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Speaker 1: Weekend Breakfast with Sarah Jane Macgui la Quim.

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Speaker 2: We all have a voice, use yours called too one

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Speaker 2: double four, six, five, six seven.

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Speaker 3: Join the conversation on Cape Talk.

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Speaker 1: All right. If you love music that pushes boundaries and

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Speaker 1: completely reimagines what's possible, then this next conversation is for you.

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Speaker 1: Jacob Collier is a multi Grammy award winning artist, composer, producer,

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Speaker 1: quite frankly, a musical genius. If you've not yet heard

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Speaker 1: of him because you've been living under a rock, then

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Speaker 1: please just find yourself on YouTube, type in Jacob Collier

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Speaker 1: and prepare to be blown away by his musical genius.

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Speaker 1: He's known for his extraordinary arrangements, mind bending harmonies, and

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Speaker 1: his electric live performances that really turn audiences into part

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Speaker 1: of the show. And he's heading to Cape Town next

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Speaker 1: week to headline the Cape Town International Jazz Festival. He's

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Speaker 1: also hosting a completely sold out masterclass and I got

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Speaker 1: to chat with him in the week. Have to say,

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Speaker 1: after a number of years doing this gig, what certainly

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Speaker 1: twenty plus, having interviewed an awful lot of people, there

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Speaker 1: are very few people these days that really you know,

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Speaker 1: I can I get fan girly about but I am

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Speaker 1: such a fan of his and he was absolutely charming

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Speaker 1: and delightful and fascinating. This is my conversation with Jacob Collier.

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Speaker 1: We are so excited to welcome you to Cape Town

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Speaker 1: in just gosh, a few days time.

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Speaker 3: Yes, it's going to.

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Speaker 1: Be your first time playing on in South Africa, playing

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Speaker 1: in Cape Town.

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Speaker 3: It is my first time in South Africa. Can you

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Speaker 3: believe it? I'm so thrilled.

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Speaker 1: You know, as South Africans, particularly as Cape Tonians, we

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Speaker 1: are always wildly excited when people come for the first time. Yes,

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Speaker 1: we are unabashedly and unashamedly proud of Cape Town. For

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Speaker 1: you landing somewhere new and performing somewhere new, what does

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Speaker 1: that bring up? What are you excited to? What do

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Speaker 1: the senses tell you when you land somewhere new?

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Speaker 2: Yes, well, I mean I think the first thing to

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Speaker 2: say is everybody he's been to Cape Town or who

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Speaker 2: lives in Cape Down who I know, is just full

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Speaker 2: of light about this amazing place, as you say, And

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Speaker 2: so of all the places I've ever traveled to that

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Speaker 2: I've never been to, this is what I'm particularly excited

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Speaker 2: for because I know there's going to be this kind

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Speaker 2: of ignition that happens there. Obviously, you know that the

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Speaker 2: stunningness of the of the city and of the natural

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Speaker 2: world is kind of, you know, second to none I hear.

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Speaker 2: But also that the musical history in this country is

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Speaker 2: so colossal and has had.

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Speaker 3: A real impact on me.

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Speaker 2: So I just I get the sense that there's something

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Speaker 2: special brewing, and I just can't wait to come.

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Speaker 1: Do you have a sort of the way that I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of people when I when I mentioned

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Speaker 1: to people I was going to be speaking to a

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Speaker 1: friend of mine who is a musician, said ask him

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Speaker 1: what he hears in his head? And I thought, that's.

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Speaker 3: Such a Jacob Pollier type question. I knew exactly, I

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Speaker 3: knew exactly what.

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Speaker 1: He meant when he said that are you are you?

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Speaker 1: Do you carry sort of sonic imprints of places in

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Speaker 1: your head? Because when I think of places that I've

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Speaker 1: traveled inadvertently, it's almost like that happens in my brain

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Speaker 1: and I attach a sound to a place.

