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Speaker 1: And now The Money Show with Stephen Credits on seven

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Speaker 1: O two.

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Speaker 2: Let's walk little. The Money Show with Stephen Curtis is

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Speaker 2: brought to you by Abscess cib proud host of the

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Speaker 2: Africa Impact Matters series podcast. Absur is an authorized FSP

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Speaker 2: and registered credit provider. Eight minutes after sex Good evening.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the program. I'm Stephen Curtis. A packed show,

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Speaker 2: particularly the full hour. I'm looking forward to our shape

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Speaker 2: shifter tonight. Tim Bunny Bacola, the chair of nurser right

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Speaker 2: at the intersection of all of the electricity transitions, but

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Speaker 2: before then, really great numbers coming out of Tiger Brands.

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Speaker 2: Their CEO, Chard Krueger already on hold waiting to talk

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Speaker 2: to you or speak to Billy. Tommy's the president of NAMSA,

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Speaker 2: also COEO of v Suzu. He's been at the big

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Speaker 2: opening of a new metal stamping facility in Klaberga that's

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Speaker 2: going to help the local supply chain when it comes

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Speaker 2: to cars. National Treasury unveiling a new infrastructure bond today.

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Speaker 2: Duncan Peters's the Director general there follows the medium term

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Speaker 2: Budget Policy Statement. Looking forward to conversation with him in

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Speaker 2: about fifteen minutes time as well a vokile promising innovation

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Speaker 2: to keep you coming to shopping malls. I've got to

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Speaker 2: tell you, I know what would make me go to

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Speaker 2: a shopping mall, and it's very simple. It doesn't even

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Speaker 2: have to be free parking. It just has to be

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Speaker 2: parking that works. I went to a big shopping mall

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Speaker 2: I'll name and shame it was Crest. They didn't have

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Speaker 2: a parking app at all. None of the ones that

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Speaker 2: you can use were available. I was horrified. What would

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Speaker 2: make you go to a shopping mall this Christmas? And

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Speaker 2: please don't say it's the train for the kids. I

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Speaker 2: mean maybe it is, But what would make you go

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Speaker 2: to a shopping mall? Oh double one double A three

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Speaker 2: oh seven oh two two one four four, six oh

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Speaker 2: five six seven and voice notes on seven two seven

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Speaker 2: oh two one seven oh two. But we're also check

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Speaker 2: in with progress being made at the Port of Durban.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot going on there. Does seem that there

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Speaker 2: is some progress.

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Speaker 3: The Lonely Show with Stephen Kruts live on ninety two

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Speaker 3: point seven and one o six f them streaming the

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Speaker 3: Prime Media Plus.

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Speaker 4: NAP and DStv channel eight five six.

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Speaker 2: And now after six or Tiger Brands reporting their revenue

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Speaker 2: up a nearly three percent in the air to the

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Speaker 2: end of September, group operating income up by thirty five percent,

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Speaker 2: operating profit from milling and baking jump twenty seven percent.

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Speaker 2: The appshot of all of this is a special dividend

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Speaker 2: and there I forget. They're also launching a new logo.

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Speaker 2: Chard Kruger is the CEO of Tiger Brands Chart Good evening,

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Speaker 2: Good to talk to you. You've clearly had a strong year.

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Speaker 2: What pushed your operating income up so strong and what

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Speaker 2: made the difference for you as a group this year?

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Speaker 5: Hi, Hi Stephen, thanks for talking to us. The biggest

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Speaker 5: contributor to the to the operating margin going up with

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Speaker 5: us getting our price points right and getting our cost

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Speaker 5: structures right, so getting our pass point right to help

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Speaker 5: our volume growth, which obviously gives you much better efficiencies

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Speaker 5: through your factories. And then all the continuency improvement programs

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Speaker 5: that we put in place over the last two years

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Speaker 5: take the cost out of the supply chain that enables

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Speaker 5: you to deliver to deliver profit like be have.

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Speaker 2: I mean in your bakeries, you increased your margins and

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Speaker 2: you say that was because of factory efficiencies, that you

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Speaker 2: must have made some big changes and at some point

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Speaker 2: you sort of run out of efficiencies to make.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Look the in bikries, the particular issues became off

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Speaker 5: a low base because the bikeris was probably not performing

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Speaker 5: at all two years ago. So that helps. But we

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Speaker 5: in bakeries, in all of business is, but in bikers particular,

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Speaker 5: efficiencies is a big driver of your profitability. You're the

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Speaker 5: number of kilometers you draft to deliver bread, the number

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Speaker 5: of truckture a delivering bread is huge. And if you

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Speaker 5: don't run that decision that you lose the plot very quickly.

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Speaker 5: And doing the opposite actually give you these benefits that

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Speaker 5: you can see.

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Speaker 2: You talk about getting your pricing right, and we've actually

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Speaker 2: seen some food price deflation this year. Has that made

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Speaker 2: it harder?

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Speaker 5: Look, we are stated strategy and our purposes that we

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Speaker 5: want to be relevant to our consumers. We've got great brands,

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Speaker 5: we've got great businesses. The consumers want our products. But

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Speaker 5: if we are twenty thirty percent more expensive than alternatives,

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Speaker 5: then we're going to lose out that. We know that,

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Speaker 5: and we really have to make ourselves relevant and we

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Speaker 5: must make it even for our consumers to decide to

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Speaker 5: buy our products. To do that, we must have the

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Speaker 5: right price, we must have the right promotional activity, and

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Speaker 5: we must be able to play well in combos and

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Speaker 5: those type of things. So you can only do that

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Speaker 5: that you become more efficient. So we've taken a lot

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Speaker 5: of costs out of the organization. We've looked at things

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Speaker 5: like moving from blasts to pet We've reformulated formulas, everything

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Speaker 5: consumer driven. Off course, we will never put the inferior

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Speaker 5: product in front of our consumers, but all those things collectively,

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Speaker 5: look at the supply chain. We've took a lot of

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Speaker 5: cost out of distribution across the organization, and all those

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Speaker 5: things added up to the ability then to get to

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Speaker 5: a vice point we can be competitive at the right margin.

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Speaker 2: I mean, being competitive is everything. And I noticed that

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Speaker 2: actually in fuzzy drinks I suppose technically they're called carbonated beverages,

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Speaker 2: it looked like you actually had to discount some products.

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Speaker 2: Is that tough competition? And fizzy drinks at the moment.

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Speaker 5: We're not csds is what we call it. Carbonate soft drinks.

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Speaker 5: That's the two big eyes. And there is a bit

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Speaker 5: of a price war there I think we're not directly

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Speaker 5: competing with them, but we've got Energy and over Us

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Speaker 5: and obviously there's a lot of an overflow if those

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Speaker 5: products become more affordable, cosumers will buy that rather than

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Speaker 5: over Us or Energy. We've seen a lot of that,

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Speaker 5: so we don't experience that. But we've got a few

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Speaker 5: programs that we've put in place. Obviously we must be

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Speaker 5: quite vigilant with our pricing. We've got promotional activity, we've

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Speaker 5: got marketing campaigns in both of those products, and the

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Speaker 5: last couple of months we saw some comeback that that

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Speaker 5: market is very competitive.

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Speaker 2: And the new logo still a Tiger. Was very pleased

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Speaker 2: to see, Chad, it's black, it uses fewer colors. I

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Speaker 2: don't know, if you say on printing costs what drove

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Speaker 2: the change.

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Speaker 5: Steven, I'm very, I'm very. It's a big compliment to

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Speaker 5: you to pick up that it's safe you cost because

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Speaker 5: that is a big driver. Fewer colors, less cost. You know,

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Speaker 5: we put that on the back of every product that

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Speaker 5: we sell. That's mullions and millions of products. But that's

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Speaker 5: not the driver. The only driver for this. Our view

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Speaker 5: is and and we are Tiger. Tiger Brands I thought

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Speaker 5: we are. We are proudly Tiger. We've got a history

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Speaker 5: that's undred years old. Be proud of that, underd tyears.

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Speaker 5: But we do need we do feel we've turned the

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Speaker 5: corner and we do need to featuristicness almost and really

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Speaker 5: modernize this this brand. That brand, as you see, means

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Speaker 5: a lot of stuff. It represents our whole value chain.

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Speaker 5: You'll see in the if you saw the presentation, the

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Speaker 5: chill not that Tiger is the bottom bit of a

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Speaker 5: Missus balls container. The years are the same as a

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Speaker 5: black Cat logo. So it it really represents our whole

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Speaker 5: value chain and it really is modern. It's quite as certive,

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Speaker 5: it's going for growth and it's futuristic. So we just

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Speaker 5: think it's a right time now to get the organization

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Speaker 5: to really focus on the future and get our consumers

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Speaker 5: and all the role plays in our personals to really

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Speaker 5: join this journey with us.

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Speaker 2: Jah, thank you very much. I mean it's assertive, but

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Speaker 2: it sounds like your Tiger is purring as well. So Kruger,

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Speaker 2: thanks very much. Indeed, the CEO at Tiger Brands.

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Speaker 3: The Money Show on seven Monday till Friday six to

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Speaker 3: a pm.

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Speaker 2: Well, the opening today of a seven hundred and forty

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Speaker 2: million ruand VLS manufacturing metal stamping facility in Colberga. Billy

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Speaker 2: Tom is the President and COEO of E Suzu Motors

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Speaker 2: South Africa, also the current President of the National Association

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Speaker 2: of Automobile Manufacturers of South Africa. Bellye, good evening. Good

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Speaker 2: to talk to you again. We keep hearing about fears

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Speaker 2: that our car industry can't compete with other players. Important

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Speaker 2: does this investment in our local industry and the local

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Speaker 2: supply chain.

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Speaker 6: Steven, very good evening and good evening to the listeners.

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Speaker 6: I must correct one thing. I'm now the former president

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Speaker 6: of NAMSA. I step down a week ago.

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Speaker 2: Monster.

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Speaker 6: Yes, no, no, no, no, you're not up to date. I'll

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Speaker 6: update you, Stephen. This is quite important for us. I

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Speaker 6: mean the industry, yes, is facing and I must challenges.

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Speaker 6: There is a lot of things being said about the industry,

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Speaker 6: but I think each and every industry goes through the

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Speaker 6: turbulence in one way or the other. But I think

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Speaker 6: what's key for us is to invest for the future.

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Speaker 6: I mean what some people say investing ahead of the cave,

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Speaker 6: and that's what we're doing here. But also I mean

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Speaker 6: we've come through a tough period where we've had really

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Speaker 6: look at our business and and and do things that

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Speaker 6: a bulletproof for us going in to the future, like

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Speaker 6: for the volatile prices of containers. So where we've got

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Speaker 6: an opportunity to do things local, we need to do

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Speaker 6: them local for our stability.

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Speaker 2: Did government play a big role in this? I mean

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Speaker 2: it's an important plant, it's important to supply chains. There's

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Speaker 2: a lot of competition from other countries when it comes

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Speaker 2: to car manufacturer. I would presume the DTS might have

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Speaker 2: been involved.

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Speaker 6: Steve, I'm going to take a longer short in answering

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Speaker 6: your question because to me, this is a combination of

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Speaker 6: industry as well as government working together. If you think

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Speaker 6: of the auto industry, I mean our north star is

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Speaker 6: what we call SEM twenty thirty five, which is the

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Speaker 6: auto industry master plane. SEM twenty thirty five talks about

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Speaker 6: increasing the number of people employed, but it also talks

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Speaker 6: about increasing their local content. And then secondly you've got

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Speaker 6: the Industry Transformation Fund. I mean, this fund has been

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Speaker 6: set up by seven OEMs and we contribute money every

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Speaker 6: year towards it. But that fund makes it possible for

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Speaker 6: you to invest in local manufacturing, and that's what we've done.

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Speaker 6: I mean, we've received funding from AITF, We've received funding

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Speaker 6: from my government via IDC. The Black industrialist funding played

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Speaker 6: role as well as one of their banks, and then

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Speaker 6: ourselves as issues played a role, and then that resulted

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Speaker 6: in the seven hundred and forty million investment.

