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Speaker 1: Seven. You're listening to the Best of The Money Show.

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Speaker 2: The Money Show.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to the Best Bits of the Money Show, your

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Speaker 3: weekly digest of some of the best thoughts, conversations, insights

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Speaker 3: and jokes from the show this week. If you'd like

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Speaker 3: to hear more, go to your podcast app and search

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Speaker 3: for The Money Show. As always good idea to send

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Speaker 3: it along to a friend, member of your family, someone

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Speaker 3: in your community, your local WhatsApp group who you think

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Speaker 3: would benefit from it, and obviously lots of people who

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Speaker 3: you might know who could get some benefit from listening

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Speaker 3: to parts of the show. To start, some of the

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Speaker 3: news stories that we thought were important from the week

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Speaker 3: that was. The Quasunetel provincial government has promised that depositors

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Speaker 3: at ITALA will get their money back before the end

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Speaker 3: of the year. There's a guarantee from the National Treasury

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Speaker 3: to make sure that happens. Our economy group I point

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Speaker 3: five percent in quarter three, the energy sector contracted less

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Speaker 3: the electricity being sold, the gains in mining, agriculture, trade

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Speaker 3: and household spending, and importantly there was a little bit

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Speaker 3: of an uptick in the amount of spending on infrastructure

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Speaker 3: and the US the Trump administration saying it wants to

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Speaker 3: take South Africa out of the G twenty and replace

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Speaker 3: us with Poland. We are not getting an invitation to Miami,

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Speaker 3: it seems. Tonight we bring you a mixture of stories

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Speaker 3: from the world of money from the week that has been.

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Speaker 3: This week, our shape shifter Matteo Horipe was joined by

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Speaker 3: Harry Kellen, the CEO at F and B is extensive

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Speaker 3: executive experience managing complex financial operations and guiding strategy at

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Speaker 3: some of our leading financial groups.

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Speaker 4: No, I don't think I was going to be good

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Speaker 4: enough to be a doctor, but I didn't know back

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Speaker 4: then as a youngster, didn't know that I actually did

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Speaker 4: not get into METS and outlined. So then that took

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Speaker 4: second choice was PC in that whole trajectory are doing

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Speaker 4: it And after the first year of BC disappointing many people,

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Speaker 4: but then I'm glad I changed to BACOM and no

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Speaker 4: regrets since then.

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Speaker 5: I was about to say, I mean, how many people

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Speaker 5: did you have to explain to that you were not

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Speaker 5: taking them truth?

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Speaker 4: Mainly Mum disappointing that not becoming a doctor, Dad disappointed

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Speaker 4: that I wasted a whole year of hard and cash

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Speaker 4: kind of thing. But yeah, it's more mainly the friendly pieces.

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Speaker 4: I think the friend's friend said, yeah, it was obvious

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Speaker 4: you should be doing people.

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Speaker 5: But oswell that ends well, I mean, you were the

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Speaker 5: CEO of IF today. But let's go back a little

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Speaker 5: bit to Linasia where you were born and you grew up,

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Speaker 5: what the community was like then, what type of parents

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Speaker 5: you had, and some of the discussions you had at

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Speaker 5: the dinner table that shaped the man you are tonight.

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Speaker 4: So my mom was a teacher, so she's late. So

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Speaker 4: she was a teacher, but she was a grade one,

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Speaker 4: grade two teacher, so very hands on, kind of nurturing

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Speaker 4: individual as a teacher. My father was headdressing for follow

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Speaker 4: intents and purposes, a barber working out of Fordsburgh and

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Speaker 4: that so the conversations around the table weren't necessary business

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Speaker 4: life lots of it, not necessarily this kind of discussion

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Speaker 4: at the table, Whereas now I try and make sure

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Speaker 4: that our dinner table isn't that much business either, because

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Speaker 4: life is life is multifested in the discussions around that. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: so in the community we grew up in, I mean,

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Speaker 4: it was an entry level house. It doesn't come from

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Speaker 4: a wealthy privilege. But I mean, you know, when you

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Speaker 4: look at where South Africa is and if you're coming

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Speaker 4: from an okay middle class, you privileged. So I always

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Speaker 4: see myself as coming from a privilege unsold where education

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Speaker 4: was valued and giving me the ability to educate myself.

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Speaker 4: And I think that's the biggest value that my parents

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Speaker 4: had given me, that opportunity to study. And as you

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Speaker 4: were gether as a teacher, she valued education significantly. I

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Speaker 4: mean when she was going to teacher's college. I have

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Speaker 4: an elder sister, so family was looking after my sister.

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Speaker 4: But I was like, I think I was a surprise

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Speaker 4: come along and I was. Actually I grew up my

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Speaker 4: grandparents in Devn from the age of three months or

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Speaker 4: four years, so I'm actually quite lucky because I ended

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Speaker 4: up having so many, so many people around me that

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Speaker 4: were like in my early life was like I had

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Speaker 4: like multiple moms in multiple dance because my mother was

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Speaker 4: the eldest and all her siblings were younger. So I

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Speaker 4: grew spoilt.

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Speaker 5: And as you were growing up as a spoilt young man,

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Speaker 5: as you say, were you thinking of a career in

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Speaker 5: banking at all or were you thinking of yourself in

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Speaker 5: a suit somewhere or is it something that came later

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Speaker 5: in life.

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Speaker 4: So I never saw myself banking, actually never, not in

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Speaker 4: the early days, to be honest, I think banking was

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Speaker 4: when I started articles. In the young days. I think

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Speaker 4: it was more in the community we grew up with

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Speaker 4: was if you're in the medical field, actually you've arrived.

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Speaker 4: If you're going to be an accountant or a CIA.

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Speaker 4: Even wasn't even talk about as a CI, so seen

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Speaker 4: as an accountant. It wasn't seen as a as a

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Speaker 4: as a prestigious career path kind of thing. So it

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Speaker 4: was always kind of approach of okay, you may be

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Speaker 4: a little bit clear enough to work out and you

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Speaker 4: could maybe get into becoming a doctor. And there's always

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Speaker 4: that kind of thing. So that was always at the

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Speaker 4: back of your head. That's why you choose subjects like biology,

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Speaker 4: so that business no suits actually came into minds when

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Speaker 4: I was a kid.

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Speaker 5: Let's talk about then the decision you made to move

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Speaker 5: into accounting. You then study accounting, and as you do articles,

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Speaker 5: your career starts to shape. You go through various auditing

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Speaker 5: firms are still a young person, and with banking, I

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Speaker 5: imagine as you walk in then you're walking in an

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Speaker 5: environment where there's very older colleagues, and how do you

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Speaker 5: carry yourself at that particular time and find a voice

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Speaker 5: in that group.

