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Speaker 1: And now The Money Show with Stephen credits on seven

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Speaker 1: oh two.

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Speaker 2: Let's walk at all.

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Speaker 3: The Money Show with Stephen Curtis is brought to you

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Speaker 3: by Abscess Sponsorships, proud sponsor of the Absur Cape Epic,

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Speaker 3: celebrating twenty years of taking it to the trails. It

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Speaker 3: is a registered FSP. Good evening, Welcome to the Money Show.

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Speaker 3: I'm Stephen Curtis. Eight minutes after sixth the time. And

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Speaker 3: while there's sort of school holidays, while there's not a

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Speaker 3: huge amount of corporate activity, there's really one subject which

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Speaker 3: I think is dominating everyone's conversation relating to money. It's oil,

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Speaker 3: all about Iran, It's all about the conflict in the

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Speaker 3: Middle East. It's all about the US and Israel's the

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Speaker 3: Strait of him was and oil prices. At the moment,

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Speaker 3: we still don't know at this point what is going

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Speaker 3: to happen at midnight tomorrow. I made the points on Friday,

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Speaker 3: just before the weekend that if I were asked for advice,

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Speaker 3: I would suggest that government that the various ministries involved

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Speaker 3: already the Ministry of the Department of Mineral Resort, Mineral

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Speaker 3: Petroleum Resources actually does have a proper press conference does

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Speaker 3: not just issue a statement. And I say that because

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Speaker 3: there are so many questions that people would like to ask.

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Speaker 3: Get it all done. Let all the news channels, let

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Speaker 3: all the radio stations take it live, and instead you

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Speaker 3: won't be harassed quite as much for interviews. I don't

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Speaker 3: know at the stage what is going to happen, but

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Speaker 3: that would still be my advice, if only to also

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Speaker 3: show that you are taking this seriously. To just do

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Speaker 3: it as a sort of late statement, I think might

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Speaker 3: give the opposite impression. Now, there might be things I

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Speaker 3: haven't thought of. Maybe there's a thought that actually we

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Speaker 3: need to do it later rather than earlier, because if

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Speaker 3: we do it earlier, people rush to the petrol stations.

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Speaker 3: I think they're doing that anyway. I went to go

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Speaker 3: and fill up this morning, and you know, quartit to

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Speaker 3: ten at a petrol station in a suburb, you wouldn't

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Speaker 3: think that would be a busy time. Every birth was full.

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Speaker 3: As I wound down the window and I said to

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Speaker 3: the guy who'd wound down the window next to me,

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Speaker 3: I said, oh, look a full petrol station. He just

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Speaker 3: burst out laughing. We all know the situation. But I

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Speaker 3: were the department, I would take questions. I'd be a

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Speaker 3: bit sophisticated in my messaging rather than just putting out

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Speaker 3: a blanket statement. As I say, there may be things

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Speaker 3: to it that I don't know, but I don't think

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Speaker 3: you lose anything by actually just coming and doing the

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Speaker 3: questions during the press conference and then sort of doing

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Speaker 3: it properly. Would be my advice. Well, let's wait to

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Speaker 3: see what happens. We'll speak to Abu Funny to Pilaro,

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Speaker 3: he's the CEO of the Fuel Industry Association about it

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Speaker 3: in a moment. In fact, he's in the studio already.

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Speaker 3: Johann Else is the chief economist at the PSG Group.

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Speaker 3: There's so much to ask. I mean, the Egyptian president

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Speaker 3: said today, and he's sort of trying to convince Trump,

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Speaker 3: the US President, to back off, basically saying, look, if

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Speaker 3: you keep going oil with h two hundred dollars a barrel.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I don't want to ask you Hanne Else

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Speaker 3: a question about that, but I feel that I must.

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Speaker 3: I mean, can you imagine we'll all be cycling to work.

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Speaker 3: There's all sorts of interesting suggestions coming out of Lasutu.

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Speaker 3: There there Natural Resources Ministered in an interview with Bloomberg

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Speaker 3: and would She suggested that La Suta will ask for

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Speaker 3: a little bit more money from us for the water

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Speaker 3: we get through the Lasuta Highlands Water Project. If you

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Speaker 3: are Lusutu, if you knew hawting depended on you, well

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Speaker 3: I'll do exactly the same thing. We do have some

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Speaker 3: leverage though, because the money matters to them, so I

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Speaker 3: think that'll be important. And then also the Master Builders

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Speaker 3: South Africa, they're a bit worried about all of this

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Speaker 3: volatility to do with fuel prices, and we thought it

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Speaker 3: was an important interview because it gets you to the

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Speaker 3: long term consequences of the situation that we're seeing.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 3: This is where things start to get very very interesting.

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Speaker 3: Good to year from you tonight, O double one, double

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Speaker 3: A three oh seven oh two two one four four,

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Speaker 3: six oh five sixty seven and voice notes of course

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Speaker 3: on seven two seven oh two one seven oh two.

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Speaker 3: How are you feeling ahead of midnight Tuesday night when

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Speaker 3: fuel prices go up? Eleven minutes now after six o'clock.

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Speaker 1: The Money Show with Stephen krudis live on ninety two

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Speaker 1: point seven and one six FM, streaming on the Prime

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Speaker 1: Media Plus.

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Speaker 2: Map and TSTV Channel eight.

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Speaker 3: Well still nothing that I can see on the Department

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Speaker 3: of Mineral Petroleum Resources WhatsApp group, the media WhatsApp group,

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Speaker 3: which I'm expecting will get a sense of what fuel

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Speaker 3: prices are going to do. But I think you know

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Speaker 3: by now we're expecting the biggest monthly increase in fuel

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Speaker 3: prices in recent history. Please to tell you that about

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Speaker 3: Funny ture Falaro, the CEO of the Fuel Industry Association

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Speaker 3: of South Africa's in the studio sitting oppositely now about Funny.

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Speaker 3: Good evening. I really do appreciate you coming in. Thank

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Speaker 3: you so much. I know you'll have a very well

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Speaker 3: informed guest. I don't know if you'll share it with me.

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Speaker 3: What are you expecting to happen tomorrow night.

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Speaker 5: Well, I'm expecting the normal fuel price adjustment in the

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Speaker 5: form of basic fuel price. I'm in adjustment on the

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Speaker 5: basis of the under recovery that everyone has been talking about.

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Speaker 5: I'm also expecting to see the adjustment to the magister

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Speaker 5: district zones, which are predominantly informed by the tariff increase

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Speaker 5: on the transmit pipelines. And obviously there's texts the levies

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Speaker 5: that has been announced by the Minister of finance. I

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Speaker 5: mean in February, that's what I'm expecting. I'm basically expecting

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Speaker 5: a normal fuel price adjustment, which will typically happen every April.

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Speaker 3: But I mean in terms of actual numbers. I mean,

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Speaker 3: there are various variables, and we don't know all of those.

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Speaker 3: We know most of them. I suppose five rand a

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Speaker 3: leader for petrol. Does that sound about right to you?

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Speaker 3: Maybe on the upper limit.

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Speaker 5: I mean I just saw the numbers I mean off

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Speaker 5: adjustment in LESU too earlier today. I think the petrol

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Speaker 5: has been adjusted by more than six rand, diesel by

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Speaker 5: like thirteen red. So I'm expecting at least for South

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Speaker 5: Africa something like six rand. If we add everything else

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Speaker 5: BFP levies and the magister district zones adjustment, and on

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Speaker 5: the diesel, I'm expecting anything around them in tendrand. Patrol, sorry,

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Speaker 5: paraffin probably eleven rand lpg for a friend pig logram.

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Speaker 3: I mean ten round for diesel. That's huge. I mean,

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Speaker 3: that's a massive that's a massive increase.

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Speaker 5: We have never seen anything like that. It's quite scary

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Speaker 5: if you have to think about it. I mean, I

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Speaker 5: always think about people who like me and buy products

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Speaker 5: in bulk. So if you are a mine in do

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Speaker 5: you consume let's say, three hundred thousand liters per a month,

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Speaker 5: Suddenly must my apply that by ten? I mean that's

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Speaker 5: quite a significant I mean a chunk of money.

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Speaker 3: I would imagine there's going to be huge pressure on

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Speaker 3: filling stations right now. I'm sure people are queuing that

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Speaker 3: were already this morning. Have you been able to make

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Speaker 3: sure there's enough supply in the country.

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Speaker 5: The supply for products in the country is stable. We've

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Speaker 5: got sufficient stock levels. I know people have been reporting

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Speaker 5: about dry size, particularly on diesel. Actually I took a

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Speaker 5: chance this morning because I was listening to Clement while

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Speaker 5: I was driving. I happened to be in the FOURT

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Speaker 5: area near montic Casina. I decided to get into one

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Speaker 5: of the serving stations to see I drive a diesel car,

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Speaker 5: and then I went in. They never asked me, like

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Speaker 5: if I want the men to full time or not.

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Speaker 5: They just like say, okay, come go this. So yes,

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Speaker 5: there are reports of sides that are running dry because

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Speaker 5: of panic buying, and I expect that number to increase

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Speaker 5: something quite significantly to double. Currently the number is still

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Speaker 5: less than two hundred sites that dry on diesel, but

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Speaker 5: that number keeps on changing. So that is the number

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Speaker 5: probably that was reported this morning. So tomorrow, by this time,

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Speaker 5: I'm sure it's going to be crious out there, so

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Speaker 5: everybody will want to beat me this massive price adjustment.

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Speaker 5: But I anticipate that we're going to have to recover

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Speaker 5: come the first and second of April to catch up

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Speaker 5: on those sides that will potentially have me drive I

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Speaker 5: mean pop products.

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Speaker 3: Government has said in the past they're not worried about

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Speaker 3: fuel shortages. They talk about us getting supply from Nigeria.

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Speaker 3: We also, of course have sasol, which is about about

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Speaker 3: a third called thirty percent of our fuel needs. No

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Speaker 3: one knows how long this conflict is going to go

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Speaker 3: on for or more bluntly, how long the straight up

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Speaker 3: mus will be closed over the longer term. Are you

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Speaker 3: worried about a problem a supply issue?

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Speaker 5: So, Stephen, if you think about it, when this was that,

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Speaker 5: we thought it's going to be at least maximum two weeks, yeah,

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Speaker 5: and it's now a month, and I mean the price

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Speaker 5: of oil is not coming down, is still above hundred

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Speaker 5: men and depending on what happens next, So if the

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Speaker 5: conflict I mean escalate we don't know what does that

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Speaker 5: mean for us, but at least based on what has

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Speaker 5: happened in the past four weeks, if we look at that,

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Speaker 5: because the disruption have been minimal in terms of the

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Speaker 5: imports that are coming our way. So if it continues

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Speaker 5: on that level, we are fine. I mean we should

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Speaker 5: be okay because we are receiving imports of both them

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Speaker 5: in crude oil and products and just spaar in mind

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Speaker 5: that I mean the supply sources for crude oil has

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Speaker 5: changed significantly in the past ten years. We are more

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Speaker 5: heavily dependent in the continent now Nigeria and gold and Kanna.

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Speaker 5: They are very key in terms of supply of crude work.

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Speaker 5: But products, that's where there's volatility there because you're not

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Speaker 5: going to be the only country that's looking for alternative

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Speaker 5: and supply sources. So but we are still at this

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Speaker 5: point in time, I mean being able to import products.

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Speaker 5: I mean, if we just look at what's happening in

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Speaker 5: other Lackman countries, I mean they are like significant measures

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Speaker 5: where people are reationing products.

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Speaker 3: We are not there as a country. When the fuel

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Speaker 3: price jumps by this much, is there going to be

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Speaker 3: a longer term impact on your industry, because anyone who

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Speaker 3: had even been thinking of making alternative plans. I mean,

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Speaker 3: at least one of our major supermarkets supplies most of

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Speaker 3: its stores through an electrically driven fleet. Right, they're getting

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Speaker 3: electricity I presumed from solar installations, and I imagine some

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Speaker 3: from ESCAM. Surely anyone else making you know, considering how

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Speaker 3: considering the future after this is going to do the

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Speaker 3: same thing. Is this going to be one of those

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Speaker 3: moments maybe we look back with a fuel industry change.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, so.

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Speaker 5: Look, this is going to, like me, give us opportunity

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Speaker 5: to put things into perspective. One thing that you need

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Speaker 5: to remember, if especially you are considering buying a car,

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Speaker 5: in your vehicle, you'll start to make a cerrus comparison

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Speaker 5: between their alternative. I mean, I mean like a sort

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Speaker 5: of technology. You look at the hybrid, you look at

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Speaker 5: their pure like I'm in ev and they compared to

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Speaker 5: the ice engine to see, like I mean, like in

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Speaker 5: the long term, what are they savings? But the other

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Speaker 5: thing that is like evident is that I mean the

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Speaker 5: fossil fuels of petrol and diesel still they've got a

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Speaker 5: very significant role to play in the global economy. I mean,

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Speaker 5: if you look at what is happening in Europe in particular,

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Speaker 5: where they've really made progress in terms of like a

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Speaker 5: new vehicle technology, but still they are jumping up and

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Speaker 5: down because of this crisis. So yes, it's going to

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Speaker 5: give us something like some options in terms of seriously

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Speaker 5: considering I mean like alternatives in terms of what we're

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Speaker 5: seeing now.

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Speaker 3: There is supposed to be a new task team. The

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Speaker 3: President sort of refer to the something you were speaking

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Speaker 3: at a NANC conference yesterday. Members of the Department of Finance, Energy,

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Speaker 3: et cetera. Have they been a touch with you at all?

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Speaker 5: Well, I suppose those are government specific issues that have

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Speaker 5: nothing to do with us as private I mean players.

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Speaker 5: So we just read about it like I mean, just

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Speaker 5: like members of public, we also like wait to hear

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Speaker 5: what's their outcome. So we've got no interest nor desire

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Speaker 5: to be part of those discussions because I will presume

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Speaker 5: are very difficult conversations.

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Speaker 3: I've a fanning Chafalaro. Really do appreciate you coming in.

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Speaker 3: Thank you very much. Indeed, the CEO of the Fuel

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Speaker 3: Industry Association of South Africa twenty minutes after six the time,

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Speaker 3: Jo hand Else is the chief economist at the PSG group. Youohan,

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Speaker 3: good evening, and thank you for your time. So we

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Speaker 3: have a task team. Are there really any options for

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Speaker 3: government to try and lessen the pain? I can't have.

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Speaker 3: I can't think of anything obvious by.

