1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:03,400 Speaker 1: A listener was very taken by a YouTube interview that 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: he had seen with somebody called Chris Fellows, who's been 3 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:10,640 Speaker 1: on my program and the program of Cape Talk colleagues 4 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: many times over the years, conservationist, wildlife photographer particular expertise 5 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: in the great white shark, and Chris was in that 6 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: YouTube video spelling out his thoughts as to why it 7 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: has been a very long time since we have seen 8 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 1: great whites in the hotspots with which we associated great 9 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: whites from perhaps a decor decade or so ago. And 10 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: I thought what he said in that interview was interesting 11 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:43,560 Speaker 1: enough to bring it to a wider audience. Hello Chris, 12 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: Hello John, how are you. I'm in reasonable health and 13 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:48,840 Speaker 1: yourself very good. 14 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 2: Thank you, Chris. 15 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: When when did the decline start? If there's an obvious 16 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: point where you can say twenty, whatever it was, that's 17 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 1: when something began to happen. 18 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 2: You know, John. So we kept detailed data from day one. 19 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 2: We started working at a white shock in fault day 20 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety six, and it was really around two thousand 21 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 2: and seven that I really started seeing the numbers starting 22 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 2: to take a slow decline. And what we also started 23 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 2: noticing at that stage was many of the regular sharks 24 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 2: that we had seen for in some cases, you know, 25 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 2: nearly a decade by that point, they suddenly stopped returning. 26 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 2: So it was already you know, as far back as 27 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 2: two thousand and seven, and then the decline continued relatively slowly, 28 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 2: but suddenly around about twenty fourteen we started noticing a 29 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,960 Speaker 2: huge decline, and by twenty eighteen, tragically, we saw the 30 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 2: last ever Grade twite at Seal Island. 31 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: And that's Nearty ten years ago. Now nothing since then. 32 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 2: We had one sighting in twenty twenty, very brief sighting 33 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 2: at the island, and then I think in twenty twenty 34 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 2: two or twenty twenty one, my wife and I saw 35 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 2: three white sharks down at Stunton Tane Pavilion. But since 36 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 2: that date, even though you know, you have three cage 37 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 2: diving operators working with Bronzeweala sharks that work in the 38 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 2: former strongholds of the white sharks, they haven't seen a 39 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 2: single white shark since that time. So, for all intents 40 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 2: and purposes, there's been one great white sharks seen at 41 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 2: Seal Island since twenty eighteen, and in the two and 42 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 2: a bit decades preceding that you know, we used to 43 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 2: see on an excellent day up to twenty three different 44 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 2: great whites. So the crash has been meteoric and yeah, 45 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 2: very well defined. 46 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: And generally when a species starts to suffer, there are 47 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 1: a couple of broad avenues of exploration. Habitat change, and 48 00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 1: the sea is changing as a habitat, it's getting a 49 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:53,799 Speaker 1: lot warmer, the abundance of prey species. And given this 50 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: is where I know you feel very strongly the Demmersal 51 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: longline industry picking up smaller sharks and sending them to 52 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: Australia to make fish and chips there, and so the 53 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: great white not that much to eat. What are the 54 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:10,639 Speaker 1: other things that one looks at? 55 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 2: So the two things that we believe, and when I 56 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 2: say we, there are a couple of non governmental shark 57 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 2: scientists and conservations ecotourism operators believe very strongly that two 58 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 2: human related causes, not awkwards that I'm sure we'll get onto, 59 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 2: have been responsible. So those two are the demersal shark 60 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 2: longline fishing industry, as you correctly touched on. And for 61 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 2: listeners who may not be aware of what demersal means, 62 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 2: it simply means bottom and then you have a shark 63 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 2: long line with hundreds of hooks. And then the other 64 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 2: industry that or organization that we believe has had a 65 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 2: tremendously negative impact on white shark populations has been Natal 66 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 2: Sharks Board that has been killing white sharks since the 67 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 2: late fifties and average of twenty five a year. So 68 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 2: you know, if you give the numbers over the years, 69 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 2: it's well over fifteen hundred white sharks that have been 70 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 2: killed by the Nutel Sharks Board. And in coupled to 71 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 2: what in more recent times has been at the hands 72 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:18,159 Speaker 2: of the long liners, you're looking at somewhere around about 73 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 2: sixty or upwards great white sharks killed per annum. 