WEBVTT - Consumer Talk: Fine print on contracts 0:00:00.880 --> 0:00:06.920 Lunch with Pipper Hudson and now Consumer Talk featuring Wendy Nola. 0:00:09.000 --> 0:00:11.160 It is time for Consumer Talk, and Wendy Nola is 0:00:11.200 --> 0:00:14.280 with us in studio today, ready to tackle the story 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:17.080 of a listener struggle to extricate herself from a gym 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:20.600 contract she hadn't realized she was signing up for. What 0:00:20.720 --> 0:00:23.360 was in the fine print that the salesperson hadn't mentioned 0:00:23.720 --> 0:00:27.040 in their conversation is the key element of the story today, 0:00:27.040 --> 0:00:29.720 and it's one what all of us can learn from. 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:31.880 So we're going to be hearing from that listener in 0:00:32.000 --> 0:00:35.120 just a moment to describe what happened. But I'm sure 0:00:35.120 --> 0:00:37.680 that there are many people listening who've had similar experiences. 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:40.400 You might want to comment or share their thoughts with us. 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:43.400 What's ups to seven two five six seven one five 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:45.920 six seven if you would like to join the conversation. 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:47.239 Always love you to have you with us. 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:48.960 Wendy, Thank you, Papa, good to be here. 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:52.239 So our complainert this week is doctor l Raton toemvem there, 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:54.920 who is a medical doctor practicing in our public service. 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:57.160 And I say that to emphasize the fact this is 0:00:57.200 --> 0:00:59.920 a highly intelligent, well educated woman and If it could 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:01.880 happened to her, it could happen to any of us. 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:05.480 And that's why I specifically mentioned that she is also 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:08.480 the mother of a fifteen year old boy who simply 0:01:08.520 --> 0:01:10.959 wanted to go to the gym with his friends for 0:01:11.240 --> 0:01:15.200 one evening, one night only, as the saying goes, and 0:01:15.240 --> 0:01:16.880 that is where the drama all began. 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:18.160 Wendy, tell us what happens. 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:23.679 Okay, So there was a request Lato asked on her 0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:25.600 son's behalf if you could use the gym just for 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:29.520 that one single evening and to join his friends. So 0:01:29.560 --> 0:01:34.080 this was Virgin active in Tiger's Valley, and a staff 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:37.000 member at the gym said, yes, of course, you can. 0:01:36.840 --> 0:01:38.600 Pay three hundred rand. 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:42.000 And he'll be able to train for the whole month. 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:45.559 So she thought, okay, that's fine. She whipped out the card, 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:51.000 paid on the little point of purchase machine and was 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:56.400 asked to sign a document authorizing, because he's a minor, 0:01:56.640 --> 0:01:59.880 authorizing her son to use the facilities, which she was told. 0:01:59.880 --> 0:02:00.640 And then. 0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:05.960 She believed what she was told, and so she signed 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:09.000 the document without reading it, as so many people do. 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:11.040 This is not going to be a judge show. As 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:14.200 much as I've spent decades telling people to please read 0:02:14.240 --> 0:02:16.800 this small print. There have been times if I wasn't 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:18.480 in this job that I wouldn't have either, to be 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:23.639 quite honest, And so this happened in late June. 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:26.320 A month later she. 0:02:26.520 --> 0:02:33.240 Was contacted by the sales consultant. She never they never connected. 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:36.079 And a month after that she was contacted and asked 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:37.960 when she's going to make payment, and that's when she 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:41.040 found out that she'd actually signed a twelve month contract 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:43.440 for her son at four hundred and fifty round a month. 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:45.160 So that's and that three. 0:02:45.000 --> 0:02:47.040 Hundred round that she paid was actually the if you 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:51.079 looked in the contract, it's the joining fee. So that 0:02:51.160 --> 0:02:54.120 commitment with a joining fore you were signing that contract 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:57.799 border commitment up to just under six thousand and five 0:02:57.880 --> 0:02:59.520 to seven and. 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:02.080 Seven round for one night's train is what it is. 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:05.399 What it came to because he literally only went that way. 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:09.400 He went for the month he went because remember they 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:11.200 said if you can, if you pay this three hundred 0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:13.639 rand to ninety nine, he can gym for the month. 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:16.120 And she thought, okay, it was part of it. It was holidays, 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:18.560 and she thought, cool, three hundred rand, that's fair enough. 