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Speaker 1: Relationship issues relationship talk on seven two.

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Speaker 2: So on our relationship feature this morning, we are discussing

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Speaker 2: quiet quitting in relationships or marriages. If you've been following

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Speaker 2: this show for a while now, you'll know that the

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Speaker 2: term quite quitting has become widely discussed on our World

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Speaker 2: of Work feature, which describes the moment and employee stops

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Speaker 2: going above and beyond and simply just does the bare

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Speaker 2: minimum required just to remain employed. There's no resignation letter,

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Speaker 2: there's no con confrontation, just a quite withdrawal, a withdrawal

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Speaker 2: of effort, a withdrawal of of investment. No dramatic breakups,

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Speaker 2: no public fallouts, just a slow, silent drift that can

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Speaker 2: hollow your relationship from the inside. And it's more common

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Speaker 2: than any of us would care to admit, and the

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Speaker 2: consequences can rarely be damaging as any open conflict. But

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Speaker 2: what happens when that same pattern finds its way into

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Speaker 2: our most intimate relationships? Okay, what happens when a partner,

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Speaker 2: perhaps without even realizing it, begins to emotionally disengage from

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Speaker 2: a marriage or from a relationship while still remaining physically present.

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Speaker 2: And maybe this is something you have experienced yourself. Have

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Speaker 2: you ever reached that point where you are quietly checking

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Speaker 2: out of a relationship, you're quietly checking out of a marriage,

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Speaker 2: or perhaps you were on the receiving end. You've been

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Speaker 2: sensing that something has shifted in your partner long before

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Speaker 2: anything was ever said. I'd like you to share your

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Speaker 2: experience with us on one eight eight three oh seven

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Speaker 2: oh two. You can send your WhatsApps as well onh

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Speaker 2: seven two seven oh two one seven oh two. Le

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Speaker 2: Joy is a relationship coach who's going to guide us

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Speaker 2: through this conversation.

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Speaker 3: How are you doing? Joy, back to the show. Good morning,

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 4: I'm lovely to see you guys walk your talk with

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Speaker 4: your wellness day outside. Such a vibe and it's beautiful

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Speaker 4: to see how you're supporting your stuff.

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Speaker 3: If you're if you're hearing some.

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Speaker 2: Just know that there's a little party taking place outside

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Speaker 2: the studio. Here at our workplace, there's like a wellness studio,

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Speaker 2: I mean a wellness day. So a lot of companies

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Speaker 2: have come here and our employees in the building and

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Speaker 2: they're engaging with them. So this conversation is very importantly Joy,

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Speaker 2: I mean, we've heard the tim quiet quitting used a

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Speaker 2: lot in the workplace. We've spoken a lot about it

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Speaker 2: on our World of Work feature, but now it's entering

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Speaker 2: the relationship space. Can you explain what it is all about?

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Speaker 4: So I'd like to read a letter that was written

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Speaker 4: by Tony let Mess if I can say his name

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Speaker 4: propably in his Asian. And he wrote a letter to

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Speaker 4: the Global English Publication. And I think that he describes

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Speaker 4: quietly quitting in such a profound way. I might cry,

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Speaker 4: so please with me, But he says, I spent forty

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Speaker 4: years sleeping next to a woman who never loved me

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Speaker 4: the way I loved her. I knew it by year five,

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Speaker 4: accepted it by year ten, and somewhere around to year twenty,

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Speaker 4: I stopped waiting for it to change. She stayed anyway,

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Speaker 4: through the eighteen hour days when I was building the restaurant,

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Speaker 4: through the night I came home smelling like fish sauce

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Speaker 4: and fire oil, through all those school players I missed

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Speaker 4: because Saturday Night service didn't care that your kid is

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Speaker 4: playing a tree in a spring musical. You can tell

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Speaker 4: when someone loves you, when someone has decided to love you,

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Speaker 4: it's in the pause before they say it. Back the

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Speaker 4: way they turn their cheeks slightly when you go for

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Speaker 4: the lips. How they can plan a week of meals

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Speaker 4: but forget the anniversary until the calendar our minds them.

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Speaker 4: My daughter asked me once, why her my then I

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Speaker 4: never held hands. I told her some people show love differently,

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Speaker 4: which was true, and also the careful way you talk

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Speaker 4: around a bruise that never quite heals. The thing about

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Speaker 4: knowing the thing about knowing you're not truly loved, is

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Speaker 4: that it makes you work harder, not smarter, just harder.

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Speaker 4: Those early hours in Tampa, pulled doubles at the seafood place, thinking,

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Speaker 4: if I could just provide more, be more successful, maybe

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Speaker 4: I'll become worth loving. Classic immigrants logic mixed with classic

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Speaker 4: human stupidity. I nearly broke everything trying to earn what

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Speaker 4: was never for sale. But here's what she did do.