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Speaker 2: We keep hearing that Chinese car manufacturing capacities I mean

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Speaker 2: literally too big for the Chinese market. They've had to

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Speaker 2: shut some of it down, particularly for electric cars. Do

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Speaker 2: you believe I mean, when I've spoken to you in

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Speaker 2: the past, you've been very optimistic we'll keep a car

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Speaker 2: industry here. Clearly you still believe that.

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Speaker 7: As Steven, I clearly believe it.

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Speaker 6: I mean, I'm I'm stimistic about the continent. To me,

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Speaker 6: I don't only look at the essay industry alone. I

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Speaker 6: look at the African automotive industry with the free trade

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Speaker 6: agreement coming into play.

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Speaker 7: To me, there is a huge opportunity in the.

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Speaker 6: Marketplace, and I see the Chinese as almost like an interrupter.

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Speaker 6: I mean, it's it's a big challenge, but we are

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Speaker 6: automotives in Africa. We understand the African conditions and I

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Speaker 6: think we were fairly competitive.

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Speaker 7: I mean we we challenge ourselves.

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Speaker 6: If I talk of Issuzu as an automotive, I mean

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Speaker 6: we benchmark against the likes of Thailand to ensure that

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Speaker 6: our costs are in line. I mean we visit Japan

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Speaker 6: from time to time. And if you look at the

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Speaker 6: investment we've made, it's bringing a lot of stability because

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Speaker 6: instead of importing some of panels from overseas, with the

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Speaker 6: Rento's VALLETI in the shipping prices, were now going to

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Speaker 6: manufacture those locally, which brings stability and makes us more competitive.

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Speaker 6: But most importantly, Steven, it's also reducing the yokabo on

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Speaker 6: footprint because if we procure those locally, we do not

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Speaker 6: emit carboys. But also we employ people. I mean, if

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Speaker 6: you look at this this set up, we are adding

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Speaker 6: fifty two well paying jobs as well.

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Speaker 7: That talks to reducing unemployment.

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Speaker 2: Billy Tom thank you, President CEO v Suzu Motor Motors

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Speaker 2: South Africa and the past President of NAMSA, Stephen don

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Speaker 2: x at Ab Stephen twenty after six, the National Treasury

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Speaker 2: sending some of its top people to a meeting today

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Speaker 2: with fixed income investors. It's the launch of the National

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Speaker 2: Treasury's first Infrastructure and Development finance bond. The Director General

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Speaker 2: in the National Treasury is doctor Duncan. Peter's Duncan. Good evening,

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Speaker 2: How did it go today? How's this process working?

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Speaker 8: Good evening, Steven, to your and your listeners, and thanks

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Speaker 8: for having me look. Perhaps just to take a step back.

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Speaker 8: As you know, in last year's mtvp as we said

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Speaker 8: that one of the pillars of the infrastructure reform agenda

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Speaker 8: is going to be to introduce innovative financing instruments. Work

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Speaker 8: on the credit Guarantee vehicle to de risk private sector

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Speaker 8: participation in transmission infrastructure development is well underway with our partners,

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Speaker 8: the IFC and the World Bank. And another important feature

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Speaker 8: of that reform process was issuing dedicated infrastructure bonds.

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Speaker 9: So the twenty twenty.

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Speaker 8: Six budget next year will for the first time show

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Speaker 8: our borrowing specifically for infrastructure, and we are raising dedicated

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Speaker 8: infrastructure bonds in order to finance the budget facility for

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Speaker 8: infrastructure windows, which we now have four of every year,

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Speaker 8: up from one per year last year. So it's part

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Speaker 8: of the broader reform agenda that's aimed at driving growth

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Speaker 8: through catalyzing greater infrastructure investment.

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Speaker 2: We've seen a sort of quite a few bits of

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Speaker 2: good news. I'm sure you know this bank and the

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Speaker 2: medium term Budget policy statement was a big part of that.

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Speaker 2: I would imagine there might be a little bit more

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Speaker 2: faith now in our government to get strong interest in

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Speaker 2: something like this.

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Speaker 8: Yes, absolutely, And look if you look at the response

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Speaker 8: that we've seen from the investor community, that's been quite

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Speaker 8: quite positive as well. And I think that's important because

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Speaker 8: what we wanted to do was to be able to

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Speaker 8: create a listed instrument that asset managers, banks and others

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Speaker 8: can invest in if they wanted dedicated exposure to public

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Speaker 8: infrastructure projects.

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Speaker 7: And so there's.

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Speaker 8: Clearly quite a quite a bit of interest here, and

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Speaker 8: ultimately the goal is to bold a dedicated new infrastructure

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Speaker 8: base asset class. So over time, as more and more

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Speaker 8: budget facility for infrastructure windows are finalized, and as I

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Speaker 8: said earlier, we are four per year, the projects coming through,

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Speaker 8: those will be ring fenced on the budget and then

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Speaker 8: we will leave reach these infrastructure and development bonds to

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Speaker 8: debit to raise dedicated financing for those projects.

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Speaker 2: We saw our credit rating being upgraded by S and

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Speaker 2: P Global. Obviously things seem to be moving in the

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Speaker 2: right direction. What are you doing to keeping that momentum,

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Speaker 2: to keep that momentum going.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, So obviously the next stop is the budget in

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Speaker 8: February next year. But to make the obvious point that

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Speaker 8: this work has been a number of years in the making.

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Speaker 8: We've been running primary surpluses as a government for the

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Speaker 8: last three years. This is our third year in a row,

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Speaker 8: and it's really only when revenue exceeds non interest expenditure

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Speaker 8: for a consecutive now years and those primary surplaces of growing.

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Speaker 8: It's only then when you can really achieve what we've

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Speaker 8: achieved this year, which is a peak in our debt

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Speaker 8: to GDP ratio, and from next year onwards it will

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Speaker 8: start coming down. So in the budget next year, we

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Speaker 8: want to continue with prudent management of the fiscal accounts,

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Speaker 8: demonstrating a clear commitment to fiscal sustainability. That of course

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Speaker 8: translates into lower interest rates across the economy, and we've

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Speaker 8: already seen that with our bond deals coming down around

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Speaker 8: two hundred and fifty basis points over the last few

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Speaker 8: years over the last few months. Sorry, that translates into

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Speaker 8: lower cost of capital for businesses to invest and better

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Speaker 8: environment for households to be able to spend. So the

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Speaker 8: momentum has to continue in the budget and the MTBPS

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Speaker 8: next year as we move towards restoring fiscal credible that

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Speaker 8: was lost in the period.

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Speaker 2: Prior to COVID, Director General of the National Treasury, Doctor

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Speaker 2: Duncan Peters, I really appreciate the time. Thank you. Twenty

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Speaker 2: five after six The Money Show, Chris Stewart's portfolio manager

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Speaker 2: at ninety one Chris, good evening. Quite a strong update

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Speaker 2: I thought from Tiger Brands. Their CEO is very foolish.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, good evening, Stephen. Yeah, a pretty strong set of

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Speaker 10: numbers from Tiger Brands, beating on all metrics other than revenue.

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Speaker 10: The revenue line was okay, but ghost profit margin was good,

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Speaker 10: operating margin was even better, cash flow was good than

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Speaker 10: looks excellent. Special dividend was bigger than expected. Final dividend

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Speaker 10: was bigger than expected, and indications of more to come

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Speaker 10: and a pretty pretty fun footed artlook statement as well,

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Speaker 10: all conspiring to drive the share of about seven percent

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Speaker 10: on the day, despite the fact that Tiger says being

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Speaker 10: in strong recovery.

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Speaker 11: Motor quite sometimes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and Kila, I mean their shopping centers in South

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Speaker 2: Africa seem to be doing quite well. Their shopping centers

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Speaker 2: in Portugal and Spain are doing quite nicely as well.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, again another strong, strong updates net operating income in

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Speaker 10: their essay business, growing just into the double digits and

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Speaker 10: with good cost control solar installations reducing their dital consumption

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Speaker 10: and reducing their electricity costs, you know, driving some nice

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Speaker 10: margin expansion there, generally speaking, growing their distribution to shareholders

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Speaker 10: by more than it was anticipated and then guiding that

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Speaker 10: their fullier numbers will also be a little bit better

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Speaker 10: than the marketers looking for. So, you know, pretty strong

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Speaker 10: from Vaquilla and again I think well received by the markets.

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Speaker 2: It's so interesting how many companies like Kila have spent

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Speaker 2: quite a lot of money on solar installations over the

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Speaker 2: last couple of years, and now they're beginning to really

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Speaker 2: see the results, and of course ESCIM encourages it because

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Speaker 2: their price is always much higher than inflation.

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Speaker 12: Yeah.

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Speaker 10: I mean, initially it was an investment to keep the

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Speaker 10: shopping centers open and you know, make sure the tenants

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Speaker 10: could carry on trading. Now that electricity supplier is normalized somewhat,

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Speaker 10: it's much more an investment in saving costs and that

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Speaker 10: investment in saving costs is starting to pay various dividends

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Speaker 10: for these businesses.

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Speaker 2: There's a budget from in the UK today from Rachel Reeves.

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Speaker 2: The chances of the exchequer there looks like there's going

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Speaker 2: to be higher taxes and of course Britain's fiscal situation

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Speaker 2: is very constrained.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean, it's at tempting to poke a finger

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Speaker 10: at a poken finger at the punds on.

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Speaker 7: The back of this one.

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Speaker 10: You know, we might not have been able to agree

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Speaker 10: on budget the first time around, but at least we

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Speaker 10: kept to the secret. The UK budget having been leaked

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Speaker 10: about an hour before it was due to be presented,

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Speaker 10: we saw most of the impact on the major financial

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Speaker 10: indicators before the budget itself was actually delivered.

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Speaker 11: And you know, with a lot.

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Speaker 10: Of fear interpredation going into this budget, you know, I

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Speaker 10: think the macro response from you know, from the perspective

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Speaker 10: of inflation expectations in the UK economy, performance of the

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Speaker 10: sterling on the day, performance of long term bond yields

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Speaker 10: in the UK, in particular rallying on the day, means

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Speaker 10: that you know, some degree of fiscal stability. I think

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Speaker 10: achieved as you indicate, you know, at the expense of

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Speaker 10: increased tax, particularly back end loaded increases in taxation, which

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Speaker 10: aren't going to be particularly popular. But I guess it was,

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Speaker 10: you know, was bit of medicine that needs to be

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Speaker 10: swallowed in the UK economy right now.

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Speaker 2: Chris Steward, thank you, portfolio manager at ninety one. We'll

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Speaker 2: speak to Vokill in the next ten minutes. Also just

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Speaker 2: gone six thirty on the Money Show, What have Stephen on.

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Speaker 4: Seven two seven oh two one.

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Speaker 2: Seven twenty three minutes now to seven The time I

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Speaker 2: asked you what would keep you shopping? Why would you go?

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Speaker 2: What would you what would make you go to shopping

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Speaker 2: centers this Christmas? For me, it's what about doing something

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Speaker 2: about the parking that maybe some more constructive thoughts.

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Speaker 12: Hi Steve has going. I think what would to make

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Speaker 12: me go to a particular shopping center is probably the

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Speaker 12: lack of car washers in a car park. I feel

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Speaker 12: like I don't need to be arrested to have my

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Speaker 12: car washer to park in a particular space, especially if

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Speaker 12: I am paying for parking anyway, It's Doze mean Johannesburg.

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Speaker 2: Nazim, thank you. Yeah, I've had that too, and I

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Speaker 2: get the hustle, but there are times you're like, ah,

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Speaker 2: just want to park. All right? Your thoughts, what would

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Speaker 2: keep you shocking? Shop shocking? What would keep you shocking?

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Speaker 2: What would make you shop? What will keep you going

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Speaker 2: to a shopping mall? He says twenty two minutes to seven.

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Speaker 3: The Laney Show with Stephen krudis live on ninety two

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Speaker 3: point seven and one O six FM, streaming on the

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Speaker 3: Prime Media Plus.

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Speaker 4: NAP and DStv channel eight five.

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Speaker 2: Six, eighteen minutes to seven the time all the the

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Speaker 2: Kille Property Fund reporting its net operating income for its

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Speaker 2: properties in South Africa. There are by ten percent. It

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Speaker 2: does seem that more people are going to shopping more.