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Speaker 4: So I mean, yeah, one thing you got to go

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Speaker 4: is like it's always your approach and attitude. I've always

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Speaker 4: had an approach is I don't have the answer to everything.

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Speaker 4: I can be confident enough to ask the question. And

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Speaker 4: the trick is actually not asking just for the sake

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Speaker 4: of asking, asking to actually learn and listen. But I

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Speaker 4: mean I was fortunate as well to join Arthur Anderson.

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Speaker 4: It was an American culture business as an Orgin film,

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Speaker 4: but it was a small firm. It was one of

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Speaker 4: the big five back then. But in terms of its intake,

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Speaker 4: I think the Jane's big intake. I was one of

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Speaker 4: twenty first year article clerks and I think Devin came

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Speaker 4: down would make it the team. So it was a

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Speaker 4: small firm. But then you actually so you you know,

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Speaker 4: you might be one of the t versus one one hundred,

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Speaker 4: makes it a big difference. Sometimes you get noticed differently

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Speaker 4: around the piece, and yeah, you just got to learn

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Speaker 4: keep and it's the attitude of actually delivery. And because

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Speaker 4: it was an American firm, it was very harsh on output

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Speaker 4: kind of thing. It was Glover, you don't and it's

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Speaker 4: very known, pretty transparent, you know, kind of thing where

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Speaker 4: partners and managers kind of would see you as a ranking,

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Speaker 4: not official ranking, but kind of thing. And then you

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Speaker 4: get put on jobs, et cetera. So again I think

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Speaker 4: it was more luck and privilege that I got put

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Speaker 4: onto banking audits, stockbroking audits in that and that was

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Speaker 4: my start into financial services, and then financial services continued.

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Speaker 4: I went to secumbent to London just short of two

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Speaker 4: years with Arthur Anderson, and that also was great because

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Speaker 4: the things you learn is South Africa install THEOM fully

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Speaker 4: recognized that actually what we produce South Africa is very

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Speaker 4: good quality, top talent across the spectrum. That's why we

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Speaker 4: see so many doctors leaving. That's why we see so

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Speaker 4: many management teams actually being asked to immigrate etc. Around

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Speaker 4: the piece. And I mean I saw that when I

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Speaker 4: got to London, finished articles six months later, seconded in June.

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Speaker 4: You walk into the London office and because Anderson was

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Speaker 4: a worldwide, one single firm, same way of documentation, same system,

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Speaker 4: same kind of processes. So I land there on a

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Speaker 4: Saturday morning and I start working on a Monday morning,

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Speaker 4: gone to a client after the first hours of HR

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Speaker 4: doing the edmin pieces. But what you realize is actually,

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Speaker 4: you know, we might be at the bottom end of Africa,

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Speaker 4: but we could I could hold my weight with my

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Speaker 4: fellow peers that were in the UK market and actually

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Speaker 4: deal with clients because now you senior, if you can

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Speaker 4: put it that with both articles and deal with issues.

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Speaker 4: And then back then, the first job I remember was

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Speaker 4: with a client that was thinking of converting to a

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Speaker 4: banking business to getting a banking license, and it was

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Speaker 4: a debate whether you change from an advisory stock stock

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Speaker 4: broken business into a bank and Mayawa has plunked into

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Speaker 4: the team very quickly, and you sink a swim and

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Speaker 4: I swam well, I.

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Speaker 5: Think that was the general consensus. Then sink or swim,

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Speaker 5: very harsh environment. How do you deal with the culture

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Speaker 5: shocks at that particular moment. Are you rolling with the

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Speaker 5: punches or you having to step back a little bit

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Speaker 5: to just take a breather.

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Speaker 4: You actually got to be having a mindset of being adaptive.

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Speaker 4: So the thing is culture is a microcosm. So you

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Speaker 4: could be talking to a group of friends and then

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Speaker 4: let's take it. Let's say you've got a group of

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Speaker 4: friends from school. Your interactions will be different to the

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Speaker 4: group of friends that you have from varsity. That will

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Speaker 4: be different interactions to a group of friends that you

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Speaker 4: have from your first job or career, etc. And that's

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Speaker 4: what human natures is adaptive to different kind of things.

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Speaker 4: But you've got to be willing to be adaptive. You

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Speaker 4: got to be willing to say, Okay, you got to

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Speaker 4: roll with the punches. Nothing is going to be the same.

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Speaker 4: There's no constant anything. Actually it changes a constant. And

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Speaker 4: as I said, you know, I always teach people when

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Speaker 4: I when I talk to staff and I go I

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Speaker 4: have one mouth, but I have two ears. So listening

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Speaker 4: is a more powerful skill. It's two times the value

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Speaker 4: of what you say. Now, but why do you listen?

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Speaker 4: Because actually, if you're never gonna listen, you're never gonna

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Speaker 4: know what to adapt to or not learn, et cetera

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Speaker 4: around it. So, yes, Mantero, rolling with the punches. Any environment,

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Speaker 4: stable or changing or harsh, you have to be able

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Speaker 4: to be adaptive to roll with it.

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Speaker 5: I deliberately asked that question because at thirty five, you

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Speaker 5: are chief financial officer, a role. Some people would think,

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Speaker 5: even back then, is more suited for somebody who was

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Speaker 5: far older, But it was quite clear that as a

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Speaker 5: talent then for F and B, you were someone they

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Speaker 5: were willing to bank on.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I mean the CEO back then was my you're

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Speaker 4: done he was. I joined fhim in January two thousand

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Speaker 4: and five. He became CEO of F and B in

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Speaker 4: October two thousand and four, and in my first two

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Speaker 4: years as head of Group Finance for F and B,

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Speaker 4: I had lots of interactions with him. And because I

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Speaker 4: came from a corpord finance background, maybe I wasn't talking

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Speaker 4: like a traditional finance person and it was always about

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Speaker 4: what is the stories behind the numbers and not the

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Speaker 4: numbers itself. And I was when I was in finance,

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Speaker 4: even back then, I used to tell people, give me insights,

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Speaker 4: don't give me the information, give me the insights. And

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Speaker 4: it was the early part of Michael's CEO tenor so.

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Speaker 4: I was probably lucky enough to be in the right

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Speaker 4: place at the right time. And then two years later

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Speaker 4: opportunity arized and he appointed me as CFO of F

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Speaker 4: and B. And I remember questions people canning because he's saying, okay,

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Speaker 4: you're now taking over a seat where you got your

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Speaker 4: fellow peers that are much more experienced than you, much

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Speaker 4: more experience in business, let alone experience from for my

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Speaker 4: tenure in the role and home banking for that matter.

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Speaker 4: You're inheriting a team on the finance piece that have

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Speaker 4: been there longer in our business, some of them much

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Speaker 4: older in age. And how are you dealing with that?

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Speaker 4: How are you dealing with people working for you that

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Speaker 4: are from a different level. So I go, no one

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Speaker 4: works for me. I work with people, pop will work

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Speaker 4: with people, work with people. There is no command control.