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:20.560 I'll do that, okay, But it turned out to be 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:24.679 closer to five thy seven hundred. And when she objected, 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:27.160 of course, she was told, you can cancel the contract, 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:29.480 but there will be a hefty cancelation fee. As we've 0:03:29.480 --> 0:03:32.400 spoken about many times, fixed term contracts, do you have 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:34.040 that laws written into all of them? 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:41.800 Cell phone, gym, alarmed your armed response contracts, all of them. 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:43.360 So you can cancel and get out of it early, 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:45.920 but they're entitled to take a cancelation fee. And as 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:48.400 you've told us many times before, Wendy, it's not specified 0:03:48.720 --> 0:03:51.119 how much or how little that cancelation fee should. 0:03:50.920 --> 0:03:51.480 Be the act. 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:53.360 It isn't, but it should be in the contract. That's 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:55.000 always something to look for, okay. 0:03:55.160 --> 0:03:57.320 So this is, as you say, a classic example the 0:03:57.320 --> 0:04:01.400 mistakes so many people make of signings something without reading 0:04:01.440 --> 0:04:04.840 every last word of it, but also of taking for 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:07.640 granted that what the salesperson is telling you is what 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:08.840 they're putting in the document. 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:11.400 We absorb knowledge like that. It's easier to look at 0:04:11.400 --> 0:04:15.680 someone in the eye and take note of what they're saying, right, 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:18.080 and so there's an element of trust with it's a 0:04:18.120 --> 0:04:22.480 bank or insure or a gym. You have this natural innate. Well, 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:28.239 you've told me all everything our sun and what you're told, 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:32.080 and there are those who will take advantage of that, 0:04:32.160 --> 0:04:34.560 and that's I mean people they're earning a commission. Let's 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:37.440 not forget, and you've just got to understand and be 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:41.520 It's not everyone, not by long. But I'm just saying 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:44.320 it happens. I get the complaints. I don't hear when 0:04:44.320 --> 0:04:46.680 it all goes beautifully, but you see the one. There's 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:51.640 a vulnerability there for us as consumers. So I almost 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:55.320 didn't take up the writer's case because I've taken up 0:04:55.360 --> 0:04:58.080 so many. It doesn't there's no recording of who said 0:04:58.080 --> 0:05:01.320 what in the sales process. All there is is proof 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:04.200 of what the agreement was is the contract with the 0:05:04.200 --> 0:05:05.280 person's signature on it. 0:05:05.320 --> 0:05:07.560 And she does not dispute that she signed the contract. 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:10.560 Does not dispute that. And in fact I actually said 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:12.720 to her initially, I'm sorry, this is the case, and 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:14.599 this is why I spend so much of my work 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:16.360 time giving this advice. 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:16.760 Over and over. 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:20.800 And then I woke up and I thought, ah, she 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:23.400 didn't get a copy of the contract. Now, the Act 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:27.120 says when you sign in person, the service provider must 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:30.760 must not may must provide you with a copy of 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:33.000 what you've signed so for her not to walk away. 0:05:33.040 --> 0:05:35.720 She only saw the contract when when she realized that 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:37.719 she signed, and obviously she said, well, I don't have 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:40.159 a copy, please give it to me. And because of that, 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:43.680 I thought there's a window here, there's a chance that 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:44.520 I can help her. 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:46.960 Okay, So we've got Lorata with us on the line. 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:48.680 Let's bring her in at this point and say thank 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:50.680 you so much. Firstly, Lorata, welcome to the show, but 0:05:50.800 --> 0:05:52.599 thank you for being willing to share your story on 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:55.120 air so that others can learn from your experience. 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:57.080 It's wonderful to have you with us this afternoon. 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:00.760 Hi, Prepa and Wendy, you think, no, thank you for 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:01.240 having me. 0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:04.160 It's our pleasure. So take us back to the moment 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:06.039 when you got that phone call. Well, in fact, let's 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:08.680 go further back when you had that first engagement in 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:11.200 June with the person who said to you, sure your 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:14.520 son can train for three hundred rand for a month. Did, 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:18.000 as far as you recall, did anybody say anything during 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:20.920 that conversation about the possibility of there being a longer 0:06:21.040 --> 0:06:23.800 contract beyond the end of a month. 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:28.640 Quite to the contrary, I kept on saying to this person, 0:06:29.040 --> 0:06:32.479 I am not trying to get into a contract. We 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:35.760 just want to train for today and ns me how 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:36.200 it goes. 