Speaker 1: Lunch with Pipper Hudson and now Consumer Talk featuring Wendy Nola.
Speaker 2: It is time for Consumer Talk, and Wendy Nola is
Speaker 2: with us in studio today, ready to tackle the story
Speaker 2: of a listener struggle to extricate herself from a gym
Speaker 2: contract she hadn't realized she was signing up for. What
Speaker 2: was in the fine print that the salesperson hadn't mentioned
Speaker 2: in their conversation is the key element of the story today,
Speaker 2: and it's one what all of us can learn from.
Speaker 2: So we're going to be hearing from that listener in
Speaker 2: just a moment to describe what happened. But I'm sure
Speaker 2: that there are many people listening who've had similar experiences.
Speaker 2: You might want to comment or share their thoughts with us.
Speaker 2: What's ups to seven two five six seven one five
Speaker 2: six seven if you would like to join the conversation.
Speaker 1: Always love you to have you with us.
Speaker 3: Wendy, Thank you, Papa, good to be here.
Speaker 2: So our complainert this week is doctor l Raton toemvem there,
Speaker 2: who is a medical doctor practicing in our public service.
Speaker 2: And I say that to emphasize the fact this is
Speaker 2: a highly intelligent, well educated woman and If it could
Speaker 2: happened to her, it could happen to any of us.
Speaker 2: And that's why I specifically mentioned that she is also
Speaker 2: the mother of a fifteen year old boy who simply
Speaker 2: wanted to go to the gym with his friends for
Speaker 2: one evening, one night only, as the saying goes, and
Speaker 2: that is where the drama all began.
Speaker 1: Wendy, tell us what happens.
Speaker 3: Okay, So there was a request Lato asked on her
Speaker 3: son's behalf if you could use the gym just for
Speaker 3: that one single evening and to join his friends. So
Speaker 3: this was Virgin active in Tiger's Valley, and a staff
Speaker 3: member at the gym said, yes, of course, you can.
Speaker 4: Pay three hundred rand.
Speaker 3: And he'll be able to train for the whole month.
Speaker 3: So she thought, okay, that's fine. She whipped out the card,
Speaker 3: paid on the little point of purchase machine and was
Speaker 3: asked to sign a document authorizing, because he's a minor,
Speaker 3: authorizing her son to use the facilities, which she was told.
Speaker 4: And then.
Speaker 3: She believed what she was told, and so she signed
Speaker 3: the document without reading it, as so many people do.
Speaker 3: This is not going to be a judge show. As
Speaker 3: much as I've spent decades telling people to please read
Speaker 3: this small print. There have been times if I wasn't
Speaker 3: in this job that I wouldn't have either, to be
Speaker 3: quite honest, And so this happened in late June.
Speaker 4: A month later she.
Speaker 3: Was contacted by the sales consultant. She never they never connected.
Speaker 3: And a month after that she was contacted and asked
Speaker 3: when she's going to make payment, and that's when she
Speaker 3: found out that she'd actually signed a twelve month contract
Speaker 3: for her son at four hundred and fifty round a month.
Speaker 4: So that's and that three.
Speaker 3: Hundred round that she paid was actually the if you
Speaker 3: looked in the contract, it's the joining fee. So that
Speaker 3: commitment with a joining fore you were signing that contract
Speaker 3: border commitment up to just under six thousand and five
Speaker 3: to seven and.
Speaker 2: Seven round for one night's train is what it is.
Speaker 2: What it came to because he literally only went that way.
Speaker 3: He went for the month he went because remember they
Speaker 3: said if you can, if you pay this three hundred
Speaker 3: rand to ninety nine, he can gym for the month.
Speaker 3: And she thought, okay, it was part of it. It was holidays,
Speaker 3: and she thought, cool, three hundred rand, that's fair enough.
Speaker 2: I'll do that, okay, But it turned out to be
Speaker 2: closer to five thy seven hundred. And when she objected,
Speaker 2: of course, she was told, you can cancel the contract,
Speaker 2: but there will be a hefty cancelation fee. As we've
Speaker 2: spoken about many times, fixed term contracts, do you have
Speaker 2: that laws written into all of them?
Speaker 3: Cell phone, gym, alarmed your armed response contracts, all of them.
Speaker 2: So you can cancel and get out of it early,
Speaker 2: but they're entitled to take a cancelation fee. And as
Speaker 2: you've told us many times before, Wendy, it's not specified
Speaker 2: how much or how little that cancelation fee should.
Speaker 4: Be the act.
Speaker 3: It isn't, but it should be in the contract. That's
Speaker 3: always something to look for, okay.
Speaker 2: So this is, as you say, a classic example the
Speaker 2: mistakes so many people make of signings something without reading
Speaker 2: every last word of it, but also of taking for
Speaker 2: granted that what the salesperson is telling you is what
Speaker 2: they're putting in the document.
