Speaker 1: Confirmation in the last twenty four hours or so from
Speaker 1: the Minister of Mineral, Mineral and Petroleum Resources Greta Mantasha
Speaker 1: that the new online nine mapping system, the cadastral system
Speaker 1: in the trade it's been delayed again, this time for
Speaker 1: another three months, will only go live I think in November,
Speaker 1: and that the current paper system very difficult or almost impossible
Speaker 1: for a mining company. Don't know what other companies are mining,
Speaker 1: what and where and where they can prospect. Peter Lyon
Speaker 1: is a mining expert and partner at Herbert Smith Freehills. Peter,
Speaker 1: a good evening to teach you. I do appreciate the time.
Speaker 1: I mean, yet another delay. There's been so many promises
Speaker 1: about this and even the Ministry seemed to have previously
Speaker 1: undertood how important a new online canstal system was.
Speaker 2: Good e being Stephen, It's really extraordinary. I mean this
Speaker 2: issue has been going on for years. In fact it started.
Speaker 2: The promise was made initially by Susan Tebungo when she
Speaker 2: was the Minister, that they introduced an electronic online supposedly
Speaker 2: an electronic online system called SAMRA, the South Africa Mideral
Speaker 2: Rights Application System, but never works. It was something that
Speaker 2: the Department had formulated itself without using any outside consultants.
Speaker 2: So the problem was that companies still had to basically
Speaker 2: use a paper based system that gives lies to all
Speaker 2: sorts of issues, particularly you know, fraud, corruption, dishonesty, the
Speaker 2: rest of it. And that's why most African mining jurisdictions
Speaker 2: in the Membia, for example, the North of Ice, Bobs,
Speaker 2: Fina and so on, have all got online cadastral systems
Speaker 2: and in fact I've had them for more than ten years.
Speaker 2: The World Bank helped countries roll them out. So it
Speaker 2: is extraordinary that South Africa in twenty twenty five is
Speaker 2: still does still not have a proper cadosterral system and
Speaker 2: as you say, it's been delayed again having been promised
Speaker 2: for the last fifteen years.
Speaker 1: Is there any I mean, is it that difficult to do?
Speaker 1: I mean, online mapping is a big industry that lots
Speaker 1: of people will help you do it. Other people around
Speaker 1: us know how to do it. It can't be that hard, No.
Speaker 2: It isn't. I mean. In fact, the Mineralist Council offered
Speaker 2: to donate a bespoke system to the Department of Mineral
Speaker 2: Resources about two years ago. And the department said, well,
Speaker 2: they couldn't accept it, but maybe they should live. Because
Speaker 2: that then went out to a tender. There was a
Speaker 2: problem with that book stated Information Technology Agency said that
Speaker 2: tender was irregular, so that held the thing up by
Speaker 2: another six or eight months. Eventually somebody was appointed last year,
Speaker 2: a Canadian company with the South African company and some
Speaker 2: sort of joint venture, and they obviously black empowerment requirements
Speaker 2: around that. So it's taken an awfully long time and
Speaker 2: one can hope that once the system rolls out in
Speaker 2: the Western KP initially later this year, is actually going
Speaker 2: to work. But clearly we can't work with the current system.
Speaker 1: There's so many aspects to this, and that the fact
Speaker 1: there's been a delay after a delay leading up to
Speaker 1: this new delay makes me wonder about the symbolism if
Speaker 1: you keep being promised something and you keep being disappointed
Speaker 1: even at sort of the last minute. International investors, people
Speaker 1: in Beijing who want to go on our online transparent
Speaker 1: cadastral system and find they still can't may just wonder
Speaker 1: if we're actually at all serious.
Speaker 2: Well it's a very good point. I mean, it doesn't
Speaker 2: make us look very serious. And the other issue is
Speaker 2: that most other African mining jurisdictions have these systems for years.
Speaker 2: In fact, I was working I was just thinking about
Speaker 2: it this afternoon. I was working in Nigeria more than
Speaker 2: ten years ago, helping the government their new mining code,
Speaker 2: and they'd al really set this thing up and got
Speaker 2: the World Bank to help them. And that's when I
Speaker 2: sort of focused on this issue in South Africa and
Speaker 2: started asking some questions as to why we didn't have one,
Speaker 2: which is I say they eventually came up with one
Speaker 2: two thousand and nine. The Samurai system has never worked properly,
Speaker 2: so it's basically been dysfunctional from the get go.
Speaker 1: You made the point that a paper based system has
Speaker 1: all sort of problems, and I know there's been quite
Speaker 1: a consistent claim from an MP in the DA James Lorimer,
Speaker 1: that in fact, no longer a paper system is working,
Speaker 1: the more potential there is for wrongdoing. I mean, I
Speaker 1: can't I have no causal reason to believe that that's true.
Speaker 1: But the virtue of an online system is that it
Speaker 1: does bring a lot more transparency that must be very
Speaker 1: very powerful in this space.
Speaker 2: Well that's the main reason for it. And as you
Speaker 2: said in your introduction. Everybody knows who's got whitch rights
Speaker 2: and what's still available. That's really important. But actually the
Speaker 2: point that James makes is substantiated by the fact there
Speaker 2: was quite a famous case involving Cumber and Imperial Crown Trading,
Speaker 2: which you might remember, Stephen, where exactly that happened, where
Speaker 2: we had a paper based system. The whole system was suborned,
Speaker 2: documents were forged, the applica you know, this company ICT
Speaker 2: got a prospecting right over the session iron or mine
Speaker 2: which Cumber had owned, you know since the nineteen fifties,
Speaker 2: various forms, and that's because it was a paper based system,
Speaker 2: was so easy to disabbort it and undermine it.
Speaker 1: It is astonishing. Peter Leon, thank you very much. Indeed,
Speaker 1: mining expert and partner at Herbert Smith Freehills. At some point,
Speaker 1: I suppose the problem is is that when the Ministry
Speaker 1: makes certain offers and government says no. When we have
Speaker 1: the government saying they'll do it themselves, and it doesn't
Speaker 1: really work when we have almost unexplained delays in some ways.
Speaker 1: The Minister did say yesterday, as I understand it, that
Speaker 1: it was you know that there was some more work
Speaker 1: to do and this needed to be done very precisely.
Speaker 1: It does lead to questions. Now, I mean, you've got
Speaker 1: no facts. I can't say this is why this has
Speaker 1: happened all, This is why put any kind of motive
Speaker 1: to it. It does just I think, leave people very,
Speaker 1: very disappointed