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Speaker 1: Seven or two world of what our world of work feature,

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Speaker 1: And today we are discussing mobbing at work. You know,

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Speaker 1: when there's a group that you work with that somehow

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Speaker 1: quietly and deliberately pushes you out. They isolate you until

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Speaker 1: you can't take it anymore and you decide to leave

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Speaker 1: the company. So it's group based workplace harassment. You can

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Speaker 1: think of it as that. But this is where you've

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Speaker 1: got several people and often these are your peers. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: that includes even leaders of an organization, and they're tending

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Speaker 1: on one person and slowly squeeze them out, and it

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Speaker 1: tends to be planned and then it spreads and it's

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Speaker 1: often designed to look like, ah, this is just normal

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Speaker 1: workplace dynamics from the outside. And it's different to bullying

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Speaker 1: because that is often when one person is targeting another,

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Speaker 1: frequently in a more direct way and sometimes tied to power,

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Speaker 1: and it could be a manager who's abusing their authority.

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Speaker 1: For instance, have you been a victim of mobbing at work?

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Speaker 1: Have you found yourself being isolated by your team, quietly

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Speaker 1: being pushed out, They squeeze you out, and sometimes it's

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Speaker 1: just like ah, those meetings that you're suddenly being left out,

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Speaker 1: or they're not inviting you to that social gathering that

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Speaker 1: happens every single Friday as a team to reflect on

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Speaker 1: the week that ours. It's things like that, have you

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Speaker 1: been a victim of mobbing at work? And how have

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Speaker 1: you dealt with it? Oh one eight eight three oh

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Speaker 1: seven oh two is the number two dial? What's up on?

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Speaker 1: Seven two seven two one seven two. Adrian Garden is

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Speaker 1: the deal of academic support at Rosebank College is going

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Speaker 1: to guide us through this conversation. Adrian, thank you for

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Speaker 1: making time. Good morning, good.

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Speaker 2: Morning, and good morning to everyone listening.

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Speaker 1: Let's start by differentiating between the bullying and more being.

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Speaker 1: What's the difference between the two in your understanding.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the bullying as you as you said before,

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Speaker 2: it's it's sometimes more direct and very often it's also

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Speaker 2: related to power, So it's usually the manager bullying the

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Speaker 2: subordinate into doing something. Very rarely does it happen the

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Speaker 2: other way around, whereas this mobbing is is a little

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Speaker 2: bit more intentional, and it is it's usually group based,

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Speaker 2: so there's a group of people that have almost willfully

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Speaker 2: decided to target somebody and then quite manipulate the create

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Speaker 2: scenario that excludes them and and in fact makes the

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Speaker 2: victims seem as if are they are they delusional or

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Speaker 2: are they making this thing up? So there's it also

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Speaker 2: creates uncertainty within the individual as to why this is

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Speaker 2: happening to them?

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Speaker 1: What what is do we even understand Adrian, what the

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Speaker 1: psychology is behind this? Like why in your experience do

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Speaker 1: such groups exist and and why do employees and end

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Speaker 1: up joining in on such groups that that that isolate

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Speaker 1: other team members.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think it's all to do with the

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Speaker 2: culture and how embedded the culture is within the company.

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Speaker 2: If the culture is almost just paying lip service to

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Speaker 2: some you know jargon that that typically gets thrown around,

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Speaker 2: you know, an organization, then that actually creates an environment

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Speaker 2: where mobbing can go undetected and go under the radar.

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Speaker 2: Whereas if a company really does hold true to its

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Speaker 2: values and everybody is buying into it, then these instances

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Speaker 2: become less. I think it's also about where you are

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Speaker 2: in the faith. So if you are a new group

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Speaker 2: of employees or there's a new team that's formed, then

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Speaker 2: you almost want to establish yourself in the picking order.

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Speaker 2: And if you have a dominant person that decides to

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Speaker 2: follow this route and to isolate people. Then it's almost

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Speaker 2: like tear pressure. You almost have to join the group

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Speaker 2: or become one of the victims.

