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Speaker 1: Turning questions insightful answers Listener's Choice, So time now for

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Speaker 1: our Listener's Choice feature, and Listener's Choice is an opportunity

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Speaker 1: for you to calcurate the content of the show with us.

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Speaker 1: What we do on Listener's Choice is give you an

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Speaker 1: opportunity to tell us what we should talk about on

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Speaker 1: the show. Of course, we organize the show in plentful

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Speaker 1: conversations we think you will appreciate and think are important.

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Speaker 1: But sometimes we miss other things. And if you think

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Speaker 1: we haven't looked at a particular angle, or there's a

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Speaker 1: story you think we've missed, just send me an email

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Speaker 1: on CM at seven tell us what you want us

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Speaker 1: to discuss on the show, and we'll bring in the

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Speaker 1: eleven experts to respond to your questions and tackle that topic.

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Speaker 1: Today we are talking about how much prisoners cost the state.

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Speaker 1: One of our listeners has asked that we discuss this.

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Speaker 1: How much do we as taxpayers pay towards the upkeep

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Speaker 1: of prison us And as I was saying to you earlier,

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Speaker 1: of course, every day in this country, thousands of people

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Speaker 1: wake up behind bus are housed, they are fed, they

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Speaker 1: are guarded, they are provided healthcare by the state, but

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Speaker 1: we've got to wonder what actually are the costs to

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Speaker 1: you as a taxpayer. We've invited Singabacco Mumalo, who is

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Speaker 1: with the Correctional Services Department, to chat to us about

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Speaker 1: this and answer some of our questions. And if you've

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Speaker 1: got your own questions, please give us a call on

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Speaker 1: OH one one eight eight three oh seven oh two

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Speaker 1: or send what's up on oh seven two seven o

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Speaker 1: two and seven oh two. Singobacco, thanks for coming through, brother,

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Speaker 1: Good morning, Hey.

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Speaker 2: Very good morning, Clement, and thank you for having us.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so maybe let's start with the more broader numbers first,

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Speaker 1: right and look at like the budget that the department

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Speaker 1: has and just broadly speaking, how much does it cost

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Speaker 1: to keep someone in prison in this country?

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Speaker 2: Okay? I think perhaps what we need to highlight is

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Speaker 2: that we have two categories of offenders in South Africa.

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Speaker 2: You have one or romantic Chinese. Those are people who

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Speaker 2: have not been sentences yet who are attending to court

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Speaker 2: cases their house in correational facilities after their appearance in court.

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Speaker 2: And you also then have a second category which is

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Speaker 2: sentenced to offenders. Why am I graitifying this is because

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Speaker 2: the course is not the same someone who's remanded is

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Speaker 2: basically being kept in a correational facility because you are

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Speaker 2: presenting the center until proven otherwise, So you do not

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Speaker 2: even participate in programs, meaning all that you spend on

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Speaker 2: you is just general upkeep that you're able to wash,

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Speaker 2: you eat, and then other needs then they can be

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Speaker 2: taken care of. But with a sentenced to offender it goes

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Speaker 2: beyond just washing eating. You then attend to correational programs,

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Speaker 2: whish costs the state money. Therefore you then that cost

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Speaker 2: will differ. General will say an inmate will cost so

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Speaker 2: aplica about four hundred and sixty three rands, some maybe

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Speaker 2: for four hundred and eighty, but that that doesn't include

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Speaker 2: a cost associated with a k that must pre rendered.

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Speaker 2: If perhaps you get sick, or perhaps you will require

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Speaker 2: services of a social workouse psychologist, or you must be

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Speaker 2: treated outside the cordational facility, that cost will then go

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Speaker 2: much higher. Famous a sentence of fender who must now

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Speaker 2: attend to corredational programs, then that cost again will go

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Speaker 2: way about four hundred and eighty per day.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so four hundred and eighty per day, And how

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Speaker 1: do we break it down?

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Speaker 3: Though? Where does it go to.

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Speaker 2: Roughly when we when we crush the numbers, you will

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Speaker 2: we say, per months and inmates is costing us about

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Speaker 2: thirteen thousand, eight hundred or fourteen thousand, four hundred, yes.

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Speaker 3: Eighteen thousand, five hundred, my goodness.

