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Speaker 1: And now The Money Show with Stephen credits on seven

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Speaker 1: oh two.

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Speaker 2: Let's walk little.

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Speaker 3: The Money Show with Stephen Curtis is brought to you

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Speaker 3: by ABS of Corporate and Investment banking, balancing economic growth

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Speaker 3: with ecosystems. That's how they're invested in your story. Good evening,

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Speaker 3: Welcome to the program. I'm Stephen Curtis, seven minutes after

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Speaker 3: six Wednesday evening. Kind of don't mind the feel of

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Speaker 3: the week so far. It's been quite volatile in terms

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Speaker 3: of metals prices. That's had a big impact on the JC.

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Speaker 3: Quite volatile too in the US. But overall, were getting

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Speaker 3: quite a few sort of reports from some of our companies.

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Speaker 3: Some of them have done quite nicely over the last

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Speaker 3: few months, some of them not so nicely. Some of

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Speaker 3: them battling a little bit, sappy, battling a little bit,

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Speaker 3: although they share price was up, I think mainly because

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Speaker 3: people were expecting it. I was fascinated by the Votercom

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Speaker 3: numbers which show once again people are leaving Votercom in

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Speaker 3: terms of prepaid customers. I suspect they're making quite a

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Speaker 3: lot of that money back in data though, because those

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Speaker 3: numbers are up again, and of course we're in the

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Speaker 3: middle of that transition, especially in South Africa for various reasons,

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Speaker 3: from phone calls to kind of WhatsApp course, which is

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Speaker 3: more and more I found myself making those calls. I

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Speaker 3: was really interested to watch the President speaking today at

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Speaker 3: that big ceremony to talk about the fact that South

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Speaker 3: Africa is now joining AFREKSHIM Bank, which really doesn't roll

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Speaker 3: off the tongue, but it's the African Import and Export Bank.

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Speaker 3: Very important developments. We get a lot more money and funding.

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Speaker 3: We'll speak to Villain funder Spay, the acting Deputy Director

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Speaker 3: General of Exports at the Department of Trade, Industry and

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Speaker 3: Competition about that in just a moment. The other big story,

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Speaker 3: of course, around a goer, and I got to a

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Speaker 3: point where there's so many, so much wrangling in the

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Speaker 3: United States about it, that I was sort of beginning

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Speaker 3: to not pay that much attention. If it happens, it happens,

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Speaker 3: I realized I should pay a little bit more. In

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Speaker 3: the end, the extension came. We also qualify under a goer,

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Speaker 3: but only until the end of December. It seemed to

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Speaker 3: me that the Trump administration, if I were them, if

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Speaker 3: I had their ideology and let me be clear, I

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Speaker 3: don't you would want to keep the power, and by

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Speaker 3: extending a go only into December, you kind of keep

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Speaker 3: the power. I can take you away from it, if

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Speaker 3: you see what I mean. And I couldn't help. But

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Speaker 3: wonder if those maybe a little bit of that. Maybe

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Speaker 3: there are other things going on as well. Lots of

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Speaker 3: discussion over the last little while around manufacturing. We've seen

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Speaker 3: all of the conversations around car manufacturing in South Africa

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Speaker 3: impact yesterday's saying they have to probably close down their

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Speaker 3: springs mill there in the packaging business. Arsenal Mittal. Of course,

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Speaker 3: I thought it would be important to just have a

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Speaker 3: look at the year ahead for the manufacturing economy. We'll

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Speaker 3: speak to takats or Sale or from ned Bank Commercial

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Speaker 3: Banking about that after the news bulletin, and then are

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Speaker 3: really looking forward to speaking to the Ministry of Small

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Speaker 3: Business Developments. Still into Bennie Abraham's We've tried to get

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Speaker 3: her on a several times. Things just haven't always worked out, logistics, etc.

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Speaker 3: She's at a big event tonight. It's in the Western Cape.

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Speaker 3: It's the Western Cape provincial government. The jac they've been

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Speaker 3: doing running a sort of capital matching program both helping

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Speaker 3: as small businesses and looking forward to speaking to the minister.

