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Speaker 1: And now The Money Show with Stephen Kridis on seven

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Speaker 1: oh two.

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Speaker 2: Let's walk little for Money Show with Stephen Curtis is

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Speaker 2: brought to you by Abscess cib Discover the latest trends

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Speaker 2: shaping digital assets across Africa. Download the Africa Digital Assets

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Speaker 2: Insights twenty twenty five. Good evening, nine minutes after six times,

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Speaker 2: Stephen Curtis, Welcome to the program. Quite a busy day actually,

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Speaker 2: considering where we are in the year. Schools are shut already,

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Speaker 2: most of the courts that are closed as well, and

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Speaker 2: in fact, there's been quite a lot going on around

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Speaker 2: what's happening on the JC. SPA had their results, Nampack

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Speaker 2: had their results. We'll speak to the CEOs of both

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Speaker 2: those companies in a couple of moments. In fact, we'll

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Speaker 2: speak to Angelo Swartz, the CEO of SPA, in a moment.

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Speaker 2: Glenn Fullerton is the chief financial officer of Nampack. Excuse me,

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Speaker 2: we'll speak to him in about ten minutes as well.

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Speaker 2: Nampac really do seem to be on the road to recovery.

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Speaker 2: They really do seem to be getting themselves out of

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Speaker 2: the difficult space they were in and making quite a

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Speaker 2: lot of program a spar as well if you look

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Speaker 2: at the underlying numbers. Although always say this, to be

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Speaker 2: the CEO of a supermarket in South Africa, they have

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Speaker 2: to take on shop right head on. Not a job

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Speaker 2: I would like talking of jobs, I wouldn't like. I've

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Speaker 2: made the point a million times. I would not like

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Speaker 2: to be the CEO of Escum. Although it's getting a

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Speaker 2: little bit more attractive. I must just say they've reached

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Speaker 2: a memorandum of understanding today with people who run smelters,

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Speaker 2: the ferrochrome producers. Now we weren't able to get anyone

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Speaker 2: from ESKAM and not for want of trying on this item.

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Speaker 2: As just say, but we are looking forward to speaking

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Speaker 2: to the CEO of Glencore Alloys, Yuppie Fullard, and just

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Speaker 2: talking about it from their in. In the end, the

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Speaker 2: problem with the smelter issue is that you want smelters.

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Speaker 2: They create downstream industries. They employ people directly. But if

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Speaker 2: you look at the electricity that it takes to run

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Speaker 2: them and the pricing of it that electricity, there's just

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Speaker 2: no way it's going to happen without you and I

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Speaker 2: somehow subsidizing that electricity. That's just how it's going to

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Speaker 2: be we'll talk about the end of the jibar rate

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Speaker 2: as well and why it matters well. Speak to Deborah

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Speaker 2: Carmichael from NS about that. Looking forward to that conversation.

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Speaker 2: I saw today at the start of the National General

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Speaker 2: Council of the A n C that some of their

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Speaker 2: workers were outside complaining they hadn't been paid. This has

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Speaker 2: been such a big problem for the A and C

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Speaker 2: over the years. In any party political leader you speak to,

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Speaker 2: a political party leader you speak to will probably say

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Speaker 2: the same thing. In the end, the big headache is

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Speaker 2: funding getting money for whatever it is you want to do.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's probably true of the A n C,

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Speaker 2: the DA MK, the IFB, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera,

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Speaker 2: no matter where you stand, that's a major problem. But

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Speaker 2: one of the things the workers were complaining about was

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Speaker 2: that they hadn't been told they wouldn't get paid on time.

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Speaker 2: And I mean, I don't think it's really happened to me, seriously,

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Speaker 2: never from a main employer where I haven't been paid

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Speaker 2: on time. But what how do you Is there a

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Speaker 2: good way to say, Stephen, you're not going to get

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Speaker 2: paid on time? I mean, is there a good way

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Speaker 2: to do that. I don't know if you have some experience.

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Speaker 2: The best way you've been told you won't get your

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Speaker 2: money on time. And I think generally speaking, the moment

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Speaker 2: someone says you're not going to get paid on time,

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Speaker 2: you kind of want to pack your bags and go,

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Speaker 2: don't you if you can? So often you can't, but

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Speaker 2: I'll be very interested in your stories. The best way

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Speaker 2: to say I'm sorry, you're just not going to get

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Speaker 2: your money could be a contract, could be a deal

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Speaker 2: between businesses. You might be someone who lends out property

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Speaker 2: and someone who rents it from you. Told you that

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Speaker 2: best way to say you're not going to get your

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Speaker 2: money on time? Oh double one double a three oh

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Speaker 2: seven two two one four four six oh five six

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Speaker 2: seven and your voice notes please on seven two seven

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Speaker 2: oh two one seven oh two.

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Speaker 3: The Money Show with Stephen krudis live on ninety two

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Speaker 3: point seven and one six FM, streaming on the Prime

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Speaker 3: Media Plus.

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Speaker 1: NAP and DStv channel eight five six.

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Speaker 2: Well Spark confirming today their headline earnings per shared down

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Speaker 2: by eight point nine percent overall for the year, the

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Speaker 2: group making a lost mainly because of the way in

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Speaker 2: which it had to sell its operations in Poland and Switzerland.

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Speaker 2: But that's not really the story. I suppose real story

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Speaker 2: probably is that the South African operations are looking stronger,

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Speaker 2: that operating profit is up two point three percent, crash

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Speaker 2: generation from operations grew by thirteen percent. Angelo Swartz is

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Speaker 2: the CEO of SPA Angelo. Good evening, Thank you for

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Speaker 2: your time. Good to talk to you again. Obviously you've

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Speaker 2: now finally got rid of your operations in Poland and Switzerland.

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Speaker 2: That's a big kind of thing off your neck. I

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Speaker 2: imagine you've had a sigh of relief that that's finally

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Speaker 2: done and dusted.

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Speaker 4: Good evening, Stephen, Thanks for having me. Yeah, I haven't

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Speaker 4: heard someone describe it quite that way than the post,

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Speaker 4: but I guess I guess there's true today. I think

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Speaker 4: those businesses, whilst there's massive potential in both those markets

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Speaker 4: to grow them, I just don't think a South African

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Speaker 4: operator was that. I operated to get the best out

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Speaker 4: of those business as well as a get to be carried,

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Speaker 4: which was the main concern in both those businesses, which

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Speaker 4: we've thankfully now been able to bring to a close.

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Speaker 4: As you mentioned, GASH generated at nearly forty percent from

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Speaker 4: continuing your operations and get down forty nearly forty percent

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Speaker 4: of the end, which is a big high life past.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, what did you do to grow that

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Speaker 2: cash generation? What changes did you make in your operations

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Speaker 2: to get there? Some of it was operational, Your operational

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Speaker 2: costs seemed to be downe your logistics seemed to be

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Speaker 2: doing a little better, low fuel costs, things like that.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So obviously with us being a wholesaler, delivering to independence

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Speaker 4: and to our fuel costs is a big part of

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Speaker 4: our cost space, and so careful management to fuel costant

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Speaker 4: ending having a support of fuel process assisted there. So

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Speaker 4: our fuel costs and our delivery costs down substantially relative

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Speaker 4: to our turnover. Also slight margin expansion in essays, so

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Speaker 4: margins at three basis points, which obviously helps despite being

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Speaker 4: a lot more aggressive in a market from an advertising perspective.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, lots of lots of good stories in the

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Speaker 4: SA business. SA operating profit app nearly seven percent up,

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Speaker 4: which we which were happy with. I would have liked

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Speaker 4: a bit more, but seven percent is nothing to be

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Speaker 4: sneezed that in the current environment.

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Speaker 2: No, sure, you said you use discipline, price and promotion

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Speaker 2: management and we've heard in the past that in this

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Speaker 2: space promotions do matter. How important are they to you?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think there's think consumer like consumers everywhere in

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Speaker 4: the world at the moment, but under a lot of pressure.

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Speaker 4: Despite inflation seemingly being at lowers, you know, the cost

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Speaker 4: of living in ESA has continued to increase in consumers

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Speaker 4: really at the end of a long into inter cycle,

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Speaker 4: and this considerable amount of pressure, and so consumers shop

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Speaker 4: it around quite a bit. And effectiveness of promotions has

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Speaker 4: become a big draw card, and we've seen it as

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Speaker 4: proportionate swing towards promotional sales in the last while. And

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Speaker 4: so it's important to be you know, on targeting.

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Speaker 2: You refer to the point that you're really a wholesaler sailor.

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Speaker 2: So when I talk about your retail loyalty, I'm really

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Speaker 2: I suppose, as I understand it, talking about your member stores,

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Speaker 2: and you've been able to improve that your member stores

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Speaker 2: by nearly eighty percent of their goods from you. There's

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Speaker 2: tough competition out there. Is it hard to increase that?

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Speaker 2: Do you think it is? It is?

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Speaker 4: Even so, although we slightly down yere on your sixty

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Speaker 4: basis points for the last six months in H two

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Speaker 4: we did increase that by a four percent, which we

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Speaker 4: really proud of, especially under the Tarentinian conditions. We don't

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Speaker 4: we don't have any minimum loyalty criteria or fors are

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Speaker 4: etilis the biromast for any reason, to keep the system

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Speaker 4: as competitive as possible.

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Speaker 2: And I think.

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Speaker 4: You know that the result really talks to a really

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Speaker 4: strong performance by our teams going forward.

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Speaker 2: You say you're going to implement you called it a

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Speaker 2: risk controlled rollout of S A P. This is the

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Speaker 2: software program and they've been You've had big problems with

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Speaker 2: that in the past, Durban particularly. How have you changed

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Speaker 2: the way you roll that out? Are you feeling a

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Speaker 2: bit more confident about it? I think you said today

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Speaker 2: that you're not quite halfway on that yet.

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Speaker 4: Yes, so, I mean, as you and I have discussed

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Speaker 4: in the FoST we learned lots of lessons from the

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Speaker 4: first from the first goal live in President it's the

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Speaker 4: only one we've done so far. I think the big

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Speaker 4: difference in terms of how we are looking at that

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Speaker 4: all as going forward is that we won't be doing

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Speaker 4: a bulk go live or sort of going all ins

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Speaker 4: as we did in kase N where we change all

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Speaker 4: our systems, both our ERP and warehouse management system at

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Speaker 4: the same time. And so we're going to be migrating

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Speaker 4: our dissolution centers in phase one onto the ERP and

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Speaker 4: they'd say purchasing management and general ledger portion of the

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Speaker 4: business through April and May, and then we'll do a

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Speaker 4: cautious rollout of the warehouse management system where a lot

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Speaker 4: of the issues were in case it in and we'll

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Speaker 4: do that one dissolution set at a time. Starting in

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Speaker 4: the Eastern Pet towards July, you're joining other retailers. You're

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Speaker 4: getting more and more into the pets space. Your brand

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Speaker 4: is pet Story. Is there a lot of room for

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Speaker 4: growth there?

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Speaker 2: Angela? I mean, people spend a fortune on their pets.

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Speaker 2: Everyone seems to be getting in on it, and certainly

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Speaker 2: it would seem to be maybe one of the new

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Speaker 2: places people are going to compete.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think in many ways. So that I think

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Speaker 4: in particularly in the higher LSMs, South African consumers mimit

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Speaker 4: what we see in Europe, and we are seeing smaller

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Speaker 4: families than in many cases families not having kids in

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Speaker 4: adopting tests, and so the pet market is something that

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Speaker 4: we see growing going forth. Having said that, as you

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Speaker 4: as I mentioned and you get earlier, we are primarily

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Speaker 4: a whole saler, and so what we're seeing is a

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Speaker 4: market that is becoming dominated by corporate players. And really

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Speaker 4: our model is one that supports independent retail and we

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Speaker 4: see that there's a that the market primarily was run

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Speaker 4: by independent retailers, and so we see value that we

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Speaker 4: can add to the independent tailors to help them compete

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Speaker 4: against the change. And I mean we do that successfully

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Speaker 4: in liquor. I mean our Tops brand is probably the

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Speaker 4: most well known liquor brand in the country. We do

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Speaker 4: that in in groceries with the second biggest grosser in

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Speaker 4: the country. So I think we know how to do this,

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Speaker 4: and pitt is just an area in which I think

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Speaker 4: we can bring up expertise to be able to assist

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Speaker 4: independent y Dylan compete with the change.

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Speaker 2: Angela, thank you so much for the time. Angelo Swartz

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Speaker 2: is the CEO at Spart. Twenty minutes after six.

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Speaker 6: Stephen's on the Money Show six to eight pm, the

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Speaker 6: packaging producer Nampack reporting today trading profit up by twenty

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Speaker 6: six percent off revenue that was up by eight percent.

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Speaker 2: Trading margins improved as well. As a result, their headline

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Speaker 2: endings per serer up by forty six percent. Glenn Fullerton

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Speaker 2: is the chief financial officer at Nampack. Glen good Evening,

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Speaker 2: A long hard road for you. You're generating more cash now,

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Speaker 2: how have you been able to do that? You made

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Speaker 2: some significant changes.

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Speaker 7: Good Evening, Stephen. It has been certainly along and hard

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Speaker 7: road years ago and Nampack entered into some foreign markets,

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Speaker 7: most notably Nigerian and Gola, and there've been some head

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Speaker 7: wins that the group has faced for some time. As

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Speaker 7: the group has become more focused and we've been through

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Speaker 7: an asset disposal process that has been very successful. We've

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Speaker 7: also focused on reducing our operating costs. Has been a

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Speaker 7: laser focus on those operating costs, a very strong focus

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Speaker 7: on weekend capital management, and a very very meaningful reduction

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Speaker 7: in our interest costs in the year. So a culmination

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Speaker 7: of all those aspects has allowed us to produce a

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Speaker 7: significant am more cash as here and increase our earness.

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Speaker 2: I mean you've got one and a half billion round

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Speaker 2: from some of those disposals. I was curious about COVID nineteen,

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Speaker 2: which is not a phrase I thought i'd have to

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Speaker 2: bring up with you, but you've got two hundred and

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Speaker 2: thirty seven million round from an insurance claim related to

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Speaker 2: COVID nineteen. What happened with that claim? Then?

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Speaker 7: It's been a complex claim that's spanned obviously several years.

