campaigns as the one that we've done, we we will

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Speaker 2: create the kind of awareness to the powers that be

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Speaker 2: that that change needs to happen and and the necessary

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Speaker 2: change will bring about the necessity you know, access to democracy.

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Speaker 2: To to.

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Speaker 1: This is just It seems like such a simple thing

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Speaker 1: to fact, but yet it does seem to be carrying

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Speaker 1: carrying on. I I want to find out from you you.

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Speaker 1: I see that one of our audience members, Tracy and

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Speaker 1: did say, yes, we do not pay for our first

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Speaker 1: IDs in South Africa. So your first I d is free,

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Speaker 1: but of course anytime you need to replace that there

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Speaker 1: is a fee, and I'm not sure that they should

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Speaker 1: be a fee at all actually, because yeah, this is

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Speaker 1: such an essential, an essential tool. Your calls and comments

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Speaker 1: are always welcome, you more than welcome to send it through.

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Speaker 1: Could we possibly take Brad's voice note there as well?

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Speaker 6: Please, maybe we get the Minister for Home of Face

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Speaker 6: I think his name is Leon maybe on a maybe

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Speaker 6: he could answer these valet questions in terms of registration

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Speaker 6: or this applying for one's.

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Speaker 3: I d.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for that, Imoran. What is your engagement with

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Speaker 1: the minister being.

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Speaker 2: Like, yeah, I think the milissa should take this seriously

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Speaker 2: and we will definkly be taking it up with him.

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Speaker 1: Fantastic, all right, thank you so much. That is of

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Speaker 1: course Imron Markedam. He's an activist, really trying to raise

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Speaker 1: the alarm and throw the spotlight on that fourty five

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Speaker 1: million South Africans who do not have IDs but should actually,

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Speaker 1: especially in a year when we're going into municipal elections,

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Speaker 1: and what does this say about the future sustainability of

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Speaker 1: our democracy if people don't even have access to IDs

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Speaker 1: in order to go and vote, to go and show

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Speaker 1: up at the polling stations,