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Speaker 6: Stephen good Evening.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, I think back to the president that

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Speaker 7: was created in twenty twenty two when government also cut

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Speaker 7: the fuel levy for a few months, cut the fuel

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Speaker 7: levy by one round fifty per liter for three months

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Speaker 7: in a row.

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Speaker 3: So we could do that, but presumably that money has

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Speaker 3: to come from somewhere. The pandemic scrambled many things in

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Speaker 3: government finances. I mean, and even if we did cut

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Speaker 3: the fuel levy a little bit, would it make much

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Speaker 3: difference considering the scale of this increase diesel probably ten

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Speaker 3: round a liter.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, So I think that specifically, because they budgeted very

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Speaker 7: conservatively in this past budget for revenue from mining taxes,

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Speaker 7: I think there is some room in the budget without

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Speaker 7: breaking the previously assumed budget balance numbers and the debt

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Speaker 7: ratio numbers. I did some calculations this often beneath they

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Speaker 7: cut a few levee by two runds a liter for

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Speaker 7: two months. That's around eight and a half billion round

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Speaker 7: worth of cost that they will forego. Now, in twenty

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Speaker 7: twenty two, the cost was around ten and a half billion.

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Speaker 7: They've got that money through selling some of the strategic

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Speaker 7: fuel reserves. This time around, we haven't got a lot there,

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Speaker 7: I assume, But as I say, the budget was very conservative,

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Speaker 7: so there's some room in the budget. And while it's

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Speaker 7: still a big hefty increase, if we then sit with

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Speaker 7: forurand Ale to increase, I think then, according to my numbers,

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Speaker 7: inflation in April jump to three point seven percent and

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Speaker 7: not four point two, which would have been the case

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Speaker 7: with a six rand increase. And I think that's almost

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Speaker 7: the difference between an imminent rate hike or not. So

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Speaker 7: I think we'll give the consumers a little bit of

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Speaker 7: the way, not much, but some, but it will make

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Speaker 7: a material difference in terms of the inflation numbers, and

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Speaker 7: perhaps we won't need an interest rate hike in the cycle.

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Speaker 3: And all of the consequences of that all At the

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Speaker 3: same time, one of the things government's been very clear

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Speaker 3: to do, and the Finances has been very care on,

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Speaker 3: is trying to reduce our debt. Now in a situation

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Speaker 3: like this, does that really matter. I mean, death always matters, obviously,

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Speaker 3: but in terms of how people view our debt, you know,

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Speaker 3: everyone was so excited we were beginning to reduce it.

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Speaker 3: In a situation like this, I would imagine most international

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Speaker 3: people watching US would completely understand a government trying to

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Speaker 3: stay more for an interest rate. I can doing it

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Speaker 3: in a very responsible way if it were done correctly.

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Speaker 7: Absolutely I agree with you. I think find investors' ratings, agencies,

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Speaker 7: et cetera. I would see this in the light of

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Speaker 7: the crisis that has been created by this Middle East Wall,

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Speaker 7: other countries going through similar situations trying to lessen the

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Speaker 7: impact on consumers.

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Speaker 8: I think, yeah, we don't.

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Speaker 7: Know, as you said earlier in the previous interview, we

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Speaker 7: don't know how long.

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Speaker 8: This will last.

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Speaker 7: But I think there's lots of pressure on the US

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Speaker 7: government internally and externally into ENDUS as quickly as possible.

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Speaker 8: Still, if they managed to.

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Speaker 7: Lessen the impact on South African consumers for a couple

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Speaker 7: of months before reverting that fuel levy to the normal level,

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Speaker 7: and we then get a somewhat lower inflation outcome, and

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Speaker 7: then we're only in terms of interest rates, we see

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Speaker 7: a delay in further cuts and not the need for

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Speaker 7: a high I think tacking all of that together, I

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Speaker 7: think final investors, ratings, agencies, everybody.

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Speaker 8: Would see that that's the better outcome.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, very much, sir. I've got two extreme scenarios for you,

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Speaker 3: one better than the other. I mean, as you as

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Speaker 3: everyone is probably going to say, until this thing ends,

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Speaker 3: no one knows what's going to happen. But the president

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Speaker 3: of Egypt today said, if it doesn't end soon, we

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Speaker 3: could end up with oil at two hundred dollars a barrel.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's the probably things you don't want to

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Speaker 3: think about. But what happens to our economy if it

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Speaker 3: goes that far? I mean, do we have an economy

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Speaker 3: if it goes that far?

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Speaker 7: Yeah, well, it's it's same as previous scenarios when we

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Speaker 7: saw significant spike in the oil price, whether that's at two,

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Speaker 7: one and fifty, I don't think really matters. I think

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Speaker 7: what happens immediately you see a global slump, you see

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Speaker 7: recession globally because oil is a big cost input not

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Speaker 7: only for business but for consumers as well, So everybody

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Speaker 7: cuts back on spending.

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Speaker 8: That causes a recession.

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Speaker 7: But that demand slump then immediately causes the oil price

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Speaker 7: to collapse. So in the past, and when you look

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Speaker 7: at the oil price cycles, whenever you've seen a spike

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Speaker 7: like this, pretty soon oil just collapses. But of course

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Speaker 7: that creates lots of volatility, it creates recessions. But then

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Speaker 7: central banks starts cutting rates pretty soon because of that

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Speaker 7: weak demand, the negative impact, and if we take that

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Speaker 7: step further, the big increase in petrol prices we discussed.

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Speaker 7: Whether it's four or six doesn't matter, but that's almost

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Speaker 7: a deflationary scenario. We pay more for petrol, but we've

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Speaker 7: got less to pay for other things or buy other things,

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Speaker 7: so there's downward pressure on other prices. Yes, there's there's

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Speaker 7: a risk that reserve bank sets with that, it creates

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Speaker 7: higher inflation expectations. But in terms of your question, volatility

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Speaker 7: like that creates lots of uncertainty, It creates a recession.

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Speaker 7: Central banks step in, so economies markets lots of volatility,

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Speaker 7: but then we revert quickly back to where we were.

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Speaker 3: Before, and the other side of the war stops tomorrow,

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Speaker 3: and who knows. I presume oil prices don't go back

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Speaker 3: to normal. It would take some time to restore faith

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Speaker 3: in the markets. But I imagine quite difficult to know

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Speaker 3: a month, few months, who knows.

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Speaker 9: Now.

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Speaker 7: Part of that scenario should, of course, as you said earlier,

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Speaker 7: be complete opening of the strait of our moves.

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Speaker 8: But let's assume that happens. So I think the oplace

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Speaker 8: will fall pretty quickly.

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Speaker 7: Part of this significant increase has been because trade is

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Speaker 7: buying up lots of oil and then if suddenly there's

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Speaker 7: no need and they start selling, and then suddenly there's

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Speaker 7: a lot of excess supply, whereas demand has been weakened somewhat.

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Speaker 7: I think the old price could actually fall back right

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Speaker 7: back to sixty.

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Speaker 3: Sure. Imagine there'll be a show and then.

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Speaker 7: Petrol prices and then petrol prices coming off as well.

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Speaker 7: If we again, if we can look to twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 7: in January, petrol prices was nineteen ran something eliter It

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Speaker 7: went up to twenty six by July, and then by

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Speaker 7: the end of the year was back at twenty and

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Speaker 7: that war is still ongoing.

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Speaker 3: Indeed, Johan Alice, thank you that we ended with more

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Speaker 3: cheerful scenario. The chief economist at the PSD Group. It's

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Speaker 3: twenty seven minutes now after six o'clock, the money show,

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Speaker 3: the market Arthur Carris's portfolio manager at Macro Solutions at

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Speaker 3: the old mutual Investment Group, Arthur good Evening one or

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Speaker 3: two things to pick through. I mean FNB a few

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Speaker 3: big changes there, but of a restructuring. Harry Kellen steps down.

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Speaker 3: He's sort of taking earlier retirement only CEO for two years.

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Speaker 3: How do you view all of that?

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Speaker 4: Well, First National Bank or First Round as a whole

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Speaker 4: has got a very strong bench of really good managers

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Speaker 4: in their underlying businesses. So often the people that they

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Speaker 4: point to the chief executives of their major divisions are

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Speaker 4: people that are in the running to be CEO of

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Speaker 4: the group at some time. So I would pay attention

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Speaker 4: to these management changes. It's telling you who the next

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Speaker 4: generation is that the top leadership is going to come from.

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Speaker 4: Harry isn't an interesting situation. He was chief financial officer

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Speaker 4: of the group for about ten years before he kind

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Speaker 4: of took a sideways, more than operational role.

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Speaker 3: I guess you could call.

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Speaker 4: It in running that business, and perhaps I don't did

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Speaker 4: exact reasoning behind it, but perhaps it was a bit

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Speaker 4: of a filling a gap while they waited for the

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Speaker 4: right person to run the bank.

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Speaker 3: The other big move Natie Kersh obviously, as South African

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Speaker 3: made the point earlier. His brother is he founded the

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Speaker 3: company that founded this radio station, his Jetro food service business.

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Speaker 3: He's selling it to Cisco. This is really primarily an

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Speaker 3: American deal.

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Speaker 4: Quite a lot of money involved, yes, the housteal turning

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Speaker 4: round billion dollars and and nerdy Kersch I believe ow

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Speaker 4: is about seventy five percent of that business. So's he's

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Speaker 4: ninety so looking I guess to settle up his business affairs.

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Speaker 4: It's been a very successful business. It's been there for

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Speaker 4: a very very long time. It would potentially have made

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Speaker 4: a really good or an interesting acquisition for the sy

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Speaker 4: African Bidcore business, which is in the same industry. But

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Speaker 4: the whole bit Corps was about eight billion dollars, so

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Speaker 4: that would have been a pretty pretty hard deal for

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Speaker 4: them to get done.

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Speaker 3: On the markets today, oil obviously stronger. Aluminium price is

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Speaker 3: up because of that Iranian attack in the Middle East,

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Speaker 3: and that puts sound thirty two up quite strongly.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 4: Aluminium. The key thing with aluminum is, in fact, any

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Speaker 4: so box site is plentiful, it's not very expensive, but

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Speaker 4: what you need is energy to convert it. If you remember,

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Speaker 4: we've got these these aluminum smelters in Richard's Bay that

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Speaker 4: are all about when that put together, when ESCOM had

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Speaker 4: excess energy, so we imported the box site we smelted it,

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Speaker 4: so effectively we're exporting energy. So when the price of

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Speaker 4: energy starts to go up, then the price of aluminium

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Speaker 4: has to tack up to take that into account. Therefore,

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Speaker 4: you've got a lot of these aluminium plants in the

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Speaker 4: Middle East where there's lots of plentiful energy close by,

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Speaker 4: so that's having an impact on the aluminium price.

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Speaker 3: Thank you very much. Indeed, Arthur Carris has brought folio

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Speaker 3: manager at Macro Solutions at the Old Mutual Investment Group,

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Speaker 3: bringing the time to six thirty.

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Speaker 2: What's up to see them on seventy two two one.

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Speaker 3: Twenty three minutes to seven. I'm just sort of thinking

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Speaker 3: about my trip to the petrol station earlier today and

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Speaker 3: I was lucky enough to be able to do it

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Speaker 3: during sort of working hours. Many people would not be.

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Speaker 3: I know many people will also be waiting until the

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Speaker 3: last minute tomorrow. I completely understand that does depend also

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Speaker 3: where you are, where the filling station is, your roots

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Speaker 3: and all of that sort of thing. Can you hear

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Speaker 3: your experiences though, are just normal. I mean I've been

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Speaker 3: to a filling station in a kind of the biggest

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Speaker 3: traveling day of the year, you know. I think December fifteenth,

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Speaker 3: a couple of years ago was huge. You get to

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Speaker 3: one of the filling stations in harry Smith. I mean,

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Speaker 3: anyone going to Cazaden is probably going to stop there.

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Speaker 3: They had about three times as many staff as they

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Speaker 3: normally do. They had a DJ on the four Courts,

437
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 3: which was actually quite fun. I mean that gave it

438
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:41,040
Speaker 3: a vibe, you know. I mean I hadn't seen a

439
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 3: DJ on the four Court before, but maybe I just

440
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,440
Speaker 3: hadn't lived and that was pretty cool, and I thought,

441
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 3: actually there might be a way for someone to roll

442
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 3: with the punch on a holiday though start of a holiday.

443
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 3: A DJ on a four court works when everyone's going

444
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 3: in grudge grudge to do this now, maybe not so much.

445
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 3: Recommendations on a playlist please for the fuel price increase

446
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 3: seven two seven two one seven twenty two minutes to seven.

447
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:11,200
Speaker 1: The Lanly Show with Stephen Cruds Live on ninety two

448
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,600
Speaker 1: point seven and one six FM, streaming on the Prime

449
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 1: Media Plus.

450
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,160
Speaker 2: NAP and DStv channel eight five six.

451
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,719
Speaker 3: We'll good to hear from you this evening. A report

452
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:26,440
Speaker 3: on Bloomberg today Lissutu's Natural Resources Minister Machromi Moleko saying

453
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 3: they'll be looking for more compensation for the money they

454
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 3: sent to us through the Suto Highlands Water Project. The

455
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 3: terms of the deal between US and the SUTU are

456
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 3: due to be discussed through the month of April. Professor

457
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,159
Speaker 3: Mike Muller is a visiting professor in the School of

458
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,480
Speaker 3: Governance at Its University, among many other roles that he's

459
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:47,359
Speaker 3: played over the over the years. Mike, good evening, This

460
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,400
Speaker 3: first deal was signed back nineteen eighty six. I think

461
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,399
Speaker 3: it was. How is LSUTU compensated? Now, how does this

462
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,119
Speaker 3: deal really work at the moment?

463
00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 9: Well, I mean evening to you, Stephen and to your listen.

464
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 9: You know the deal has evolved over time, but the

465
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 9: basic principle is that South Africa saved a lot of

466
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 9: money by taking money taking water from Lasuu and instead

467
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 9: of pumping it up from the Orange River at Alimal North,

468
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 9: allowing it to run down from the mountain towards Karteng.

469
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 9: We saved a lot of money. We could have had

470
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,120
Speaker 9: that other option, but it was agreed that if we

471
00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:29,399
Speaker 9: were going to use the Lasuitu territory to bring the

472
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 9: water to Karteng, we needed to pay lasuit To some

473
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 9: compensation and that compensation was calculated on the basis that

474
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 9: they were helping us to save money. They deserve the

475
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,159
Speaker 9: share of that saving and they get more than half

476
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 9: of the value of the saving over time.