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Speaker 7: It's quite a complicated settlement. In these environments. There are

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Speaker 7: two types of claims, one under infectious diseases and one

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Speaker 7: under a closure of premises, and there were different threshold

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Speaker 7: limits that one could claim under. We start to our

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Speaker 7: guns on the core reasons for the claim, and after

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Speaker 7: a long and arduous engagement, we were able to settle

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Speaker 7: on terming thirty seven million settlement for this claim.

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Speaker 2: It sounds like the lawyers were busy, Glenn. You refer

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Speaker 2: to an issue at your Springs line too, which affected

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Speaker 2: your production. It's a new line for you, newly commissioned.

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Speaker 2: Have you been able to properly resolve that issue?

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Speaker 7: You know, upgrading these particular lines. It's more complex than

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Speaker 7: meets the eye. These cans made it a very very

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Speaker 7: high speed and a very low tolerance level of any errors.

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Speaker 7: It took a little bit more work than we thought

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Speaker 7: to bed that down, so unfortunately we missed some of

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Speaker 7: the Eastern Christmas. You know volume that we could get

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Speaker 7: out of that business really from own goals, from a

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Speaker 7: production perspective, we are well positioned now to capitalize on

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Speaker 7: strong volumes in those two periods of the year. So

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Speaker 7: we look forward to much improved revenue number coming from

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Speaker 7: our beverage South Africa business.

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Speaker 2: You're actually relocating. You've got a spare line and Angola

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Speaker 2: and you're moving it here. I presume that's quite a

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Speaker 2: complex process. You're basically shipping an entire factory here.

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Speaker 7: It's an enormous task. That line was mothboards some years ago.

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Speaker 7: There was a very significant increase in profitability in Angola

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Speaker 7: in about twenty sixteen. The currency then for whatever reason,

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Speaker 7: the world price came back quite sharply and there was

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Speaker 7: important inflation into that market and we didn't need that

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Speaker 7: client going forward, so it sat there Idol for some years.

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Speaker 7: It's a very very complex task. Packed up one hundred

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Speaker 7: and thirty containers forty foot containers will be put on

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Speaker 7: a ship from Luanda ship to the Dirban port and

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Speaker 7: then driven up the M three to our Springs plant

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Speaker 7: and then reassembled in that plant. And the very positive

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Speaker 7: impact for Nampact will be the increased flexibility at a

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Speaker 7: significantly lower cost in buying a new line. It's a

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Speaker 7: sign cost within the group and really return on assets

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Speaker 7: there will be positively impacted by using idle equipment that

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Speaker 7: we had in the Angolan market.

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Speaker 2: Are you seeing a change in what people want from you?

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Speaker 2: And I'm talking particularly about the size of cans and

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Speaker 2: large cans. They're a lot more energy drinks around. People

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Speaker 2: want the bigger one, the half a liter. Are you

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Speaker 2: seeing that demand demand for that particular size grown?

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Speaker 7: There's an extraordinary demand for five hundred lilter cans. The

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Speaker 7: energy drink sector is driving that market, you know, in

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Speaker 7: a very meaningful way. And part of the flexibility that

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Speaker 7: we're building into our Springs operations is to deal with

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Speaker 7: that market trend. So we are bringing in the line

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Speaker 7: from Angola to actually deal with the smaller sized demand

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Speaker 7: the three hundred and the three thirty millimeter cans, and

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Speaker 7: then we are going to upgrade one or other lines

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Speaker 7: to augment the capacity that we've got on the five

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Speaker 7: hundred million liter can. So it's a very real growing trend.

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Speaker 7: There are some innovative products that are coming into those markets,

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Speaker 7: and we're seeing a demand exceeding our ability to supply

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Speaker 7: at this point, so there is upside potential for volumes

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Speaker 7: going forward as we position our plant to capitalize on

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Speaker 7: that future.

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Speaker 2: You're clearly on the road to recovery. There are some

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Speaker 2: changes coming through in the next little while. You're pretty

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Speaker 2: confident you'll still be able to reduce your debt further

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Speaker 2: increase your earnings. You and I mean you've already reduced

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Speaker 2: your operating cost light significantly, but you'll obviously keep that

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Speaker 2: process going too.

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Speaker 7: You know, there are a couple of big leavers that

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Speaker 7: one has got to control to keep producing.

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Speaker 8: The debt.

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Speaker 7: Margin focus is absolutely imperative, and we are focused on

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Speaker 7: that in a very very meaningful way. Overhead management is

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Speaker 7: critical and we are being relentless in that, and you know,

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Speaker 7: keeping our working capital under the significant control and producing

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Speaker 7: cash and lowering our interest costs is something that is

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Speaker 7: key to our drive to reduce the debt. If you

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Speaker 7: have a look at one of the slides that we

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Speaker 7: put up in the presentation today, despite achieving a leverage

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Speaker 7: ratio of two times, which is the net debty, but

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Speaker 7: this year, it's two years ahead of where we thought

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Speaker 7: we'd be had we been able to dispose our interest

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Speaker 7: in there's a Bobbie business, we would have been able

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Speaker 7: to get that ratio onto one point one time. So

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Speaker 7: I think with that asset still held, an asset held

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Speaker 7: for sale and strong initiatives to dispose of that asset

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Speaker 7: and continue to generate strong cash. We generated two billion

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Speaker 7: from operations this year in the business. Do you think

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Speaker 7: that the debt production will continue in a very meaningful

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Speaker 7: way going forward?

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Speaker 2: Glenn for listen, I really appreciate the time. It's fascinating,

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Speaker 2: Thank you very much. Indeed, the chief financial officer at

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Speaker 2: NAMPAK The Money Show, Arthur Harris is portfolio manager at

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Speaker 2: Macro Solutions at the Old Mutual Investment Group, Arthur good

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Speaker 2: evening at NAMPAK, let's pick it up on that they'd

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Speaker 2: do sem to be making strong progress.

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Speaker 8: Yes, they have, but they've taken some very very strong actions.

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Speaker 8: I think they managed to be quite brave when full

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Speaker 8: re arrived there. They've got a right issue. They've sold

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Speaker 8: the Nigerian business. They've really taken some tough actions and

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Speaker 8: I think the benefits of those are coming through now.

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Speaker 8: I mean, you can see that they're continuing to be tough,

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Speaker 8: so not just staying the kind of okay turnover growth.

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Speaker 8: They're a little bit of really good operating result because

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Speaker 8: they kept their expenses very tightly under control, and then

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Speaker 8: the benefits of all of all of the sales and

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Speaker 8: the life coming through with the interest line merely having

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Speaker 8: so very strong result at both the operating line and

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Speaker 8: at the finance line.

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Speaker 2: As far also obviously technically, I suppose they made a

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Speaker 2: loss for the year, but their local operations, do you

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Speaker 2: seem to be making progress amid incredibly tough competition.

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Speaker 8: Yes, and they've got some disadvantages when you compare them.

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Speaker 8: You mentioned shop Right when you were speaking to Angelau earlier.

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Speaker 8: Then they own a whole franchise check so there are wholesalers,

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Speaker 8: and they can't simply impose their ideas onto the franchisees.

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Speaker 8: They kind of have to sell it to them. So

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Speaker 8: let's left them like a little bit behind playing catch

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Speaker 8: up and something like food grocery delivery, where Checkers has

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Speaker 8: made really taken advantage of that. So it's a little

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Speaker 8: bit tougher for them to adapt to the quickly to

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Speaker 8: the likes of a shop right or or worse. And

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Speaker 8: they're finding that, you know, they're finding the same tough

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Speaker 8: environment that everyone is speccing itself, so they're finding that

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Speaker 8: in Ireland as well.

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Speaker 2: Ab said a trading updates are they guidance largely unchained,

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Speaker 2: not a huge amount of information.

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Speaker 8: There, A little bit better than expected. I think it

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Speaker 8: really confirmed the direction that everyone expected them to be on.

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Speaker 8: I think with the change of CEO there, what you

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Speaker 8: really want is you want all the metrics to start

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Speaker 8: heading in the right direction. And they were confident enough

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Speaker 8: to give us some medium term guidance where they expect

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Speaker 8: their cost to income ratio to go from fifty three

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Speaker 8: percent down to fifty percent over over the next three years,

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Speaker 8: so saying that they're going to keep their revenue growth

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Speaker 8: going faster than their costs so they can do that.

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Speaker 8: That'll be a very good outcome for the.

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Speaker 2: Cap tech today. Four hundred million round on wallet Dock.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know much about that company, but

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Speaker 2: just the fact that they're investing again in payment systems

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Speaker 2: we've seen so much, as so many developments in fintech.

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Speaker 2: It's a kind of indication of where we are at

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Speaker 2: the moment.

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Speaker 8: Absolutely, this is an area that you must expect more

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Speaker 8: action and you must expect impacts on the incumbents. So

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Speaker 8: the Reserve Bank has indicated that it wants to bring

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Speaker 8: down the cost of payments in this country. How much

385
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Speaker 8: it costs you to pay your bills online and move

386
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Speaker 8: money around online. So people are positioning for that and

387
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Speaker 8: Capy Tech Definity is trying to get in on that trend,

388
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Speaker 8: and Walletjock is part of that. So you need all

389
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Speaker 8: the bits of the chain. You need those little machines

390
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,440
Speaker 8: that you tap on with your card, you need the

391
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Speaker 8: ability to pay online. I've got a bill the other

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Speaker 8: day and it's had a very convenient snapscan code in it.

393
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Speaker 8: No ways going to open up our bank app and

394
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Speaker 8: go jumps or those hoops add a new beneficiary. Just

395
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Speaker 8: click on that one second it's done. So that tells

396
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Speaker 8: you the environment is changing, and the Capitech is trying

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Speaker 8: to position itself for that.

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Speaker 2: In the US if we can. So, just as the

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Speaker 2: weekend was starting Netflix off at seventy two billion, round

400
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Speaker 2: for seventy three billion dollars for Warner Brothers Discovery, suddenly

401
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:04,720
Speaker 2: Paramount offering a much greater amount of money. I hate

402
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Speaker 2: to say it, but it seems to my cynical mind

403
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Speaker 2: that there's a politics here because sort of you know,

404
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Speaker 2: the Trump administration and media, etc. And the owners of Paramount,

405
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Speaker 2: how do you understand what's going on.

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Speaker 8: So the different view relationships there. So the news talk

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Speaker 8: is that the Netflix CEO did go and talk to

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Speaker 8: Trump about this, so he was aware of the fact

409
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Speaker 8: that it was going to happen. But then the Paramount

410
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Speaker 8: business is controlled my one of the son of Larry Ellison,

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Speaker 8: who is a very close Trump ally, so it gets

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Speaker 8: a bit tricky at that level. I think the big

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Speaker 8: issue here for Netflix is probably the competitive angles. You know,

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Speaker 8: how much is the antitrust regulation going to allow them

415
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Speaker 8: to own of the market and something like Warner Brothers.

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Speaker 8: With the title that it owns and the movies that

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Speaker 8: it has in its library, that's an asset that you

418
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Speaker 8: simply cannot replicate. It doesn't matter how much money you have.

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Speaker 8: You can't go and build it tomorrow. So it's going

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Speaker 8: to be very, very valuable to somebody. It's going to

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Speaker 8: become obvious the time where someone overpays written often in

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Speaker 8: this kind of a heated bidding. More people do overpay.

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Speaker 8: But clearly this is a tricky deal for a little

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Speaker 8: bit tries to do it.

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Speaker 2: Al think Haras, Thanks very much. Indeed, portfolio manager at

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Speaker 2: macro Solutions at all the old mutual investment Group. Just

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Speaker 2: after six thirty.

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Speaker 6: What's up Stephen on seven two seven oh two one.

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Speaker 2: Twenty two minutes now to seven the time I was

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Speaker 2: making the point earlier. Is there a good way to

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Speaker 2: say to someone you're not going to get all of

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Speaker 2: your money on time? There probably isn't, but there are

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Speaker 2: certainly worse ways rather than you know, non good ways.

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Speaker 2: One of the things that people do is they just

435
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Speaker 2: stick their head in the sand. You see it all

436
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Speaker 2: the time. Maybe they won't notice, they always notice, take

437
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:49,080
Speaker 2: it from me, they always notice. I noticed again today

438
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,360
Speaker 2: another prominent South African talking about what they see as

439
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:55,679
Speaker 2: the green shoots, things that have improved this time, the

440
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,479
Speaker 2: term of the sum of orsaal from Business Leadership South Africa,

441
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 2: the CEO there uh and see so much sort of

442
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 2: positivity around. I realized the economy still not really growing

443
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,119
Speaker 2: a half a percentage point in the last in the

444
00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,679
Speaker 2: third quarter, I will point zero five percent is what

445
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 2: you is what I mean. But we're just not seeing,

446
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,840
Speaker 2: you know, the change on the ground. And yet all

447
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,160
Speaker 2: of the things seem to be moving in the right direction,

448
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 2: helped of course by a slightly stronger rand, a weeker dollar,

449
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 2: stronger golden platinum prices, all of those things. If all

450
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:30,719
Speaker 2: of those things are correct, and all of that optimism

451
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:34,120
Speaker 2: is correct, or twenty twenty six could really be our year.

452
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 2: But it might just still be a little sense of

453
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 2: it's still twenty twenty feeling around you. I'm not sure

454
00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 2: how you're feeling about it at the moment. Good to

455
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 2: hear from you on that on those seven two seven

456
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:45,399
Speaker 2: oh two one seven o two.

457
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:50,640
Speaker 3: The Loney Show with Stephen krutis live on ninety two point.

458
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:54,120
Speaker 2: Seven and one o six FM, streaming on the Prime Media.

459
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 1: Plus NAP and DStv channel eight five.

460
00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 2: Six seventeen minutes now to seven the time well. Confirmation

461
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,880
Speaker 2: from the Reserve Bank that what is called the Johannesburg

462
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 2: Interbank Average Rate, a reference rate that commercial banks use

463
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 2: to lend money to each other, is being phased out.

464
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,880
Speaker 2: It's called jaibar. Your home loan might be tied to jibar,

465
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 2: and it's now going to change. It's being replaced by

466
00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 2: the Essay Rand Overnight Index Average, which is known as zoronia, which,

467
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 2: let's be clear, is a much better name. Debra Carmichael's

468
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,439
Speaker 2: the executive director in Banking and Finance at Ians Debora.

