1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: The money showed consumer Ninja, Wendy, Nola's your consumer Ninja. 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: How's it, Wendy. I mean, I remember the story so well. 3 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:10,560 Speaker 1: It was in February, just after Valentine's Day. There was 4 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: the small florist from Durban North, there's sort of independent operator, 5 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:18,120 Speaker 1: and they went on TikTok and basically a customer had 6 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:22,279 Speaker 1: googled her business name. They're called Flowers on Kensington. Net 7 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:25,280 Speaker 1: Florist ended up with the deal simply because the customer 8 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: took the hit that was on top. She had so 9 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: many people talking about what happened. She put a lot 10 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:36,239 Speaker 1: of effort into Valentine's Day and all the rest. What 11 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 1: did net Florist say at the time, they were the 12 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: ones who benefited. 13 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:42,880 Speaker 2: They benefited from that order. 14 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 3: I mean there was at least one steven that we 15 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 3: know of, but potentially there were going to be many others. 16 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 2: And that's what prompted this florist owner to go. 17 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 3: She wasn't very big on TikTok at the time, and 18 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 3: she made this tearful video thinking she invested in all 19 00:00:57,800 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 3: these flowers from the market and she was now going 20 00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 3: to be losing her orders to net Florist and you know, 21 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 3: she got a huge a lot of sympathy. 22 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:09,039 Speaker 2: She got, you know, two hundred thousand views at the time. 23 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:13,680 Speaker 3: So and in the end she had a bump of Valentine, 24 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 3: which wasn't her intention, but that's what happened. And TikTok, 25 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, TikTok served up, on the other hand, 26 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:23,479 Speaker 3: a lot of hate to net Florist. So I happened 27 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,319 Speaker 3: to see this going down, and I got hold of 28 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 3: the m d Ryan Basher. 29 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 2: And I allerded to him to what was going on. 30 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:35,319 Speaker 3: And he said at the time that you know, all 31 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 3: he knew was that net Florist uses Google's AI algorithms 32 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 3: to decide keywords to bid on and design their campaigns around. 33 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 3: And he's stressed that it's not their practice to use 34 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 3: another company's brand name directly, and he undertook to investigate 35 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 3: what had happened with Google, and in the meantime, his 36 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 3: tech team used that Florist's name as negative keywords so 37 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 3: that they could never be attached in researchers that people 38 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 3: were making for that Flowers on Kennington business in particular. 39 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:09,239 Speaker 2: Okay, that's where we left this story last time. 40 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, so there would have been an investigation, and 41 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:15,399 Speaker 1: I presume Google had a technical explanation as well. 42 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, so that investigation, as a turnout, took two months, 43 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 3: and Ryan Basher got back to me earlier this week 44 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 3: to say that they'd finally got a response from Google 45 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 3: about how it was that that competitor's name featured in 46 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 3: the ads. He says, as you can see, we did 47 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 3: nothing wrong. What happened was the result of Google's technology 48 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 3: and Flowers On Kensington not having trademarked their brand. We 49 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 3: were vilified by the mob without any justification, and we 50 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 3: took a big internal morale and brand which shows you 51 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 3: the power of social media in itself that one TikTok video. 52 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:55,400 Speaker 3: But yeah, so there was quite a I think the 53 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 3: explanation is fairly technical, but if I can grasp, but 54 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 3: I'm pretty sure as people can. 55 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 2: It's about dynamic key word insertion, Stephen. It's called d 56 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 2: k R for short. 57 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 3: So the appearance of the local business name in Netflorist's 58 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 3: copy was a classic example of how this works. And 59 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 3: actually said Google, It's deed. It did what it was 60 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:20,919 Speaker 3: designed to do. So it's an advanced feature of Google 61 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 3: Ads that automatically updates and ads text to include one 62 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 3: of the advertiser's keywords if it matches a users specific 63 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 3: search terms. So I imagine the word flower flowers, that is, 64 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 3: that is how it happened. And so if a user 65 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 3: the florist's customer searches for a specific competitor or local brand, 66 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 3: algorithm determines it's highly relevant to the broad keywords that 67 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 3: that net florist was bidding on. And so it happened 68 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 3: that that chap looked for flowers on Kensington and suddenly 69 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 3: he was on Netflorist's start and he didn't realize it, 70 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 3: and he gave his business to netflorist instead of the 71 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 3: small local florist. 72 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 2: So so yeah, that's pretty much how it happened. 73 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 3: And the point of talking about the stories that it 74 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 3: can happen in many other cases as well because of 75 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 3: the way this algorithm works. 76 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: So a small business, I mean, it must feel like 77 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 1: you've been hijacked by a much bigger operator. How do 78 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: you protect yourself? 79 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 3: Okay, so this was one of the most interesting aspects 80 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 3: for me. According to Google, small business or businesses in general, 81 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 3: to protect their brand name from automatically appearing in another 82 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 3: advertisers and text. You've got to file a trademark complaint. 