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Speaker 3: We've spoken about her several times on the show, but

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Speaker 3: never to her in that I can remember, and just

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Speaker 3: ask about the role that she's playing, how she's finding it,

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Speaker 3: what strategies work. I often kind of wonder if we

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Speaker 3: should not hear her voice more in debates around small business.

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Speaker 3: So I'm looking forward to that conversation. And then from

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Speaker 3: seven point thirty tonight, Adrian Mayzi, the founder and SEO

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Speaker 3: of Rand Capital Collection. They own the Starbucks license in

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Speaker 3: South Africa, but late for a Starbucks now maybe, but

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Speaker 3: I'm sure you have a view. And if you look

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Speaker 3: at some of the problems at the US branches have

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Speaker 3: had supply, chain isshes and all the rest, we don't

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Speaker 3: have those problems here, but I do want to ask

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Speaker 3: about running a coffee chain store coffee chain in South Africa.

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Speaker 3: Really looking forward to that conversation. It's always good to

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Speaker 3: hear from you tonight or no double one doua A

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Speaker 3: three seven two two one four four six O five

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Speaker 3: six seven and Voice notes this evening on seven to

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Speaker 3: two seven oh two one seven O two The l.

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Speaker 4: Show with Stephen krudis live on ninety two point seven

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Speaker 4: and one six FM, streaming on the Prime Media.

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Speaker 1: Plus NAP and DStv channel eight five six.

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Speaker 3: Well, two big events sort of involving other countries and

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Speaker 3: our economy today our official inclusion and the African Export

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Speaker 3: Import Bank and then the news overnight that a go

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Speaker 3: has been extended. Well, I suppose we should start rarely

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Speaker 3: with the ceremony today to launch our inclusion at the

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Speaker 3: African Export Import Bank, the President speaking there earlier today.

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Speaker 3: The bank now says we qualify for lending of up

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Speaker 3: to eight billion US dollars. Villam vunder spe is the

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Speaker 3: acting Deputy Director General of Exports at the Department of Trade,

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Speaker 3: Industry and Competition. Villain, good evening and thanks for your time.

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Speaker 3: Taken quite a long time to get to this point.

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Speaker 3: What advantages do we now get from being a part

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Speaker 3: of the bank.

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Speaker 5: Thank you and good evening and thank you for having

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Speaker 5: us well. The overall program will aim to inject capital

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Speaker 5: into our priority industrial projects. It will support export diversification.

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Speaker 5: It will also support with infrastructure development as well as

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Speaker 5: transformation initiatives. If we look in terms of deepening so

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Speaker 5: Africa's industrialization projects will be targeted that contributes to the

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Speaker 5: national industrial policy areas of decarbonization, diversification, and digitalization. Examples

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Speaker 5: of projects for example which could include it includes advanced manufacturing,

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Speaker 5: green industries, critical minerals, beneficiation, pharmaceuticals, and the digital economy.

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Speaker 5: So I think that is in terms of deepening our

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Speaker 5: industrial projects. Support will also be sort for projects in

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Speaker 5: and development of special economic zones and industrial parks. I

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Speaker 5: think that's an important area for us in terms of

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Speaker 5: our industrial policy. And ano very important element was also

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Speaker 5: mentioned is that the Bank will provide support through it's

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Speaker 5: what it's called Inclusive Development Support Program, which will fund

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Speaker 5: it Transformation in the count that will look at the

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Speaker 5: allocating funding for projects to enable black businesses and entrepreneurs

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Speaker 5: to access finance, build assets and participate in the strategic

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Speaker 5: sectors of our economy.

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Speaker 3: And there are lots of projects and we all know

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Speaker 3: there are lots of parts of our economy that needs

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Speaker 3: the money. Three billion dollars of the eight billion goes

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Speaker 3: straight to the Transformation Fund. Why there specifically, I mean

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Speaker 3: it's a big chunk.

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Speaker 5: I think that's a big element. But I think that

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Speaker 5: was also an important contribution of the AFFLIS and Bank

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Speaker 5: to contribute to the issue of transformation in South Africa

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Speaker 5: and to make a practical contribution in terms of making

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Speaker 5: funding available to black businesses, to really support entrepreneurships and

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Speaker 5: as well as through as indicated, build their assets and

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Speaker 5: participate in strategic sectors of the economy. And that will

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Speaker 5: be then linked in with broader funding initiative linked to

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Speaker 5: the Transformation Fund and initiative, So it will be one

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Speaker 5: of the components which I think contributes to the Transformation

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Speaker 5: Funds overall framework of funding and support that it will provide.