469
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,440
Speaker 2: Good evening. We're going to have to start at the

470
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,040
Speaker 2: very beginning here. What are reference rates and why are

471
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:35,879
Speaker 2: they so important?

472
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,160
Speaker 9: Very good to be on your show. Thank you very

473
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 9: much for having me. So what is the reference rate?

474
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:48,360
Speaker 9: I think the reference rate is effectively in South Africa,

475
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 9: the benchmark rate that depends a number of cash market,

476
00:25:53,200 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 9: money market and potentially derivatives transactions, and so it's fundamental

477
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:05,400
Speaker 9: rate within the South African financial markets effectively.

478
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 2: Okay, why would you have more than one rate in

479
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,679
Speaker 2: the first place. I presume they're and made. They have

480
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 2: different elements that they're arrived at in different ways.

481
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:20,360
Speaker 9: One hundred and so different different markets. So for example,

482
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 9: your cash markets or your retail markets would potentially have

483
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,439
Speaker 9: different rates. Your money market is going to have a

484
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:32,959
Speaker 9: different rate. Derivatives transactions primarily operate already in the overnight market.

485
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 9: So so really the financial markets operate in all sorts

486
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 9: of one of we have fund or four ways behind

487
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 9: the scenes that often we don't see. I mean, we'll

488
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,919
Speaker 9: often see, for example, the repo rate, and that's the

489
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 9: one that everybody watches because you know, the SARM moves

490
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 9: it up or down, and then our.

491
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:51,360
Speaker 2: Rangest rates go up.

492
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 9: So there's all sorts of rates underpinned by benchmark rates.

493
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 9: Jaibar has for a very long time obviously underpinned a

494
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 9: number of big corporate transactions and the yeah, the transactions

495
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,640
Speaker 9: that underpin corporate South Africa have typically referenced that rate

496
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 9: for all of their cash markets transactions. Cash markets includes

497
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:19,120
Speaker 9: loans and it also includes the bond markets, so when

498
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,479
Speaker 9: people raise money on the JC or all manner of things.

499
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 9: Gibar has underpinned that rate for I think three decades.

500
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 2: Who sets Gibar? How's it set?

501
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 9: Yeah? So actually this is a really interesting question, which

502
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 9: are with the whole heap of tentacles of answers. But

503
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:44,400
Speaker 9: it's so it's administered by the South African Reserve Bank,

504
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 9: and it is created by banks in the interbank markets

505
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 9: selling what are called negotiable certificates of deposit to each other.

506
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 9: So that's the rate at which banks in the overnight

507
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 9: or the average rated market will borrow and lend effectively

508
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 9: from each other. So you could buy a negotiable certificate

509
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:16,199
Speaker 9: deposit for for example, a first round three month negotiable

510
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 9: certificate of deposit with a ten or of three months.

511
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,919
Speaker 9: But what basically happens is a number of banks contribute

512
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,919
Speaker 9: to the rate. The South African Reserve Bank tops and

513
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,639
Speaker 9: tails of those contributions and comes out with, as you

514
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 9: said right at the beginning, the average rate over a

515
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 9: number of those contributors.

516
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:39,600
Speaker 2: And that is so.

517
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,479
Speaker 9: The way Jivar is open inverted comma is policed is

518
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 9: through a Jibar Code of Conduct that is published by

519
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:48,719
Speaker 9: the South African Reserve Bank, and then a number of

520
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 9: banks subscribe to in their submissions to the rate, how

521
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 9: they have to top and tail when there are corrections, etc.

522
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 2: Etceter. Okay, now I understand and that we're making this

523
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 2: change not because of anything to do with Jibar, but

524
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 2: because of something that happened in Libel, which sounds like

525
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 2: a small country far away, but in fact it's the

526
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 2: London equivalent. And correct me if I'm wrong. But there

527
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 2: was a scandal involving traders who manipulated the London libar,

528
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 2: and as a result of that, people were concerned that

529
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 2: Jibar could be manipulated too easily. Now they're investigated, they

530
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 2: found that it wasn't. But we're doing this to make

531
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 2: sure that doesn't happen. Is that right?

532
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 9: Yeah, that's that is correct, Stephen. I mean I think

533
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 9: that was so. The way in which the London Interbank

534
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 9: offered rate was submitted lightly different from the way Johannesburg

535
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 9: inter Bank average rate is submitted, and I think that

536
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 9: so exactly that that is what led to the whole

537
00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 9: of Group of twenty financial stability mandate being re looked

538
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 9: at and stability in relation to benchmarks re looked at.

539
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 9: The scale was a scandal, but it didn't involve and

540
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 9: didn't result in any conviction relation in relation to Libel.

541
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 2: So then, how is Erronia different and how can it

542
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 2: not be vulnerable to manipulation in the way that jibar

543
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 2: is or we worry that it is. Debra Cormack, I

544
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 2: don't know if you're still with us.

545
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 9: Yeah, no, I am still with you. Sorry, I don't

546
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 9: know why my internet connection is so unstable when I'm

547
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 9: on the radio. No, so ours was not vulnerable to

548
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 9: manipulation in the same way that Libel was. Ours was

549
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 9: just our transaction data was very thin, however, and so

550
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 9: the market based on Gibar was not as representative of

551
00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:00,040
Speaker 9: the actual market in which we existed, rather than it

552
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 9: being subject to manipulation. Okay, so that's where we were

553
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 9: quite different from I'm not sure.

554
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, but why is the Ronia better? All right? We

555
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 2: seem to have lost Deborah Carmichael there, the executive director

556
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 2: in banking and Finance at I and S. I'm sorry

557
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 2: about that, as you can hear, I have a million

558
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 2: questions about this because it's quite a technical area, and

559
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 2: I've just been communicating with the production team of The

560
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 2: Money Show. I'm hoping we'll get a thumbs up when

561
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 2: I suggest we do this for Investment School on Thursday night,

562
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 2: because I think there's a lot more to explore here.

563
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 2: And also I've always found when there is a change

564
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 2: to this kind of situation or to something like this,

565
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 2: it opens the door to conversations about how things actually work.

566
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 2: You take so many things for granted, you don't always

567
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 2: know how it actually works. Who decides, who says, why?

568
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 2: When did this happen, what's the history of that? Those

569
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 2: kinds of things, And my suggestion at the moment, and

570
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 2: I think what we are going to try and do

571
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 2: on Thursday is get into this issue a little bit more.

572
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 2: What's Jaibar, where's it going? What's the why is lib

573
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 2: or related to it? All of those things. I think

574
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 2: there's a lot more to look at there. You can

575
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 2: get your questions and advance as well, and if you

576
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 2: have any thoughts or comments voice notes on seven two

577
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 2: seven two one seven two. It's ten minutes to seven.

578
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 10: The Money Show Steeple Protest is brought to you by

579
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 10: Abscess the ib discover the latest trendsit shaping digital assets

580
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,960
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581
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:27,960
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582
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 2: Well eight minutes now to seven the time an announcement

583
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,479
Speaker 2: from Eskim and produces a ferrochrome that they finalized a

584
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 2: memorandum of understanding. The whole idea here is to allow

585
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 2: people to who operate smelters to restart production. You'll know

586
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 2: you've heard many times nearly all of our smelter operators

587
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 2: have shut their furnaces. The price of electricity is too

588
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 2: high for them to compete, is what they say. Eskim,

589
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 2: of course, doesn't want to sell electricity for less than

590
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 2: it is selling it at the moment. The RP for

591
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 2: lot is the CEO at Glencore lawyer's one of the

592
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 2: big operators in this space. Yah'll be good evening. I

593
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 2: really appreciate the time. Thank you. We can also see

594
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 2: the real issue as electricity prices. What kind of agreement

595
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 2: have you reached with Eskimon? I presume government's involved in here,

596
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 2: sorry somewhere.

597
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 8: Yeah, I was even good speaking to you again that

598
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 8: I think the last time when I spoke to you,

599
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 8: we were going into the section one eighty nine, if

600
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:29,680
Speaker 8: you can recall. So, I mean obviously we as Lincal Marafi,

601
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 8: I only had like a couple of weeks left before

602
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 8: I had to retriee thousands of people. So obviously government

603
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 8: and everybody working really odd to find a solution. And

604
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 8: I can't tell you that the MLU that we did

605
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 8: sign obviously it's not a done deal yet. There's still

606
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 8: a lot of work to be done. But definitely for

607
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 8: us as Lincal Morafi, it's definitely a positive move. And

608
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 8: what a will mean is that we will now work

609
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,959
Speaker 8: with ESCOM, we will work with government and trying to

610
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 8: foreign solutions that we know there are definitely possible solutions

611
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 8: are there.

612
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 2: So I'm presuming that that this all depends on whether

613
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,240
Speaker 2: you can get cheaper electricity. I mean, if you can't,

614
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 2: none of it works. Is that right?

615
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 8: That is some of pers in correct place? Okay, I

616
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:23,720
Speaker 8: mean yeah, don't now, no, no, I mean that's the

617
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 8: basis of this. I mean you know that in specifically

618
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 8: ferrochrome between ourselves and also some man core. I mean,

619
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,399
Speaker 8: if you have a look at our operations, we've got

620
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 8: zero out of twenty two furnaces now running zero, so

621
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,799
Speaker 8: we are just exporting all the all so for us

622
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:41,919
Speaker 8: to be able to make it work, we need cheap

623
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 8: electricity and unfortunate, electricity constitutes about between thirty and forty

624
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 8: percent of our operating costs with the electricity, So for

625
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,399
Speaker 8: that reason, if it's inflated the way that it is now,

626
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 8: I mean you would know what can remember that? You

627
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 8: know we talked about nine hundred percent increase since two

628
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 8: thousand and eight, so it's impossible to smelt economically in

629
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 8: South Africa and for that reason we need, you know,

630
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 8: we need a solution you're expecting.

631
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 2: I think the ESCUM statement referred to an interim tariff.

632
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 2: What is the interim tariff? I don't mean the amount

633
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 2: that hasn't been determined yet. I don't think but why

634
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 2: is it interim? Is it because you're expecting a sort

635
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 2: of deeper conversation in the future.

636
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean what what I made it quite known

637
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 8: the ESKIM is that the interim solution, unfortunately for mesically

638
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 8: of course, not going to help. We need we need

639
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 8: to find the final solution, and there's deffinitely mechanisms out

640
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 8: that we can get to a price that that would

641
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 8: be doable for all of us. We've been putting a

642
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 8: couple of ideas on the table with the ISCOM. I

643
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 8: must honestly, you know, say stealing that there's time around

644
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 8: between you know, the CEO of ISCAM, the Minister, everybody

645
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:02,279
Speaker 8: really wants to help, I mean, the Presidency that are

646
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 8: all involved in this, and and we know that that

647
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,319
Speaker 8: they that they could be solutions just as long as

648
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 8: the primary producers doesn't suffer. I think that that's that's

649
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 8: very important on the US as you know, the you know,

650
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 8: the men in the street are not supposed to be

651
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 8: worse off by a solution because then it's actually only

652
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 8: a subsidy.

653
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 2: No sure, but I mean, isn't it going to have

654
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 2: to be a subsidy? There isn't any other way. I mean,

655
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 2: you're going to have to pay less for electricity than

656
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 2: I do, and in return, you're probably going to be

657
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 2: able to re employ the people you had to let

658
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:39,399
Speaker 2: go and you'll create a downstream industry. I mean, isn't

659
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 2: that how this is going to have to work?

660
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 8: Yeah? I mean what you want to really do is

661
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 8: you want to find the mechanism that you that you

662
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 8: move away from from a tariff or a subsody because

663
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,800
Speaker 8: I can tell you, you know, we are talking about

664
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 8: a lot of money here and we don't want to

665
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 8: do it. You know, we don't want to let somebody

666
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 8: else up there because of they are just trying to

667
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,919
Speaker 8: save you a beneficiation. They're all you know solutions out

668
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 8: there that that can work. I mean, you know the

669
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:13,799
Speaker 8: I P p PPI type of concept where you take

670
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 8: thermal coal and you and you convert that into you know, electrons,

671
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 8: but I mean you can do it through another mechanism.

672
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 8: So there's there's a lot of moving cops in this

673
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 8: whole discussion. But definitely I am actually quite excited about it.

674
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 2: No, I'm sure. I mean, what so some of those

675
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 2: solutions would be I presume, you know, having independent power

676
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,239
Speaker 2: producers generating electricity phabs in different ways, but even then

677
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 2: that's quite difficult. I mean, in the end, smelter is

678
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 2: the very definition of what you would call a customer

679
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 2: of baseload. You need reliable electricity and you need an

680
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 2: awful lot of it. So you're exactly the reason why

681
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 2: someone would build, I mean, the reasons why you wouldn't

682
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:00,960
Speaker 2: build a coal fired pass. But it would be the

683
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:02,800
Speaker 2: strongest argument for nuclear that there.

684
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 8: Is, yes, and I think, I think within your own

685
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 8: you know submission now is the fact that we are baseload.

686
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 8: Actually South Africa needs baseloads. They need us, and because

687
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:19,360
Speaker 8: you are stabilizing the great tonight when everybody sleeps, we

688
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 8: actually consume all those electrons. So it's actually for ISCOM.

689
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:28,839
Speaker 8: A very important portion is that because of the you

690
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 8: know that let's say the cost curve and the way

691
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 8: that it works, ISCOME is actually heavily dependent on let's

692
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 8: call it the energy intensive users. So we need to

693
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 8: find need solutions and like I said, I really believe

694
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,319
Speaker 8: that this time around we will be able to find them.

695
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 2: Years you seem to be getting on quite well with Eskim.

696
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 2: How big is the role that government is playing in

697
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 2: all of this. I mean, I presume they have huge

698
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:54,279
Speaker 2: interests in this too.

699
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 8: No, I at just think I can tell you the government,

700
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 8: and I'm not going to all the you know good

701
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 8: you know the people by name, but I can tell

702
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 8: you that that the Presidency, I got special advisors and

703
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,879
Speaker 8: everybody is everybody is really trying to help. And we've

704
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 8: got we've got some really clever people out there. And

705
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 8: I can tell you that that the government also understands.