477
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:52,720
Speaker 3: Now we seem to have lost Mike Malaver. I'm hoping

478
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 3: that there will.

479
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 9: Be basically that's got to be adjusted as inflation, as

480
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 9: to say South Africa money.

481
00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 3: Sorry, are you hearing me? Yes, we are now, Mike.

482
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 3: We did you for a little bit of for a moment.

483
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 3: You were saying when we last heard you that Lasuita

484
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 3: needed to get over half of the money that we

485
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 3: were saving.

486
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,120
Speaker 9: Yes, indeed, and you know, there've been some adjustments. They've

487
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 9: got to be operational costs that are covered. But the

488
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 9: basic principle has remained the same and it's done well

489
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 9: for both countries. South Africa has saved money and got

490
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 9: water reliably and Lasuta has got a reliable share of

491
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,680
Speaker 9: revenue which doesn't change by the way, you know, because

492
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 9: they have a guaranteed supply from the dams and we

493
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 9: give them a guaranteed payment for the water. So it's

494
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:40,439
Speaker 9: been working quite well. There is a problem though. It

495
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:42,920
Speaker 9: is one of the major sources of revenue of Lasutu,

496
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 9: and quite frankly, every time there's a new government in Lasutu,

497
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 9: one of the things they look at and say, could

498
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 9: we squeeze some more money out of South Africa. It's

499
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 9: an unfortunate but obvious approach to take. It doesn't.

500
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 3: Oh year that seems to have disappeared.

501
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 9: Now they build strong relationships and it can be Now

502
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 9: I'm back again. Sorry, I'm in a cry and I

503
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:11,919
Speaker 9: thought the university's internet was good, but it's not as

504
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 9: good as I thought?

505
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 3: Can you hear me?

506
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 10: Now?

507
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 9: I'll try and get.

508
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 3: Yes, we can, Mike, thank you. So okay, I understand

509
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 3: what you say. I mean, politics being politics. Is it

510
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 3: a simple thing to change or is it a pretty

511
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 3: kind of ironclad contract. I mean, if I were the

512
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 3: South African government, I'll be saying to listen to now,

513
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:34,679
Speaker 3: hold on, you can't do this every time you have

514
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 3: an election or whatever. So we're now going to put

515
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:37,919
Speaker 3: something in stone.

516
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 9: Yeah, I think that there is a provision to review

517
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 9: to the treaty, and that's the one side of it,

518
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 9: and there's got to be some good reason to do that,

519
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,160
Speaker 9: and it's not obvious what that would be. Much more important, though,

520
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 9: there are other things that could be done in Lawsuitu

521
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 9: that will make a difference both to South Africa and

522
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 9: to Lasutu and increase income for La Suitu. And I

523
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 9: think it would be much more sensible to talk about

524
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 9: the options rather than a.

525
00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think we are probably going to have to

526
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 3: abandon this, even though it is one of the most

527
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,639
Speaker 3: interesting conversations I can imagine moving about.

528
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 9: You know, let's have an argument on both to yield more,

529
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 9: to yield more for su than it does at the moment.

530
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 3: Just while we've got you, would electricity be an option?

531
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,680
Speaker 3: Often when you have a dam, you can generate electricity.

532
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 3: Is that a conversation people could who should be having.

533
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:37,159
Speaker 9: It's a conversation that's very much on the agenda. And

534
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 9: one of the problems is that La Suta has a

535
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 9: project for electricity related to the second phase of the

536
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,280
Speaker 9: Suitor Project program, and they don't seem to want to

537
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 9: take it further.

538
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 3: All right, we'll have to leave that there. I think

539
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 3: we'll give up on that conversation for the moment. Unfortunately,

540
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 3: Professor Mike Manna, thank you. I do appreciate you to

541
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 3: do that. Visiting professor in the School of Governance at

542
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 3: Vits University. An interesting conversation, an important conversation too, because

543
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 3: and I mean, I'm no rocket scientist, I'm no hydrologists,

544
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 3: but I think you and I both know that if

545
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 3: we don't have some kind of agreement with LSUTU, well,

546
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 3: Ha TENG is in all sorts of trouble. And that's

547
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 3: a huge part of our economy. I can't really imagine

548
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 3: any other way to do it. And we know that

549
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 3: with the water we get from Nasutu currently, in the

550
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 3: amount that gets wasted, in the amount that we sort

551
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 3: of overuse, how important a source of water is. So

552
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 3: if that gets removed, we really are in very serious trouble.

553
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 3: I have to say, though, are's I think Professor Mallow

554
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 3: was sort of alluding to. We also give LASU to

555
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 3: money and this is a big source of income for them,

556
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 3: and as a result of that would be foolish, I think,

557
00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 3: to sort of overplay their hand too much. But these

558
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 3: are some of the things that really we do need

559
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 3: to just see if we're able to that these are

560
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 3: some of the things that people are looking at. I

561
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 3: would also just say that when it comes to water,

562
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 3: it's just a reminder of how important it is to

563
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,719
Speaker 3: think over the longer term. And so many of the

564
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 3: issues we have now are because we don't think over

565
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 3: the longer term. Our courts aren't big enough, we don't

566
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 3: have enough judges, we don't have enough teachers, we don't

567
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 3: have enough schools, even though we all knew for a

568
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 3: long time that our population was going to increase, and

569
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 3: so that's been the case with water as well. One

570
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 3: of the reasons we're where we are is that we

571
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 3: have not been keeping up with a base of development

572
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 3: in so many parts of Jobig and so many other

573
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 3: places too. And this really does require some long term

574
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 3: strategic thinking about what you're going to do, how are

575
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 3: you going to do it, which is the best outcome

576
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 3: for everybody, And that is something just something maybe we

577
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 3: need to think about a little bit more. So I'm

578
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 3: hoping at some point both here and in Lasutu, you

579
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 3: need this. In au democracies, you do need longer term thinking.

580
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 3: And we know and this happens that politicians are often

581
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 3: short terms and they're short term mist because of the

582
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 3: way that we make them correctly face elections. So interesting

583
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 3: just to see what's going to happen to that relationship

584
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 3: with Lucutu. It is absolutely something we will return to.

585
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 3: Good Year from you this evening on seven two seven

586
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 3: oh two one seven two. It's twelve minutes now to seven.

587
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 9: For money Show.

588
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 11: Stephen Krutez is brought to you by Absence Sponsorships, the

589
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:28,719
Speaker 11: croud sponsor of the absurd gape Epic celebrating twenty years

590
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 11: of taking it to the trails.

591
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 6: Apps as are registered FSP.

592
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 3: Good Year from you this evening. Well, you would of

593
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 3: course have been watching the situation around fuel prices, and

594
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 3: they've been a few reminders today about how extensive and

595
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 3: long term the knock on effects of higher fuel prices

596
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 3: could be. First the Civil Confidence Index compiled by F

597
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 3: and B in the Bureau for Economic Research. This is

598
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 3: confidence in the civil construction industry, falling from fifty two

599
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 3: to forty three in the first three months of this year.

600
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 3: Then a warning from Master Build South Africa that fuel

601
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 3: prices could affect projects and crucially the agreements that government.

602
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 3: You can imagine the long term nature of some of

603
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 3: these agreements. Roy m nissis the executive director of master

604
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 3: Builder South Africa. Roy, good evening. I think you've had

605
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 3: to step out of something to speak to us, so

606
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 3: I really appreciate the time. Thank you. We all know

607
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 3: fuel prices affect the price of a construction project. How

608
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 3: worried are you about it knocking effects on your industry?

609
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 10: Yes, indeed, Stevin, we are one of the industries that

610
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 10: are directly affected by the fuel prices. This is so

611
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 10: because we rely a lot on it for our operations,

612
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 10: the transporting of the material, transporting of our employees to

613
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 10: construction site and the use of the machinery that we

614
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 10: use on site. So significant pushing of our costing goes

615
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 10: through full Well. So whenever there is a huge adjustment

616
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 10: of full well more, especially up what mental wealth, we will.

617
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 6: Suffer a lot.

618
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 3: I mean many contracts were signed long before anyone had

619
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 3: any idea that this could all happen. Could that lead

620
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 3: to quite a difficult situation. The last thing anyone wants

621
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 3: in a construction project is a dispute about the costs.

622
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 10: Yes, indeed, it will definitely affect project delivery timelines because

623
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 10: when you get to an into a contract, you agree

624
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 10: on a commencement date and the completion dates. So with

625
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 10: the high prices of material, patrol, diesel and other things,

626
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 10: it will definitely affect it in that manner, and in

627
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 10: some instances it will affect some of the projects in

628
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 10: terms of the dispute because when you are a mean

629
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 10: to build, you know your your your your your your

630
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 10: your your your your your your assets. For example, you're

631
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 10: building our tailor, I've got time frame within which it

632
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 10: had to start operating. If you're building a shopping center,

633
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 10: you've got a time frame within which it would be operating.

634
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,120
Speaker 10: And if the act delease then and then the disputes

635
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 10: are declared, then it becomes a problem for us. So

636
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 10: it's very very much significant for us. It will as

637
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:20,080
Speaker 10: well interrupt the procrammance circles because now contractors will have

638
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 10: to embark on looking at the agreement, trying to get

639
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 10: extension of time, trying to adjust the contract to factor

640
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 10: in those prices. Because in some instances I can tell

641
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 10: you without that in my mind that if I'm in

642
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 10: a project this are multi year I mean multi year projects.

643
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:43,359
Speaker 10: If it were to continue with the pricing, that was

644
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 10: a greater pont at the beginning of the contract, you

645
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 10: can go without a profit. Profit margins in the construction

646
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:52,319
Speaker 10: circles cadents are very very low.

647
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 3: I mean, I mean, and that's really the issue. So

648
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 3: if you're you know, someone involved in one of these projects,

649
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 3: how do you resolve it? What do you do? I mean,

650
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 3: do you actually try and have a conversation with your customer?

651
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 3: Do you do something like that now? I mean, do

652
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 3: you try and do it early on?

653
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 10: Yes, For contracts that have already been impered into a running,

654
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 10: the most prudent way to approach it is for the

655
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:30,480
Speaker 10: parties to get together and try to spread this risk

656
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,839
Speaker 10: because nobody knew about it at the point of contracting.

657
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,879
Speaker 10: No one knew that would be in a situation where

658
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 10: we are now. So that is one of the areas

659
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 10: that were encouraging our members contractors in the name to say,

660
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 10: look at renegotiating the contracts and see if it can work.

661
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 10: It must work, because it is nothing like that happens

662
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 10: then it creates a problem. That's where you end up

663
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 10: with the dispute. But for contracts that had been that,

664
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 10: we encourage our members to actually lope very carefully. You know,

665
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 10: they are quoting requirements. It's not difficult, Stiven, because you

666
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 10: don't know. This time around it's you know, eight run

667
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 10: for desire. Next time it may be fourteen rund. The

668
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 10: other time it may be twenty RAM. So you can't

669
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 10: really tell exactly where you're going to be. So it's

670
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 10: something that needs to be continuous at this point in

671
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 10: time up until things becomes normal. But for now you

672
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 10: really do not know.

673
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 3: The other thing, Roy, if I were in your business,

674
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 3: and many businesses will be in this position, someone might

675
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 3: be in a negotiation about building a new shopping center

676
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 3: or something, and the client will just say, we need

677
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 3: to wait for this to be over because we can't

678
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 3: sign an agreement now I don't know what's going to happen.

679
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 3: And isn't that really a problem for you?

680
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 10: It's also a problem, and not only for us as

681
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 10: the sector, but it's a problem for the economy because

682
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 10: our sector is one of the drivers of economic growth.

683
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 10: So if you left project postponed up until the war

684
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 10: has ended, which we don't know when it's going to end,

685
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 10: it will it will effect. It will affect the economy,

686
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 10: and when the economy is affected, it affects the employment,

687
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 10: It affects you know, the economic development of you know,

688
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 10: the countries that it affects so many things did so

689
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:25,200
Speaker 10: that will not be attainable. You know, option that the

690
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 10: right option is to look at ways in which we

691
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 10: can continue with the project. We can continue with the

692
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 10: work at the end, and we can continue even with

693
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 10: work that was planned to happen, because despite the fact

694
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 10: that there's war and interruptions, economy has to run on

695
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 10: the other side, you know.

696
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:46,080
Speaker 3: I mean the other problem is some industries can maybe

697
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 3: avoid some film I mean costs in some ways, but

698
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,320
Speaker 3: you can't. I can't imagine, you know, as a mixer

699
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,280
Speaker 3: running on electricity.

700
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 10: That that is corrective in machinery a lot. So yeah,

701
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 10: it can be on electricity. It can be on electricity

702
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:08,319
Speaker 10: and just a mere transportation of the the material, a

703
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 10: mere transportation of employees to the site. You know, you

704
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 10: can't use electricity.

705
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 3: I mean all of us. I mean. The other problem

706
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:18,239
Speaker 3: is the share uncertainty, isn't it right? I mean, no

707
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 3: one knows what's going to happen, and that uncertainty affects

708
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 3: every single long term industry there is, including yours.

709
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 10: Yes, definitely, Steven, and many would argue with me that

710
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:35,360
Speaker 10: you cannot plan for, you know, global disasters like war,

711
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 10: you know, outbreak of diseases like COVID as we add it.

712
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:43,759
Speaker 10: But the reality is that still at some point we

713
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 10: need to appreciate that these things are going to happen

714
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 10: in one way or the other. And I think as

715
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:52,840
Speaker 10: a country we need to begin and even at the factor,

716
00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 10: we need to begin to look at ways in which

717
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,359
Speaker 10: we can deal with this because it's so sad for us.

718
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 10: We're coming from the devastation of the twenty or eight

719
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 10: economic you know in the global financial yes, yeah, and

720
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 10: then we had COVID ninety six years down the line

721
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 10: and trying to recover from it, we did a little bit.

722
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 10: Well lucky numbers are showing some improvement. Then now you

723
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 10: have got this challenge. So it's really really devastating.

724
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 3: Royan Nissi, thanks so much, Executive director at master Builders

725
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 3: South Africa. No one's going to be spared from this.

726
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 1: I have to say, Stephen is gone x at at Stephen,

727
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 1: so lex what's happening saying Stephen?