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Speaker 1: And yet people are employed in this country will get

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Speaker 1: like at three hundred and sixty en if they are lucky, payman.

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Speaker 2: PAM and to hand. So our budget goes just above

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Speaker 2: twenty eight billion a year.

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Speaker 1: Who So here's a tricky thing s in arbacco that

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Speaker 1: some people don't realize. Of course, you know, prisons are

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Speaker 1: meant to be, you know, a bit punitive because you

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Speaker 1: do want to punish the prisoners for the crimes that

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Speaker 1: they've committed, but you want to be you want it

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Speaker 1: to be a process of rehabilitation. So maybe explain where

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Speaker 1: that money goes to, Like do they what kind of

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Speaker 1: does it go into the food that they eat? Do

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Speaker 1: they have medical doctors who come check them, you know,

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Speaker 1: once in a while, And why is it important for

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Speaker 1: our government to still treat the people in prisons as

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Speaker 1: human beings? Because human rights are human rights, whether you're

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Speaker 1: in prison or out of prison. Can you just explain

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Speaker 1: that to people who are just wondering why is it

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Speaker 1: acceptable that prisoners seems to be living a much better

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Speaker 1: life than an ordinary South Africans who lives below the

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Speaker 1: poverty line who follows the rules.

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Speaker 2: Okay, the point that your trust raise is very important

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Speaker 2: because our constitution is very clear. It says every human

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Speaker 2: being must be treated with dignity. You still have rights

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Speaker 2: even if you are detaining a correational facility. Yes, they

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Speaker 2: will be limitations, but you or you must be given

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Speaker 2: access to food, access to water, and access to life,

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Speaker 2: meaning that when you are sick, you must be taken

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Speaker 2: care of. So a person who is incarcerated will not

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Speaker 2: lose those basic rights hencece defined as basic rights. But

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Speaker 2: then what happens when you're in a correrational facility. There's

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Speaker 2: quite a number of limitations. Because you are in a

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Speaker 2: correational facility. You lose some of those rights that ordinarily

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Speaker 2: people out there will enjoy, like your freedom of movement,

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Speaker 2: freedom of participation in some other things. But then the

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Speaker 2: manded of correctional services is to say, we do not

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Speaker 2: just warehouse you until your sentence is complete. We're saying,

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Speaker 2: how do we correct the wrong in you and reapilitate you,

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Speaker 2: so that post incarceration you could be released being a

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Speaker 2: better human being, but also a lower bathing citizen. Hence,

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Speaker 2: then it's important that you say, okay, in as much

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Speaker 2: as you do have access to basic needs that a

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Speaker 2: human being will have, but then we need to go

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Speaker 2: beyond that in saying that, upon correcting the wrong in you,

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Speaker 2: how do we then arm you will at least something

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Speaker 2: that will give you, you know in o Cay to

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Speaker 2: go in once out there, so that you don't relapse

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Speaker 2: into the life of crime. Hence, it's important then that

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Speaker 2: the element of rehabilitation comes in. You then get those costs,

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Speaker 2: then the additional cost Why then our project will be

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Speaker 2: the way it is because we now render additional services

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Speaker 2: beyond just keeping you in a cordational facility.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So how do you balance the concern South Africans

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Speaker 1: have that sometimes prisoners are seen to be living luxuriously.

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Speaker 3: I mean I wonder I've not.

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Speaker 1: I mean I've come to broadcast, We've come to broadcast

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Speaker 1: live from some of your correctional services. We've spoken to

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Speaker 1: prisoners there. In fact, we should be coming back soon, Singarbacco.

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Speaker 1: We should organize for us to return again because the

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Speaker 1: listeners enjoyed the conversation we had, but when you look

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Speaker 1: at the food that they eat, it's not like it's

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Speaker 1: anything fancy. But at the end of the day, there

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Speaker 1: are South Africans who just don't have money even for

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Speaker 1: the soup that the prisoners enjoy in the morning. So

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Speaker 1: how do you balance one ensuring that these people, of

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Speaker 1: course get nutritionous food, their rights are still respected when

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Speaker 1: they're behind bars, but you also don't want them to

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Speaker 1: be enjoying things that most South Africans who are who

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Speaker 1: don't even enjoy or have the luxury to enjoy, because

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Speaker 1: the risk you're running is some people are going to

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Speaker 1: commit crime just so that they can be in prison,

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Speaker 1: because that's the way to be safe. I mean foreign nationals.