74 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:27,239 Speaker 1: So the long line fishing industry is catching great whites 75 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 1: as well despite the impact I mean, in addition to 76 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 1: the impact that they are taking that they are having 77 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: taken out the smaller shark species which are then being 78 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: sent to Australia to be battered and sold as fish. 79 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, so they don't directly catch the great whites as 80 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 2: they catch those smaller sharks. So what invariably happens, and 81 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:53,160 Speaker 2: we learned this from a whistleblower, a whistleblower working on 82 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 2: the shark. Longlining boats is when they catch these small 83 00:04:56,160 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 2: sharks that are so preferred pray species of the white sharks. 84 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 2: The white sharks obviously go grab them when they're on 85 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 2: the lines. It's a very easy meal. They swam away 86 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 2: with them, and then they get entangled in the main line, 87 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 2: so they're not actually being physically caught on a hook 88 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 2: and pulled up via that hook. They get caught in 89 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 2: the main line and then they drown. And we found 90 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:19,720 Speaker 2: out that significant, very significant numbers were actually dying at 91 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 2: the hands of these long liners. And initially we, you know, 92 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 2: we were very worried about the long liner's impacts due 93 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 2: to the fact that they were targeting what is one 94 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 2: of the key prey species of the great white, and 95 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 2: that is the smaller sharks. Most notably a species caught 96 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 2: a smoothhound and another one called a suffering shark. But 97 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 2: when the whistleblower came forward, it confirmed our worst fears 98 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 2: really that not only were they taking out the prey 99 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 2: of the white sharks, but they were also entangling and 100 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:52,359 Speaker 2: killing many of them as well. 101 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: The orcas have had an impact. The orcas have killed 102 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: great whites. There's photographic video evidence. 103 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 2: That absolutely so you know, not for a second do 104 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 2: we say that the orcers haven't had an impact. But 105 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 2: since twenty seventeen they've been roughly around about fifteen Great 106 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 2: whites that we know to have been killed by a 107 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 2: pair of orcers known as Port and Star of It. 108 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 2: So yes, certainly they have had an impact, and they 109 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 2: were probably more killed by them. But bear in mind 110 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:27,799 Speaker 2: that the precipitous crash in False Day and Kranspire's population 111 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 2: preceded the advent of us starting to even talk about 112 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:35,040 Speaker 2: these orcas. It's very difficult to blame somebody that wasn't 113 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 2: even on the crime scene. And then when you look 114 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 2: at the numbers killed by the sharks board and the longliners, 115 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 2: which as I mentioned, were upwards of fifty compared to 116 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 2: you know, fifteen over the last nine years, so let's 117 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 2: say roughly around one point five animals per year, it's 118 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 2: a poultry impact when compared to the two human induced impacts. 119 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:02,160 Speaker 1: Are the sharp nets Clasla natals still catching roughly the 120 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: same number of great whites or if has there been 121 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: a decline in the you know, the the catch in 122 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 1: the nets which reflects the decline in the species. 123 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 2: So we have seen a significant decline over the years. 124 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 2: You know, in the early years, certainly in the seventies, 125 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 2: eighties and nineties, you were averaging around about forty great 126 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 2: white sharks killed per year. And then we the Natal 127 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 2: Sharks Board also added drum lines to their bay, the 128 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 2: protection measures, and those specifically targeted great white sharks, tiger 129 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 2: sharks and thembusy sharks, and they also added to you know, 130 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 2: the death toll and the great whites. We saw decline, 131 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 2: you know, as the white shark population started declining. But interestingly, 132 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 2: and we had to go through a public Access to 133 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 2: Information Act to get the data from the Natal Sharks Board, 134 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 2: recent figures show that there was actually an uptick, and 135 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 2: not just in white shark numbers, in a couple of 136 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 2: other species as well. So yes, long term there seems 137 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 2: to be a decline, but very strangely, in the last 138 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 2: few years, it seems that Antal Shark's Board is actually 139 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 2: you know, killed significantly more sharks than we thought. 