1
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:04,720
Speaker 1: Well, a really really interesting press conference given today by

2
00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:09,400
Speaker 1: SARS Commissioner Edward Kissvetter, and he, first of all, just

3
00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:12,960
Speaker 1: came out with some really impressive number. SARS has, for

4
00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:16,480
Speaker 1: the first time ever collected more than two trillion rand

5
00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:20,160
Speaker 1: in net tax revenue. That's for the twenty twenty five

6
00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:24,320
Speaker 1: twenty six taxier. You could say, let's give everyone at

7
00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:26,920
Speaker 1: SARS a round of applause. You could also say, well,

8
00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,560
Speaker 1: let's all give ourselves a round of applause, because, after all, hey,

9
00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:33,880
Speaker 1: we came up with a cash. But certainly the news

10
00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:38,720
Speaker 1: that SARS is collecting money collecting it efficiently is wonderful. Indeed,

11
00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:43,200
Speaker 1: the other side of that particular transaction, if you move

12
00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:48,480
Speaker 1: further down the public revenue food chain, is of course

13
00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:50,760
Speaker 1: how the money is spent. But let's leave that for

14
00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,080
Speaker 1: the moment and bring in Kanti Paie, whose economist and

15
00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:58,279
Speaker 1: director at ninety Strategies. I was going to bring him

16
00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:02,320
Speaker 1: in and he's just just dropped his line. Well, he

17
00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:05,440
Speaker 1: didn't drop his line. The line drop. Let me be precise,

18
00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:08,959
Speaker 1: so we'll get him back shortly. It has to be

19
00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:12,760
Speaker 1: good news. I think that SARS is collecting more money.

20
00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:17,240
Speaker 1: It does as I suggested and probably said explicitly, raise

21
00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:21,080
Speaker 1: many many questions about how that money gets spent. Let's

22
00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:25,040
Speaker 1: put Guanti Paie on again then to reintroduce him, economist

23
00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:29,319
Speaker 1: and director at niney Strategies, mister Pie, Welcome and thanks

24
00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:32,520
Speaker 1: very much for your time. There are, of course many

25
00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,640
Speaker 1: questions to be asked around this number, but one of

26
00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:39,040
Speaker 1: them that comes to mind for me, Edward keis veteran

27
00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:42,200
Speaker 1: and I must admit I haven't watched the entire press

28
00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:44,840
Speaker 1: conference that he gave, but he was talking about this

29
00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:50,920
Speaker 1: being greater compliance. Is that greater compliance because SARS has

30
00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:55,600
Speaker 1: got whoever wasn't complying before and says comply or else?

31
00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:58,520
Speaker 1: Or do you think there's a willingness amongst South Africans

32
00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:02,680
Speaker 1: to pay their tax? Perhaps we underestimate. Good afternoon to you.

33
00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:07,160
Speaker 2: Good afternoon, John. It's always the latter where we actually

34
00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,240
Speaker 2: realized we have not choice but to actually do this. Yes,

35
00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:15,920
Speaker 2: And I think because they've come, they've become so so

36
00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:18,440
Speaker 2: good at it, and that actually the communication has been

37
00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:20,760
Speaker 2: so strong. It's been that actually most of us have

38
00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:23,680
Speaker 2: been I think that's been a consistent message and I

39
00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:25,480
Speaker 2: think most of us have seen it in the news

40
00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:29,160
Speaker 2: in particular what happens to people who don't comply. Uh,

41
00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:31,080
Speaker 2: And so we've learned that very very much. But I

42
00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:32,880
Speaker 2: think the more important thing is that most of us

43
00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:36,560
Speaker 2: are learning actually that we now, actually this is an institution.

44
00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:38,480
Speaker 2: It's not about a person. So that has been something

45
00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,440
Speaker 2: that as we looked into the news, many of us

46
00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,160
Speaker 2: follow these stories and we realize actually that more than

47
00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:47,480
Speaker 2: anything else, our famous celebrities have been charged for this.

48
00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:50,920
Speaker 2: The powerful have been charged for anantis compliance, and so

49
00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,160
Speaker 2: I think most of us have realized that actually there's

50
00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:54,040
Speaker 2: no getting out of it.