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Speaker 4: Humans are not command control. People make it command control

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Speaker 4: and they make a choice around it. And and the fortunate

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Speaker 4: thing is the group FMB has a very empowered culture.

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Speaker 4: So as a as a young cerfol then I was

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Speaker 4: empowered in a role, empowered, et cetera. But also an

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Speaker 4: empowered culture doesn't mean that you left alone, and actually

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Speaker 4: if you don't, you don't survive all tough. It's actually

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Speaker 4: empowered together with we're working as a team, So it's

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Speaker 4: not it's not just empowered and says run and you're

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Speaker 4: going to sink a swim. In my previous analogy, but

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Speaker 4: actually we work together. But yeah, so the trick about

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Speaker 4: age is not relevant. And yeah, sometimes sometimes people that

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Speaker 4: are actually you're working with much more experience with you.

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Speaker 4: But that's good because then you have knowledge that you

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Speaker 4: could lean on ask that. The trick is always be

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Speaker 4: happy to ask. Most people get to the point where

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Speaker 4: if I ask this question, maybe I don't look as

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Speaker 4: clever as people think I am. Doesn't matter, doesn't matter,

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Speaker 4: it's not about clever. You've got to be able to

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Speaker 4: actually solve. Business is talking about solving things, figuring out

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Speaker 4: what customer needs are solve for customer needs. We're never

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Speaker 4: gonna ask, you're never gonna know.

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Speaker 5: You once got an award at the cfour was you

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Speaker 5: won the Compliance and Governance Award and there you talked

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Speaker 5: about leadership not being about a title or designation. What

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Speaker 5: has been your leadership style since you've taken up these

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Speaker 5: various roles.

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Speaker 4: So, no, and I've seen you sometimes young leaders getting

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Speaker 4: into a seat and they feel like they're going to

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Speaker 4: prove themselves. And I always remind people to say, the

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Speaker 4: role is yours already, Okay, so you don't have to

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Speaker 4: prove yourself in which case, actually and the triquid. Leadership

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Speaker 4: is and I luded to early on, is people are

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Speaker 4: not expecting you to have the answer to everything. Okay,

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Speaker 4: so don't assume that you've got to tell people to

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Speaker 4: do A or b et cetera. Yeah, that may be

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Speaker 4: more of a management style, but leadership is actually leading.

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Speaker 4: You're leading other managers and ultimately you're leading other leaders.

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Speaker 4: And the environment makes a difference as well. So as

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Speaker 4: I said, I think I was lucky to learn up

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Speaker 4: in first rand it's in an empowered environment. Actually that's

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Speaker 4: as much of that. And my style is actually, you know,

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Speaker 4: the saying goes, surround yourself with people more better, cleverer

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Speaker 4: than you are, agree on the direction, agree on the strategy,

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Speaker 4: and then stay out of the way. But it doesn't

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Speaker 4: mean that you're not there. It's not there that you know.

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Speaker 4: So leadership is about trust as well, So I always

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Speaker 4: tell my team I have your back, don'tstrous. Part of

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Speaker 4: business is failure. You can in people. If you're not

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Speaker 4: willing to fail, you're not willing to learn. If you're

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Speaker 4: not willing to learn, will never be innovative, innovative, you

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Speaker 4: will never change things. So it's okay to fail. Intent

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Speaker 4: matters I've never seen anyone that has an intent to fail,

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Speaker 4: because then I would say that's sabotage. So actually, any

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Speaker 4: of these failure great assist help lean in when is

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Speaker 4: required to be, but it's not expected that you've got

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Speaker 4: to do do it for them, tell them how to

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Speaker 4: do it step AO, B O C. They may be

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Speaker 4: the easy requirement. Sometimes someone comes to you and says, okay,

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Speaker 4: I'm battling with A, B and C. Then that's like

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Speaker 4: whiteboarding kind of thing. You might not know the answer,

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Speaker 4: but the conversations you toss a couple of ideas kind

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Speaker 4: of thing. But yes, I mean, the biggest thing about

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Speaker 4: leadership is actually supporting the team, making sure that But

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Speaker 4: it doesn't mean that necessarily you can't have tough conversations

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Speaker 4: being a leader. There are times that you've got to

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Speaker 4: have a pretty straight and tough conversations. And again, it's

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Speaker 4: not a tough conversation playing the person. You know, it's

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Speaker 4: always about playing the ball, So it's not and you

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Speaker 4: can be different. You can have the same conversation about

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Speaker 4: the same issue. The person walks away feeling very disengaged

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Speaker 4: and disempowered or feeling like, oh hold on, I'm being

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Speaker 4: shut on as a person or rather same conversation deal

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Speaker 4: with the issue. The person will learn from it. You

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Speaker 4: will learn from it and actually saw and it's that

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Speaker 4: attitude and approach of how you deal with it. That's

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Speaker 4: what I was saying. It must never become personal.

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Speaker 3: Harry Kellen there in our Shape Shift a second bringing

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Speaker 3: a wealth of experience and inside from his riots and

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Speaker 3: leadership at DEFF and B also reflecting on the importance

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Speaker 3: of adapted but it's a strategic vision and a clear

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Speaker 3: understanding of what being a leader actually is.

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Speaker 1: Seven Notes is the best of the Money Show from

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Speaker 1: this week.

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Speaker 3: There's no finance this week. Taboholo is the program manager

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Speaker 3: for Old Mutual Financial Education. You might be wondering, I

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Speaker 3: hope you are at how are you going to survive January?

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Speaker 3: To do that, you need to manage December. Well, we

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Speaker 3: had some interesting thoughts on how to make sure we

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Speaker 3: can get through December financially.

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Speaker 2: Well at the risk of funding like a green and

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Speaker 2: we certainly don't want to dump on people's enthusiasm around

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Speaker 2: the firstest season, but yes, there's definitely evidence that shows

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Speaker 2: us that is the elevated spent during the festive season

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Speaker 2: studying with now is not use the Black Friday. It's

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Speaker 2: actually the entire November now, So we see a whole

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Speaker 2: lot of spend going into November, which unfortunately puts a

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Speaker 2: bit of a pressure around January because whatever we do now,

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Speaker 2: if we're not properly planned for it, we'll certainly fill

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Speaker 2: it in January. So mostly thinly steven, there are numbers

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Speaker 2: that support the fact that around November, around December, certainly

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Speaker 2: there's elevated spent. And you can see even in township economies,

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Speaker 2: in the township retail sector, they pick up for a

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Speaker 2: lot about fifty fifty fifteen seventy percent of sales, that

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Speaker 2: comparatively higher than the previous months. So yes, definitely we

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Speaker 2: are spending a lot around November towards the festieks of December.

