1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,560 Speaker 1: And we're talking about transport and having to work from 2 00:00:02,560 --> 00:00:05,720 Speaker 1: home and all the rest money. We're reporting this morning 3 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: that the agency that manages our national road Sanrall, they 4 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:12,640 Speaker 1: want to change current regulations about the services that can 5 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: be provided along them. So, as I understand it, they're 6 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 1: able to control currently what the road is used for. 7 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: So basically it's a road, okay. Now they seem to 8 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: be asking to be allowed to regulate what kind of 9 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: business could be established along the road. And other words, 10 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:33,840 Speaker 1: just as an example, they could say that, in fact 11 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:38,320 Speaker 1: they will provide electric car charging points. They would also 12 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 1: have the legal power to sort of license people who 13 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:44,559 Speaker 1: are doing the same thing. So imagine if you like, 14 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: And this is sort of quite a strange thought, a 15 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 1: government agency selling fuel while in competition with some of 16 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: the bigger brands on land that the government agency has 17 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,279 Speaker 1: some legal control over. Well. One company that is in 18 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: fact building a network of charging stations across the country, 19 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:05,320 Speaker 1: in particularly for long distance transport is the company zero 20 00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 1: is the company charged. The co founder and share a 21 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 1: charge Isbert Ruejaber. Good evening, what's your understanding of what 22 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: Central is actually trying to do here? 23 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 2: Good evening, Stephen and good evening to your listeners, Stephen 24 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 2: Sunral has gotten absolute monopoly over the control and full 25 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 2: of access to the national roads with very good reason though, 26 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:38,399 Speaker 2: with road safety reasons and safety reasons, and but the 27 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:43,559 Speaker 2: problem is they now want to almost weaponize. 28 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: Or Gabert, we seem to be losing you on that 29 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 1: zoom link. I'm not sure if you may be cut 30 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: the video feed, things would improve on the audio feed 31 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: often does happen, and try and just strengthen that this 32 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 1: is we see it as quite an important conversation. So 33 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: we do want to hear from Jabert ru on this 34 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:08,920 Speaker 1: issue if we can, and try and just understand exactly 35 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:10,839 Speaker 1: what the issue is. Also, of course get a better 36 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 1: understanding of what Sonral is trying to do on this issue. Jabert, 37 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 1: I think you're back with us. Now, let me look 38 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: at it in this way. I mean, what legal power 39 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 1: does Cenraal have at the moment, and then how do 40 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: they want to change that they we'll have to abandon 41 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: the zoom conversation, I'm afraid, Jabert. I'm going to ask 42 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: you to pick up your phone if you can, and 43 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 1: see if we're able to just continue with the conversation 44 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:46,239 Speaker 1: in that way. I think the problem might actually be 45 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 1: on our side. Embarrassingly, just let you know that we 46 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: did try and we did put in a bid to Sandral. 47 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 1: This was their reply to our requests for an interview. 48 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 1: Soanral recently underwent nationwide on the rest and service facilities policy. 49 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:05,639 Speaker 1: We await a final report on the road and waiting 50 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:07,800 Speaker 1: for a legal opinion on the matter. You haven't quired 51 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 1: until that time. Central is unfortunately not able to take 52 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: interviews currently. So they can do a road over, they 53 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: can't talk to us. Well, that's what we got from them, 54 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: Jabe Ruin pleased to tell you it's back with us now, 55 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 1: all right, Jabet, Let's start again, shall we. So Central 56 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: has some legal power at the moment. What do you 57 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: believe they're now trying to do? 58 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 3: Well, Stephen, Sunral, with very good reason, have got control 59 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 3: over access to their roads and certainly control over the 60 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 3: construction and the management and the safety on their roads. 61 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 3: But they've got a policy facilities right card that actually 62 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 3: said this is a line of Sunral's theme of generating 63 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 3: its own revenue, sweating its assets and ensuring commercial terms 64 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 3: of fair and market related. Now sweating their assets means 65 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 3: sweating you mean single other road user. So what someone 66 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 3: is trying to do now, and these these sort of 67 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 3: rates they want to impose is between five and seven 68 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:16,799 Speaker 3: percent on all services and between two and three percent 69 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 3: on all energy sold on those sites. So there's are 70 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 3: combined up to ten percent levy that they want to 71 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 3: impose on all businesses within their sixty meter road reserve 72 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:34,280 Speaker 3: or within five hundred meters of an interchange. But you know, 73 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 3: the frightening thing is that doesn't only apply to the 74 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 3: fifteen national roads that we normally count as national roads, 75 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 3: those in the end in front of them, but they 76 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 3: are also one hundred and twenty one section of provincial roads, 77 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 3: one metropolitan routes, and three district routes. And the only 78 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 3: reason this is now subject to public participation is because 79 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 3: they try to sleep the almost into the back doors 80 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,919 Speaker 3: just a policy announcement, and that was taken to the 81 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:11,279 Speaker 3: Supreme Court for review and Sanra lost and the court 82 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 3: forced them to go through public participation, and that's the 83 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 3: only reason why we've got a look in in this. 84 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 3: And what's even more frightening, they don't grant that access 85 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 3: permanently anymore, so they can review that every ten years 86 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:32,240 Speaker 3: and the rates and facilities they can review unilatter release. 87 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:36,839 Speaker 3: So that's like giving your local government the right to 88 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 3: just impose taxes and change taxes, and they can negotiate 89 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 3: your tax reviewing my tax was meaning. So it's an 90 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:52,279 Speaker 3: absolute abuse of that monopoly power that they've got over 91 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 3: the national roads. And I think it's a complete overreach. 