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:36.720 I'm not. 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:40.960 I was very specific, I don't want a contract. And 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:44.640 then yeah, so there was no debit order set up. 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:46.640 So then that's why I was like, it can be 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:50.479 a contract. So no one said this is going to 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:52.320 go on for twelve months. Definitely not. 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:54.480 That's the point I'm hearing for the first time here, 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:56.680 Rato that and I should affought to ask you. There 0:06:56.720 --> 0:06:58.919 was no debit order mandate, so that also gave you 0:06:59.000 --> 0:07:01.560 comfort and to want to head your phone you to say, well, 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:05.240 you've got a contract, now, aren't you paying? Okay? 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:08.440 So then I was like if because I've had a 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:12.080 virgin active contract before and it was just like the 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:14.520 devil order would go. So I told the person the 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:19.360 call center that I didn't even sign it. So there 0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:23.920 is in my in my mind, there's no contract. 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:26.080 Here, Okayta. 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:29.200 I also believe that there was very good reason why 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:31.720 you didn't want to even consider taking out a longer 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:34.720 term contract because you knew very well that your son 0:07:34.720 --> 0:07:35.920 would not be able to use it. 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:36.040 Not. 0:07:36.160 --> 0:07:40.440 So yes, already. It was June, so he was scheduled 0:07:40.440 --> 0:07:44.559 for a knee surgery in that was going to happen 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:50.360 in September. So there's no ways I would. 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:50.680 He would have been out of action for months. 0:07:51.000 --> 0:07:54.000 Yes, And I kept on telling them, but you okay. 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:56.760 So so you get the phone call saying, hey, you 0:07:56.800 --> 0:07:59.120 owe us some money for your latest month subscription, and 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:00.560 you say to them, what subscription? 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:01.440 I don't have one. 0:08:02.480 --> 0:08:05.520 That was the first time anybody spoke about giving you 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:07.840 a copy of the contract Lerata when you asked for one, 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:10.720 were they willing to supply it straight away? 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:16.760 I must be honor. I didn't even ask for a 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:19.520 contract when they called me. I was just like, I 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:24.400 will come into the to the facility, to the gym 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:29.280 and sot this out myself face to face, because yeah, 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:31.080 I didn't even ask for one. 0:08:31.560 --> 0:08:34.640 Okay, So you were given did you? You were presumably 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:36.040 given one when you went into the branch. 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:40.680 No. No, no. When I left there after signing and 0:08:40.720 --> 0:08:44.280 my son was jimming, there was no documents. 0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:45.559 I mean afterwards. 0:08:45.559 --> 0:08:48.480 So only once you queried and they said to you, well, 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:49.559 we've got to sign a contract. 0:08:49.760 --> 0:08:50.840 That was the first time. 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:54.960 Once I queried. Yes, then they sent me the which 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:58.760 now like either read this time and I saw actually 0:08:58.800 --> 0:09:03.040 a contract. I didn't read that time because I trusted 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:04.319 what you were saying is what. 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:06.839 Yeah, so many people do. 0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:09.480 And so many of us. Would Narata please stay with us. 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:11.840 Let's wear from Wendy what happened when she took this 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:14.440 case to Virgin Active. So when you heard the details 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:18.080 and realize there's more to this story than just signing 0:09:18.080 --> 0:09:18.720 without looking. 0:09:18.920 --> 0:09:21.720 Yeah, the contract, the missing copy of the contract was 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:22.240 was the key thing. 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:23.200 That's a bit of ammunition. 0:09:23.440 --> 0:09:23.720 Okay. 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:26.120 So you then reached out to to Virgin Active Tiger 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:29.080 Valley and questioned why Lourata hadn't been given a copy 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:31.280 of the contract that she had signed, amongst other things. 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:32.199 What response to do? 