140 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: And Chris, if your analysis is correct and it sounds convincing, 141 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 1: then I don't think the long line fishing industry is 142 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: going to be have as quote has reduced or be 143 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 1: got rid of. There's always the argument about jobs and 144 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: income and so on, and I don't know if the 145 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 1: Natale Sharks Board is at all amenable to discussion about 146 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 1: removing the nets. So if those two things don't change 147 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: by by a great white shark. 148 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 2: Oh quite simply, yeah, in a wrapper, that's exactly it. 149 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 2: I think if we don't, you know, get rid of 150 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 2: the demmercial shark longlining industry, which has been caught in 151 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 2: all sorts of nefarious activities from fishing and who are 152 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 2: to targeting protected species, et cetera, or replace the natal 153 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:09,520 Speaker 2: sharks boards nets with non lethal means which do exist. 154 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 2: I don't think there is a future for the great 155 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:14,439 Speaker 2: white shark. So we need to stop pointing fingers at 156 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 2: orcas because we cannot control them, and it's a natural factor. 157 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 2: But we most certainly can control, you know, how we 158 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:25,679 Speaker 2: manage a fishery that is extremely detrimental to our coastline. 159 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 2: And there are certainly non lethal methods to replace the 160 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 2: shark nets inks, So you know, I think we really 161 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 2: need to start addressing those if we want to say 162 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 2: what essentially is the equivalent of the line of our 163 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:43,199 Speaker 2: oceans and one of the most iconic creatures in the sea. 164 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 1: Chris, is this discussion happening? Is there a chance of 165 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 1: it happening? Because I mean, what you need is two 166 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: people or two groups of people with different views prepared 167 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,560 Speaker 1: to sit down at a table and learn from each 168 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 1: other and come up with a strategy which is common 169 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 1: and sensible. What are the answers that are happening, Johnny? 170 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 2: If I have to be perfectly honest, I don't think 171 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 2: very good at the moment. And you know, I'm not 172 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 2: a scientist or research I'm a naturalist that collects a 173 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 2: huge amount of data and have done so for a 174 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 2: long time. So I've also mixed in scientific circles. And 175 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 2: what I can tell you in the shock, the scientific 176 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,679 Speaker 2: shock fraternity in South Africa is very divided and it 177 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 2: is very political, and if you sit on the one 178 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 2: side the other side don't necessarily listen to each other. 179 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 2: So I think, you know, the scientific community needs to 180 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 2: get together. They need to look at the problem, and 181 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 2: they need to assess the various points that I've been 182 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 2: put forward and come up with viable solutions to you know, 183 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:45,199 Speaker 2: try and resurrect what small population of Great whites still exist. 184 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 2: And then, in the case of the natal sharksports you know, 185 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 2: it's an organization that perpetuate itself, that perpetuates itself based 186 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 2: on incitement of fear. There is actually a very good 187 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:02,319 Speaker 2: alternative that was developed by a South African shark researcher 188 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 2: by the name of doctor Sarah Andreotti, and she has 189 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 2: been trying to get into or trying to get the 190 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 2: Natal Sharks Board to look at installing her Shark Safe Barrier, 191 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 2: which is a non lethal means, and they don't want 192 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 2: to enter into that discussion. You know, the Sharks Board 193 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 2: gets around about one hundred and twenty five million round 194 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:24,319 Speaker 2: a year, and you know, I'm not sure that they 195 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 2: want to do away with those mets. So yeah, I 196 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,199 Speaker 2: think people do need to sit around the table. We 197 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 2: need to look to put political differences aside, and we 198 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 2: need to start doing what's best for our marine ecosystems 199 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:38,559 Speaker 2: along our magnificent coastline. 200 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: Chris Fellows, conservationist and wildlife photographer. Given what Chris had 201 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 1: to say about the Natal Sharks Board, we will offer 202 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: them an opportunity to reply and give us their point 203 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 1: of view in the program tomorrow afternoon.