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Speaker 3: Do you have that? Yes, it's a lovely question. I

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Speaker 3: get the sense.

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Speaker 2: You know, the way my memory works is is and

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Speaker 2: it's probably the same for lots of people. But there's

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Speaker 2: a there's a sort of amalgamation of the senses that

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Speaker 2: happens around particular people or places, or artists or artwork

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Speaker 2: in general, where it's it's hard to say, no, I

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Speaker 2: hear this specific thing more than I see this, particularly

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Speaker 2: when I feel or there's a texture or.

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Speaker 3: You know, when I was a child, I used to

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Speaker 3: call these things mind textures, you know, the sort of

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Speaker 3: cross fabric of memory and life.

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Speaker 2: And so I have this general sense of what South

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Speaker 2: Africa means to me from stories from artists, from music

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Speaker 2: I've heard, from history lessons, you know, all these all

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Speaker 2: these things, and it's it comes as a very specific thing.

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Speaker 2: But but there's no way can really, you know, smell

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Speaker 2: it for myself until I really come and come and

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Speaker 2: experience it, which I'm just about to do.

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Speaker 1: As I say, we are so excited that you were coming,

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Speaker 1: and it would be remissive me not to mention the

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Speaker 1: master class that you were hosting. And before people get excited,

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Speaker 1: it's sold out. It went online about twenty minutes ago

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Speaker 1: and it's sold out. So that's done, folks. But what

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Speaker 1: can one expect from a Jacob Collier master class?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a funny word mask class Isn't it strange,

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Speaker 3: isn't it?

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Speaker 2: It sort of implies that I'm coming in with full

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Speaker 2: of expertise and that i know everything I'm talking about

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Speaker 2: and I'm going to just dispel it upon people.

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Speaker 3: It's much more of a conversation.

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Speaker 2: You know. It's the same thing I think that I

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Speaker 2: fek about my shows, which is, you know, there as

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Speaker 2: there's a traditional dynamic between performer an audience where a

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Speaker 2: perform all kind of you know, unveil this thing that

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Speaker 2: they've prepared and the audience will just sort of sit

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Speaker 2: and experience.

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Speaker 3: It, which I've never cared too much for.

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Speaker 2: I love the I love breaking down that wall between

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Speaker 2: the two, and it's always such a cross pollination of experiences.

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Speaker 3: The mask classes this is the same. I love to

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Speaker 3: take questions.

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Speaker 2: I love to be of service to the people in

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Speaker 2: the room who are there, because that's why, that's why

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Speaker 2: I'm there. I don't need to you know, I don't

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Speaker 2: need to affirm my own agenda to myself any further

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Speaker 2: than I already hold. I feel like I'm just as

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Speaker 2: curious about about about the people as as they are

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Speaker 2: about me. And you know, it's it's it's this experience

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Speaker 2: of exploring ideas. You know, sometimes I speak about musical things,

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Speaker 2: you know, harmony and rhythm and melody and storytelling and lyrics,

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Speaker 2: and sometimes we just talk about you know, the world

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Speaker 2: right now and and and what it means to be

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Speaker 2: a human being. Sometimes about the music industry, sometimes about

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Speaker 2: emotional navigation and development, sometimes about growing up. And collaborations

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Speaker 2: obviously a big thing as well. So so there are

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Speaker 2: these different strands, but I've really come I've come to

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Speaker 2: really love the experience of being in conversation with people

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Speaker 2: because I learned so much about how I can be

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Speaker 2: of service, which is something I think about a lot.