Speaker 3: We absorb knowledge like that. It's easier to look at
Speaker 3: someone in the eye and take note of what they're saying, right,
Speaker 3: and so there's an element of trust with it's a
Speaker 3: bank or insure or a gym. You have this natural innate. Well,
Speaker 3: you've told me all everything our sun and what you're told,
Speaker 3: and there are those who will take advantage of that,
Speaker 3: and that's I mean people they're earning a commission. Let's
Speaker 3: not forget, and you've just got to understand and be
Speaker 3: It's not everyone, not by long. But I'm just saying
Speaker 3: it happens. I get the complaints. I don't hear when
Speaker 3: it all goes beautifully, but you see the one. There's
Speaker 3: a vulnerability there for us as consumers. So I almost
Speaker 3: didn't take up the writer's case because I've taken up
Speaker 3: so many. It doesn't there's no recording of who said
Speaker 3: what in the sales process. All there is is proof
Speaker 3: of what the agreement was is the contract with the
Speaker 3: person's signature on it.
Speaker 1: And she does not dispute that she signed the contract.
Speaker 3: Does not dispute that. And in fact I actually said
Speaker 3: to her initially, I'm sorry, this is the case, and
Speaker 3: this is why I spend so much of my work
Speaker 3: time giving this advice.
Speaker 4: Over and over.
Speaker 3: And then I woke up and I thought, ah, she
Speaker 3: didn't get a copy of the contract. Now, the Act
Speaker 3: says when you sign in person, the service provider must
Speaker 3: must not may must provide you with a copy of
Speaker 3: what you've signed so for her not to walk away.
Speaker 3: She only saw the contract when when she realized that
Speaker 3: she signed, and obviously she said, well, I don't have
Speaker 3: a copy, please give it to me. And because of that,
Speaker 3: I thought there's a window here, there's a chance that
Speaker 3: I can help her.
Speaker 2: Okay, So we've got Lorata with us on the line.
Speaker 2: Let's bring her in at this point and say thank
Speaker 2: you so much. Firstly, Lorata, welcome to the show, but
Speaker 2: thank you for being willing to share your story on
Speaker 2: air so that others can learn from your experience.
Speaker 1: It's wonderful to have you with us this afternoon.
Speaker 5: Hi, Prepa and Wendy, you think, no, thank you for
Speaker 5: having me.
Speaker 2: It's our pleasure. So take us back to the moment
Speaker 2: when you got that phone call. Well, in fact, let's
Speaker 2: go further back when you had that first engagement in
Speaker 2: June with the person who said to you, sure your
Speaker 2: son can train for three hundred rand for a month. Did,
Speaker 2: as far as you recall, did anybody say anything during
Speaker 2: that conversation about the possibility of there being a longer
Speaker 2: contract beyond the end of a month.
Speaker 5: Quite to the contrary, I kept on saying to this person,
Speaker 5: I am not trying to get into a contract. We
Speaker 5: just want to train for today and ns me how
Speaker 5: it goes.
Speaker 3: I'm not.
Speaker 5: I was very specific, I don't want a contract. And
Speaker 5: then yeah, so there was no debit order set up.
Speaker 5: So then that's why I was like, it can be
Speaker 5: a contract. So no one said this is going to
Speaker 5: go on for twelve months. Definitely not.
Speaker 3: That's the point I'm hearing for the first time here,
Speaker 3: Rato that and I should affought to ask you. There
Speaker 3: was no debit order mandate, so that also gave you
Speaker 3: comfort and to want to head your phone you to say, well,
Speaker 3: you've got a contract, now, aren't you paying? Okay?
Speaker 5: So then I was like if because I've had a
Speaker 5: virgin active contract before and it was just like the
Speaker 5: devil order would go. So I told the person the
Speaker 5: call center that I didn't even sign it. So there
Speaker 5: is in my in my mind, there's no contract.
Speaker 1: Here, Okayta.
Speaker 2: I also believe that there was very good reason why
Speaker 2: you didn't want to even consider taking out a longer
Speaker 2: term contract because you knew very well that your son
Speaker 2: would not be able to use it.
Speaker 6: Not.
Speaker 5: So yes, already. It was June, so he was scheduled
Speaker 5: for a knee surgery in that was going to happen
Speaker 5: in September. So there's no ways I would.
Speaker 3: He would have been out of action for months.
Speaker 5: Yes, And I kept on telling them, but you okay.
Speaker 2: So so you get the phone call saying, hey, you
Speaker 2: owe us some money for your latest month subscription, and
Speaker 2: you say to them, what subscription?
Speaker 1: I don't have one.
Speaker 2: That was the first time anybody spoke about giving you
Speaker 2: a copy of the contract Lerata when you asked for one,
Speaker 2: were they willing to supply it straight away?
Speaker 5: I must be honor. I didn't even ask for a
Speaker 5: contract when they called me. I was just like, I
Speaker 5: will come into the to the facility, to the gym
Speaker 5: and sot this out myself face to face, because yeah,
Speaker 5: I didn't even ask for one.
Speaker 3: Okay, So you were given did you? You were presumably
Speaker 3: given one when you went into the branch.
Speaker 5: No. No, no. When I left there after signing and
Speaker 5: my son was jimming, there was no documents.
Speaker 3: I mean afterwards.
Speaker 2: So only once you queried and they said to you, well,
Speaker 2: we've got to sign a contract.
Speaker 1: That was the first time.
Speaker 5: Once I queried. Yes, then they sent me the which
Speaker 5: now like either read this time and I saw actually
Speaker 5: a contract. I didn't read that time because I trusted
Speaker 5: what you were saying is what.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so many people do.
Speaker 1: And so many of us. Would Narata please stay with us.