83 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 3: So if the business owner has a registered trademark for 84 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 3: their business name, which they absolutely should have, they can 85 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 3: submit an official complaint to Google and once that valid 86 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 3: trademark complaint is processed, Google should then actively or must 87 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:58,479 Speaker 3: and will actively restrict unauthorized advertisers from using that trademark 88 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 3: term in their add tech And this also includes an 89 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 3: automatic blocking of the term from populating that DKR that 90 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 3: dynamic keyword insertion. They have a link it's a very 91 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 3: too long to share on air, but we can use 92 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 3: it in our blog on the website from unplus website, 93 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 3: which allows a company then to go on and apply 94 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 3: and you apply, show their trademark and then avoid dis 95 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 3: ever happening to them. 96 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 2: And it instructs the algorithm. 97 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:35,239 Speaker 3: Completely ignored searchers containing that phrase, So that should solve 98 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 3: the problem. 99 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: Is there a legal framework for this sort of scenario, 100 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: I mean I can just imagine the arguments. 101 00:05:43,520 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 3: Yes, so it's quite as a ten year old legal 102 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 3: frameworkt in the form of a Supreme Court of Appeal 103 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 3: ruling Cochrane Steel Products versus m Systems Group. The court 104 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 3: ruled essentially that bedding on a competitors. Trademark or trade 105 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 3: name as keyword to trigger sponsored ads is not automatically unlawful, 106 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 3: they said. The judges said that Google's sponsored links are 107 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:15,239 Speaker 3: clearly marked as ads, and any reasonable, irreasonably observant users 108 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 3: shouldn't be confused into thinking the ad is from the 109 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 3: original business. Using arrivals unregistered mark isn't unlawful under common 110 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 3: law unless it leads to actual passing off, meaning real 111 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:30,600 Speaker 3: deception or confusion that misleads the public. And I think 112 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 3: it's safe to say that the law will need to 113 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 3: evolve to cater for what's going on with algorithms and 114 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 3: AI and all the rest, because it's a whole new world. 115 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 3: But essentially it's pretty hard to tackle this kind of 116 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 3: thing legally and win. 117 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:56,039 Speaker 2: I think it's the short answer to that. 118 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, as always the person with the most money. Okay, 119 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:05,239 Speaker 1: So if you're searching for a particular company's offerings, say, oh, 120 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: let's pect the smallest of small firms Stephen Crutiz stress making. 121 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 1: What would your advice for consumers looking for Stephen crutters 122 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: stress making be? 123 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 2: Okay? So to avoid ending up on what team move for. 124 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 3: Example, So you I mean this applies to all sorts 125 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 3: of other scenarios, frauds and other you know, we've got 126 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 3: all these owned websites and all the rest. So check 127 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 3: two things always before you hit pay, and that is 128 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 3: you want to look for the word sponsored or add 129 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 3: label at the top of the results. 130 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 2: It has to be. 131 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 3: There and all and most essentially always check the URL 132 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 3: so that's the website address. It might just be a 133 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 3: letter that's transposed or missing or completely different from if 134 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 3: it helps you know what the official website is that 135 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 3: you're looking for. 136 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 2: But in this case. 137 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 3: For example, if if someone's searched for Stephen Critch's dress 138 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,679 Speaker 3: making and the first result that came up, they thought, okay, great, 139 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 3: and I mean you would see at the top that 140 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 3: it wasn't your URL that you are on some other, 141 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 3: you know, huge apparel retailer for example, or someone that's 142 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 3: you know, trying to take your business by registering a 143 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 3: name that's ever so slightly different. So you need to 144 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 3: just check. I think that's the most important thing. So 145 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 3: many cases come by way where people have just clicked 146 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:34,080 Speaker 3: on the first result and not realized they're not where 147 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 3: they want to be. They're not giving business to the person. 148 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:37,440 Speaker 2: That they attended. 149 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 3: The other one is re searching for shows and sporting events, 150 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 3: et cetera. 151 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 2: You don't want to land on. 152 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 3: And I've lost the name of the of the what's 153 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 3: that site with all the consult tickets? 154 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 1: Well, I think I know which one you mean. 155 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I'm just my brain's just gone blank, but 156 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 2: you know what I mean. So that's a big one. 157 00:08:57,400 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 3: The first results you've got to really interrogate because it's 158 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 3: it's often not where you want to be, not the 159 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:06,440 Speaker 3: business that you intend to give your business to. 160 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 1: When do you know that you're consumer ninja? Thank you 161 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: so much, really to appreciate it.