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Speaker 1: Let's walk to talk. Seven two.

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Speaker 2: All right, it's time for our while being featured this morning,

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Speaker 2: and we're speaking about some data that's being found by

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Speaker 2: the TEMBISA mathematical model revealing that more South African men

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Speaker 2: are dying of age related illnesses than women. This is

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Speaker 2: despite fewer infections being recorded for men. My guest this

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Speaker 2: morning in studio is doctor Donald Gomert, a health practitioner

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Speaker 2: who is sitting right across be a.

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Speaker 3: Good morning, So, thank you so much for your time.

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Speaker 1: Good morning. I'm also okay that you so.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I saw you hanging your head today. Hey, what's

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Speaker 3: it going to take?

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Speaker 1: What?

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Speaker 3: What can we do?

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Speaker 1: Maybe one knew it was better not three.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we are bruised and battered this morning.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, an important conversation that we're having this morning

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Speaker 2: around you know, the the date in the HIV space,

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Speaker 2: and I want us to break down the numbers, you know,

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Speaker 2: just to see what story they tell. Because according to

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Speaker 2: the stats that I have, seven eight million South Africans

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Speaker 2: are living with HIV conducts and about five point two

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Speaker 2: million of them are women. Correct, But for some reason,

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Speaker 2: the people that are succumbing to age related illnesses are men.

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Speaker 1: Correct.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, First and foremost good morning, madam.

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Speaker 1: It's because.

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Speaker 4: Men in particular, they don't fall pregnant, so they hardly

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Speaker 4: get screened or they hardly get checked. Whilst actually in

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Speaker 4: our counterparts, women they every time when they're go and

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Speaker 4: deliver or when they fall pregnant, we do check them

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Speaker 4: for HIV.

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Speaker 1: Every time. So with men, we hardly see them.

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Speaker 4: I wish there was a lot or we said, if

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Speaker 4: your partner's pregnant, it must also check as well. I

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Speaker 4: think then the testing rate will go up. But because

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Speaker 4: we don't have that, men hardly see healthcare professionals.

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Speaker 1: They just stay away.

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Speaker 4: And even if they come, you try and suggest that

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Speaker 4: we must do them, they says, no, my wife did

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Speaker 4: it or my girlfriend did it three years ago, and

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Speaker 4: here I go.

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Speaker 1: So that's another problem.

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Speaker 4: Another problem with men as well, it's we we are

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Speaker 4: very stubborn to take instruction or help from other people.

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Speaker 4: Even if you've got a psychologist a simple psychical problem,

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Speaker 4: you're supposed to go and see a psychologist. The lady

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Speaker 4: would rather go and see the psychologists, but the men

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Speaker 4: won't go. Yeah, and so they are very compounded or

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Speaker 4: many reasons. Why actually we we we we we actually

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Speaker 4: succumb to HIV and HLATED diseases. Just to help you

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Speaker 4: with also the statistics, it's around eight millions, so five

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Speaker 4: point five million is women and then two point five

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Speaker 4: women a million is men. So yeah, but then the

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Speaker 4: death rate is around fifty fifty to fifty three one

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Speaker 4: thousand per year and men account for like twenty seven

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Speaker 4: thousand worst women are count for twenty four thousand. So actually,

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Speaker 4: in the correct way, it should be the other way around,

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Speaker 4: because women are more they should be dying more. But

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Speaker 4: then it's men who are actually less infected or affected

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Speaker 4: who are dying more. So yeah, that's that's statistics.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and could just mean that because men generally are

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Speaker 2: not getting tested, this number, the two point six million

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Speaker 2: could actually be more.

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Speaker 1: It is actually more.

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Speaker 4: To be fair, I always say statistics are estimate things

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Speaker 4: than never correct, because like you are saying that men

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Speaker 4: who are not tested, So those that we tested, that's

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Speaker 4: what we have on the data. Those that we didn't test,

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Speaker 4: we don't know how many. Our many there are maybe

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Speaker 4: they are actually formilia is. But then because they don't

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Speaker 4: get tested and they're very stubborn with it, then we

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Speaker 4: have a problem actually knowing the exact number of men

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Speaker 4: or even women who are actually because we also ask

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Speaker 4: for consent from even women when they are pregnant for

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Speaker 4: us to test them. So if they say no, we don't,

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Speaker 4: So that's another conundrum.

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Speaker 2: And of course, I mean so this comes down to

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Speaker 2: the late testing because eventually men do get tested according

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Speaker 2: to these tas correct. So it's not that they never do,

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Speaker 2: it's that they get tested much later.

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Speaker 4: Not necessarily. They come and get tested when they's sick.