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Speaker 3: And this is not it's not like we plan for it.

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Speaker 3: We haven't spent the rest of the year building up

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Speaker 3: a pot. I mean, maybe we've used the stockfell, but

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Speaker 3: a lot of it is spending that hasn't been It's

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Speaker 3: not saved. I mean, we borrow, we do all sorts

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Speaker 3: of things, but it's not money that we've necessarily planned

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Speaker 3: to save.

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Speaker 2: I think that's the straight part Steven and ye, perhaps

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Speaker 2: for those that are fortunate enough to start in January

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Speaker 2: and put a bit of a kitty aside as part

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Speaker 2: of the stock cells, or those that save as individuals,

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Speaker 2: perhaps the situation is different. But unfortunately to the majority

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Speaker 2: of US, and I'm saying the majority of South Africans

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Speaker 2: because that's exactly what we're seeing in terms of the numbers,

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Speaker 2: we spend the money that we did not we did

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Speaker 2: not save, and yes, we deep into into debt unfortunately

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Speaker 2: a lot around this time. Even in a in an

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Speaker 2: instance where we saved quite a bit for for for January,

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Speaker 2: for school holidays and stuff like for sorry for school opening,

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Speaker 2: we deep into those savings even in November and December,

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Speaker 2: which put us under pressure come January. So yes, unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: the bulk of us Sortificans, we are not particularly a

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Speaker 2: nation of savers, so we tend to rely a lot

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Speaker 2: of conspicuous consumption using unfortunately debt, and particularly around this time.

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Speaker 3: What kind of expenses on December and January? There's other expenses.

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Speaker 3: There's back to school, there's school fees. There's also payments

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Speaker 3: to people who might work for you. You want to

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Speaker 3: give them an extra bonus if you can There are

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Speaker 3: also other issues family members, things like that what kind

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Speaker 3: of expenses get I suppose compromised. I mean, if you

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Speaker 3: spend all of your savings in November, and it's amazing

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Speaker 3: how early we spend it. Now what kind of gets lost?

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Speaker 2: Certainly we actually start depleting even the basics. The other day,

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Speaker 2: we're talking to Africa about the people that are not

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Speaker 2: paying their rental and yes, you do see a whole

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Speaker 2: lot of people skipping their rents around the end of

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Speaker 2: December January, just to make sure that they have a

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Speaker 2: festive siven. Yesually put pressure on the basics. I work

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Speaker 2: for an insurance company and you sexually do suffer. Unfortunately

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Speaker 2: during this period where people over extend themselves and spread

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Speaker 2: themselves for very thin and suddenly you see a revessel

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Speaker 2: of debtortis, you see people skipping rent in some basics,

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Speaker 2: and that spreads over unfortunately into January, so things like

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Speaker 2: who are going to work and transport monkets start to

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Speaker 2: get affected simply because of our high expenditure around Nomber December.

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Speaker 3: Sure, we're speaking to table whole. A thing is the

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Speaker 3: program manager for Old Mutual Financial Education. Tonight on The

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Speaker 3: Money Show, how to survive December, how to ensure that

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Speaker 3: you actually survived January. It's basically about making sure that

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Speaker 3: you save correctly, you don't spend it all. Your calls

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Speaker 3: for table oh double one double A three oh seven

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Speaker 3: O two two one four four six five six seven

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Speaker 3: voice notes on seven two seven oh two one seven

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Speaker 3: oh two you talk table about a blind spot? What

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Speaker 3: is a blind spot during the festive season? The festive

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Speaker 3: season blind.

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Speaker 2: Spot, it's it's a sitting type of behavior. Even for

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Speaker 2: some reason we have this. It's called for more missing

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Speaker 2: out that we don't We don't particularly plan world or

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Speaker 2: as able as are. We get ourselves caught in things

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Speaker 2: that we did not plan for. And the blid sport

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Speaker 2: are those expenses that you did not plan for that

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Speaker 2: you engage in, whether it's an activity whereas some piece

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Speaker 2: of financialategergy you've seen and you haven't planned for it,

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Speaker 2: and because you just want to be hunt of that

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Speaker 2: festive mood, that's that festive mode, if you want to

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Speaker 2: call it that. Then we get caught in those blind

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Speaker 2: spots unfortunately, but mainly it's around the fear of missing out,

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Speaker 2: and it's it's a behavior of saying that we, for instance,

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Speaker 2: seetu in and around the festive time.

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Speaker 3: How can you? I mean, it's so easy to fore

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Speaker 3: pray to that, I mean to just be out and

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Speaker 3: someone says it's to those let's do that. How do you?

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Speaker 3: How do you manage it?

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Speaker 2: I mean?

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Speaker 3: Is there sort of you need a discipline on the spot.

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Speaker 2: Rarely pause, pause and reflect. So there you are, you know,

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Speaker 2: in that que you care in this thing that you

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Speaker 2: did not plan or just pause for a moment and

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Speaker 2: ask yourself a bit of questions. Is it something that

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Speaker 2: you absolutely need at that particular moment. Is it something

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Speaker 2: that you cannot do without and you absolutely have to

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Speaker 2: whip out the store, cut and buy this one thing?

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Speaker 2: So pause and reflect. Is it something that is easily substitutable?

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Speaker 2: Is it something that I can perhaps buy something else

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Speaker 2: for the for the same kind of money. So pause

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Speaker 2: and ask yourself all those kinds of questions. What else

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Speaker 2: am I willing to sacrifice? What else am I feeling

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Speaker 2: willing to forego just to buy this one thing? Think

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Speaker 2: about a month or two that's coming. What are you

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Speaker 2: willing to give up in a month to get this

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Speaker 2: one thing? So, if if you were to ask me,

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Speaker 2: I would advise just take a pause, reflect and ask

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Speaker 2: yourself a few questions and if it's if it's online,

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Speaker 2: don't don't test that check out. But yet, just take

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Speaker 2: your walk a little bit and perhaps come back and say, hey,

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Speaker 2: but perhaps I need to think about this a bit.

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Speaker 2: So keep it in that, in that in that cab

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Speaker 2: for a moment, we'll think about it and just ask yourself,

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Speaker 2: is it something that can that absolutely needs to happen now,

435
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 2: And if it's not, take that brave decision to say, look,

436
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 2: I'll see this. Maybe I need to to plan for it,

437
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,159
Speaker 2: maybe I need to budget for it. Maybe maybe I

438
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 2: need to say for it, and you will still find it.

439
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:32,399
Speaker 2: So my advice is posts and reflect.

440
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,160
Speaker 3: Is it a good idea to leave the situation you're in.

441
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 3: So if you're on a screen and you're about to

442
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 3: press purchase, actually go and walk away from the screen.

