1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: Seven two, a big interview Taxi bosses, politicians and criminal 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 1: cartels are being connected in a violent nexus of attempted murders, 3 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: bribes and violence. Yesterday, the Sunday Times reporting of a 4 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 1: power struggle amongst houting taxi shadow world figures vying for 5 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:26,479 Speaker 1: control of the Big five cartel whose criminal tentacles reach 6 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: across the country already accuse the Nightlannger Commission has been 7 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: told of this network that's deeply involved in drug trafficking, 8 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: tender fraud, kidnappings, contract killings, cross border vehicle hijackings, and 9 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: it seems there are protected by politicians and law enforcement. 10 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: So is this simply a turf war or are we 11 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: seeing the exposure of a deeply embedded criminal ecosystem operating 12 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: in plain sight. One of the writers of that stunning 13 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: piece in the Sunday Times yesterday was investigative journalist Sabe Lositi, 14 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: who joins us now, Samone, always a pleasure to chat 15 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: to you. Thank you for your time this morning. 16 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 2: Ah right, good morning as well. 17 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 1: You would have heard many South Africans throwing this phrase 18 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: mafia state reading your piece yesterday. Are we a mafia state? 19 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:25,479 Speaker 2: Well? I think Burani given the sort of the work 20 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 2: that we've done on the story, and I think the 21 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 2: thing that we've seen and the picture that's beginning to 22 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 2: emerge for us about you know what the so called 23 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 2: Pig five. Katau I would certainly say, so, you know, 24 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 2: I mean, we're the revelation that we've seen obviously in 25 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:46,039 Speaker 2: the Madlano Commission show you just how deeply entrenched members 26 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 2: of these cutaos are involved in sort of the proatureman 27 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 2: space in government. And of course the city of Twine 28 00:01:52,920 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 2: and the City of Agrulin are not the only ones. 29 00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 2: If you move down to Casadain, for instance, you've got 30 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 2: the same sort of influence in municipal tenders, in provincial 31 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 2: government tenders, and in some of these state owned entities. 32 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 2: So for me, this is what I think that the 33 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 2: thing has been for us through this journey is seeing 34 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 2: you always had the sort of criminal underworld within the 35 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 2: taxi world. Ye had the criminal underworld in that trafficking 36 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 2: and all of that, But what we're beginning to see 37 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 2: now is that it's much more organized than what we thought. 38 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 2: You know, the Big Five, for instance, consists of individuals 39 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 2: that exist in all these worlds, and then you've got 40 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 2: the violence attached to the people like the cat Matalas 41 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 2: and the killers for hire, you know, and then you 42 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 2: have the influence again across the country that these people 43 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 2: are able to have over politicians, very senior politicians across 44 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 2: the political spectrum, and and then these institutions of. 45 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,919 Speaker 1: I mean, reading your piece, it's clear there's an extensive 46 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:00,799 Speaker 1: breakdown of the rule of law. As you and your 47 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: colleagues worked on the story, what would you say stood 48 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:08,639 Speaker 1: out for you as perhaps the most alarming or unexpected revelation. 49 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 2: Well, I think for me, and I mean, I'm know 50 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 2: this is going to sound pretty strange. Money is that 51 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 2: what we've been sort of hit with I think in 52 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 2: the last sort of six seven months publicly is just how, 53 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 2: you know, how compromised our law enforcement agencies are. You know, 54 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 2: the fact that the police are now seen as you know, 55 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 2: probably part of the criminals. It's not that they're seen 56 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 2: as people that actually are not very useful when it 57 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 2: comes to work. The heartening thing for me when we 58 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 2: got insight into the investigation was just how much work 59 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 2: actually the police put in in this particular story. I mean, 60 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 2: if you look at the fact that they were able 61 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 2: to place the suspects in a situation where inside look Away, 62 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 2: outside the restaurant where tram where saw Chelsea Bannu and 63 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 2: you was sitting, they were there. They could trace them, 64 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 2: They could trace their connections on cell phones. They then 65 