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Speaker 2: Spain and Portugal their gross rental property income up by

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Speaker 2: eight point two percent. This is for the six months

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Speaker 2: to the end of September. Lawrence Rapp is the CEO

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Speaker 2: at of Wokilair Property. Lawrence good Evening, You're seeing a

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Speaker 2: big increase in trading density in South Africa. Sales per

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Speaker 2: square meter in your township malls it's up seven percent,

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Speaker 2: and commuter malls it's up nearly seven percent. That's quite

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Speaker 2: strong growth. What's driving that.

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Speaker 13: Steven, Thank you. Really, I think it's a combination of

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Speaker 13: a few factors. I think certainly number one is the

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Speaker 13: macroeconomic environment. Certainly many of the headwinds that we had

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Speaker 13: before have now become tail ones. I think lower interest rates,

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Speaker 13: a bit more consumer confidence certainly gets more people shopping.

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Speaker 13: But I think there are a lot of sort of

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Speaker 13: internal issues that we've been driving to make our shopping

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Speaker 13: centers more attractive. We are investing a lot of money

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Speaker 13: and understanding the consumers in the markets that we're in,

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Speaker 13: and driving a lot more promotional activities to encourage people

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Speaker 13: to come into the malls, to make sure that our

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Speaker 13: malls are not only dominant, but the preferred malls that

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Speaker 13: they go to. So I think it's a combination of

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Speaker 13: sort of having a very strong operating platform, dominant malls,

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Speaker 13: and then we're getting the benefit also of those tailwinds

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Speaker 13: in terms of a more positive macroeconomic environment.

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Speaker 2: You talk about innovation for customers and shopping centers, I mean,

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Speaker 2: what changes do you think are going to come. There's

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Speaker 2: so many different ways for people to get things now,

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Speaker 2: and I mean to get through and out of a

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Speaker 2: parking boom. Lawrence, in some cases will be enough to

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Speaker 2: keep me at home. What innovations work to get people

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Speaker 2: to come to them all? Sure?

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Speaker 7: I think you know number one.

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Speaker 2: Seven.

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Speaker 13: One's got to look at the market in South Africa

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Speaker 13: that we're serving. You know, many of our customers don't

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Speaker 13: arrive in their own cars.

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Speaker 7: They arrive either by.

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Speaker 2: Foot or by taxi.

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Speaker 13: So it's a very different market to you know, paying

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Speaker 13: for parking. I heard the clip earlier about being harassed

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Speaker 13: by you know, people wanting to wash your car. Our

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Speaker 13: malls are different their township and rural malls. And you know,

438
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 13: our customers tend to come differently, their shop more frequently,

439
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 13: although in smaller basket sizes. So really, what we are

440
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 13: trying to do is get to the heart of the community,

441
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 13: make sure that our centers are embedded in the community.

442
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,439
Speaker 13: Is the community season not just simply as a place

443
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 13: to shop, but a place that understands their needs, their dreams,

444
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 13: their aspirations, and that we can meet those you know,

445
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,680
Speaker 13: those needs. I'll just give you one example. We recently

446
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:47,120
Speaker 13: ran a promotion across many of our centers across the country,

447
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 13: a Disky football fan promotion with the legendary doctor Kimodo.

448
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,399
Speaker 13: We saw growth in football in excess of twenty percent

449
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 13: on the days the promotions ran relative to the prior day,

450
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 13: the same day in the prior year. So it's about

451
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 13: talking to your community and understanding them. If I look

452
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 13: at our Spanish business, which is a very different demographic. Interestingly,

453
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 13: in Spain, you don't pay for parking at shopping centers,

454
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 13: it's free parking is the norm. But there we sort

455
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 13: of using a lot of loyalty schemes, were using a

456
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 13: lot of AI stuff currently in pilot to understand customers

457
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 13: and their touch points, what they're looking for. So I

458
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,479
Speaker 13: think there is sort of a constant desire on our

459
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,119
Speaker 13: side to sort of really see how we can understand

460
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 13: the consumer and meet their needs. And something we talk

461
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 13: about very often in the business is the nature of

462
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 13: retail will change over time. It has changed over time,

463
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 13: but people always need to buy things, they need to

464
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 13: experience things, they need to socialize and interact, and we

465
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 13: believe that shopping centers are the ideal venue for those

466
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,880
Speaker 13: things to take place. And it's therefore up to us

467
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 13: to understand those needs and make sure we are able

468
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 13: to provide centers to fulfill the customer's needs in those areas.

469
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 2: In terms of the types of shops new maores that

470
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 2: are bringing in revenue. So not just bottle stores are

471
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,399
Speaker 2: up sixteen percent, that's extraordinary. Cell phone's up twelve percent,

472
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:20,159
Speaker 2: but homes home stuff is down and electronics are down.

473
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 2: Are these longer term trends? I mean, I realized that,

474
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 2: you know, the supermarkets have brought in, you know, basically

475
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,239
Speaker 2: almost a bottle store war in some ways. But are

476
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 2: these longer, longer term trends and your walls. Yes and no.

477
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 13: I think in one respect they are coming off higher bases.

478
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 13: Those two categories did particularly well during COVID, so the

479
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 13: bases were high, and that is sort of why the

480
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,640
Speaker 13: growth is perhaps lower. But I think also, you know,

481
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 13: as durable items, durables tend to suffer more when the

482
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 13: economy is not strong. Even though we have spoken about

483
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 13: some you know, some green shoots and tail ones coming through,

484
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,360
Speaker 13: the consumer has still been under pressure. So you all

485
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 13: find that sped will go more towards FMCG and semi durables,

486
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,920
Speaker 13: whereas durables will sort of be the item that will

487
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 13: sort of lag in a more difficult economic environment with

488
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 13: interest rates coming down, you may find that those items

489
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:28,120
Speaker 13: do start becoming more in demand. But also I think

490
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 13: we have seen a lot of consolidation in those sectors.

491
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,399
Speaker 13: So you're forgive me for giving a typical economist answer

492
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 13: of sort of you know, on one hand and the other.

493
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,680
Speaker 13: But I think, you know, I think it's probably typical

494
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,159
Speaker 13: of where the economic cycle is, and I think we

495
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 13: may see some better growth in those areas going forward

496
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,919
Speaker 13: if the consumer does feel more emboldened and has more

497
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:51,439
Speaker 13: money due to lower interest rates.

498
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 2: We've got thirty seconds left, but you're in the process

499
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 2: of buying fifty percent of a big mall in Chatsworth

500
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 2: and Durban. I presume you see a lot of potential

501
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 2: there first.

502
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 13: Definitely, I think it's a cracker of a center. We

503
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 13: think that there are more efficiencies that we can extract

504
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,880
Speaker 13: from it in terms of silent PV and maybe let's

505
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 13: bringing our more focus management approach. So yes, you are

506
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 13: very upbeat about that purchase and think it will add

507
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 13: very nicely to our portfolio overall.

508
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 2: Lawrence Rapp, thanks so much, CEO for kill a property.

509
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 2: It's twelve minutes now to seven o'clock.

510
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 14: The Money Shows Female Crouters is brought to you by

511
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 14: abs CID Proud host of the Africa Impact Matters series

512
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:34,360
Speaker 14: podcast perhapses and Authorized FSP and Registered Credit Provider.

513
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 2: Ten minutes now two seven the time, Well so interested

514
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 2: in what will bring you to a shopping center? Oh

515
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 2: seven two seven oh two one seven oh two. An

516
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 2: interesting piece in Money Web today looking at the progress

517
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 2: the port of Durban is making in improving itself and

518
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 2: in particular just getting goods through more quickly. It does

519
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 2: seem there's more investment in cranes. There seems to be

520
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 2: improvements by the Border Management Agency as well. Devlin Naid

521
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 2: is from these now that Southern African Association of Freight

522
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 2: Forwarders is the executive for SARAS and other government agencies there.

523
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 2: Devon Good evening, I mean we all remember that sort

524
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 2: of moment when Durban was rated as the worst port

525
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 2: in the world. Was a very contested poll. Are you

526
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 2: seeing some changes since then?

527
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 9: Good evening, Stephen, and good evening to your listeners. Most definitely,

528
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 9: we've seen a vast improvement, and I think before anything else,

529
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 9: we just want to acknowledge the World Bank's Performance Index.

530
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 9: Whilst it is useful benchmark, I think it's important to

531
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 9: clarify that that ranking as you rightfully mentioned earlier, largely contested,

532
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 9: but it was predominantly based on the delays at outer anchorage,

533
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 9: and that, to clarify for the listeners, is the time

534
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 9: before the vessels actually entered the port, So it wasn't

535
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 9: a direct reflection necessarily of the court terminal operations themselves,

536
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 9: I think. So therefore the picture was somewhat or very

537
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 9: much uni dimensional. You know, I think port efficiency we're

538
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 9: seeing significant improvements, but in that there's a multi layed

539
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 9: logistics network, the transactional layer, the entity layer, the regulatory layer,

540
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 9: and of course we when you look deeper, there are

541
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 9: many components within the logistics layers, specifically the ports environment,

542
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 9: marine access, landside logistics, operator performance and of course national

543
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 9: supply chain factors that impact the overall final measurement. But yes, Stephen,

544
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 9: we are seeing significant improvement.

545
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 2: Who do you hold responsible for the improvement? Devlin? Who

546
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 2: do you think SORT have done well?

547
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 10: That?

548
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 2: I mean, clearly lots of people are working together as well,

549
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 2: and that's very important.

550
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 9: In this absolutely. So look, I think it's just not

551
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 9: a single approach. There's success has many owners and been

552
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 9: a collaboration between the private sector and TRANSNT. But again

553
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 9: we must commend the leadership of Transnet being very objective

554
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 9: looking at the targets that were set versus the performance.

555
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 9: I think if we cast our minds a year back

556
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 9: when we had significant delays and then are more recently,

557
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 9: of course the release of the report, it's not easy

558
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 9: working with such sort of feedback and still trying to

559
00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 9: keep wits about oneselves in terms of focusing on the

560
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 9: target and delivering the excellent results. So I think it's

561
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 9: been a combination of efforts between the carriers on the

562
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 9: water side, the logistics service providers tranting it themselves of course,

563
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 9: and indeed a very strong public private partnership effort in

564
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 9: getting this performance to stabilize and improve as we have

565
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 9: seen currently.

566
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 2: Yes, the private operator International Container Terminal Services Incorporated. They

567
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 2: now will be running Peer two, the sort of competition

568
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 2: from Musk, the competing bed that's fallen away for various reasons.

569
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 2: I mean, I would presume they'll bring capital to this,

570
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 2: so there'll be more cranes and things like that. And

571
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 2: I mean, are you expecting the changes that we've seen,

572
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 2: the improvements that we've seen together a bit more momentum

573
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 2: to actually pick up.

574
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 9: So I think if we look at the last few months,

575
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 9: so let's call it the last year, there have been

576
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 9: a significant number of deployment across various aspects of the

577
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 9: port operation, including new equipment. Prior to the i CTSI

578
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 9: coming on board, Transit have procured new ship to short

579
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 9: cranes Robert type gantries and that has significantly contributed to

580
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 9: an improvement in reliability and productivity. There's also been an

581
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 9: increase in the maintenance discipline in its current form, there's

582
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 9: title maintenance cycles, there's improved parts of availability, and again

583
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 9: not to cast a shadow on the success, but if

584
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 9: we cast our minds a couple of years back during

585
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 9: the era of state capture, unfortunately the the OEM equipment

586
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 9: procured was not very reliable evidently from the performance of

587
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 9: the port, consistent breakdowns. And I think that's changed quite

588
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 9: quite nicely now where the equipment procured is fit for purpose.

589
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 9: It's from OEMs that have demonstrated capacity around some of

590
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 9: the best performing ports in the world, and I think,

591
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 9: you know, Transmit on their own strength are functioning relatively well.

592
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 9: The fact that i CTSI is coming on board and

593
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 9: the fact that they also have a demonstrated history of

594
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 9: excellent performance and turning around poor operations will will definitely strengthen,

595
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 9: I believe based on their demonstrated history. Of course, the

596
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 9: statement is made that they would continue the good work

597
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 9: that is currently in progress.

598
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:15,640
Speaker 2: And the other port Stevelin. I mean, there was a

599
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 2: time when Cape Town seemed to be battling as well.