443
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:43,760
Speaker 3: If you're in a shop and you're about to buy

444
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,919
Speaker 3: something or about to sign yourself up to something, walk away,

445
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,159
Speaker 3: go for a quick walk. I mean I really do

446
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,160
Speaker 3: mean changing where you are physically and come back.

447
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:57,160
Speaker 2: Absolutely nothing did that. Just walk away, Just take your walk,

448
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,600
Speaker 2: go grab a class of word, and take your somewhere,

449
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 2: go into your gardin and just think about it. Give

450
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,880
Speaker 2: yourself a moment if you particularly if you're online, move

451
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 2: away from the screen, move away from the pause a

452
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:14,919
Speaker 2: little bit, walk away, walk around, do something else and

453
00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 2: see if you absolutely are still drawn to that. Right,

454
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,640
Speaker 2: And in cases where you are physically in an environment,

455
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 2: you are at that mall at that particular time, walk

456
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,880
Speaker 2: away the other think, take your walk and then if

457
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:32,400
Speaker 2: it's absolutely necessary and you've thought up of this and

458
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,879
Speaker 2: you plung for it, I all mean, look, I'm in

459
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,159
Speaker 2: the financial services sector. I'm not saying people should not

460
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 2: spend right, but then take that moment to reflect and

461
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 2: walk away and think about it. Then walk back.

462
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 3: You can see something that looks like the deal of

463
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 3: a year. Right, you can see something you think if I,

464
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:55,920
Speaker 3: if I do that, I'll be able to do something

465
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 3: I never thought I'd be able to do but you've wanted. Also,

466
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 3: it can become the ditch of the what do you mean?

467
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 2: That's the thing? They that that that discount that looks

468
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 2: like the most beautiful thing that you've seen. Unfortunately, if

469
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,120
Speaker 2: you go into debt for that, that's going to take

470
00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 2: you a little bit of a while before you repay that,

471
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 2: So something that is impulsive that you you would have

472
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 2: gone into. Now, unfortunately, the consequence might be longer than

473
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 2: that particular moment. So if if you think about it,

474
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 2: it might look like a deal of a moment, that

475
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 2: might be a long term debt that you have to

476
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 2: and and believe me, you have to sacrifice something else.

477
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:44,679
Speaker 2: There's something else somewhere along the lines that you have

478
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:49,280
Speaker 2: to forego to repay that amount. And particularly if it's

479
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 2: an experience, if it's something that you're just going to

480
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 2: have a meal and you've whipped out that credit card,

481
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 2: you've whipped out that store cut to buy a happy drink,

482
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 2: and after the moment the happy drink is gone, the

483
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 2: debt is still there, the credit cut debt for that

484
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 2: meal was still in main with you. And at some

485
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 2: point you will have to forego something to repay that

486
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 2: amount that you used in that store cut, in that

487
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 2: credit cut for that happy drink, for that happy meal.

488
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 2: But that one's of experience, and unfortunately, yes, we do

489
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,879
Speaker 2: see those kind of behaviors and the ideal thing is

490
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 2: to again, if it's not planned for noether, you'll leave

491
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:28,360
Speaker 2: it alone.

492
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 3: I mean, how long can it take your household to

493
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,159
Speaker 3: recover that that lost financial ground. You you make a

494
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 3: decision in a second, you know, you know, you press

495
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 3: the button and there it is. How long can I

496
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:41,439
Speaker 3: take you to recover anything?

497
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,399
Speaker 2: Between seats and twelve months, depending on what kind of

498
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,879
Speaker 2: yeah you take them for it. So, yes, it looks

499
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 2: like nothing up until you calculate the cost of that

500
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 2: one decision over. Remember this, this product don't come cheap, right,

501
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 2: and the cost of that it might have been one

502
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 2: hundred bucks at that particular moment that you've used to

503
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,880
Speaker 2: buy that happy drink, but the recovery will be six

504
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 2: seven in some instances up to a twelve month spending

505
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:18,119
Speaker 2: on what you've bought. But yes, it does come at

506
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 2: a cost, and it does come at great sacrifice because

507
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 2: you're dipping into your future right to repay whatever decision instantaneously.

508
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 2: In most instances, impulsive decisions that we make now are

509
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 2: the one that according to cost us over in a

510
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:34,680
Speaker 2: long drive.

511
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 3: We're speaking to Tablehole or the program manager for Old

512
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 3: Mutual Financial Education, how to survive December so that you

513
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 3: can actually survive January as well. That's what we're talking

514
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 3: about tonight. I'm so struck by how spending is moved

515
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 3: from kind of December to November, and only because of marketing, Hey,

516
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 3: only because of Black Friday, Like it never happened before.

517
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 3: I made the point on Friday that the biggest dropping

518
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 3: day of the year used to be Christmas Eve, then

519
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 3: the Saturday before Christmas, and I think before that would

520
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 3: probably have been the sort of sixteenth that public holiday.

521
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 3: But now it's November. And isn't that fascinating all because

522
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 3: of marketing. I double there's an issue here around discipline

523
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 3: on the one side and impulse on the other. And

524
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 3: if you want to be financially free, you want enough money,

525
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 3: you actually need to have consistent choices. That's really the

526
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 3: secret to it, isn't it.

527
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 2: That's the secret to it, consistent prudent choices. For some

528
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 2: of us who are not that disciplined but have the

529
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 2: fortune of working for companies that can automate your savings,

530
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 2: that's one way. Let's talk to you to a company

531
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 2: put money aside in a disciplined way, and it's all

532
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 2: about the discipline. It's all about the consistenc system. And

533
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 2: it's not about the money so that small, but with

534
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 2: what you can put it aside and have that clear

535
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 2: goal in terms of where you want your money to

536
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 2: go to it, and that's exactly what it starts worth.

537
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 2: So instead of just being impulsive, at least set those goals.

538
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 2: You know exactly what you're trying to achieve this year,

539
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 2: whether it's going to school, whereas buying some nice shoes

540
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 2: in November. Start now, some of us are fortunate to

541
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 2: say we were born in December, so this is the

542
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 2: time to actually sit down and start writing your plans

543
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 2: for next year. You know that the schools are going

544
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 2: to open, you know there will be it's not you

545
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 2: know June is coming. All of these things are day

546
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 2: so make sure that you're planning affect us all of those.

547
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 2: The holiday, the kids holidays, all of those should going

548
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 2: and go into the consistency of planning for those things,

549
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:46,239
Speaker 2: but attaching the budget to those. So if you have

550
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 2: plans to, for instance, lose weight, you can't just have

551
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 2: I'm not going as part of your expenses, right, So

552
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 2: you need to say these are the plans that I

553
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 2: have in motion, and therefore my budget team will follow

554
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 2: those plans. You don't then get into a space where

555
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 2: you become impulsive. Consistency and prudent saving and spending is

556
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 2: the way to go.

