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Speaker 1: Welcome back.

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Speaker 2: It's twenty past five writer John seven two afternoons. My

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Speaker 2: name is Kromoso medicim in for John Pilm in this afternoon.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for tuning in so short while ago.

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Speaker 2: While we've been on air dealing with other stories, a

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Speaker 2: story broke and as you may have heard in the

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Speaker 2: latest eyewitness News bulletin, the home of finding Ossi, Sergeant

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Speaker 2: Fanning Gussi has been raided and I understand that the

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Speaker 2: property is in Pretoria and police are doing a search

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Speaker 2: and seizure at that home.

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Speaker 1: And I've been thinking about this rate of course.

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Speaker 2: And Corsi's been testifying at the Majanga Commission of Inquiry

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Speaker 2: and a lot of what he's testified at the Commission

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Speaker 2: has been from evidence that's been found on his phone.

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Speaker 2: And the question that's been lingering in my mind throughout

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Speaker 2: his testimony is why this man did not delete so

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Speaker 2: much incriminating evidence that's been on his phone, Because a

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Speaker 2: lot of what's been found really speaks to or points

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Speaker 2: to and corroborates some of the allegations that have been

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Speaker 2: made that form part of the terms of reference of

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Speaker 2: this Commission of Inquiry. And there's been explosive evidence against

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Speaker 2: him that's been found on his cell cell phone. Now,

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Speaker 2: my thoughts this afternoon are that if that could be

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Speaker 2: found on his cell phone, imagine what's been found in

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Speaker 2: his home. Imagine what type of evidence police are hoping

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Speaker 2: to gather and find in his home. And if he

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Speaker 2: was so, I don't know if it was bravery or

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Speaker 2: if you just thought they would never find it.

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Speaker 1: But if he was, I want to choose bravery.

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Speaker 2: If you are so brave to keep such incriminating evidence

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Speaker 2: on his phone, I mean, I'm sure he's got so

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Speaker 2: much incriminating evidence that's just lying around in his house.

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Speaker 2: But for some of you who might not know Sergeant

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Speaker 2: finding Couci, I just want to remind you such in

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Speaker 2: fund COSI is the alleged middle man between crime underworld

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Speaker 2: figures like the so kat Molefe as well as Vosmozi

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Speaker 2: kat Madala and senior police officer. These include the likes

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Speaker 2: of Shadrack Sibilla. Now, the allegation that had been made

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Speaker 2: is that Funny Corssi had been acting as a link

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Speaker 2: in some transactions that were made.

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Speaker 1: You may remember seeing his picture.

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Speaker 2: There was a picture of him at the home of

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Speaker 2: Gottiso Katie Millifel where he had a paperbag. The allegation

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Speaker 2: was that there was money in that bag or in

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Speaker 2: that paperbag. Now the claim is that he'd been a

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Speaker 2: link between these figures right as a cop, and he'd

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Speaker 2: made some really concerning an eyebrow raising statements and the

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Speaker 2: evidence that he's given under cross examination has really been shocking,

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Speaker 2: jaw dropping for me. You know, he's spoken about and

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Speaker 2: admitted to handling large sums of money, and he's got

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Speaker 2: a reason for all these sums of money. At some

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Speaker 2: point he spoke about how the money had been had

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Speaker 2: belonged to Taxi Bossom Swazim CIB at some point it

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Speaker 2: was his some of the money that was found, but

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Speaker 2: three hundred thousand rand was his brother's money that was

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Speaker 2: found in a safe and he was facilitating the sale

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Speaker 2: of a bicky. But the point is this man, sergeant

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Speaker 2: has got hundreds of thousands of brands. In fact, if

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Speaker 2: we were to tell you some of this money, I

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Speaker 2: think it will come up to a million plus that's

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Speaker 2: just around him at all times. Well, what does this

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Speaker 2: raid actually mean? What does it symbolize? And not we

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Speaker 2: can what can we make of it? Well, joining me

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Speaker 2: for that conversation is doctor Simon Howell, who's a criminologist

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Speaker 2: at Ucity Center of Criminology. Doctor Howell, thank you so

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Speaker 2: much for your time. Good afternoon, Oh, good afternoon.

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Speaker 1: I think my.

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Speaker 2: First question really is is around this raid in particular.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you would imagine that once police decided to

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Speaker 2: raid the house, they know what they're looking for, and

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Speaker 2: they're going to go straight into the house and look

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Speaker 2: for that for that material. And I find it interesting

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Speaker 2: doctor that they're doing this after finding course, he has

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Speaker 2: been on the witness stand for so long.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think on the one hand, you know, as

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Speaker 3: you mentioned that there was a large amount of evidence

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Speaker 3: found on him or on his phone, and as such,

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Speaker 3: you know, he's considering his habits and the light would

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Speaker 3: be an ideal person to explore in terms of what

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Speaker 3: they may what else they may have. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 3: I mean obviously that the police will have some sort

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Speaker 3: of evidence or at least a very good reasoning for

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Speaker 3: entering his home and conducting a rate. But I think

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Speaker 3: that they have in mind specific things that they're looking

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Speaker 3: for and they hope to find them. And you know,

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Speaker 3: I mean, based on at least of our experience and

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Speaker 3: our understanding of his habits and the way he doesn't

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Speaker 3: seem to hide evidence. They will probably find whatever they're

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Speaker 3: looking for.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and what type of evidence would usually be found

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Speaker 2: in a rate of this nature, I'm thinking a lot

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Speaker 2: of paperwork.

