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Speaker 1: Ten forty three.

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Speaker 2: You're listening to Views and News with me, Sarah Jane

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Speaker 2: Maquila King.

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Speaker 1: This is Keith Talk Talk all right.

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Speaker 2: Imagine if the people who've actually lived through the justice

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Speaker 2: system weren't just part of the conversation but leading it

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Speaker 2: this month right here in Cape Town. In fact, next week,

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Speaker 2: that's exactly what's happening. A world first global consulting agency,

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Speaker 2: which is made up entirely of formally incarcerated people, is

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Speaker 2: launching in partnership with the UN. It's called the Global

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Speaker 2: Freedom Consulting Agency, and it's aiming to reshape how the

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Speaker 2: world thinks about justice, safety and I suppose really second chances.

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Speaker 2: And it's a groundbreaking gathering bringing together voices from dozens

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Speaker 2: of countries, policymakers, academics, activists to rethink what justice, safety

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Speaker 2: and true reform can really look like. And joining me

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Speaker 2: on the line this morning is doctor Bazdareisinger, who's the

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Speaker 2: founder and executive director of the Incarceration Nations Network, a

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Speaker 2: global initiative working across dozens of countries to rethink prison

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Speaker 2: systems and promote smarter approaches to justice. Fantastic to have

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Speaker 2: you with us, and thanks very much. Indeed for joining

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Speaker 2: us us. Thanks welcome, thank you, thank you for having me,

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Speaker 2: for listeners hearing this for the first time, maybe you

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Speaker 2: could give us a background to what the Incarceration Nations

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Speaker 2: network is and essentially the problem that you're trying to

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Speaker 2: solve globally.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely so, the problem that we're trying to solve globally

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Speaker 3: is really that we keep relying on this archaic system

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Speaker 3: of justice and expected to bring us the safe communities

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Speaker 3: that we long for, which is the system of mass incarceration.

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Speaker 3: And what we do as a global network, we represent

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Speaker 3: one hundred and thirty four partner organizations in more than

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Speaker 3: four dozen countries around the world who are committed to

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Speaker 3: smarter justice, thinking beyond prisons and where they do exist,

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Speaker 3: to making them far more effective than they are now.

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Speaker 3: So our partner organizations work in the space of reintegration,

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Speaker 3: of legal reform, of access to higher education, and prisons,

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Speaker 3: of restorative justice, so thinking beyond prisons in order to

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Speaker 3: build safer communities around the world and to share smarter

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Speaker 3: justice practices again as opposed to relying on the same old,

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Speaker 3: same old approaches which are not working, which are not

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Speaker 3: making us safer and not getting us the equitable communities

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Speaker 3: that we desire.

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Speaker 2: What do you see as being the main issues with

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Speaker 2: the current the current modalities that we see throughout the

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Speaker 2: world that really we sort of we inherited from from America,

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Speaker 2: if I'm not wrong.

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Speaker 1: Yes, well it's a mix.

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Speaker 3: Actually, I think initially it was colonial systems, legal systems

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Speaker 3: throughout the world. Are thinking about South Africa, the British

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Speaker 3: legal system that has been superimposed all over the world,

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Speaker 3: or the French legal system that has been super imposed.

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Speaker 1: All over the world.

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Speaker 3: And then absolutely incarceration is a practice that the United

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Speaker 3: States essentially invented based on European ideas and then superimposed

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Speaker 3: around the world as well during the colonial era. So

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Speaker 3: it's a combination of forces really that took these justice systems,

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Speaker 3: these Western approaches to justice, and then superimposed them in

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Speaker 3: context where they don't make any sense. And so what

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Speaker 3: we see around the world is a crisis that is

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Speaker 3: a legacy of colonialism, that is a legacy of copycatting

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Speaker 3: systems that don't work, of thinking that America has it

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Speaker 3: right when in fact we don't.

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Speaker 1: We have a gun byte and.

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Speaker 3: I say we because I'm from New York City, so

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Speaker 3: raised in the US and I've seen this firsthand.

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Speaker 1: We have a crisis of justice.

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Speaker 3: In the US, and there's still a notion that it's

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Speaker 3: the best way, when in fact it isn't. It's not

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Speaker 3: making us say for the US has been for years

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Speaker 3: the largest mass incarcerator, but we still have a gun

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Speaker 3: violence crisis, so clearly it's not working.

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Speaker 2: This new consulting agency. What makes it different, I suppose,

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Speaker 2: radically different from exactly what you're speaking about, from and

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Speaker 2: from traditional policy. Where does it move the conversation.

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Speaker 3: To It represents the voices, the wisdom, the experience of

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Speaker 3: those who have actually been in.

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Speaker 1: The system themselves.

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Speaker 3: So we are the world's first consulting agency of formerly

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Speaker 3: incarcerated leaders from around the world, thirty four consultants from

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Speaker 3: nineteen countries, all of whom we've been building a relationship

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Speaker 3: with for the last several years. So they're known entities

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Speaker 3: to us. They're people we've come to know, come to

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Speaker 3: work with, collaborate with their people from across working across borders,

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Speaker 3: to take best practices from Argentina and think about how

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Speaker 3: they're relevant in.