557
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 3: An important conversation I thought there with Tabohollow on this

558
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 3: week's personal finance segment, looking at maintaining your financial wellness

559
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 3: through December and making January, February, March, and maybe April

560
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 3: a lot easier to live with as well.

561
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 1: The best of The Money Show and two two.

562
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 3: This week on our business book review, Yan Man, Managing

563
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 3: director at Gateways Business Consultants, exploring how invisible hierarchies of

564
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 3: social status shape everything from our choices and careers to

565
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 3: our health outcomes and cultural trends, and a very small

566
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 3: advantage can suddenly lead to huge inequality can give you

567
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 3: a very big advantage in the longer run.

568
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 6: It's enormously pervasive. That's one of the most amazing things

569
00:31:56,320 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 6: about It defines who you choose, who who you value,

570
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 6: who you trust. It finds almost everything. Hierarchies have been

571
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 6: around since forever. Amabi was the first one. Then we've

572
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,479
Speaker 6: got the French their hierarchies, so it's been around forever,

573
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 6: and it's been and it's terribly pervasive. Your five year

574
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 6: old kids in the school can tell you who the

575
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 6: who are the smart kids, who are the popular kids,

576
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 6: and they know that almost instinctively. Else by the way

577
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 6: can do that. But milliseconds, we can walk into room

578
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 6: and we can quickly suss out who's who's who in

579
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 6: the room and then we respond accordingly. So I think

580
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 6: that it's very pervasive, and because we know it's pervasive,

581
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 6: but I don't think we've been we've had our consciousness raised

582
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 6: enough as to what this really is. But you'll see

583
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 6: that it has all sorts of implications that often you're

584
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 6: not really aware of. And I think that that's when

585
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 6: it's a lovely term anointed. Somebody has given some right

586
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 6: to do something with somebody else cannot do without that

587
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 6: changes their behavior and changes everything about them. And we've

588
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 6: got all sorts of ways in which we give status.

589
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 6: I'll give you just one example. Institutions give status. So

590
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 6: if I introduced somebody and I said in well, he's

591
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 6: a he's a Harvard Harvard educated lawyer, that's different from

592
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 6: saying is educated part yeah, and New York Times reporter

593
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 6: and Google Google engineer. So we you are given certain

594
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 6: credibility just because the institutions that you're associated with and

595
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 6: has all sorts of long term knock on effects that

596
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 6: we that we need to really consider and just.

597
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 2: To be there.

598
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 3: And I think the one thing that status is all

599
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 3: about and to me is inextricably intertwined with his money. Yes,

600
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 3: it's it's it's I mean, yes, the position that you hold.

601
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 3: And I know in the United States people and companies

602
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 3: go to war over positions. I'm the senior senior deputy

603
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:02,400
Speaker 3: vice whatever. But but in the end, it's really about money.

604
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 6: It isn't interesting part, but it's got the It doesn't

605
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 6: differentiate people on the base of anything that matters much.

606
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:14,800
Speaker 6: We cover even to the very beginnings, the hierarchy was

607
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 6: based on who my dad was and somehow other if

608
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 6: a king married off his child to another royal family,

609
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 6: which sounds like a really great idea, except that it

610
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 6: definitely depeted the gene pool Intellectually. You don't expect that, becall,

611
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 6: they're bright. So the the idea that it has has

612
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:39,399
Speaker 6: credence is yes, and it's very pervasive, but has all

613
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 6: sorts of affect them probably very unlikely and very un

614
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 6: unintended effect. It seems to be a winner take all,

615
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 6: but I've complete disproportion. I stand corrected here. But Beyonce

616
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 6: has got thousands of times more followers than anybody else.

617
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 6: Does that mean that she's a thousand times better? And

618
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 6: I think that this is where things get really interesting,

619
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 6: because there it gives It gives a lot of love

620
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 6: power and love credibility to people for all sorts of

621
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 6: strange reasons and not necessarily intrinsically valuable. It's be very

622
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 6: hard to say that she is thousands of times a

623
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 6: better singer than anybody else, or that the person who

624
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 6: won Wimbledon and the person who lost deserves to be

625
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 6: earning as much money as as next five just for

626
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 6: having done it. So once you're involved in this, once

627
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 6: you are anointed, things actually can make. It make a

628
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:43,879
Speaker 6: genuine difference to your outcomes and the being anointed. It's

629
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,360
Speaker 6: something you can do for somebody else. If I'm anointed,

630
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 6: I can anoint other people. And perhaps one of the

631
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 6: most interesting ones I came across was in the examples

632
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 6: of users is Ella Fitzgerald extraordinary voice. But she only

633
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 6: she has an overweight black woman in the fifties, which

634
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 6: doesn't give you any chance of success. So she said, look,

635
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 6: I make good money I singing clubs. I can't into

636
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 6: like the real clubs because black women and OVO eight

637
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 6: black women, and she happened to be friendly with Marilyn Monroe,

638
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 6: and she ELFs She'll always believe that if I could

639
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 6: play in the big clubs, I could make real money.

640
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 6: Marilyn Monroe said to one of the big most important clubs,

641
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 6: I'll sit in the front row for the entire week

642
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 6: that she's singing.

643
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 3: Sure, just that much as she did.

644
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 6: And of course that just burst onto the scene. So

645
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 6: the power of having Marilyn Monroe being a somebody was

646
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,359
Speaker 6: able to do something for somebody else means I can

647
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:49,319
Speaker 6: annoyed people once I have been anointed. And we find

648
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:51,879
Speaker 6: this in all sorts of interesting ways. If you think

649
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:59,360
Speaker 6: of in the world of fashion, Coco Chanel wears a

650
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 6: figure hiking black dress. That's the little black dress the

651
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:09,320
Speaker 6: boy talks about. Now that might not sound odd today,

652
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,760
Speaker 6: but in those days only people who wore black were servants.

653
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 6: So she comes out there with a little black dress.

654
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 6: But because she's cocxed channel, she can pull it off.

655
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 6: And Princess Day had one made as well. So one

656
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 6: of the things I think we should accept about hierarchies,

657
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 6: social hierarchies is that they're very helpful we know what

658
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 6: to wear because somebody else has done it. It's just

659
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 6: making all these choices.

660
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,919
Speaker 3: Yes, it creates uniforms too. I mean you can tell

661
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,280
Speaker 3: if you go to a very fancy event someone wearing

662
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,120
Speaker 3: a tax as a guest, someone wearing a suit is working. Yes,

663
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 3: I mean it can be incredibly subtle.

664
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:54,360
Speaker 6: Right, Yes, very subtle, and you you can get It

665
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 6: determines so much. But if you look at the real

666
00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:00,440
Speaker 6: problems of this, if you look at the hiring process.