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Speaker 4: She made sure our sunded clean uniforms to school, even

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Speaker 4: when the washer broke and we couldn't afford repairs for

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Speaker 4: three weeks. She taught our daughter to speak Vietnamese when

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Speaker 4: I was too tired to remember my own language. She

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Speaker 4: kept the household running while I was keeping the restaurant alive.

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Speaker 4: She never forgot her birthday, not mine, not the kids,

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Speaker 4: not her sister's back. In their she remembered which teacher

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Speaker 4: preferred email over a phone calls, which neighbor was allergic

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Speaker 4: to peanuts, and which custom at the restaurant had lost

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Speaker 4: their spouse. She built a life that looked exactly like

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Speaker 4: love from the outside and maybe from the inside too,

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Speaker 4: if you didn't look too close. We got good at it.

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Speaker 4: The performance Sunday dinners with my brothers family, where we

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Speaker 4: sat at proper distances, close enough to look married, far

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Speaker 4: enough to avoid accidents of intimacy. Church functions, we she'd

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Speaker 4: reist her hand on my shoulder for exactly as long

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Speaker 4: as a photo takes. The kids never knew, or maybe

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Speaker 4: they did and chose not to know, the way kids

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Speaker 4: do when the alternative to not knowing is too complicated

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Speaker 4: to hold. I wrote about how marriage is maintained by

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Speaker 4: showing up, shutting up, and doing the dishes without being asked.

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Speaker 4: That's not true, but there's another truth underneath it. Sometimes

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Speaker 4: showing up is all you get. Sometimes the dishes are

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Speaker 4: done perfectly by someone who wishes they were in another

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Speaker 4: kitchen entirely. Why did she stay? I've had twenty years

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Speaker 4: to think about it. The practical answer is economics. When

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Speaker 4: we landed in Tampa, she spoke twelve words of English

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Speaker 4: and its skills that didn't translate. What was she going

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Speaker 4: to do? Leave with the title and start over again.

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Speaker 4: Starting over once nearly killed us both. But it wasn't

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Speaker 4: just money. It was a promise we made to each

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Speaker 4: other before we knew what promises cost. It was the

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Speaker 4: fact that she took vows seriously, even when the feelings

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Speaker 4: behind them had shifted into something more like business partnership.

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Speaker 4: It was probably also that she did care for me,

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Speaker 4: just not in a way that makes your heart race

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Speaker 4: or your hands reach out involuntarily. She cared for me

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Speaker 4: like you care for a reliable car. You maintain it,

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Speaker 4: you appreciate it, you might even be fond of it,

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Speaker 4: but you don't love it. Running a restaurant teaches you

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Speaker 4: that not every dish needs to be a masterpiece. Sometimes

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Speaker 4: good enough is good enough. Sometimes reliable beats remarkable. Sometimes

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Speaker 4: the customer just wants their photo and their spring rolls crispy,

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Speaker 4: sorry faux faux hot, And there's a dish and the

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Speaker 4: spring rolls crispy. They don't care if you put your

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Speaker 4: soul into it. Our marriage was like that, functional, reliable.

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Speaker 4: It fed our children and kept them war. It got

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Speaker 4: us from Vietnam to Tampa to retirement. It did exactly

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Speaker 4: what we promised each other it would do, minus the

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Speaker 4: one thing. I thought it was the whole point. But

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Speaker 4: maybe I had the whole point wrong. I'm sixty six now.

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Speaker 4: She left two years ago, not for another man, but

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Speaker 4: for a condo near her sister in California. We divided

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Speaker 4: everything fairly. She took the photos. I kept the restaurant

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Speaker 4: equipment I couldn't bear to sell. We text about the kids.

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Speaker 4: She sends me a recipes when she's tried. When she

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Speaker 4: tried something new last month, she reminded me about my

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Speaker 4: nephew's graduation. Still taking care of details that aren't her

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Speaker 4: responsibility anymore, I could be better to spend my morning

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Speaker 4: cycling the Pine Nails trail and cataloging all the ways

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Speaker 4: I was cheated. But when I rarely look at it,

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Speaker 4: what was I cheated of? I got a partner who

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Speaker 4: showed up every single day for forty years, who raised

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Speaker 4: good kids, who built a stable life in an unstable situation.

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Speaker 4: She gave me everything. She promised. It's not her fault.

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Speaker 4: I wanted something that wasn't on offer. So in conclusion,

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Speaker 4: so this is my letter to her, though she'll never

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Speaker 4: read it. Thank you for staying with Staying was hard.

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Speaker 4: This is where I'm going to cry. Thank you for

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Speaker 4: staying were staying was hard. Thank you for not pretending

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Speaker 4: to feel what you didn't feel. Thank you for the

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Speaker 4: thousands small kindnesses that weren't quite love but were maybe

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Speaker 4: something just as valuable. Thank you for teaching me that

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Speaker 4: sometimes good enough is actually good, That your liability has

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Speaker 4: its own grace, that two people can build something worthwhile

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Speaker 4: even when the foundation isn't what they thought it was.