51
00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting that you say this is not about

52
00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:59,480
Speaker 1: an individual, because We've got one of our listeners and

53
00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:03,000
Speaker 1: I'm just going to find that a particular voice Innari,

54
00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:06,760
Speaker 1: that's Louis who says, can you please find out if

55
00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:08,800
Speaker 1: the law does allow for the extension of the SaaS

56
00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:13,960
Speaker 1: commissioner's term. The current commissioner deserves another term. He is

57
00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:17,120
Speaker 1: doing an excellent job. I think he's had an extension already,

58
00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:18,920
Speaker 1: hasn't he? Yes?

59
00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:21,520
Speaker 2: And I think that this is an important question because

60
00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,000
Speaker 2: certainly one of the key key things is that we

61
00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:26,320
Speaker 2: actually don't be allowed we see SARS as an as

62
00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:29,240
Speaker 2: an institution rather than as a person, because that is

63
00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,120
Speaker 2: the reason why. Actually it allows for people then to

64
00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:35,360
Speaker 2: know that they don't they are no favorites. It's not

65
00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,000
Speaker 2: a particular person that's actually forcing them to do something,

66
00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:40,400
Speaker 2: but that actually is the responsibility, and that there's a

67
00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,640
Speaker 2: system around which actually we are all required to pay

68
00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:46,600
Speaker 2: and that wherever is in the seat, we're all actually

69
00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:48,480
Speaker 2: going to have to comply. And I think we come

70
00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:51,480
Speaker 2: from a very very poor place where actually, you know,

71
00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:55,160
Speaker 2: you we saw something quite terrible in that institution, and

72
00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,080
Speaker 2: we see that in many our institutions where if they're

73
00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:01,840
Speaker 2: certain people there and you know that it becomes about

74
00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,000
Speaker 2: the person that has and actually the work that is

75
00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:07,240
Speaker 2: being done and the relationship that the institution has its

76
00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:09,560
Speaker 2: citizens and the role that it plays.

77
00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:12,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I want to look at I mean, we

78
00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:15,760
Speaker 1: can talk in a moment about opportunities this might create

79
00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,880
Speaker 1: for government to invest in infrastructure and all the things

80
00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,839
Speaker 1: the country needs. But just on a practical level, at

81
00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:25,719
Speaker 1: anti party, I mean, if sales has got more money,

82
00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:30,320
Speaker 1: does this allow us, for example, to pay off debts

83
00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,360
Speaker 1: and therefore cut down interest payments and so on. In

84
00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,880
Speaker 1: other words, does more money actually create the possibility of

85
00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:37,839
Speaker 1: even more money.

86
00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:43,040
Speaker 2: Look, John, look the thing is about that we remember

87
00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:47,239
Speaker 2: that this is an institution of the statement than anything else.

88
00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:50,000
Speaker 2: So it is opposed to actually thought. When it does

89
00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:52,680
Speaker 2: this job, it does that job out because it's been

90
00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:55,400
Speaker 2: given a particular menday to do it, and then head

91
00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,279
Speaker 2: over the resources, and it doesn't make any decisions sis,

92
00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:00,800
Speaker 2: So it doesn't make any decisions about spending or how

93
00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:03,280
Speaker 2: that money to be spent in any way, because obviously

94
00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:07,200
Speaker 2: their job is only to come as as as the

95
00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:09,599
Speaker 2: commissioner I've mentioned today that their job is really to

96
00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:12,880
Speaker 2: collect and to make sure that people are complying, and

97
00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:15,640
Speaker 2: that's the thing by law, and perhaps there's some really

98
00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,880
Speaker 2: some good messaging tests that may come there. General obviously

99
00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,200
Speaker 2: the leadership that says, you know, if you do this,

100
00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:23,960
Speaker 2: you are actually doing it for all our good and

101
00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:25,479
Speaker 2: for all of our benefits. And that's one of the

102
00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,960
Speaker 2: key things that you signaled quite well was that actually

103
00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,360
Speaker 2: everybody pays texts, because you know, all of us hear

104
00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,440
Speaker 2: these stories about only a few people pay texts, only

105
00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:36,960
Speaker 2: two percent pay text, only five percent pay text, But

106
00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:39,040
Speaker 2: that if you've ever been in the car and you've

107
00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:41,719
Speaker 2: paid a fair in a text you've actually paid text

108
00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:44,760
Speaker 2: because you know, we pay fewer levees. If you've ever

109
00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,880
Speaker 2: been at a shop to buy, you've also paid taxes

110
00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,320
Speaker 2: because they pay that so more all of us actually

111
00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:53,440
Speaker 2: are contributing, and we have to actually comply for the

112
00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:55,919
Speaker 2: development and for the betterment of the services that we

113
00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:56,360
Speaker 2: all get.