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Speaker 1: You know, to what extent Jacob does, does what you

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Speaker 1: do feel like work? I'm so interested to know that

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Speaker 1: because when one watches you and watches you in your

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Speaker 1: process and performing, whether it be live, whether it be

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Speaker 1: Byron album, whether it be on a clip on YouTube,

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Speaker 1: or whatever it may be, there is a sense with you,

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Speaker 1: and yes, with an awful lot of musicians. But there's

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Speaker 1: something that people say, hmm, there's something, there's something different

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Speaker 1: here that you know, and some people might say it's

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Speaker 1: a god given thing or whatever it might be. But

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Speaker 1: at the same time, you are in an industry. You're

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Speaker 1: in the music business, and I wonder to what degree

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Speaker 1: then you have managed to find a balance between the

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Speaker 1: very integral love of music and the business side of it,

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Speaker 1: which I would imagine has the potential to possibly dampen

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Speaker 1: one's enthusiasm for the thing.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, oh for sure.

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Speaker 2: So I mean, I've had this fairly unconventional route into

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Speaker 2: where I am right now. You know, I was such

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Speaker 2: a self starter as a kid, I sort of. I

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Speaker 2: was so determined to make these these musical experiments just

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Speaker 2: the way I wanted to make them, and I made

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Speaker 2: them all in here actually the room I speaking.

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Speaker 3: To now from London.

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Speaker 2: And so I think the process of learning the different

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Speaker 2: disciplines required to be a storyteller, which I think.

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Speaker 3: In this century is is really broad.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's obviously the craft of playing an instrument

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Speaker 2: or singing, but there's also you know, engineering and recording

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Speaker 2: and mixing and production, as well as filming.

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Speaker 3: And video editing.

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Speaker 2: And then there's the sort of marketing and broadcasting of

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Speaker 2: ideas and being a compelling enough storyteller to.

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Speaker 3: Engage people on an emotional level.

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Speaker 2: And that's not to say also live performance and then

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Speaker 2: being conversation, all these all these different things, Like I've

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Speaker 2: really enjoyed the challenge, and it is a challenge of

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Speaker 2: maintaining a sort of relationship with all these different disciplines

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Speaker 2: as a human and just kind of making sure I

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Speaker 2: expand for the moment that we're in history. You know,

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Speaker 2: I think that when I think about what Dampen's spirits.

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Speaker 2: You know, the music industry is obviously a place, it's

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Speaker 2: it's a weird one, but it's it's a it's one

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Speaker 2: branch of a capitalist system, which is much more problematic

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Speaker 2: than just music. You know. I think there's a there's

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Speaker 2: a musical version of it, but I think that human

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Speaker 2: beings in general are trying to are asking the question

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Speaker 2: right now of how do we interface with the world

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Speaker 2: full of tension and dissonance you could say, in musical

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Speaker 2: terms dissonance. How do we fashion consonants? You know, how

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Speaker 2: do we meet each other? And how do we how

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Speaker 2: do we tell the truth? And all these things. So

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Speaker 2: I think those are those are more underlying problems and

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Speaker 2: questions to one particular industry. I think many many different

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Speaker 2: people across many disciplines to thinking about it. I think,

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Speaker 2: you know, I take my role as an artist both

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Speaker 2: very seriously and also hold it very lightly, because I

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Speaker 2: think that some of the most profound and important answers

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Speaker 2: come when we hold things lightly and we don't hold

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Speaker 2: things too tight and try really hard. And I think

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Speaker 2: that my most effective musical experiences, both on stage and

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Speaker 2: in the studio, happen when I'm aware of the container

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Speaker 2: that I'm in, that the system that I'm in, and

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Speaker 2: then I'm able to remember that feeling of play, which

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Speaker 2: is the thing.

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Speaker 3: That underlies everything.

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Speaker 2: And you know, when we talk about musicians working, we

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Speaker 2: do say the word play and that includes work.

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Speaker 3: You know, we play for a living.