Speaker 2: Let's wear from Wendy what happened when she took this
Speaker 2: case to Virgin Active. So when you heard the details
Speaker 2: and realize there's more to this story than just signing
Speaker 2: without looking.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the contract, the missing copy of the contract was
Speaker 3: was the key thing.
Speaker 4: That's a bit of ammunition.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: So you then reached out to to Virgin Active Tiger
Speaker 2: Valley and questioned why Lourata hadn't been given a copy
Speaker 2: of the contract that she had signed, amongst other things.
Speaker 4: What response to do?
Speaker 3: You actually went, as I always do, to the head
Speaker 3: of customer service, Jackie Walter. Okay, that's Virgin Active. And
Speaker 3: she began by saying that as a rule, all Virgin
Speaker 3: Active members are provided with a copy of their signed
Speaker 3: membership agreement because they generated digitally and are automatically emailed
Speaker 3: within five minutes of authorization by our club administrator. And
Speaker 3: I must say I have had personal experience of that.
Speaker 3: But she said during a review this year, we identified
Speaker 3: that at the end of June of this year, a
Speaker 3: temporary I error caused a small number of agreements not
Speaker 3: to be emailed automatically. This was quickly resolved. All impacted
Speaker 3: contracts were attached to member profile to ensure transparency and accuracy.
Speaker 3: Notice attached to the profile. But they're not seeing.
Speaker 2: Su Yes, riter didn't know she had a member profile
Speaker 2: because she didn't know she was a member.
Speaker 3: No, ye, okay, she said. Jackie says, our contracts are
Speaker 3: deliberately clear, with key terms membership type, duration and monthly
Speaker 3: fee highlighted and requiring signatures. Well, she's not initials next
Speaker 3: to each one, Otherwise Lata's attention would have been drawn
Speaker 3: to it. I have a big problem in all contracts
Speaker 3: main contracts, ever, and I'm going, if you're saying they're clear,
Speaker 3: why not have them initial right there? And then I'll
Speaker 3: never get a straight answer on that. No memberships can
Speaker 3: be initiated by the sound contract. We expect members, all
Speaker 3: the adults representing a minor to take make I think
Speaker 3: she maan take responsibility for having read the details before signing.
Speaker 3: Sales consultants or trained regularly compliance checks on place any substantiatedness.
Speaker 3: Representation results in disc action, and I think the problem here,
Speaker 3: as always is substantiated because unless you're making your own
Speaker 3: recording of you've got.
Speaker 4: Action, you have zero proof.
Speaker 3: Exactly. We appreciate the nature of commission based sales and
Speaker 3: for that reason, Virgin Active sales and centives are specifically
Speaker 3: structured to promote high quality sales, where members who terminate
Speaker 3: early results in lower commissions. Okay, in doctor Bember's case,
Speaker 3: we can confirm that her son's agreement fold within the
Speaker 3: window where the IT error occurred, and the contract was
Speaker 3: not automatically sent. This was an entirely unintended error and
Speaker 3: the sales agent.
Speaker 4: Could not have had any influence on this.
Speaker 3: We checked the member's access history. Basically, they're saying he
Speaker 3: only did gym for that one month that they thought
Speaker 3: they had paid.
Speaker 4: That's what they thought, that three hundred rand for you.
Speaker 3: The consultant question that Lata Dorata said, Jackie, that Raja
Speaker 3: said that she dealt with He's been with Virgin Actor
Speaker 3: for more than five years and he has a strong
Speaker 3: track record. Is that Jim has no prior history of misrepresentation.
Speaker 3: He recalls the interaction clearly and maintains that the terms
Speaker 3: were explained consistent with the Sound contract. I will, yeah,
Speaker 3: maybe we should bring Larato intercomment on that.
Speaker 1: Okay, so there we go.
Speaker 2: I mean, Larata, as you've said to us before, you
Speaker 2: remember it very very differently. So just to say categorically again,
Speaker 2: at any point in your recollection, did he explain to
Speaker 2: you that what you were signing up for was in
Speaker 2: fact a twelve month contract and not a one month contract.
Speaker 5: Definitely not, Definitely he did not say that, and I
Speaker 5: he couldn't have said that because I kept on saying
Speaker 5: and not. I don't under contracts at this point.
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, So, as you said, Wendy's it's a
Speaker 2: difficult one because Larata has no proof of what he
Speaker 2: said to her because that interaction was not recorded. The
Speaker 2: only written proof is the contract which exists and does
Speaker 2: have her signature on, at which she concedes having side
Speaker 2: bagally binding. But we did have a happy ending in.
Speaker 3: Jackie walteron Ahead of Customer Service at Virgin Active said,
Speaker 3: while the Sound contract is valid and clearly outlines the
Speaker 3: twelve month terms agreed to agreed by the payer and guardian,
Speaker 3: we do recognize the context cam which we've described considering this,
Speaker 3: we were prepared to make a once oft goodwill exception
Speaker 3: and cancel the contract at no cost and refund any
Speaker 3: fees deducted. So that was great, and I'm so pleased
Speaker 3: that I had actually woken up that morning and thought, no,
Speaker 3: I have to take this up.
Speaker 1: Let's just try.