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Speaker 4: I loved you completely. I loved you loved me, And

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Speaker 4: maybe that's its own kind of perfect imbalance. Like a

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Speaker 4: recipe with a fish sauce is stronger than the lion,

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Speaker 4: but somehow the store soup store works. We promise each

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Speaker 4: other in life and we delivered. That's more than most

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Speaker 4: people get, even as less than what I wanted. It's

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Speaker 4: more than enough to be grateful for.

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Speaker 3: Wow, what a letter?

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Speaker 4: Was it?

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Speaker 3: An open letter? Wow? Yeah? Hatfelt? How does it then?

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Speaker 3: Do you? Is this the woman then, who was quite

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Speaker 3: fitting in this context.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think this is a good description of what

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Speaker 4: quite quite equistic looks like. It's almost like it's duty.

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Speaker 4: It comes from a place of duty as opposed to

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Speaker 4: a place of love. But maybe it also if we

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Speaker 4: look at the Bible talks about I think five different

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Speaker 4: types of love, and you get eros which is more

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Speaker 4: the romantic passionate love, and then you get familiar love,

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Speaker 4: which is, you know, we like somebody. But I think

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Speaker 4: what he wanted was somebody that was in love with him.

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Speaker 4: I mean, to stay forty years, you've got she must

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Speaker 4: have loved him on some level. And there wasn't abuse

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Speaker 4: or anything. It doesn't sound like it was abusive relationship.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just yeah that that letter is so deep.

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Speaker 3: Please share it with us.

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Speaker 2: Some listeners are a team who says, Heigh, Clement, that

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Speaker 2: letter is so deep, I'm lost for words. Please can

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Speaker 2: you ask a lejoy to treat the letter or something?

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Speaker 3: Please?

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Speaker 2: Wow? So please if you can share it with us, Lee,

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Speaker 2: and we'll put it up on our socials. But oh,

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Speaker 2: it's it's really quite powerful. But I'm interested, and I'm

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Speaker 2: going to direct a little bit here. We'll come back

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Speaker 2: to quite quitting. But why do we have this obsession

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Speaker 2: as human beings with wanting to find people who love

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Speaker 2: us the same way we love them, because I think

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Speaker 2: that's what we do always. And I've never yet met

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Speaker 2: people who can prove he loves me at the very

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Speaker 2: same level that I love him or her. It's always

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Speaker 2: going to be. You can tell that this person probably

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Speaker 2: loves that person more. This person loves this person more.

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Speaker 2: But for some reason, there's an obsession with it has

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Speaker 2: to be at an equal level. If it's eighty from you,

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Speaker 2: it must be eighty from me. It can be seventy

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Speaker 2: nine or forty. And as that letter says, sometimes the

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Speaker 2: fish sauce is stronger, right, but the other element or

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Speaker 2: ingredient is much lower. But for some reason it produces

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Speaker 2: the final product that is incredible.

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Speaker 4: I think, you know, speaking to a client about it yesterday,

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Speaker 4: and I asked him, is it possible this exact question

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Speaker 4: that he felt like he loves her more than she

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Speaker 4: loves him? And I said, is it possible that you

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Speaker 4: scared to get egg on your face? And he looked

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Speaker 4: at me and he smiled, and he's like, yeah, see,

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Speaker 4: I said, is it possible that you may feel humiliated

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Speaker 4: that she loves you less than your life of her

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Speaker 4: and it's like from a transactional place, yeah, it doesn't

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Speaker 4: feel like you're getting out what you're putting in. And

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Speaker 4: he said, yes, absolutely, And I wonder and what came

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Speaker 4: to me, Clement, was I think that love is a calling.

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Speaker 4: We get called to love somebody, yes, and when we

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Speaker 4: are looking to the other for affirmation of that calling,

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Speaker 4: we missed the point. And when we connect to higher

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Speaker 4: power God, that is called us to love that person,

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Speaker 4: and we are in communion with that higher power or God,

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Speaker 4: we're able to show up like we meant to show

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Speaker 4: up in that relationship.

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Speaker 2: That's it, and that has no bearing on how the

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Speaker 2: next person. And look, this was of course, we're not

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Speaker 2: trying to say here that when you are in an

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Speaker 2: abusive relationship or someone is treating you in such a

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Speaker 2: toxic way, just because you are called to love them,

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Speaker 2: must just stick around. But there are many instances where

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Speaker 2: your partner shows up in their own way, you show

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Speaker 2: up in your own way, but for some reason, you

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Speaker 2: want them to love you the same way, and you

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Speaker 2: want the love to be at the same level. I

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Speaker 2: think it's such a deep conversation that we need to

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Speaker 2: have even with ourselves as individuals.

