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Speaker 1: I did not know when we arranged the interview about

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Speaker 1: to happen that Rebecca Davis was going to spend as

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Speaker 1: much time as she did in Plan B this afternoon

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Speaker 1: making the case as to why the Minister of Social Development,

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Speaker 1: Cissisi Tolache should be fired. And there's all sorts of

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Speaker 1: manipulation of the rules around contracts and employment and so on,

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Speaker 1: that she is prima farce responsible for breaking the rules.

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Speaker 1: And then there is the matter of the two five

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Speaker 1: hundred thousand rand SUVs luxury or otherwise. I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to revisit that talk, but I do think it is

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Speaker 1: yet another signal of how government commitment to honest behavior

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Speaker 1: from its servants is not being matched in practice. So

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Speaker 1: I thought, let's have another go at it with Wayne Divenacher,

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Speaker 1: the CEO of the organization Undoing Tax Abuse. Wayne.

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Speaker 2: Hello, Yeah, Hi, Hi John? Could Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean, particularly the case of the two five hundred

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Speaker 1: grand vehicles, which well, we're not entirely sure of what

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Speaker 1: the intended destination was, but we can be pretty sure

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Speaker 1: that the the destination intended by the givers of these

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Speaker 1: two vehicles was not Sisisi to la Che's two children

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Speaker 1: and the daily Maverick publishing evidence that you know, the

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Speaker 1: ownership of the vehicles has been legally transferred to the children,

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Speaker 1: and yet there's no action. So once again a senior

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Speaker 1: government official, a minister of an important portfolio, obviously doing

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Speaker 1: something or let me rephrase that, significant evidence that something

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Speaker 1: seriously wrong has been done, and what do we get?

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Speaker 2: No action. It's it's frustrating, It is absolutely frustrating. And

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Speaker 2: the Bigod he has done a good job digging into

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Speaker 2: this matter, as have the MPs and in Parliament, I

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Speaker 2: think we'll actual essay MP's asking the tough questions and yeah,

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Speaker 2: when you are met with radio silence or confusing responses

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Speaker 2: that that lack reel, you know, substance and transparency, well

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Speaker 2: then the speculation just rises. It's been going on for

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Speaker 2: over a week now, and quite frankly, our views that

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Speaker 2: the president who's acted very rapidly removing people like Andrew

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Speaker 2: Whitfield who didn't get proper permissions to travel overseas, they

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Speaker 2: get fired or he's got another actions taken by the president,

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Speaker 2: but in this case he's very slow, as he has

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Speaker 2: been in others and so there's this inconsistency. Uh, he

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Speaker 2: needs to exercise leadership. And what we're also saying is

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Speaker 2: that before he's put under press to do so, which

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Speaker 2: means he needs to get a written state performer and interrogator.

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Speaker 2: As her boss, she should be forthcoming and explaining this.

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Speaker 2: But in the meantime we have all this run around.

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Speaker 2: I guess it's the same old case John, where you know,

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Speaker 2: maybe headlines today, let's keep our heads below the radar

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Speaker 2: and it'll all disappear. Well, it's not going to disappear,

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Speaker 2: and we think that the President should quite frankly remove her,

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Speaker 2: but she should be more honest and come forward. We

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Speaker 2: do not need people like us in parliament.

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Speaker 1: It won't go away because people like you from organizations

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Speaker 1: like yours, and people in the media and people in

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Speaker 1: opposition parties, some opposition parties in Parliament will make sure

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Speaker 1: that it does not disappear from the national discussion. And

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Speaker 1: when Rebecca said to me, because when I spoke about

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Speaker 1: this yesterday and so that simply can't understand why I

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Speaker 1: saw Roninforza hasn't acted against somebody. And the Department of

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Speaker 1: Social Development, for my goodness sake, such an important department

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Speaker 1: and it has been cursed with such incompetence and and

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Speaker 1: that's being kind, and yeah, it's absolutely and why not

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Speaker 1: why why what constituency is he placating by keeping her

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Speaker 1: in office? And Rebecca suggested her chairmanship of the leadership

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Speaker 1: of the Women's League of the ANC is the reason,

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Speaker 1: and yes, that makes a terrible sense.

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Speaker 2: Yeah it is it does you know, that's the type

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Speaker 2: of speculation we've got to go to. Why is she

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Speaker 2: so important that no action has taken The chairman of

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Speaker 2: the Women's League is a powerful position. It is one

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Speaker 2: that has a lot of say when it comes to

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Speaker 2: electing the NEC and future leaders within the party. And

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Speaker 2: so I guess that power does get in the way,

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Speaker 2: but it shouldn't and and and you know he does

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Speaker 2: need to hold it to account on this one. She

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Speaker 2: needs to be extremely transparent and we've heard very little,

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Speaker 2: no meaningful explanation. So yeah, it's just the mind boggles.

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Speaker 2: Hopefully something's going to happen, and happen soon, but we

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Speaker 2: can't see any reason why she should still be in

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Speaker 2: this position. If the.

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Speaker 1: Reception of the vehicles and the disposition of the vehicles

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Speaker 1: is completely above board, there will be documentary evidence of that.

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Speaker 1: The failure to produce the documentary evidence again allows us

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Speaker 1: to move to the dark suspicion that the reason is

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Speaker 1: not being produced is because it doesn't exist. And what

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Speaker 1: does exist is evidence to the contrary, evidence that particular

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Speaker 1: intention was meant and that intention has been subverted. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's you try to keep an open mind, but in

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Speaker 1: the absence of reasonable explanation, the mind tends to close.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and and rightly so we can only act on

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Speaker 2: the facts. And if the facts aren't forthcoming, then we've

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Speaker 2: got to join the dots. And the picture in the

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Speaker 2: dots that we we make is that something towards seriously

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Speaker 2: underwards has taken place when your direct family members are

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Speaker 2: benefiting in the gratuity of this nature expensive cars. You

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Speaker 2: haven't disclosed this U the ANC Women's League management knows

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Speaker 2: nothing about these cars being donated to them. And even

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Speaker 2: if they were donated to the ANC Women's League, it

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Speaker 2: doesn't give the the chairperson or anybody in positions of

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Speaker 2: authority to now take charge of those vehicles and and

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Speaker 2: and start dishing them out to family members. There's a

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Speaker 2: there's a massive conflicture and and and and if you

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Speaker 2: don't disclose this as as for the ethics rules in parliament.

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Speaker 2: You're in serious trouble and we cannot have unethical be

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Speaker 2: in positions of power, hitting up a cabinet positions we

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Speaker 2: just cannot, we cannot afford. In this country. The trust

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Speaker 2: deficit between government and society is so wide and this

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Speaker 2: just makes it worse. Which is why we say the

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Speaker 2: President must act decisively and meet out the accountabaty that

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Speaker 2: we expect and in situations like this, and not pussy

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Speaker 2: foot and delay this. It's not This is not complex

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Speaker 2: forensics audits that takes months. This is stuff. You gather

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Speaker 2: the facts and evidence within a week or two. He's

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Speaker 2: got the people to do that, and you hold her

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Speaker 2: to account or if she comes forward with the plausible explanation,

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Speaker 2: we want to hear it.

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Speaker 1: Wayne Devinarka, thank you very much. In NEAT CEO AT

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Speaker 1: Organization Undoing Tax Abuse