Speaker 3: Yeh, let's just try. When I took up the case, though,
Speaker 3: I said that I'd heard these allegations made about Jim Seals,
Speaker 3: and not just with one brand across the board, but
Speaker 3: Jim Sales consultants not being completely upfront about all the
Speaker 3: terms in the contract, and I've heard them for many,
Speaker 3: many years now. I said, all the complainants can't be
Speaker 3: making it up, and the gyms have to know that
Speaker 3: misrepresentation is a problem in some cases, even if it's
Speaker 3: in the minority of cases that they are earning commission.
Speaker 3: So I asked, what is virgin active due to limit this?
Speaker 3: Has any monitoring policy been introduced in the last five
Speaker 3: or ten years?
Speaker 7: Then?
Speaker 3: I said, technology makes monetory easy and in expensive. Why
Speaker 3: not require that with all face to face interactions leading
Speaker 3: up to an agreement sign up, that there's they recorded.
Speaker 3: I mean, we have these devices on our phone. Technology
Speaker 3: makes everything quick and easy.
Speaker 2: Right, It would be so easy to hit record and
Speaker 2: just make a recording of the whole conversation.
Speaker 3: The salesperson must be heard telling it like it is,
Speaker 3: so in the largest case, saying right, you're two nineteen
Speaker 3: nine as you're joining fee. The minimum contract we have
Speaker 3: is twelve months. You're going to be paying four fifty.
Speaker 3: If you need want to cancel before that, you're going
Speaker 3: to have to pay a cancelation penalty. This is a woman.
Speaker 3: I mean, think about the balance of probabilities here. Whose
Speaker 3: son is going to go in for an operation in
Speaker 3: September which is going to render him unable to gym
Speaker 3: for months. I mean, you have the operator and then
Speaker 3: he's got.
Speaker 1: One crutches after sales crutches exactly.
Speaker 3: And he said walking stick. So the answer was, and
Speaker 3: I said, if armed with such a recording, if a
Speaker 3: new member or their period of guardian later logism is
Speaker 3: selling complaint, that recording could be sourced, and just knowing
Speaker 3: that they are being recorded would surely be a deterrent
Speaker 3: to sells consultants who feel tempted to fudge the truth.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was the response.
Speaker 3: Was while recording all face to face into actions is
Speaker 3: not feasible due to the nature of the inn club
Speaker 3: sales process and a number of off site activations. I mean,
Speaker 3: those are just words as far as I'm going to do.
Speaker 3: They don't make any scene.
Speaker 2: They're saying they're too many of these and they happen
Speaker 2: in too many places, is what I'm reading. And I'm
Speaker 2: saying that's nonsense, because Elergy is a cell phone on
Speaker 2: them and you can hit record on it doesn't matter
Speaker 2: where you are, whether you're in the gen or advertising
Speaker 2: in the shopping center, and.
Speaker 3: They're not initially next to the actual it's four one
Speaker 3: hundred and fifty rand four twelve months.
Speaker 2: We your attention to that you have, so that's a
Speaker 2: bit of a carpard. I think, okay, let's just before
Speaker 2: we must hand over to the news team.
Speaker 1: Larato.
Speaker 2: I mean obviously a one for you in that that
Speaker 2: the amount has been reversed and you're off the hook
Speaker 2: for the rest of the contract. But I'm sure you
Speaker 2: you've learned a lesson or two in the process.
Speaker 5: Anything before I sign you, Yeah, before we let you go.
Speaker 2: I hope your son is all right as you had
Speaker 2: your surgery, as he back on his feet.
Speaker 5: Yes, he so has the breath and stick.
Speaker 1: He is okay. So there's the proof.
Speaker 2: Absolutely if anybody darted Larata's story that he would not
Speaker 2: be able to use the chair.
Speaker 1: Well, the Rata, we wish him well and you well.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much for for being prepared to share
Speaker 2: the story with us on air today.
Speaker 5: Thank you, thank you, thank you to repay.
Speaker 3: You as you've just have. You've come on and shared
Speaker 3: your story with.
Speaker 2: That absolutely and if you could see the smile on
Speaker 2: Wendy's space, that's that I think she is. She considered
Speaker 2: herself repaid with that, thank you to thank you for that.
Speaker 8: CAPSL Consumer Talk WhatsApp on seven t five six seven
Speaker 8: one five six seven.
Speaker 2: We're still talking about the gym contract that was for
Speaker 2: something entirely different from what the purchase of thought she
Speaker 2: was signing up for. And we've got a couple of
Speaker 2: people responding with kind of me too stories and follow
Speaker 2: up comments and questions. Let's start with Chammayin, who says
Speaker 2: I had exactly the same scam happened to me many
Speaker 2: years ago. I signed up for a so called trial
Speaker 2: period only to find that and actually signed on for
Speaker 2: three years. The employee was not there anymore. When I
Speaker 2: tried to query it. I only managed to get out
Speaker 2: of it with a doctor's certificate because my husband had
Speaker 2: Alzheimer's and literally could not visit the gym. It wasn't
Speaker 2: a Virgin Active though in that case, says Charmaine. Jacintha says,
Speaker 2: I took out a contract last year with Virgin Active
Speaker 2: in September for a particular amount.
Speaker 1: In December, I was charged.
Speaker 2: At the new annual rate, which I found very annoying
Speaker 2: because I hadn't even been with them for a year,
Speaker 2: only two months, and then got hit with an increase.
Speaker 1: Is that allowable?
