1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,360 Speaker 1: I was reading something on the BBC about research which 2 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:08,960 Speaker 1: supposedly rewrites the story of when dogs became man's best friend. 3 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: And the research is based upon a tiny jawbone discovered 4 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 1: in something called Goff's Cave in the County of Summerset, 5 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:24,440 Speaker 1: and that tiny jawbone apparently tells us that humans and 6 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: dogs were already living closely together fifteen thousand years ago, 7 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 1: and that is thousands of years earlier than previously thought. 8 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: Somebody who has a keen interest in these kinds of 9 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:38,520 Speaker 1: things is Professor Sandra Swart, who is professor and Chair 10 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 1: of the Department of History at Stellenbosch University. Sandra, A 11 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: very good afternoon to you. 12 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 2: Hi, Thanks for having me on your show. 13 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:52,560 Speaker 1: Always a pleasure. How does a tiny jawbone rewrite history? 14 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: I mean, what about that jawbone and the understanding and 15 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: analysis of it leads to these kinds of conclusions. 16 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 2: It's a fascinating story. The jawbone itself is a kind 17 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 2: of Rosetta stone. You're remember, in about eighteen twenty two 18 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 2: or some such date, they discovered the Rosetta stone that 19 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 2: had not only hieroglyphs but also Greek writing, and so 20 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 2: they were able for the first time to interpret the hieroglyphs. 21 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 2: It's the exact same deal with the jawbone. It's just 22 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 2: a little tiny jawbone that's been locked away in a 23 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 2: drawer for long, and it's unto itself, doesn't tell us 24 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 2: all that much, but it unlocks, like the Rosetta Stone, 25 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 2: a bigger understanding of how long dog human interaction and 26 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 2: dog evolution can be pushed back into time. And it 27 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 2: looks like at least five thousand years longer than we 28 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 2: thought because it's very clearly a dog, and so scientists 29 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 2: fail to use its DNA to look at other remnants 30 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 2: of canids that could have maybe been wolves, but we 31 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 2: now know using the DNA analysis, were dogs, and that 32 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 2: takes us out of some of it to places like 33 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 2: Turkey where we can push it back even further for 34 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 2: almost sixteen thousand years. 35 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 1: And dogs are by definition domesticated, So if we say 36 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: this is a dog, that means dogs were domesticated then, 37 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: because otherwise they would have been wolves. 38 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 2: Well, look, it's trickier than that, although you know historians 39 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 2: always say it's trickier than that. But there isn't a 40 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 2: sharp dividing line between the gray wolf and the first 41 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 2: domestic dogs. And that is because well, I mean, you know, 42 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 2: there's no such thing as a missing link. Is it's 43 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 2: a process that takes place in various places over many, 44 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 2: many generations, and so evolution is not a sharp divide 45 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 2: to the dog. It's a very slow, continuous progression to 46 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 2: having more dog like features with a short muzzle, the 47 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 2: floppy years. And really it's very interesting. It's a kind 48 00:02:57,320 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 2: of self taming or self domestication. 49 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: And the presence of dogs buried alongside humans. I mean, 50 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: that wouldn't happen if there were not an emotional bond 51 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: between canid and human. 52 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 2: Well exactly, so why I say self domestication. It's almost 53 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 2: certain that the gray wolf used to follow transhumans mobile groups, 54 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 2: follow these ice age camps of people, and what they 55 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 2: would do is they would eat the waste left by 56 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 2: the people. But over time they're self selected for the 57 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 2: ones who didn't have a fear of the news of 58 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 2: no neophobia, and they're also selected to those who are 59 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 2: sort of friendlier with people. The ones who were very 60 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 2: very dangerous were killed by people and also didn't want 61 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 2: to associate with people. So over time they're kind of 62 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 2: self domesticated, and that probably after a long period of 63 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 2: kind of coevolution, that humans were able to bring them 64 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 2: into the human group. But but at stage they were 65 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 2: able to be almost part of the human group because 66 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 2: they had monotonous trays. They were like puppies, and puppies 67 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 2: will accept anyone as your family. So they're able to 68 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 2: fit into the human family and forge these bonds you 69 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 2: talk of that we can see in the burials. 70 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: Because I mean writing was quite a few thousand years 71 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: after this. So so we we you know, we have 72 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 1: only the bones and the press where the bones are 73 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: in relation to human bones, and so we don't have 74 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: we don't have a Rosetta stone, we don't have a hieroglyph. 75 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:36,160 Speaker 1: We have something more complicated than that. 76 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 2: It's well, yeah, when you're doing more than human history 77 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 2: or multi species history, it's always going to be trickier. 78 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 2: But well, we've got the jawbone, but we've got more 79 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 2: than that. We've also got evidence looking at bone collagen 80 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 2: and amino acids that the dogs were eating the same 81 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 2: kind of things as the people. Now, it may be 82 00:04:57,600 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 2: that these were just worlves following the group and their 83 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 2: were eating their remnants, but that seems to be unlikely 84 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 2: they had so much of an identical diet the human 85 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 2: groups they were following in Turkey, for example, the dogs 86 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 2: you can tell we're eating fish. Now, there's no way 87 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,239 Speaker 2: they could have caught the fish. They were obviously following 88 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 2: the same omnivorous diet as the humans they were living with. 89 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 2: So that sort of evidence really suggests close living. 90 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: And as Undra. The are you Sandra Sundra? I'm sorry, 91 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 1: I'm not sure. 92 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 2: It's actually Sundra. Tundra. 93 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:40,799 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Sundra like tundra and cats A lot later 94 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: cats domesticated, and you know, perhaps they haven't become as 95 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 1: close to us as dogs are. Generally. I have cat 96 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: loving friends who get very very cross when I say 97 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 1: their cats only see them as a source of food 98 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:56,239 Speaker 1: and warmth and not as a source of emotional bonding. 99 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: But the cats were domesticated a lot later than dogs, 100 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: I believe. Why would that be. 101 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 2: Oh much much later? In fact, I think it was PG. 102 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 2: Woodhouse who said they were never domesticated at all and 103 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 2: never got over the fact that the ancient Egyptians worshiped 104 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 2: them as gods. But remember dogs were the first to 105 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 2: be domesticated. And I think it is because of this 106 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:23,479 Speaker 2: process of self domestication, because at this point, with transhuman 107 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 2: mobile groups moving around, there was no way to put 108 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 2: the animal that you had caught. So it was only 109 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 2: much later that animals like horses and cows and sheep 110 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 2: and goat were able to be domesticated because you had 111 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 2: somewhere to put them. You were century, you weren't moving 112 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:44,840 Speaker 2: around anymore, and it really depended a lot on you know, 113 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 2: the character, the innate character of the animal itself. Now, 114 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 2: cats probably moved in because of human you know, growing 115 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 2: of crops, and that brought mice to the settlement, and 116 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 2: that brought a steady diet to the and it was 117 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 2: probably more or less then when a similar kind of 118 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 2: self domestication happened. The friendly cats stayed, the wildcats didn't. 119 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,280 Speaker 2: But it was much later, and that only really seemed 120 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 2: her co when crop growing happened with people about ten 121 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 2: thousand years ago, but probably more recent than that. 122 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: And I just want a while you are listening to 123 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: say to people that your book The Lion's Historian what 124 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: two three years ago, Sundra is a fabulous reader. Yeah, 125 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: and it really is an absolute the fabulous read and 126 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: people miss garden. 127 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 2: Get it. 128 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: That is Professor Sundra like Tundra Swart, Professor and Chair 129 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: of the Department of History at Stellenbosch.