1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:05,680 Speaker 1: The relatively new IOC boss, Kirsty Coventry of Zimbabwe, has 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 1: announced that transgender athletes will be banned from competing in 3 00:00:11,360 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 1: women's events at the Olympic Games, with a policy taking 4 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:19,480 Speaker 1: effect from the twenty twenty eight LA Olympics, and this 5 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: will have mandatory genetic testing for all athletes entering women's categories. 6 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: Doctor Ross Tucker is somebody we often turned to with 7 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: topics like this. Ross, Hello, John, I think it's been coming. 8 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. The IOC's position on this has looked increasingly 9 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 2: shaky and ultimately untenable over the last five or six years. 10 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 2: They were becoming more and more isolated in being the 11 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 2: only sports body that didn't have a policy like this, 12 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 2: and so they've responded and they've actually delivered. To give 13 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 2: credit words to you. I think it's the best, strongest, 14 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 2: most direct policy that I've seen so far on this issue. 15 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: What makes it so. 16 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 2: Well, we're going to quivocate. You know, the policy in 17 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,919 Speaker 2: twenty twenty one, which this one now replaces, was very vague. 18 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 2: It's basically delegated to all the different sports the responsibility 19 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 2: of getting their own eligibility requirements. This one's pretty direct. 20 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 2: In fact, it says in the scope of application, this 21 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 2: policy shall be adopted. So it's almost an instruction. And 22 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 2: the big thing that's been replaced is that for many, 23 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 2: many years, decades, even the IOC has been talking about 24 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 2: balancing different imperatives. In other words, they must be fairness, 25 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 2: there must be safety, and there must be inclusion, and 26 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 2: you can have a little bit of all of them. 27 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 2: Coventry yesterday in her speech of presentation, and the policy 28 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 2: makes it clear is that they've recognized now that their 29 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 2: priorities are fairness and safety and integrity of women's sports, 30 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 2: and so that the false notion of balancing it seems 31 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 2: to have gone, and they've now made a commitment to 32 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 2: fair safe sports. 33 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: False notion. I mean, it's something you and I have 34 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:01,919 Speaker 1: talked about a lot over the years, the incredible difficulty 35 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:08,359 Speaker 1: of reconciling fairness and safety with inclusivity. And now the 36 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: IOC has said, you can't reconcile them. You have to 37 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: choose which one you want to promote, and we want 38 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 1: to promote what we think is fair and safe. 39 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly for the four women's participants. And it's interesting, 40 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:24,840 Speaker 2: like there was going back to two thousand and three, 41 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 2: even as recent as maybe twenty fifteen. I think there 42 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 2: were well intentioned people at the IOC who genuinely believe 43 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 2: that you could balance all those different things and have 44 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:37,359 Speaker 2: your sort of cake and eat it too. But it's 45 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:40,799 Speaker 2: become clear from the evidence that you can't remove MEERL advantage. 46 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 2: So you can take the testosterone away, but the effects persist, 47 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,359 Speaker 2: and so it was an ungenerable position, and this policy 48 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 2: reflects acceptance of that for the first time. And now 49 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:52,360 Speaker 2: it's a question and how it's implemented. 50 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: The genetic testing, what is it going to test? How 51 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: precise is this testing. 52 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 2: There's a lot I was looking today in the social media. 53 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 2: There's a lot of misunderstanding and emotive reactions to it. 54 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 2: And I want to stress upfront that what they are 55 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 2: proposing is a two step process. The first step is 56 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 2: not a test, it's a screen. And it may sound semantic, 57 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 2: but it's quite an important point. What you do initially 58 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 2: is you do a screen for the specific gene that 59 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 2: only exists on the Y chromosome. So if you or 60 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 2: I were to be screened, let me use the right word, 61 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:28,920 Speaker 2: they would be looking for that SR gene and they 62 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 2: would find it if they tested a female, they would 63 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 2: not find it. So if the screen result is negative, 64 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 2: it means that you are female. If the screen result 65 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 2: is positive, it doesn't necessarily mean that you're disqualified from 66 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 2: a women's sport because it indicates the need for further testing. 