114
00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,400
Speaker 1: So I suppose just a final question, I figure, given

115
00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:04,800
Speaker 1: twenty billion rand recovered from the illicit economy, there is

116
00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,120
Speaker 1: a feeling that a lot of people have and I buy.

117
00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:11,479
Speaker 1: By the way, we remember very clearly plenty a time

118
00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,760
Speaker 1: when SARS had these ads that were real feel good stuff.

119
00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:18,280
Speaker 1: You know, the money you paid allowed somebody to get

120
00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:21,560
Speaker 1: anti retroviral treatment, they got well, and they create created

121
00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:25,240
Speaker 1: all that that messaging was there. I think the grudging

122
00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,720
Speaker 1: vibe around paying taxes is much stronger now than it was.

123
00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,600
Speaker 1: But back to the issue of the illicit economy. Do

124
00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,599
Speaker 1: you have a census to whether they are SARS is

125
00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:39,359
Speaker 1: more effectively squeezing the law abiding or are they starting

126
00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:41,760
Speaker 1: to get more money from the people who are either

127
00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:43,000
Speaker 1: evading or avoiding.

128
00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:47,560
Speaker 2: So there's two things. So the invasion is one thing,

129
00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:49,600
Speaker 2: and then the illicit economy is another. Right and the

130
00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,640
Speaker 2: people that are actually you know, evading the end of

131
00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:55,680
Speaker 2: avoiding has actually been doing a lot of good work.

132
00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,120
Speaker 2: And that's why he is saying that, you know, with

133
00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:00,840
Speaker 2: this sort of going to raise of these we're able

134
00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:03,120
Speaker 2: to do better all the time because they are reaching

135
00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,719
Speaker 2: into the you know, into the corners where we have

136
00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:09,280
Speaker 2: not been able to reach before. So and the technology

137
00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,840
Speaker 2: ass says is becoming more important. And some of the

138
00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,120
Speaker 2: digital methods that they are using for to reach all

139
00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:17,440
Speaker 2: of us, and some of the other works that they've done,

140
00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,240
Speaker 2: you know, tracing from some of us here. You know,

141
00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:22,119
Speaker 2: they'll see a car and they'll see if this person

142
00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:24,400
Speaker 2: drives a bigger like this, and they're actually paying. So

143
00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:26,920
Speaker 2: they've been able to do that and that's been useful.

144
00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:29,520
Speaker 2: Then of course the indicient economy is the one general

145
00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:34,600
Speaker 2: we know that because sometimes people are paying avoiding texts

146
00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:36,520
Speaker 2: or that you know, saying texts have been too high.

147
00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:40,000
Speaker 2: So we know for example that sugar Texas, that cigarette texts,

148
00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:42,600
Speaker 2: alcohol Texas. And then on the side of that are

149
00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:45,480
Speaker 2: people then we are taking advantage that because something is

150
00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:48,239
Speaker 2: being text in the main economy that I can actually

151
00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:50,880
Speaker 2: on the side I should produce something similar to the

152
00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,760
Speaker 2: same and then because I'm not gonna pay text because

153
00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:56,600
Speaker 2: I'm selling it to the corner shop, I'm selling it,

154
00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,960
Speaker 2: you know, to individuals, then I kind of am actually

155
00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:02,920
Speaker 2: going to be able to do away from that. So

156
00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:05,800
Speaker 2: that is something that is actually growing better than actually

157
00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:08,800
Speaker 2: going better. And this is what the SALACE Commissioners trying

158
00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:12,520
Speaker 2: to sort of say, let's actually try and close that gap.

159
00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:14,480
Speaker 2: And that's going to reply a little bit more than

160
00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:17,320
Speaker 2: just what Sauce has to do. It might require better

161
00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,920
Speaker 2: thinking about what we're trying to do with those particular Texas.

162
00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:23,760
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, cigarettes come to mind, and ilicit

163
00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:28,080
Speaker 1: economy in regard to that product very much, front incentive

164
00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,760
Speaker 1: previous three things that the SACE Commission has given twenty

165
00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:33,080
Speaker 1: eight minutes past three