600
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 2: Are there any improvements coming from there?

601
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 9: Yeah, so, I think on the back of a stella

602
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 9: citrus season and desiduous season as well, there's been significant

603
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 9: throughput through the port of Cape Town and also significant improvements.

604
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 9: I recall there's been also the deployment of struggle carriers

605
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 9: to the part of Cape Town because again just based

606
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 9: on the design of the Port of Cape Town, that's

607
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 9: the equipment that's fit for purpose. So the progress that

608
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 9: we're seeing in Debin, we're also seeing it across well

609
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 9: all ports across the country and container side Cape Town,

610
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 9: pe Coca as well. So I think it's we're on

611
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 9: a very positive tragically and again I think it's a

612
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 9: partnership effort on all fronts.

613
00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 2: Devlin and I do good to talk to you, thanks

614
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 2: very much. Indeed, from the Southern African Association of Freight

615
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 2: Forward is the executive there for SARS and other government agencies.

616
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 3: What Stephen on seven two seven O two one seven

617
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:10,839
Speaker 3: o two.

618
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 2: Well, I've expressed myself about parking and shopping centers. What

619
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 2: would it get you into a shopping center this Christmas?

620
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 15: Yeah, I Steven. So what makes me go to malls

621
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 15: because I actually don't like shopping is activity. So if

622
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:29,799
Speaker 15: they have like a night market, or they have a

623
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 15: thrift shop market like a Brooklyn mall, or if they

624
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 15: have something like go cutting, ice skating, movies.

625
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 4: Carnivals, that sort of thing.

626
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 15: So it's more activities rather than shopping that attracts me

627
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 15: to a mall.

628
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, market's also a good thing. Some malls have done that. Well,

629
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 2: some have messed that up comprehensively. We all know who

630
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 2: I'm talking about if we live in Joburg, and so

631
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 2: I think that's that's a good idea. I do like

632
00:34:57,320 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 2: the idea of the events, and sometimes there are plenty

633
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:01,760
Speaker 2: of people will come and see someone look at the

634
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 2: success of the sort of doctor Carmalo promotion that they had.

635
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 2: I do think though, that some of the fundamental stuff

636
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:10,359
Speaker 2: just needs to work, and I'll go to a mall

637
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 2: if I know everything there will work. I think that

638
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,840
Speaker 2: also makes really a very big difference seven O two with.

639
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: Email him on Stephen at seven two dot co dot z.

640
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 2: Various rumblings, whispers, suggestions, thoughts reporting of on international wire

641
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:34,239
Speaker 2: services today that that South Africa may not be invited

642
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 2: to the next meeting of the G twenty in the

643
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 2: United States. Now, as I understand it, the way it

644
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 2: works is the US, even though they'll be there currently,

645
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 2: the president of the G twenty can't kick us out.

646
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:46,800
Speaker 2: Decisions on who belongs and who doesn't have to be

647
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 2: taken by consensus. They can make it difficult for us

648
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 2: to come, so they can say no one's welcome, we

649
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 2: won't issue visas, things like that. They could do that,

650
00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 2: although I have to say, I think it would be

651
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,839
Speaker 2: a big move to say to President Drummer Pausa, you're

652
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 2: not welcome in the United States of America. I think

653
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 2: that could be quite a move. I mean, imagine, just

654
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 2: imagine if we were saying to Trump, we completely and

655
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 2: utterly deny you entry. I mean, how would he react

656
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 2: to that. It just seems to me so I was

657
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 2: looking for the right word. I think they're too The

658
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:25,959
Speaker 2: one is childish, just so childish. Take your tantrums self.

659
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 2: Just take it back to the golf course. And the

660
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 2: second I think would have to be that it is

661
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 2: just simple bullying. It's also immature. I mean, I could

662
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 2: go on, there are other words, but we don't like

663
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 2: what you did. Therefore you can't come to the next party.

664
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 2: That's not how you win an argument. If you want

665
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 2: to win an argument, you have to engage. And this,

666
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 2: I kind of feel is something that Trump administration has

667
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 2: done very badly. If you want the rest of the

668
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,879
Speaker 2: world to be like you, you can either just conquer them,

669
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 2: very hard to do, or you can change their minds.

670
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,279
Speaker 2: You're not even bothering to change our minds. You're just

671
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 2: closing the door in our face. And is that going

672
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 2: to change our mind in your favor? Not a chance.

673
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 2: You with The Money Show seven o'clock.

674
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 1: And now The Money Show with Stephen Credits on seven

675
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 1: oh two next walk Little.

676
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 2: The Money Show with Stephen Critis is brought to you

677
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 2: by Abscess cib proud host of the Africa Impact Matters

678
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,720
Speaker 2: series podcast As there is an authorized FSP and registered

679
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 2: credit provider. Eight minutes after seven plenty to come in

680
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 2: the next little while to speak to Graham Quadrington with

681
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 2: business unusual. He's been at the Dubai Futures Forum. Quite

682
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 2: a lot going on, and in fact, some very interesting

683
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 2: thoughts coming out of that. Wendy Nola, your consumer Ninja,

684
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,880
Speaker 2: looking at car dealerships and cars again, just coming into

685
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,840
Speaker 2: sort of Wendy's focus quite something. And then your shape

686
00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 2: shift tonight. I'm really looking forward to the conversation. Tim

687
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 2: Bunny Bocoola is the chair of the National Energy Regulator

688
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:52,239
Speaker 2: of South Africa, is stuck in the middle of all

689
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 2: these electricity transitions. He's agreed to take some questions on that.

690
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 2: We'll also talk a little bit about him if we

691
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 2: get time. What do you do for fun? That kind

692
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 2: of thing, So looking forward to that conversation. Not very

693
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 2: often actually we get the chair of a regulator as

694
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 2: a shape shifter, but I remember reporting on Tim Bunny

695
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 2: bookcolla oh Man, Wow, fifteen years ago. I think so,

696
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,720
Speaker 2: you know, I think all of those are very very interesting.

697
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 2: So looking forward to that conversation from around half past seven.

698
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:22,439
Speaker 2: Good to hear from you as well on a double

699
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 2: one double A three oh seven two two one four

700
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 2: four six o five six seven and voice notes oh

701
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 2: seven two seven oh two one, seven oh two.

702
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 4: The Money show Business unusual.

703
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 2: Well, Graham Codrington, the Futurists and partner at Tomorrow Today

704
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 2: with us on the line. Graham, good evening. It's been

705
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 2: a while since we last spoke. Welcome back. You've been

706
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 2: at the Dubai Futures Forum. I suppose it's a bit

707
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:47,839
Speaker 2: like me going to a journalist conference here as happy

708
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,760
Speaker 2: as you can be. You looked at some key themes

709
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 2: and one of them I found this fascinating is that

710
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 2: focus is the new currency.

711
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 16: Yeah, good evening, Stephen. It is one of the highlights

712
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:03,720
Speaker 16: of Mayo. I'll be honest. Dubai is one of the

713
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 16: only countries in the world that actually has a futures

714
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 16: department in their government, and they have a cabinet member

715
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 16: who is responsible for the future, Minister of the Future,

716
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:21,319
Speaker 16: and they environ the world's futurists to come and join

717
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 16: them at that wonderful Museum of the Future in Dubai,

718
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 16: and we spend a few days thinking about the future,

719
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 16: looking at scenarios, and then the Dubai government produces a

720
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 16: report which they very generously make freely available. People can

721
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 16: just do a search for it. This year's conference was

722
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:42,479
Speaker 16: held last week and the report will come out early

723
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 16: next year. But right at the beginning of the conference,

724
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 16: one of the best sessions was actually by the chair

725
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 16: of the Futures Foundation of Dubai, and instead of coming

726
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,239
Speaker 16: up with a list of predictions for the future, I mean,

727
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 16: as futurists, we don't predict the future anyway, nobody can

728
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:04,840
Speaker 16: do that. But instead of having a list of things

729
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 16: that might happen in the next year or two, he

730
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:13,240
Speaker 16: brought out these three deep shifts that he believes is happening,

731
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 16: and you're exactly right. The first one is focus is

732
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 16: the new currency that attention. Our ability to obviously grab

733
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:28,280
Speaker 16: attention of the market, our ability to grab our own

734
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 16: attention and focus it, whether that's on the to do

735
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 16: list in front of us, or the work that needs

736
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,320
Speaker 16: to be done, or the project we're trying to complete,

737
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 16: or if it's just about making sure that our teams

738
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 16: and our organizations are meaningfully directing their attention at the

739
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 16: things that really matter, you know, in a world of

740
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 16: infinite inputs, protecting your focuses. I actually think a key

741
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 16: leadership skill, nothing else. So I think he's right, and

742
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 16: I think there's a lot of us maybe need to

743
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,720
Speaker 16: take some of the December break not just to recover

744
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 16: from the year, but to think about how we go

745
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 16: into twenty twenty six with a renewed attempt to focus.

746
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 2: It's so interesting because I mean, so many things happen

747
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:21,319
Speaker 2: in a day. You know, if someone asks me at

748
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 2: the end, what did you do today, it actually gets

749
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 2: quite hard to work out simply because you've done so

750
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 2: many different things. I'm sure it's the same for you.

751
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 16: You know, at a personal level, this applies for sure

752
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 16: that I just think we can get into this. It's

753
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:39,719
Speaker 16: more than a hamster wheel, because it isn't just about activity.

754
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 16: It's about the scatteredness of what happens, and every time

755
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:47,359
Speaker 16: you dip into the news, I mean one hundred things

756
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 16: going on at warp speed. But I think at an

757
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:55,280
Speaker 16: organizational level, I really do get a sense that people

758
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 16: are not just sort of exhausted in the way you

759
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:01,239
Speaker 16: normally exhausted in the last week of NOVEA, but I

760
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:06,879
Speaker 16: think we worn out by just this infinite change going

761
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 16: on all around us, and we've got to almost get

762
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 16: a systems level change in twenty twenty six. I think

763
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:16,800
Speaker 16: it's a good call to say, how do you get

764
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 16: attention and focus and build it into your your own

765
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 16: life and your organization.

766
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 2: You're almost hyper connected in a way. Another shift is

767
00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 2: that everyone and no one is an expert.

768
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 7: I like this one.

769
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 16: I've used the line for a few years in my presentations,

770
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 16: where nobody is allowed to say I don't know anymore.

771
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 16: You can only say I don't know yet, or you

772
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 16: can say I don't know and I don't care to know,

773
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 16: which is maybe one way to get your focus back.

774
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:55,320
Speaker 16: But yeah, we live in a world where any information

775
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 16: insight is available at your fingertips. AI pretends to have

776
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 16: intelligence and give us even more information than we think.

777
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 16: So at that level, everybody has the potential to have

778
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:11,880
Speaker 16: access to every piece of information and therefore can at

779
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:15,719
Speaker 16: least pretend or think that they are experts. On the

780
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:18,800
Speaker 16: other hand, there's a danger then that nobody is an expert,

781
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 16: and I think we see this in the world around us,

782
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 16: where there is now a sense that people are questioning everything.

783
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 16: They don't know who to believe. You know that the

784
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 16: video comes across your newsfeed, you can't be sure that

785
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 16: that's real rather than just AI, and so there's a

786
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:43,759
Speaker 16: deep skepticism building it. And again I think as a

787
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 16: journalist in doing what you do, Stephen, this must be

788
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 16: very concerning.

789
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 7: How do we overcome this?

790
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 16: And again, no answers, just questions. This is one of

791
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,399
Speaker 16: the defining shifts of our age and in the next

792
00:43:57,440 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 16: two or three years, I think he's going to define

793
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 16: our world quite dramatically. Everyone and no one is an

794
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 16: expert right now.

795
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 7: I think that's spot on.

796
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 2: And a little bit of information is a dangerous thing,

797
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:11,400
Speaker 2: and AI is reshaping trust and connection.