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:34.280 You actually went, as I always do, to the head 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:37.680 of customer service, Jackie Walter. Okay, that's Virgin Active. And 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:40.760 she began by saying that as a rule, all Virgin 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:43.200 Active members are provided with a copy of their signed 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:48.040 membership agreement because they generated digitally and are automatically emailed 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:51.240 within five minutes of authorization by our club administrator. And 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:53.320 I must say I have had personal experience of that. 0:09:55.040 --> 0:09:57.520 But she said during a review this year, we identified 0:09:57.559 --> 0:09:59.440 that at the end of June of this year, a 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:03.040 temporary I error caused a small number of agreements not 0:10:03.120 --> 0:10:06.679 to be emailed automatically. This was quickly resolved. All impacted 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:11.080 contracts were attached to member profile to ensure transparency and accuracy. 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:13.439 Notice attached to the profile. But they're not seeing. 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:16.800 Su Yes, riter didn't know she had a member profile 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:18.280 because she didn't know she was a member. 0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:24.320 No, ye, okay, she said. Jackie says, our contracts are 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:29.520 deliberately clear, with key terms membership type, duration and monthly 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:36.160 fee highlighted and requiring signatures. Well, she's not initials next 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:40.400 to each one, Otherwise Lata's attention would have been drawn 0:10:40.440 --> 0:10:43.120 to it. I have a big problem in all contracts 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:46.160 main contracts, ever, and I'm going, if you're saying they're clear, 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:48.520 why not have them initial right there? And then I'll 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:51.920 never get a straight answer on that. No memberships can 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:54.720 be initiated by the sound contract. We expect members, all 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:58.800 the adults representing a minor to take make I think 0:10:58.840 --> 0:11:02.640 she maan take responsibility for having read the details before signing. 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:09.920 Sales consultants or trained regularly compliance checks on place any substantiatedness. 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:13.400 Representation results in disc action, and I think the problem here, 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:17.000 as always is substantiated because unless you're making your own 0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:18.680 recording of you've got. 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:20.199 Action, you have zero proof. 0:11:20.360 --> 0:11:24.400 Exactly. We appreciate the nature of commission based sales and 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:27.920 for that reason, Virgin Active sales and centives are specifically 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:30.920 structured to promote high quality sales, where members who terminate 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:35.200 early results in lower commissions. Okay, in doctor Bember's case, 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:37.680 we can confirm that her son's agreement fold within the 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:40.439 window where the IT error occurred, and the contract was 0:11:40.480 --> 0:11:44.280 not automatically sent. This was an entirely unintended error and 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:45.319 the sales agent. 0:11:45.120 --> 0:11:46.840 Could not have had any influence on this. 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:50.480 We checked the member's access history. Basically, they're saying he 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:53.640 only did gym for that one month that they thought 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:54.320 they had paid. 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:56.040 That's what they thought, that three hundred rand for you. 0:11:56.760 --> 0:12:03.320 The consultant question that Lata Dorata said, Jackie, that Raja 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:05.880 said that she dealt with He's been with Virgin Actor 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:07.800 for more than five years and he has a strong 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:12.800 track record. Is that Jim has no prior history of misrepresentation. 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:16.760 He recalls the interaction clearly and maintains that the terms 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:21.080 were explained consistent with the Sound contract. I will, yeah, 0:12:21.280 --> 0:12:23.079 maybe we should bring Larato intercomment on that. 0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:24.040 Okay, so there we go. 0:12:24.160 --> 0:12:26.120 I mean, Larata, as you've said to us before, you 0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:29.760 remember it very very differently. So just to say categorically again, 0:12:29.800 --> 0:12:33.000 at any point in your recollection, did he explain to 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:34.840 you that what you were signing up for was in 0:12:34.880 --> 0:12:37.960 fact a twelve month contract and not a one month contract. 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:43.520 Definitely not, Definitely he did not say that, and I 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:46.199 he couldn't have said that because I kept on saying 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:49.000 and not. I don't under contracts at this point. 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:52.920 Okay, all right, So, as you said, Wendy's it's a 0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:55.440 difficult one because Larata has no proof of what he 0:12:55.520 --> 0:12:58.600 said to her because that interaction was not recorded. The 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:02.000 only written proof is the contract which exists and does 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:04.480 have her signature on, at which she concedes having side 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:06.960 bagally binding. But we did have a happy ending in. 