667
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 6: A lovely study that was done I think in the

668
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 6: Boston area. They took a genuine ad and they made

669
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:11,280
Speaker 6: up five thousand fictitious people and with pretty much exactly

670
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 6: the same qualifications. Some had black sounding names and some

671
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:19,320
Speaker 6: had white sounding names. Those people with white sounding names

672
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 6: were hired, were asked for a second interview with a

673
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:27,960
Speaker 6: fifty difference, a huge amount. And it had to do

674
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 6: with just because I thought the name triggered.

675
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 3: No, it wasn't it.

676
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 6: These people are all racist. But it does have almost

677
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 6: like a subliminal effect on what we're doing. And perhaps

678
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 6: I think the most scary part of all of this

679
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 6: is that there's some thing called the Matthew effect. If

680
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 6: remember your Matthew from the Bible. To those who've got

681
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 6: they'll get more, and those who don't have a whole

682
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 6: lot less. And if you think of what happens when

683
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:58,359
Speaker 6: somebody is anointed, when the university is anointed, they can

684
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 6: get away with so much, but it translates into lots

685
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 6: of other ways as well. If you if you are

686
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:10,720
Speaker 6: if you're recognized as an as having done incredible work

687
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 6: as a scientist, you've you've you've come up with something

688
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 6: really important. They the crisper and all of a sudden

689
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 6: because you were headed up that department. There are two

690
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 6: women who headed up the department to different university, but

691
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:29,439
Speaker 6: they if the fact that they did it now will

692
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 6: allow them to get much much more money for research

693
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 6: that they want.

694
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 1: So once you've.

695
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 6: Got it, you can apply more. If you missed it,

696
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 6: you can't get anywhere near there. And I think that

697
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:42,880
Speaker 6: the more we are aware of the power of the

698
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 6: social these hierarchies, the more we can work with them. Then,

699
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:51,719
Speaker 6: And it's not necessarily bad, I mean, but it must

700
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 6: we must, I think, calibrate and be very careful about

701
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:58,759
Speaker 6: how we do this. What's useful about is the shortcut.

702
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:03,400
Speaker 6: We know how hospitals, who's who because the doctors call shots.

703
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,439
Speaker 6: And it's very useful because people know what's my job

704
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 6: and what's yours. And then in some senses is important.

705
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 6: But at the other one, at the other level, it

706
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 6: means that people who should be there can't get there.

707
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:16,360
Speaker 1: Yeah.

708
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 6: Yeah, and those who shouldn't be there very often are there.

709
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 3: It's how you break in, you know, famously, it's how

710
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 3: you get in, how you become from from an outsider

711
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 3: to an insider. And often you need help from an insider.

712
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:32,840
Speaker 6: Yes, indeed, and if just we offer, often presume because

713
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 6: you've been anointed, you matter more. One of the loveliest

714
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 6: experiments are you know, people get very snobby about wine,

715
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 6: and I think I also give a little snobby about wine.

716
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 6: But the fact is that they did a whole bunch

717
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:49,399
Speaker 6: of tests on really serious wine drinkers, and they had

718
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 6: five different bottles of wine, different ranges ranging from really

719
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:56,760
Speaker 6: cheap ones to once they cost ninety dollars a bottle.

720
00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 6: It's just not plied by twenty and they they asked

721
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 6: these people to testimal, but they didn't just ask what

722
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 6: they thought. They put them on MRIs and the scan

723
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:09,840
Speaker 6: to see what what will go on in their brains.

724
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:12,719
Speaker 6: By the way, the same five dollars wine was.

725
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:13,280
Speaker 1: In all the bottle.

726
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 6: Yeah, and when people thought that they were giveing the

727
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,799
Speaker 6: ninety ninety dollar bottle, their brain actually lit up with

728
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 6: pleasure in ways that they shouldn't have if they were

729
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 6: able to recognize those differences. So once somebody is anointed

730
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 6: as somebody who knows his wine, they are given rights

731
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 6: to decide which we shouldn't they shouldn't be.

732
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 3: Getting an interesting conversation with Ian Man discussing the book Anointed,

733
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,839
Speaker 3: The Extraordinary effects of social status in a Winner Take

734
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:47,320
Speaker 3: Most world. The author is Toby Stewart, revealing how hidden

735
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 3: layers of social status quietly influence everything we do. Sharing

736
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 3: insights as well, and how to navigate some of our

737
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 3: social hierarchies.

738
00:41:57,239 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 1: You will listening to the Money Shows the Best Bids.

739
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:03,760
Speaker 3: You Consumer Ninja this week Wendy Nler, of course, sharing

740
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:06,400
Speaker 3: some light into why banking apps the fault to costly

741
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 3: instant payments and what that means if you don't intend

742
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,359
Speaker 3: to pay extra. Wendy spoke to Matteo about the fact

743
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:15,880
Speaker 3: that banking apps the fault to cost the instant payments

744
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:20,479
Speaker 3: partly because banks prioritize speed and guaranteed settlement, and that

745
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 3: means that the default generates a higher fear revenue, meaning

746
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,399
Speaker 3: you may pay extra without realizing it.

747
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 7: This was quite an intriguing case to me. This is

748
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:35,360
Speaker 7: what listener Jean told me in an email. She says,

749
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 7: I could not understand why my bank charges with my

750
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 7: apps for account were suddenly so high. I then discovered

751
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:45,800
Speaker 7: that all my payments were being charged as pay chep

752
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 7: that's immediate at seven Rand fifty per transaction, instead of

753
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 7: one rand fifty for the regular payment, which takes a

754
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 7: day or two to reflect in the recipient's account. On

755
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 7: closer inspection, she's told me, I've now seen that the

756
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:03,319
Speaker 7: appsent bank app starts with you selecting normal payment, for

757
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:07,399
Speaker 7: which the charge is one fifty, And she actually sent

758
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 7: me a screen shot showing this, she says. But the

759
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 7: moment I enter in the amount, the default goes to

760
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 7: pay ship without any request from myself. In other words,

761
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 7: automatically overadded, she says. She sent me a screenshot to

762
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:24,320
Speaker 7: prove that, she says, and then it goes to confirmed payment.

763
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:26,960
Speaker 7: And it's only on checking now that I see I've

764
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 7: been sending a pay shep which as the which is

765
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 7: set as the final method of payment now.

766
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 5: Payship, of course, is a digital payment platform that allows

767
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:43,640
Speaker 5: users to send and receive money instantly right between participating

768
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,320
Speaker 5: banks I think f and b APSA and some of

769
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 5: the top banks, and it's a use pay shop as well. Right,

770
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 5: you can still opt for just the normal transaction without

771
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,440
Speaker 5: the seven ran fifty indeed.