706
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,399
Speaker 8: Remember if we close down shop two thousand and five

707
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 8: on the direct employees, ten thousand direct GDP times five

708
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 8: and you know it's going to be a massive impact,

709
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 8: you know, let's on the economy, so very important that

710
00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,799
Speaker 8: this is a solution that could work for the whole

711
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:36,440
Speaker 8: of South Africa.

712
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, for lot, thanks so much, really appreciate the time.

713
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:42,760
Speaker 2: Very interesting to watch that process. The CEO at glen

714
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,439
Speaker 2: Core Alloys we will be speaking to in a moment,

715
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 2: Hilton Kilner's the CEO at Discovery Bank. His reading list

716
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 2: for the Christmas period is going to share that with us.

717
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 2: We'll speak to doctor Rolf Mtecher as well. And how

718
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 2: I make my money with the Money Show at seven o'clock.

719
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:02,720
Speaker 3: And now The Money Show with Stephen Skredits on seven

720
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 3: oh two.

721
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 1: Let's walk little.

722
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 2: The Money Show with Stephen Crotis has brought to you

723
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 2: by abscess cib Discover the latest strengths shaping digital assets

724
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 2: across Africa. Download the ABS Africa Digital Assets Insides twenty

725
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 2: twenty five seven minutes after seven the time don't forget

726
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 2: in my money. This week we'll be speaking to doctor

727
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 2: Ralph Matecha from seven point thirty this evening. Never actually

728
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:26,879
Speaker 2: sat down with the political analyst and gone where does

729
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:28,920
Speaker 2: your money come from? What do you do to get it?

730
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 2: He's also, by the way, I don't know if you

731
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 2: know this about him. He's a farmer. And I'm very

732
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 2: aware that the ANC's National General Council is underway, which

733
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:39,319
Speaker 2: is well and of the reasons I thought this might

734
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:41,360
Speaker 2: actually be a good moment. We'll put some questions to

735
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 2: him about that as well. The ANC leader, President Siam

736
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 2: Mapausal was talking earlier today. The Secretary General for Kidan

737
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 2: Belula has been talking big promises of changes to the

738
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 2: seaters and things like that. That was my reaction too,

739
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 2: But we'll talk a little bit about that with doctor

740
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:00,319
Speaker 2: Ralph Matecha, and in a moment something we try and

741
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,800
Speaker 2: do every year if we can looking at the books

742
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 2: that people read and the Discovery Banks. He Oh, Hilton

743
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 2: Kelner is here to discuss his holiday reading list. Good

744
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 2: to hear from you as well. Oh double one A

745
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:13,840
Speaker 2: three oh seven two two one four four six O

746
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 2: five six seven What are you reading at the moment

747
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 2: and why O seven two seven oh two one seven

748
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 2: oh two.

749
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 1: O my show for business books.

750
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 2: Well, as you know, this is the one time of

751
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:30,240
Speaker 2: year when quite a few people have time to sit back, relax.

752
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,280
Speaker 2: You can possibly already hear the wind rustling in the trees,

753
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,719
Speaker 2: or the waves actually just in the distance and haul

754
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 2: out a book, or if you read it on an

755
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 2: e reader as I like to do, getting that ready

756
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,480
Speaker 2: and making sure it's charged and all the rest, and

757
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 2: just looking at what you're actually going to read over

758
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 2: this Christmas. Or someone who may be a little ahead

759
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 2: of you in this I suppose is Hilton Kellner. He's

760
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 2: the CEO Discovery Bank and he puts together a list

761
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 2: for people he works with and he joins us now, Hilton,

762
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:58,759
Speaker 2: good evening, Thanks so much for coming in, Thanks so

763
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:00,959
Speaker 2: much for having me again. Steve. I don't know how

764
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 2: you decide to go through all the years of books

765
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 2: and come out with just ten. I mean, I would

766
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 2: probably be sitting with lists all over the place for months.

767
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 2: You start with Money Appropriately, A Story of Humanity by

768
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 2: David McWilliams. What's so special about this? So?

769
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 11: I mean, I think, you know, I think for any

770
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 11: banker seeing a title like Money is immediately immediately interesting.

771
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 11: But this one actually is is slightly different. It's actually

772
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 11: it's the history. It's the history of money, and it's

773
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 11: history told through money and kind of the concept of

774
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:34,359
Speaker 11: money and how people evolved, and it uses money as

775
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:35,319
Speaker 11: the kind of the.

776
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 2: Thread through through.

777
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:42,840
Speaker 11: History itself all the way through to cryptocurrency today and

778
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 11: how it reflects the almost the kind of the era

779
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 11: that that that we're in.

780
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,839
Speaker 2: So so it's a very smart book. It's it kind

781
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 2: of talks to.

782
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 11: The system of of money itself and how you kind

783
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 11: of you believe in in money and that's what creates

784
00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:58,799
Speaker 11: money if you think about it. You know, it's kind

785
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,840
Speaker 11: of the trust factor more so than anything else. And

786
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 11: so it really is it's a it's a it's a

787
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:06,959
Speaker 11: it's a it's more of a history book than finance book,

788
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 11: which is quite interesting for a banker.

789
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 2: So I thought very very interesting. I mean, what I

790
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 2: find on The Money Show is that conversations that we

791
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 2: have are about money, but they're actually about life. We

792
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 2: spoke to the see the chief financial officer at NAMPAC.

793
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:23,319
Speaker 2: That's all about beverages and what you're drinking. Basically, we

794
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 2: spoke about We spoke to the CEO. It's at the

795
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:27,839
Speaker 2: SPA group and what they're doing at the moment. That's

796
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 2: all about life. In a way, it seems like this

797
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 2: book is it's about money, but actually it's about people. Correct.

798
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 11: It's tracing it's really tracing history and and and in

799
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 11: a in a very kind of witty way.

800
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,279
Speaker 2: And it goes right from tablets.

801
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,399
Speaker 11: Through to fiat currency through to crypto all the way

802
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 11: and everything in between and credit and kind of digital currency,

803
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:53,239
Speaker 11: and it talks to to every step of the history of.

804
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 2: Humanity in many respects.

805
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:58,359
Speaker 11: So it's really really interesting and it kind of makes

806
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:01,760
Speaker 11: the point that studying money is about studying humans people,

807
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 11: and that's what it is.

808
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:05,319
Speaker 2: Number two on your list, I've got to tell you, Lpe. Now,

809
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:09,320
Speaker 2: I was a little surprised. Okay, it's unlocked by Izabeth.

810
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 2: Was this before the Whales game? It actually was.

811
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,800
Speaker 11: And uh, and you know, I mean, I'm a huge

812
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:19,359
Speaker 11: spring lock man, I suppose like every single other South

813
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 11: African and and we actually we had we had even

814
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:30,560
Speaker 11: at one of our conferences, just a fascinating, fascinating, brilliant,

815
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 11: sporting kind of giant. And and you know, when I

816
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:36,799
Speaker 11: saw the biography, other word, that's something to read on

817
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 11: a beach somewhere. Yeah, and and uh and and really

818
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:42,799
Speaker 11: looking looking forward, I think there's probably one chapter that

819
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:46,760
Speaker 11: still needs to be added to the book, but probably

820
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:49,000
Speaker 11: many more to come, hopefully. But but I think, you know,

821
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:51,280
Speaker 11: just I think, just given just given what an absolute

822
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:54,720
Speaker 11: legend Eaven is, I think I'm really looking forward to

823
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 11: to the locker room stories and everything that that the

824
00:44:57,480 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 11: book kind.

825
00:44:58,000 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 2: Of talks to.

826
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 11: So so interested in seeing and seeing where he's come

827
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,319
Speaker 11: from and what's made him the kind of the player

828
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 11: that he is today.

829
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm always interested in sporting biographies because sometimes

830
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 2: they they reveal that actually the cyclist or the runner

831
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,799
Speaker 2: is just very boring, and sometimes they actually reveal a

832
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 2: lot more about what was going in where someone really

833
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 2: comes from. Some of the stories about people as a

834
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 2: young person, you suddenly see where the drive really comes from.

835
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 11: Yeah, And I think they're also stories about leadership often

836
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:31,800
Speaker 11: and teamwork and kind of the values and the culture

837
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 11: that that makes great sporting teams what they are, and

838
00:45:35,680 --> 00:45:37,719
Speaker 11: the spring Box are for me, kind of the best

839
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:41,479
Speaker 11: example of that. So I think it's very much more

840
00:45:41,760 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 11: than than a story about sport. It's the characters that

841
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 11: that kind of that the people, the people encounter along

842
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 11: the way and how and our teammates build legacies. And

843
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 11: I think the spring Box are just the best example

844
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 11: of that. And I think Edman is one of the

845
00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 11: kind of the greats. So so it knows as you say,

846
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 11: it was selected a few a few weeks ago that

847
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 11: I think the story is still still brilliant and and

848
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 11: I think it kind of you'll probably understand a lot.

849
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:11,880
Speaker 2: More about him once once you read it. Yeah, No,

850
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,800
Speaker 2: I mean interesting. And the thing about player rugby players

851
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 2: is you is you. You hear them speak sometimes, but

852
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 2: you don't really get under their skin because what they

853
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 2: do isn't about that. It's about playing the game. Something

854
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 2: a little different. The Art of Uncertainty. David Spiegelhalter is

855
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:30,319
Speaker 2: the author, don't you an actory? I mean, there isn't

856
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 2: uncertainty something you don't really like.

857
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 11: Yeah, I'm an actory bar by training. That's why the

858
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 11: book immediately appeal to me. You know, I think the

859
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:42,320
Speaker 11: the sort of the theory that that you need to understand,

860
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 11: manage and and really kind of interpret risk and how

861
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:49,800
Speaker 11: you do that is something that you know has immediate

862
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 11: immediate appeal. And how you incorporate that into everyday practice,

863
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:56,880
Speaker 11: And that's really what the book is very much about.

864
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 11: It's how we use numbers and and not kind of

865
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:07,200
Speaker 11: necessarily just adjectives to quantify uncertainty. And that's the you know,

866
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:10,239
Speaker 11: that's that's that I think is very much what actualis do.

867
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,799
Speaker 11: So so a book that that that almost feels like

868
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 11: it was written for for the profession in in in

869
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:21,600
Speaker 11: many senses, but but I get to read it on

870
00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:23,839
Speaker 11: the beach and it looks pretty normal, so I think,

871
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:24,880
Speaker 11: hopefully that'll be great.

872
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 2: It's so interesting just as a listen to you talk

873
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 2: about it. We seem to be living in an era

874
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:33,240
Speaker 2: of much uncertainty, and yet an era with more data

875
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 2: than ever before. And you'll think the more data we have,

876
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:38,960
Speaker 2: the more certain we are. But actually we're in quite

877
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 2: an uncertain era. And isn't that interesting.

878
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 11: Yeah, so that I mean, we we're looking, we're living

879
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 11: in in really really uncertain times. What the book talks

880
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 11: to is the theory of kind of Bayesian statistics, where

881
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:55,360
Speaker 11: where you update what you know based on the information

882
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 11: that becomes available. And and that's that that I think,

883
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:00,280
Speaker 11: you know, in in the world in which which certainly

884
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:04,279
Speaker 11: we operate in Discovery, is exactly aligned to our kind

885
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 11: of culture and values that we will debate things time

886
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 11: and time again and and as new data emerges kind

887
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 11: of update the decisions and our way of thinking. And

888
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 11: so you know, I think this is very much in

889
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 11: line with that. And then from from something more different,

890
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 11: the Optimists by T. Hagey Optimism in an uncertain world.

891
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:31,200
Speaker 11: So this is this is I think, hopefully exactly what

892
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:34,399
Speaker 11: what our culture is about at at Discovery kind of.

893
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 2: The the the the the.

894
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:42,240
Speaker 11: Optimistic outlook on life and kind of understanding and identifying opportunities,

895
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 11: and that requires real optimism in many respects. The book

896
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:50,600
Speaker 11: here is is very much about the the the story

897
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 11: of of of of open Ai and Sam Altman and

898
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 11: the kind of the vision that he had for four

899
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:02,279
Speaker 11: four aar. So so think you know, it's timely, but

900
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 11: I think The title itself was what appealed to me.

901
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 11: That it could have been almost about anything, but but

902
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 11: seeing the optimist and and and it just immediately resonated.

903
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:14,600
Speaker 11: And the fact that it that it talks to to

904
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:18,400
Speaker 11: something which is which is I guess so so topical

905
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:21,759
Speaker 11: at this point in time, is immediately immediately brilliant. Were

906
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 11: you optimistic about A. I mean, some people are very

907
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:26,279
Speaker 11: pessimistic about it. They see literally the end of the

908
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:28,280
Speaker 11: world as we know it. I think I think that

909
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:32,080
Speaker 11: that I am optimistic. I see the opportunities in in

910
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:34,880
Speaker 11: what AI is doing for us every single day, and

911
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 11: how we applying it, and and what it's doing for

912
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:41,320
Speaker 11: for kind of our business and our clients and and

913
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 11: and I think you know, they're they're obviously our risks,

914
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:47,399
Speaker 11: and there's kind of moral and ethical dilemmas that come

915
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:50,360
Speaker 11: into all of the different aspects of of AI, but

916
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 11: the opportunity that it represents is just dramatic and and

917
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:59,359
Speaker 11: so and so you know, from that perspective, I'm incredibly optimistic.

918
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:03,240
Speaker 2: Strong gra Brene Brown. I hope I've correct I've pronounced

919
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 2: that correctly. But this is technically about leadership entirely.

920
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 11: And and you know, I try and try and build

921
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:13,920
Speaker 11: in a few a few kind of leadership and and

922
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:17,920
Speaker 11: and you know, sort of almost I suppose personal books

923
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 11: in a sense that that are there to to really

924
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:25,760
Speaker 11: stimulate thought amongst our leadership team and our colleagues.

925
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:27,319
Speaker 2: That that I do give these books too.

