1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: Join the conversation. Email John m at kapetalk dot co DOTZNA. 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:10,040 Speaker 1: We had an article on Daily Maverick yesterday and we 3 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:12,960 Speaker 1: try to have the conversation yesterday, but we're having it 4 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:21,640 Speaker 1: today about AI generated wildlife pictures, which I'm told are 5 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: becoming quite regularly shared across social media feeds. And you 6 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: know that'll be a lioness putting a cub beside a tourist, 7 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: or a diver swimming effortlessly amongst impossible marine life. They apparently, 8 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 1: and I've had a look at a couple of them. 9 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: They look credible, they look authentic, but they're not. They 10 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:50,519 Speaker 1: generated by AI. And it's perhaps tempting to say, yeah, 11 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: so it's cute. Of course it didn't happen, but so 12 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: it's cute. The article that I read suggested it's not cute. 13 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: It's actually something that we should be taking steps to 14 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:07,400 Speaker 1: prevent continuing happening. One of the authors, Danelle Vensel, a 15 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:12,119 Speaker 1: marine biologist and an underwater photographer, joins us. Now, Danell, 16 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: A very good afternoon, Thank you for your time. 17 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 2: Hello, John, thanks so much for having me. 18 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 1: Why is it I just hate anything that's false, So 19 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 1: for me, it's a problem simply through its falsity, But 20 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: what is the potential negative consequence on conservation, conservation efforts, 21 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: the way people think about conservation. 22 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:33,040 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, John, where do I start? I mean, 23 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 2: as you exactly said in your intro, it's like people 24 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 2: see this and they're like, Oh, it's cute, it's cute, 25 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 2: it's harmless, it's fun. But at the end of the 26 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 2: day for conservation, that won't always be the case. People 27 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 2: aren't as smart or like I said, common sense isn't 28 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 2: as commons used to be. So I've had so many 29 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 2: people like talk in chat and like they see all 30 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 2: these interactions happening, So people swimming with sharks, people like 31 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 2: feeding lions or having like little lion cubs run around 32 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 2: their bedrooms, and they're like, actually want those interactions. They say, 33 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,359 Speaker 2: listen is very cool. I want to pay I want 34 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 2: to touch sharks. I want to have lines running around 35 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:17,519 Speaker 2: my house. And obviously that supports a lot of unequal 36 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 2: tourism that goes around that. But also just like the 37 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:26,239 Speaker 2: kind of things that being shared, it's not realistic. It's 38 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 2: not real and it's becoming more and more difficult to distinguish. Okay, 39 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 2: what is actually out there, what natural beauty and what's 40 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:36,799 Speaker 2: ais generated. If that makes sense. 41 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: It does. And I think those of us who have 42 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:42,919 Speaker 1: spent a fair amount of time in the bush, whether 43 00:02:42,960 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: it's you know, in the Kruger National Park and a 44 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 1: self drive safari, whether we've gone to lodges where the 45 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: driving has been done by guides, we're all used to 46 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 1: signs of ignorant and dangerous behavior. Tourists getting out of 47 00:02:57,400 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: cars to get a bit of shot of the line 48 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: and that sort of thing, putting themselves and the animal 49 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: at risk through this. And I suspect that the widespread 50 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 1: sharing of these kinds of photographs will further encourage that 51 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:12,919 Speaker 1: make more people do it. Go Well, you know, I 52 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: saw that photograph of somebody standing next to a line. 53 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:17,080 Speaker 1: The line didn't need, so it's cool for me to 54 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: get out of the car and try and get a 55 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 1: shot from a better angle. 56 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. I mean, I am a big advocate for 57 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 2: sharks and diving with sharks in the water, and it's 58 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 2: one of my favorite things to do. They're one of 59 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 2: my favorite animals. They're strong, they're powerful, and they just misunderstood. 60 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 2: But I'm also professional. I've done this for many years. 