728
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 3: The fact that they say previously had a huge amount

729
00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 3: of strategic oil reserves which then sold over the pittance

730
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 3: and a deal and a corrupt deal driven by the

731
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 3: A and C as part of the direct course of

732
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 3: the huge increase in petrol and diesel prices. So let's

733
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 3: just a couple of things. We've always had a strategic

734
00:39:56,160 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 3: fuel reserve. The thing you're talking about was actually overturned

735
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 3: in the end by the courts. And you're talking about

736
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 3: the fact that the oil reserve was sold off at

737
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 3: a very cheap price to people who would then obviously

738
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,279
Speaker 3: benefit when the price went up, and we would end

739
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 3: up having to restore that when the price went up.

740
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 3: But that was reversed. It didn't happen, and it's important

741
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:19,280
Speaker 3: to remember that the oil never actually left those tanks.

742
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 3: It's also not a huge amount at the moment. I

743
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 3: think it's about two to three weeks of national use,

744
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 3: which is not a huge amount. And just bear in mind,

745
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 3: unfortunately these prices are set internationally. It's a bit like

746
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 3: a food prices. You might think, well, it rained a

747
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 3: lot in the maize belt in South Africa, therefore maze

748
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,880
Speaker 3: prices will be cheaper. They won't be, I'm afraid, because

749
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 3: of the way that a food is traded on international markets.

750
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,720
Speaker 3: One other thing, by the way, there was a time

751
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 3: next week you are correct, where we did have a

752
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 3: huge strategic oil reserve. And in fact, I mean I

753
00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 3: was sort of told during the time. I mean I

754
00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 3: was a kid that you know, the oil was being

755
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 3: kept underground in old mining shafts, and that oil. Would

756
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 3: you like to know where it came from? Anyone? Anyone?

757
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 3: It came from Iran, from the previous government, not the

758
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:11,799
Speaker 3: current government. It came from the time of the Show

759
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 3: of Iran. What did we give Iran and respond in return? Well,

760
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,320
Speaker 3: I wasn't really paying much attention at the time because

761
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 3: I was about four. But my understanding and the consistent

762
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 3: reporting from people who I trust, was that it was

763
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 3: actually in some cases artillery pieces even you know the

764
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 3: G four and the G five. There's rocket, there's basically

765
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:34,359
Speaker 3: there's sort of a very special cannon that were made

766
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 3: by the Apartheight era, by the Apartheight government. You might

767
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 3: know more about that than I do. Would be good

768
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,239
Speaker 3: to hear from you on that and maybe put me right.

769
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 3: I I've got a fact, they're wrong, But that was

770
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 3: my understanding. So the ironies of history, Where did we

771
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 3: get that oil from? From Iran? Yeah? Very interesting. You

772
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:51,839
Speaker 3: have the money show seven o'clock.

773
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: And now The Money Show with Stephen Striders on seven

774
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 1: oh two.

775
00:41:58,120 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 2: Let's walk at All.

776
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 3: The Money Show with Stephen Curtis is brought to you

777
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:05,839
Speaker 3: by Abscess Sponsorships, proud sponsor of the ape Epic, celebrating

778
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 3: twenty years of taking it to the trails. ABSA is

779
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 3: a registered FSP. Seven minutes now after seven the time

780
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 3: we will talk about generational wealth in a moment. I mean,

781
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 3: so many people think about what that is, but what

782
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 3: you know the best way to kind of get there.

783
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:24,879
Speaker 3: We'll talk to Haley Parrier, money coach and facilitator at

784
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 3: one Life's Truth about Money in just a moment. Doctor

785
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:32,360
Speaker 3: Mark Nasila is the author of the book Mastering Sovereign

786
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 3: Artificial Intelligence. I'm going to have to start off by

787
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 3: asking him what that is. He's sitting right behind me

788
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:39,800
Speaker 3: at the moment. He'll be with you in just a

789
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:42,400
Speaker 3: couple of moments. And then how I make my money

790
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:47,840
Speaker 3: career is understanding what happens in our gaming economy. Raymond

791
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:52,239
Speaker 3: led Waba is the CEO of I Think Gaming. I

792
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 3: fascinating to see someone making money out of that in particular,

793
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,320
Speaker 3: maybe not the example that you want for your teenager,

794
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 3: but maybe in fact the example that your teenager needs.

795
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:05,560
Speaker 3: So looking forward to that conversation in the next little

796
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:07,319
Speaker 3: while as well. Could hear from you of course on

797
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:09,560
Speaker 3: a double one double A three oh seven two two

798
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:11,959
Speaker 3: one four four six O five six seven and voice

799
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,320
Speaker 3: notes on seven two seven oh two one seven oh two.

800
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 1: The Lay Show with Stephen krudis live on ninety two

801
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,400
Speaker 1: point seven and one o six f M, streaming on

802
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 1: the Prime Media Plus.

803
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 2: NAP and DStv channel eight five six.

804
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 3: So when you think of the brand name Nesle, the

805
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 3: company Nesley, you probably think of various things. You'd probably

806
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 3: think of chocolate first. It turns out that in Europe,

807
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 3: on one of their shipments, I presume a big truck

808
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 3: it was going from Italy to Poland, someone decided to

809
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:52,759
Speaker 3: steal not one or two kitkats, twelve tons of Kitkats.

810
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:54,839
Speaker 3: I've been trying to do the maths of how many

811
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 3: that would be. They described them in units. I've never

812
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 3: had a unit of Kitcat. I've got to say, I've

813
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,319
Speaker 3: had fingers of KitKat, and I've had KitKat bars, but

814
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:06,919
Speaker 3: I've never had a unit of KitKat. What's the unit

815
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 3: of Kitkats like having a unit of tea? Doesn't make

816
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 3: any sense to me. Twelve tons. So if you come

817
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 3: across some cut price kidcat over the holiday season, over

818
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:20,719
Speaker 3: the chocolate eating season, you probably know where it's come from,

819
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:23,279
Speaker 3: although it'll come a long way. I just would like

820
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 3: to know. I mean, there's such a great movie here,

821
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 3: the Great Chocolate Heist. You know, have a break, steal

822
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 3: a kitcat whatever, steal a break, have a KitKat, something

823
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 3: along those lines. But your movie titles, please for the

824
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:38,160
Speaker 3: movie heist, the heist movie about the theft of KitKat chocolate.

825
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 3: I mean, really, if you're going to steal something, you

826
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:45,320
Speaker 3: could at least make it a five star. Ten minutes after.

827
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 1: Seven's on the Money Shows six to eight pm.

828
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 3: How many adverts do you think you've seen in your

829
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 3: life of some bank or financial institution that will have

830
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 3: images of an older person and a child and the

831
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 3: whole point of the ad, I mean, all sorts of

832
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 3: words and wonderful music and all of that, what they're

833
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 3: really saying is if you give us your money, you

834
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 3: will have generational wealth. It's a very powerful message. If

835
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 3: you do something right today, your grandchildren will be the

836
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 3: ones to benefit. But how do we rarely view generational

837
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:19,919
Speaker 3: wealth Haley Parry is a money coaching facilitator at One

838
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:22,760
Speaker 3: Life's Truth about Money. Helly, good, evening, Good to chat again.

839
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:28,720
Speaker 3: I would imagine everybody, when they think about it, wants

840
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 3: to build generational wealth, but how do we really define it.

841
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 12: Evening, Stephen. Yeah, I think everyone's after a five star

842
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 12: financial legacy right very much.

843
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 13: So, yes, rather than needing to take a break with

844
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:50,319
Speaker 13: their finances. So yeah, I mean, I think from a

845
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 13: generational wealth perspective, you know, it's this elusive thing because

846
00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:58,440
Speaker 13: we want to get it right for ourselves, but often

847
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 13: I think we want we really want to get it

848
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:03,319
Speaker 13: right for our kids to save them perhaps some of

849
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 13: the pain that we've had ourselves in our financial journeys.

850
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 12: And so that's why this is such.

851
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 13: A great survey because it really just taps into how.

852
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,279
Speaker 12: People are thinking and feeling about.

853
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:20,400
Speaker 13: Their money and what they think it is at the

854
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 13: moment that they can do to try and get this right.

855
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 12: And I think one of the.

856
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 13: Most impressive figures that we saw coming out of this

857
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:35,360
Speaker 13: latest generational wealth survey from One Life is that ninety

858
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:38,239
Speaker 13: nine percent of survey respondents say that wealth building is

859
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 13: important to them, and more than two thirds of South

860
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 13: Africans believe that they can do that even on a

861
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 13: modest income. And that's really quite something because last year

862
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 13: that figure was sitting at thirty five percent. So something

863
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 13: has definitely shifted where South Africans are not only feeling

864
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 13: more hopeful, but also feeling more empowered about how to

865
00:46:58,160 --> 00:46:58,640
Speaker 13: get there.

866
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 3: I mean, if you say to average people, are you

867
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,320
Speaker 3: able to save I'm almost certain that you know ninety

868
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:06,839
Speaker 3: percent are going to say no, I'm not because life

869
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 3: is too expensive. I need to do this, I need

870
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 3: to do this. And we can tell, obviously because are

871
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:14,880
Speaker 3: people who have jobs and a pension how much money

872
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:17,319
Speaker 3: is taken out of that savings pot every tax. Yes,

873
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:20,239
Speaker 3: so we can tell that people are stretched. How are

874
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:24,320
Speaker 3: people actually able to manage it, you know, to actually

875
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:26,920
Speaker 3: say no, no, no, I'm still quite optimistic about being

876
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:28,359
Speaker 3: able to do this in some way.

877
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 12: Yeah, Look, that is the reality on the ground. We

878
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:34,279
Speaker 12: know that.

879
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:38,360
Speaker 13: It's been tough for most South Africans for quite a

880
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:42,359
Speaker 13: long time, you know. And one of the things that

881
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 13: we always teach when we looking at this from a

882
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:49,719
Speaker 13: financial education perspective is really the name of the game

883
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:52,320
Speaker 13: is it's not about how much you make it's about

884
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 13: how much you keep and anything that goes into the

885
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,759
Speaker 13: savings pot or into the investment pot is part of

886
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 13: that definition of making yourself personally profitable. And so what

887
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:08,120
Speaker 13: we're seeing is that, you know, we've we've got different

888
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:12,279
Speaker 13: trends coming through. We see that sixty percent or just

889
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 13: under sixty percent of respond and say they're just surviving

890
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 13: and around thirty percent of people saying that they are

891
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 13: struggling financially.

892
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:24,440
Speaker 12: However, on the f side, there are a lot of.

893
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 13: There are a lot of positive indicators that have come

894
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:31,920
Speaker 13: out of the indexes here, and for me, you know,

895
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 13: that is showing that even though people are acknowledging that

896
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:38,279
Speaker 13: they might have a bad month, you know, as you say,

897
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 13: particularly when times are tough, we've got petrol price increases coming,

898
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 13: what people are doing is they are becoming more financially

899
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 13: resilient because they're looking at this.

900
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 12: And saying, well, even if this is a bad.

901
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 13: Month, I'm going to regroup and I'm going to go

902
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:54,319
Speaker 13: and get it right next year and so.

903
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 12: Sorry next month.

904
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 13: And so this is part of this developing this financial

905
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 13: resilience is understanding that this is an ongoing effort and

906
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:07,960
Speaker 13: we need to persist in not only doing the right

907
00:49:08,000 --> 00:49:10,920
Speaker 13: things with our money, but also getting ourselves an increasing

908
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 13: level of knowledge and confidence around our money, around what

909
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:16,920
Speaker 13: we can do better and differently.

910
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 12: So that we can continue to improve on the metrics

911
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 12: that matter.

912
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:24,400
Speaker 3: I mean, for years, the people will say South Africans

913
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:27,719
Speaker 3: don't save, and sometimes I think there's a little bit

914
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:30,320
Speaker 3: of a preachy thing to it. And I understand why

915
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,719
Speaker 3: people are so worried about that, because saving is so important,

916
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:37,279
Speaker 3: but again, people just have not been able to at

917
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:40,360
Speaker 3: the same time, though for at least probably Hailey, I

918
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 3: don't know, the last twenty years, there's been so much

919
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 3: public education about saving for the future, sometimes in schools,

920
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:54,120
Speaker 3: sometimes on shows like this one. Sometimes corporate or financial

921
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 3: institutions have had adverts or whatever it is. And I

922
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 3: sometimes wonder if that if the financial literacy of our society,

923
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 3: despite everything, has actually started to improve almost without us knowing,

924
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:08,280
Speaker 3: in the last twenty years. I mean, maybe I'm sounding

925
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:10,759
Speaker 3: hopelessly optimistic, but I sometimes wonder if that might be

926
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 3: the case.

927
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:15,319
Speaker 12: Stephen, I'm not.

928
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:17,720
Speaker 13: Sure if you're preaching to the choir, but I feel

929
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:20,800
Speaker 13: the same way. You know, to give you an idea

930
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:24,080
Speaker 13: in this survey where we were chatting to people, forty

931
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 13: two percent of respondents said that they have a savings

932
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 13: or an emergency fund in place. Now, I remember doing

933
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:33,799
Speaker 13: interviews like this a couple of years ago and that

934
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 13: number was significantly lower, and so I do feel that

935
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:44,440
Speaker 13: there are there is definitely a level of financial literacy

936
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:48,920
Speaker 13: that's increased. But critically, I think a lot of people

937
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:52,359
Speaker 13: understand that financial literacy actually isn't good enough anymore. And

938
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:55,319
Speaker 13: that's where this aspirational element of what do we do

939
00:50:57,080 --> 00:50:59,359
Speaker 13: you know that's better than that, you know, if that's

940
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:02,120
Speaker 13: the baseline, how can we do and do things differently?

941
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:08,680
Speaker 13: And understanding you know, additional financial services and products, Understanding

942
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 13: how you can go from saving and then to investing,

943
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 13: how you can protect your downside, for example, with life insurance.

944
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:19,720
Speaker 13: All of these are important steps in not only having

945
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:23,440
Speaker 13: a nation that's financially literate, but rather one that is

946
00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 13: financially healthy. And there are a lot of efforts that

947
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:31,440
Speaker 13: have taken place, you know, from the financial services industry,

948
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:36,320
Speaker 13: from you know, like you said, platforms like yours, businesses

949
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:41,040
Speaker 13: like ours, where financial education and genuine financial wellness is

950
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:43,360
Speaker 13: actually the aim of the game. And I do like

951
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:48,760
Speaker 13: to believe that some of these efforts really are paying dividends.