798
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 16: Now, this this one was fascinating, And this one was

799
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 16: where I took took a little bit of a of

800
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 16: a jump because the actual way that the director of

801
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:27,360
Speaker 16: the Future the Dubai Futures Forum phrased this is AI

802
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 16: will be your best friend. And I'm a little bit

803
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 16: skeptical about AI. Not not that it isn't powerful, but

804
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:40,759
Speaker 16: it isn't intelligent. In my opinion, it's a it's a

805
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 16: mimicry of intelligence, and I think it's best understood as

806
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 16: a form of machine intelligence rather than a form of

807
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 16: artificial human intelligence. But there are many, many people and

808
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 16: on our team we have a psychologist who does quite

809
00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 16: a lot of work on trying to understand this. There

810
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:03,800
Speaker 16: are many people who are beginning to see large language

811
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 16: models and AI models as as people, as as somebody

812
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:12,799
Speaker 16: you can have a conversation with, that you can interact with,

813
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 16: that you can be friends with, even so far as

814
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 16: to say, I would say you could fall in love with.

815
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 16: And I think that there's a fascinating thing going on here.

816
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 16: I don't want to be judgmental in the way I

817
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 16: frame it, because we have an epidemic of loneliness, there's

818
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:33,880
Speaker 16: there's difficulties with mental health, and I think if any

819
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 16: tool that would be useful to help us deal with

820
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 16: loneliness and mental health issues would be good tools. And

821
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:42,839
Speaker 16: I think that there is some good to be done there.

822
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 16: But I think there's also danger down that path where

823
00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 16: we replace real human interaction with human machine interaction, and

824
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:57,920
Speaker 16: and and and no guardrails around it. So for me,

825
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 16: the response is that we need to become more bionic

826
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:04,839
Speaker 16: rather than automate the world. We must augment the world

827
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 16: where human and machine sort of work alongside each other

828
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 16: rather then replace each other. But I think it's a

829
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:15,279
Speaker 16: fascinating thought that maybe the next step for AI is

830
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 16: a step into the relationship space rather than the just

831
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:20,320
Speaker 16: the business automation space.

832
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:21,000
Speaker 7: Fascinating.

833
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 2: Sure, Graham Quadrenton, thanks very much, indeed really appreciated, futurist

834
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 2: and partner tomorrow Today really does give you an indication

835
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 2: of how the world is changing. Seventeen minutes after seven

836
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:35,359
Speaker 2: The Money Show, Consumer Ninja, Well, in the world of

837
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 2: buying and selling things, there's one particular category that seems

838
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:42,080
Speaker 2: to really result in a lot of complaints. And actually,

839
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 2: if you think about it, because of the nature of

840
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 2: the product, it's not surprising. And I'm talking obviously about

841
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 2: pre owned, not pre loved, but pre owned cars. And

842
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 2: in the last little while, there've been a few dealerships

843
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:56,880
Speaker 2: that have actually had a judgments against them. So they

844
00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:01,560
Speaker 2: were various resolutions and people went to court and actually won.

845
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 2: As a result, these dealerships have been ordered to pay

846
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 2: hundreds of thousands of ruan back to consumers. There's been

847
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:09,239
Speaker 2: some hefty fines. Wendy Noler is the person you turn

848
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:11,000
Speaker 2: to to find out what on earth is going on

849
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:13,920
Speaker 2: in this situation. She's our consumer Ninja. Wendy, good evening,

850
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 2: what's going on here?

851
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:20,360
Speaker 4: Hi, Stephen, Yes, So, four separate High Court judgments in

852
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:23,280
Speaker 4: the space of just three months have made it crystal

853
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 4: clear that judges will not tolerate dealerships selling vehicles with

854
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 4: serious undisclosed that's the keyword defects and then washing their

855
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 4: hands of the problem. In two those cases, the dealerships

856
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 4: that are already lost at the National Consumer Tribunal and

857
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 4: so those rulings have the same wag as are court

858
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:43,879
Speaker 4: drooling right. And so these dealerships, so convinced were there

859
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 4: that they were right, appealed those tribunal rulings and then

860
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 4: lost again in the High Court, obviously at considerable extra

861
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:55,320
Speaker 4: expense to themselves. Just briefly, was Wingfield Motors and Cape

862
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 4: Town sold a Forward Focus with a faulty clutch, refused responsibility,

863
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:01,920
Speaker 4: ordered to five hundred and sixty eight thousand plus a

864
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:05,960
Speaker 4: fifty thousand rund fine. The appeal against that was dismissed.

865
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:09,880
Speaker 4: Lambon's and the freed state they ignored a National Consumer

866
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 4: Commission compliance notice showing what the court called contemptuous disregard.

867
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 4: They had a two hundred thousand rund penalty. Again appeal dismissed.

868
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,919
Speaker 4: If Urine Motors in ha Teng sold a mas Bet

869
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 4: fifty with a latent defect, tried to blame the buyer

870
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 4: because the warrant he had expired. The High Court confirmed

871
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:33,840
Speaker 4: the dealerships that the dealership remained liable for the latent defects,

872
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:36,800
Speaker 4: and they were ordered to pay for the repairs plus

873
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 4: one hundred thousand ruand fine again. Appeal dismissed. Santin Reaper

874
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 4: Cars was the latest stephen. They sold a VW GOV

875
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:48,400
Speaker 4: with undisclosed accident damage. Tried to hide behind the prescription

876
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 4: they said past three years. The court rejected that argument

877
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:56,040
Speaker 4: and they must now pay the refund in full four

878
00:48:56,120 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 4: hundred and sixty thousand round plus again one hundred thousand

879
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 4: ruand fine. Peel dismissed.

880
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:03,799
Speaker 2: I mean, the courts are sending a strong message here.

881
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:08,800
Speaker 4: They are, indeed, and the messages dealerships are not exempt

882
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:11,960
Speaker 4: from the Consumer Protection Act if you cannot sell a

883
00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 4: car with defects that existed at the time of the sale,

884
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:18,360
Speaker 4: not disclose them, and then claim later that you didn't

885
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:21,879
Speaker 4: know and essentially the buyerers sorted out themselves. The courts

886
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 4: are also saying that the three year prescription argument won't

887
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:28,840
Speaker 4: automatically save a dealership if the consumer only discovered the

888
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:29,760
Speaker 4: defect later.

889
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:34,319
Speaker 2: I mean, Wendy, you've been saying for years that we

890
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:37,399
Speaker 2: shouldn't blindly trust the salesperson. I mean, you've been saying that,

891
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 2: I don't know, probably longer than you've been telling us

892
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:42,800
Speaker 2: to read the fine. But people still buy a car online.

893
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:44,480
Speaker 2: You go online, you look at the pictures, you look

894
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 2: at the history, you look at the at the at

895
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 2: the kilometers, and then you buy it. I mean, that's

896
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 2: surely a big problem.

897
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 4: I can't get my head around, Stephen. I mean, I'm

898
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 4: from the ad a tandem career for fifteen years as

899
00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:58,200
Speaker 4: a motoring journalist. I'm I'm a petrol header, and I

900
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 4: don't understand people who do that for one thing. To

901
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 4: not even want to see the car and drive it

902
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:06,719
Speaker 4: for me is crazy. But it's become the normal. Let's

903
00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:09,840
Speaker 4: do everything online. Let's see this, you know, go on

904
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 4: to one of the big sites, see this dealership listing,

905
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:16,600
Speaker 4: start engaging over WhatsApp or whatever. See a few photos

906
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 4: of video. I mean, how much can you hide in those?

907
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:23,319
Speaker 4: And then you know, do the finance and arrange for

908
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 4: the courier to send you your car. What could go wrong? Well,

909
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:29,839
Speaker 4: every day, and I'm not exaggerating, every day hear from

910
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:32,120
Speaker 4: someone that did that, and in some cases the car

911
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 4: broke down the first time they drove it, and now

912
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:40,320
Speaker 4: you have a battle royal on your hands to get justice.

913
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 4: It really is become quite a critical issue.

914
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:48,359
Speaker 2: You've been talking to people about it as well.

915
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I spoke to two independent vehicle checking companies

916
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:56,080
Speaker 4: about what they've picked up with the checks, and I said, OK,

917
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 4: give me your October stats. So first check, which does

918
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:02,359
Speaker 4: based online history reports, You give the car that you're

919
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:06,960
Speaker 4: intending to buy. We wanted to buy into their website.

920
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:08,799
Speaker 4: You pair, I think it's one hundred and just under

921
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 4: one hundred and fifty Yrand from full checks everything from

922
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:15,200
Speaker 4: mileage to accident history, et cetera, they found last month

923
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:17,359
Speaker 4: that thirty six percent of the cars they checked had

924
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:20,600
Speaker 4: accident damage or insurance claims on record, and twenty four

925
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:24,120
Speaker 4: percent had rolled back a domitis. This is a big issue.

926
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:26,799
Speaker 4: The industry calls it a haircut. So if you want

927
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 4: the industry to think you know what you're doing, say

928
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:31,480
Speaker 4: has this car had a haircut? One land Cruiser had

929
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:35,840
Speaker 4: two hundred and seventy thousand kilometers removed two seventy thousand.

930
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:40,040
Speaker 4: Only forty percent of cars on those VIN checks came

931
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 4: back completely clean. And then View for you, which does

932
00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:47,320
Speaker 4: physical inspections on cars and background checks preferably before someone.

933
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:51,240
Speaker 4: Bars examined almost two hundred and fifty vehicles for private

934
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 4: bars in October. One hundred and sixty seven of them

935
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:58,960
Speaker 4: had accident repairs and at least ten had haircuts manipulated mileage.

936
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:03,880
Speaker 4: So these on numbers that you really need to hold

937
00:52:04,080 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 4: close to you when you are in the market for

938
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:08,399
Speaker 4: a used car because the chances of something going wrong

939
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 4: are fairly high. Yes, how have you for you? Founder

940
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:13,839
Speaker 4: Malcolm kve put it iven.

941
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:16,959
Speaker 17: So salesmen are prowling on people, you know, they don't

942
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 17: disclose the proper mileage. Then they say to you know,

943
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 17: not it is the right mileage. We'll send you the

944
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:23,879
Speaker 17: service book. Take the car. By the time you get

945
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:26,160
Speaker 17: a service book at too late. So get the service

946
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:28,799
Speaker 17: very fire the service history before you drive that car

947
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 17: off the floor to ensure that you got the right mileage.

948
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:33,759
Speaker 17: If it does not have services. Three, be very skeptical,

949
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 17: I would say, don't take it. Number two would be

950
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:41,680
Speaker 17: the accidents history. Dealers often hide this. If you suspect

951
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:44,399
Speaker 17: any rework done, do not believe them when they say

952
00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 17: it's just just a small touch up. Those small things

953
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:49,799
Speaker 17: often lead to bigger things. The more you dig, the

954
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 17: more you find out that shucks the cause actually in

955
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:56,000
Speaker 17: a serious accident. Do not die for their pressure, Do

956
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 17: not take their pressure. Do not believe anything they say.

957
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 17: As we View for you like to say, never trust

958
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 17: any dealer. There are good dealers out there. They are

959
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:07,640
Speaker 17: amazing dealers. They are great, but it does not mean

960
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 17: that you must trust them.

961
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:12,360
Speaker 2: Founder of View for you and Malcolm cave there. Okay, Wendy,

962
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 2: very quickly. Obviously you need to check the car yourself.

963
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 2: You need to have it looked. Do the banks that

964
00:53:18,480 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 2: finance cars have a role to play here.

965
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:23,799
Speaker 4: That's a very good issue. I believe they do, and

966
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:26,640
Speaker 4: I've asked them a couple of years ago. You know,

967
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:29,520
Speaker 4: why don't you insist that dealers do these background checks

968
00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:31,799
Speaker 4: and provide the reports before they finance the car, just

969
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 4: like they insist that you know you have insurance on

970
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 4: the car before they finance it. This single rule change

971
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:41,840
Speaker 4: would force dealerships to clean up their stock overnight. Because

972
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:45,319
Speaker 4: finance drives most used car sales right most of them

973
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:48,520
Speaker 4: are financed, and at the moment, the banks are indirectly

974
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 4: funding a lot of consumer misery. I will be pushing

975
00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:53,840
Speaker 4: this issue because, I mean a few years ago you

976
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:56,879
Speaker 4: might have argued that the checks that were available were

977
00:53:56,920 --> 00:53:59,640
Speaker 4: a little bit inconsistent, but that's not the case anymore

978
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:05,600
Speaker 4: with the sites that are available. So yeah, I can't

979
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:09,360
Speaker 4: see why how they can continue to justify not asking

980
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 4: for those reports before they approve the ferts now.