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Speaker 1: I've heard some of them will commit a crime because

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Speaker 1: that means we're going to be behind bars, which means

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Speaker 1: we are guaranteed food, we are guaranteed a.

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Speaker 3: Roof above our heads. So how do you balance the two.

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Speaker 2: Yes, being in a correctional facility calls beyond us having

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Speaker 2: a meal and a pet to sleep on. There's quite

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Speaker 2: a number of others behinds. In no engagement with offenders,

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Speaker 2: you will never occasional offender will say it is niceier

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Speaker 2: in prison. I want to stay here as much as

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Speaker 2: I can. No one will ever say that, because it's

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Speaker 2: not a present environment where a person will say, our

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Speaker 2: prefer to stay here rather than bring out and enjoying life.

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Speaker 2: But then, as a stag in as much as we

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Speaker 2: provide those basic needs, there are other needs that you know,

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Speaker 2: we say as a department, it cannot be that a

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Speaker 2: person will just sits in a condational facility and say

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Speaker 2: I'm waiting for the blade of food. You also have

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Speaker 2: to work for that. This is tapes players mighty where

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Speaker 2: we're able to then offset some of those costs by

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Speaker 2: making a contribution to the fiscals. Let us do, let

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Speaker 2: us do. So. Hence, you'll find us going accressively in

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Speaker 2: saying that offenders need to work. You will find us

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Speaker 2: having farms, having wood workshops, still workshops, and other line

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Speaker 2: of productions that we'll find in correational facilities, where we

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Speaker 2: are saying the furnisher that we approachuse when we sell

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Speaker 2: it to the money that we get out of that

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Speaker 2: must then be rooted back into the department, so that

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Speaker 2: at least you know the fiscus is not strange because

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Speaker 2: we've got such a bigger population. But you also say

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Speaker 2: that there is food there to con produce ourselves rather

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Speaker 2: than having to go and buy it. Let us do that. Yes,

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Speaker 2: some of it. In the beginning, it does cost money.

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Speaker 2: I'll just give you an example of a bakery. If

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Speaker 2: we are studying a bakery, you need a lot of

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Speaker 2: money in terms of buying the machinery, you know, the infrastructure.

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Speaker 2: But once that bakery is in full operation after about

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Speaker 2: six two seven years, you are then the position to

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Speaker 2: have recovered fully all those costs. When you're putting up

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Speaker 2: the infrastructure, you are now able to then benefit in

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Speaker 2: terms of getting that bad at a far lesser course

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Speaker 2: when you have to go and buy it out the

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Speaker 2: way you buy preight for like twenty one rands, whereas

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Speaker 2: when you produce this internally we do, or we produce

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Speaker 2: that prey for like nine rent about er than rents.

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Speaker 2: So that's where you start to railer.

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Speaker 1: Say, when they study behind bars, who's paying for their studies?

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Speaker 3: Are we as taxpayers also paying for their studies?

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Speaker 2: In South Africa, your primary education up to high school

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Speaker 2: at grade twelve and below that is freely available. But

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Speaker 2: once they go to a tishary level. They don't have

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Speaker 2: to pay for that. You'll find a number of families

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Speaker 2: paying for inmates to take the studs fatter. Some do

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Speaker 2: even test passaries. But what we make it from this

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Speaker 2: state known from different dissolutions in most cats, from different institutions.

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Speaker 2: But we make it the point that's grade twelve downwards,

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Speaker 2: that is freely available to all inmates.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, singer Bacco, I hear you.

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Speaker 1: I'm so uncomfortable with the thirteen thousand, five hundred we

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Speaker 1: spent per prisoner per month.

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Speaker 3: I just think that is a lot of money. And

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Speaker 3: I get it, you know, I understand what you've said.

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Speaker 1: I'm just juxtaposing that with so many South Africans out

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Speaker 1: there who live below the poverty line and they don't

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Speaker 1: even get a fraction of that. I want to give

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Speaker 1: the listeners.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, the reason why, yes, the reason why we

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Speaker 2: are fighting not just saying in oppreshing to the converted.