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Speaker 1: So it could it also be a dream that sometimes

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Speaker 1: it's the managers that the company hires who are not

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Speaker 1: necessarily aligned with the values of the company, and that's

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Speaker 1: why because of the power that they possess, they're able

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Speaker 1: to get the rest of the team to be against

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Speaker 1: Clement for instance.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, your managers must be the first one to buy

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Speaker 2: into the the cultural organization. And if they don't, yeah,

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Speaker 2: they almost it gives everybody else permission to follow suits

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Speaker 2: and to lead, or to to do the things that

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Speaker 2: they see their manager doing as well. I think it's

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Speaker 2: very short sighted, though. A manager who adopts that approach

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Speaker 2: to get their way, I think is themselves. I don't

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Speaker 2: think they hold them their own ability in high regard

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Speaker 2: because it's usually a fearful reaction or a fearful technique

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Speaker 2: that is used.

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Speaker 3: I see.

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Speaker 1: So, how do you recognize like this kind of pattern

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Speaker 1: for someone who's listening and is wondering. I wonder if

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Speaker 1: I am currently experiencing mobbing at work, maybe they've picked

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Speaker 1: up some signs, but you know, it's not conclusive. What

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Speaker 1: are the signs to look out for? How do we

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Speaker 1: recognize that this is mobbing at work?

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Speaker 2: The thing that I've picked up when you know, in

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Speaker 2: experiencing this is just how cleverly it is implemented, because

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Speaker 2: the signs are usually quite subtle and can usually be

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Speaker 2: dismissed if you ask the person directly. So, for example,

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Speaker 2: you might start getting excluded from a meeting and when

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Speaker 2: you address it, people will go, oh, sorry, we just

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Speaker 2: forgot you this time. Don't worry about it, you know,

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Speaker 2: and they almost dismissed the concern. So in this case,

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Speaker 2: it's not necessarily about identifying individual things that happen to you.

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Speaker 2: It's about identifying the pattern. What is the general trend

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Speaker 2: of what's happening? How many times have I been excluded?

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Speaker 2: And it'll be a combination of different exclusionary things that

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Speaker 2: happen to you, which then give you an idea of Okay,

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Speaker 2: I think something is happening here in a group dynamic ways.

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Speaker 1: I've got messages coming through here on the what's up line?

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Speaker 1: Oh seven two seven or two one seven, or to

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Speaker 1: please share your experiences with us. I'll get to those

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Speaker 1: messages in a moment. You also welcome to call us

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Speaker 1: on oh one one eight A three oh seven oh

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Speaker 1: two adrin can can can we sometimes experience like the

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Speaker 1: covid nature of mobbing? And and why does it often

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Speaker 1: mess up with your head? Because maybe you experience it,

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Speaker 1: but it's not so obvious, and sometimes you sit and wonder,

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Speaker 1: you know, maybe I am over exaggerating certain scenarios, especially

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Speaker 1: because I'm sure you're constantly being guesst lid if you're

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Speaker 1: brave enough to even raise it with a manager or

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Speaker 1: a failer team member.

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Speaker 3: But other instances.

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Speaker 1: Where this can be covert, where it starts messing up

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Speaker 1: with your head.

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Speaker 2: I agreed, and I think this is exactly the evolution

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Speaker 2: that we're seeing in a O a couple of instances.

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Speaker 2: I think social media and the prevalence of WhatsApp groups

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Speaker 2: uh and and the anonymmity that you can hide in

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Speaker 2: those kinds of groups, as well as what you've just

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Speaker 2: referred to as gas lighting. This is kind of the

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Speaker 2: evolution because it means that you start questioning whether or

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Speaker 2: not it is real. And I think that's a fundamental

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Speaker 2: weapon for anybody who's using this tactic, is to keep

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Speaker 2: the person feeling unsettled and whether it's really real or not,

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Speaker 2: you know, and very often That's why I said this

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Speaker 2: is quite an insiduous tactic because it is well planned

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Speaker 2: and very cleverly implements it. For that balance to be

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Speaker 2: struck where somebody's always questioning whether this is a real

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Speaker 2: thing or not, that takes quite a bit of thought.