981
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:14,520
Speaker 2: Wendy Nola, thank you very much. Indeed, you'll consumer Ninja

982
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:16,080
Speaker 2: on The Money Show tonight.

983
00:54:16,719 --> 00:54:19,320
Speaker 4: The Money Show, Shape Shifters.

984
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:21,440
Speaker 2: Twenty three minutes to eight the time. Well, you will

985
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:23,920
Speaker 2: have heard so many times on this show and others

986
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 2: on how electricity system is changing, how moving from one

987
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:32,080
Speaker 2: operator and Eskom to a proper electricity trading market. You're

988
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:34,799
Speaker 2: now complex and difficult. Some of these issues are there

989
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:37,560
Speaker 2: lots of different factors. You've got to consider, lots of

990
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:40,279
Speaker 2: different parties. And one of the people who's kind of

991
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 2: in the middle of this, and I mean it's the

992
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:46,520
Speaker 2: middle of a major transition, is your shape Shifter tonight.

993
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 2: He is the chair of the National Energy Regulator of

994
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 2: South Africa and he's Tim Bunny Bakula. Tim Bunny, I've

995
00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:56,280
Speaker 2: reported on you for many years. It's wonderful to actually

996
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:58,160
Speaker 2: talk to you as our shape shifter. Thanks for the time,

997
00:54:58,200 --> 00:54:58,880
Speaker 2: good evening.

998
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:02,319
Speaker 11: Evening believing to your listeners as well.

999
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:05,520
Speaker 2: From what I can see online, you you started your

1000
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:08,520
Speaker 2: tertiary at the University of Quasima andare telling you you

1001
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:12,120
Speaker 2: studied a BSc Engineering. I couldn't see if it was

1002
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:16,279
Speaker 2: an electricity qualification or not. Were you keen on engineering

1003
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:19,040
Speaker 2: or were you already keen on sort of the electricity

1004
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:19,560
Speaker 2: side of it?

1005
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:24,759
Speaker 11: So I did my BC in electrical engineering at the

1006
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:29,239
Speaker 11: University of Natal. Further to that, I did my diploma

1007
00:55:29,360 --> 00:55:33,680
Speaker 11: in Engineering Business Management at the Warwick University and my

1008
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:38,719
Speaker 11: master's in Maths, Engineering and Science at UNISO. So I

1009
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:42,960
Speaker 11: was keen on the the electrical supply industry?

1010
00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:46,279
Speaker 2: What was it about it that was so interesting? And

1011
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:49,520
Speaker 2: I can imagine the technical nature of it. I think

1012
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:51,239
Speaker 2: you can. You can sort of drown yourself in it.

1013
00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:53,000
Speaker 2: It must be quite interesting. Was it that? Was there

1014
00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:56,200
Speaker 2: something else about, you know, making electrons move that you

1015
00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:56,960
Speaker 2: found interesting?

1016
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:00,600
Speaker 11: I think, let's tad from the fact that I come

1017
00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:03,920
Speaker 11: from a small village called the Coffinbaba, and in that village,

1018
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:07,279
Speaker 11: electricity was not something that we had a lot of

1019
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:14,839
Speaker 11: So I think my interest was in knowing about this

1020
00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:19,600
Speaker 11: commodity that makes life easy and yet it is not

1021
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:21,160
Speaker 11: so easily available.

1022
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:23,960
Speaker 2: And it must have had such a huge impact on

1023
00:56:24,280 --> 00:56:27,840
Speaker 2: your community when there was the electricity available, and I

1024
00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:29,560
Speaker 2: mean it was one of the parts of the country

1025
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:30,960
Speaker 2: that had to wait quite a long time.

1026
00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:34,319
Speaker 11: Yes, it did, and I think it changed a lot

1027
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:37,160
Speaker 11: of lives. I mean people didn't know no longer had

1028
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:39,960
Speaker 11: to take a bath every day to just go and

1029
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:43,440
Speaker 11: buy meat that they must consume that evening, and then

1030
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:45,640
Speaker 11: the following day they have to go and buy. They

1031
00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:48,360
Speaker 11: could now storm it to reduce their cost. So the

1032
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:52,799
Speaker 11: quality of life just by providing electricity improved. I mean

1033
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:59,000
Speaker 11: kids could play at night and study those who were

1034
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:06,000
Speaker 11: studying under proper lighting, not the candlelight or paraffin lamp.

1035
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:10,320
Speaker 11: So it was a big contributor to the change in

1036
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:11,800
Speaker 11: the quality of life of the people.

1037
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:14,600
Speaker 2: One of your first jobs was at a company called

1038
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:17,440
Speaker 2: Yellend Engineering, and I smiled slightly because there's a yell

1039
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:20,040
Speaker 2: End you probably have to deal with quite often nowadays.

1040
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:24,880
Speaker 11: Yes, it was actually his family business. His dad was

1041
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:27,240
Speaker 11: my boss at Yellend Engineering.

1042
00:57:27,520 --> 00:57:29,200
Speaker 2: Oh wow, I didn't know that. See, so you have

1043
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:35,880
Speaker 2: a long association with the family. Then, yes, So when

1044
00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:38,720
Speaker 2: I first started reporting on you, and I can't remember

1045
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:41,040
Speaker 2: the exact year, but it would have been after the

1046
00:57:41,080 --> 00:57:43,200
Speaker 2: first part of load shedding in two thousand and eight,

1047
00:57:43,480 --> 00:57:45,760
Speaker 2: and you were the member for Electricity at NURSA for

1048
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:48,440
Speaker 2: a long time, and that meant you were the person

1049
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:51,920
Speaker 2: in charge of that. That's quite a you kind of

1050
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:54,880
Speaker 2: would have found yourself, as you know, in the spotlight

1051
00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:58,360
Speaker 2: because so many things were happening around it. How did

1052
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:00,400
Speaker 2: you end up in that position? How did you end

1053
00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:03,520
Speaker 2: up as a regulator? I suppose is what I'm really asking.

1054
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:05,680
Speaker 8: Steve.

1055
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:09,360
Speaker 11: And I think my first contact with the National Energy

1056
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 11: Regulator was when I wanted to do technical audits for

1057
00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:19,040
Speaker 11: them for a few of the transmissions lines and substations

1058
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:21,960
Speaker 11: that they wanted to look at, and out of that

1059
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:27,640
Speaker 11: I then I think they were appointing the first board

1060
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:32,240
Speaker 11: of the National Energy Regulators we know it NASA, And

1061
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:35,640
Speaker 11: it was out of that interaction with the NASA that

1062
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:40,040
Speaker 11: they then nominated me to be appointed as the regulator

1063
00:58:40,080 --> 00:58:42,960
Speaker 11: member that would be primarily responsible for electricity.

1064
00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:47,120
Speaker 2: How did you find the job? I mean, it's very technical.

1065
00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:50,880
Speaker 2: We sort of would see that person in the context

1066
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:54,000
Speaker 2: of making decisions about power prices. It's a complex formula.

1067
00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:57,280
Speaker 2: I often wonder. I mean, you must spend hours at

1068
00:58:57,360 --> 00:58:59,960
Speaker 2: night just assessing all of the numbers to get it right,

1069
00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:03,320
Speaker 2: very kind of fiddly. It must be very interesting as well.

1070
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:05,960
Speaker 10: It is.

1071
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:09,080
Speaker 11: I think there's the part that is really the science

1072
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:12,720
Speaker 11: and the accounting and the economics. That there's also then

1073
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:16,480
Speaker 11: the other part that is more of an art. I

1074
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:19,280
Speaker 11: think I think as much as the regulation we may

1075
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:21,040
Speaker 11: want to look at it is that you look at

1076
00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:25,480
Speaker 11: a lot of numbers and a lot of graphs. But

1077
00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:30,440
Speaker 11: there's a part where you also, because you are predicting

1078
00:59:30,520 --> 00:59:32,320
Speaker 11: things that are going to happen in the future that

1079
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:35,640
Speaker 11: you also don't have one hundred percent certainty around them,

1080
00:59:35,960 --> 00:59:39,439
Speaker 11: you also have an art of how do I make

1081
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:42,920
Speaker 11: sure that even if the future I'm picturing is not

1082
00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:46,520
Speaker 11: exactly what it's going to be, but it doesn't fall

1083
00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:49,080
Speaker 11: far off from that. But I also have to say

1084
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:51,760
Speaker 11: that during the times of low sheading, as much as

1085
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:55,920
Speaker 11: there were many other things that were predicted that would happen,

1086
00:59:56,520 --> 00:59:59,200
Speaker 11: when they happened, they happened at a pace that was

1087
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:02,400
Speaker 11: much faster and what we had anticipated, and we're also

1088
01:00:02,480 --> 01:00:07,760
Speaker 11: the utility that was also not operating at optimal levels.

1089
01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:10,080
Speaker 11: So things got really complicated.

1090
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:12,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean very difficult as well, and I imagine

1091
01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:15,760
Speaker 2: there must have been moments where it was probably quite uncomfortable.

1092
01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:18,440
Speaker 2: If we can, I'd like to talk a little bit

1093
01:00:18,480 --> 01:00:21,720
Speaker 2: about sort of the changes we're seeing now. So there's

1094
01:00:21,760 --> 01:00:26,040
Speaker 2: a review around how we put together the electricity price.

1095
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:28,080
Speaker 2: That's kind of out of your hands in a way.

1096
01:00:28,120 --> 01:00:31,400
Speaker 2: You regulate on what you're given to regulate. But how

1097
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:33,560
Speaker 2: do you see your role in all of that, because

1098
01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:36,160
Speaker 2: I mean I imagine for me it would be kind

1099
01:00:36,200 --> 01:00:38,880
Speaker 2: of furnished to do a whole review without including nurser

1100
01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:41,400
Speaker 2: in it somewhere. And yet your job is to be

1101
01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:45,680
Speaker 2: independent and to basically make a judgment on what you're

1102
01:00:45,720 --> 01:00:47,320
Speaker 2: asked to make a judgment on. I mean, you're a

1103
01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:49,000
Speaker 2: bit like a judge. This is the law you have

1104
01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:49,440
Speaker 2: to follow.

1105
01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:55,680
Speaker 11: That seven, the matter of pricing. As I said that,

1106
01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:59,440
Speaker 11: I mean, there's accounting, there's economics, and there's engineering in it,

1107
01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:02,720
Speaker 11: and when you have to determine the pricing, you have

1108
01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:07,200
Speaker 11: to consider all of those fields. And in what we

1109
01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:10,320
Speaker 11: are going to do now now, that we are moving

1110
01:01:10,360 --> 01:01:13,560
Speaker 11: towards the market. What is being hoped would happen is

1111
01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:17,760
Speaker 11: that when we have other players that wants to sell

1112
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:22,440
Speaker 11: their product, the tendency when a market is created is

1113
01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:27,560
Speaker 11: that producers try and find the list possible way of

1114
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:31,400
Speaker 11: producing their project, which then results in the list possible

1115
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:35,280
Speaker 11: costs of the product. What our function is going to

1116
01:01:35,320 --> 01:01:38,400
Speaker 11: be going forward as a regulator is to ensure that

1117
01:01:38,520 --> 01:01:42,200
Speaker 11: the playing fields are leveled. We do not necessarily have

1118
01:01:42,320 --> 01:01:46,720
Speaker 11: an entity that has the advantage over the other. Unfortunately,

1119
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:48,640
Speaker 11: in our case in South Africa, we're still going to

1120
01:01:48,640 --> 01:01:51,880
Speaker 11: have es COM being a dominant player for the list

1121
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:55,560
Speaker 11: the next ten years. So our function is still going

1122
01:01:55,640 --> 01:01:59,840
Speaker 11: to be that one of mitigating that dominant dominance of

1123
01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:03,680
Speaker 11: dominant power of es Common ensuring that the other players

1124
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:07,280
Speaker 11: that are not dominant are given the same rules to

1125
01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:11,400
Speaker 11: play under the same field and the same parameters operate under.