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 2: could trace them via number one the tall countries on 66 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 2: the freeway and then also again via cell phone towers 67 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 2: as they moved then from Branston to Centurion ultimately where 68 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 2: you know the time took place. And then you know, 69 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 2: for the vehicle that was using the commission of that 70 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 2: crime disappearing off the threway within minutes of the shooting, 71 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 2: they were able to actually trace it I think through 72 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 2: two or three different owners right to its current owner, 73 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 2: retrieved the vehicle match the evidence that was picked up 74 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 2: at the scene to the current vehicle, even though the 75 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 2: vehicle at the time had been wrapped in a different color, 76 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 2: you know. And I think for me, these are the 77 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:46,559 Speaker 2: things that should give South Africans hope, but then should 78 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 2: also make us demand of the same sort of services 79 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 2: in all these cases, you know, because for me it 80 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 2: just then again showed me that the capability is there 81 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 2: within the police service. And perhaps you know, the capture 82 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 2: of the police is that we've been seeing in the majanas. 83 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 2: You know, that might just be a bit deeper, because 84 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:06,680 Speaker 2: there's certainly was an anomaly in terms of how the 85 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:08,359 Speaker 2: police deal with crime and so afflat. 86 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I read your piece and it felt very 87 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 1: much like, you know, the script of you know, a 88 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 1: drama series, a crime series, or indeed a crime movie. 89 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:21,480 Speaker 1: Let's just go through some of the details of that. 90 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:24,600 Speaker 1: And I suppose I want to start it with the 91 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: death of Jothamsim CB that really was the cat that 92 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:31,799 Speaker 1: set all of this among the pigeons. 93 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, look, I mean and and and I think 94 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 2: for me again it's important tou was it sort of 95 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,720 Speaker 2: pulls back, you know, to to to to to to 96 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 2: to those connections that I was making earlier, we had 97 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 2: only sort of, you know, whatever conflicts that took place 98 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 2: in the taxi world or conflicts that were happening, you know, 99 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 2: as part of what we used to call textual violence. 100 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 2: But what we're seeing now is because you then have 101 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 2: you know, the involvement of the truck the truck dealing 102 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 2: cartels as well now as well as the relationship with 103 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 2: the politics, you can see now that the tussle was 104 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 2: actually beyond a taxi violence thing. It was a tussle 105 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 2: for control, you know, and for space within these cartels, 106 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 2: because we know now that these cutels come with far 107 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 2: more lucrative you know, enrichment than what you would nominicate 108 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 2: in the taxi industry, because you're now talking about people 109 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 2: that are controlling for human everywhere. And of course there 110 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,359 Speaker 2: had been this verbal agreement between these two sort of 111 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,760 Speaker 2: big giants in the taxi world. This was for our 112 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:40,159 Speaker 2: INCV sorry for our Subanuni and then to Cibo on 113 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 2: the other side. The agreement was that there was going 114 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 2: to be a peaceful transision in that Sibanuini being the 115 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 2: understudy of the latent sol as you of course, would 116 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 2: have then come in you know and taken over when 117 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:56,720 Speaker 2: the man reached retirement. And of course the closer it got, 118 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 2: which we now know to be around twenty nineteen twenty twenty, 119 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 2: there was a changing of mind where, you know, so 120 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 2: rather than felt that, you know what, I think, I 121 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 2: might still want to go on forever. And a chilling 122 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,240 Speaker 2: quote for me that sub has in his acetabit is 123 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 2: when the guy told him that in the text industry 124 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 2: you work until you die. That of course was like 125 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 2: a thing that. I think it sent chills through him 126 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 2: as well, because immediately after that conversation he then started 127 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 2: stepping up back a bit to a point where there 128 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 2: was when a confrontation where the guy said, you know, 129 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:34,800 Speaker 2: I can see that you're moving a bit further away 130 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 2: from me. He then, of course, in his response, reminds 131 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 2: him that you have tried to kill me before, you know. 132 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 2: And then of course that will culminate into that nineteen 133 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 2: two thousand and two outside the Centurion Golfer State where 134 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 2: he taught twice in the stomach. 