92 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: Okay, I just want to understand something. So you made 93 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: a point within five hundred meters of of the road. 94 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 1: So say, for example, I owned a patch of land 95 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: that was three hundred meters away from a national road 96 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: and I decided I was going to start a petrol 97 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: station or host one of your charging stations there. They 98 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: would actually be able to say you can't do that, 99 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: even though I would be four hundred and fifty meters 100 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 1: away from the road. I mean, that would be insane. 101 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: No one else could stop me doing that. 102 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 3: Stephen, That's that's the sort of overreach that we're looking at. 103 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:32,679 Speaker 3: You know, there's a under this Plumer Act, there's the 104 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 3: local authorities are the custodians of land use. Then there's 105 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 3: the environmental authorities that I've got complete control and runs 106 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 3: a very good and transparent environmental process. And then there's 107 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 3: funuel that only how to they just a commenting authority, 108 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 3: just a commenting authority to give you access even outside 109 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 3: the road reserve, and then they insist you know, those 110 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 3: applications now take those requests for comments from local authorities 111 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 3: take longer than thousand days to process. So they are 112 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 3: already abusing that commenting authority. So can you imagine what 113 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 3: happens if you now have to as part of your 114 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 3: comments you have. They can insist on a tariff, but 115 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 3: it's not predetermined, and in ten years time they can 116 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 3: come back to you. You've now spent fifteen million, one 117 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 3: hundred million developing your resting service facility a hotel, and 118 00:07:35,720 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 3: they can then say, okay, now we have to renegotiate 119 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 3: your rates, completely exposed because it's a it's an arbitrary 120 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 3: and not a transparent process. Completely Yeah. So it's anti 121 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 3: developmental and an anti entrepreneurial exercise. And it's simply like 122 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 3: they said, sweating their assets. But fortunately it's the road 123 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 3: users in South Africa. It's going to be sweated, not 124 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 3: the road. 125 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: No sure, I mean the other thing I don't quite 126 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: understand is that if I if I had my piece 127 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: of land and I was selling Coca cola and pepsi, 128 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: they would only take money from me for the use 129 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: of the land. Are you suggesting that if I was 130 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 1: now selling energy so oil, so petrol, diesel, electricity, I 131 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 1: would actually have to pay more for my piece of 132 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: land next to the road. I mean that wouldn't make 133 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: that surely wouldn't stand legal scrutiny. It's none of their business. 134 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: What I sell. 135 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 3: This is this is that are you going to tax 136 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 3: you on on on turnover between five and seven percent 137 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 3: on the pepsi you sell, and between two and three 138 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 3: percent on all the energy use, whether it's fuel or 139 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 3: it's electricity or anything else. So any service somebody washes 140 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:55,360 Speaker 3: your car, Sanol is going to say, give me seven 141 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 3: percent of that underd round that you pay to have 142 00:08:57,640 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 3: your car work. 143 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 1: Obviously, as I said, Cenral have said they're not actually 144 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: responding to our request for an interview. They're waiting for 145 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: a legal opinion, et cetera. Jabert. While we have you, 146 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 1: we have been having lots of conversations about electric cars 147 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: at the moment we know we'll get higher fuel prices. 148 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: Are you seeing much demand from electric cars for your 149 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: service on national roads at the moment. It's a big 150 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: network that you're setting up. I know it does take time. 151 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 3: Absolutely, We've had office for a charging station and these 152 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,320 Speaker 3: are completely off grid, completely powered by renewable energy, up 153 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 3: and running now for fourteen months. That was a technical 154 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 3: proof of concept. We're now constructing two that will go 155 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:43,599 Speaker 3: live during May on the M three that'll unlock the 156 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 3: three for any EV driver the two hundred and two 157 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 3: hundred kilometers, so even a plug in hybrid con jump 158 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 3: loans and that's a true economic proof of concept. They 159 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 3: were completely viable before these petrol prices increases. And you know, 160 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 3: electric vehicles is simply a better tech and better tech 161 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 3: always wins out. And we've already seen an absolute explosion 162 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 3: that exponential growth in the sales of plugging hybrids and 163 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 3: plugging plugging hybrids is just a halfway stop to a 164 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 3: full EV and the only thing preventing a migration to 165 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 3: EV is now in South Africa is enough always on 166 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 3: reliable charging extensions. And the most amazing thing is we 167 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 3: can supply that demand with green energy and so so 168 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 3: double whammy. We buy independence and security against the sort 169 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 3: of vagrancies that we now see in the international hydrocarbon market. 170 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 3: And and you know that's Venezuela, then in the Middle East, 171 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 3: then the Russia. So that's an ongoing so we can 172 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 3: buy independence, localize that production, save on all the forests. 173 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 3: Plus they're now affordable evs in the market. You can 174 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 3: now buy yourself even for three hundred and fifty thousand rand. 175 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 3: And so we at that absolute topping point. And I 176 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 3: think I think, at the risk of sounding like an 177 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 3: ambulance chaser, you know, I think the Donald Trump and 178 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:41,680 Speaker 3: Iran fiasco is playing absolutely into driving that transition. 179 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:44,680 Speaker 1: Jaber up, thank you so much. The co founder and 180 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: chair of Charge. As I say, san Ral have not 181 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 1: given us anyone to interview.