926
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 11: But this one is really is really I think, you know,

927
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:33,959
Speaker 11: interesting in the sense that it talks to It talks

928
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 11: to the the the ability to learn and unlearned continuously,

929
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 11: and the ability to to really kind of stick your

930
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:44,800
Speaker 11: principles and be resilient. And I think, you know, in

931
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:49,880
Speaker 11: the current world where where principles and integrity are so important,

932
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 11: you know, finding that strong ground I think is absolutely

933
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:55,520
Speaker 11: absolutely crucial. And you know, it's something that that I

934
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:57,280
Speaker 11: thought is is really really relevant.

935
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 2: There's a new book by Bill Gates of all people,

936
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:05,320
Speaker 2: source Code My Beginnings. And I've always I've always thought,

937
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 2: you know, there's some people who ready seem to hate

938
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:09,359
Speaker 2: Bill Gates. I always had the feeling that he was

939
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 2: more interested in what he was doing than just making money.

940
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 2: Not everyone is like that, especially in that world, but

941
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:18,360
Speaker 2: he was just interested in trying to make it all work.

942
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:21,040
Speaker 11: Yeah, So, I mean, this book is interesting in the

943
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 11: sense that it's the first of a trilogy that he's

944
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 11: writing on his his his his.

945
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:28,000
Speaker 2: Life stories, getting his version of history in eh.

946
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:29,880
Speaker 11: So he's he's kind of writing it the way he

947
00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:33,240
Speaker 11: wants it to be, to be remembered. I guess his

948
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 11: his full legacy. But but those early days must have

949
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 11: been just so interesting. You know, they were literally building

950
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:41,640
Speaker 11: the Internet in a sense, and you know, he was

951
00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:43,440
Speaker 11: one of the you know, he was at that kind

952
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 11: of full crum of of of the beginning of technology

953
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 11: as as we know it. So, you know, I think

954
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:54,400
Speaker 11: that the stories are well known of the start of Microsoft,

955
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 11: but I think this goes right back even before before that.

956
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:00,359
Speaker 11: And so you know, I think, I think in order

957
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:05,000
Speaker 11: to to really understand I think technology today, it's you know,

958
00:52:05,080 --> 00:52:08,359
Speaker 11: it will be really interesting to see the real kind

959
00:52:08,360 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 11: of beginnings of of Microsoft and and Bill Gates's early days.

960
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:14,800
Speaker 11: And that's that's what this book is is all about.

961
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 11: You know, Microsoft today is so ubiquitous. Yeah, virtually everything

962
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:23,720
Speaker 11: we do is in some way connected to Microsoft itself.

963
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:26,879
Speaker 11: And I think, you know, you can't whatever you think

964
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:29,879
Speaker 11: about Bill Gates. You know, He's defined a lot of

965
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:32,239
Speaker 11: what we what we do today. He's made control all

966
00:52:32,320 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 11: delete part of popular culture. I mean, you know what

967
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:38,799
Speaker 11: it means copystar dot star, and you know, those those

968
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 11: ms dos codes are still with us today.

969
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:45,919
Speaker 2: And and you know, I think the fact that.

970
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:48,759
Speaker 11: He's you know, he's branched out way beyond that makes

971
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:53,040
Speaker 11: it even more interesting. And and the organization itself has,

972
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 11: you know, has outlived certainly what what he started and

973
00:52:57,120 --> 00:52:59,000
Speaker 11: is thriving today. And so I think, you know, the

974
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:02,680
Speaker 11: kind of the foundation that we built were quite remarkable,

975
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 11: and so I think the kind of the lens on

976
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 11: the beginnings is going to be really really interesting.

977
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:11,960
Speaker 2: Helton, I'm a little nervous about your next choice. It's

978
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:14,400
Speaker 2: by an author called Andrew Ross Sorkin, and it's just

979
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:17,759
Speaker 2: a series of numbers. It's nineteen twenty nine is the

980
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 2: name of the book. There's been a lot of sort

981
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:21,799
Speaker 2: of hints, and you know, if you sort of go

982
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:24,800
Speaker 2: onto writers' markets and search of bubble, you're going to

983
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 2: find that word quite a lot at the moment. The

984
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:30,960
Speaker 2: economists too, why particularly nineteen twenty nine in the Wall

985
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:31,920
Speaker 2: Street crash.

986
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 11: So I think you know, we as you say, you know,

987
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:39,320
Speaker 11: the kind of the Magnificent seven and tulips and bubbles,

988
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:44,400
Speaker 11: and the kind of the thematic around around the just the

989
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:48,560
Speaker 11: economic environment and financial environment in which we living is

990
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:53,719
Speaker 11: kind of the analogue to nineteen twenty nine is just

991
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:57,800
Speaker 11: uncanny in many many respects. And so you know, when

992
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 11: I saw the book, you know, the parallels to the

993
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 11: kind of the modern the modern era that we that

994
00:54:03,560 --> 00:54:07,120
Speaker 11: we're living in, I just I just are just incredible.

995
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 11: And and if you read too Big to Fail, then

996
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 11: you know, I suppose the style is is really really

997
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 11: appealing and resonates, and so it's about the storytelling and

998
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 11: the characters and the way that he really draws them out,

999
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 11: which is why why it actually appealed to me more

1000
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 11: so than kind of trying to relive and relearn the

1001
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:32,239
Speaker 11: lessons of nineteen twenty and one. That that will be

1002
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:35,480
Speaker 11: interesting in itself, but I think the you know, just

1003
00:54:35,520 --> 00:54:38,879
Speaker 11: the natural, the natural style of of Andrew Sorkin is

1004
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:41,239
Speaker 11: is really really interesting, and so I'm looking forward to

1005
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:41,719
Speaker 11: reading it.

1006
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:45,240
Speaker 2: Winners Cursed by Richard tay Levis is the twenty twenty

1007
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 2: five version. It says, yeah, he won a Nobel Prize

1008
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:52,759
Speaker 2: for it, so I presume that is pretty good.

1009
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:57,520
Speaker 11: So the original one is is one of my absolute favorites.

1010
00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:01,400
Speaker 11: And I've read it, you know, few times. This has

1011
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:05,040
Speaker 11: been updated with with a lot more kind of case

1012
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:07,239
Speaker 11: studies and modern parallels.

1013
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:10,400
Speaker 2: It. He won the Nobel.

1014
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:12,680
Speaker 11: Prize for it, as you as you say, for for

1015
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:15,680
Speaker 11: a lot of the theories, in particular things like loss

1016
00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:18,360
Speaker 11: of version, which which he studied, in which we apply

1017
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:22,160
Speaker 11: every day in in in our in our organization, the

1018
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:24,640
Speaker 11: way that we design structures, and the kind of like

1019
00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:28,560
Speaker 11: the the the concept of a nudge, and and how

1020
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 11: we and how we encourage people to do things that

1021
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:34,480
Speaker 11: are not necessarily completely rational but are good for them

1022
00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:37,640
Speaker 11: in certainly in the long term. Is something that you

1023
00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:39,680
Speaker 11: know is fundamental to what we do with discovery, whether

1024
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 11: it's in health or driving or money. This is this

1025
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:44,680
Speaker 11: is kind of a lot of what our business has

1026
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:49,040
Speaker 11: been built on. And and so you know, the theory

1027
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:51,759
Speaker 11: of being a little bit nudgy and and and that

1028
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:55,560
Speaker 11: concept is in many respects kind of almost care to

1029
00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:59,560
Speaker 11: what we are that and so you know, Winner's Curse

1030
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 11: is now updated. It's almost like an encyclopedia for for

1031
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:09,400
Speaker 11: for behavioral economy economists, and and so you know, I

1032
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:11,000
Speaker 11: think you know, it's going to be really, really.

1033
00:56:10,840 --> 00:56:13,040
Speaker 2: Interesting trying not to look at my sports watch as

1034
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:17,960
Speaker 2: you talk the book dirt Bag Billionaire, this is actually

1035
00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:20,200
Speaker 2: about fast fashion. I don't know about you, but I'm

1036
00:56:20,239 --> 00:56:23,920
Speaker 2: no expert, I presume. I mean, this is one of

1037
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:26,960
Speaker 2: the things that that's been the big story of the

1038
00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:28,880
Speaker 2: last few years is how fashion has changed.

1039
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:32,640
Speaker 11: So so this is actually almost the antithesis of fast

1040
00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:36,440
Speaker 11: fashion in many aspects. It's about the the story of Patagonia,

1041
00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:40,840
Speaker 11: which is a which is a fashion brand, as you say,

1042
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:45,280
Speaker 11: but it comes with a lifetime guarantee, so if anything,

1043
00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:47,640
Speaker 11: if anything goes wrong with it, they replace it.

1044
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:49,279
Speaker 2: And you know, if you think.

1045
00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:53,280
Speaker 11: About fashion today, it's almost the antithesis. It is a focus,

1046
00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:56,880
Speaker 11: in an intense focus on on the environment and very

1047
00:56:56,960 --> 00:57:00,600
Speaker 11: much on quality and in building quality. Soil love the brand,

1048
00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:05,759
Speaker 11: I love the concept that that represents, and and the

1049
00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:11,040
Speaker 11: the the the the protagonist, the founder of of Patagonia,

1050
00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:16,440
Speaker 11: which is the biography of of of Dirtbag Billionaire. Is

1051
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:19,520
Speaker 11: is kind of almost the fashion equivalent of shared value,

1052
00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:22,720
Speaker 11: kind of building an organization that that that is that

1053
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 11: is good for all the stakeholders with a lifetime guarantee,

1054
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:29,760
Speaker 11: which you know, in today's modern era is almost unheard of.

1055
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:32,960
Speaker 11: So so I think it's an absolutely brilliant story, a

1056
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:34,160
Speaker 11: brilliant brand.

1057
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:37,800
Speaker 2: And and uh and and so I think, you know,

1058
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:39,880
Speaker 2: the kind of the concept really does resonate.

1059
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:40,720
Speaker 9: Uh.

1060
00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:42,640
Speaker 2: The spring box I did see coming. I realized that

1061
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:45,520
Speaker 2: you're a banker by profession and actually by training. I

1062
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:48,800
Speaker 2: did not see a love story and songs John and Paul.

1063
00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:51,360
Speaker 2: This is about the Beatles, John Lennon and Paul McCartney.

1064
00:57:51,880 --> 00:57:55,360
Speaker 11: So I love the Beatles, I've like I've got a

1065
00:57:55,480 --> 00:58:00,080
Speaker 11: I've loved music, and I listened to records of a

1066
00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 11: listen to LPs and and kind of love the the

1067
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:08,880
Speaker 11: the the analog of of of a record player. And

1068
00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:10,760
Speaker 11: and this book is quite unique in a sense in

1069
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:15,800
Speaker 11: that all of the chapters are are are named after

1070
00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:19,520
Speaker 11: the song titles in chronological order, and it tracks the

1071
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:22,720
Speaker 11: sort of the story of the Beatles, and in particular

1072
00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:28,280
Speaker 11: Lennon and McCartney, who wrote all of the all of

1073
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:32,040
Speaker 11: the songs, and and tracks their their their kind of

1074
00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:35,920
Speaker 11: the evolution through the actual titles and chapter by chapter.

1075
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:39,000
Speaker 11: So so it's a it's a it's a brilliant kind

1076
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:42,200
Speaker 11: of concept. And and the fact that they've managed to

1077
00:58:42,240 --> 00:58:43,960
Speaker 11: actually get it exactly right.

1078
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:46,960
Speaker 2: Is is phenomenal.

1079
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:50,760
Speaker 11: It's like really creative and and I think you know

1080
00:58:50,800 --> 00:58:52,680
Speaker 11: you'll kind of think of the songs and play them

1081
00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:54,960
Speaker 11: and in your mind as you read the book.

1082
00:58:55,520 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 2: And Types of Wealth sorry, Five Types of Wealth by

1083
00:58:58,160 --> 00:58:59,000
Speaker 2: the Heel Bloom.

1084
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:02,840
Speaker 11: So so we actually hosted a conference where where Sahilblum

1085
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 11: presented and I think the book is sold over six

1086
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:11,480
Speaker 11: hundred thousand copies over the course of this year already.

1087
00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:15,520
Speaker 11: And the Five Taps of Wealth really talks to kind

1088
00:59:15,520 --> 00:59:19,360
Speaker 11: of the multi dimensional nature of our lives and how

1089
00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:22,320
Speaker 11: you know, the kind of the it's not just about money,

1090
00:59:22,560 --> 00:59:25,200
Speaker 11: it's very much about health, it's about time. Those are

1091
00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:28,040
Speaker 11: probably the two things that when you think about what

1092
00:59:28,120 --> 00:59:31,600
Speaker 11: are most important, really come to the fore. And he

1093
00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:36,040
Speaker 11: gives a really interesting tool set for how you how

1094
00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:39,080
Speaker 11: you can prioritize what really is important and how you

1095
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:43,000
Speaker 11: get that you know the concept of not necessarily balance

1096
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:45,840
Speaker 11: per se, but focus on the things that are going

1097
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:48,240
Speaker 11: to be really really important helpon.

1098
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:50,120
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for coming in and sharing this with us.

1099
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:52,600
Speaker 2: I really appreciated lots of ideas to think about in

1100
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:55,960
Speaker 2: those book titles. Hilton Kellner is the CEO at Discovery

1101
00:59:56,000 --> 00:59:58,320
Speaker 2: Bank on The Money Show, Her.

1102
00:59:58,280 --> 01:00:01,160
Speaker 1: Money Show, How I'm Take My Money.

1103
01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:04,080
Speaker 2: Twenty four minutes now to eight the time. Well, from

1104
01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:06,439
Speaker 2: time to time you'll hear people on the radio, watch

1105
01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:09,200
Speaker 2: them on TV, and not be entirely sure how they

1106
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:12,720
Speaker 2: got there. Often as entertainers, it'll be people who present sport,

1107
01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:15,960
Speaker 2: for example. But one of the groups of people that

1108
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:19,000
Speaker 2: we see very often on our screens, that we hear

1109
01:00:19,160 --> 01:00:21,760
Speaker 2: very often on our radios are a group of people

1110
01:00:21,760 --> 01:00:24,400
Speaker 2: who are often referred to as political analysts. Most of

1111
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:27,280
Speaker 2: them are academics, some of them have come from journalism

1112
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:30,360
Speaker 2: and moved into sort of becoming a political analyst. And

1113
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:32,480
Speaker 2: I thought it would be interesting to just trace the

1114
01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:35,880
Speaker 2: story of one of these people to better understand their career.

