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Speaker 1: Well regularly on seven oh two Drive, we've spoken about

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Speaker 1: the deployment of the sa NDF too various parts of

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Speaker 1: South Africa. Last week, for instance, we were very much

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Speaker 1: focused on the Cape Flats communities like Mitchell's Plane, and

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Speaker 1: I see that the death toll in today's shootings at

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Speaker 1: Mitchell's Plane is now up to four. Three other people

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Speaker 1: have been wounded, so questions asked about whether this is

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Speaker 1: going to be effective. But there's a more worrying or

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Speaker 1: equally worrying question, I suppose that has been raised by

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Speaker 1: a study that has just been produced by the organization,

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Speaker 1: the Global Initiative against Transnational Organized Crime. They've been looking

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Speaker 1: closely at the way in which the presence of gangs

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Speaker 1: and the violence and social disruption associated with these gangs

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Speaker 1: is spreading to other areas. Soldana Bay up the west coast,

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Speaker 1: Freedenburgh also heading up towards Namibia. But Inland, I believe

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Speaker 1: and Hermanus has been had its share of problems over

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Speaker 1: the years. Other people are saying this is a phenomenon

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Speaker 1: they're seeing in other parts of the country. My next

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Speaker 1: guest is Aren Hyman. He's a senior analyst on the

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Speaker 1: Southern Africa Observatory at the Global Initiative against Transnational Organized Crime.

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Speaker 1: Very good afternoon to you, mister Hymen, and welcome, thanks

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Speaker 1: for giving us your time today. Soldana Bay obviously a

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Speaker 1: transit point and you've set it out in your report

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Speaker 1: for the global cocaine trade. But why would gangs actually

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Speaker 1: be moving to Soldana Bay? Is that because the drugs

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Speaker 1: are to some degree destined for South Africa. Why would

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Speaker 1: this lead to an increased gang presence and with a

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Speaker 1: contestation and violence.

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Speaker 2: Good afternoon, John, and good afternoon to your listeners. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so you've framed correctly in the sense that Saldana Bai

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Speaker 2: is becoming increasingly important for international cocaine trafficking syndicates. But

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Speaker 2: this is also linked to why gangs, at least at

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Speaker 2: one level, are interested in Saldana Bay. Our report that

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Speaker 2: was published last week looked at two tiers of gang

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Speaker 2: violence currently playing out in the Saldana Bay area the

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Speaker 2: West Coast area. One is the normal street gang violence

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Speaker 2: that we'll see in Cape Town that we associate with

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Speaker 2: the Cape Flat, but the second is associated with control

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Speaker 2: over the supply of cocaine and over control of the

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Speaker 2: port facilities, so secondary ports like Saldana Bay are increasingly

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Speaker 2: important for cocaine trafficking syndicates, and these syndicates have diversified

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Speaker 2: their delivery mechanisms to include the use of cape gangs

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Speaker 2: and their affiliated marine coaching contact. So as the volumes

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Speaker 2: of cocaine being trafficked through these locations increases, so does

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Speaker 2: the presence of the gangs who are exploiting the opportunities

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Speaker 2: provided to them by international syndicates. And cocaine is a

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Speaker 2: very lucrative, very valuable product, much more valuable than things

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Speaker 2: like crystal meat, just because we know it. And some

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Speaker 2: of the violence we are seeing is linked to the

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Speaker 2: control of the support and the surrounding croastal infrastructure. Whoever

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Speaker 2: controls this infrastructure can act as gatekeepers for trafficking syndicates. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: in the area.

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Speaker 1: I've read a little bit about drug syndicates and even

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Speaker 1: though the trade is global and sometimes a place can

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Speaker 1: be a transit point, but I had read somewhere and

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Speaker 1: it may I'm sure it differs from drug to drug,

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Speaker 1: Misterheim and that creating a local user population is actually

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Speaker 1: a key part of this because you build in a

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Speaker 1: whole network of people who are eyes and ears, who

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Speaker 1: have a personal user need to make sure that the

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Speaker 1: police don't disrupt this. Does that apply with cocaine as well,

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Speaker 1: given how much price here it is.

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Speaker 2: Indeed, I think there's a bit more of a pharmacological

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Speaker 2: sort of element to that, which I'm not qualified to explain.

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Speaker 2: But cocaine. For example, in our report, we talk about

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Speaker 2: how arrests for drug possession, ninety percent of the arrests

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Speaker 2: that have been sampled in the area by at least

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Speaker 2: one source shows that cocaine is well present in ninety

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Speaker 2: percent of those cases. That's at street level. Cocaine is

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Speaker 2: associated with much sort of higher socio economic tears. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's a very expensive drug to buy. But what we're

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Speaker 2: see happening in Salvana Bay is the expansion of a

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Speaker 2: market due to the local called gangs paid in cocaine

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Speaker 2: by the international trindicates. So the trafficking syndicates are paying

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Speaker 2: these guys who usually do abloon poaching for cape gangs,

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Speaker 2: They're paying them in cocaine, and the cape gangs are

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Speaker 2: now attracted naturally to this market. There's a supply of cocain,

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Speaker 2: they need to expand the user base and they need

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Speaker 2: to sell with cocain to make money.

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Speaker 1: So if I could just bring you back finally, mister Hyman,

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Speaker 1: to where I started in the deployment of the SA

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Speaker 1: and DF. I mean, I see two implications here that

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Speaker 1: raised some questions about that deployment. The one is the

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Speaker 1: flexibility of gangs that would have a commercial reason, and

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Speaker 1: I put commercial obviously in inverted commers. Then we call

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Speaker 1: it a material reason to move not very far from

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Speaker 1: the flats, particularly when the pressure is increased. But secondly,

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Speaker 1: anything we do not only brings us up against our gangs,

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Speaker 1: but brings us up against international syndicates as well. That

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Speaker 1: raises some pretty serious questions around strategy.

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Speaker 2: Now I couldn't have any better myself. It's it's that's

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Speaker 2: exactly the problem you are, Saldana. There is just a

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Speaker 2: case study you mentioned Armanas. There are other places that

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Speaker 2: we see the expansion. You've got to see it this way.

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Speaker 2: There's a huge there's huge pressure from government, not just

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Speaker 2: from government, but from other gangs, violent gangs on in

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Speaker 2: the gang environment, organized crime environment, and that pushes gangs

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Speaker 2: away from places like Cape where there is a lot

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Speaker 2: of resources, a lot of law enforcement resources, to rural areas,

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Speaker 2: secondary ports places with lower surveillance, and I can tell

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Speaker 2: you now those places do not have the experience, or

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Speaker 2: the manpower or the capabilities to tackle this problem when

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Speaker 2: it arives on their doorstep.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I mean, it's it's quite a

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Speaker 1: chilling study they've been they've done. There is a good

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Speaker 1: summary by the way of this research. Nicole McCain has

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Speaker 1: done something on the News twenty four site that was

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Speaker 1: aarn Hyman senior analyst involved at the Global Institute Initiative

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Speaker 1: against Transnational Organized Crime. They have a Southern Africa observatory

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Speaker 1: and he works with that. If you live in a

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Speaker 1: small town and you've seen gang violence, gangs growing, maybe

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Speaker 1: it's related to drugs or something else, please tell us

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Speaker 1: your story. We'd love to hear it. Oh seven two

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Speaker 1: seven two one seven two twenty nine past four