952
00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:52,359
Speaker 3: Does it change the decisions people make, perhaps at quite

953
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:56,279
Speaker 3: an early age, whereas maybe someone at sort of you know,

954
00:51:57,000 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 3: just finishing whatever tertiary qualification they were able to get

955
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:04,280
Speaker 3: and they're able to get money for might think, well, actually,

956
00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 3: I'm going to start a business because that's going to

957
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 3: provide an employment for my children. I mean, I see

958
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 3: so many businesses now where you can see someone who

959
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:16,320
Speaker 3: started this or has created a situation where their children

960
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 3: will be able to take that over. And you can

961
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:21,879
Speaker 3: understand why, because to find a position for a young person,

962
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:23,720
Speaker 3: a job for a young person can be so tough.

963
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 3: Could it actually be changing the career decisions people are

964
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 3: make this idea of a longer term kind of thing.

965
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:33,920
Speaker 3: This is not just for me, This is actually for

966
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 3: two or three generations from me.

967
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 12: Yeah, absolutely, I think.

968
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:44,440
Speaker 13: I mean it's interesting because we see so many of

969
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:45,920
Speaker 13: these different metrix shiftings.

970
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 12: So you're talking about owning a business.

971
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 13: For instance, in the survey when we ask that question,

972
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:55,359
Speaker 13: only twelve percent of people regarded owning a business as a.

973
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 12: Form of wealth building.

974
00:52:56,719 --> 00:52:56,959
Speaker 6: Right.

975
00:52:57,440 --> 00:52:59,799
Speaker 13: But what was interesting on the flip side is that

976
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:05,960
Speaker 13: only six percent are associating wealth with cars or luxury possessions,

977
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:09,160
Speaker 13: whereas last year that figure was closer to twenty percent.

978
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:16,520
Speaker 13: So we're seeing shifting changes in not only how people

979
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:21,440
Speaker 13: are making decisions, but also the perception of wealth where

980
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:24,759
Speaker 13: you know, people are shifting. What this means, you know,

981
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:27,960
Speaker 13: So perhaps we've got a younger generation who are less

982
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:34,239
Speaker 13: focused on things and more focused on certain freedoms, you know,

983
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:37,279
Speaker 13: which is possibly different to the generation that you and

984
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:39,400
Speaker 13: I grew up in. And so I do think this

985
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:42,240
Speaker 13: is coming into play. I mean, I'll give you an example.

986
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:44,839
Speaker 13: I had a conversation with somebody who finished metric last

987
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:49,880
Speaker 13: year and she had done mass literacy, and she was

988
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:55,360
Speaker 13: asking me pretty detailed questions around compound interests that she

989
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 13: had studied as part of the budgeting aspect on her,

990
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 13: you know, within her mass curriculum. And I must say,

991
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:07,520
Speaker 13: I found it really heartening that this is part of

992
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:09,840
Speaker 13: the education that our kids are getting at school, because

993
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:13,480
Speaker 13: it definitely wasn't like that when you and I were school.

994
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 13: I mean, I finished university with a bee common and

995
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:19,200
Speaker 13: we hadn't spent more than half an hour in personal finances,

996
00:54:19,239 --> 00:54:21,839
Speaker 13: you know, So there is definitely a changing shift here

997
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:23,839
Speaker 13: and for me it is really interesting to see how

998
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:27,520
Speaker 13: it's coming through into these different numbers. And as you mentioned,

999
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:30,800
Speaker 13: you know in two different decisions that the youngsters are.

1000
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:33,799
Speaker 3: Making too helly. Thank you so much, Haley Parry. There's

1001
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:37,000
Speaker 3: a money coach and facilitator at one Life's Truth About

1002
00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:38,920
Speaker 3: Money nineteen after seven, The.

1003
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:41,000
Speaker 2: Money Show for business books.

1004
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:45,600
Speaker 3: Well your book this week. It's called Mastering Sovereign Artificial Intelligence,

1005
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:49,279
Speaker 3: Owning and Shaping the future in the Age of AI.

1006
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:52,680
Speaker 3: It's by doctor Mark Nzilla. It has a picture of

1007
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:56,560
Speaker 3: him on the front of half of his brain seemingly

1008
00:54:56,680 --> 00:54:58,880
Speaker 3: encased in metal and pleased to tell you that he

1009
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:01,160
Speaker 3: clearly survived. The expert is because he's sitting in front

1010
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 3: of me now, Market evening. Thanks so much for coming in.

1011
00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 14: Good evening, Steven, thank you for having me and to

1012
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:09,080
Speaker 14: the listeners. He's also the chief data and Analytics officer

1013
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:10,439
Speaker 14: at F and B Risk.

1014
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:13,479
Speaker 3: Mark. I'm sorry to start with such a silly question,

1015
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:15,520
Speaker 3: but what I know what AI is? But I think

1016
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:20,320
Speaker 3: I do what is sovereign AI? Steven, Sovereign AI.

1017
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:23,799
Speaker 14: It's about the ability of a nation or an organization

1018
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:28,920
Speaker 14: to control the AI development value chain, and maybe to

1019
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 14: give it a bit of more context. For a long time,

1020
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:35,240
Speaker 14: especially over the last three years, we've been talking about

1021
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 14: AI to drive efficiency, to drive effectiveness, to help come

1022
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:43,839
Speaker 14: up with innovations and drive digitizations. But if you look

1023
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:48,160
Speaker 14: at what's been happening, the impact of AI goes beyond

1024
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:49,600
Speaker 14: just those benefits.

1025
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:53,120
Speaker 3: AI is influencing geopolitics.

1026
00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:56,759
Speaker 14: I think you saw France Germans start to phace away

1027
00:55:56,800 --> 00:55:59,800
Speaker 14: the use of zoom and teams with a view of

1028
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 14: the independent. Technologically, AI is a big drive of national security.

1029
00:56:05,080 --> 00:56:08,880
Speaker 14: We've seen what America and Anthropic have been having controversy about.

1030
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:13,480
Speaker 14: But AI is also driving the ability to solve social problems,

1031
00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 14: the ability to create new industries manufacturing, and and and

1032
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:24,920
Speaker 14: and build infrastructure. In fact, it's reimagining the future of economies.

1033
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:29,520
Speaker 14: Because of all these benefits, we're now looking at AI

1034
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:35,280
Speaker 14: as a national strategic driver, and because of these, nations

1035
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:38,880
Speaker 14: want to control the whole value chain because just the

1036
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:42,080
Speaker 14: output from AI will drive the benefits I talked about.

1037
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:45,560
Speaker 14: But the future of nations and organizations defend depend on

1038
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:49,080
Speaker 14: controlling the whole development value chain of AI, and that's

1039
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:52,759
Speaker 14: what AI sovereignty is all about.

1040
00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:54,640
Speaker 3: It seems to me that we are just what I

1041
00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:58,720
Speaker 3: would call AI takers. We are not AI formers. And

1042
00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:01,560
Speaker 3: I mean I'm speaking just as a South African. I

1043
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:03,040
Speaker 3: don't know if that applies to the rest of the

1044
00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:06,759
Speaker 3: continent as well. Maybe you one hundred percent right.

1045
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:11,280
Speaker 14: When I wrote my first book about you know, African

1046
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:16,120
Speaker 14: artificial intelligence, it was about leveraging AI as consumers.

1047
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:18,840
Speaker 3: It was about using it to make predictions.

1048
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:22,960
Speaker 14: It was about identifying opportunities for AI to digitize things.

1049
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:29,840
Speaker 14: But you see, being a national strategic asset means looking

1050
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:33,080
Speaker 14: at data and AI the way we've looked at minerals

1051
00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:36,640
Speaker 14: like gold, and for us to get the maximum benefit,

1052
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:39,200
Speaker 14: we need to look at it from a manufacturing lens.

1053
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:43,920
Speaker 14: There is no nation that has ever realized its potential

1054
00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:48,840
Speaker 14: by outsourcing the processing of its national resource, the same

1055
00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:51,760
Speaker 14: way there is no nation that has realized its potential

1056
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:59,080
Speaker 14: ability by outsourcing its intelligence. Now, the top ten highest

1057
00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:03,480
Speaker 14: investors in AI are the same one who have been

1058
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 14: leading in manufacturing of all times, and they're not looking

1059
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:11,200
Speaker 14: at efficiency effectiveness. They want to glean all the benefits

1060
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:15,160
Speaker 14: around AI, around creating new industries. That's why we're talking

1061
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:19,320
Speaker 14: today and we cover this extensively in the book AI Factories.

1062
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:22,400
Speaker 14: We need to think of the factories of the future,

1063
00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:26,280
Speaker 14: employment of the future, how will our national security work,

1064
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:29,400
Speaker 14: How we need to be autonomous, in other words, be

1065
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:33,520
Speaker 14: less dependent. Think about if we have AI running our

1066
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:38,240
Speaker 14: hospitals national security tomorrow, someone can be angry about it.

1067
00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:40,640
Speaker 14: And if we're depending on other nations, they could say,

1068
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:42,280
Speaker 14: if we don't do this, we're going to have to

1069
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:46,400
Speaker 14: switch off these nations. And beyond that, it data represents

1070
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:50,360
Speaker 14: our culture, and if we can control how we process it,

1071
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:54,040
Speaker 14: we also protect our policies, our culture, things we believe in,

1072
00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:57,960
Speaker 14: and our plans of the future. And that shift from

1073
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:01,960
Speaker 14: just being consumers is is critical. We need to be producers.

1074
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:04,600
Speaker 14: We need to offer something to the global world, and

1075
00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:08,560
Speaker 14: that will come from an opportunity to manufacture intelligence with AI.

1076
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:12,800
Speaker 3: So I mean, there's so many questions that come out

1077
00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:14,680
Speaker 3: of US. I mean, one of them is that we

1078
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:17,000
Speaker 3: saw the US supposedly in the lead. That's what it

1079
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:20,200
Speaker 3: looked like. And I say this when we sort of internationally, really,

1080
00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:24,560
Speaker 3: if we're honest, probably consume Western media. Really Suddenly China

1081
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 3: came out of nowhere with deep think that rivalry does

1082
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:31,920
Speaker 3: that give us a gap maybe to have a bit

1083
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:34,400
Speaker 3: of control over our own destiny, the fact that there

1084
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:37,919
Speaker 3: are two players not one, particularly that Europe might also

1085
00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:40,720
Speaker 3: become a player, and then that also maybe we can

1086
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:43,120
Speaker 3: create our own models in our and therefore take a

1087
00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:45,760
Speaker 3: bit more charge of our own destiny. One hundred percent.

1088
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 14: It gives us a big opportunity to redefine the AI

1089
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:56,520
Speaker 14: rest on identity, we suddainly cannot compete against America because

1090
00:59:56,600 --> 01:00:01,480
Speaker 14: they've got all the researchers, their reducing platforms through their

1091
01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:07,920
Speaker 14: higher education institutions. China is you know, leveraging open source

1092
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:10,880
Speaker 14: models that we've got the likes of Deepsick. We've got

1093
01:00:10,920 --> 01:00:14,640
Speaker 14: twenty three now which are being produced at a very

1094
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:18,240
Speaker 14: cheap price and being skilled. But for us, I think

1095
01:00:18,240 --> 01:00:24,160
Speaker 14: our identity lizing the opportunities we have, driving efficiency, being

1096
01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:27,919
Speaker 14: less dependent like you said, and making sure we save

1097
01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:32,360
Speaker 14: the economies would have used to actually import these solutions.

1098
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:38,440
Speaker 14: When we look at unique industries that have opportunities, for example,

1099
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:40,920
Speaker 14: the health sector, we can just drive efficiency in the

1100
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:45,640
Speaker 14: health sector, the education system, the energy sector, think about

1101
01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:51,440
Speaker 14: security and law enforcement. All of them have an opportunity

1102
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:55,120
Speaker 14: to to you know, to to redefine themselves using this technology,

1103
01:00:55,480 --> 01:00:59,680
Speaker 14: and we can just be a modern smart economy as

1104
01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:03,800
Speaker 14: oppon to competing against the likes of China, and that

1105
01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:05,960
Speaker 14: will actually help us realize our potential.

1106
01:01:06,800 --> 01:01:12,360
Speaker 3: In many cases, the idea of sovereignty applies to your economy,

1107
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:15,120
Speaker 3: but it applies to kind of people think of national defense,

1108
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:18,640
Speaker 3: So that makes it a government problem. In the United States,

1109
01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:21,400
Speaker 3: AI has really been driven by the private sector, and

1110
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:26,280
Speaker 3: there's been fascinating disputes between the private sector. I can't

1111
01:01:26,320 --> 01:01:28,400
Speaker 3: remember the name of the country, of the name of

1112
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:31,200
Speaker 3: the company and the Pentagon over what they can do.

1113
01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:35,760
Speaker 3: It's not palanter anthropic. Yes, that's it, thank you. And

1114
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:38,800
Speaker 3: so I'm really interested in that tension between the private

1115
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:41,680
Speaker 3: sector which is developing AI and what government wants to

1116
01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:44,600
Speaker 3: do with it. And in the South African sense or

1117
01:01:44,640 --> 01:01:46,919
Speaker 3: in the African sense, and you want to master your

1118
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:51,000
Speaker 3: sovereign AI. Whose responsibility is that now? I mean it's

1119
01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:53,360
Speaker 3: easy to say, well, government and the private sector has

1120
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:57,320
Speaker 3: work together, but you need to make them work together constructively.

1121
01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:06,280
Speaker 14: The traversy between America and Anthropic was a reality check

1122
01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:11,200
Speaker 14: of the impact and massive impact of AI and not

1123
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:16,920
Speaker 14: just look at like attitude like any other technology. Nations

1124
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:22,240
Speaker 14: that are powering AI are controlling the technology. That's why

1125
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:25,720
Speaker 14: America is defining what technology will be used for, how

1126
01:02:25,760 --> 01:02:29,760
Speaker 14: it will be used, and including taking control of startups

1127
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:33,760
Speaker 14: like Anthropic what they've done and reusing them using their laws.

1128
01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:39,280
Speaker 14: In China, the Chinese government is actually subsidizing startups. That's

1129
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:44,520
Speaker 14: why we have deepsy, we have we we we have

1130
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:50,200
Speaker 14: other startups like you know driving the likes of retail

1131
01:02:50,320 --> 01:02:55,680
Speaker 14: companies that China is supporting because China knows AI is

1132
01:02:55,720 --> 01:02:59,440
Speaker 14: going to run every every aspect of industrialization of the future.

