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Speaker 1: Mister Conversations.

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Speaker 2: The conversation go to Prime mediaplass dot com.

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Speaker 1: Personally, I think the laziest statement that could come out

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Speaker 1: of a South African or anyone's mouth is I didn't

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Speaker 1: learn that at school. They didn't teach me that at school. Oh,

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Speaker 1: that's not a history that I was taught at school.

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Speaker 1: A lot of what I know, a lot of what

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Speaker 1: how I understand the world has come by me simply

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Speaker 1: going into something called the library and reading for myself.

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Speaker 1: A lot of things which are important and provides context

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Speaker 1: and texture isn't taught in the South African school or

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Speaker 1: many curriculums. But I have gone out and have gone

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Speaker 1: to read about what is South Africa, what makes South Africa,

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Speaker 1: and what makes a tech. But the Department of Basic Education,

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Speaker 1: they're they're they're offering some shifts when it comes to

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Speaker 1: the South African history curriculum. They are proposed changes that

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Speaker 1: move away from what's described as a Eurocentric narrative characters

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Speaker 1: like Jan van Ribe landing in the proto port of

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Speaker 1: Cape Town on the sixth of April sixteen fifty two,

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Speaker 1: moving towards the more African centered stories of our past,

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Speaker 1: moving away from the characters and figures to more ideas, concepts,

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Speaker 1: concepts like the French Revolution, the Anglo World War, global

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Speaker 1: movements like the civil rights movement in the US, greater

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Speaker 1: emphasis on African empires. Oral histories are archaeologies African liberation

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Speaker 1: movements that are rooted in the in the continent, and

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Speaker 1: these the debate and some have said that we are

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Speaker 1: is this a necessary correction of a colonial or does

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Speaker 1: it maybe risk narrowing particularly learn as global understanding. Joining

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Speaker 1: me now on the line is journalist author Nick Dohl.

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Speaker 1: He has, along with Matthew Blackman, written several fascinating books

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Speaker 1: on South African history. From Rogues Gallery, which is a

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Speaker 1: history of South African corruption, but also a book called Legends,

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Speaker 1: People who have Changed South Africa for the better. He

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Speaker 1: joins me now on the line, Good morning, Nick, really

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Speaker 1: appreciate your time. My children of age to be studying history.

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Speaker 1: Yet at school, I haven't touched a school history book

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Speaker 1: in many a year, so where is our curriculum currently

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Speaker 1: When it comes to the concept, the idea, the story

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Speaker 1: of a guy called Jan van Riebik and what then

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Speaker 1: becomes of what we now called the Republic of South Africa.

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Speaker 2: I also haven't done too much reading Morning Lester. Sorry

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Speaker 2: I should have said that first. Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: It is a bit early. So I think they've moved

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Speaker 2: away from from the idea of jan Freenriebeck being this

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Speaker 2: knight and shining armor, the idea that we were taught

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Speaker 2: at school. And I don't think he's the central hero

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Speaker 2: of the current curriculum. But that doesn't mean that there

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Speaker 2: isn't still some room for improvement.

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Speaker 1: So where would room for improvement be? Like I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm fascinated. I'm interested in books like yours and Matthews by,

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Speaker 1: books like Tula Simpson and The History of South Africa

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Speaker 1: books by Patrick Tarek Melite describe an idea of South

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Speaker 1: African history or what would you as in you as

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Speaker 1: a former school teacher yourself, what would be you for

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Speaker 1: you would be the balance in teaching the South African story.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I definitely don't think there's an issue with

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Speaker 2: with moving away from a eurocentric narrative in theory, you know,

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Speaker 2: like making it more afrocentric is certainly not a bad thing.

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Speaker 2: I don't agree with everything they've got rid of, especially

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Speaker 2: because some of that stuff isn't you know, like reducing

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Speaker 2: the focus on Steve Beeker. I'm not sure about that,

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Speaker 2: but I think for me, rather than getting into the

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Speaker 2: weeds of like exactly what's in and what's out, there

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Speaker 2: are a couple of like sort of overriding points that

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Speaker 2: concern me more so when I was at school and

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Speaker 2: when I speak to kids at school, there's an idea

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Speaker 2: that South Africa history is boring. They'd rather be learning

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Speaker 2: about World War Two than they would be learning about

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Speaker 2: South African history. And I think that's the thing. We've got,

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Speaker 2: a kind of the idea we've got to obliterate because

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Speaker 2: you know, I've written these three books, and how can

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Speaker 2: I put it. I got into writing because I wanted

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Speaker 2: to write fiction. I wrote a couple of novels. They

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Speaker 2: didn't get anywhere, and a lot of the reason was

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Speaker 2: that I couldn't come up with believable plots. Then I

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Speaker 2: got into writing fact and the stories I uncovered about

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Speaker 2: South African history are so outlandish. If you put them

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Speaker 2: in a novel, you would be told they were crazy.

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Speaker 2: But they were facts, so I could get away with

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Speaker 2: it and write these outlandish stories.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what I appreciate about what is my favorite book

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Speaker 1: of yours? Is Rogues Gas, which is an irreverent history

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Speaker 1: of South African corruption. And what I take from that

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Speaker 1: if you want to talk about a unified South African

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Speaker 1: story that is non racial, that is an equal opportunity offender,

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Speaker 1: and that is the concept of corruption. And if a

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Speaker 1: man like jan Van Rubika has been held in a

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Speaker 1: particular esteem in the past, what we can all agree

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Speaker 1: on and what you posit is Jan Vandrie Big south

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Speaker 1: Africa's first corrupt politician and certainly not by a stretch

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Speaker 1: of imagine imagination, not its lost. There's there's the shared

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Speaker 1: history in South Africa amounts white and black, and that

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Speaker 1: is the history of corruption in this country.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, so the Skelems we cover in Rog's

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Speaker 2: gallery are a truly multi cultural, multi racial bench. You know,

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Speaker 2: there's was Brits, you know, every every tribe under the sun.