Speaker 3: It is allowable if it's in their contract. It's what
Speaker 3: happens with self and contracts. All the network service providers
Speaker 3: do it. It drives people mad because we don't have
Speaker 3: the right to unilaterally decide during the course of a
Speaker 3: fixed term contract that we're going to pay less. We
Speaker 3: are committed to that legally, and yet the clause in
Speaker 3: the small print allows them to increase. Look when they
Speaker 3: do it, they don't normally do it by amounts that
Speaker 3: would really really create so much bad will that they
Speaker 3: battle to sign up anyone new.
Speaker 4: You know, there'd be a big media and.
Speaker 3: Social media storm, but they do do it. I mostly
Speaker 3: get complaints about self and contracts, but on occasion that
Speaker 3: gyms do it, but less often.
Speaker 1: Okay, thanks for that.
Speaker 2: Phil says, my son is a lawyer and he is
Speaker 2: the one in the family who reads all and any
Speaker 2: contract before he signs anything. He doesn't allow anyone to
Speaker 2: push him into it. He does have the advantage and
Speaker 2: that he speaks legal.
Speaker 1: I love that.
Speaker 2: Phrase, But Phil says, I am also trying to be
Speaker 2: more careful. It's yeah, it's great if you've got one
Speaker 2: in the family who can check things for you as well.
Speaker 3: But he does say that the Consumer Protection Act, and
Speaker 3: certainly way up to Treasury level, they are very big
Speaker 3: on requiring companies to present these terms of conditions in
Speaker 3: layman's language. Yeah, and simple understandable language. But you see
Speaker 3: Legallyese dominating.
Speaker 2: Still, okay, we've got a voice not in from Fran
Speaker 2: as well, who wants to make a comment on a
Speaker 2: Larato story.
Speaker 1: Let's take a listen to that.
Speaker 9: Surely, in a contract like this, when you sign it
Speaker 9: in person, I mean it should be right up top
Speaker 9: twelve month gym contract in bold letters like it's very
Speaker 9: clearly on top, and this should be this is what
Speaker 9: this contract is about. Isn't that like part of the
Speaker 9: Consumer Protection Act?
Speaker 3: It's not specifically in there. I wish it was, because
Speaker 3: I spent a lot of my working life saying, why
Speaker 3: didn't you make that big put it in a special
Speaker 3: box and make them initial to the stick keep it.
Speaker 3: In fairness, I did look at the LATA shared her
Speaker 3: contract with me, and I've seen a lot worse. It
Speaker 3: actually was fairly clear. I think she should have been
Speaker 3: made to initial and there's never any reason why, espec
Speaker 3: she faced her face that you wouldn't want somebody to
Speaker 3: do that. So, I mean, and that really makes me
Speaker 3: think you're not trying hard enough to fix this problem.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's so.
Speaker 3: But the actual layout I've seen a lot worse. It
Speaker 3: wasn't buried, and it was quite it was quite plainly
Speaker 3: set out. To the point is that she was told
Speaker 3: one thing is so different, and she repeated her circumstances
Speaker 3: several times, and so she felt there was a meeting
Speaker 3: of the mind and that she didn't have to But
Speaker 3: as I said, this is a really good case to
Speaker 3: say never trust.
Speaker 1: Unfortunately, you can't. You can't take what.
Speaker 3: The salesperson says, with a pinch of salt and apply
Speaker 3: laser like focus to the words. But we don't do
Speaker 3: that because it's easier to stand in front of someone
Speaker 3: and absorb the words they're saying, then sit down and
Speaker 3: have to labor.
Speaker 1: Through pages of legal ease tiny print.
Speaker 3: It's hard work. But why is it hard work?
Speaker 2: You know it shouldn't be hard work. Yeah, I hear you, Wendy.
Speaker 1: There's a recent.
Speaker 2: Ruling in the banking sector on this that you wanted
Speaker 2: to flag, just to emphasize again this point that honestly, legally,
Speaker 2: you are liable for what you've signed. And I mean,
Speaker 2: you know this is the main thing we have to
Speaker 2: emphasize today. You must read what you sign signing, whether
Speaker 2: it is a contract, whether it is a speeding fine
Speaker 2: or whatever.
Speaker 3: It may be, no matter what the brand, because.
Speaker 2: You know, you need to understand what the ramifications of
Speaker 2: that document are that you might that might not have
Speaker 2: been pointed out to you, you know, as forthrightly as
Speaker 2: you expect.
Speaker 1: What was the banking history.
Speaker 3: This was a man who bought a car and in
Speaker 3: twenty eighteen, it was over six years and he thought
Speaker 3: it was outright because the FN I the financial insurance
Speaker 3: person and the dealership didn't mention anything about a balloon payment.
Speaker 3: He trusted his bank. He said he wanted to have
Speaker 3: a chat with a banking consultant, and the banking consultant
Speaker 3: didn't say anything about the balloon. So he says there's
Speaker 3: a there's a question mark around the call recordings. But
Speaker 3: the point of today's story, I read the banking division
Speaker 3: of the National Financial Abosments when he complained to them.
Speaker 3: They sided with the bank because all they had was
Speaker 3: the sound contract. And this is this is the advice.