1133
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:05,560
Speaker 14: Because of that, nations governments must take control of defining

1134
01:03:05,720 --> 01:03:11,240
Speaker 14: strategies and creating fair play policies to allow for how

1135
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:15,440
Speaker 14: AI will be applied across all industries. Remember Africa and

1136
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:18,720
Speaker 14: South Africa. We don't have big economies to make mistakes,

1137
01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:23,280
Speaker 14: So the areas we're going to prioritize will define how

1138
01:03:23,680 --> 01:03:27,080
Speaker 14: much we get buying and trust across different industries and

1139
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:31,760
Speaker 14: the Unfortunately they have to work together or else. Circumstances

1140
01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:35,360
Speaker 14: around AI will force different sectors to work together. For example,

1141
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:38,320
Speaker 14: in our COVID forced sexors to work together. I do

1142
01:03:38,360 --> 01:03:40,560
Speaker 14: think the impact of AI is at that level.

1143
01:03:41,080 --> 01:03:43,000
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for coming in. I really appreciate

1144
01:03:43,120 --> 01:03:46,280
Speaker 3: Doctor Mark Nzilla. Nascilla is the author of the book

1145
01:03:46,480 --> 01:03:50,520
Speaker 3: Mastering Sovereign Artificial Intelligence, Owning and Shaping the Future and

1146
01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:53,919
Speaker 3: the Age of AI. Is also Chief Data and Analytics

1147
01:03:53,920 --> 01:03:55,439
Speaker 3: Officer at FNB Risk.

1148
01:03:56,240 --> 01:03:59,040
Speaker 2: How Money, So How I make my money?

1149
01:03:59,240 --> 01:04:01,160
Speaker 3: Twenty five minutes now to eighth a time.

1150
01:04:01,280 --> 01:04:01,360
Speaker 8: So.

1151
01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:03,480
Speaker 3: I don't know if you have teenagers in your life,

1152
01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:06,560
Speaker 3: but if you do, you've probably shouted at some point

1153
01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:09,720
Speaker 3: get off that device, by which I mean some kind

1154
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:12,000
Speaker 3: of device on which they're playing games, so you can

1155
01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:13,640
Speaker 3: play them on your phone. You can spend a lot

1156
01:04:13,680 --> 01:04:15,680
Speaker 3: of money on a console like a PS five or

1157
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:18,520
Speaker 3: a Nintendo Switch or an Xbox. You can spend even

1158
01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:22,160
Speaker 3: more money and something actually called a gaming PC comes

1159
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:24,919
Speaker 3: with a keyboard. Now, your children might be very good

1160
01:04:24,960 --> 01:04:27,880
Speaker 3: at these things. I don't know if you think they

1161
01:04:27,880 --> 01:04:29,480
Speaker 3: could make the careers in it, but I wouldn't be

1162
01:04:29,520 --> 01:04:32,400
Speaker 3: surprised if they think they can. Somebody's been able to

1163
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:35,800
Speaker 3: make a career in this and in our gaming economy

1164
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:39,520
Speaker 3: is Raymond led Waber, currently the CEO of I think

1165
01:04:39,560 --> 01:04:42,240
Speaker 3: Gaming and Raymond a good evening to you when I

1166
01:04:42,720 --> 01:04:45,920
Speaker 3: last properly played a video game. This is what they

1167
01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:55,560
Speaker 3: sounded like, Mario Brothers, or so I'm told. I think

1168
01:04:55,600 --> 01:04:58,560
Speaker 3: my memory says there was probably a Commodore sixty four

1169
01:04:58,600 --> 01:05:01,640
Speaker 3: in there, Raymond ed wab good evening. You're involved in

1170
01:05:01,680 --> 01:05:03,800
Speaker 3: something a little more sophisticated than that.

1171
01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:07,760
Speaker 15: Good evening, Steven, thank you very much for having me.

1172
01:05:09,200 --> 01:05:12,080
Speaker 15: And yes, I am living my dream at the moment,

1173
01:05:12,680 --> 01:05:16,520
Speaker 15: building a career doing something that I've loved as a kid.

1174
01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:20,120
Speaker 15: And so it's a real privilege for me to be

1175
01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:24,560
Speaker 15: working in this wonderful video games industry and particularly trying

1176
01:05:24,720 --> 01:05:26,840
Speaker 15: very hard to work on building.

1177
01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:28,439
Speaker 6: The South African gaming ecosystem.

1178
01:05:29,280 --> 01:05:33,640
Speaker 3: I mean, I think a lot of us, certainly as parents,

1179
01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:37,840
Speaker 3: Raymond probably my age, but as parents, think of games

1180
01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:39,920
Speaker 3: as sort of entertainment. You see it in a very

1181
01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:42,880
Speaker 3: different way. And I suppose I can imagine also there's

1182
01:05:42,880 --> 01:05:46,800
Speaker 3: a kind of a snobbery maybe among a certain generation,

1183
01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:51,040
Speaker 3: my generation, that there's some movies we see as high art.

1184
01:05:51,240 --> 01:05:54,200
Speaker 3: We never think of a computer game as high art.

1185
01:05:54,560 --> 01:05:56,080
Speaker 3: And year two are we to judge that?

1186
01:05:57,760 --> 01:06:02,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, video games is an art form.

1187
01:06:02,680 --> 01:06:05,600
Speaker 15: It's a very you know, it's a digital art form,

1188
01:06:06,240 --> 01:06:09,640
Speaker 15: and there's different types of games, similar to your example

1189
01:06:10,320 --> 01:06:13,360
Speaker 15: in the film industry, right, there are very different types

1190
01:06:13,400 --> 01:06:17,120
Speaker 15: of films, and so one certainly can look at it

1191
01:06:17,520 --> 01:06:23,440
Speaker 15: from an entertainment perspective and obviously obtain entertainment value from

1192
01:06:23,720 --> 01:06:26,880
Speaker 15: a game. There's people who will look at a game

1193
01:06:27,040 --> 01:06:32,000
Speaker 15: and look at it from its artistic sort of like perspective,

1194
01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:36,000
Speaker 15: because you know, when I look at games, and just

1195
01:06:36,120 --> 01:06:41,120
Speaker 15: like many art forms, there's also soft power in there, right,

1196
01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:46,880
Speaker 15: there's culture, there's an ability to influence people in terms

1197
01:06:46,920 --> 01:06:51,440
Speaker 15: of storytelling, and so for me, yes, games are an

1198
01:06:51,560 --> 01:06:54,600
Speaker 15: entertainment form, but they also.

1199
01:06:55,040 --> 01:06:56,560
Speaker 6: A commercial enterprise.

1200
01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:00,760
Speaker 15: I mean, just to give you an example on which

1201
01:07:00,800 --> 01:07:05,680
Speaker 15: is global stats, right, three billion people around the world

1202
01:07:05,800 --> 01:07:08,680
Speaker 15: play video games, so that's almost half of the world's population.

1203
01:07:09,400 --> 01:07:12,200
Speaker 15: And if you look at the commercial value of revenues

1204
01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:17,240
Speaker 15: generated from this industry, it's north of two hundred billion dollars, So.

1205
01:07:17,280 --> 01:07:18,240
Speaker 6: Money is being made.

1206
01:07:18,600 --> 01:07:21,600
Speaker 15: And to contextualize that number, because I like the example

1207
01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:26,480
Speaker 15: of film, the size of the video games industry globally

1208
01:07:27,040 --> 01:07:31,000
Speaker 15: is bigger than the music industry and the music industry combined.

1209
01:07:31,920 --> 01:07:34,600
Speaker 15: So there's tons of opportunity in that space.

1210
01:07:34,960 --> 01:07:36,880
Speaker 3: I mean, if you think about how big the movie

1211
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:39,600
Speaker 3: and the movie industries are, and that it's bigger than

1212
01:07:39,640 --> 01:07:43,200
Speaker 3: both of those, I mean, it really is incredible. How

1213
01:07:44,240 --> 01:07:47,320
Speaker 3: did you get into it? Were your parents nicer than

1214
01:07:47,320 --> 01:07:48,360
Speaker 3: my children's?

1215
01:07:50,280 --> 01:07:53,880
Speaker 15: So, you know, I got into games by accident, to

1216
01:07:53,880 --> 01:07:58,200
Speaker 15: be honest, I always loved playing games growing up. But

1217
01:07:58,320 --> 01:08:03,120
Speaker 15: then I pursued a career that my parents obviously would

1218
01:08:03,120 --> 01:08:04,160
Speaker 15: have channeled me into.

1219
01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:05,160
Speaker 6: Each his accountancy.

1220
01:08:05,200 --> 01:08:08,480
Speaker 15: I'm a chatted accountant by training, and I did my

1221
01:08:08,880 --> 01:08:13,960
Speaker 15: you know, articles at PwC, then went into banking, and

1222
01:08:14,080 --> 01:08:17,759
Speaker 15: I was always fiddling though, you know, like there's every

1223
01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:21,439
Speaker 15: entrepreneur knows that there's certain things that you know, you

1224
01:08:21,479 --> 01:08:24,880
Speaker 15: could be in a corporate but you're doing all these

1225
01:08:24,960 --> 01:08:27,840
Speaker 15: side hustles. And so one of the things that I

1226
01:08:28,320 --> 01:08:31,000
Speaker 15: started in twenty fifteen was a sports organization.

1227
01:08:31,200 --> 01:08:32,320
Speaker 6: I really love sports.

1228
01:08:32,360 --> 01:08:35,880
Speaker 15: I love football, So I started a nonprofit called Duskin

1229
01:08:35,960 --> 01:08:39,920
Speaker 15: Nineine whilst I was employed at UPSA and during the pandemic,

1230
01:08:40,760 --> 01:08:44,640
Speaker 15: we couldn't run our traditional sports programs, and so we pivoted,

1231
01:08:44,760 --> 01:08:48,400
Speaker 15: and we pivoted into esports, and now esports is competitive

1232
01:08:48,520 --> 01:08:53,519
Speaker 15: video gaming. And during that time I realized that you know,

1233
01:08:53,720 --> 01:08:59,280
Speaker 15: there's a huge opportunity but a big problem. So less

1234
01:08:59,320 --> 01:09:02,479
Speaker 15: than one person of video game developers on the planet

1235
01:09:02,520 --> 01:09:07,759
Speaker 15: are Africans, yet we make up together with the Middle East,

1236
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:11,160
Speaker 15: the second biggest population of gamers around the world. So

1237
01:09:11,200 --> 01:09:16,240
Speaker 15: that tells me we are consumers in this space, but

1238
01:09:16,280 --> 01:09:20,200
Speaker 15: we do not produce video games. So I went into

1239
01:09:20,280 --> 01:09:25,480
Speaker 15: games naively five years ago with the intention of building

1240
01:09:25,680 --> 01:09:29,200
Speaker 15: African inspired video games because I saw a gap in

1241
01:09:29,240 --> 01:09:32,080
Speaker 15: the market, which is the ability for us to tell

1242
01:09:32,120 --> 01:09:37,280
Speaker 15: our own stories and have our kids play video games

1243
01:09:37,320 --> 01:09:40,799
Speaker 15: made locally and create a platform even for our kids

1244
01:09:41,280 --> 01:09:44,599
Speaker 15: and young people around the continent, because we are a

1245
01:09:44,640 --> 01:09:49,479
Speaker 15: youthful population as Africa, and so we need to channel

1246
01:09:49,520 --> 01:09:53,479
Speaker 15: this energy. And young people love games, they play them,

1247
01:09:53,520 --> 01:09:56,280
Speaker 15: but they don't really realize and know that they can

1248
01:09:56,320 --> 01:10:00,000
Speaker 15: also make them and run enterprises and the space.

1249
01:10:01,080 --> 01:10:04,680
Speaker 3: So there's There are all sorts of things in the IT

1250
01:10:04,960 --> 01:10:08,040
Speaker 3: industry when people talk about ecosystems, and the most famous

1251
01:10:08,040 --> 01:10:11,559
Speaker 3: one is sort of Silicon Valley, San Francisco, where so

1252
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:15,720
Speaker 3: much of the sort of personal computing revolution happened. Is

1253
01:10:15,760 --> 01:10:18,400
Speaker 3: our problem that we don't have an ecosystem like that

1254
01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:22,479
Speaker 3: in Southern Africa where a place where people are sort

1255
01:10:22,479 --> 01:10:26,240
Speaker 3: of together and interested in designing games that would create

1256
01:10:26,320 --> 01:10:29,400
Speaker 3: that kind of ecosystem.

1257
01:10:29,560 --> 01:10:32,679
Speaker 15: Yes, that's definitely one part of the problem. There's multiple

1258
01:10:33,320 --> 01:10:38,320
Speaker 15: facets to this challenge of the ecosystem. So certainly there

1259
01:10:38,320 --> 01:10:42,800
Speaker 15: aren't clusters in Southern Africa where you could you know,

1260
01:10:42,960 --> 01:10:46,679
Speaker 15: walk into multiple spaces. There are computers, there are people

1261
01:10:46,720 --> 01:10:48,840
Speaker 15: who are like you, who think like you, who want

1262
01:10:48,840 --> 01:10:52,400
Speaker 15: to make you know, games, whether it's as an art form, as.

1263
01:10:52,280 --> 01:10:54,240
Speaker 6: An entertainment form.

1264
01:10:54,800 --> 01:10:59,320
Speaker 15: And then there's also the perception of parents that you know,

1265
01:10:59,439 --> 01:11:04,240
Speaker 15: parents games as this big distraction and they don't understand that,

1266
01:11:04,600 --> 01:11:06,840
Speaker 15: you know, there is again a career that.

1267
01:11:06,760 --> 01:11:09,000
Speaker 6: Can be built in the space.

1268
01:11:09,040 --> 01:11:11,680
Speaker 15: There's money to be made in the space, whether you're

1269
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:15,400
Speaker 15: making the game yourself or you are streaming. There are

1270
01:11:15,479 --> 01:11:19,280
Speaker 15: so many avenues right like there are esports players. There's

1271
01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:22,559
Speaker 15: people who play video games and you know, the prize

1272
01:11:22,760 --> 01:11:25,680
Speaker 15: pool is in the millions of dollars and they're just

1273
01:11:25,760 --> 01:11:30,720
Speaker 15: playing a game. So there are massive opportunities, but it's

1274
01:11:30,720 --> 01:11:32,440
Speaker 15: an industry that's misunderstood.

1275
01:11:33,520 --> 01:11:34,360
Speaker 6: In South Africa.