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Speaker 2: But I actually think that word is important and profound,

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Speaker 2: and I think that the more people right now across

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Speaker 2: different disciplines who feel comfortable and like they have permission

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Speaker 2: to play, I think those people are actually going to

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Speaker 2: be the sort of pioneers in this strange moment in time,

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Speaker 2: we're trying to fashion new ways of thinking and being.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that you've become known for is

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Speaker 1: your involved or the audience involvement in your performances and

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Speaker 1: in your shows. We've seen you, you know, turning entire

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Speaker 1: audiences into choirs, groups of people who perhaps wouldn't imagine

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Speaker 1: that they necessarily had a performing or musical bone in

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Speaker 1: their body beyond just being the you know, the recipient

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Speaker 1: of beautiful noise. And yet I wonder to what extent

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Speaker 1: do you? And there may be an expectation we're going

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Speaker 1: to see Jacob Pollia, he's going to We're going to

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Speaker 1: do you ever have expectation of an audience? It's because

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Speaker 1: you've managed to fashion a real reciprocity.

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Speaker 3: It would seem.

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Speaker 2: As Yes, I'm more grateful for that than almost anything

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Speaker 2: I can say. You know, I think I don't think

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Speaker 2: I walk on stage with an agenda. I can honestly

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Speaker 2: say that I don't. I don't want to change anyone's

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Speaker 2: mind or convince anybody of anything. I'd like to bring

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Speaker 2: them into the present moment that that's my job. And

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Speaker 2: I think the only expectation is that.

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Speaker 3: They will meet me there.

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Speaker 2: And I think if they do, I have total faith

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Speaker 2: and belief that they have all the knowledge and intuition

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Speaker 2: require to to participate. You know, I think the way

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Speaker 2: that the audience choir kind of works is that it

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Speaker 2: relies only on trust and also what people already know.

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Speaker 2: You don't need to be an expert. You know, you

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Speaker 2: don't need any qualifications to be a good listener, right.

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Speaker 2: I think that's that's a nice way of saying that

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Speaker 2: the foundation begins there. And if as long as we've

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Speaker 2: listened and observed, you know, listen to and observe the world,

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Speaker 2: I think we have we have an understanding of how

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Speaker 2: music works. Because music is so simple that it's heart,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's it's built out of the fundamental building

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Speaker 2: blocks of life. So so yeah, my job on stage

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Speaker 2: is to is to is to hold them lightly again

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Speaker 2: and to try and create the conditions where they feel

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Speaker 2: enthusiastic to yeah, to bring themselves to the fore. And

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Speaker 2: you know, some of the most meaningful musical experiences have

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Speaker 2: happened with the audiences.

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Speaker 3: For me, it's it's just one of those funny things.

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Speaker 2: But there is that reciprocity that happens when when I

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Speaker 2: essentially give give give mass permission, say you're welcome, You're

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Speaker 2: welcome to be a part of this thing, and audences

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Speaker 2: often will drive the gig in a particular direction that

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Speaker 2: I'm not foreseeing. And my job is to say yes, yes,

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Speaker 2: and let's go there, rather than again hold you tightly

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Speaker 2: to something this is my plan, you know, I don't.

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Speaker 3: I don't really have a plan when I perform solo.

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Speaker 2: I usually bring a few songs on stage in my

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Speaker 2: head that I would like to play, but often we'll

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Speaker 2: play things I did plan to play, or will improvide

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Speaker 2: directions of travel, and some of that is dictated by

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Speaker 2: the audience themselves. So there is that sense I hope

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Speaker 2: that they feel very much invited and included in not

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Speaker 2: just the sing a long moments, but the whole the

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Speaker 2: whole direction of the of the show.

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Speaker 1: It's so interesting to me that you say that, because

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Speaker 1: as I'm listening to you talking, I'm thinking one of

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Speaker 1: my favorite sort of clips is of you and Tory

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Speaker 1: Kelly sitting I don't know if it's in her studio

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Speaker 1: or yours, and you're doing Bridge over Troubled Water and

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Speaker 1: you're literally known by note going through the riff or

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Speaker 1: the run, and I'm you know, my mind is blown,

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Speaker 1: and it seems I don't want to say terribly prescriptive,

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Speaker 1: but there's a definite sound that you're trying to you want,

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Speaker 1: you know, to bring from Tory, and yet exactly what

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Speaker 1: you've just said there is it's the freedom of music,

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Speaker 1: which is which is strangely contrasting. But I understand exactly

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Speaker 1: what you mean. To what extent are you also coming

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Speaker 1: as audience member to Cape Town, Jacob very much?