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Speaker 2: But I must just add that that there are all men.

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Speaker 2: There wasn't a single woman featured on the cover. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: we'll leave that there. The other thing that I just

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Speaker 2: think is is so crucial because it is one of

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Speaker 2: the proposals, is that that history is going to become

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Speaker 2: a compulsory subject from grade ten to twelve I think,

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Speaker 2: and I think that's a great move because understanding our

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Speaker 2: history is like key to South Africa getting along a

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Speaker 2: bit better. You know, if we all had a bit

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Speaker 2: more appreciation of how we got here, it would would

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Speaker 2: be a good thing. But the big caveat is how's

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Speaker 2: it going to be done? You know, if the new

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Speaker 2: curriculum is sort of mired in theory and the teachers

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Speaker 2: don't really know how to approach it. Having history as

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Speaker 2: a compulsory sobject could sort of end up being an

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Speaker 2: annoyance to student if it's done well and it focuses

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Speaker 2: on like the fascinating, wonderful or terrible stories in our

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Speaker 2: history or just plain bizarre histories in our story. I think,

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Speaker 2: you know, theory and pedagogy and all of that and

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Speaker 2: all very well, but I think children, I mean and adults,

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Speaker 2: but it's especially children relate to stories. And we've got

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Speaker 2: such incredible stories that illustrate and people, you know.

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Speaker 1: The stories centered around individuals. So there would be a

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Speaker 1: smooth to move less to tell individual stories and more

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Speaker 1: talk about concepts, concepts of revolution, concepts of African history,

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Speaker 1: and and and oral histories. But when you look at

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Speaker 1: a book like legends. You talk about people like Ceci Gula,

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Speaker 1: anti aparthe activist, first black woman public representative in Cape Town.

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Speaker 1: You talk about Sailor Milan, someone who I did not

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Speaker 1: necessarily know before I picked up your book, or World

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Speaker 1: War two fighter pilot early opponent to her party. It's

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Speaker 1: someone like Eugene Marie who is this complex figure and

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Speaker 1: his contributions from everything from literature to natural history. Are

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Speaker 1: these characters important in a general South African story or

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Speaker 1: for someone who wants to delve deeper to find out

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Speaker 1: some of these characters, as you say, you're trying to

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Speaker 1: figure out and trying to write about to make the

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Speaker 1: South African story interesting.

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Speaker 2: But Yeah, in the sort of formal practice of history,

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Speaker 2: I think there's a movement away from characters from individuals.

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Speaker 2: And Matthew and I are not professional historians. We are

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Speaker 2: journalists and writers with it with a very keen interest

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Speaker 2: in history, and we feel that, you know, using stories

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Speaker 2: to illustrate and the individuals to illustrate wider themes is

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Speaker 2: a great tool because it just it gets people to

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Speaker 2: at least engage with the subject. If it's all theoretical,

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Speaker 2: it's it's much harder to approach. So take someone like

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Speaker 2: Miriam Macaba. Everyone knows her music, but her life story

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Speaker 2: will will tell you the history of a part eight.

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Speaker 2: You know, she was born, she was when she was

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Speaker 2: two weeks old, she was sent to jail with her

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Speaker 2: mother because her mother was caught illegally brewing beer. She

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Speaker 2: she worked, you know, scrowned the job the only jobs

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Speaker 2: that were available to a young black woman in a

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Speaker 2: partheid you know, basically cleaning other people's houses. Had also

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Speaker 2: you know, repeatedly got fired by her white bosses. And

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Speaker 2: somehow overcame all of this to become a global superstar

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Speaker 2: just through the power of music. And when she was

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Speaker 2: in America, she she then illustrated some of these She

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Speaker 2: was part of the anti Aparthe eight movement. She was

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Speaker 2: used as a spokesperson through connections with the ANC. She

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Speaker 2: she lost one of one or two of her uncles

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Speaker 2: at Sharpville. She is, I believe the only person who's

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Speaker 2: not a politician to have addressed the un General Assembly

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Speaker 2: four times in New York. And then she married because

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Speaker 2: one of the things they getting rid of is the

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Speaker 2: Black Palmer movement. She married Stokely Carmichael, who was a

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Speaker 2: close associate of Malcolm X, so you illustrate that too.

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Speaker 2: And my point is that her life is just so

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Speaker 2: fascinating impossible to be bored about it, even if you

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Speaker 2: are a seventeen year old, you know, staring out of

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Speaker 2: the window and thinking of anything bad history.

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Speaker 1: Nick, don't have to leave it there, but really appreciate

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Speaker 1: your time. Go find the books. There are several co

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Speaker 1: written with Nick and Matthew Blackman. My favorite would be

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Speaker 1: Grogus Galler. It's a history of corruption in South Africa.

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Speaker 1: There's what he's referencing. Maria Macaba. She features in a

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Speaker 1: book called Legends People who have Changed South African for

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Speaker 1: the better. If you are parent, if you are a teacher,

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Speaker 1: I'd like to know you underd your perspective on your

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Speaker 1: thoughts of how we retell or tell differently a story

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Speaker 1: of South Africa with these proposed changes,