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Speaker 3: Well, yeah, it would be a lot of paperwork. It

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Speaker 3: would be evidence of conversations, It could be financial statements,

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Speaker 3: it could be anything, you know, depending on the direction

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Speaker 3: of the investigation. I mean, I think what the way

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Speaker 3: they place the individual and the evidence they're seeking is

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Speaker 3: to understand the relationships between individuals within law enforcement and

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Speaker 3: individuals in organized crime networks. So you know, I mean,

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Speaker 3: ultimately it's it's any evidence that that can be shown

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Speaker 3: that you facilitated all that relationship were facilitated through through

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Speaker 3: whatever means possible. So I mean, whether that be financial

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Speaker 3: statements or conversations or what's that call, you know, anything

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Speaker 3: really and that would obviously be founded in the home

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Speaker 3: on computers what they like, probably as.

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Speaker 2: Sergeant funding Cossi, if my memory serves me, While was

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Speaker 2: not among the police officers that had been highlighted by

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Speaker 2: Presidents in the statement.

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Speaker 1: That he released where he said those police officers.

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Speaker 2: Were being investigated and we may see, you know, moves

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Speaker 2: being made in their prosecution. What would does rate be

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Speaker 2: part of what would it be part of investigations or

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Speaker 2: police investigations or as well or the work of the commission.

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Speaker 3: I can't speak for that at the moment. I think

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Speaker 3: what they're important to note is that the evidentiary focus

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Speaker 3: of the investigations thus far appears to be more so

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Speaker 3: on the networks and the flows of information between individuals

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Speaker 3: or the relationships they had, rather than the individuals himself.

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Speaker 3: So in other words, they're concerned with the way in

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Speaker 3: which corruption was facilitated and the way in which law

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Speaker 3: enforcement officers facility it, rather than you know, specifically conservative

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Speaker 3: finding something evidential wrongering. So I think in this instance,

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Speaker 3: you know, their concern is with understanding how those networks

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Speaker 3: were both created and sustained, rather than simply just looking

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Speaker 3: for direct participation. It's more about, you know, finding out

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Speaker 3: how people spoke to one another as well as finding

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Speaker 3: out what they said.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and my understanding is that finding course, he hasn't

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Speaker 2: been prosecuted so or charged, So in an instance like this,

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Speaker 2: with there's a raid at his house, can the information

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Speaker 2: that they gather in the search and seizure be used

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Speaker 2: against him in a in a trial.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they can, so long as they have the authorization

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Speaker 3: to undertake the raid, and they've done the right paperwork

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Speaker 3: and essentially provided or obtained permission from a magistrate or

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Speaker 3: a court of law they had instance, then they can.

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Speaker 3: And they collect evidence in the right way, they see

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Speaker 3: it in the right way, and so on. So as

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Speaker 3: long as they follow all the processes and all the steps,

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Speaker 3: then the evidence is admissible. The problem of the course

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Speaker 3: is that sometimes that's not undertaken, and then the evidence

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Speaker 3: becomes inadverssible.

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Speaker 1: Okay, all right, and.

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Speaker 2: And maybe I should have asked you this sooner, But

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Speaker 2: how serious is a raid like this at a home

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Speaker 2: of a person like finding Cossi, a senior police officer

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Speaker 2: who's got very serious allegations against him.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think it's to be pretty serious, considering both

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Speaker 3: that he is the part of law enforcement, that there

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Speaker 3: is evidence that he had facilitated relationships, and of course

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Speaker 3: that he clearly has a lot of information on him.

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Speaker 3: So you know, I mean I said that they will

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Speaker 3: find whatever looking for and then may be significant implications

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Speaker 3: for him and for others as a result.

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Speaker 2: All right, Doctor Simon Howell, thank you so much for

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Speaker 2: your time. He's a criminologist that U see Center of Criminology.

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Speaker 2: I am very very worried about what they're going to

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Speaker 2: be finding against finding Cossi's house, because if what was

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Speaker 2: found on his cell phone is anything to go by,

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Speaker 2: and just you know how he just he didn't bother

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Speaker 2: to delete. And I'm not saying that, I'm not encouraging

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Speaker 2: criminality and saying that criminals should delete from their first

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Speaker 2: but you would imagine that if you know that you've

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Speaker 2: got such incriminating evidence and data on your phone, the

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Speaker 2: first thing you would want to do is delete the

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Speaker 2: things on your phone.

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Speaker 1: But he's decided to stay with all of that.

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Speaker 2: It's been laid bare at the Malanna Commissioner of Inquiry

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Speaker 2: being used against him and cross examination, he's struggled to

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Speaker 2: explain why he's done certain things, like the amounts of

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Speaker 2: money that he has stored at his house. I can

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Speaker 2: only imagine what they're going to be finding physically at

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Speaker 2: his house in Pretoria this afternoon