1115
01:00:36,360 --> 01:00:38,880
Speaker 2: And someone I've spoken to for many years, in fact,

1116
01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:42,080
Speaker 2: I think back from twenty twelve is doctor Ralph Mattercha.

1117
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:44,720
Speaker 2: He's the analyst, he does many other things. He is

1118
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:47,520
Speaker 2: also a farmer and he joins us now, Ralph, good evening,

1119
01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:49,160
Speaker 2: It's wonderful to talk to you, and thank you for

1120
01:00:49,320 --> 01:00:50,920
Speaker 2: taking the time to talk to us.

1121
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:54,240
Speaker 5: Good evening, Stephen, then good even into seven or two. Family,

1122
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:56,120
Speaker 5: is a pleasure to be tuk in to you, such

1123
01:00:56,120 --> 01:00:57,560
Speaker 5: a pleasure to collect security.

1124
01:00:58,320 --> 01:01:01,400
Speaker 2: We hear you discussing. That's kind of how we see

1125
01:01:01,440 --> 01:01:04,520
Speaker 2: and hear you most of the time, often related to economics.

1126
01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:07,560
Speaker 2: I know many people in this country have been born

1127
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:10,920
Speaker 2: into politics. Was it something you were born into? Was

1128
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:12,760
Speaker 2: it something you were thinking about as a young child,

1129
01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:14,000
Speaker 2: or did the interest come later?

1130
01:01:15,040 --> 01:01:18,480
Speaker 5: I was quite curious even the interest came later. I

1131
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:22,880
Speaker 5: was trained in politics, university, trained in law, trained in

1132
01:01:22,920 --> 01:01:26,120
Speaker 5: economic history, but I was so curious. I remember when

1133
01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:28,360
Speaker 5: I did my undergrad I spent a lot of time

1134
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:32,640
Speaker 5: also reading newspapers, and I had professors who encouraged me

1135
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:35,600
Speaker 5: to read quite a lot of current affairs. So I've

1136
01:01:35,640 --> 01:01:41,520
Speaker 5: always gravitated towards the politics international relations, but most importantly

1137
01:01:41,920 --> 01:01:46,000
Speaker 5: on how it affected or relate to daily living experience

1138
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:50,000
Speaker 5: for most people. So I came through a lot through

1139
01:01:50,040 --> 01:01:54,960
Speaker 5: academia and my earlier publications. Before I even started writing

1140
01:01:55,000 --> 01:01:58,800
Speaker 5: for newspapers, I was publishing in academic journals, contributing chapters,

1141
01:01:59,360 --> 01:02:04,880
Speaker 5: and so you mentioned the group that moved from academia

1142
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:10,200
Speaker 5: into political analysis work. For me, I've merged the two

1143
01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:13,400
Speaker 5: together because I still existed a lot with an academia

1144
01:02:13,440 --> 01:02:19,600
Speaker 5: where a year in, year out, I published for academic journals, books,

1145
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:23,360
Speaker 5: publications such as chapters and so forth, and I engage

1146
01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:26,600
Speaker 5: with academics. I enjoy reading quite a lot. So I

1147
01:02:26,680 --> 01:02:30,280
Speaker 5: found myself one day being referred to as political analysis. Said, well,

1148
01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:33,080
Speaker 5: that's not inaccurate. It's part of what I do.

1149
01:02:33,840 --> 01:02:36,000
Speaker 2: I mean, I know some people really don't like the

1150
01:02:36,120 --> 01:02:40,440
Speaker 2: phrase political analyst, but you know, an economist is an

1151
01:02:40,480 --> 01:02:44,000
Speaker 2: economics analyst, but we can't call you a politician. Are

1152
01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:45,840
Speaker 2: you comfortable with the term? I mean, I've thought for

1153
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:49,040
Speaker 2: many years is there a better term? But actually what

1154
01:02:49,200 --> 01:02:51,800
Speaker 2: you are doing when you come on the radio is

1155
01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:55,160
Speaker 2: your analyzing politics. I don't know for a better term.

1156
01:02:56,200 --> 01:02:58,760
Speaker 5: I mean, Stephen, I'm quite comfortable with the term. And

1157
01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:02,120
Speaker 5: I've also looked at how this has a manage as

1158
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:05,640
Speaker 5: this has evolved as a profession over a period of time.

1159
01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:08,880
Speaker 5: I mean, you've seen people mostly who will be rooted

1160
01:03:08,880 --> 01:03:12,480
Speaker 5: in academia, will be rooted in journalism, in economics, but

1161
01:03:12,560 --> 01:03:16,760
Speaker 5: they government break down current affairs to talk about implications

1162
01:03:16,800 --> 01:03:20,240
Speaker 5: on on on on on policy making and thereof. So

1163
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:24,200
Speaker 5: I'm quite comfortable with it. Actually, I've been mistaken to

1164
01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:27,240
Speaker 5: being a politician that I always correct to say, No,

1165
01:03:27,640 --> 01:03:31,200
Speaker 5: I'm not a practitioner. Politicians have people who you know,

1166
01:03:31,240 --> 01:03:33,840
Speaker 5: they go to office, they get elected, and I don't

1167
01:03:33,920 --> 01:03:35,960
Speaker 5: do that. What I do is to look at the

1168
01:03:36,040 --> 01:03:39,880
Speaker 5: issues and to look at the broader environment within which

1169
01:03:39,920 --> 01:03:43,440
Speaker 5: actors that we call referred to as politicians or political

1170
01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:47,000
Speaker 5: leaders they make decisions, and what criteria do they use

1171
01:03:47,080 --> 01:03:50,240
Speaker 5: thereof So it's it's it's not a curtain drive way.

1172
01:03:50,240 --> 01:03:53,240
Speaker 5: You can say there is a pure separation, but I

1173
01:03:53,280 --> 01:03:57,800
Speaker 5: always believe Stuven that it's always better to get a

1174
01:03:57,800 --> 01:04:00,520
Speaker 5: sense of the concept. That's what we learn in academia,

1175
01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:03,400
Speaker 5: and then we tried to apply them on current affairs

1176
01:04:03,440 --> 01:04:04,800
Speaker 5: and public policy.

1177
01:04:04,360 --> 01:04:07,040
Speaker 2: Discoss Where were you growing up? And I feel I've

1178
01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:08,720
Speaker 2: known you for so long and I don't think I've

1179
01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:10,920
Speaker 2: ever asked you that question. What kind of community were

1180
01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:12,440
Speaker 2: you growing up in?

1181
01:04:12,440 --> 01:04:15,640
Speaker 5: Interestingly, I grew up within a farming community in an

1182
01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:19,400
Speaker 5: area oddly named my Darling Village. And I say oddly

1183
01:04:19,480 --> 01:04:22,440
Speaker 5: named because every time I researd to this, you know,

1184
01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:25,200
Speaker 5: you always your wife you say I'm going to my Darling.

1185
01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:27,400
Speaker 5: The friends might say, hey, where are you going? Because

1186
01:04:27,400 --> 01:04:29,800
Speaker 5: that's supposed to be your dalling right here. But I

1187
01:04:29,800 --> 01:04:33,080
Speaker 5: grew up in this area. It is in Snovarana, which

1188
01:04:33,160 --> 01:04:36,200
Speaker 5: is to be called Baham area. And interestingly, Steven, I

1189
01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:39,040
Speaker 5: did my metric here in the rural high school here,

1190
01:04:39,480 --> 01:04:42,480
Speaker 5: and I've been part of the community. Every time I

1191
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:46,680
Speaker 5: would venture in our countries, travel study, I always have

1192
01:04:47,480 --> 01:04:51,040
Speaker 5: the community in mind. I always tried to relate my store,

1193
01:04:51,160 --> 01:04:54,920
Speaker 5: my research back to the community where I grew up.

1194
01:04:54,960 --> 01:04:58,480
Speaker 5: I mean, I've been to many countries, but I believe

1195
01:04:58,600 --> 01:05:01,600
Speaker 5: this is one of the best community among which to leave.

1196
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:05,520
Speaker 2: To go from there, obviously you would have had to

1197
01:05:05,520 --> 01:05:07,919
Speaker 2: do quite well in metric to get into university. There's

1198
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:10,520
Speaker 2: always a big fight for places. How difficult was that?

1199
01:05:11,680 --> 01:05:14,680
Speaker 5: I mean, the teachers were very supportive. I was quite ambitious,

1200
01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:18,840
Speaker 5: even young. I left this place when I finished my

1201
01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:23,720
Speaker 5: metric or seventeen, and then fortunate enough I got admitted

1202
01:05:23,760 --> 01:05:26,280
Speaker 5: to Vets University and I never looked back. That's when

1203
01:05:26,280 --> 01:05:29,120
Speaker 5: I did my undergrade, I did my honors, I did

1204
01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:32,720
Speaker 5: my map. That's privileged enough to even go study overseas

1205
01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:36,400
Speaker 5: and and and do that. So often when I see

1206
01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:38,840
Speaker 5: younger people here in the community, some of them they

1207
01:05:38,880 --> 01:05:42,640
Speaker 5: don't believe I studied here, and their parents would remind

1208
01:05:42,680 --> 01:05:44,520
Speaker 5: them that no used to study. I used to go

1209
01:05:44,600 --> 01:05:47,320
Speaker 5: to home and eat at home during lunch break at

1210
01:05:47,320 --> 01:05:51,160
Speaker 5: school and so forth. So it's it's a story where

1211
01:05:51,560 --> 01:05:54,440
Speaker 5: you know, you come around and you talk to the

1212
01:05:54,520 --> 01:05:57,760
Speaker 5: younger ones, saying to them that it doesn't matter where,

1213
01:05:58,200 --> 01:06:01,120
Speaker 5: you can always make it. And Louis tried to show.

1214
01:06:01,240 --> 01:06:07,520
Speaker 5: And most interestingly, when I go out to interactive people elsewhere,

1215
01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:10,920
Speaker 5: I bring the case study of where where I grew up,

1216
01:06:10,960 --> 01:06:15,440
Speaker 5: this village. It's always fascinating. It's a very strong agricultural community.

1217
01:06:15,680 --> 01:06:19,800
Speaker 5: I remember, Steven, before I went to university, during in

1218
01:06:19,880 --> 01:06:23,480
Speaker 5: Genuary February, I always said to plow the field before

1219
01:06:23,760 --> 01:06:27,040
Speaker 5: the yekusta. My grandfather insisted that, hey, you've got to

1220
01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:30,880
Speaker 5: plow the sail to usually plow sogham here, cultivate sogam

1221
01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:34,520
Speaker 5: and so forth. So it has always been part of me,

1222
01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:38,120
Speaker 5: and coming back and mingling with the community is always

1223
01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:39,040
Speaker 5: the best feeling here.

1224
01:06:39,560 --> 01:06:43,640
Speaker 2: Quite quite a thing to go from plowing to to

1225
01:06:43,800 --> 01:06:46,480
Speaker 2: sort of it's university, and I mean, you might strangely

1226
01:06:46,520 --> 01:06:49,439
Speaker 2: have had more in common with some you know, other

1227
01:06:49,480 --> 01:06:51,400
Speaker 2: young men growing up on farms in the Free State

1228
01:06:51,440 --> 01:06:53,400
Speaker 2: and many other people. I mean, it's a very interesting

1229
01:06:53,440 --> 01:06:55,600
Speaker 2: journey from from the village to the city.

1230
01:06:56,680 --> 01:06:57,240
Speaker 5: Very interesting.

1231
01:06:57,240 --> 01:06:57,560
Speaker 2: Seven.

1232
01:06:57,560 --> 01:06:59,720
Speaker 5: I'll tell you what was the most shocking thing. I

1233
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:02,560
Speaker 5: never said. This is the swimming pool at that when

1234
01:07:02,600 --> 01:07:04,440
Speaker 5: I did my first day in nineteen ninety five, and

1235
01:07:04,520 --> 01:07:07,120
Speaker 5: I said, what a huge pool. How did disciple manage

1236
01:07:07,160 --> 01:07:08,720
Speaker 5: to have so much water? I have been put in

1237
01:07:08,720 --> 01:07:11,640
Speaker 5: a pool like this. I mean, I got just fascinating.

1238
01:07:12,080 --> 01:07:15,160
Speaker 5: And you know, it goes quite a huge, big journey

1239
01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:20,240
Speaker 5: and having to adapt to the medium and having to

1240
01:07:20,440 --> 01:07:23,120
Speaker 5: even take extra classes to cope with the way of

1241
01:07:23,160 --> 01:07:25,960
Speaker 5: teaching the regardless or you're teaching at the university. But

1242
01:07:26,000 --> 01:07:29,840
Speaker 5: I can say it's quite doable with determination. It's quite durable,

1243
01:07:30,040 --> 01:07:34,560
Speaker 5: and once you can make that across that bridge, you

1244
01:07:34,680 --> 01:07:37,680
Speaker 5: become quite unstapable as to how far you can go

1245
01:07:37,760 --> 01:07:40,320
Speaker 5: in learning. You know, you learn more and more. And

1246
01:07:40,360 --> 01:07:43,240
Speaker 5: I think it is the discipline of plowing. You know,

1247
01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:46,400
Speaker 5: we grew up looking after cattle, plowing golds and everything.

1248
01:07:46,640 --> 01:07:48,920
Speaker 5: So when I went to the university, it was more like, Okay,

1249
01:07:48,960 --> 01:07:51,880
Speaker 5: you're just gonna read this book from cover to cover,

1250
01:07:52,240 --> 01:07:54,760
Speaker 5: So that sense of discipline continued, and I think that's

1251
01:07:54,800 --> 01:07:57,520
Speaker 5: what sustained my studies throughout.

1252
01:07:58,480 --> 01:08:01,600
Speaker 2: You worked in government, the National Treasury, if I remember,

1253
01:08:01,640 --> 01:08:05,320
Speaker 2: how did you find that experience? Because I often think

1254
01:08:05,360 --> 01:08:08,240
Speaker 2: that some people who talk about government, you get a

1255
01:08:08,240 --> 01:08:10,920
Speaker 2: sense they really do understand it because they've been within it,

1256
01:08:11,280 --> 01:08:13,200
Speaker 2: and that I've often found is very valuable.