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Speaker 4: And by that time, if we were to talk numbers,

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Speaker 4: there are city four counts is lower or below two hundred,

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Speaker 4: and they come with opportunistic infections. So then we see

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Speaker 4: that now. But this sickness that this patient is having,

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Speaker 4: it is related to HIV. Them says you suggest to

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Speaker 4: the patient, I think we need to do some HIV tests.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I in my in my practice, I have seen patients

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Speaker 4: with the zero city for count yes, and they didn't

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Speaker 4: present to me thisss I have HIV.

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Speaker 1: They came with other diseases.

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Speaker 4: That actually prompted me to check them and realize actually

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Speaker 4: it's HIV and men also they have another problem. You

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Speaker 4: start them on medication and air they stop when they

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Speaker 4: get better.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I want to come there because so

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Speaker 2: that's that's the treatment interruption, right. Is this an issue

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Speaker 2: around acceptance where men just refuse to accept generally that

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Speaker 2: they are living with the virus or is it recklessness?

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Speaker 4: I think it's multifactorial if we were to say that,

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Speaker 4: because it's not only on HIV medication, on diabetes, diabetic

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Speaker 4: medication type attention and other men. I think they are

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Speaker 4: less adherence to taking medication. They don't take their life

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Speaker 4: or health seriously. If you're saying, let's be honest, yeah,

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Speaker 4: that because the most who actually don't adhere to treatment

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Speaker 4: as compared to women. If she has a headache, like

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Speaker 4: you said, you took actionally when Chips was busy, yes,

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Speaker 4: and exercise. If it was a guy or some of us,

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Speaker 4: we just said and mourn about it, you know, so

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Speaker 4: we don't seek intervention. Most of the time, we just

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Speaker 4: sit and said, you will go by it to a

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Speaker 4: blow off. So that's the weakness of On the other side, I.

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Speaker 2: Want to hear from our listeners. You know, if you

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Speaker 2: are if you've been diagnosed with HIV and you're a man,

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Speaker 2: did you.

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Speaker 3: Take the initiative to go get tested early or did

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Speaker 3: you leave it to.

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Speaker 2: The very last minute. And in terms of treatment interruptions,

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Speaker 2: are you consistent with taking your medication or are you

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Speaker 2: among those who you know, every time you feel better,

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Speaker 2: you think you don't need your meds anymore. And I

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Speaker 2: think we should try to get down to what the

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Speaker 2: issue really is.

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Speaker 3: Is it you.

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Speaker 2: Struggling to accept or are you just being reckless when

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Speaker 2: it comes to your health? Zero double one double three

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Speaker 2: oh seven oh two. If you're a woman also who

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Speaker 2: has a partner, maybe a man, and you are more

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Speaker 2: consistent with your meds, but your partner isn't zero double

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Speaker 2: one double three or seven oh two or seven two

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Speaker 2: seven oh two one seven oh two. My guest this

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Speaker 2: morning is doctor Donald gumt De, a healthcare practitioner, talking

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Speaker 2: us through this latest data around men dying more men

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Speaker 2: South African men dying of age related illnesses despite having

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Speaker 2: fewer or few of the men being infected by HIV

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Speaker 2: in this country. So let's talk about the stigma and

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Speaker 2: how it contributes to the data. You know, I think

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Speaker 2: it's easy to assume that issues around stigma have been

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Speaker 2: dealt with because you know, in the early two thousands,

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Speaker 2: when I think back, it was a big thing, so

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Speaker 2: to speak to someone was diagnosed with HIV.

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Speaker 1: Correct.

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Speaker 2: But today, if someone is diagnosed with HIV and theyre

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Speaker 2: on the ARVs, I think everyone just keeps it moving.

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Speaker 2: And you know, generally people are we've come to the

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Speaker 2: point where we understand.

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Speaker 3: Or know about the you know, the illness.

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Speaker 1: Correct.

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Speaker 3: But that's not always the case.

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Speaker 1: True.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think men in general, see, they will come

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Speaker 4: and consult, you give them medication.

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Speaker 1: They'll tell you they leave it in the boot.

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Speaker 4: They don't know their partners to see about what they're taking.