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:11.840 Jackie walteron Ahead of Customer Service at Virgin Active said, 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:14.520 while the Sound contract is valid and clearly outlines the 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:18.439 twelve month terms agreed to agreed by the payer and guardian, 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:23.760 we do recognize the context cam which we've described considering this, 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:26.080 we were prepared to make a once oft goodwill exception 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:28.600 and cancel the contract at no cost and refund any 0:13:28.640 --> 0:13:35.040 fees deducted. So that was great, and I'm so pleased 0:13:35.080 --> 0:13:37.200 that I had actually woken up that morning and thought, no, 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:38.120 I have to take this up. 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:38.800 Let's just try. 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:42.040 Yeh, let's just try. When I took up the case, though, 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:45.320 I said that I'd heard these allegations made about Jim Seals, 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:47.800 and not just with one brand across the board, but 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:52.599 Jim Sales consultants not being completely upfront about all the 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:55.680 terms in the contract, and I've heard them for many, 0:13:55.720 --> 0:13:58.440 many years now. I said, all the complainants can't be 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:01.480 making it up, and the gyms have to know that 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:04.679 misrepresentation is a problem in some cases, even if it's 0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:08.000 in the minority of cases that they are earning commission. 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:10.840 So I asked, what is virgin active due to limit this? 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:14.000 Has any monitoring policy been introduced in the last five 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:14.960 or ten years? 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:15.360 Then? 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:18.199 I said, technology makes monetory easy and in expensive. Why 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:21.280 not require that with all face to face interactions leading 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:24.680 up to an agreement sign up, that there's they recorded. 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:27.440 I mean, we have these devices on our phone. Technology 0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:29.360 makes everything quick and easy. 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:31.280 Right, It would be so easy to hit record and 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:33.480 just make a recording of the whole conversation. 0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:36.200 The salesperson must be heard telling it like it is, 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:39.080 so in the largest case, saying right, you're two nineteen 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:41.120 nine as you're joining fee. The minimum contract we have 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:43.200 is twelve months. You're going to be paying four fifty. 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:45.920 If you need want to cancel before that, you're going 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:48.200 to have to pay a cancelation penalty. This is a woman. 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:50.440 I mean, think about the balance of probabilities here. Whose 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:52.000 son is going to go in for an operation in 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:54.640 September which is going to render him unable to gym 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:56.200 for months. I mean, you have the operator and then 0:14:56.200 --> 0:14:56.680 he's got. 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:00.000 One crutches after sales crutches exactly. 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:05.520 And he said walking stick. So the answer was, and 0:15:05.600 --> 0:15:10.720 I said, if armed with such a recording, if a 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:13.640 new member or their period of guardian later logism is 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:17.280 selling complaint, that recording could be sourced, and just knowing 0:15:17.320 --> 0:15:19.560 that they are being recorded would surely be a deterrent 0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:24.560 to sells consultants who feel tempted to fudge the truth. 0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:27.880 Yeah, that was the response. 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:31.880 Was while recording all face to face into actions is 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:34.720 not feasible due to the nature of the inn club 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:38.520 sales process and a number of off site activations. I mean, 0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:39.920 those are just words as far as I'm going to do. 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:40.760 They don't make any scene. 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:42.560 They're saying they're too many of these and they happen 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:44.560 in too many places, is what I'm reading. And I'm 0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:47.240 saying that's nonsense, because Elergy is a cell phone on 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:49.840 them and you can hit record on it doesn't matter 0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:52.280 where you are, whether you're in the gen or advertising 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:53.160 in the shopping center, and. 0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:56.120 They're not initially next to the actual it's four one 0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:58.280 hundred and fifty rand four twelve months. 0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:01.400 We your attention to that you have, so that's a 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:03.920 bit of a carpard. I think, okay, let's just before 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:05.280 we must hand over to the news team. 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:06.040 Larato. 