67 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 2: So that's the point here. It's a screen for a 68 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 2: specific gene that is only found in male chromosomes, and 69 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 2: then it's followed by test for eligibility to participate. The 70 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 2: screen is very accurate, one in thousands. Maybe you'll get 71 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 2: a false positive, but pretty much guaranteed that if that 72 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 2: screen shows that you have the SOI gene, there's something 73 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 2: that you need to test in order to establish wyat there. 74 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 1: So this is wider than than just somebody who has transisioned, 75 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: because you know, I'm reading this and thinking, what about 76 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: the intersects athletes which are a different category, like Casta Semenia. 77 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: Would Casta have that gene? 78 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 2: Yes, she would have that gene? So she and other 79 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 2: athletes most recently and perhaps most controversially ever, with the 80 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 2: two boxes in Paris, particularly the Algerian calif and I 81 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 2: think without without those boxes and without this happening in boxing, 82 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 2: maybe the is doesn't get to this position it was 83 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 2: so controversial and so negative for them. But those athletes 84 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 2: have would re called differences of sex development. So they 85 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:01,600 Speaker 2: are x y chromosomes, they have the male genes. They 86 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 2: therefore produce testes instead of ovaries. The test is produce testosterone, 87 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 2: and they can use that testosterone, and so they may 88 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 2: identify and present as girls when they are born, but 89 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 2: when they reach puberty they undergo normal male developments. So yes, 90 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 2: they would have the SI screen positive. They would then 91 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 2: be as I say, it's a screen for SOY and 92 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:29,160 Speaker 2: a test for eligibility. That test would be more comprehensive. 93 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 2: You look at hormone levels, you'd look at molecular mutations 94 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 2: in the genes, for instance, and based on the results 95 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 2: of that more comprehensive testing, you would decide is this 96 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:41,039 Speaker 2: athlete eligible or not. In the case of Soemenia and 97 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:44,039 Speaker 2: califh we know the condition they would not be eligible. 98 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 2: There are other conditions that would still be eligible, such 99 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 2: as the one and it's explicitly mentioned quite a lot 100 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 2: actually in the ICE's policy is called complete androgen insensitivity syndrome. 101 00:05:58,200 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 2: So what happens here again is you've got an individ 102 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 2: or whose chromosomes are xy, so they have the genetic 103 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 2: code for male developments. They produce testes testosterone, but then 104 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 2: because of a mutation in the receptors that basically allow 105 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,840 Speaker 2: testosterone to do its work, they can't use it. And 106 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 2: that exists on a spectrum. Some people are only minimally affected, 107 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,359 Speaker 2: so they get most of the benefit of testosterone. But 108 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 2: the other end of the spectrum is a person who 109 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 2: is completely en sensitius, so they will have male levels 110 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 2: of testosterone but cannot use it at all. That's a 111 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 2: person who would not experience male developments, and the IOC 112 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 2: has specifically said that this is an exception with a 113 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 2: diagnosis of CIS that do not benefit from the anabolic 114 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 2: and performance enhancing effects of testosterone, and they would be 115 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 2: cleared to compete despite the positive SII screen. 116 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 1: In the rest of the sporting world, I mean are 117 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 1: there because just about every sport is an Olympic sport. 118 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:04,359 Speaker 1: So does this decision by the IOC mean that just 119 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: about every sport is compelled to follow the IOC's precepts. 120 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 2: They are, and it's actually explicitly stated I mentioned earlier. 121 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 2: It's quite a strong direct one. So in the scope 122 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 2: of application section literally says, and I'm reading this, the 123 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 2: policy shall be adopted, and that's very much an instruction. 124 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 2: The word shall by international federations and other sports governing 125 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 2: bodies such as National Olympic Committee, so that prefers, for instance, 126 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 2: to sascock, our Olympic Committee, national federations so that refers 127 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 2: to athletics South Africa, even SA rugby. And so one 128 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 2: of the things that's quite interesting is that they've effectively 129 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 2: instructed all their member federations and the national government bodies 130 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 2: to apply this policy. Whether they can enforce that to 131 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 2: another question. So let's say, for example, US rowing, and 132 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 2: I'm picking on them, just as the first port came 133 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 2: to mind. They may say that in a rowing regatta 134 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 2: in the United States, not an Olympic sanction events, they 135 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 2: don't mind who competes in women's growing, So it could 136 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 2: still stay messy. There's no guarantee that this policy will 137 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 2: cause everyone to fall in line, but the IOC's intention 138 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 2: is for them to do that. 139 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 1: But most sporting federations have seemed to be moving to 140 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 1: something like this. You know, I don't keep track of 141 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: exactly what each sporting federation's attitude is to trans women, 142 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: but the move has been in this direction pretty much 143 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 1: across the sporting world. I think, yeah, you're right. 