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Speaker 4: And generally you'll see you Yeah, probably most of the patients,

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Speaker 4: the women are the ones who are actually taking the

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Speaker 4: treatment more than the men. The man who says, naw,

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Speaker 4: how to take it? Even if we tested them, they

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Speaker 4: will still tell you, no, just give me some time,

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Speaker 4: let me just accept that I have the condition, or

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Speaker 4: let me just go and consult I'm younger, or anybody

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Speaker 4: of profit or whatever.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 4: So this like, like I said, it's multifector. With men,

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Speaker 4: they don't just accept the situation and move on. They

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Speaker 4: want to test or try other ways to treat the condition,

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Speaker 4: which actually creates more problems in the community. And imagine

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Speaker 4: it's them actually are the bearers of most of the

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Speaker 4: problems because the ones who actually transmit of the time

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Speaker 4: the HIV virus in the community because of the the

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Speaker 4: disparities which happens in the society where by younger women

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Speaker 4: they the elder women elder men because of the financial connotations,

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Speaker 4: if we may put it that way, and so there's

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Speaker 4: lots of things that happens there. So imagine if one

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Speaker 4: guy has got two or three or five girlfriends and

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Speaker 4: his HIV pos is not taking medication. Because we know

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Speaker 4: it has been proven those who take airvis they are

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Speaker 4: less likely less likely to transmitit the virus to the

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Speaker 4: next person than those who actually don't take it. So

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Speaker 4: by them not coming in test and move around or

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Speaker 4: live with the HIV, the actual POSI more threats to

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Speaker 4: the society or communities. So it's very critical that actually

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Speaker 4: we educate and encourage our brothers and fathers to actually,

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Speaker 4: if you are tested, stick to the treatment. If you're not,

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Speaker 4: please go and test, yeah, because they ailer the better

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Speaker 4: as well. Because immediately your immune system is assaulted by

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Speaker 4: the virus, it's very difficult to rehabilitage you back to normality.

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Speaker 4: You see, because the virus doesn't just sit there and

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Speaker 4: do nothing. It actually damage your immune system as you

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Speaker 4: end up with lots of conditions which are actually opportunistic,

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Speaker 4: your cancers, your couple CITs aircom as we call it,

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Speaker 4: which is common when you reach the clinical stage of

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Speaker 4: or staging off your HIV.

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Speaker 2: I want to speak about male friendly clinics because it's

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Speaker 2: something that I have been seeing in certain communities and

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Speaker 2: I suppose the idea there is to create an environment

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Speaker 2: that allows men to come forward to get tested without

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Speaker 2: the stigma and the quote unquote judgment.

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Speaker 4: True and unfortunately, actually the stigmatization it happens in mostly

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Speaker 4: public some sort of not savaging them because they will

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Speaker 4: you will go to clinics as those who have HIV

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Speaker 4: masque the side or those who have t be the

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Speaker 4: masque decide but tend to come. Now that's stigmatized. And

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Speaker 4: then the patients and that also don't go there. So

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Speaker 4: that's why it's important that actually you take your time

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Speaker 4: because we know of this problem as a clinician, to

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Speaker 4: make sure that you spend some time with a man

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Speaker 4: or a male patient, especially when it comes to HIV.

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Speaker 4: It's what is worst. It's even high blood partition. You

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Speaker 4: diagnose it. Now, you will tell her, I'll come back

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Speaker 4: next to you to start taking the medication and you'll

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Speaker 4: never see him again. You probably see has got stroke.

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Speaker 4: So we have we have got that procrastination mentality. I

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Speaker 4: don't know why, but we don't accept situations attend and

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Speaker 4: west of HIV.

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Speaker 1: It is very terrible.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but you speak of something really important, that there's

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Speaker 2: a difference when it's a man treating another man.

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Speaker 3: Yes, is that something you've.

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Speaker 4: Correct Yes, you see, they are more likely to open

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Speaker 4: up a little bit, even if it comes to the

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Speaker 4: sexuality in but they're not strong or it has come

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Speaker 4: to slow down. They will talk to you when you're

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Speaker 4: a man, but difially female help clinicians, it's more like

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Speaker 4: it's more likely to be very difficult. So hence you

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Speaker 4: try to create that environment that you discuss actually every

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Speaker 4: time if you're there. But it comes with experience and

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Speaker 4: age expression. Actually, as a clinician to realize that, okay,

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Speaker 4: with guys, you need to spend more time. You need

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Speaker 4: to be patient, You need to probe at times, you know,

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Speaker 4: to say don't you have this?

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Speaker 1: Don't you think we must do this?

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Speaker 4: You know, you put it out there and then they

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Speaker 4: will take a bait and then it's much better in

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Speaker 4: that way.

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Speaker 2: I'm so interested in those tactics that you use, you know,

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Speaker 2: as a clinician, how you go about convincing men but

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Speaker 2: also getting them to speak.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure they are. Over the years, you've learned how

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Speaker 3: to work your way around them.

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Speaker 4: That years almost true, Yes, yes, yes, it is true.

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Speaker 4: You have to be patient with them. You have to probe.

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Speaker 4: You know, many times they will come and give you

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Speaker 4: wrong information, but they want something else, you see, so

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Speaker 4: you need to be very attentive when you deal with them,

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Speaker 4: because that's another problem.

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Speaker 1: Why.