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Speaker 1: So what do you do if you think this is

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Speaker 1: happening to you? What are the first steps to take?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a tricky one because in the team dynamic,

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Speaker 2: you know, you have to work with these individuals day

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Speaker 2: in and day out. So I think your first port

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Speaker 2: of call is to address it head on, you know,

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Speaker 2: and openly talk about the instances that you feel are

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Speaker 2: becoming a pattern, at least with your line manager, even

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Speaker 2: though they may be part of it. I think it

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Speaker 2: is important, like in any bullying scenario, to stand up

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Speaker 2: and to voice exactly what it is that is happening

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Speaker 2: to you, so that you make it almost a reality

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Speaker 2: and you stop questioning whether it's happening or not, and

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Speaker 2: you almost make that conscious decision to address it. Now,

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Speaker 2: obviously that can be dismissed quite easily, but I think

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Speaker 2: then the next step is obviously the formal route where

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Speaker 2: all the organizations have an HR policy, they have an

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Speaker 2: anti bullying policy, and this falls under that policy. So

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Speaker 2: it's then about finding the people who are not part

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Speaker 2: of this and using them to find a way forward,

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Speaker 2: almost like a legal or a policy driven way.

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Speaker 4: Mm.

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Speaker 3: And is there is there legal recourse as well to take.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, especially if the discrimination falls under things like racial

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Speaker 2: description discrimination or gender discrimination. You know, the law protects

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Speaker 2: you in that regard. So even if you've been dismissed

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Speaker 2: on the notion of this kind of ganging together, the

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Speaker 2: legal recourses that you can take it to the labor courts,

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Speaker 2: for example, and challenge the outcome based on the evidence

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Speaker 2: that you that you can present, and you know, you

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Speaker 2: can ask for damages, you can ask for compensation, or

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Speaker 2: you could even ask for reinstatements.

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Speaker 3: Okay, let's go to some whatsups.

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Speaker 1: Now, this this is a Charles who says, high Clement,

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Speaker 1: I hope you're will today. Yeah, there are people like

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Speaker 1: that at my previous company. They tugget you for nothing

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Speaker 1: just because they're feeling threatened by the way you're so

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Speaker 1: good at your work, and they make you resign or

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Speaker 1: they will plant evidence against you so that you can

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Speaker 1: get fired. So that is Charles sharing his experience with

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Speaker 1: us based on the company that he's worked for previously.

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Speaker 1: Another one says, side limit, this thing happens a lot

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Speaker 1: all the time with me. Then I realized I'm not

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Speaker 1: such a nice person after all. So what's my reaction personally?

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Speaker 1: I tell them to kick rocks and then make them

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Speaker 1: feel intellectually inferior for control that is, and I always wait,

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Speaker 1: what I do is pick the ring leader, mop the

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Speaker 1: floor with them, and re establish control. Whoa I mean,

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Speaker 1: this person really goes into detail about how they justmantle

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Speaker 1: that entire system.

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Speaker 3: But is that the way to deal with it.

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Speaker 1: Like, get the ring leader, mop the floor with them,

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Speaker 1: so you establish some level of control.

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't go to that extreme in terms of the

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Speaker 2: terminology you but I agree with tackling the thing head on.

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Speaker 2: You know, usually there is a ring need that there

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Speaker 2: is a person that you can almost see who where

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Speaker 2: this happens the most, you know, And I also agree

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Speaker 2: that that addressing it head on is one of the

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Speaker 2: options to take. I indicated before you know. I think

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Speaker 2: the adage is always about if you can identify the

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Speaker 2: bully and stand up to them, then then usually they

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Speaker 2: leave you alone. I would imagine that to a large extent,

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Speaker 2: this is the case here as well. If you directly

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Speaker 2: address this, not necessarily mop the floor with them, but

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Speaker 2: if you are strong enough and determined enough and actually

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Speaker 2: very aware emotionally of what is happening, and you actually

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Speaker 2: address it head on, especially with the person that's needing this,

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Speaker 2: then a lot of the time it at least opens

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Speaker 2: a dialogue. And very often these things happen because of

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Speaker 2: a misunderstanding or an assumption that has been made, and

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Speaker 2: at least the dialogue allows you to address that assumption

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Speaker 2: and establish a new relationship.

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Speaker 5: Okay, I learnant, and your guest, my principle is simple.

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Speaker 5: Why to stay where you are not needed? People who

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Speaker 5: stays in these kind of or conditions are people who

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Speaker 5: are kind of despited who doesn't have alternatives, especially if

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Speaker 5: you are at the older age. Invented commerce. But I

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Speaker 5: left the transport agency in South Africa because of the

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Speaker 5: same behavior.

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Speaker 3: I was mopped.

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Speaker 5: I left voluntarily and left them there to enjoy whatever

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Speaker 5: theyre doing anonymous centure.