Speaker 3: This is the paragraph that they shared with him in
Speaker 3: declining his case. And I think we all those of
Speaker 3: us that don't read before we sign, we all need
Speaker 3: to rarely listen very carefully to So this is what
Speaker 3: and I'm summarizing it was much bit longer than this,
Speaker 3: the adjudicator told them in writing. A complainant will not
Speaker 3: succeed in arguing that they did not read what they
Speaker 3: signed or that the contents do not reflect their intention.
Speaker 3: Our courts have handed down judgments over the years indicating
Speaker 3: that a party that signs a document without reading it
Speaker 3: assumes the risks, and if the said party does not
Speaker 3: like what is contained in the document. They cannot blame
Speaker 3: anybody else. That's very so, very clear.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, So do you sign a document at your
Speaker 2: risk You are attaching your commitment to its terms as
Speaker 2: they appear in that document. Whether or not you read
Speaker 2: them or thought there was something else is irrelevant. The
Speaker 2: terms you have signed to are the terms you were
Speaker 2: obliged to obey.
Speaker 3: Oby Having said that, I wish the courts and the
Speaker 3: legislators are the way around, would apply themselves to really
Speaker 3: looking carefully at these documents and actually giving very specific
Speaker 3: or legislating very specific requirements about what our listener was
Speaker 3: just saying. Put twelve month contract at the top, make
Speaker 3: it hard to miss, make people initial next to the
Speaker 3: sticky bits, the bits that could trip them up. I mean,
Speaker 3: it's a known fact that many people sign balloon deals
Speaker 3: and don't realize. Some might claim not to realize, but some, genuinely,
Speaker 3: I've dealt with enough of them, didn't realize. It wasn't
Speaker 3: said to them. They didn't read the contract. And that
Speaker 3: final payment is not in any bigger font, It doesn't
Speaker 3: require their signature. It will say seventy one payments of
Speaker 3: six thousand rand and one final payment of whatever seventy
Speaker 3: eighty thousand rand or more had with that nasty surprise.
Speaker 4: Yes, but they had it wasn't.
Speaker 3: It wasn't made absolutely hard to miss in the contract,
Speaker 3: and there's no excuse for that. That should be so,
Speaker 3: I think the legislators are missing a trickier fense of consumers.
Speaker 4: It should be.
Speaker 3: There should be more done to draw attention, to draw
Speaker 3: attention to the really important bits.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and it's easy to do that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, to put in a little box saying I hear
Speaker 2: by sign that I understand this to be a twelve
Speaker 2: month contract.
Speaker 1: For example, in Laarata's case.
Speaker 2: Tanya writing and to say, I lived in Harmanas and
Speaker 2: wanted to hit some balls at a driving range in
Speaker 2: the strand when I was visiting my mom for a weekend.
Speaker 2: Had a very similar experience. They also offered me a
Speaker 2: deal for the weekend, which I signed, only to discover
Speaker 2: it was for two years. I had signed that deal.
Speaker 2: I fought tooth and nail. I ended up paying three
Speaker 2: hundred rand art for two years. I was a professional golfer.
Speaker 2: I know the range rules well, but I fell for it.
Speaker 2: Hook line and sinker, says Tana.
Speaker 4: Thank you, for sharing that.
Speaker 3: That's very very yeah, so.
Speaker 2: Not only in the gym environment, Jay asking Ray the
Speaker 2: gym contract. Could LORAATA not simply lay a charge of
Speaker 2: fraud with the police with with what evidence? Yeah, she
Speaker 2: got no way of proving it's a he, she said, yeah,
Speaker 2: so so hens Matt, I want to prove it. Yeah, Okay,
Speaker 2: thank you so much. We're going to take a very
Speaker 2: short break and then come back with some other open
Speaker 2: line calls and happy to take some more open line
Speaker 2: questions as well. If you do want to keep on
Speaker 2: commenting on the gym contract issue though, and the issue
Speaker 2: of signing contracts without reading them, you're welcome to keep
Speaker 2: on sending those messages to seven two five six seven
Speaker 2: one five six seven.
Speaker 8: Consume and talk open line call. Oh two one double
Speaker 8: four six oh five six seven.
Speaker 2: Oh, we've got a doozy of a voice note in
Speaker 2: by the looks of thing, about another example of signing
Speaker 2: contracts without checking the fine print. Let's take a listen
Speaker 2: to what Ian has to say.
Speaker 6: Okay, what I suggestion is this a friend of mine
Speaker 6: signed a contracted by a house there was a fourtune
Speaker 6: day payment clause. She's try overseas and she can get
Speaker 6: the money, but not within the fourteen days. She's not
Speaker 6: in dispute because she can't get the money, but she
Speaker 6: has asked for a station and the seller has has
Speaker 6: denied that extension. But when signing the contract, she spoke
Speaker 6: to the state agent that exclaimed to the state agent
Speaker 6: that fourteen days is must be short. The state agent
Speaker 6: convinced her that she must sign the contract with the
Speaker 6: fourteen days clause because nobody ever sits in the clause
Speaker 6: and it's sure that the seller would be lenient if
Speaker 6: the money was slightly late. The seller is now not lenient.
Speaker 6: These state agents obviously not taking responsibility for this, and
Speaker 6: now my friend is in for could be end for
Speaker 6: potential damages because they're going to cancel the sell. Your
Speaker 6: comments would be appreciated year from Salamasha.