1276
01:11:34,720 --> 01:11:40,320
Speaker 15: We are at an infancy stage in our ecosystem. There's

1277
01:11:40,360 --> 01:11:43,160
Speaker 15: just a handful of studios locally that are building video

1278
01:11:43,240 --> 01:11:47,720
Speaker 15: games and making money and sustaining themselves with sales of

1279
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:51,719
Speaker 15: video games. And then there are you know, a lot

1280
01:11:51,840 --> 01:11:55,360
Speaker 15: more of studios that are doing it as a hobby,

1281
01:11:55,720 --> 01:11:59,120
Speaker 15: as a side hustle, but then they're doing something else

1282
01:11:59,320 --> 01:12:03,840
Speaker 15: to to sustain their lives, you know. So, yes, I

1283
01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:07,800
Speaker 15: think having a cluster is important, and that's something that

1284
01:12:07,840 --> 01:12:11,519
Speaker 15: we're working towards. So, you know it thin gaming as

1285
01:12:11,560 --> 01:12:12,280
Speaker 15: a business.

1286
01:12:12,680 --> 01:12:13,840
Speaker 6: We make video.

1287
01:12:13,560 --> 01:12:17,840
Speaker 15: Games, but then we also do this ecosystem development work

1288
01:12:17,880 --> 01:12:20,880
Speaker 15: that we have seen if we don't do it, our

1289
01:12:20,920 --> 01:12:24,880
Speaker 15: own company might not survive, right, So we've met with

1290
01:12:24,960 --> 01:12:28,840
Speaker 15: the Department of Communications and Digital Technologies and we've sold

1291
01:12:28,920 --> 01:12:33,920
Speaker 15: them the importance of video games as a job creation force,

1292
01:12:35,200 --> 01:12:37,800
Speaker 15: as a way for us to generate revenues and have

1293
01:12:37,880 --> 01:12:42,000
Speaker 15: those revenues stay in the land, in the nation. So

1294
01:12:42,240 --> 01:12:46,240
Speaker 15: there's an advisory committee that we've set up with the

1295
01:12:46,280 --> 01:12:51,080
Speaker 15: Department of Communications and Dogital Technologies to look into this

1296
01:12:51,240 --> 01:12:53,719
Speaker 15: very problem that you're talking about, how do we build

1297
01:12:54,240 --> 01:12:57,920
Speaker 15: a thriving ecosystem for video game producers.

1298
01:12:58,120 --> 01:13:02,000
Speaker 3: Okay, so when you have and even in the music industry,

1299
01:13:02,040 --> 01:13:05,400
Speaker 3: I kind of understand the different roles, So you'll have actors,

1300
01:13:05,479 --> 01:13:08,040
Speaker 3: you'll have a scriptwriter, you'll have a director, you'll have

1301
01:13:08,120 --> 01:13:12,080
Speaker 3: makeup artists, you'll have the crew, all of that. In

1302
01:13:12,120 --> 01:13:14,840
Speaker 3: a video game, what do you need? And I presume

1303
01:13:15,160 --> 01:13:17,840
Speaker 3: that some of the bigger players, like Electronic Arts or

1304
01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:22,639
Speaker 3: whatever will have all sorts of different roles that people play.

1305
01:13:22,880 --> 01:13:25,439
Speaker 3: What would be some of those roles that you know,

1306
01:13:25,640 --> 01:13:28,920
Speaker 3: younger people or anyone could start to consider what would

1307
01:13:28,960 --> 01:13:31,479
Speaker 3: be the roles that people play that go into one

1308
01:13:31,479 --> 01:13:34,360
Speaker 3: of these big sort of production video games.

1309
01:13:35,840 --> 01:13:38,719
Speaker 15: So a video game in its essence is a piece

1310
01:13:38,760 --> 01:13:43,840
Speaker 15: of software, so you would definitely need programmers. So there's

1311
01:13:44,040 --> 01:13:48,639
Speaker 15: people who write a code to make a character jump

1312
01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:52,840
Speaker 15: or make a character run. So you certainly need programmers

1313
01:13:52,880 --> 01:13:55,800
Speaker 15: to deal with the it aspects of a video game.

1314
01:13:56,400 --> 01:13:59,000
Speaker 15: But a video game is also art, so there are

1315
01:13:59,240 --> 01:14:02,240
Speaker 15: characters that to be drawn. That character needs to be

1316
01:14:02,280 --> 01:14:06,080
Speaker 15: animated so that it moves, so you've got animators. A

1317
01:14:06,200 --> 01:14:08,920
Speaker 15: video game is a story, so there could be a

1318
01:14:09,040 --> 01:14:12,680
Speaker 15: narrative that is being followed throughout this video game, so

1319
01:14:12,720 --> 01:14:15,480
Speaker 15: you need writers and storytellers.

1320
01:14:15,080 --> 01:14:15,799
Speaker 6: And the sound.

1321
01:14:15,840 --> 01:14:19,280
Speaker 15: I mean, you started your show with an audio clip,

1322
01:14:19,720 --> 01:14:21,560
Speaker 15: so there's musicians, the sound.

1323
01:14:21,320 --> 01:14:24,960
Speaker 6: Designers, and then there are game designers.

1324
01:14:25,000 --> 01:14:27,760
Speaker 15: So someone who thinks about how to put all of

1325
01:14:27,800 --> 01:14:30,759
Speaker 15: these things into play, how do you make it fun?

1326
01:14:30,880 --> 01:14:34,080
Speaker 15: How do you make people come back? What prices are

1327
01:14:34,080 --> 01:14:36,840
Speaker 15: you giving at what point? What challenges, what puzzles are

1328
01:14:36,840 --> 01:14:40,680
Speaker 15: you putting in? So there's a meriad of options and

1329
01:14:40,800 --> 01:14:45,040
Speaker 15: careers that young people could consider in the space. And

1330
01:14:45,040 --> 01:14:48,439
Speaker 15: then of course then there's people like myself who are

1331
01:14:48,560 --> 01:14:52,880
Speaker 15: in finance and we look up how do we raise

1332
01:14:52,960 --> 01:14:56,280
Speaker 15: capital for the work that we do, because just like

1333
01:14:56,320 --> 01:15:00,800
Speaker 15: in movies, building games is quite a capital intense industry.

1334
01:15:01,600 --> 01:15:04,080
Speaker 15: The type of hardware that you need to build video

1335
01:15:04,120 --> 01:15:07,479
Speaker 15: games is not cheap, and the time that it takes

1336
01:15:07,520 --> 01:15:11,520
Speaker 15: it could take a long time to have a game developed.

1337
01:15:12,120 --> 01:15:14,520
Speaker 15: And then you've got lawyers that need to do the paperwork,

1338
01:15:14,560 --> 01:15:17,400
Speaker 15: and then there's a marketing team that needs to ensure that,

1339
01:15:17,960 --> 01:15:20,880
Speaker 15: you know, everybody knows about the game. So it's it's

1340
01:15:20,920 --> 01:15:25,920
Speaker 15: a full scale industry with tons of opportunities.

1341
01:15:26,479 --> 01:15:29,599
Speaker 3: So I mean, is there scope for someone in South

1342
01:15:29,600 --> 01:15:32,040
Speaker 3: Africa to do one of those jobs full time in

1343
01:15:32,080 --> 01:15:36,120
Speaker 3: the gaming industry? Now I've I mean, I've never bumped

1344
01:15:36,120 --> 01:15:39,080
Speaker 3: into someone who says apart from you, I suppose who

1345
01:15:39,120 --> 01:15:41,720
Speaker 3: says I work in South Africa, I work in the

1346
01:15:41,720 --> 01:15:43,599
Speaker 3: gaming industry, or someone I know does.

1347
01:15:45,760 --> 01:15:46,000
Speaker 8: Yeah.

1348
01:15:46,080 --> 01:15:48,960
Speaker 15: So I mean, like I said, the industry is still

1349
01:15:48,960 --> 01:15:52,400
Speaker 15: in its infancy. So there's a handful of studios that

1350
01:15:52,439 --> 01:15:56,080
Speaker 15: are doing a full time the talent that we have.

1351
01:15:56,200 --> 01:15:59,280
Speaker 15: I mean, you know, there's a couple of universities that

1352
01:15:59,520 --> 01:16:04,479
Speaker 15: are offering game development degrees and they are churning out

1353
01:16:04,640 --> 01:16:08,960
Speaker 15: really talented young people. And what we're seeing is that

1354
01:16:09,400 --> 01:16:13,720
Speaker 15: some of those people then find work overseas. I mean,

1355
01:16:13,840 --> 01:16:18,439
Speaker 15: one of our amazing, amazing game designers just resigned from

1356
01:16:18,479 --> 01:16:22,240
Speaker 15: our studio last month to work for a firm based

1357
01:16:22,240 --> 01:16:26,599
Speaker 15: in Saudi Arabia, but he's working remotely. And so we've

1358
01:16:26,640 --> 01:16:30,840
Speaker 15: seen a lot of demand for talent from South Africa

1359
01:16:31,200 --> 01:16:35,320
Speaker 15: abroad in the video gaming space. And as we build

1360
01:16:35,360 --> 01:16:37,840
Speaker 15: our industry, I can see in the next five ten

1361
01:16:37,960 --> 01:16:41,160
Speaker 15: years lots more opportunities for young people to do this

1362
01:16:41,240 --> 01:16:42,000
Speaker 15: thing full time.

1363
01:16:43,600 --> 01:16:46,920
Speaker 3: And it requires quite a few things. But one of

1364
01:16:46,920 --> 01:16:49,240
Speaker 3: the things that just can't get around is your opening

1365
01:16:49,280 --> 01:16:51,720
Speaker 3: comment about sort of Africa and the Middle East is consumers.

1366
01:16:52,320 --> 01:16:54,880
Speaker 3: If the market is so big, you would think that

1367
01:16:55,080 --> 01:16:57,240
Speaker 3: the games would be tailor made to our market, and

1368
01:16:57,240 --> 01:16:58,760
Speaker 3: now I don't get the sense that they are.

1369
01:17:00,240 --> 01:17:00,479
Speaker 6: No.

1370
01:17:00,560 --> 01:17:04,240
Speaker 15: I mean, yeah, that's a big challenge, and that's where

1371
01:17:04,280 --> 01:17:07,120
Speaker 15: we see the gap, right, And I don't I wouldn't

1372
01:17:07,160 --> 01:17:13,479
Speaker 15: blame any studio for not even considering our narratives, our stories,

1373
01:17:13,520 --> 01:17:17,800
Speaker 15: our cultures in their games, because if you don't have representation,

1374
01:17:17,920 --> 01:17:20,640
Speaker 15: what you're talking to is an issue of representation.

1375
01:17:21,840 --> 01:17:23,240
Speaker 6: You can't blame someone for.

1376
01:17:23,280 --> 01:17:28,040
Speaker 15: Not thinking about your geography because they might not feel

1377
01:17:28,040 --> 01:17:30,120
Speaker 15: a connection to it. They might not know it, they

1378
01:17:30,160 --> 01:17:32,880
Speaker 15: might not understand it. If they do it, they might

1379
01:17:32,920 --> 01:17:36,439
Speaker 15: not also do it you know, well, they might not

1380
01:17:38,280 --> 01:17:40,160
Speaker 15: do it in the way that it's supposed to be done.

1381
01:17:40,240 --> 01:17:43,000
Speaker 15: So that's part of the problem. That's why we need

1382
01:17:43,080 --> 01:17:45,400
Speaker 15: to ensure that, you know, when a young person is

1383
01:17:45,400 --> 01:17:47,559
Speaker 15: telling their parents, hey, I want to be a game developer,

1384
01:17:47,600 --> 01:17:52,360
Speaker 15: we don't discourage them because we need that talentier so

1385
01:17:52,400 --> 01:17:56,040
Speaker 15: that we can tell our own stories. So, yes, that's

1386
01:17:56,080 --> 01:17:58,000
Speaker 15: a big challenge.

1387
01:17:58,560 --> 01:18:00,760
Speaker 6: And we've seen a studio also.

1388
01:18:00,479 --> 01:18:03,000
Speaker 15: I mean, like a good friend of mine has developed

1389
01:18:03,000 --> 01:18:06,680
Speaker 15: a really fantastic game called Relooted. Ben Mayer is from

1390
01:18:06,800 --> 01:18:11,280
Speaker 15: Yamacob and it's a beautiful game. It's about reclaiming African

1391
01:18:11,360 --> 01:18:16,439
Speaker 15: artifacts from Western museums. It's an important video game, so

1392
01:18:16,479 --> 01:18:20,080
Speaker 15: I would encourage everybody to check it out. But you know,

1393
01:18:20,200 --> 01:18:23,720
Speaker 15: because it's different, it's unique, it's telling our story. There

1394
01:18:23,800 --> 01:18:26,600
Speaker 15: is a certain demographic around the world that is not

1395
01:18:26,720 --> 01:18:29,759
Speaker 15: pleased with that game. So we also face these challenges

1396
01:18:29,800 --> 01:18:31,920
Speaker 15: when you're trying to build something of your own that

1397
01:18:32,000 --> 01:18:35,080
Speaker 15: comes from from the continent of Africa and you're putting

1398
01:18:35,080 --> 01:18:37,920
Speaker 15: it in the global market. That tends to sometimes be

1399
01:18:38,040 --> 01:18:41,080
Speaker 15: that resistance because people don't understand it. I mean, they're

1400
01:18:41,080 --> 01:18:43,800
Speaker 15: seeing black characters in the game, and for them it's

1401
01:18:43,800 --> 01:18:47,120
Speaker 15: an issue which we don't really get and understand why

1402
01:18:47,160 --> 01:18:47,839
Speaker 15: that is happening.

1403
01:18:48,520 --> 01:18:50,880
Speaker 3: Raymond d Robers the heer of I think gaming is

1404
01:18:50,920 --> 01:18:52,960
Speaker 3: with us for another ten minutes on hoow I Make

1405
01:18:53,000 --> 01:18:55,599
Speaker 3: My Money? How you do it in the Gaming Business?

1406
01:18:55,600 --> 01:18:57,160
Speaker 3: Ten minutes nowadays.

1407
01:18:58,760 --> 01:19:01,280
Speaker 11: The Money Show Stephen Fruit is brought to you by

1408
01:19:01,360 --> 01:19:05,080
Speaker 11: abs and Sponsorships the Cloud, sponsor of the Absurd gape Epic,

1409
01:19:05,439 --> 01:19:08,880
Speaker 11: celebrating twenty years of taking it to the trails as

1410
01:19:09,160 --> 01:19:10,040
Speaker 11: raised sp.