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Speaker 3: But back to quiet quitting.

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Speaker 2: Is this something that a lot of people do in

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Speaker 2: relationships and what normally is the cause of that.

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Speaker 4: I think, you know, I've really sat and meditated about

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Speaker 4: this and prayed about it. Is that the there's like

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Speaker 4: ebs and flows within a relationship. Right. Let's use when

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Speaker 4: people have babies for the first time, or even the

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Speaker 4: second or third time, they I think to some degree,

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Speaker 4: the men that I've spoken to have had to kind

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Speaker 4: of quietly quit on their eye lives in the sense

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Speaker 4: of expecting their wives to be wives when they're so

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Speaker 4: deeply entrenched and overwhelmed by the process of being a mother, right,

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Speaker 4: especially with breast feeding, late nights and that kind of thing.

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Speaker 4: So I think quietly quitting often starts there for the masculine,

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Speaker 4: for for for men, and I think women to be honestly,

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Speaker 4: I speak for myself as well. I had personal depression,

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Speaker 4: but I'm sure women that haven't had personaltal depression will

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Speaker 4: expect will say the same thing. Is they if I

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Speaker 4: had to quietly quit on themselves in those those early

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Speaker 4: years of child's rearing because it was so overwhelming man

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Speaker 4: tenant like just having to put your whole being aside

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Speaker 4: to raise this child. And obviously you know the talks

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Speaker 4: you and I've had the talks that you guys hold

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Speaker 4: on other state, other segments of other shows around families

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Speaker 4: and self care, and you know, having those robust, important conversations.

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Speaker 4: But I think quietly quitting first starts with the individual.

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Speaker 4: It quietly quits on an idea that you had around relationships.

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Speaker 4: And maybe to some degree that's healthy because maybe we

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Speaker 4: have like a romanticized idea of how things should be,

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Speaker 4: and actually the reality of things, if we look at

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Speaker 4: it and become grateful for what that is, is a

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Speaker 4: beautiful thing. So quietly quitting on the you know, on

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Speaker 4: the on the fairy tale, isn't necessarily a bad thing.

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Speaker 4: It actually frees us up to be able to be

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Speaker 4: grateful for what we are experiencing. But I think we're

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Speaker 4: talking here more about a sinister thing of quietly quitting

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Speaker 4: on our dreams and our hopes for a relationship that

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Speaker 4: isn't quite the way that we hoped it would be,

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Speaker 4: and that quietly quitting means giving up that hope and

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Speaker 4: settling I guess for what is. But Kevin, I don't

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Speaker 4: know if any of us can really say, you know,

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Speaker 4: I went into a relationship with this idea of how

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Speaker 4: it should look, and what actually transpired through that relationship.

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Speaker 4: I'm surprised that there were times that I managed to

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Speaker 4: actually stay in that relationship for the difficult times. Oh wow,

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Speaker 4: that relationship at times was actually more beautiful than I

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Speaker 4: ever anticipated it to be. Yeah, maybe quietly quittin could

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Speaker 4: be a positive thing in that where suspend our expectations

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Speaker 4: and our ideas of how things should be and show

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Speaker 4: up with presents for what is and being grateful for

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Speaker 4: what is. And then yeah, but this letter is heartbreaking

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Speaker 4: that I mean here Tony talks about not being passionately loved.

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Speaker 4: That's what at the gist of his letter. I think

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Speaker 4: he was loved, but I don't think he was passionately.

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Speaker 2: Well then that's of course how he determines what passionately

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Speaker 2: loving is. Maybe to that woman who's been with him

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Speaker 2: for forty years, passionately loving was showing up, teaching the

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Speaker 2: kids Vietnamese, reminding him of the important bedthdays, making sure

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Speaker 2: that the household is intact, and maybe to her that

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Speaker 2: was passionately loving. But to him, maybe passionately loving was

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Speaker 2: waking up every morning and saying I love you every

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Speaker 2: one hour, making sure I am taking care of the family.

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Speaker 2: But for some reason, we're obsessed with wanting equality on

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Speaker 2: that level, and I wonder if it's even possible to

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Speaker 2: attain that. We're going to take the late a quick

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Speaker 2: at break, not high witness news just yet, but a

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Speaker 2: quick at break when we come back. I'd like us

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Speaker 2: to broaden this conversation and bring in our listeners. Have

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Speaker 2: you been in that situation where you have just you

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Speaker 2: quite quit your relationship, your marriage, and for whatever reason,

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Speaker 2: maybe your partner has been doing the same thing that's

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Speaker 2: been irritating you and it's never changed, and you've just

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Speaker 2: decided I'm not actually not gonna raise it anymore. I'm

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Speaker 2: just gonna be here, be with take care of the kids,

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Speaker 2: and follow through my responsibilities. Or maybe for you, quite

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Speaker 2: quitting took a different form and was influenced by something different.