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Speaker 1: South Africa, for instance.

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Speaker 3: So this is really the world's first agency of its kind,

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Speaker 3: and it represents people who have the wisdom of lived experience,

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Speaker 3: but also the experience of doing this work in the world,

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Speaker 3: whether it's in the space of reintegration, restorative justice, of education,

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Speaker 3: in the context of prisons, of legal change and legal empowerment.

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Speaker 3: So we're really excited to see them come in with

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Speaker 3: innovative approaches. We often talk about smart on crime instead

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Speaker 3: of the tough on crime that gets sold to the people,

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Speaker 3: especially one selection. So we're looking at innovation as opposed

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Speaker 3: to doing things the old way.

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Speaker 1: Why has no one done this before? Both a good question.

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Speaker 1: I think there's a notion there's.

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Speaker 3: So much stigma against against people we've experienced incarceration. There's

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Speaker 3: a notion that you know, the quote unquote experts, whether

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Speaker 3: it's the experts in government or in academia who studied,

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Speaker 3: have all the answers as opposed to those who have

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Speaker 3: lived it. And the beautiful thing is that our consultants

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Speaker 3: have both. Many of them have earned degrees through esteemed institution,

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Speaker 3: some have plenty of not as well, but we really

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Speaker 3: highlight their lived experience as the thing that we need

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Speaker 3: to listen to most.

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Speaker 2: If you're just joining us this morning, welcome, good to

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Speaker 2: have you with us. We're talking this morning to Dr Bastreisinger,

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Speaker 2: who is the founder and executive director of the Incarceration

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Speaker 2: Nation's Incarceration Nations Network, and we're talking ahead of the

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Speaker 2: launch of the world's first consulting agency of formally incarcerated

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Speaker 2: leaders from around the world. It's happening here in Cape

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Speaker 2: Town next week. As I said, made up entirely of

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Speaker 2: formally incarcerated leaders, bringing together voices from twenty five countries, policymakers, academics,

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Speaker 2: activists to really rethink what justice and reform can look like.

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Speaker 2: Can you speak a little bit bas to the scope

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Speaker 2: of the work that will be carried out by the agency.

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Speaker 2: What are the areas it's going to address. I touched

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Speaker 2: on it a few there more specifically, perhaps.

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Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely so.

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Speaker 3: We have launched our website which and if folks want

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Speaker 3: to learn more about the before consultants, which is Global

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Speaker 3: Freedom Consulting dot org. And on there you can find

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Speaker 3: the bios of our thirty four consultants the countries they

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Speaker 3: come from. But just to give an example of some

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Speaker 3: of our current projects, I mentioned Legal Empowerment. One of

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Speaker 3: our consultants, Jody Polk, who is from the US founded

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Speaker 3: something called the Jailhouse Lawyers Initiative, where that is offering

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Speaker 3: essentially people in prison who have studied the law, who

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Speaker 3: know the law, giving them resources and access to hubs

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Speaker 3: where they can utilize their knowledge to apply for whether

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Speaker 3: it's applying bail applications for people on the inside looking

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Speaker 3: at their cases. Legal empowerment is such important work, not

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Speaker 3: only in the US but globally.

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Speaker 1: Are South One of.

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Speaker 3: Our South Africa consultants, Awande, Yes, he does incredible work

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Speaker 3: with the People's Legal Center, which is offering, as the

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Speaker 3: name of the organization implies, offering empowerment legal knowledge to

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Speaker 3: communities that are so often far from this knowledge, as

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Speaker 3: well as people in prison who have studied the law

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Speaker 3: as Jodi does. Jody and Awande are working closely together

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Speaker 3: alongside some of our other consultants in countries like Malawi, Uganda, Brazil.

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Speaker 3: All of these are our consultants with legal expertise who

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Speaker 3: studied the law in prison, may have gone on to

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Speaker 3: get official law degrees as Awande did from UNISA, but

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Speaker 3: really whose knowledge of the law comes from both studying

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Speaker 3: and personal experience, and they're working to empower those who

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Speaker 3: have experienced legal systems to improve it, to work past

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Speaker 3: this again, these colonial archaic systems. So that's one example

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Speaker 3: of a collaboration and an area of expertise that our

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Speaker 3: consultants have. Whether it's in Malawe, whether it's in Brazil,

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Speaker 3: whether South Africa or the US.

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Speaker 2: You talk about lived experience as expertise. I wonder about

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Speaker 2: what changes, what in the conversation changes when people who've

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Speaker 2: been incarcerated are actually advising governments.

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Speaker 4: What do you hope I will say, yeah, I would

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Speaker 4: say everything changes because there is a real understanding of

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Speaker 4: I mean even just to give a very concrete example,

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Speaker 4: if somebody is working to improve offerings inside a prison,

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Speaker 4: improve programs.