1126
01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:15,520
Speaker 2: So, just to be clear, you do believe, I mean

1127
01:02:15,560 --> 01:02:18,560
Speaker 2: I believe this. You do believe that the introduction of

1128
01:02:18,640 --> 01:02:23,440
Speaker 2: competition will bring electricity prices down. It will make electricity

1129
01:02:23,480 --> 01:02:28,160
Speaker 2: prices lower at some point.

1130
01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:30,800
Speaker 11: Too, when we get to a point where there's efficiencies

1131
01:02:30,960 --> 01:02:34,360
Speaker 11: in the way that you run your operations to your operations,

1132
01:02:34,880 --> 01:02:38,880
Speaker 11: then there is no reason why the electricity prices would

1133
01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:41,640
Speaker 11: not go down. We also have a change in the

1134
01:02:41,720 --> 01:02:45,760
Speaker 11: technologies that are being used that also will contribute to

1135
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:48,800
Speaker 11: the reduction in the costs and therefore make the electricity

1136
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:54,680
Speaker 11: prices kind of reduced from the levels that we're seeing.

1137
01:02:55,680 --> 01:02:58,720
Speaker 2: So, I mean, there might be a moment where eSCM,

1138
01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:01,760
Speaker 2: for various reasons, may because it's such a big coal

1139
01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:06,040
Speaker 2: fired producer of power, just can't compete with other operators.

1140
01:03:06,280 --> 01:03:08,320
Speaker 2: Do you have to take that into account that we

1141
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:12,320
Speaker 2: do kind of need ESKIM or something like it, even

1142
01:03:12,320 --> 01:03:14,560
Speaker 2: if it may just never be able to really compete

1143
01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:16,880
Speaker 2: on price. I mean, that's quite a difficult situation to

1144
01:03:16,960 --> 01:03:18,400
Speaker 2: have to deal with where you kind of need it

1145
01:03:18,440 --> 01:03:21,720
Speaker 2: as a I suppose I don't know any emergency or

1146
01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:25,920
Speaker 2: a baseload supplier or something, and yet other newer plants

1147
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:28,919
Speaker 2: may just be able to provide electricity more cheaply. I mean,

1148
01:03:29,160 --> 01:03:31,720
Speaker 2: you need to keep ESK going in that circumstance, and

1149
01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:33,480
Speaker 2: yet it won't be competitive.

1150
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:40,720
Speaker 11: That's partly true that we have to keep ESCOM there going,

1151
01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:43,360
Speaker 11: But I think one of the reasons why we will

1152
01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:47,720
Speaker 11: keep ESKOM going is because we also haven't got to

1153
01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:51,360
Speaker 11: a stage where the alternative technologies are able to supply

1154
01:03:51,480 --> 01:03:54,880
Speaker 11: power twenty four to seven. The sun only shines during

1155
01:03:54,920 --> 01:03:57,880
Speaker 11: the day, The wind blows when it wants to blow,

1156
01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:02,720
Speaker 11: and therefore you need something that can then provide that

1157
01:04:02,800 --> 01:04:05,040
Speaker 11: base power for when there's no wind and when there's

1158
01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:09,640
Speaker 11: no sun. And I think that's the advantage that ES commands.

1159
01:04:10,240 --> 01:04:13,640
Speaker 11: The disadvantage with the plants that they have is that

1160
01:04:14,280 --> 01:04:16,760
Speaker 11: they are not the sort of plants that you can,

1161
01:04:17,920 --> 01:04:21,520
Speaker 11: you know, ten on and off and when you need them,

1162
01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:24,200
Speaker 11: you need to be running them all of the time

1163
01:04:24,760 --> 01:04:27,480
Speaker 11: for them to be able to produce the power. It's

1164
01:04:27,520 --> 01:04:29,919
Speaker 11: not like you can, I mean, to study the cold

1165
01:04:29,960 --> 01:04:34,160
Speaker 11: fire power station takes a few hours and and and

1166
01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:38,160
Speaker 11: therefore we have to accept that there is going to

1167
01:04:38,200 --> 01:04:42,280
Speaker 11: be that part of the inefficiency in our system if

1168
01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:46,240
Speaker 11: we want to have continuous power available. But I think

1169
01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:50,200
Speaker 11: as the technologies change, and as the ESCOME improves its

1170
01:04:50,200 --> 01:04:53,640
Speaker 11: own technologism, so we will get to a point where

1171
01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:58,120
Speaker 11: we have a way of adjusting the output of the

1172
01:04:58,160 --> 01:05:02,120
Speaker 11: cold fire power stations to align with what is required

1173
01:05:02,160 --> 01:05:04,760
Speaker 11: and not to just have them idling because you can't

1174
01:05:04,760 --> 01:05:05,479
Speaker 11: switch them off.

1175
01:05:06,440 --> 01:05:08,520
Speaker 2: I want to ask you to make a prediction about

1176
01:05:08,560 --> 01:05:10,680
Speaker 2: power prices and when they'll come down, And as I

1177
01:05:10,760 --> 01:05:13,520
Speaker 2: do it, I realize that this cannot be. This will

1178
01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:16,040
Speaker 2: be more of the art you spoke about rather than

1179
01:05:16,880 --> 01:05:21,080
Speaker 2: a science. Do you have any idea of when that

1180
01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:23,680
Speaker 2: might happen? And you may not even be able to

1181
01:05:23,680 --> 01:05:26,000
Speaker 2: answer because of the position you hold as cheer of nurses,

1182
01:05:26,080 --> 01:05:28,720
Speaker 2: But I mean, do you think in ten years, for example,

1183
01:05:29,040 --> 01:05:32,400
Speaker 2: we will stop having such big power price increases? Or

1184
01:05:32,480 --> 01:05:35,280
Speaker 2: maybe fifteen years. I won't hold you to it either way,

1185
01:05:35,280 --> 01:05:39,000
Speaker 2: because I realized it's an impossible question, Stephen.

1186
01:05:39,080 --> 01:05:42,520
Speaker 11: I think as the regulator, we've made it as a pronouncement,

1187
01:05:42,560 --> 01:05:45,000
Speaker 11: so I'm not speaking out of terms. And I think

1188
01:05:45,080 --> 01:05:49,720
Speaker 11: even ESCOM itself has made it. This realization that going

1189
01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:52,080
Speaker 11: at the times in the days where we would have

1190
01:05:52,400 --> 01:05:56,320
Speaker 11: increases that are double digits, the increases that we're going

1191
01:05:56,400 --> 01:06:00,200
Speaker 11: to have in electricity have to be related to inflation

1192
01:06:00,520 --> 01:06:04,320
Speaker 11: and the single digit and and there's less the part

1193
01:06:04,440 --> 01:06:08,800
Speaker 11: where where where we also had to add a percentage

1194
01:06:08,840 --> 01:06:11,400
Speaker 11: or two. If you looked at the determinations, they're already

1195
01:06:11,400 --> 01:06:13,760
Speaker 11: indicating that the increases are going to be in your

1196
01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:17,400
Speaker 11: five for six percent range. And yes, the other part

1197
01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:20,400
Speaker 11: that they is that the other technologies like your coal,

1198
01:06:20,800 --> 01:06:26,040
Speaker 11: I mean your solar PV and wind have had the

1199
01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:32,320
Speaker 11: reduced costs. So there may be periods during within the

1200
01:06:32,360 --> 01:06:35,760
Speaker 11: next two to three years, periods where we would have

1201
01:06:36,160 --> 01:06:39,760
Speaker 11: cheap power, say during the day, we would have cheaper

1202
01:06:39,800 --> 01:06:45,520
Speaker 11: power because it is cheaper cheaply produced or produced at

1203
01:06:45,520 --> 01:06:48,720
Speaker 11: the lowest cost by your solar PV plants. And then yes,

1204
01:06:48,840 --> 01:06:52,280
Speaker 11: you would may have it at at the higher rates

1205
01:06:52,600 --> 01:06:55,640
Speaker 11: when the sun sets and you have to start kicking

1206
01:06:55,680 --> 01:06:59,040
Speaker 11: in the es comb generators and the disnel generators. But

1207
01:06:59,240 --> 01:07:01,880
Speaker 11: we will have and I mean other countries have already

1208
01:07:01,960 --> 01:07:07,680
Speaker 11: experienced that. In Australia, for instance, during the day, consumers

1209
01:07:07,680 --> 01:07:11,640
Speaker 11: are encouraged to do anything and everything they used to

1210
01:07:11,920 --> 01:07:14,440
Speaker 11: need to do with power and pay nothing for that

1211
01:07:14,560 --> 01:07:17,160
Speaker 11: power that they used during the day because of this

1212
01:07:17,280 --> 01:07:21,320
Speaker 11: advantage that has been brought by your solar PV systems

1213
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:24,000
Speaker 11: with the lowest cost production.

1214
01:07:24,320 --> 01:07:26,880
Speaker 2: It is it is amazing how the world's changed, isn't it.

1215
01:07:27,240 --> 01:07:29,560
Speaker 2: Your shape shift of this evening is timbani but cooler.

1216
01:07:29,600 --> 01:07:32,040
Speaker 2: The chair of nurses with us for another few minutes.

1217
01:07:32,080 --> 01:07:33,320
Speaker 2: It's ten minutes not to eight.

1218
01:07:34,960 --> 01:07:37,640
Speaker 14: The Money Show Stevel Crotes is brought to you by

1219
01:07:37,720 --> 01:07:42,040
Speaker 14: apsas CIB proud host of the Africa Impact Matters series

1220
01:07:42,120 --> 01:07:45,800
Speaker 14: podcast Perhaps and authorized FSP and registered credit provider.

1221
01:07:47,560 --> 01:07:49,880
Speaker 4: The Money Show Shape Shift.

1222
01:07:49,840 --> 01:07:52,320
Speaker 2: Eight minutes now to eighth the time your shape shifted

1223
01:07:52,360 --> 01:07:55,280
Speaker 2: this evening. The chair at nurser, the energy regulated Timbani

1224
01:07:55,320 --> 01:07:59,680
Speaker 2: but cooler Timbani. As Nursey, you've had a bit of

1225
01:07:59,720 --> 01:08:03,520
Speaker 2: a ride. There was a mistake in the tariff application.

1226
01:08:03,680 --> 01:08:06,600
Speaker 2: You apologized in Parliament for that and in other places

1227
01:08:06,640 --> 01:08:10,920
Speaker 2: it was a very difficult time for you. Does nurser

1228
01:08:11,040 --> 01:08:15,840
Speaker 2: have the resources, the people with the qualifications, the facilities

1229
01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:18,200
Speaker 2: and all of that kind of thing that it actually needs.

1230
01:08:18,240 --> 01:08:21,439
Speaker 2: I mean, I know some parts of government, I mean

1231
01:08:21,760 --> 01:08:23,800
Speaker 2: stat says say is a good example, doesn't get the

1232
01:08:23,840 --> 01:08:25,960
Speaker 2: money that it needs, and yet we expect a very

1233
01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:28,880
Speaker 2: high sort of level of work from it. Do you

1234
01:08:28,920 --> 01:08:30,080
Speaker 2: have what you need?

1235
01:08:31,960 --> 01:08:39,000
Speaker 11: NASA has the the stuff and the competencies that are

1236
01:08:39,040 --> 01:08:43,160
Speaker 11: required for what we have. But going forward, as we

1237
01:08:43,200 --> 01:08:46,559
Speaker 11: go into what the market would require, whether we need

1238
01:08:46,600 --> 01:08:49,360
Speaker 11: to understand the day I had into a day and

1239
01:08:49,720 --> 01:08:53,640
Speaker 11: balancing requirements NASA has to create those skills. But I

1240
01:08:53,680 --> 01:08:55,880
Speaker 11: would want to take you back to a time when

1241
01:08:56,439 --> 01:09:01,120
Speaker 11: we had no renewables and NASA was running the refit program.