1411
01:19:12,000 --> 01:19:14,840
Speaker 2: The Money Show How I Make My Money?

1412
01:19:15,040 --> 01:19:17,720
Speaker 3: Eight minutes to eighth the time we're talking about a

1413
01:19:17,760 --> 01:19:19,920
Speaker 3: career in the gaming industry. Raymond ed Wabe is the

1414
01:19:19,960 --> 01:19:23,439
Speaker 3: CEO of I Think Game and Are Gaming. Raymond, I

1415
01:19:23,439 --> 01:19:25,040
Speaker 3: do have to ask a question and I sort of

1416
01:19:25,080 --> 01:19:27,439
Speaker 3: asked this with my parent hat on that I think

1417
01:19:27,479 --> 01:19:30,080
Speaker 3: some people are kind of anti gaming because they see

1418
01:19:30,080 --> 01:19:32,800
Speaker 3: it almost as addictive. And if you think of Fortnite, right,

1419
01:19:33,439 --> 01:19:35,400
Speaker 3: for a lot of people, if you think of gaming,

1420
01:19:35,439 --> 01:19:38,080
Speaker 3: you think of Fortnite. You try and get a child

1421
01:19:38,160 --> 01:19:41,559
Speaker 3: of Fortnite, so it's being played live with lots of

1422
01:19:41,560 --> 01:19:45,240
Speaker 3: other players, so you can't pause it. So for the teenager,

1423
01:19:45,840 --> 01:19:49,360
Speaker 3: they're like that, I can't pause this game, you can't

1424
01:19:49,360 --> 01:19:53,040
Speaker 3: go back, And all the parent sees is the sort

1425
01:19:53,080 --> 01:19:56,760
Speaker 3: of blood and guts. And I sometimes wonder if the

1426
01:19:56,760 --> 01:19:59,559
Speaker 3: gaming industry, I mean, that's before I even think of

1427
01:19:59,640 --> 01:20:02,840
Speaker 3: grant the auto and all the other stuff. And I

1428
01:20:02,920 --> 01:20:06,400
Speaker 3: appreciate that the you know, the movie world has that too,

1429
01:20:07,160 --> 01:20:09,439
Speaker 3: but is that something that maybe the gaming industry could

1430
01:20:09,479 --> 01:20:10,320
Speaker 3: think a little bit about.

1431
01:20:12,640 --> 01:20:13,679
Speaker 6: That's a very good question.

1432
01:20:13,720 --> 01:20:17,320
Speaker 15: And I mean I think that there are standards and

1433
01:20:17,400 --> 01:20:22,759
Speaker 15: regulations that ensure that, you know, video games have age

1434
01:20:22,840 --> 01:20:31,799
Speaker 15: appropriate narratives, images, you know, ideas, because that is definitely

1435
01:20:31,800 --> 01:20:35,479
Speaker 15: a valid concern. But I see, I think it's it's

1436
01:20:35,520 --> 01:20:39,320
Speaker 15: it's a very difficult thing to control in someone's home

1437
01:20:39,960 --> 01:20:44,000
Speaker 15: because you know, as an enterprise making a particular product,

1438
01:20:45,360 --> 01:20:48,320
Speaker 15: you would be thinking about your your particular idea and

1439
01:20:48,400 --> 01:20:53,200
Speaker 15: bringing it to life in a certain way, and ultimately,

1440
01:20:53,280 --> 01:20:56,320
Speaker 15: once it gets into the market, it would get into

1441
01:20:56,360 --> 01:21:01,040
Speaker 15: the market with appropriate age restrictions and you would have

1442
01:21:01,160 --> 01:21:04,479
Speaker 15: agencies that would ensure that that is indeed the case,

1443
01:21:06,040 --> 01:21:07,280
Speaker 15: and once you know it's.

1444
01:21:07,160 --> 01:21:08,439
Speaker 6: Being played in the home.

1445
01:21:08,960 --> 01:21:14,680
Speaker 15: Certainly, certain devices, your PlayStations, your Xbox have parental controls

1446
01:21:15,160 --> 01:21:18,439
Speaker 15: that can ensure that you limit the time that your

1447
01:21:18,520 --> 01:21:23,280
Speaker 15: child is on the device, you know, and so ultimately

1448
01:21:23,600 --> 01:21:26,080
Speaker 15: the parent is responsible for the child.

1449
01:21:26,640 --> 01:21:29,800
Speaker 6: But you are right in saying that, you know, there

1450
01:21:29,920 --> 01:21:30,320
Speaker 6: is that.

1451
01:21:31,960 --> 01:21:36,639
Speaker 15: Perception of what a game could be doing for young children.

1452
01:21:37,560 --> 01:21:42,639
Speaker 15: But again, just to contextualize everything, right, like twenty percent

1453
01:21:42,800 --> 01:21:50,000
Speaker 15: of game players are minors, so it is an important demographic.

1454
01:21:51,240 --> 01:21:55,080
Speaker 15: There are you know, tools and controls to ensure that

1455
01:21:55,280 --> 01:21:57,639
Speaker 15: you can manage the amount of time your child plays.

1456
01:21:58,000 --> 01:22:01,240
Speaker 6: But similar YouTube, it would have the same problem.

1457
01:22:01,400 --> 01:22:04,920
Speaker 15: Sure, right in film, like you said, would have the

1458
01:22:04,960 --> 01:22:08,639
Speaker 15: same problem TikTok would have the same problem. So it's

1459
01:22:08,760 --> 01:22:12,880
Speaker 15: tough to manage these platforms. But yeah, at the end

1460
01:22:12,880 --> 01:22:14,959
Speaker 15: of the day, the parent has to do the parenting.

1461
01:22:15,720 --> 01:22:18,200
Speaker 3: Such an interesting stat when you said that only twenty

1462
01:22:18,240 --> 01:22:21,799
Speaker 3: percent of the people who play on these are minus

1463
01:22:21,800 --> 01:22:23,840
Speaker 3: so under the age of eighteen. I presume, and I

1464
01:22:23,880 --> 01:22:26,639
Speaker 3: think automatically, there's an assumption that most people who play

1465
01:22:26,680 --> 01:22:28,840
Speaker 3: are young, but we know that's not true. And in fact,

1466
01:22:29,160 --> 01:22:31,240
Speaker 3: I know at least one person who's a bit older

1467
01:22:31,280 --> 01:22:33,599
Speaker 3: than me who will spend a long time on a game.

1468
01:22:34,960 --> 01:22:39,960
Speaker 3: So I have a different question, Raymond, why is it?

1469
01:22:40,120 --> 01:22:44,400
Speaker 3: I mean, I've never really found playing these games interesting.

1470
01:22:44,439 --> 01:22:46,760
Speaker 3: I can see that there art in many cases. I

1471
01:22:46,800 --> 01:22:48,920
Speaker 3: can see they're clever. I can see that they're intellectual.

1472
01:22:49,000 --> 01:22:51,439
Speaker 3: I can see that a lot of work by very

1473
01:22:51,479 --> 01:22:53,920
Speaker 3: clever people has gone to them. I can appreciate the product,

1474
01:22:54,400 --> 01:22:56,439
Speaker 3: but frankly, I'd rather read a book. And I don't

1475
01:22:56,479 --> 01:22:59,439
Speaker 3: say that to be insulting. I'm asking a different question,

1476
01:22:59,479 --> 01:23:02,400
Speaker 3: which is why do some people like games and some

1477
01:23:02,439 --> 01:23:05,559
Speaker 3: people don't. I find that fascinating because I've come across

1478
01:23:05,600 --> 01:23:08,000
Speaker 3: some people who really love them and some people who

1479
01:23:08,120 --> 01:23:10,400
Speaker 3: just can't stand them and it doesn't matter what the

1480
01:23:10,479 --> 01:23:12,720
Speaker 3: game is. You know, it could be Tetris, it could

1481
01:23:12,720 --> 01:23:14,559
Speaker 3: be Fortnite, but they still have that view.

1482
01:23:16,320 --> 01:23:20,320
Speaker 15: Yeah, I mean certainly, you know, the market has different

1483
01:23:20,360 --> 01:23:23,840
Speaker 15: types of personas that are interested in the products that

1484
01:23:23,960 --> 01:23:28,600
Speaker 15: we develop. You definitely have people, I mean, like myself.

1485
01:23:29,000 --> 01:23:31,800
Speaker 15: I'm a golfer, for example, and I'm hooked on this

1486
01:23:31,920 --> 01:23:36,160
Speaker 15: golfing game. I just can't put it down. I love soccer,

1487
01:23:36,200 --> 01:23:40,719
Speaker 15: I play you know, FIFA a lot. So there's certainly

1488
01:23:41,560 --> 01:23:44,760
Speaker 15: different types of games that appeal to your personality and

1489
01:23:44,800 --> 01:23:49,040
Speaker 15: the things that you like. So there's that connection on

1490
01:23:49,080 --> 01:23:52,240
Speaker 15: that on that front, and certainly you would find people

1491
01:23:52,240 --> 01:23:56,400
Speaker 15: who like indie games, so games that are very artistic

1492
01:23:58,040 --> 01:24:00,760
Speaker 15: that are not too mainstream, and they will play those

1493
01:24:00,800 --> 01:24:04,400
Speaker 15: games for days. And yes, absolutely, I mean then there's

1494
01:24:04,400 --> 01:24:09,120
Speaker 15: a there's a customer or you know, someone like you

1495
01:24:09,200 --> 01:24:12,600
Speaker 15: who says, well, I'd rather read a book or you know,

1496
01:24:12,760 --> 01:24:16,599
Speaker 15: rather watch a movie. And that's really our competition. That's

1497
01:24:16,640 --> 01:24:20,040
Speaker 15: what we are competing with. We competing for your attention, right.

1498
01:24:20,200 --> 01:24:23,640
Speaker 15: We work in the attention economy, and so if we

1499
01:24:23,680 --> 01:24:26,360
Speaker 15: can grab your attention and keep you in our game,

1500
01:24:26,800 --> 01:24:29,960
Speaker 15: then we would have designed a really fantastic game. If

1501
01:24:29,960 --> 01:24:32,320
Speaker 15: we can't, that's, you know, we go back to the

1502
01:24:32,400 --> 01:24:36,040
Speaker 15: drawing board. But yeah, that's that's We compete with books

1503
01:24:36,040 --> 01:24:37,639
Speaker 15: and music and you know.

1504
01:24:38,640 --> 01:24:42,519
Speaker 3: TikTok, we've got We've got just a minute left. You

1505
01:24:42,800 --> 01:24:46,240
Speaker 3: are very optimistic still about growth of the gaming industry

1506
01:24:46,320 --> 01:24:49,759
Speaker 3: here in South Africa. So are you optimistic that people

1507
01:24:49,840 --> 01:24:52,479
Speaker 3: will in a few years we'll see I will go

1508
01:24:52,600 --> 01:24:54,320
Speaker 3: to a Brian bump it to people who say, oh

1509
01:24:54,320 --> 01:24:56,760
Speaker 3: I work in the gaming industry in South Africa for

1510
01:24:57,280 --> 01:25:01,679
Speaker 3: South Africans producing Southern African content, one hundred percent.

1511
01:25:01,760 --> 01:25:07,759
Speaker 15: I don't see the growth of the industry really slowing down.

1512
01:25:07,960 --> 01:25:14,879
Speaker 15: I see more people playing more games. And I think

1513
01:25:15,120 --> 01:25:19,080
Speaker 15: if we have the opportunity as Africans to also contribute

1514
01:25:19,240 --> 01:25:23,879
Speaker 15: to these catalogs by building games that represent us, games

1515
01:25:23,880 --> 01:25:28,040
Speaker 15: that are infused with our own stories, our own culture,

1516
01:25:28,400 --> 01:25:31,639
Speaker 15: then definitely we will see even growth on the African continent.

1517
01:25:32,439 --> 01:25:34,120
Speaker 15: And so yes, in a couple of years you'll be

1518
01:25:34,120 --> 01:25:38,240
Speaker 15: at a Brye and you'll be talking to multi billionaires

1519
01:25:38,720 --> 01:25:41,400
Speaker 15: that are making money from video games.

1520
01:25:41,479 --> 01:25:44,680
Speaker 3: Well, now you're selling it, Raymond Ledwab, thanks very much,

1521
01:25:44,760 --> 01:25:48,120
Speaker 3: really appreciate the time the CEO of I think Gaming

1522
01:25:48,920 --> 01:25:51,759
Speaker 3: are interested now in a nut your chart in that direction,

1523
01:25:52,080 --> 01:25:52,759
Speaker 3: someone better.

1524
01:25:55,320 --> 01:25:57,880
Speaker 11: The Money Show Stephen Croutes is brought to you by

1525
01:25:57,960 --> 01:26:03,080
Speaker 11: Absence Sponsorships, Croudsponts of the Absurd kpe Epic celebrating twenty

1526
01:26:03,200 --> 01:26:06,639
Speaker 11: years of taking it to the trails after the arrased FSP.

1527
01:26:07,760 --> 01:26:11,479
Speaker 3: Well, in the US mark it's still really uncertain, not

1528
01:26:11,479 --> 01:26:14,840
Speaker 3: sure about what's going to happen and how it's going

1529
01:26:14,880 --> 01:26:16,679
Speaker 3: to play out. In the Middle East, the Dow Jones

1530
01:26:16,720 --> 01:26:18,800
Speaker 3: is up point three to two percent, the Nasdaq is

1531
01:26:18,840 --> 01:26:21,160
Speaker 3: down half a percent. The S and P five hundred

1532
01:26:21,320 --> 01:26:24,519
Speaker 3: is down point one eight percent at the moment, and

1533
01:26:24,560 --> 01:26:27,360
Speaker 3: of course everyone just waiting to see. I suppose what

1534
01:26:27,400 --> 01:26:31,639
Speaker 3: Trump does next? Really and he ran lots of analysis

1535
01:26:31,680 --> 01:26:35,120
Speaker 3: suggesting that he ran really has a much stronger hand

1536
01:26:35,160 --> 01:26:38,120
Speaker 3: to play for various reasons than the US due to

1537
01:26:38,160 --> 01:26:41,200
Speaker 3: the strait of humus. We'll be back with you tomorrow.

1538
01:26:41,240 --> 01:26:42,439
Speaker 3: Good evening, it's eight o'clock