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Speaker 2: Share your stories with us on one, one, eight, three or

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Speaker 2: seven or two, or maybe you've got a question for

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Speaker 2: Lee Joy send a what'sapp as well on seventwo seven

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Speaker 2: or two, one, seven or two. It's twenty six after

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Speaker 2: eleven Relationship issues, relationship talk.

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Speaker 1: On seven oh two.

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Speaker 3: It's eleven thirty two.

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Speaker 2: We continue with our relationship feature this morning, discussing quiet

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Speaker 2: quitting in relationships. Many times when we have such conversations,

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Speaker 2: so there's some of you who have not even been

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Speaker 2: intimate with your partners for many years, and you've just

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Speaker 2: been wondering what's going on?

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Speaker 3: Could it be that they have actually quite.

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Speaker 2: Quit the marriage or that will relationship, and they've decided

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Speaker 2: to show up in this way and stay for whatever reason,

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Speaker 2: whether it's for the kids, or for the commitment they've

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Speaker 2: made to you, or because they really are wanting to

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Speaker 2: be part of this younon, even though there are things

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Speaker 2: that may not be they may not be happy about.

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Speaker 2: Have you been in that situation? How have you managed it?

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Speaker 2: You can give us a call or send us a

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Speaker 2: what's ap voice note? Anonymus have sent us a message

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Speaker 2: here and he says, a good day, Clement. There's quiet

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Speaker 2: quitting in relationships is actually real.

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Speaker 3: With me.

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Speaker 2: My wife stopped touching me some years ago, and the

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Speaker 2: red flags were there. But when you are in love,

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Speaker 2: sometimes you deny that it's happening to you. It was

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Speaker 2: excuse after excuse, no sex because I'm sick no sex

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Speaker 2: because it's that time of the year or the month.

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Speaker 2: When I touch her, she will tell me that I'm

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Speaker 2: putting pressure on her. Now it's been I'm experiencing menopause,

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Speaker 2: so I'm doing a favor. I'm doing you a favor

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Speaker 2: when we indulge. Guess what happens. It has been happening

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Speaker 2: for so long. I grew a thick skin. I am

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Speaker 2: just quiet now. One time she told me that she

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Speaker 2: was there for the kids. She agreed we call the

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Speaker 2: uncle because I was ready to release her when they

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Speaker 2: When they came, she changed the story and said she

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Speaker 2: was joking. She wanted attention from me, but she was

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Speaker 2: never she's never said sorry for that. I love her,

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Speaker 2: but I'm not sure why I'm still stuck with her.

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Speaker 2: That's a that's a message from anonymous. And I don't

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Speaker 2: know who's quite quitting between them, because the wife has

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Speaker 2: stopped touching him, doesn't want to be intimate with him,

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Speaker 2: and comes with excuses after excuses. But in turn, he's

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Speaker 2: decided to just be quite a about it. It doesn't

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Speaker 2: make any attempts anymore, and he's just quiet, and he's like,

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Speaker 2: I love I love I love her, but I'm just

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Speaker 2: stuck with her and I'll just keep it moving.

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Speaker 4: They are very painful, I think for both parties, and

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Speaker 4: there's often you know, women, there is reasons why women

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Speaker 4: step away sexually within a relationship that that I deal

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Speaker 4: with on a daily basis, you know, with where the

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Speaker 4: couples that I work with and in some circumstances we

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Speaker 4: have been able to reinitiate intimacy and in some situations not.

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Speaker 4: But it is a very big telling sign within a

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Speaker 4: relationship with the intimacy, the sexual intimacy force aside, but

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Speaker 4: it's often the emotional intimacy that that forced to the

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Speaker 4: wayside first before sexual intimacy force society forced to the side.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, I think there's there's a word that they're

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Speaker 4: using lately called polarity, So that the polarity meaning there's

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Speaker 4: not pressure, but there's energy within a relationship that if

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Speaker 4: you imagine there's an elastic band between tied around each

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Speaker 4: other's waist, like the one moves and the other kind

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Speaker 4: of moves in harmony, that kind of dance together, and

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Speaker 4: when that polarity falls apart, that energy or that dance

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Speaker 4: kind of falls apart as well. And it's not to

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Speaker 4: say that it will stay that way. It's just when

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Speaker 4: we become aware of that energy that's collapsed between the couple.

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Speaker 4: And often people come and see me and we work

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Speaker 4: through that and we and they're going to have really

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Speaker 4: beautiful relationships. That's the beauty of therapy, you know. So yeah,

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Speaker 4: please phone people. Let me give my number quickies oh

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Speaker 4: seven nine five to five eight double nine one O

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Speaker 4: seven nine five to two five eight double nine to one.