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Speaker 2: We are going all over saying that we need to

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Speaker 2: do something about the crime levels in this country if

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Speaker 2: we can get it, you know, to decrease from where

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Speaker 2: it is the better for all of us. Because you

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Speaker 2: look at our inmate population, it has increased to almost

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Speaker 2: seventy thousand. We've never had that number in many years.

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Speaker 2: And then you don't have to ask yourself why is

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Speaker 2: our crime level so high? Is anything that we can do?

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Speaker 2: And to say how first can you then rechusee over crowding?

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Speaker 2: Do you really have to take anyone who is just

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Speaker 2: committed give in petroal offenses to your condessional facility? Or

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Speaker 2: we look at alternative means for those people to be rehabilitated.

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Speaker 3: Why do we have to keep.

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Speaker 2: Track eds people who must be taken to a track

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Speaker 2: reabilitation center, you know, to be treated there and be released.

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Speaker 2: But to find the number of those people in our facilities.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's hear from our listeners. Mitxwell you're in Pretoria.

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Speaker 1: What do you want to say? Good morning?

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Speaker 4: Good morning manyetela. I just want to through the issue

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Speaker 4: of thirteen thousand prison and a mantel because you get

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Speaker 4: one slice of bread does not even blue ribbond bread.

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Speaker 4: They make it some way. It doesn't have even an energy.

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Speaker 4: On twelve f o' clock or one o'clock they give

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Speaker 4: you an old black beams. How can that price be

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Speaker 4: that much? So for me, I think the pricing from

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Speaker 4: the department is absolutely not so good. The food is

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Speaker 4: extremely horrible, and that.

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Speaker 1: You've been to prison yourself next, well one hundred percent

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Speaker 1: manus like, remember that thirteen thousand doesn't just go to food.

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Speaker 1: There are other programs. They have to pay psychologists, the

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Speaker 1: other things that that money goes to us.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but they must not say one is a lie insect.

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Speaker 4: The problem is needed because the Department, the money that

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Speaker 4: is putting on public the prison doesn't even get even

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Speaker 4: a single or that situation. Cell phones are being sold

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Speaker 4: by the same worders, but the punishment go to the prison.

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Speaker 3: Oh got you Nexell in Peatoria. Thank you? Is that

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Speaker 3: Youano engel Brudt calling us from Cape Town.

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Speaker 5: Good morning, Good morning, Clement sent good morning to the listeners.

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Speaker 4: Yes.

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Speaker 2: Look, the problem is that we.

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Speaker 5: Said with overpopulated presence and correctional services, I think might

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Speaker 5: get a bad rap unnecessarily because they are the last chain,

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Speaker 5: the last in the entire criminal justice chain. Now they

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Speaker 5: have to provide housing and suit and stuff, and these

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Speaker 5: things cost money. But our problem actually sets with the

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Speaker 5: Department of Justice in that there's fifty two thousand criminal

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Speaker 5: case backlock and all of these guys become romant the chainees,

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Speaker 5: and you can't budget for that. That's why we set

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Speaker 5: with a tremendous cost.

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Speaker 2: Now that the the.

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Speaker 5: Department is trying it's beast in terms of self sufficiency

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Speaker 5: to you know, do farms, bakeries.

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Speaker 4: And all of these things.

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Speaker 5: But you can't really budget for remand attainee because you

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Speaker 5: just don't know how many you're going to get.

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Speaker 4: And and and we also have to look at our.

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Speaker 5: The criminal the entire criminal justice system, because sentencing the

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Speaker 5: regime for for one, you know, because if if the

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Speaker 5: money is being eaten up by remand attainees, there's not

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Speaker 5: much left to do rehabilitation, which is in actual track.

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Speaker 1: That's what we should be ca Yeah, yeah, that's what

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Speaker 1: we should prioritize. Yeah, you know, got you, Thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for your contribution. Let's go to some what's.

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Speaker 6: Ups helament that is topic about us supporting people who

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Speaker 6: have done us wrong. Hey, and sorry study paying no

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Speaker 6: mobile you know, I don't know, like it's like going

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Speaker 6: to prison these days is luxury, you know. And you

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Speaker 6: don't pay for rent, you don't pay for electricity, You

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Speaker 6: watch TV for free, you use sanitation for free, drink

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Speaker 6: water for free, electricity is provided for free, and.