Speaker 1: Yikes.
Speaker 3: Never believe anyone assurances about things like that, anyone earning
Speaker 3: a commission, particularly earning a commission. I just can't. That
Speaker 3: is shocking, But I'm not the.
Speaker 4: First time I've heard that.
Speaker 3: Don't worry, just sign it. It's just a formality. It
Speaker 3: won't be enforced.
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, it doesn't matter what she told you.
Speaker 3: And even in some of these contracts, there will be
Speaker 3: a clause that says, no matter what assurances you were
Speaker 3: given by one of our representatives, it's null and void.
Speaker 3: Only only what's in this contract is valid and binding.
Speaker 3: So that is thank you for that. It's horrible. I
Speaker 3: hope it resolves without too much financial harm done.
Speaker 4: To your friend.
Speaker 2: Your friend, I mean, does she has can she take
Speaker 2: that up with the property practitioners.
Speaker 3: She's got to prove the person said it. If it
Speaker 3: was an email, she might have a chance. People who
Speaker 3: do that don't not normally that silly.
Speaker 1: As to put it in writing which bit of advice.
Speaker 3: On the fixed term contract thing? And it could be
Speaker 3: in any actually, in any situation, if you have anything
Speaker 3: around that's got a financial commitment from you, is taking
Speaker 3: if you if I don't agree with taking. I don't
Speaker 3: advise people to take out a contract on the phone.
Speaker 3: What insurance policy? But if you are going to do it,
Speaker 3: stop and make sure you have a recording app downloaded
Speaker 3: onto your phone and just take a beat to say
Speaker 3: I'm recording this, because they'd also give the person the
Speaker 3: other end pauses to.
Speaker 1: What promise yes?
Speaker 3: And and if you in a face to face situation
Speaker 3: and they don't give you a copy. Just realize you
Speaker 3: need to have proof of what you've agreed to, So
Speaker 3: take a picture with your phone and also record the
Speaker 3: sales process that don't freak them out if they are
Speaker 3: intending to pull the ball over your eyes. Okay, and
Speaker 3: you've got proof.
Speaker 2: This is the takeaway from the show, is your own evidence.
Speaker 2: Read the small print, never ever ever sign something that
Speaker 2: you haven't read, and create your own proof what you've said.
Speaker 1: Take photographs of that.
Speaker 2: If they're not giving you a copy of the documents,
Speaker 2: take photographs with your phone.
Speaker 1: Videos record the interaction.
Speaker 3: When I started in consumer journalism, we didn't have any
Speaker 3: of this technology at our fingertips. Make your cell phone
Speaker 3: spend work for you. You've got these unbelievable little computers
Speaker 3: with us all the time, most of us. You can
Speaker 3: use them to create your eviden and get you out
Speaker 3: of these sort of situations. So please, would you let
Speaker 3: us know what happens with your friend of our listeners.
Speaker 2: Still, I really hope she's able to extricate herself from that.
Speaker 2: Thank you for that, Maureen saying, medical centers another guilty
Speaker 2: party here who ask you to initial dozens of paragraphs
Speaker 2: and rush you through it without giving you time to
Speaker 2: read what you are signing, and also do not give
Speaker 2: you a copy of the contract to read after signing.
Speaker 3: Not okay as well, I would say out of them,
Speaker 3: but my experience, if I making a point or with
Speaker 3: a new medical service provider, they will send you the forms.
Speaker 3: You know they're doing it to save time to send
Speaker 3: them to you in advance. And I think that's a
Speaker 3: much better protocol because you have your own copy and
Speaker 3: then you have also the time the evening before to
Speaker 3: go through it and make sure you're happy with all
Speaker 3: the thought that was going to hold you to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, we're going to change check completely.
Speaker 2: Oh Sharon, just sorry before we leave this one, Sharon
Speaker 2: saying Jim. Contracts also have a clause allowing you to
Speaker 2: cancel within five or seven days of signing.
Speaker 1: They need to point that out as well.
Speaker 2: The sort of a cooling off clause. Is that a
Speaker 2: standard clause as far as you know, I mean, I
Speaker 2: know it is. It's essential if you've bought something online
Speaker 2: and I've had a change of heart, they have to
Speaker 2: give you that week's cooling off.
Speaker 3: If it's only if you only get legally the benefit
Speaker 3: of that clause automatically if it's as a result of
Speaker 3: direct selling, so they'll have, you know, a little stand
Speaker 3: in the middle of them all and they draw pull
Speaker 3: you in to say come, come, have this, have a
Speaker 3: free trial whatever. If that's the case, you then never
Speaker 3: seven day cooling off period because they initiated the whole
Speaker 3: thing out to you.
Speaker 2: So that wasn't the case in Larato's case because she
Speaker 2: went to them asking for it. They didn't come to
Speaker 2: her and say, hey, how about a gym contract? Okay,
Speaker 2: thanks for for the clericy and they have it.
Speaker 3: They should point it out, but it's not a legal
Speaker 3: requirement if you initiate the transact contact.
Speaker 2: Okay, great, all right, completely different up topic all together.
Speaker 1: We got a voice ride in from Robin. Let's take
Speaker 1: a listen.
Speaker 7: I could afternoon. My name is Robin, and I have
Speaker 7: a problem with William Simpson. I gave him my car
Speaker 7: to have it fixed. They held the car for I
Speaker 7: think it's nearly a year, but.