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Speaker 4: And my website is lead joy do So, yeah, we

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Speaker 4: don't need to quietly quit. We don't have to quite

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Speaker 4: quit in our dreams. We don't have to quiet equit

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Speaker 4: other relationships, and we don't have to quite equip in

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Speaker 4: our jobs. We've been given an opportunity to you know,

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Speaker 4: I'll share, you can may I share personally? In my

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Speaker 4: second marriage, I had quiet liquids and it was on

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Speaker 4: my birthday I forget which year, and I stidn't looked

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Speaker 4: at myself in the mirror, and I felt myself saying

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Speaker 4: to myself in the mirror or what are you doing?

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Speaker 4: Like who are you feeling? And I was like, I'm fine,

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Speaker 4: I can do this. You know, We've got a beautiful

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Speaker 4: child and we you know, that's the most important thing

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Speaker 4: is that we're parents. And I felt this part of me.

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Speaker 4: You speak back to me and say, but is that

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Speaker 4: the kind of life that you want? Is that what

401
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:45,240
Speaker 4: you want to show your daughter that it's really just

402
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 4: about parents raising children, that's what your whole life becomes about.

403
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,119
Speaker 4: And I was like no, it's like, well, then you're

404
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 4: going to make some tough choices. And we chose to

405
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Speaker 4: separate and get divorced because we had both quiet liquids

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Speaker 4: and my ex husband and also quiet liquid. So I'm

407
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Speaker 4: not saying people mist get divorced. I'm just saying that

408
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Speaker 4: I've been through that experience of living in a quietly

409
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Speaker 4: quitted relationship and it's not. It's not great. It's not

410
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:17,400
Speaker 4: it's not it's not it's not fulfilling, even though parenting

411
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 4: can be very feeling. I don't suggest it. I don't

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Speaker 4: suggest that people do it. I don't again suggest that

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Speaker 4: people get divorced. I suggest people go for therapy and try.

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Speaker 2: And figure it out. And it is what's a voice

415
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Speaker 2: note that's come on? Oh seven to seven O two

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Speaker 2: and seven O two he clement.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this letter, it reminds me of my own life. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I h the matter of my children.

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Speaker 5: Every time we my life was on and down, and

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Speaker 5: she would live me and I think this is about

421
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Speaker 5: three times.

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Speaker 3: And then when she lived and I would run after her.

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Speaker 3: And then when she.

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Speaker 5: Left me the third time and taking my children with her,

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Speaker 5: he decided, this is it.

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Speaker 3: Obviously I'm not with somebody who doesn't love me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: She always complained about, you know, being loved to the

429
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Speaker 5: way she preferred themself and stuff like that. So I

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Speaker 5: wouldn't mind because for me, I think marriage was for

431
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Speaker 5: love for the for two people, you know, and but

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Speaker 5: now you know, when you're with someone it's not possible

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Speaker 5: for you to really be rational about thinking about the

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Speaker 5: wrongs and the rights. But when I look at it,

435
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 5: I'm like, no, I think this was for the better.

436
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 5: This was for the better. Act she left me thank you?

437
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 3: Yeah?

438
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 2: I mean, how how do you claim how can you

439
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:58,880
Speaker 2: claim you truly love someone if every time they are

440
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 2: in their down side and they experienced something, or they

441
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 2: lose a job, or they are not okay, and then

442
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 2: you leave three times, how do you then come back

443
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 2: and claim I was reelly in love with you, and

444
00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 2: yet I always run away when you were not okay

445
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:17,600
Speaker 2: More of your what's ups and courts after the break,

446
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 2: it's twenty minutes before to.

447
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 1: Offer relationship issues Relationship Talk on seven.

448
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:27,880
Speaker 2: Two minutes before twelve o'clock. We're talking about quiet quitting

449
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 2: in relationships and marriages. I know we often talk about

450
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 2: and use this term when we're talking about the world

451
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:39,199
Speaker 2: of work, but it also happens in marriages and in relationships.

452
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:43,200
Speaker 3: There are partners that have quietly quit.

453
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 2: They are no longer showing much interest, there's no interest

454
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 2: even be intimate.

455
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,640
Speaker 3: They just are there, but they're not there.

456
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 2: And we're talking about what are some of the ways

457
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 2: or the reasons that influence people to be there even

458
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 2: when they're no longer invested in that marriage or in

459
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 2: that relationship. Lee Joy is our relationship coach, getting us

460
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 2: to do this conversation. Lee, in your experience working with couples,

461
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 2: what are some of the most common reasons people choose

462
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,360
Speaker 2: to withdraw emotional instead of actually addressing the issues head

463
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 2: on or just ending the relationship.

464
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 3: Then if they're not happy, what makes them stay?