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Speaker 3: Does the Fund have the people who will make the

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Speaker 3: decisions about where the money goes yet, as I understand

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Speaker 3: that they're going to be appointed by the minister. Does

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Speaker 3: it have the machinery to do all of this? I mean,

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Speaker 3: I realized it's early days for both our inclusion in

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Speaker 3: the Bank and the Transformation Fund, but does it have

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Speaker 3: all of the machinery to do that?

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Speaker 5: The Transformation Fund the process in terms of the preparations

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Speaker 5: for the launch that is underway, and I think it

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Speaker 5: is at an advanced stage and I think we should

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Speaker 5: probably be communicating We'll look for the details in the

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Speaker 5: near future around that. I think what is important though,

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Speaker 5: is that the trans in terms of the Transformation Fund,

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Speaker 5: that the Effects and Bank has put its hand up

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Speaker 5: and that it is allocating funds for that and that

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Speaker 5: it is already I think engaging certain aspects of the

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Speaker 5: Transformation Funds preparations and readiness so as indicated. I think

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Speaker 5: the preson of Effics and Bank indicated in terms of

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Speaker 5: the country program that they were not just for the launch.

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Speaker 5: They've started preparations so that practical implementation can start very strom.

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Speaker 3: I do have to get to this point, Philam, and

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry, but I just want to make sure I

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Speaker 3: understand it. The money goes the three brilliant round that

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Speaker 3: goes in the Transformation Fund. Is the board of that

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Speaker 3: fund going to be appointed by the Minister and will

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Speaker 3: they decide which projects get funding? Is that how it's

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Speaker 3: going to work at this point.

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Speaker 5: So the indications are that the Transformation Funds, once it's

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Speaker 5: launched and the relevant governance structures have been put in

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Speaker 5: place by the Minister, that they will then be assessing

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Speaker 5: various projects and that they will then be linking those

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Speaker 5: projects with potential funders such as the Effects and banker

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Speaker 5: is one of the options, and they will also look

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Speaker 5: at various options in terms of whether blended instruments for example,

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Speaker 5: that might be used, and those kind of elements of it.

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Speaker 5: So that is the understanding at the moment. But I

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Speaker 5: must also speak under correction that I'm not the specialists

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Speaker 5: on the transformation fund.

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Speaker 3: No, sure, I understand, all right, thank you. We've also

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Speaker 3: brought shares in the bank where we have shares. I'm

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Speaker 3: talking now about the African Export Import Bank. We have

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Speaker 3: shares in the bank. Did we have to put money

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Speaker 3: in together those shares? It would make sense if we

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Speaker 3: did so.

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Speaker 5: Originally several years ago through the Export Credit Insurance Corporation

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Speaker 5: of South Africa, which is one of the TTIC entities

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Speaker 5: in that South Africa's insurance enterprise, which supports political and

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Speaker 5: commercial risks, cover for key projects and for exporters, that

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Speaker 5: by what was called Class B shares into the Afflicts

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Speaker 5: and Bank, and those shares have remained with the Afflicts

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Speaker 5: and Bank, and through our accession which took place today,

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Speaker 5: those shares will be converted to Class A shareholding, which

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Speaker 5: is sovereign shares which have a greater say in the

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Speaker 5: management of the bank. That process the but it does

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Speaker 5: not require us to buy any additional shares, the conversion

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Speaker 5: of those shares does not require additional costs associated with that.

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Speaker 5: So in many ways, what we're doing is the existing

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Speaker 5: shares that we have will just basically as more valuable

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Speaker 5: meaning to them, so to speak. So in many ways

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Speaker 5: it's the positive utilization of our existing shares within that organization.

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Speaker 3: The Bank's been operating for a long time, and I

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Speaker 3: realized obviously there was a very important reason we didn't

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Speaker 3: join it for a long time, because it was during

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Speaker 3: the Aparthe eight era. We're now the fifty fourth member,

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Speaker 3: which Fillam basically makes us the last member on the continent.

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Speaker 3: Why did it take us so long to get to

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Speaker 3: this point?