772
00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 7: So admittedly, what I could see from the from the

773
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 7: screenshots that John sent me is that as she went

774
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 7: to press pay, it did say next to it Payshaptain

775
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,320
Speaker 7: said the price you said payshap. But in her mind

776
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 7: she has been choosing normal payment. She has been actively

777
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,399
Speaker 7: selecting it for herself, so she's not thinking that that's

778
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 7: been overridden or changed. Okay by the She's just okay,

779
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 7: it's a normal payment. I'm going to press pay. And actually,

780
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:30,279
Speaker 7: you know, this business of us all just wanting the

781
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 7: immediate payment. Sometimes they aren't absolutely necessary. It's just like

782
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 7: a habit. If you had to add up what you're

783
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:39,239
Speaker 7: paying for all those instant immediate payments, you might be

784
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 7: a bit shocked. Yeah, it's a good exercise anyway. So

785
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 7: so Jean says, quite understandably appster has more than five

786
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:54,800
Speaker 7: million digitally active customers, including those doing internet banking. Imagine

787
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:57,319
Speaker 7: how much extra money they are reaping due to this

788
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:02,440
Speaker 7: default setting in the app. So, yeah, it's a good question,

789
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:04,720
Speaker 7: and I took it to ABS.

790
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 5: And what did they say?

791
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:10,400
Speaker 7: They Well, I was really looking forward to the answer because,

792
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:11,920
Speaker 7: as I say, I had the proof of what was

793
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:15,720
Speaker 7: going on. I couldn't think of why that could be happening.

794
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 7: And you think she's paying six round more than she

795
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 7: thought she was paying for every payment. The answer turns

796
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:23,759
Speaker 7: out to be it had to do with the fact

797
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 7: that she was using the old back Bank app versus

798
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 7: the new one, which I don't think she would be

799
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 7: alone in that, not by long Chalk, responding from on

800
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 7: behalf of ABSA Keenan Mayette, who heads up the bank's retail,

801
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 7: International Banking and Payments division of Personal and Personal and

802
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:45,800
Speaker 7: Private Banking, told me we investigated and discovered that John

803
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:48,720
Speaker 7: was using an older version of the apps a banking app.

804
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 7: The latest version seven point four to two point four

805
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 7: we want to know includes improvements that enhanced the payment

806
00:45:56,160 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 7: flow that she referenced. These updates strength and customer control

807
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:06,360
Speaker 7: and clarity when selecting between payshap and normal EFTs, and

808
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 7: on screen notification confirms that the transaction is instant, with

809
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 7: the option to cancel and choose a different payment method.

810
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:19,759
Speaker 7: The notification also displays applicable fees clearly to a customer

811
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 7: before a transaction is concluded. We will continue to support

812
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 7: our customer to ensure that she is comfortable with the

813
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 7: payment options and that her selections fully reflect her intent. Incidentally,

814
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 7: yes what Jean had to say about all of this.

815
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 8: Yesterday, I received a call from an APSO representative who

816
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 8: asked me to update my app. Once I had done this,

817
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:45,919
Speaker 8: I was keen to trying the app again and see

818
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:49,319
Speaker 8: if it's still defaulted to payshap. This time it still did.

819
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 8: The only difference is that there is now a list

820
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 8: of payment methods and at the bottom a line that

821
00:46:56,520 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 8: reads instant payment information and fees. You need to click

822
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:03,719
Speaker 8: on the eye next to that and then scroll down

823
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 8: through a menu and again click another error that says

824
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:09,839
Speaker 8: view the fees before you actually see what the fees are.

825
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 8: So unfortunately, the APPSTLT defaults to pay shack and I

826
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:17,560
Speaker 8: didn't find the fees clear at all. The only reason

827
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 8: why I knew that they were there was because I

828
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 8: had been through this experience with the bank's representative. Before

829
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:25,800
Speaker 8: pay shack, the bank had a system where if you

830
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:29,239
Speaker 8: clicked on immediate payment, it would always tell you that

831
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 8: you were going to pay higher fees. And they can

832
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:33,960
Speaker 8: definitely do that again to improve the system.

833
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, I know. I think it's one of those things

834
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:38,440
Speaker 5: that we still need to look closer. Yes, there's all

835
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:41,839
Speaker 5: this convenience that comes with the apps and making sure

836
00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:45,759
Speaker 5: that you can send money almost instantly. Obviously that comes

837
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 5: at a price, but I also think it's still the

838
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:50,800
Speaker 5: bank's responsibility to communicate that if you have an older app,

839
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 5: it might just take you automatically by default, charging you

840
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 5: six rand more for a service you normally pay one

841
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:01,000
Speaker 5: rund fifty. I think it's another in here, Wendy, for

842
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:03,839
Speaker 5: us to look closer as we use this technology.

843
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 7: Absolutely, and just yeah, for those absent clients who are

844
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 7: using the old app to be aware of this, because

845
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 7: I'm very much started John be the only one that's

846
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 7: had this happen to her. Yeah, so I also wanted

847
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:24,040
Speaker 7: to know, and I haven't given them enough time to answer, admittedly,

848
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:25,680
Speaker 7: But the main thing I just want to get the

849
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 7: warning out but I asked the bank, when did they

850
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 7: make the latest version of this app available for downloading

851
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 7: by their clients, and what percentage of their five million

852
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 7: plus digitally active customers are still using the old one,

853
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:46,399
Speaker 7: possibly not realizing that their regular payments automatically become more

854
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:49,840
Speaker 7: expensive than the payshap ones. So to say, they haven't

855
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 7: got back to me. And also I thought to ask,

856
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 7: and the answer is, you know, I haven't got it yet.

857
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 7: Is well absolutely refer funding the feed difference to those

858
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 7: who actively chose normal payment and then had that choice

859
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:09,719
Speaker 7: automatically de selected and selected rather in favor of their

860
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:13,880
Speaker 7: more expensive pay hip media payment. I suppose that depends

861
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:15,399
Speaker 7: on whether there's digital proof of.

862
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:18,279
Speaker 3: That you consumer Ninja. This week, Wendy k Nooler, of course,

863
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:21,280
Speaker 3: sharing some light into why banking apps default to costly

864
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:24,800
Speaker 3: instant payments and what that means if you don't intend

865
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 3: to pay extra. Wendy spoke to Matteo about the fact

866
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Speaker 3: that banking apps default to cost the instant payments partly

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Speaker 3: because banks prioritize speed and guaranteed settlement, and that means

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Speaker 3: that the default generates a higher fear revenue, meaning you

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Speaker 3: may pay extra without realizing it.

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Speaker 1: The best of The Money Show and.

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Speaker 3: Two you've been listening to the best bits of The

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00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 3: Money Show. A digestive some of the best and most

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00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 3: important conversations from this week. If you'd like to hear more,

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00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:56,759
Speaker 3: you can go to our website or your podcast app

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00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:59,279
Speaker 3: and search for The Money Show. Thanks for being with

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00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 3: us this week. We're back on The Money Show six

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Speaker 3: o'clock on Monday. Have a good weekend.