1242
01:09:01,240 --> 01:09:05,920
Speaker 11: At that stage was there was no association, nobody us

1243
01:09:06,000 --> 01:09:10,760
Speaker 11: match as we now know, and we built that capability

1244
01:09:10,880 --> 01:09:16,000
Speaker 11: from nothing to where it is now. Weld recognized and

1245
01:09:16,720 --> 01:09:26,280
Speaker 11: also really reflected across many areas, our solo, TV, wind

1246
01:09:26,920 --> 01:09:30,960
Speaker 11: and the hydro industries. We also believe that even with

1247
01:09:31,080 --> 01:09:33,120
Speaker 11: the market and what is going to be required for

1248
01:09:33,320 --> 01:09:35,240
Speaker 11: us going forward, we are going to get to that

1249
01:09:35,360 --> 01:09:38,599
Speaker 11: stage by building these resources. At this stage, I think

1250
01:09:38,680 --> 01:09:41,760
Speaker 11: there's no South African entity that can also claim to

1251
01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:45,160
Speaker 11: have all that is required to run the market. We

1252
01:09:45,200 --> 01:09:48,599
Speaker 11: are all going to land, but we have a good

1253
01:09:48,760 --> 01:09:51,800
Speaker 11: history and the good reputation that we've done it with

1254
01:09:51,920 --> 01:09:54,479
Speaker 11: renewables and we'll be able to do it with the market,

1255
01:09:54,560 --> 01:09:57,519
Speaker 11: and we've done it with the nuclear and many other

1256
01:09:57,720 --> 01:10:00,280
Speaker 11: things that had happened in this country before. I am

1257
01:10:00,320 --> 01:10:02,080
Speaker 11: confident that will be able to do this.

1258
01:10:02,680 --> 01:10:04,800
Speaker 2: There are also other countries that have done this. Some

1259
01:10:04,840 --> 01:10:07,240
Speaker 2: of them, I mean I remember the California powered prices.

1260
01:10:07,360 --> 01:10:10,080
Speaker 2: Some of them made huge mistakes and some of them

1261
01:10:10,080 --> 01:10:11,760
Speaker 2: got it right, I mean, are lots of places to

1262
01:10:11,840 --> 01:10:12,400
Speaker 2: learn from.

1263
01:10:13,360 --> 01:10:17,519
Speaker 11: Yes, we have that welfare of mistakes that have been

1264
01:10:17,560 --> 01:10:20,920
Speaker 11: made and the succes successes, but we then have to

1265
01:10:21,640 --> 01:10:25,400
Speaker 11: customize them and make them fit into our own environment.

1266
01:10:25,520 --> 01:10:29,920
Speaker 11: We have the power stations that we have just built

1267
01:10:30,479 --> 01:10:32,559
Speaker 11: and that have to still run, so we may have

1268
01:10:32,680 --> 01:10:38,760
Speaker 11: to have some artificial market running around them. But that's

1269
01:10:38,800 --> 01:10:40,800
Speaker 11: what we have and we are going to make it work.

1270
01:10:40,880 --> 01:10:43,639
Speaker 11: But what must happen at the end of it all

1271
01:10:43,760 --> 01:10:48,640
Speaker 11: is that we must get the lowest possible production of

1272
01:10:49,760 --> 01:10:55,080
Speaker 11: electricity and therefore the lowest costs for the consumers of electricity.

1273
01:10:55,560 --> 01:10:58,120
Speaker 11: If this market and this change is not going to

1274
01:10:58,160 --> 01:11:02,160
Speaker 11: achieve that, then we still have to carry on twacking

1275
01:11:02,240 --> 01:11:05,720
Speaker 11: it till we get to this desired answer of the

1276
01:11:05,760 --> 01:11:07,600
Speaker 11: lowest possible cost of electricity.

1277
01:11:08,800 --> 01:11:11,880
Speaker 2: There's been often, you know, a question has come when

1278
01:11:11,960 --> 01:11:14,479
Speaker 2: would load shedding end? And load shedding has ended and

1279
01:11:14,560 --> 01:11:17,280
Speaker 2: sended some time ago now, and I know people have

1280
01:11:17,360 --> 01:11:21,240
Speaker 2: been very careful to not say it will never happen again,

1281
01:11:21,439 --> 01:11:24,720
Speaker 2: you know, and I understand why, whether it's the electricity

1282
01:11:24,760 --> 01:11:27,479
Speaker 2: minister or escum. Let me put the question to you

1283
01:11:27,520 --> 01:11:30,160
Speaker 2: in this way, is the chair of nurser. Are you

1284
01:11:30,320 --> 01:11:34,160
Speaker 2: comfortable that our electricity network, the whole thing is just

1285
01:11:34,240 --> 01:11:37,519
Speaker 2: a lot more resilient than it was, and is I mean,

1286
01:11:37,560 --> 01:11:40,479
Speaker 2: it would seem to me very unlikely that we would

1287
01:11:40,520 --> 01:11:41,759
Speaker 2: have load shedding again.

1288
01:11:44,200 --> 01:11:46,920
Speaker 11: I have to say that from what I see and

1289
01:11:47,000 --> 01:11:50,840
Speaker 11: the reports that we get provided, I am comfortable that

1290
01:11:51,240 --> 01:11:55,960
Speaker 11: load shedding is behind us. But what we must not

1291
01:11:56,120 --> 01:11:58,680
Speaker 11: do is get to that stage where we relax and

1292
01:11:58,720 --> 01:12:01,640
Speaker 11: we don't do the thing that got us to be

1293
01:12:01,840 --> 01:12:04,400
Speaker 11: into load shedding. We must continue doing the things that

1294
01:12:04,439 --> 01:12:07,240
Speaker 11: got us out of load shedding. And if we continue

1295
01:12:07,240 --> 01:12:10,240
Speaker 11: doing that, then yes, load shedding is behind us. Load

1296
01:12:10,240 --> 01:12:14,519
Speaker 11: shedding will be a very foreign where the two the

1297
01:12:14,600 --> 01:12:15,599
Speaker 11: keys that are growing up?

1298
01:12:15,640 --> 01:12:18,759
Speaker 2: Now, if I made him bunny. Normally, at this point

1299
01:12:18,800 --> 01:12:21,280
Speaker 2: in a shape shift to interview, we ask our guests

1300
01:12:21,280 --> 01:12:24,280
Speaker 2: what they do for fun, what they do to relax. Now,

1301
01:12:24,280 --> 01:12:26,040
Speaker 2: I'm going to ask you, but I must just tell

1302
01:12:26,080 --> 01:12:28,439
Speaker 2: you that it comes to the rule because so many

1303
01:12:28,439 --> 01:12:32,200
Speaker 2: people say, when I have time off, I spend the

1304
01:12:32,240 --> 01:12:34,400
Speaker 2: time with my family and I jog. So you're not

1305
01:12:34,439 --> 01:12:38,080
Speaker 2: allowed to say those two things. I don't know, if

1306
01:12:38,120 --> 01:12:41,080
Speaker 2: maybe you're the captain of your local skydiving team or

1307
01:12:41,160 --> 01:12:43,720
Speaker 2: something like that. What do you do to relax when

1308
01:12:43,720 --> 01:12:44,599
Speaker 2: you get a moment off.

1309
01:12:45,640 --> 01:12:47,840
Speaker 11: I'm not a captain of a skydiving team, but I

1310
01:12:47,880 --> 01:12:52,479
Speaker 11: do go boating. So I relaxed by getting into the

1311
01:12:52,640 --> 01:12:56,679
Speaker 11: Gemston Lake or well dam and just let my boat

1312
01:12:56,960 --> 01:12:59,920
Speaker 11: drift till the silence set.

1313
01:13:00,400 --> 01:13:02,760
Speaker 2: Are you do you mean? You mean yacht under sail

1314
01:13:02,920 --> 01:13:05,040
Speaker 2: or do you mean with an outboard motor or something?

1315
01:13:05,080 --> 01:13:09,120
Speaker 11: I adjust a small boat, not a I said, Jamston Lake.

1316
01:13:09,160 --> 01:13:11,920
Speaker 11: It only takes small boats and not your But.

1317
01:13:12,040 --> 01:13:16,799
Speaker 2: Is it sails? Is it sails or is it a motor?

1318
01:13:17,880 --> 01:13:18,840
Speaker 11: Is a motorizer?

1319
01:13:18,960 --> 01:13:21,640
Speaker 2: Okay? All right, yeah it must And I imagine you

1320
01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:23,439
Speaker 2: do feel that you're getting away from it.

1321
01:13:23,479 --> 01:13:29,759
Speaker 11: All is right in the middle of any nowhere and

1322
01:13:30,280 --> 01:13:33,280
Speaker 11: no load shedding and worries when you're in the middle

1323
01:13:33,320 --> 01:13:33,960
Speaker 11: of the death.

1324
01:13:34,160 --> 01:13:35,680
Speaker 2: And you can throw the phone in the in the

1325
01:13:35,680 --> 01:13:39,160
Speaker 2: water if you need to exact and traveling you go,

1326
01:13:39,360 --> 01:13:41,479
Speaker 2: I mean coffin Babara, I imagine might be a place

1327
01:13:41,520 --> 01:13:43,680
Speaker 2: you go to. Are there any other particular places you

1328
01:13:43,800 --> 01:13:44,320
Speaker 2: like to go to?

1329
01:13:45,880 --> 01:13:48,080
Speaker 11: I do like the places are on the coast, like

1330
01:13:48,160 --> 01:13:51,120
Speaker 11: your capes and Francis is one of my favorite places

1331
01:13:51,280 --> 01:13:51,599
Speaker 11: to be.

1332
01:13:53,720 --> 01:13:55,960
Speaker 2: Well, Timbani Bacola, It's been great to talk to you.

1333
01:13:56,080 --> 01:13:58,080
Speaker 2: Thank you. I ready to appreciate the time as I

1334
01:13:58,120 --> 01:14:00,439
Speaker 2: safe reported on you for many years, so it's great

1335
01:14:00,880 --> 01:14:02,479
Speaker 2: to sort of get a different side of you if

1336
01:14:02,520 --> 01:14:04,800
Speaker 2: you like, and to be our shape shift to the

1337
01:14:04,840 --> 01:14:07,960
Speaker 2: chairman of the National Energy Regulator of South Africa and

1338
01:14:08,040 --> 01:14:10,160
Speaker 2: Bunny but Cooler. So thank you very much indeed for

1339
01:14:10,200 --> 01:14:12,200
Speaker 2: your time on the Money Show tonight.

1340
01:14:14,200 --> 01:14:16,519
Speaker 14: The Money Show was Fever Crouts is brought to you

1341
01:14:16,680 --> 01:14:20,400
Speaker 14: by Apps, a cib proud host of the Africa Impact

1342
01:14:20,439 --> 01:14:25,040
Speaker 14: Matters series podcast, perhaps authorized THESP and registered credit provider.

1343
01:14:26,880 --> 01:14:30,240
Speaker 2: Well US market's turning positive tonight. Interest rate expectations are

1344
01:14:30,280 --> 01:14:32,920
Speaker 2: part of it. I suspect that dal Jones is up

1345
01:14:32,960 --> 01:14:35,679
Speaker 2: point nine percent, the Nasdaq is up point nine to four,

1346
01:14:36,040 --> 01:14:38,719
Speaker 2: the S and P five hundred is up point eight six.

1347
01:14:39,320 --> 01:14:41,000
Speaker 2: Of course, I'm not going to happen over the next

1348
01:14:41,200 --> 01:14:44,000
Speaker 2: twenty four hours, and I've been watching with a lot

1349
01:14:44,040 --> 01:14:47,760
Speaker 2: of interest. The latest claims to come from Vusimuzi kat Matlala.

1350
01:14:48,360 --> 01:14:50,960
Speaker 2: The claim he says that he, you know, gave five

1351
01:14:51,040 --> 01:14:54,240
Speaker 2: hundred thousand ran to Becky clearer the former police minister.

1352
01:14:54,640 --> 01:14:58,559
Speaker 2: I have to keep reminding myself that this is untested evidence.

1353
01:14:58,640 --> 01:15:01,679
Speaker 2: We don't know of any of the is true. There

1354
01:15:01,720 --> 01:15:04,360
Speaker 2: is still so much to come from these inquiries, and

1355
01:15:04,600 --> 01:15:07,160
Speaker 2: have a sneaking suspicion we're still going to be watching

1356
01:15:07,240 --> 01:15:10,080
Speaker 2: them until three years time. Well, we will be with

1357
01:15:10,200 --> 01:15:13,040
Speaker 2: you tomorrow. Aubrey is next. It's eight o'clock