61 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:45,119 Speaker 2: I'm trained, so whenever I do get myself in those situations, 62 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 2: I know what I'm doing and I have a crew 63 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 2: to back and support me. But so many people want 64 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 2: to do it just for a shot. They go untrained, 65 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:55,080 Speaker 2: they go they don't understand the shark behavior, and that's 66 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 2: where scenario start getting dangerous. But not only that, I 67 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 2: think they also the people are getting a false expectation 68 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 2: because now they've seen all this content out there that's 69 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 2: a I generated and they think, Okay, it's easy. It's 70 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 2: easy to go into the open and see a shark, 71 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 2: it's easy to go into the kruger and see a 72 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 2: lion kill. And if you've ever spent any time in 73 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 2: the bush like that's not the case. It's consistency. It's 74 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 2: time and time again of going spending time and nature, 75 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 2: risking not seeing every like anything for that one special 76 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 2: moment that you get. And that's where guides come in 77 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 2: that are trained, that nowhere to go, and that's where 78 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 2: the value of them come in as well. 79 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: So I'm somebody who's not a good photographer, so I've 80 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 1: given up on my digital SLR camera and now just 81 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: use my iPhone and I take what's in front of me. 82 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: But I do. I do know quite well some professional photographers, 83 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: and I'm incredible wildlife photographers that your bears, the Pickfords 84 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:01,799 Speaker 1: and so on, and I'm in incredibly admiring of their work. 85 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: And I know how much time and effort and patience 86 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 1: and instinct and experience it takes to get that magical shot. 87 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:15,880 Speaker 1: And if you can get that magical shot through an 88 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 1: AI program, I mean it devalues the work of these 89 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: incredibly skilled professionals. It's another aspect for me of this. 90 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:27,840 Speaker 2: I also heard little Birdie told me that you're also 91 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 2: quite a burden so love spending time in nature and 92 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 2: just trying to get those shots. And I can imagine 93 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 2: you know how hard it is, so like get that 94 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 2: perfect photo. The animals who don't stand still, that is 95 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:48,919 Speaker 2: follow scripts, they don't listen. You're still there, yes, sorry, 96 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:49,720 Speaker 2: did I get cut up? 97 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: You did for a little bit. Yeah, you said they 98 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: don't listen, and then you disappeared. 99 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 2: Oh yes, well animals, you can't have the perfectly posed pictures. 100 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 2: So for somebody who also spends a lot of time 101 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 2: in nature, I think you could understand just how how 102 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:10,280 Speaker 2: valuable it is like actually get that quality time on 103 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 2: the ground. And what's also happening is it's happened to me, 104 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 2: it's happened to some of my friends who are working 105 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 2: on a very high end like BBC Natio scale, where 106 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 2: sort of these shoots actually got canceled because they got told, oh, 107 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 2: we're just going to use AI to foll in the sequence. 108 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 2: Oh it's cheaper than buy a flight to Australia, so 109 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 2: we'll just generate with AI. So now people's work has 110 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 2: also been put on the line. 111 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: And one of the issues raised in the article that 112 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,159 Speaker 1: you co wrote is that there's a risk of weakening 113 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: public urgency to protect fragile environments. Make the link for 114 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 1: our listeners between these AI generated photographs and that concern. 115 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 2: Yes, so I think the like the major concern is 116 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:59,239 Speaker 2: when people see a lot of content just being thrown 117 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 2: their way, they become desensitized. They're seeing all these things 118 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 2: all the time, and they think it's completely normal that 119 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 2: lies interacting with humans, that there's these beautiful coral reefs 120 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 2: out there that aren't actually out there and they just 121 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 2: being painted this whole misconception. What is reality? What is 122 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 2: the state of our world's looking like? What is the 123 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 2: state of our ecosystem looking like and they don't know that, Yes, 124 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 2: behind all this AI, there's a world out there that's 125 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 2: being impacted, impacted by us, impacted by AI. I'm not 126 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 2: going to even goes down the rabbit hole to be 127 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 2: like how AI is a like impacting like everything else 128 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 2: but yet so well, then it's like they're not seeing 129 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 2: connected anymore because you can't see what's out there if 130 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 2: you're just return all these perfect moments all the time 131 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 2: and you're not seeing the actual real thing happening in 132 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 2: the water, in the ocean, the coral bleaching, then all 133 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 2: the natural burns happening, the bushfires. So I think that's 134 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 2: what happen income. 135 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: Went Danelle Densel, Thanks very much for talking to us 136 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: this afternoon. Marine biologist and underwater photographer. Ah, yeah, I know, 137 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 1: maybe you're somebody who does go a yeah, come on, 138 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: AI is part of our lives, and AI is going 139 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: to infect and infiltrate every part of our lives, and 140 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: let's not make too much of a fuss about it.