1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:02,560 Speaker 1: I read. One of the stories that I read and 2 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:06,319 Speaker 1: was interested in when I got back from my relatively 3 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: brief trip away was the decision by our next guest, 4 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:13,040 Speaker 1: Dean Macpherson, the Minister of Public Works in Infrastructure, to 5 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:17,600 Speaker 1: approach the Western Western Cape High Court for a containment 6 00:00:18,360 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: order around the Norflocks Krall. I don't know what to 7 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:25,120 Speaker 1: call it. It is a place where people are now 8 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: living and working, and it was a subject of a 9 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:33,240 Speaker 1: land invasion and occupation a reclamation of traditionally owned land. 10 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 1: Depending on your perspective. There are different ways of describing 11 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: what happened, and the original intention of the people who 12 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 1: moved on the site was to keep strict control over 13 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:46,919 Speaker 1: who came in and under what circumstances in world ward 14 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: histories and so on. But the suggestion seems to be 15 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,520 Speaker 1: that it has expanded rapidly. There might be as many 16 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: as twenty thousand people living there now. And the Minister 17 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: joins us now from Johannesburg. Dean, good afternoon, Good afternoon. 18 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 2: I'm sorry I'm not in Cape Town after hearing this 19 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 2: news of this bird, because I have the bird book 20 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 2: and here I am so okay. 21 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: Well try and of course you've got the small matter 22 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: of a DA conference to attend, so you can't get 23 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,959 Speaker 1: up to a plane a dash down. Dean, I stressed 24 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: containment order because yes, you try to make it clear 25 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: in your communications that you're not seeking an eviction of 26 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: people who live on the site. So what is a 27 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:28,319 Speaker 1: containment order? 28 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 2: Well, John, thank you for the opportunity. I think we 29 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,960 Speaker 2: need to understand what's gone on here. In twenty twenty one, 30 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 2: the Western Cape Parcourt granted a containment order for three 31 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 2: of the six urban that make up could Not Flux Kroll, 32 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 2: which around one eight hundred actes of land. That containment 33 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 2: order was never successfully implemented or operationalized, and so the 34 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 2: occupation has grown to what we see today roughly four 35 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 2: thousand structures, between fifteen and twenty thousand people. We just 36 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 2: don't know. So the first step is for us to 37 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:12,079 Speaker 2: say that this cannot continue, that we need to have 38 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 2: containment order, that the end the invasion and occupation must stop. 39 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 2: The second thing is what we're saying is that we 40 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 2: need to have a social facilitation process so we can 41 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:28,799 Speaker 2: actually map and understand who is there, why are they there, 42 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 2: what are their circumstances for being there? That will then 43 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:36,959 Speaker 2: allow government to make the necessary and rational decisions about 44 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 2: what to do from there. But we cannot have a 45 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 2: situation which we have at the moment where the rule 46 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 2: of law does not exist. People are coming onto that land, 47 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 2: they are then selling that land onwards for profit five 48 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 2: hundred grand a plot. We have evidence building houses that 49 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 2: are two stories and more bigger, blocking the end to 50 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:05,239 Speaker 2: repeatedly when government tries to create some sense of normality, 51 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:11,239 Speaker 2: pointing guns at emergency services that try and contain fires 52 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 2: or emergency situations there. And that's actually what the heart 53 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 2: of this is about, trying to restore the rule of law, 54 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 2: understanding what the real situation is there, so that we 55 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 2: can then try and chart a way forward. 56 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 1: A containment order says the people who are there now 57 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: are there now, but no new people, No more people 58 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: must come on to the land. I mean, is that 59 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: it at its crudest essence correct. 60 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 2: Absolutely, But for some time, at least for more than 61 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 2: a year, I have personally led this project with the 62 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 2: premier and the provincial minister and mayor to try and 63 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 2: get some form of dialogue and process going. We had 64 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 2: met with local community leaders. We had a reed in 65 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 2: principle that the that the containment would be agreed to 66 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 2: and the social facilitation process would be agreed to. We 67 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 2: then sent a documentary signed and then at that point 68 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:16,159 Speaker 2: at the end of last year, that was then rejected. 69 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 2: So it's unfortunate that we've now had to go to court, 70 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 2: but we have to. We have to establish some control 71 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:28,559 Speaker 2: over the situation because it is completely uncontrolled at the moment. 72 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: Look, I don't know why the containment order that was 73 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 1: originally granted on the three Aravan wasn't wasn't implemented, but 74 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 1: I can imagine it's not a difficult thing. I mean 75 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 1: that it is a difficult thing to implement. I don't 76 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: know whether the court will grant another containment order. If 77 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:46,479 Speaker 1: it does, how do you enforce it? How do you 78 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: keep the population of Norfolk Skraal stable as it is 79 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: on the day on which the containment order is granted, 80 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 1: prevented from going so that the social facilitation process can 81 00:04:58,400 --> 00:04:59,279 Speaker 1: and then unfold. 