465
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:30,640
Speaker 4: I think there are a number of factors that make

466
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 4: people stay. If we look at like the key aspects

467
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 4: of quite quitting in a relationship, is like emotional detachment.

468
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 4: So I've seen where people have tried to share what's

469
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:50,439
Speaker 4: going on for them and what they'd like to have

470
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 4: changed in the relationship, and the partner doesn't seem to

471
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 4: see it or get it or understand it. So sometimes

472
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 4: our clients before they come for therapy, they were quietly

473
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 4: quick because they feel like they're not being heard and

474
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 4: they're not be understood, and they're not they're not feeling seen.

475
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 4: So that's often one of the reasons why people quietly quick.

476
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 4: And then it's at that whole like bare minimum approach, right,

477
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 4: so like you give so like it's like ghosting, but

478
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 4: you're still there.

479
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, you just giveum minimum.

480
00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 4: Then there's also like the science of dysfunction within a relationship,

481
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 4: often there's there's the reasons for disengagement is so there

482
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 4: might be economic like the letter that we read there,

483
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 4: it was very much an economic reason for why he stayed,

484
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 4: at least why she stayed HM.

485
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 2: So, so some people would stay because I mean, what

486
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 2: am I going to do after this?

487
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 3: You are responsible for.

488
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 2: My upkeep, my well being with the kids if I

489
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 2: live here. That means I have to start from scratch.

490
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 2: And they make those considerations and just decide to stay.

491
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 2: But you are still miserable and you're unhappy for the

492
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 2: partner who's on the receiving end. I mean, this can

493
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 2: be incredibly confusing and painful. How do you then advise

494
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 2: they deal with it? So for a listener, maybe someone

495
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 2: listening to us now and says, you know, I've actually

496
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 2: picked up that my partner, my spouse, has been not interested,

497
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 2: has been giving the bare minimum in this marriage or relationship.

498
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 2: They're not invested in any way. You can tell they're

499
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 2: not here, but they're here. How do they deal with that?

500
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 4: I think that it's important to get honest with oneself,

501
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 4: and they're very welcome to come and see me, and

502
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 4: we can just unpack where they're at and to see

503
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 4: how realistic are their requirements within a relationship, to you know,

504
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 4: to right size those expectations within the relationship and for

505
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 4: their own lives. I think it's it can be such

506
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 4: a sad and lonely place to find oneself in. And

507
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 4: again I don't think like this Chap wrote here about

508
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 4: how his wife like quietly quits him, but I think

509
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 4: in some degrees he quietly quit her too, you know,

510
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 4: but by choosing to be in the restaurant industry because

511
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 4: that took him so far away from their relationship for

512
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 4: so many years. We can there's so many reasons why

513
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 4: he chose that. You know, he's Vietnamese, he's in America,

514
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 4: he's trying to find his feet is the thing that

515
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 4: he's really good at. But those choices come come with consequences.

516
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 4: So I think it's less about who's quietly quitting who,

517
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 4: and more so about what kind of relationship do we

518
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 4: want to build?

519
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Okay, it's twelve minutes now before twelve otlock.

520
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 2: When we come back, I've got a number of messages

521
00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 2: that have come through from our listeners.

522
00:30:58,720 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 3: We'll start with them.

523
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 1: Relationship issues, relationship talk on.

524
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 2: Seven o two, nine minutes before twelve o'clock. All right,

525
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 2: So there's some messages that have come through here Lee

526
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 2: that I want to just go through on the WhatsApp line.

527
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 2: Let's start with this one. Good morning, Clement. That letter

528
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 2: was gut wrenching. The lesson for me is that we

529
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 2: actually need to think more deeply when we get into

530
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 2: relationships about what a good match is. We often marry

531
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 2: and settle for the wrong reasons and stop thinking about

532
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 2: who we are and what we really desire in our partners.

533
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 2: I was married for ten years. It wasn't a deep desire,

534
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 2: but I was in my thirties, had a good man,

535
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 2: was good at home. We could build a very stable,

536
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 2: respectable life together. We settled into stability. The sex was dull, routine,

537
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 2: There was just obligations. Thankfully, we got divorced and we

538
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 2: remain friends. It was after my divorce that I got

539
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 2: involved with someone who matches my energy, my passion. We

540
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 2: love each other hard. We cherish our time together. We

541
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 2: love being happy and fulfilled. Now that there is no

542
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 2: pressure and obligation, we can focus on what is really

543
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:26,560
Speaker 2: important to us in a suitable partner, and we feel

544
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 2: all each other's spaces perfectly. We can have relationships with

545
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 2: people who are right for us. We shouldn't settle for

546
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 2: deprivation and deceived. That's the message from Louise Incentin. Another

547
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,880
Speaker 2: one says Clem and please, can you get Lee Joy

548
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 2: to explain the difference between quite quitting and silence divorce.