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Speaker 1: So, and here's the thing, Adrian, I mean, there are

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Speaker 1: people who experience this and the easy quick solution here

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Speaker 1: is just leave the organization. But then that doesn't really

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Speaker 1: change the organization because then there are people who are

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Speaker 1: gonna come and join that team or join the company,

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Speaker 1: and they're likely to face a similar scenario as well.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not suggesting here that employees must take it

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Speaker 1: upon themselves as their responsibility to fix the organization and

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Speaker 1: those who don't align with the culture. But also because

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Speaker 1: also you can't really blame them, right, you can't blame

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Speaker 1: the people who leave because what else is available. Maybe

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Speaker 1: for them they don't see any other recourse. Maybe they

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Speaker 1: don't see that if they raise it with a manager,

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Speaker 1: something will come of it. But I'm just concerned about

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Speaker 1: the if you leave and you've not even raised it

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Speaker 1: even in your exit interview, if you work for a

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Speaker 1: company that does that, it still opens the door to

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Speaker 1: someone else becoming victim to that kind of attitude.

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Speaker 2: Now, I agree, and I think any organization that is

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Speaker 2: interested in a sustainable growth and a history and a

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Speaker 2: legacy of excellence will take these allegations seriously because in

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Speaker 2: the long run, if you have this kind of culture,

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Speaker 2: you are ultimately you will effectively hit the bottom line

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Speaker 2: at some point your profits will will drop because the

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Speaker 2: culture that has been created doesn't allow for sustainable customer

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Speaker 2: relationships or productive partnerships. So you will get instances where

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Speaker 2: if this is reported, it is usually investigated quite thoroughly

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Speaker 2: and quite rigorously, and people will listen to you, even

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Speaker 2: if it isn't your direct line manager. I think then

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Speaker 2: in instances where it is ignored, then you do face

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Speaker 2: that that the lemma of how much energy do I

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Speaker 2: put into this myself? How much abuse do I take

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Speaker 2: before I actually have to preserve my own sanity and

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Speaker 2: move on, you know, And that's a choice that people

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Speaker 2: will have to make. And I'm sure anonymous had we

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Speaker 2: have got to that point where they had reached this

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Speaker 2: almost emotional point of departure. But I agree with you.

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Speaker 2: I think at the very least it's not anonymously. So

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Speaker 2: many organizations have ethics hotlines where you can anonymously layer

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Speaker 2: complaint or share what is been witnessed. You know, you

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Speaker 2: must also talk about it as your exit interview and

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Speaker 2: be very specific and deliberate about it.

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Speaker 1: M Okay, we'll come back to some of the what'sapp

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Speaker 1: messages here. There's a text here that says Leimon can

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Speaker 1: your guest also comment on the use of a WhatsApp

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Speaker 1: group where it is known that not everyone is in

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Speaker 1: that WhatsApp group instead of the work communication channels like

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Speaker 1: teams to discuss things both serious and casual. Could this

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Speaker 1: be a sign of mobbing? That's a question from CD.

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Speaker 1: My understanding here is knowing that there's a WhatsApp group

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Speaker 1: that exists, but not everybody is in it. It's just

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Speaker 1: a select few people in the company or in that

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Speaker 1: team that are part of that what'sapp. And then there

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Speaker 1: are other channels where like work communication kind of channels.

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Speaker 1: Is that a sign of mobbing, is what she's asking.

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Speaker 2: I think it can be, and it needs to be

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Speaker 2: looked at in conjunction with all of the other activities

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Speaker 2: that are happening everything else that you're almost getting excluded from.

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Speaker 2: I am increasingly wary of WhatsApp groups. I think you know,

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Speaker 2: you have your formal business WhatsApp channels and it's a

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Speaker 2: curated and you can track and trace the messages that

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Speaker 2: are going through because it's a business account. Those ones

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Speaker 2: I'm less concerned about, but it is about the almost

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Speaker 2: informal communication layer that does happen. We've got a WhatsApp

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Speaker 2: group in our space. And you know, the thing that

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Speaker 2: we essentially do is we have more than one administrator

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Speaker 2: and we have more than one curator of this so

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Speaker 2: that if somebody wants to come in, it isn't managed

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Speaker 2: or controlled by one person who has all the power

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Speaker 2: to exclude or include certain people. So there has to

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Speaker 2: be a democratic management of that space, but also an

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Speaker 2: acknowledgment that the space cannot be used for business purposes

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Speaker 2: at all and as much as possible, this is a

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Speaker 2: WhatsApp group that is open to all for transparency reasons.