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Speaker 3: Right, we talk about you know, whether it's educational programmings,

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Speaker 3: vocational training on the inside, there is a knowledge if

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Speaker 3: you have been in prison and partaken in these you

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Speaker 3: know in these programs, then you know what works and

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Speaker 3: what doesn't. You know what needs to be in a

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Speaker 3: classroom and what doesn't. You know that there needs to

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Speaker 3: be a classroom in a prison. You know why it's

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Speaker 3: important to build libraries. You know what kinds of teachers

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Speaker 3: and educators who are working on the inside are most effective.

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Speaker 3: That is a kind of knowledge that you're not going

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Speaker 3: to have access to if you haven't been in prison,

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Speaker 3: and that includes me. I am not formally incarcerated, and

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Speaker 3: while I have been working around the world in prisons

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Speaker 3: and in justice systems for several decades, there's a lack

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Speaker 3: of knowledge that I have as on account of that.

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Speaker 3: And I will approach our consultants and say, hey, we're

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Speaker 3: building a prison university partnership here in South Africa.

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Speaker 1: What do we need to do.

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Speaker 3: In order to make it most effective? So there are

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Speaker 3: so many concrete things that they will they will know,

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Speaker 3: and they will advise on. In addition, I think the

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Speaker 3: very existence of this agency and these voices works to

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Speaker 3: destigmatize some of the most stigmatized people in the world.

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Speaker 1: When people come.

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Speaker 3: Out of prison, they are discriminated against legally and socially.

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Speaker 1: So both formal discrimination in.

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Speaker 3: Terms of you're not allowed to apply for this job,

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Speaker 3: you're not allowed to live in this kind of housing.

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Speaker 3: These are legal barriers, and I often say we discriminate

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Speaker 3: against people who have been in prison legally in ways

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Speaker 3: that we're not allowed to legally do. When it comes

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Speaker 3: to things like gender or race or sexual orientation. We

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Speaker 3: allow for that and that is again serving to make

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Speaker 3: us all less safe because when people come out of prison,

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Speaker 3: cannot integrate into society, can't get jobs, can't get housing,

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Speaker 3: are not accepted by the communities that they're returning to. Well,

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Speaker 3: that's a recipe for crime. That is a recipe for

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Speaker 3: social exclusion, which is the basis of crime. And so

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Speaker 3: it's really important to have these voices out there, not

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Speaker 3: only speaking, but leading, because it works to destigmatize the

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Speaker 3: most stigmatized community on earth, and that again.

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Speaker 1: In turn comes serves to benefit us all.

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Speaker 3: So our consultants are also available for speaking gigs and

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Speaker 3: engagements with whether it's corporates, whether it's government. They need

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Speaker 3: to speak to why corporates should hire people even if

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Speaker 3: they have convictions, because they're going to be committed to

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Speaker 3: that job, because they're going to be you know, to

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Speaker 3: understand what it is to not have that job.

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Speaker 1: So all of these are.

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Speaker 3: Things that GF Consulting will be engaging with in the world.

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Speaker 1: Buzz.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting that you mentioned it, the element of destigmatization,

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Speaker 2: but I wonder to what extent how far that is

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Speaker 2: true is there not? I wonder whether people might look

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Speaker 2: at the consultants and believe them to be the exception

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Speaker 2: to the rule.

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Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean?

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Speaker 3: Yes, I experience that all the time there's a notion

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Speaker 3: that these are the special ones. And while I mean

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Speaker 3: certainly they you know, they are special. They have not

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Speaker 3: only the lived experience, but again the work experience.

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Speaker 1: Some of them work in government.

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Speaker 3: I should mention two of our consultants are part of

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Speaker 3: the City of Buenos Airis government in Argentina. So we

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Speaker 3: applaud the City of Buenos Airis that recognizes that these

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Speaker 3: are you know, they have an area of expertise that

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Speaker 3: is vital, but they are not the exception.

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Speaker 1: I've been doing this.

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Speaker 3: Work, as I mentioned, for for quite some time in

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Speaker 3: the world, and I meet people all over the world

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Speaker 3: who are doing phenomenal work or who could be if

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Speaker 3: they were given the opportunity. You know, the stigma makes

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Speaker 3: it such that access to education, opportunities, jobs, social circles.

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Speaker 1: There is such a barrier there and so.

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Speaker 3: There would be I think even more expertise coming from

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Speaker 3: this space if the opportunities were there. So with GF Consulting,

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Speaker 3: we're fighting not only for our consultants, but for all

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Speaker 3: of the doors that they are going to open for

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Speaker 3: others who are coming out of prisons, who are currently

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Speaker 3: in prison. Our community also includes people who are currently

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Speaker 3: in prison who are doing the work from the inside

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Speaker 3: as best as possible, who are studying with whether it's

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Speaker 3: UNISA or a program in the US or in Italy,

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Speaker 3: who are really being incubated right now to come out

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Speaker 3: of prison and be leaders. So it's our work to

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Speaker 3: open doors, not only to support the current consultants and

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Speaker 3: their communities.

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Speaker 2: Globalfreedomconsulting dot org folks is where you'll find more information.

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Speaker 1: Our guests at this morning has been do at whose

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Speaker 1: uh

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Speaker 2: PhD well first book I'm dying to get hold of

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Speaker 2: on an unrelated topic best thanks very much indeed for

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Speaker 2: joining us.