WEBVTT - Mining rights database roll-out delayed again

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<v Speaker 1>Confirmation in the last twenty four hours or so from

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<v Speaker 1>the Minister of Mineral, Mineral and Petroleum Resources Greta Mantasha

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<v Speaker 1>that the new online nine mapping system, the cadastral system

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<v Speaker 1>in the trade it's been delayed again, this time for

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<v Speaker 1>another three months, will only go live I think in November,

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<v Speaker 1>and that the current paper system very difficult or almost impossible

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<v Speaker 1>for a mining company. Don't know what other companies are mining,

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<v Speaker 1>what and where and where they can prospect. Peter Lyon

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<v Speaker 1>is a mining expert and partner at Herbert Smith Freehills. Peter,

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<v Speaker 1>a good evening to teach you. I do appreciate the time.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, yet another delay. There's been so many promises

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<v Speaker 1>about this and even the Ministry seemed to have previously

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<v Speaker 1>undertood how important a new online canstal system was.

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<v Speaker 2>Good e being Stephen, It's really extraordinary. I mean this

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<v Speaker 2>issue has been going on for years. In fact it started.

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<v Speaker 2>The promise was made initially by Susan Tebungo when she

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<v Speaker 2>was the Minister, that they introduced an electronic online supposedly

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<v Speaker 2>an electronic online system called SAMRA, the South Africa Mideral

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<v Speaker 2>Rights Application System, but never works. It was something that

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<v Speaker 2>the Department had formulated itself without using any outside consultants.

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<v Speaker 2>So the problem was that companies still had to basically

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<v Speaker 2>use a paper based system that gives lies to all

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<v Speaker 2>sorts of issues, particularly you know, fraud, corruption, dishonesty, the

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<v Speaker 2>rest of it. And that's why most African mining jurisdictions

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<v Speaker 2>in the Membia, for example, the North of Ice, Bobs,

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<v Speaker 2>Fina and so on, have all got online cadastral systems

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<v Speaker 2>and in fact I've had them for more than ten years.

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<v Speaker 2>The World Bank helped countries roll them out. So it

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<v Speaker 2>is extraordinary that South Africa in twenty twenty five is

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<v Speaker 2>still does still not have a proper cadosterral system and

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<v Speaker 2>as you say, it's been delayed again having been promised

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<v Speaker 2>for the last fifteen years.

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<v Speaker 1>Is there any I mean, is it that difficult to do?

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, online mapping is a big industry that lots

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<v Speaker 1>of people will help you do it. Other people around

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<v Speaker 1>us know how to do it. It can't be that hard, No.

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<v Speaker 2>It isn't. I mean. In fact, the Mineralist Council offered

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<v Speaker 2>to donate a bespoke system to the Department of Mineral

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<v Speaker 2>Resources about two years ago. And the department said, well,

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<v Speaker 2>they couldn't accept it, but maybe they should live. Because

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<v Speaker 2>that then went out to a tender. There was a

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<v Speaker 2>problem with that book stated Information Technology Agency said that

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<v Speaker 2>tender was irregular, so that held the thing up by

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<v Speaker 2>another six or eight months. Eventually somebody was appointed last year,

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<v Speaker 2>a Canadian company with the South African company and some

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<v Speaker 2>sort of joint venture, and they obviously black empowerment requirements

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<v Speaker 2>around that. So it's taken an awfully long time and

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<v Speaker 2>one can hope that once the system rolls out in

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<v Speaker 2>the Western KP initially later this year, is actually going

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<v Speaker 2>to work. But clearly we can't work with the current system.

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<v Speaker 1>There's so many aspects to this, and that the fact

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<v Speaker 1>there's been a delay after a delay leading up to

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<v Speaker 1>this new delay makes me wonder about the symbolism if

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<v Speaker 1>you keep being promised something and you keep being disappointed

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<v Speaker 1>even at sort of the last minute. International investors, people

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<v Speaker 1>in Beijing who want to go on our online transparent

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<v Speaker 1>cadastral system and find they still can't may just wonder

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<v Speaker 1>if we're actually at all serious.

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<v Speaker 2>Well it's a very good point. I mean, it doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>make us look very serious. And the other issue is

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<v Speaker 2>that most other African mining jurisdictions have these systems for years.

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<v Speaker 2>In fact, I was working I was just thinking about

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<v Speaker 2>it this afternoon. I was working in Nigeria more than

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<v Speaker 2>ten years ago, helping the government their new mining code,

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<v Speaker 2>and they'd al really set this thing up and got

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<v Speaker 2>the World Bank to help them. And that's when I

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<v Speaker 2>sort of focused on this issue in South Africa and

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<v Speaker 2>started asking some questions as to why we didn't have one,

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<v Speaker 2>which is I say they eventually came up with one

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<v Speaker 2>two thousand and nine. The Samurai system has never worked properly,

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<v Speaker 2>so it's basically been dysfunctional from the get go.

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<v Speaker 1>You made the point that a paper based system has

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<v Speaker 1>all sort of problems, and I know there's been quite

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<v Speaker 1>a consistent claim from an MP in the DA James Lorimer,

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<v Speaker 1>that in fact, no longer a paper system is working,

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<v Speaker 1>the more potential there is for wrongdoing. I mean, I

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<v Speaker 1>can't I have no causal reason to believe that that's true.

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<v Speaker 1>But the virtue of an online system is that it

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<v Speaker 1>does bring a lot more transparency that must be very

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<v Speaker 1>very powerful in this space.

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<v Speaker 2>Well that's the main reason for it. And as you

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<v Speaker 2>said in your introduction. Everybody knows who's got whitch rights

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<v Speaker 2>and what's still available. That's really important. But actually the

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<v Speaker 2>point that James makes is substantiated by the fact there

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<v Speaker 2>was quite a famous case involving Cumber and Imperial Crown Trading,

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<v Speaker 2>which you might remember, Stephen, where exactly that happened, where

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<v Speaker 2>we had a paper based system. The whole system was suborned,

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<v Speaker 2>documents were forged, the applica you know, this company ICT

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<v Speaker 2>got a prospecting right over the session iron or mine

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<v Speaker 2>which Cumber had owned, you know since the nineteen fifties,

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<v Speaker 2>various forms, and that's because it was a paper based system,

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<v Speaker 2>was so easy to disabbort it and undermine it.

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<v Speaker 1>It is astonishing. Peter Leon, thank you very much. Indeed,

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<v Speaker 1>mining expert and partner at Herbert Smith Freehills. At some point,

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<v Speaker 1>I suppose the problem is is that when the Ministry

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<v Speaker 1>makes certain offers and government says no. When we have

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<v Speaker 1>the government saying they'll do it themselves, and it doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>really work when we have almost unexplained delays in some ways.

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<v Speaker 1>The Minister did say yesterday, as I understand it, that

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<v Speaker 1>it was you know that there was some more work

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<v Speaker 1>to do and this needed to be done very precisely.

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<v Speaker 1>It does lead to questions. Now, I mean, you've got

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<v Speaker 1>no facts. I can't say this is why this has

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<v Speaker 1>happened all, This is why put any kind of motive

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<v Speaker 1>to it. It does just I think, leave people very,

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<v Speaker 1>very disappointed