1257
01:08:14,160 --> 01:08:17,040
Speaker 5: It was a very interesting experience. I mean before I

1258
01:08:17,040 --> 01:08:19,560
Speaker 5: work the Treasury, I was an elector at University of

1259
01:08:19,600 --> 01:08:22,320
Speaker 5: the Western Cape a lecture there for two years, and

1260
01:08:22,640 --> 01:08:24,880
Speaker 5: I applied for a job at Treasury. You can imagine

1261
01:08:24,920 --> 01:08:28,160
Speaker 5: this sting. And I was not the hardcore economist. I

1262
01:08:28,320 --> 01:08:32,360
Speaker 5: was more like economic history, studied finance and so forth.

1263
01:08:32,800 --> 01:08:35,160
Speaker 5: And I got a job at National Treasury at the

1264
01:08:35,720 --> 01:08:38,479
Speaker 5: as a senior policy on my list within the budget office.

1265
01:08:38,680 --> 01:08:42,400
Speaker 5: That's why we were responsible for doing national budgets. We

1266
01:08:42,479 --> 01:08:46,640
Speaker 5: will compile that big book called Estimated National Expenditure. That

1267
01:08:46,840 --> 01:08:49,960
Speaker 5: was very interesting because it also told me that I

1268
01:08:50,040 --> 01:08:53,080
Speaker 5: needed to read more about economics and finance. I don't

1269
01:08:53,120 --> 01:08:55,479
Speaker 5: necessarily have to go and get a certificate, but I

1270
01:08:55,520 --> 01:08:58,160
Speaker 5: had to read more. Luckily, when I was a Treasury

1271
01:08:58,240 --> 01:09:02,040
Speaker 5: I took out courses on fighting analysis called legal analysis,

1272
01:09:02,080 --> 01:09:04,719
Speaker 5: and I just saw it as a instead of coming

1273
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:08,719
Speaker 5: and thinking that I had an impediment, I rather looked

1274
01:09:08,720 --> 01:09:11,559
Speaker 5: at this as an opportunity to learn more and our

1275
01:09:11,640 --> 01:09:15,439
Speaker 5: work within within within National Treasure. From there, I've got

1276
01:09:15,520 --> 01:09:19,960
Speaker 5: to understand concepts such as bonds, sixth income assets, and

1277
01:09:20,040 --> 01:09:22,400
Speaker 5: believe me, I once worked for a bank for about

1278
01:09:22,439 --> 01:09:25,280
Speaker 5: six months and so forth where I was dealing with

1279
01:09:25,400 --> 01:09:28,880
Speaker 5: the providing analysis for the six income asset groups. So

1280
01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:34,920
Speaker 5: versatility and multidisciplinary approach to studying is what I enjoyed

1281
01:09:34,920 --> 01:09:37,840
Speaker 5: the most. I quickly moved from one area to the

1282
01:09:37,880 --> 01:09:41,200
Speaker 5: other without losing the previous are of interest.

1283
01:09:42,800 --> 01:09:44,320
Speaker 2: I did say to you that I was going to

1284
01:09:44,320 --> 01:09:45,960
Speaker 2: ask you one or two questions about where we are

1285
01:09:46,000 --> 01:09:48,400
Speaker 2: at the moment, because there's so much that's fascinating. But

1286
01:09:48,720 --> 01:09:52,000
Speaker 2: I mean, our politics is changing so fundamentally. The ANC's

1287
01:09:52,080 --> 01:09:56,320
Speaker 2: National General Council started today. There was a time when

1288
01:09:56,360 --> 01:09:59,479
Speaker 2: that's all everybody would be talking about, even the money show.

1289
01:09:59,800 --> 01:10:03,040
Speaker 2: And now I just get a sense that people don't

1290
01:10:03,040 --> 01:10:05,719
Speaker 2: take the ANC nearly as seriously as they did because

1291
01:10:06,040 --> 01:10:08,160
Speaker 2: of what happened in the elections, because of the longer

1292
01:10:08,240 --> 01:10:11,040
Speaker 2: term trend and sort of fracturing in our politics. How

1293
01:10:11,040 --> 01:10:12,080
Speaker 2: do you see things changing?

1294
01:10:13,080 --> 01:10:15,240
Speaker 5: You're right, student. I mean if we look at the

1295
01:10:15,560 --> 01:10:18,840
Speaker 5: basic fact that for a long time we were used

1296
01:10:18,840 --> 01:10:22,000
Speaker 5: to referring to the NC as the ruling party and

1297
01:10:22,040 --> 01:10:25,479
Speaker 5: we have had to change our vocabulary since last year

1298
01:10:25,520 --> 01:10:28,800
Speaker 5: elections whereby the NC is a leader of the coalition,

1299
01:10:29,000 --> 01:10:33,240
Speaker 5: it is governing through a coalition agreement, and that was

1300
01:10:33,840 --> 01:10:36,360
Speaker 5: quite a shortcut. I mean a lot has said to change.

1301
01:10:36,520 --> 01:10:40,760
Speaker 5: Even the NC itself Carizon at times as if it

1302
01:10:40,880 --> 01:10:43,760
Speaker 5: is still the party that makes decisions on its own

1303
01:10:43,920 --> 01:10:47,000
Speaker 5: in government. And when you look at what is happening

1304
01:10:47,080 --> 01:10:50,360
Speaker 5: South Africa's politics is evolving and the NC itself, I

1305
01:10:50,400 --> 01:10:53,400
Speaker 5: also have to give cludit to the NC that there

1306
01:10:53,400 --> 01:10:55,960
Speaker 5: have not been a sole loser during the election, Well

1307
01:10:55,960 --> 01:10:58,720
Speaker 5: they will not consider that we have lost none now

1308
01:10:58,760 --> 01:11:02,759
Speaker 5: that they are no longer running, I mean commanding policy

1309
01:11:02,760 --> 01:11:05,320
Speaker 5: on their own. But I think the party also evolved,

1310
01:11:05,760 --> 01:11:10,000
Speaker 5: is evolving to functioning within the coalition South Africa. You

1311
01:11:10,080 --> 01:11:13,920
Speaker 5: and I we spoke about political fragmentation. South Africa is

1312
01:11:13,960 --> 01:11:18,559
Speaker 5: a multiracial, multi ethnic, multi interest society and we are

1313
01:11:18,600 --> 01:11:22,400
Speaker 5: seeing political parties evolving along those lines. There isn't a

1314
01:11:22,520 --> 01:11:26,280
Speaker 5: single center of power in South Africa. We've got multiplicity

1315
01:11:26,320 --> 01:11:29,120
Speaker 5: of power, of places of power. That is why the

1316
01:11:29,320 --> 01:11:31,680
Speaker 5: NC is no longer the only center of power. Of

1317
01:11:31,680 --> 01:11:35,240
Speaker 5: course it is quite dominant. But now if you paid

1318
01:11:35,280 --> 01:11:39,360
Speaker 5: too much attention toward discipline within the NGC, it might

1319
01:11:39,439 --> 01:11:43,560
Speaker 5: be waste of for your efforts because come next elections,

1320
01:11:43,880 --> 01:11:47,160
Speaker 5: subsequent general elections, the NC might come back with the

1321
01:11:47,360 --> 01:11:50,240
Speaker 5: one percent five percent is their likely. So it is

1322
01:11:50,280 --> 01:11:53,000
Speaker 5: a party that is on the decline, and our attention

1323
01:11:53,560 --> 01:11:57,520
Speaker 5: towards disciplining within the ANC also has to shift proportionately

1324
01:11:57,800 --> 01:12:02,280
Speaker 5: in understanding other parties that are in and contesting power

1325
01:12:02,280 --> 01:12:03,040
Speaker 5: in South Africa.

1326
01:12:03,760 --> 01:12:06,120
Speaker 2: If you look, I mean it's impossible question, Ralph. But

1327
01:12:06,160 --> 01:12:08,160
Speaker 2: on the current trends, if you look at our politics

1328
01:12:08,360 --> 01:12:12,000
Speaker 2: ten years from now twenty thirty five, what do you see?

1329
01:12:12,640 --> 01:12:14,439
Speaker 2: I mean, in my own view, I see a lot

1330
01:12:14,479 --> 01:12:16,679
Speaker 2: more parties. There'll be a lot of churn. Some parties

1331
01:12:16,680 --> 01:12:20,000
Speaker 2: we have now will have disappeared, and I don't know

1332
01:12:20,040 --> 01:12:22,439
Speaker 2: if any one party will have been able to find

1333
01:12:23,000 --> 01:12:26,240
Speaker 2: a way to speak to a diverse set of constituencies.

1334
01:12:27,280 --> 01:12:29,479
Speaker 5: I mean, I'm going to take a risky a student

1335
01:12:29,600 --> 01:12:33,040
Speaker 5: I see more fragmentation, to be honest. And also I

1336
01:12:33,120 --> 01:12:37,200
Speaker 5: see further regionalization of our politics. That's one area that

1337
01:12:37,320 --> 01:12:40,439
Speaker 5: we It's only the Democratic Alliance that has pushed it

1338
01:12:40,560 --> 01:12:44,960
Speaker 5: quite a lot, cementing themselves in the Western Cape. But

1339
01:12:45,040 --> 01:12:47,200
Speaker 5: we're going to see other parties trying to do that.

1340
01:12:47,280 --> 01:12:50,960
Speaker 5: The MK Party, with all their trouble, you can refer

1341
01:12:51,080 --> 01:12:53,880
Speaker 5: to them as an original party, quite dominant in in

1342
01:12:54,000 --> 01:12:57,840
Speaker 5: Tasered and I think we're going to see parties emerging

1343
01:12:57,880 --> 01:13:03,320
Speaker 5: also along interest instead of overarching ideas. I mean, some

1344
01:13:03,360 --> 01:13:06,320
Speaker 5: of the issues that are pressing in Limpopo might not

1345
01:13:06,439 --> 01:13:09,120
Speaker 5: be pressing on a similar on a similar account in

1346
01:13:09,120 --> 01:13:12,680
Speaker 5: in Western Cape or how then for example, So I

1347
01:13:13,120 --> 01:13:16,840
Speaker 5: see what what I call political fragmentation. But it's not

1348
01:13:16,920 --> 01:13:20,280
Speaker 5: an era, it's not something wrong. It's just how our

1349
01:13:20,320 --> 01:13:23,840
Speaker 5: politics is evolving in a manner that the body politics

1350
01:13:23,880 --> 01:13:26,759
Speaker 5: has to shape up in a way that can attend

1351
01:13:26,760 --> 01:13:30,120
Speaker 5: to multiplicity of interest in our society. At the same time,

1352
01:13:30,520 --> 01:13:33,519
Speaker 5: that does not give a picture of a single party

1353
01:13:33,880 --> 01:13:38,280
Speaker 5: for consolidating. And I do not even see the leftist

1354
01:13:38,360 --> 01:13:42,000
Speaker 5: this you quale listening into a single dominant force. I

1355
01:13:42,000 --> 01:13:45,800
Speaker 5: see multiplicity of voices and I think That's one thing

1356
01:13:45,840 --> 01:13:49,960
Speaker 5: that I've always said, student, It's not tragic. It's probably

1357
01:13:50,000 --> 01:13:52,440
Speaker 5: a very interesting evolution of our politics.

1358
01:13:53,439 --> 01:13:57,000
Speaker 2: Ralph, you followed our politics very closely for a long

1359
01:13:57,080 --> 01:14:00,360
Speaker 2: time and in some difficult moments. Have you ever kind

1360
01:14:00,360 --> 01:14:03,440
Speaker 2: of lost hope for South Africa we ever felt unoptimistic

1361
01:14:03,439 --> 01:14:03,960
Speaker 2: about it?

1362
01:14:05,280 --> 01:14:07,400
Speaker 5: Not really, you know, South Africa is this country is

1363
01:14:07,479 --> 01:14:11,000
Speaker 5: even that always on the edge, but just never keeps over.

1364
01:14:11,200 --> 01:14:13,240
Speaker 5: I mean, if you look at what it's depending now

1365
01:14:13,320 --> 01:14:18,640
Speaker 5: with the crisis around governance capture, multiplicity of captures that

1366
01:14:18,680 --> 01:14:22,800
Speaker 5: one can say it's underway, municipalities and state own entities,

1367
01:14:23,160 --> 01:14:26,559
Speaker 5: you still see voices coming out. South Africa has strong

1368
01:14:26,800 --> 01:14:31,400
Speaker 5: civil society, and I think that, you know, gives us

1369
01:14:31,439 --> 01:14:34,840
Speaker 5: an opportunity to just regain that common sense. You see

1370
01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:37,760
Speaker 5: the commissions. I know that sometimes when you look at

1371
01:14:38,160 --> 01:14:41,439
Speaker 5: another announcement for a commission of inquiry, it feels like

1372
01:14:41,560 --> 01:14:43,439
Speaker 5: not a gain. But at the end of the day

1373
01:14:44,000 --> 01:14:47,320
Speaker 5: you realize that the system always tries to reset itself

1374
01:14:47,400 --> 01:14:51,080
Speaker 5: away from the dominant political power. So I'm quite hopeful.

1375
01:14:51,160 --> 01:14:54,880
Speaker 5: And never before, Stephen, have I even personally to us

1376
01:14:54,920 --> 01:14:57,799
Speaker 5: to answer a question. Even more personally have I thought

1377
01:14:57,960 --> 01:15:00,839
Speaker 5: I'm gonna leave South Africa and go leave another country.

1378
01:15:01,400 --> 01:15:04,240
Speaker 5: I just think that the greatest asset about South Africa

1379
01:15:04,479 --> 01:15:07,599
Speaker 5: is its people. They don't have to agree every day,

1380
01:15:07,960 --> 01:15:11,719
Speaker 5: but what they make out of their disagreement that different

1381
01:15:11,800 --> 01:15:14,240
Speaker 5: takes on the where the country ought to go is

1382
01:15:14,240 --> 01:15:17,800
Speaker 5: something quite incredible. So South Africa the biggest asset that

1383
01:15:17,960 --> 01:15:21,400
Speaker 5: is people, it's assets. Exactly. The people of South Africa things.