Speaker 10: To eleven months, and after the eleven month, after complaining
Speaker 10: and saying, oh for was the progress, they just gave
Speaker 10: my car back without fixing it. And for that eleven
Speaker 10: months I stood on the roof of the building in
Speaker 10: the sun and it damaged the paint to the point
Speaker 10: where the paint was peeling off my car from standing
Speaker 10: in the elements not covered or And then they gave
Speaker 10: it back with the flat wheel and a dead battery
Speaker 10: and it was a lot of scratches and damage and
Speaker 10: they just said, sorry, we couldn't fix your car. This
Speaker 10: is eleven months later. When I complained, they said, I'm sorry,
Speaker 10: but according to you know what act, there's nothing they
Speaker 10: can do and they just dropped it.
Speaker 7: I need some assistance.
Speaker 10: Please point me in the right addition, because now I'm
Speaker 10: sitting with double the miss.
Speaker 7: The car must be fixed.
Speaker 10: I went through in a team to hijacking because I
Speaker 10: didn't have a vehicle to borrow a vehicle from somebody,
Speaker 10: And while I was waiting for my car to be fixed,
Speaker 10: I went through the team to hijacking. Tsuna, I'm must
Speaker 10: pay for this person's call that I borrowed that they
Speaker 10: tried to isijac.
Speaker 7: I have to pay for that to be fixed, and
Speaker 7: I must pay for my vehicle.
Speaker 10: I think it's grossly unfair and I need help desperately.
Speaker 2: Please, Wendy, how are your face?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: No, I'm so sorry. Robin, that's just a really difficult one.
Speaker 3: First of all, to hold them blable for the state
Speaker 3: of the car, you would have to have evidence of,
Speaker 3: you know, with the state of the car beforehand. So
Speaker 3: you know, it's the kind of thing that the dealers
Speaker 3: will do when they're trying to sell you a car,
Speaker 3: so very close up pictures and videos of the state
Speaker 3: of the car, so that you can prove this is
Speaker 3: what the car was like, and this is what it's like.
Speaker 1: What do you give it back to me like?
Speaker 4: And this is a case for a lawyer.
Speaker 3: This really I can't see and that's going to that's
Speaker 3: care experence on top of I mean just I mean,
Speaker 3: this is useless advanced for you now, but I would
Speaker 3: never leave a car for eleven months. Get involved, find
Speaker 3: out what they're doing with their car. Is it being
Speaker 3: looked after properly?
Speaker 4: What is the delay?
Speaker 3: I mean, you should know within a month or two
Speaker 3: if you're looking at whether parts are available, when they're coming,
Speaker 3: what the scenario is for it to go on as
Speaker 3: long as eleven months, it's seldom going to end well.
Speaker 3: So just to you know, be very involved with the
Speaker 3: process and you know, document what your car is like.
Speaker 3: When it went in the mileage, all of that, the
Speaker 3: full condition of the car, and then you know, be involved.
Speaker 3: Don't let six seven eight, nineteen eleven months go by
Speaker 3: without checking on the condition of the car and getting
Speaker 3: really solid, detailed feedback on what is called it causing
Speaker 3: the delay, so that you then at that point have
Speaker 3: the option to pull the car away. He doesn't say
Speaker 3: what he pay them so far and for them if
Speaker 3: if anything, but but I mean fact sometimes the cherry
Speaker 3: on top is these dealerships then want the people to
Speaker 3: pay them storage.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's ridiculous.
Speaker 3: So sorry, my aunt is more adviced for other people
Speaker 3: than helpful for Robin.
Speaker 1: I'm rob and take that to the ombit.
Speaker 3: They wouldn't deal with something like that. It's not a
Speaker 3: mechanical issue. Maybe the consumer goods and services on board
Speaker 3: is an option because that's a service provision. I mean
Speaker 3: that the product happens to be a car, but it
Speaker 3: could be a watcher, it could be at table or anything, so.
Speaker 2: Okay, so might perhaps that's the interim step before you
Speaker 2: spend money on lawyers. Robin is to try and approach
Speaker 2: the consumer goods and services on But and he wants.
Speaker 3: To look we technically even named the service for about it.
Speaker 3: If he wants to send me an email, I could
Speaker 3: give them the right of reply. I think we probably
Speaker 3: should do that.
Speaker 2: Yeahs named Okay, so Robin, if you could send an
Speaker 2: email to Wendy on Consumer at Nola dot co dot
Speaker 2: z spelled kno w l e R. She knows a
Speaker 2: lot about consumer affairs Consumer at Nola dot co dot ze.
Speaker 2: Just set out what you've explained to us, the date
Speaker 2: that you dropped the car off, the date it was retrieved,
Speaker 2: the damage that you have mentioned in that voice, note
Speaker 2: the particular branch that you had left it at, who
Speaker 2: you've been dealing with there, et cetera. We can ask
Speaker 2: Wendy to reach out to them and see if we
Speaker 2: can offer them a response to explain how this came about.
Speaker 1: And BC if there's a way to define some restitution.
Speaker 1: We have to leave it there.
Speaker 2: Wendy, as always, thank you so much for being with us,
Speaker 2: and at least we have a win this week for
Speaker 2: a writers