144 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 2: If we go back twenty twenty. At the end of 145 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 2: the year, world rugby was the first Olympic sport. Powerlifting 146 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 2: had done something like it before the year after all 147 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 2: the quatics that means swimming, then came athletics, then came cycling. 148 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 2: UK sport as a collective have all said similar things 149 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 2: to this, and then boxing last year became the first 150 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:00,559 Speaker 2: sport to say that they were going to back this 151 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 2: SI screen test process, and World Athletics subsequently said they 152 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 2: did it also, and in fact that last year's World 153 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 2: Athletics Championships in Tokyo, World Athletics did for the first 154 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 2: time mass screening of all the female entrants in the sports. 155 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 2: So that's why the ISIC were looking increasingly isolated, is 156 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 2: that they're big three sports, you know, swimming, cycling, athletics, 157 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,319 Speaker 2: there are flags of sports at the Olympics. Plus rugby 158 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 2: had all broken away from their policy, and if he 159 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 2: were looking like the sort of the holdouts. 160 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: And yeah, I guess there's not going to be too 161 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 1: much testing and screening. Well, I mean there will be 162 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:44,319 Speaker 1: universal screening because I mean, if you're Katie Hodgkinson and 163 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,679 Speaker 1: extremely well known, you will be screened because that is 164 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 1: the policy. But I can't imagine that there will be 165 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 1: too many trance women or women who know that they 166 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: are DSD who will be trying to enter because they 167 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: will understand that the screen meaning plus potential testing thereafter, 168 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 1: will eliminate them. So why go, Why put yourself through 169 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: that potentially humiliating, an incredibly embarrassing process. 170 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 2: That's right, And it's almost the existence or the introduction 171 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 2: of the screen test is now a disincentible or barrier 172 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 2: to entry. In the first instance, it will still catch 173 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 2: a few. I mean, there were screening done in the 174 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 2: nineteen nineties in Atlanta, for instance, and I think from 175 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 2: memory there were eight athletes who entered women's sports in 176 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 2: the Atlanta Olympics who were identified through the screens that 177 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 2: were done back then, out of three odd thousand I 178 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 2: think it was. So it's a sort of one in 179 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 2: four hundred, one in five hundred. I expect that now 180 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 2: it will be lower than that. So we're probably looking 181 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 2: at screening five hundred to one thousand people before you 182 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 2: find a case an SOI positive, and so I think 183 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 2: it takes a significant step forward in terms of ensuring 184 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 2: that women's sports has that integrity. Point on Keey Hodgkinson 185 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 2: is because she competed in Tokyo last year, she's already 186 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 2: been screened. And this is the point, is that that 187 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 2: screen is a once and a lifetime screen because once 188 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 2: it's negative, you are effectively approved for the rest of 189 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 2: your life. Your sex is not going to change after that. 190 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 2: So initially it's going to be quite a burden on 191 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 2: all the sports because they've got to screen everyone for 192 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 2: the first time. But once it's been done once, then 193 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 2: you only need to screen new people as they come in. 194 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:23,679 Speaker 2: And who you screen at what level? Juniors, Global championships 195 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 2: only as opposed to locally. You know, does SA rugby 196 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 2: screen provincial level players or do they only screen the 197 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 2: Springbok woman. Those are questions that still need to be answered, 198 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 2: but it'll be a there might be conceiving problems, but 199 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:38,679 Speaker 2: once it's done for the first time, it should run 200 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 2: much more smoothly. 201 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 1: Doctor Ross Tucker, Independent Sports Scientists, thank you very very 202 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: much for talking to us this afternoon.