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Speaker 2: If you've been excluded from it, and you have asked

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Speaker 2: to be included in it and you still are not

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Speaker 2: being allowed in, then certainly that can be an indicator

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Speaker 2: of if not mobbing, at least bullying.

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Speaker 4: And my name seven on two, I'm just listening to

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Speaker 4: the rador recording the am while being bullying at also

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Speaker 4: the victim. I worked the seven years in the company.

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Speaker 4: I take the good senior credit controller. However I picked

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Speaker 4: up the incorrect things that we're doing within the finance department.

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Speaker 4: What I realized later it was all senior management involved

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Speaker 4: in this matter. I did go to system to fight

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Speaker 4: the case, but I failed because I realized that even

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Speaker 4: the union it was involved in this matter. So there's

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Speaker 4: no willing situation. Once the company has that a bulling

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Speaker 4: or mobbing system, if we become a victim the end

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Speaker 4: of it all, we are going to be out of

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Speaker 4: that job. So it is how the operation works, regardless

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Speaker 4: of how you work, how wemented. The betterness of the company.

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Speaker 4: It doesn't work because they want to see you being

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Speaker 4: out because you're becoming a problem to them.

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Speaker 6: I came, I was retrenched because of that. I saw

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Speaker 6: that there was a movement, but I couldn't see what

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Speaker 6: was hipping. Eventually I was retrenched by the consains that

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Speaker 6: something was going on. So does their playing all alone

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Speaker 6: to address me? So they said, led me on meetings,

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Speaker 6: on meetings.

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Speaker 7: Good morning, Clement and seven not to listeners. It's a

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Speaker 7: very sensitive topic about being bullied at work by your

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Speaker 7: manager and your manager mobilizing the team that you're supposed

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Speaker 7: to be working with not to listen to you and

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Speaker 7: make your work so difficult. And even if, as your

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Speaker 7: guests say, you approach your confront it does not work.

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Speaker 3: It didn't work. It's torture.

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Speaker 7: They discredit you work like you don't know what you're doing.

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Speaker 7: They make you feel like you are nothing. It's very

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Speaker 7: bad the experience that I experienced in twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 3: Your Clement, it's Metsia from Haniju.

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Speaker 1: Sure, thank you for sharing your experiences with us, so

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Speaker 1: that can normally imagine how difficult it must have been, Adrian,

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Speaker 1: Before we wrap up, what do you think organizations need

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Speaker 1: to do before mobbing spreads? What can they do to

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Speaker 1: ensure that this is not what the employees experience?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's a couple of things. As always,

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Speaker 2: prevention is better than reaction, and to knowledge that this

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Speaker 2: type of activity does exist. So at the very least

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Speaker 2: there are structures and policies in place that protect the employee.

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Speaker 2: You know, I was listening to the comments in our organization.

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Speaker 2: For example, if we are concerned about this kind of thing,

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Speaker 2: the ethics hotline doesn't go directly to our senior management.

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Speaker 2: That goes to our kind of our holding company that

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Speaker 2: holds our senior managers to account as well. So there's

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Speaker 2: at least this level of separation in terms of the

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Speaker 2: investigation and the concerns that have been raised. But in

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Speaker 2: addition to that, it is also then about an active

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Speaker 2: engagement in the culture and ensuring that everybody is aware.

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Speaker 2: And it's not even just an awareness, it's about how

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Speaker 2: you ingrain and behave within an organization that creates a

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Speaker 2: zero tolerance environment for this kind of thing. It's easier

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Speaker 2: said than done, you know, you listen to the trauma

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Speaker 2: that people go through. It is easier said than done.

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Speaker 2: But I think at the end of the day, if

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Speaker 2: you can ground yourself and if you know within your

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Speaker 2: own heart and within you know your own reasonable and

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Speaker 2: emotional intelligence, that you have done nothing wrong, then that

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Speaker 2: at least gives you the courage to follow the roots

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Speaker 2: that can be followed to address this issue.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you so much for making time for us.

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Speaker 1: Adrian Garden is the deal of academic support at Rosebank

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Speaker 1: College that takes us to eleventh thirty one