549
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 2: That's a question from Max. Is that the same thing

550
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:56,239
Speaker 2: because you haven't really filed for divorce, but it really is?

551
00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 2: Or is that what they call then separation. But then

552
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 2: that's not silent because you've spoken about it. Because they

553
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 2: are partners who decide, couples who decide. We're separated, but

554
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 2: we're not divorced yet. Maybe that's a time for them

555
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 2: to figure out if what they want is divorce.

556
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 4: Silent divorce I think is quite quitting. I agree with you.

557
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 2: Another person says heightlement. This topic is so profound. I

558
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 2: will be married for forty years at the end of

559
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 2: the year. It seems as if I have written that letter.

560
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 2: I have never cheated, will never cheat. Has been accused

561
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 2: of it before. I'm a Christian, and part of the

562
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 2: reason for staying in my belief that I've entered into

563
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 2: a covenant with God. I'm now suffering with irrectile dysfunction.

564
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 2: We've been for counseling, and my wife uses this as

565
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 2: an excuse. She constantly says, I've gone for counseling and

566
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 2: worked through my issues. You need to look at the

567
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 2: men in the mirror. I've quit, and in fact, I

568
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 2: think both of us have done it in our own way. Jeez,

569
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 2: that's a message from anonymous.

570
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:08,719
Speaker 4: Forty years and I mean, how many of us are like, Oh,

571
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 4: I just want to be married for all my life,

572
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 4: and we look at relationships that have been together twenty

573
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 4: thirty forty years, and how many of them have been

574
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,840
Speaker 4: quite quitting. Just quickly before we go to the next

575
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 4: listener with regards to erics, i'll dysfunction. Please gon and

576
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 4: have a look at hormones and repose is a real

577
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:33,240
Speaker 4: thing which affect men in their fifties, and so please

578
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 4: go and have a look at your at your hormans

579
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 4: for that. I'm not a medical doctor, but I just

580
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 4: I am seeing men in their fifties that struggle with it.

581
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 2: And then another message anonymous is high Clement. I'm going

582
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,400
Speaker 2: through this and I was not aware it happens to

583
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:54,360
Speaker 2: other people. With me, my wife would talk bad, become

584
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 2: like irritated. But when I'm away she would be phoning

585
00:34:58,160 --> 00:34:59,280
Speaker 2: or texting often.

586
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 3: But way we're.

587
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 2: Together, it starts again. I ended up withdrawing. Often I

588
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 2: think of divorce, but a thought of I think of

589
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 2: my children and how they will not let me. Intimacy

590
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 2: is gone, but dip down I would like to love her.

591
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 3: Huh.

592
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 2: A lot of people are really going through this, Eh.

593
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 2: It's just feeling like they're very much invested. They want

594
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 2: to make it work, but there's no intimacy, and there's

595
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 2: there's sometimes irritation. Why do we not talk about these issues,

596
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 2: Lee Joy? Because sometimes I mean, yes, they're they're instances.

597
00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:42,799
Speaker 2: I mean the men who called us and said I

598
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 2: now suffer from erectal dysfunction. And we've been to Concerent.

599
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,719
Speaker 2: Some people have gone to therapy shore, but there are

600
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:50,920
Speaker 2: many people who are going through this. They can sense

601
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 2: that they're no longer interested here, but they're scared to

602
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 2: just sit and resolve or try attempt to go see

603
00:35:58,640 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 2: a therapist.

604
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 4: So what I've seen the most in my practice, Kevin,

605
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 4: is that people we none of us have been taught

606
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 4: how to communicate. And half of the journey of communication

607
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 4: is listening, and we're actually haven't been taught how to listen.

608
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 4: And when we listen often such triggering a situation information

609
00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:23,319
Speaker 4: that's being shared. It's really hard to listen to our

610
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 4: partners when there's so many emotions that are beating around

611
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:30,439
Speaker 4: inside of us. So one of the things I teach

612
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 4: my kids is how to listen first, how just to

613
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 4: listen to each other, not trying to change what the

614
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 4: other one is saying, not just to listen, just to

615
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 4: hear what the other person is saying. And it's had

616
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 4: such a profound work on the relationships that are and

617
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 4: the clinids that are willing to do it, because not

618
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 4: everybody's willing to do the work right, but people that

619
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 4: are really willing to hear the other person there's instead

620
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 4: of talking over them and trying to change what they

621
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 4: say and trying to get their point across. And so

622
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 4: I think the first step two, uh not prohibble to

623
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 4: stop quietly quitting from happening is actually by hearing each other.

624
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, hearing each other. Lejoy.

625
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 2: Thank you so much once again for making time for

626
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 2: us and then for guiding us to be such an

627
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 2: important conversation.

628
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:20,319
Speaker 4: I was so good to be with you.

629
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:21,879
Speaker 3: It's any minutes before talk