1384
01:15:21,600 --> 01:15:24,240
Speaker 5: They're bigger than their leaders. So my hope is with

1385
01:15:24,320 --> 01:15:27,799
Speaker 5: the people in pockets. People keep fighting back and trying

1386
01:15:27,840 --> 01:15:29,680
Speaker 5: to research the country.

1387
01:15:29,840 --> 01:15:32,960
Speaker 2: Doctor Rolfe is our guest and how I make my money.

1388
01:15:32,960 --> 01:15:35,640
Speaker 2: We're talking about his career, the political analyst on The

1389
01:15:35,680 --> 01:15:37,800
Speaker 2: Money Show. Tonight. We have a few more moments with him.

1390
01:15:37,800 --> 01:15:38,800
Speaker 2: It's nine minutes.

1391
01:15:38,520 --> 01:15:42,880
Speaker 10: Stay The Money Show. Stevel Protest is brought to you

1392
01:15:42,920 --> 01:15:47,320
Speaker 10: by Abscess CIV. Discover the latest trends shaping digital assets

1393
01:15:47,360 --> 01:15:51,679
Speaker 10: across Africa. Download the Abster Africa Digital Assets Insights twenty

1394
01:15:51,760 --> 01:15:52,360
Speaker 10: twenty five.

1395
01:15:54,200 --> 01:15:56,120
Speaker 1: The Money Showed How I.

1396
01:15:56,080 --> 01:15:59,200
Speaker 2: Make my money seven minutes say talking to doctor Rolfe

1397
01:15:59,360 --> 01:16:02,320
Speaker 2: the political and about how he makes his money. Ralph,

1398
01:16:02,400 --> 01:16:04,640
Speaker 2: I presume you have clients you come to you for

1399
01:16:04,760 --> 01:16:09,200
Speaker 2: political analysis. I imagine get some money from columns and

1400
01:16:09,280 --> 01:16:11,639
Speaker 2: things like that, your books that you haven't spoken about yet,

1401
01:16:12,080 --> 01:16:14,679
Speaker 2: but I'm hoping you're also making some money from farming.

1402
01:16:14,720 --> 01:16:16,120
Speaker 2: How big a part of your life is that.

1403
01:16:17,200 --> 01:16:19,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a very interesting area, Steven. I would say

1404
01:16:19,920 --> 01:16:23,080
Speaker 5: when it comes to farming, I have a competitive advantage

1405
01:16:23,080 --> 01:16:26,760
Speaker 5: because it's one thing I've known about before going into

1406
01:16:26,920 --> 01:16:30,080
Speaker 5: advanced studies. I mean, I've learned about crops when I

1407
01:16:30,120 --> 01:16:35,000
Speaker 5: grew up here. So I decided the last few years

1408
01:16:35,280 --> 01:16:37,759
Speaker 5: just set up what you can call a commercial farm.

1409
01:16:37,920 --> 01:16:41,760
Speaker 5: I just didn't want subsistence because I grew up within

1410
01:16:41,880 --> 01:16:45,479
Speaker 5: subsistence arrangement. So what I did was to was to

1411
01:16:45,520 --> 01:16:48,640
Speaker 5: try to set up a modern farm with modern irrigation,

1412
01:16:50,240 --> 01:16:54,040
Speaker 5: mechanized irrigation where we can measure the amount of water

1413
01:16:54,280 --> 01:16:58,680
Speaker 5: that we use, and put the NASA infrastructure. And I've

1414
01:16:58,720 --> 01:17:01,559
Speaker 5: been putting infrastructure for the last few years. As people

1415
01:17:01,600 --> 01:17:03,920
Speaker 5: say that if you want to make a million out

1416
01:17:03,960 --> 01:17:08,679
Speaker 5: of farmingst then be prepared to lose or put two millions.

1417
01:17:09,479 --> 01:17:12,840
Speaker 5: It's quite demanding, capital intensive, but I think where we

1418
01:17:12,920 --> 01:17:16,559
Speaker 5: are we will be able to start putting high zelu crops,

1419
01:17:16,600 --> 01:17:18,960
Speaker 5: maybe within a couple of weeks we've had to work

1420
01:17:19,040 --> 01:17:21,400
Speaker 5: on the land, Steven. We've had to leavel the land,

1421
01:17:21,800 --> 01:17:25,440
Speaker 5: whether to work on the soil, whether to do the pipeline,

1422
01:17:25,640 --> 01:17:28,519
Speaker 5: just to do it by the book proper and everything.

1423
01:17:28,600 --> 01:17:30,479
Speaker 5: So it's one of the things that I said to

1424
01:17:30,520 --> 01:17:32,720
Speaker 5: myself when I started waking, that one day I'll go

1425
01:17:32,840 --> 01:17:35,800
Speaker 5: back to where I grew up and try to see

1426
01:17:35,800 --> 01:17:38,000
Speaker 5: if we can take this thing to another level. And

1427
01:17:38,040 --> 01:17:43,040
Speaker 5: I'm quite happy. The success might not come through myself

1428
01:17:43,080 --> 01:17:46,000
Speaker 5: and my farming project, but I think some younger people

1429
01:17:46,120 --> 01:17:48,920
Speaker 5: who are coming up and they end better they're waking,

1430
01:17:49,360 --> 01:17:51,880
Speaker 5: they might see something like that and start thinking that, hey,

1431
01:17:51,960 --> 01:17:54,720
Speaker 5: let's invest in this community in a way that we

1432
01:17:54,760 --> 01:17:58,559
Speaker 5: can change this community into authorizing farming community. Because that's

1433
01:17:58,600 --> 01:18:00,840
Speaker 5: what we've been doing. When I grew up, Steven, we

1434
01:18:01,240 --> 01:18:05,839
Speaker 5: never we never bought daily stuff like tomatoes, million million everything.

1435
01:18:06,080 --> 01:18:08,240
Speaker 5: We all got them from from our farm and all.

1436
01:18:08,240 --> 01:18:10,439
Speaker 5: And that meant we had a lot of cash that

1437
01:18:10,520 --> 01:18:12,360
Speaker 5: we did not have to spend and you could spend

1438
01:18:12,360 --> 01:18:15,559
Speaker 5: it on other important things. So building a commercial firm

1439
01:18:15,600 --> 01:18:18,680
Speaker 5: this site and trying to do it the book, it

1440
01:18:18,680 --> 01:18:21,439
Speaker 5: has been my occupation. And after that I go read

1441
01:18:21,520 --> 01:18:24,320
Speaker 5: and I go write as I usually do. But it's

1442
01:18:24,360 --> 01:18:28,040
Speaker 5: been quite a fulfilling experience and an interesting journey that

1443
01:18:28,600 --> 01:18:31,400
Speaker 5: I would share more with your listeners some other times.

1444
01:18:31,560 --> 01:18:34,360
Speaker 5: And I can say it requires commitment. You need to

1445
01:18:34,360 --> 01:18:36,640
Speaker 5: be hands on. You can't argue with the soil. You

1446
01:18:36,720 --> 01:18:39,679
Speaker 5: gotta work on it. You can't you know, those those

1447
01:18:39,720 --> 01:18:42,519
Speaker 5: are things that they change your attitude as to what

1448
01:18:42,600 --> 01:18:45,000
Speaker 5: do you do. Anyone awake on the farm, you Peter reports,

1449
01:18:45,120 --> 01:18:48,519
Speaker 5: even you read about the trends in agriculture and so forth.

1450
01:18:48,520 --> 01:18:51,400
Speaker 5: But I have to say it's been an interesting learning experience.

1451
01:18:51,520 --> 01:18:54,120
Speaker 5: We are a couple of weeks from trying to put

1452
01:18:54,160 --> 01:18:57,559
Speaker 5: some butternut I really crops and counting the seas, and

1453
01:18:57,600 --> 01:19:02,600
Speaker 5: everything's being a journey, but I'm very hopeful that we

1454
01:19:02,640 --> 01:19:05,160
Speaker 5: will be able to see good returns in the course of.

1455
01:19:05,120 --> 01:19:07,160
Speaker 2: The Do you feel this is going to be a

1456
01:19:07,240 --> 01:19:09,960
Speaker 2: very strange question, But following our politics as closely as

1457
01:19:10,000 --> 01:19:13,879
Speaker 2: you have, being incredibly well informed and in the debates

1458
01:19:13,920 --> 01:19:17,200
Speaker 2: around land land ownership, you'll remember, I mean this is

1459
01:19:17,240 --> 01:19:20,160
Speaker 2: an issue I always say, expropriation without compensation is not

1460
01:19:20,160 --> 01:19:22,800
Speaker 2: going to go away. The issue will come back. I

1461
01:19:22,800 --> 01:19:25,360
Speaker 2: don't think it will necessarily ever happen because our politics

1462
01:19:25,400 --> 01:19:28,360
Speaker 2: is too fractured now, but the issue will keep coming back.

1463
01:19:29,120 --> 01:19:31,160
Speaker 2: Do you feel sorry?

1464
01:19:31,240 --> 01:19:31,320
Speaker 5: So?

1465
01:19:31,400 --> 01:19:33,920
Speaker 2: Do you feel a sort of an attachment to your

1466
01:19:34,000 --> 01:19:34,960
Speaker 2: land in a way?

1467
01:19:36,000 --> 01:19:39,240
Speaker 5: No, Stephen, you know I've got a realistic approach to

1468
01:19:39,280 --> 01:19:42,840
Speaker 5: the land. I mean, you see, the difficulty in land

1469
01:19:42,920 --> 01:19:46,120
Speaker 5: is to add value to it machinery. You need your

1470
01:19:46,160 --> 01:19:49,280
Speaker 5: big hole loaders, you need the excavators to be able

1471
01:19:49,320 --> 01:19:51,960
Speaker 5: to work on the land. So if you look at it,

1472
01:19:52,240 --> 01:19:54,720
Speaker 5: if you have ever spent more time on land and

1473
01:19:54,760 --> 01:19:57,679
Speaker 5: look at the challenges that one confront working wonder land,

1474
01:19:58,040 --> 01:20:01,520
Speaker 5: you realize that the bigger part of the don't expropriation

1475
01:20:01,800 --> 01:20:05,120
Speaker 5: is quite abstruct and interestingly stiven is that most people

1476
01:20:05,120 --> 01:20:07,920
Speaker 5: who are concerned about this debate are in a area

1477
01:20:08,080 --> 01:20:10,439
Speaker 5: where there isn't much fun in taking place. I mean,

1478
01:20:10,720 --> 01:20:14,120
Speaker 5: if you come to the criminal land in rural areas,

1479
01:20:13,840 --> 01:20:17,440
Speaker 5: the land I'm working on, I want to be very transparent.

1480
01:20:17,520 --> 01:20:19,840
Speaker 5: It's a criminal land that I acquired. I said, I

1481
01:20:19,840 --> 01:20:23,080
Speaker 5: want to develop this land, but the cost of developing

1482
01:20:23,120 --> 01:20:27,639
Speaker 5: its design is almost a prohibitive. That the bigger part

1483
01:20:27,720 --> 01:20:30,000
Speaker 5: of land, I can give you ten head chaps, it

1484
01:20:30,040 --> 01:20:33,360
Speaker 5: will brain in your pocket and it's about that commitment.

1485
01:20:33,479 --> 01:20:36,040
Speaker 5: So I think the debate that you are having about

1486
01:20:36,080 --> 01:20:40,120
Speaker 5: expropriation for me is still abstruct because there is a

1487
01:20:40,240 --> 01:20:43,120
Speaker 5: large quantities of land in rural areas that used to

1488
01:20:43,160 --> 01:20:46,559
Speaker 5: be worked on and now it's just lying idle. Why

1489
01:20:46,720 --> 01:20:50,439
Speaker 5: because you need bowhole, you need machinery, you need pipes,

1490
01:20:50,520 --> 01:20:52,280
Speaker 5: you need to be able to work that soil, to

1491
01:20:52,360 --> 01:20:55,000
Speaker 5: till the soil, level the soil, and all of those

1492
01:20:55,040 --> 01:20:58,760
Speaker 5: are money. Perhaps in the future, maybe once we have

1493
01:20:58,800 --> 01:21:02,960
Speaker 5: exhausted this piece of learn that exists, we will meaningfully

1494
01:21:03,080 --> 01:21:05,520
Speaker 5: all of us, particular in the question of ex appropriation.

1495
01:21:05,760 --> 01:21:08,400
Speaker 5: But for me personally at this point, if you said

1496
01:21:08,400 --> 01:21:10,120
Speaker 5: to me, Steven that you want to give me another

1497
01:21:10,160 --> 01:21:13,280
Speaker 5: ten head tares off land, it will drive me completely bankrupt.

1498
01:21:13,280 --> 01:21:15,559
Speaker 5: I don't want it. What tisa have you seen now

1499
01:21:15,640 --> 01:21:17,120
Speaker 5: for me to do something about it.

1500
01:21:17,680 --> 01:21:19,439
Speaker 2: Ralph, it's been amazing to talk to you in such

1501
01:21:19,439 --> 01:21:21,080
Speaker 2: a new way. Thank you so much for coming on

1502
01:21:21,120 --> 01:21:21,679
Speaker 2: The Money Show.

1503
01:21:22,439 --> 01:21:23,800
Speaker 5: All is the pleasure. Thank you so much.

1504
01:21:23,880 --> 01:21:27,360
Speaker 2: Doctor Ralph Mateka the political analyst and farmer explaining to

1505
01:21:27,360 --> 01:21:29,880
Speaker 2: you how he makes his money on The Money Show.

1506
01:21:32,000 --> 01:21:34,479
Speaker 10: The money show. Stivil protest is brought to you by

1507
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Speaker 2: Well, I'm afraid in the US, no Wall Street is down,

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Speaker 2: the Dow Jones is down point four five percent, then

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Speaker 2: asset down a third of a percent, the S and

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Speaker 2: P five hundred down point four to seven percent as well.

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Speaker 2: Pretty much all about interest rate expectations and whether or

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Speaker 2: not there will be another cut in rates in the

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Speaker 2: United States. We spoke, of course, about the importance of

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Speaker 2: the FED in Investment School last week, and this week

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Speaker 2: I'm expecting we'll have a conversation about rats like Jaibar

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Speaker 2: and Zenoria. All of those are things that we will

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Speaker 2: be talking about. I'm looking forward to speaking to you

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Speaker 2: again tomorrow. Good evening, it's eight o'clock