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Speaker 2: So, I would say, I would say in two ways.

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Speaker 2: One one that I'm coming as as a long time

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Speaker 2: admirer of of of the whole culture that exists there

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Speaker 2: and the people that have come out of there.

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Speaker 3: And so I'm I'm coming.

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Speaker 2: As a as a fresh faced audience member to the

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Speaker 2: wild circus and the and the performance that is, you know,

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Speaker 2: the ancient history of that beautiful place. I also come

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Speaker 2: as anous member to my own show actually, and it's

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Speaker 2: a funny thing to say, but I don't know what's

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Speaker 2: going to happen. I'm the audience to the audience, and

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Speaker 2: you know, I often it's funny. I often feel like

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Speaker 2: like an audience member to to to things I make

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Speaker 2: because I don't know what's going to come out. And

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Speaker 2: and there's this funny thing we creatives have, which is

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Speaker 2: this relationship with ourselves. But it's with like a more

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Speaker 2: irrational part of ourselves. And when we step into a

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Speaker 2: process of creating, we're trying to sort of court or

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Speaker 2: or meet that that more irrational, more more sort of natural,

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Speaker 2: unkempt version of ourselves. And and the first step there

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Speaker 2: is to always be interested. You know, well, I wonder what.

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Speaker 2: I wonder what this person has to say today. I

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Speaker 2: wonder what you know on what's going to come out.

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Speaker 3: Of And that to me, I think in a in

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Speaker 3: a in a in a in.

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Speaker 2: A spectful ways is in a way being an audience

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Speaker 2: member saying well, I'm I'm here to bear witness. And

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Speaker 2: then when I can step in and you know, cultivate

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Speaker 2: a certain thing or bring a certain color out, or

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Speaker 2: be you know, specific in this way, I will. But

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Speaker 2: I think it's a similar process, you know, I experience

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Speaker 2: with Tory or with collaborator, or with an audience, or

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Speaker 2: with myself in a creative situation or a live situation.

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Speaker 2: In that I my job is not to know what's

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Speaker 2: going to happen. And I don't know what Cape Town

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Speaker 2: holds for me, But my job is to show up

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Speaker 2: and make myself available and bring myself to the to

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Speaker 2: the table, to the table mountain and really pull whatever

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Speaker 2: inspiration in magic there is to be found out.

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Speaker 1: Well, we cannot wait to share sound and sense and

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Speaker 1: sunshine hopefully with you. It's going to be marvelous. We

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Speaker 1: really are excited to have you in safe travels and

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Speaker 1: we'll see you when you get here.

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Speaker 3: See you very soon. Thank you ever so much. Thanks.

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Speaker 1: That was my conversation with Jacob Collier, who is coming

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Speaker 1: to town. Barry don't go anyway, who is coming to

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Speaker 1: town this week and he's going to be headlining the

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Speaker 1: Cape Town International Jazz Festival. I've got I've got a

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Speaker 1: media pass for that, I know, I know, yeah, I have,

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Speaker 1: And I'm going to go and see Jacob Collier because

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Speaker 1: he is remarkable and I absolutely love that interview. I

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Speaker 1: tell you what I've interviewed over the many, many years,

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Speaker 1: an awful lot of people, and some very very talented

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Speaker 1: people and very high profile people, and I have to

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Speaker 1: say that in the main the more talented and the

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Speaker 1: more high profile, the nicer actually, And he was so humble,

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Speaker 1: and he was speaking to me from the same bedroom

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Speaker 1: in his parents' house that he writes and produces and

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Speaker 1: has produced all of his Grammy Award winning albums and things.

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Speaker 1: He was an absolute delight