82 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 2: Well, you know, we are a country that is governed 83 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 2: by the rule of law. It's the central tenant of 84 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 2: our constitution. And if we pick and choose when the 85 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:14,560 Speaker 2: rule of law is applicable, well then you cannot control 86 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 2: law and order in a society and conflict roll represents 87 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 2: a dangerous precedent where if we choose not to act, 88 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 2: we in fact incentivize the invasion and occupation of public 89 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 2: land and buildings. Now, John, you will know that in 90 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 2: my term as Minister, I've been very, very focused on 91 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 2: reclaiming what has been taken away from government so that 92 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 2: it can be put to its best and correct use, 93 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 2: whether that is people who are occupying land outside of 94 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 2: the Union Building, outside of the Castle of Good Hope 95 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 2: in Cape Town, or various buildings that we have had 96 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 2: to reclaim. The rule of law must must be maintain, 97 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 2: so we will go back to court. We will ask 98 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 2: for a reaffirmation of the twenty twenty one order and 99 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 2: to extend it to the three urban so that we 100 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 2: are able to have points of controlled access and we 101 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:17,039 Speaker 2: are then able to start the process, a court ordered 102 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 2: social facilitation process, so we can actually understand what are 103 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 2: the needs of those living there, whether they have any 104 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 2: rights or claim to be there. I also want to 105 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 2: reiterate that there is no land claim that has ever 106 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 2: been instituted on that land, So we also need to 107 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 2: understand the dynamics of that, but it can only be 108 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 2: done through a structured process. 109 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:44,159 Speaker 1: Do you foresee a point in the future at which 110 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 1: you might be trying to get some or all of 111 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: the fifteen twenty thousand people are living there now off 112 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: that land, turning containment into eviction. 113 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 2: Well, John, let me put it this way. We have 114 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 2: evidence that there are people who have second homes inflowflux 115 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 2: crow in maybe a more basic form of English, that's 116 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 2: called a holiday home. You cannot have a legal holiday 117 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 2: home on an illegal piece of land that was bought 118 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 2: or sold to you. No person has that right to 119 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 2: do so. So in those instances, yes, most likely people 120 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 2: like that would be evicted, or people who have sold 121 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 2: land or bought land unlawfully. But there also may be 122 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 2: people who have real, genuine socioeconomic needs, but that can 123 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 2: only be established through a social facilitation process. We will 124 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 2: then be able to supply various forms of legislation in 125 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 2: terms of housing, in terms of social assistance. But it 126 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 2: can't be a case where government has no control or 127 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 2: no ability to be able to find that out. But 128 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 2: those questions can only be onset once we fully understand 129 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 2: and know what is going on there, And we have 130 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 2: tried repeatedly to do so. And I would think it 131 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 2: would be in the best interests of everyone that would 132 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 2: want us to come there and understand what's going on. 133 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 2: And it seems strange that people don't want us to 134 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 2: do that, and that's just can't be a situation that 135 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 2: we're prepared to accept. 136 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean part of the reason, maybe, lol. I 137 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: have no insights into what the communities are like there 138 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:35,319 Speaker 1: and who their representatives are and what their different positions 139 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:39,319 Speaker 1: might be. But perhaps it's simply they don't trust government 140 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: processes and they think this process is intended to get 141 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 1: them off the land and they have a home there 142 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: and they want to stay there. 143 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 2: Well, you know, John, that may be, so I won't 144 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 2: discount that. But that's why it was so frustrating that 145 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 2: we had an agreed upon process the community leaders. They 146 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:04,719 Speaker 2: agreed to our terms and conditions and then backed out 147 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 2: at the end of the day. And so, you know, 148 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 2: we have to have a structured process. No person in 149 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 2: this country has a right to claim land or buildings 150 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 2: that do not belong to them as their own. So 151 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 2: that's why we tried. We tried to go through the 152 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 2: dialogue group. We tried to go through a route where 153 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 2: we could mutually agree to something that didn't work out. 154 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 2: We now have to turn to the courts to do so. 155 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 2: And I really do sincerely hope and this is my 156 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 2: and I'm being very genuine when I say this that 157 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 2: we want to find a solution, we want to work 158 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 2: with partners, We want to understand what is going on there, 159 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:51,199 Speaker 2: because what is going on there is completely unsustainable into 160 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 2: the future. The Tear of Artists municipality, which has many 161 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 2: financial problems, is having to fork out eleven million around 162 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 2: a year for water electricity services there. That is not 163 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 2: a funded mandate for them. So the sooner we can 164 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 2: get to the bottom of what's going on, as sooner 165 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 2: we can have this dialogue and we can engage with 166 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 2: one another. I think it will certainly be for the best. 167 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:16,559 Speaker 1: Dean Macpherson, thank you for taking time away from the 168 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,319 Speaker 1: DA Congress to to us this afternoon. Minister of Public 169 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: Works and Infrastructure. We will try and get somebody from 170 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 1: community leadership. I don't know how easy it is to 171 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 1: establish that. I don't know whether there are various groups 172 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: saying that they speak on behalf of the residents, but 173 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 1: we will try and get somebody on the radio and 174 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: ask them why. Having agreed to this process, in December 175 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 1: they put an end to it.