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:08.320 I mean obviously a one for you in that that 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:10.440 the amount has been reversed and you're off the hook 0:16:10.480 --> 0:16:12.720 for the rest of the contract. But I'm sure you 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:14.640 you've learned a lesson or two in the process. 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:23.520 Anything before I sign you, Yeah, before we let you go. 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:25.200 I hope your son is all right as you had 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:27.080 your surgery, as he back on his feet. 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:35.400 Yes, he so has the breath and stick. 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:35.440 He is okay. So there's the proof. 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:38.960 Absolutely if anybody darted Larata's story that he would not 0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:39.880 be able to use the chair. 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:42.240 Well, the Rata, we wish him well and you well. 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:44.560 Thank you very much for for being prepared to share 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:45.880 the story with us on air today. 0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:50.280 Thank you, thank you, thank you to repay. 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:53.840 You as you've just have. You've come on and shared 0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:54.360 your story with. 0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:55.920 That absolutely and if you could see the smile on 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:58.200 Wendy's space, that's that I think she is. She considered 0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:00.800 herself repaid with that, thank you to thank you for that. 0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:07.440 CAPSL Consumer Talk WhatsApp on seven t five six seven 0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:09.200 one five six seven. 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:13.399 We're still talking about the gym contract that was for 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:16.240 something entirely different from what the purchase of thought she 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:19.280 was signing up for. And we've got a couple of 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:22.440 people responding with kind of me too stories and follow 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:26.280 up comments and questions. Let's start with Chammayin, who says 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:28.840 I had exactly the same scam happened to me many 0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:31.639 years ago. I signed up for a so called trial 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:34.159 period only to find that and actually signed on for 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:38.040 three years. The employee was not there anymore. When I 0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:40.400 tried to query it. I only managed to get out 0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:42.639 of it with a doctor's certificate because my husband had 0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:45.720 Alzheimer's and literally could not visit the gym. It wasn't 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:50.880 a Virgin Active though in that case, says Charmaine. Jacintha says, 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:53.320 I took out a contract last year with Virgin Active 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:55.960 in September for a particular amount. 0:17:56.320 --> 0:17:58.120 In December, I was charged. 0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:00.439 At the new annual rate, which I found very annoying 0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:02.280 because I hadn't even been with them for a year, 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:05.040 only two months, and then got hit with an increase. 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:06.240 Is that allowable? 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:10.600 It is allowable if it's in their contract. It's what 0:18:10.800 --> 0:18:15.200 happens with self and contracts. All the network service providers 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:17.359 do it. It drives people mad because we don't have 0:18:17.440 --> 0:18:20.960 the right to unilaterally decide during the course of a 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:26.080 fixed term contract that we're going to pay less. We 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:29.159 are committed to that legally, and yet the clause in 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:33.160 the small print allows them to increase. Look when they 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:35.320 do it, they don't normally do it by amounts that 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:39.800 would really really create so much bad will that they 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:41.200 battle to sign up anyone new. 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:42.760 You know, there'd be a big media and. 0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:46.040 Social media storm, but they do do it. I mostly 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:49.560 get complaints about self and contracts, but on occasion that 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:51.040 gyms do it, but less often. 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:52.119 Okay, thanks for that. 0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:55.119 Phil says, my son is a lawyer and he is 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:57.440 the one in the family who reads all and any 0:18:57.600 --> 0:19:01.240 contract before he signs anything. He doesn't allow anyone to 0:19:01.280 --> 0:19:03.720 push him into it. He does have the advantage and 0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:04.879 that he speaks legal. 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:05.680 I love that. 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:08.119 Phrase, But Phil says, I am also trying to be 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:10.560 more careful. It's yeah, it's great if you've got one 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:12.560 in the family who can check things for you as well. 0:19:12.600 --> 0:19:16.000