135 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: And that's really what you were saying. The police were 136 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 1: able to do is to track the vehicles, coordinate with 137 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 1: their devices for arm Paul in terms of their location, 138 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: when the phone calls were made to whom, by whom, 139 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: And all of this evidence points, along with whatever CCTV 140 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: footage they might have, All of this points to the 141 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: suspects that have been arrested. But I want to talk 142 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 1: for a little bit about the current Santaco president. This 143 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 1: is now Joe Ferrari Semannoni. This was the guy that 144 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 1: they attempted to kill on that night. Of course it's 145 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: called Ferrari because he drives one. 146 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, and as a sort of days. In this story, 147 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 2: it starts with him, you know, once again, going to 148 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 2: a dealership in Primeston, going to pick up another ferrari. 149 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 2: He's quite a flamboyant figure. And I suppose this is 150 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 2: what we we thank social networks for. He is quite 151 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 2: well known on social media. You post a lot about 152 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 2: the love for the vehicles and the vehicle that he tries. 153 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,319 Speaker 1: Listen, one just I don't know these things. I don't 154 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: quite know how the taxi industry operates, but I would 155 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 1: imagine you don't get a ferrari from taxi fares. 156 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,839 Speaker 2: Well. I mean, look, no one should ever scuffet money 157 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 2: that you know, he's collected in the taxi business, especially 158 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 2: when you are the likes of you know, the ferraris. 159 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 2: Your taxis run into the thousands in some cases. And 160 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,679 Speaker 2: remember by virtually, evenim being the leader that he is, 161 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 2: he is able to bypass, you know, choose in the 162 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 2: taxi ranks where some guide might be might be forced 163 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 2: to share. They always go to the front of the line. 164 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:39,439 Speaker 2: And and of course, I mean again, this is something 165 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:42,680 Speaker 2: that you know that the government also complains about from 166 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 2: time to time, is that we don't know much about 167 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 2: the inner workings of the financial fire of the taxi business. Unfortunately, 168 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 2: I'm convinced that the tax that could be collected there, 169 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 2: you know, is much more than what we collect if 170 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 2: you consider, you know, the sort of markenies that are involved. 171 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 2: But then again, this would have been the clue for us, 172 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 2: because the sort of volve that we are talking about, 173 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:09,679 Speaker 2: you know, extends far. I think even the taxi industry 174 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:12,679 Speaker 2: and itself you know, can generate. But then if you 175 00:10:12,760 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 2: talk about, you know, this the existence of a katau 176 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:20,679 Speaker 2: that suddenly involves consignments of drugs smuggling, and it also 177 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 2: then looks at high value tenders. As I said, I mean, 178 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 2: what we are beginning to get an idea of is 179 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 2: a network that extends beyond how Taing province. It goes 180 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:33,679 Speaker 2: to every other province in the country. You know, if 181 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 2: you have the shadowy individuals that are now in a 182 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:42,079 Speaker 2: position to sort of control all of this is very, 183 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 2: very fascinating, and I think it points us to the 184 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 2: fact that, you know, the source of the income is 185 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 2: far beyond than what we have a picture. 186 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, that's coughing at the taxi industry at all. 187 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 1: But I think what's clear from your investigation and some 188 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 1: of that those affidavits is that what we used to 189 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:08,439 Speaker 1: assume were different sides, you know, working against or even 190 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: with each other, are really often the same thing. Sunday 191 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 1: Times investigative reporter Sabe Losqiti, appreciate your time. Great piece 192 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: in the Sunday Times. You can still get it online 193 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: from the online version of the newspaper. You can read 194 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 1: it yourself. But just having heard all of that, can 195 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: anyone convince you we are not a mafia state