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Speaker 7: Yet you get higher education for free. And those who

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Speaker 7: are waking hard, you know, the ones who deserve to

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Speaker 7: get free higher education, the government says they can't afford

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Speaker 7: to give them free higher education. You know, his students

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Speaker 7: protest every year. They don't have accommodation, they don't have food,

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Speaker 7: they don't have money to pay for admin fees. You know,

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Speaker 7: they can't get placements. But yet prisoners have it luxurious.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I've got a message in tobacco and always chuckle

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Speaker 1: a bit. I do love it when we do get

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Speaker 1: messages from inside prison. And there's a prisoner listening to

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Speaker 1: us right now in one of the Houting centers, Anonymous,

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Speaker 1: who says, good morning, Clement. Please ask your guests there,

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Speaker 1: why is there no budget to feed inmates At the moment,

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Speaker 1: we as sentenced prisoners, are not getting full meals anymore

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Speaker 1: since December last year. We're eating pap and cabbage or

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Speaker 1: bread and beans every day and there's no vegetables for

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Speaker 1: our meals. While we are working as inmates on the

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Speaker 1: farms here in Houting. The idea that we're living a

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Speaker 1: soft life is a myth. We're living in overcrowded cells

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Speaker 1: and we don't get any medical care. Is it true,

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Speaker 1: singer Bacco, that they haven't been getting full meals every day?

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Speaker 4: Sament.

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Speaker 2: The good thing is that you've been to our cordertional

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Speaker 2: facilities and we must do another visit and that you

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Speaker 2: show is here in the morning, because that's when you

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Speaker 2: can also get to see what type of meals are

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Speaker 2: provided to offenders. One is balanced DIETMS.

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Speaker 5: Two.

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Speaker 2: It is prescribed in law that offenders must get three

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Speaker 2: meals a day. You can then look at the interval,

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Speaker 2: but then the that's what it des us so that

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Speaker 2: that you will talk to breakfast, lunch and dinner. So

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Speaker 2: there is no way that you can alter that because

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Speaker 2: offenders will take you to court and saying that you

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Speaker 2: are no longer following the legal prescripts providers with three

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Speaker 2: meals a day and and and it's even prescribed what

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Speaker 2: goes into a meal, meaning that you know, you will have,

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Speaker 2: you know your status, your fruit, every ingredient that is

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Speaker 2: required has to be there hands from time to time.

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Speaker 2: There is always this is because with lower priding cities

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Speaker 2: and saying that at terms you don't even get to

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Speaker 2: enjoy the type of meal that you'll find in the

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Speaker 2: correctional facility. Wire then offenders given all these because to

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Speaker 2: them it looks like it's like it's like slagser whereas

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Speaker 2: it's not. But as a department, you always tract that transcends.

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Speaker 2: We say offenders have to work so that you know

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Speaker 2: they can assist the state. But also what about the

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Speaker 2: low abiding citizens center the department. We cannot just sit

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Speaker 2: back and say the law requires us to do the following,

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Speaker 2: therefore were doing that. But we must be sensitive towards

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Speaker 2: the needs offer people. Hence the settlers, they took clemen

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Speaker 2: to even provide it to all these homes, to schools

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Speaker 2: and to other people who are I need helps to

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Speaker 2: even find us building houses for those who require shelter.

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Speaker 2: Unfortunately we cannot use state mind for that, but we

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Speaker 2: do have done as will say years money or years

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Speaker 2: mature and we then offer often the lap and saying

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Speaker 2: that contributes back to the community to offend that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, Singobacco, thank you for coming through, Thank

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Speaker 1: you for coming to engage with us about this. I

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Speaker 1: really appreciate your time, Singabaco. Marman is the spokesperson at

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Speaker 1: the Correctional Services Department. Will come back to one of

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Speaker 1: the prisons.

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Speaker 3: When did we do it? Two years ago?

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Speaker 1: Two years ago, we did an ob at one of

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Speaker 1: the correctional services sent and we'll come back to the

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Speaker 1: prisons to continue this conversation because Wow, thirteen thousand and

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Speaker 1: five hundred per prisoner per month,