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Speaker 4: Actually, like I've introduced in my practice situation where all

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Speaker 4: my male patients, even female, we have to do annual tests.

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Speaker 4: And annual tests include HIV and dibeties include prostate if

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Speaker 4: you're over certain age. You see why because to try

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Speaker 4: and accommodate them that they didn't come into one specific.

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Speaker 1: Tests.

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Speaker 4: But then they have done their annually and then you

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Speaker 4: give the report nicely, you know, to them to say,

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Speaker 4: you know you have passed this year, you know everything

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Speaker 4: is still okay. Continue the way you're doing, and in

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Speaker 4: that way we're encouraging them to stick around and value

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Speaker 4: Even if they're negative, you know they're gonna value it

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Speaker 4: because next year when they come and see you, they

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Speaker 4: want to still see it being negative and not having

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Speaker 4: converted to positive.

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Speaker 1: So it's very critical.

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Speaker 2: I suppose as we wrap up, how can we work

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Speaker 2: towards convincing men to be more intentional when it comes

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Speaker 2: to their health. I don't want to limit it to

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Speaker 2: just HIV testing, because you've spoken about how it's reallyalistical. Yes,

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Speaker 2: you know, there's a more holistic picture to paint there.

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Speaker 2: How can we go about encouraging men in the space.

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Speaker 4: Many people have tried to have like your prosted day

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Speaker 4: where you know there's a massive drive in the society

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Speaker 4: now and then HIV date. So I think we need

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Speaker 4: to have more clinicians or more practitioners paying more attention.

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Speaker 4: You know what is beautiful about life is you diagnose

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Speaker 4: the problem and then you solve it. So we have

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Speaker 4: diagnosed that there's a problem here which pattends to men,

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Speaker 4: which is critical or which is important that we pay

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Speaker 4: more attention into the female, into the male species, ifunt

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Speaker 4: to put it that way, when they come and see us,

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Speaker 4: so don't only focus on their flu If they bring

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Speaker 4: a flu talk about other things, you know, which.

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Speaker 1: In their half.

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Speaker 4: So it's very important and very imperative that we encourage

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Speaker 4: them to actually open up. The biggest thing with men,

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Speaker 4: they don't want to be vulnerable.

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Speaker 1: It's very difficult for them to be vulnerable, you say.

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Speaker 4: With the female patients, if they fight, they will call

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Speaker 4: all their friends to tell them that we thought today

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Speaker 4: with my partner.

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Speaker 1: But with men.

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Speaker 4: With the problem and they end up with the bit

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Speaker 4: this is bad pleasure with lots of things which actually

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Speaker 4: stick to a bottle drinking alcohol because of the problems

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Speaker 4: that have instead of just communicating and solved the problem.

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Speaker 1: Sure.

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Speaker 2: All right, well, doctor Donald Magia, thank you so much

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Speaker 2: for your time. I appreciate your insights. Where can people

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Speaker 2: find you? I know that you ran a practice as well.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm a shy guy with social media.

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Speaker 4: It's only it's only my what's up where I deal

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Speaker 4: with lots of my patients. I will leave it with

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Speaker 4: the producer and then we take it from there.

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Speaker 1: All right, I don't have.

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Speaker 4: Any it's diagrams and what would I keep it safe?

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Speaker 2: Doctor Donald Gomer, health care practitioner on the show this morning,

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Speaker 2: talking us through the latest data around HIV and men.

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Speaker 3: I'm really grateful for the conversation. Thank you for your time.

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Speaker 1: All right.

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Speaker 2: I was hoping that we'd hear from more men, and

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Speaker 2: I know that we can still hear from some of

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Speaker 2: you on your contributions around this.

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Speaker 3: And what do you make of this data?

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Speaker 2: If you're a man in the HIV AIDS, you know,

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Speaker 2: if you're suffering from HIV AIDS or have been diagnosed

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Speaker 2: or living with it, I should say, get in touch

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Speaker 2: with us. How are you approaching your health and how

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Speaker 2: are you supporting your fellow brothers as well? Are you

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Speaker 2: those people that shy away from a diagnosis? Are you

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Speaker 2: those people that you know do not you know, go

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Speaker 2: to get tested for whatever it is. I think there's

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Speaker 2: also a holistic picture here that's being painted, which I

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Speaker 2: think is important. That it's not just HIV AS, but

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Speaker 2: it's it's also just your health in general, whether it's hypertension,

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Speaker 2: whether it's diabetes. It has been seen that men do

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Speaker 2: not generally take initiative when it comes to their health,

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Speaker 2: and I want to know why. Is you're a double

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Speaker 2: one double three or seven oh two or seven two

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Speaker 2: seven oh two one seven oh two