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Speaker 5: I think what is important about it is that I

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Speaker 5: think there was various developments which took place through the years.

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Speaker 5: But I think what is very important is that, particularly

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Speaker 5: under the current seventh administration, that it became a strong

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Speaker 5: parity for us to become a member after a fax

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Speaker 5: some bent and I think through the various initiatives which

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Speaker 5: was undertaken and supported by both the Minister and eventually Cabinet,

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Speaker 5: and then supported by Parliament as all, we have managed

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Speaker 5: to finalize our accession process.

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Speaker 3: Will thank you very much, indeed for the time. Villain

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Speaker 3: Funder of Spee is the acting Deputy Director General for

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Speaker 3: Exports at the Department of Trade, Industry and Competition. Eighteen

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Speaker 3: minutes after six well while that was happening today, overnight

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Speaker 3: confirmation that the US President Donald Trump actually signed the

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Speaker 3: African Growth and Opportunity Acting to law for another year,

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Speaker 3: well until December. That's despite all the diplomatic difficulties that

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Speaker 3: we've had with the Trump administration and the various Trump

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Speaker 3: administration comments about Africa and some of the other countries

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Speaker 3: on our continent. Peter Worthington is a senior e columnist

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Speaker 3: at abs A CRB. Peter Good Evening, So agous goes

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Speaker 3: through as I understand that we still face what I

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Speaker 3: suppose we would call the Liberation Day tariffs. Does it

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Speaker 3: goa really help our companies much considering.

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Speaker 6: That in my opinion, not really. I mean, the difference

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Speaker 6: is between prior to the Liberation Day tariffs. If we take,

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Speaker 6: for example, the motor vehicle industry, the GOA preferences let

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Speaker 6: us export vehicles that are zero percent tariff, whereas under

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Speaker 6: MFN it would.

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Speaker 3: Have been two and a half percent.

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Speaker 6: So I go with something then. But the fact is

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Speaker 6: these liberation or so called reciprocal tariffs have raised the

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Speaker 6: overall tariff level considerably, and we're still going to be

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Speaker 6: facing these reciprocal terraffs in the section two three two terraffs.

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Speaker 6: So I don't actually think it's going to be a

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Speaker 6: huge advantage to us. Now that we have seen the

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Speaker 6: extension of a GOA for one year and inclusion of

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Speaker 6: South Africa at least for another year.

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Speaker 3: I mean the same must be true of so many

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Speaker 3: other countries. The SUTU has a huge tariff to pay

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Speaker 3: as well, for example. I mean it does sort of

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Speaker 3: the whole thing weakens gomst below the waterline. You wonder

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Speaker 3: what the point is.

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Speaker 6: In a way, I agree with you, Steve, and I

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Speaker 6: think it makes sort of the AGOA trade preference regime

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Speaker 6: in some ways redundant. It's all been superseded by US

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Speaker 6: raiff policy in twenty twenty five. It's a nice sort

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Speaker 6: of little symbol that the US is willing to continue

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Speaker 6: to engage and I hope for South Africa's situation it

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Speaker 6: means that they'll be willing to continue to negotiate on

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Speaker 6: a bilateral trade deal with US, But in and of itself,

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Speaker 6: this doesn't make a great deal of difference post the

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Speaker 6: events of twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 3: The one sort of ray of hope might be that

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Speaker 3: if Trump's tariffs do roll back, and I mean in

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Speaker 3: some cases they have, or if we sort of look

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Speaker 3: three years ahead, if a go it gets extended each

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Speaker 3: of those years, and whoever takes over after that, things

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Speaker 3: could kind of go back to how they were in

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Speaker 3: terms of a go at least if it's still alive

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Speaker 3: by then. I mean that I don't know if that's

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Speaker 3: really realistic now that I think of it, Peter.

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Speaker 6: Well, listen, I mean, I think we can hope. And

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Speaker 6: the fact is is that the extension of a GOA

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Speaker 6: and South Africa's continuing an inclusion means we're still in

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Speaker 6: the game, although the game has kind of gone against

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Speaker 6: Africa and a lot of other countries over the last year.

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Speaker 6: You know, there are still a lot of uncertainties. We

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Speaker 6: don't know what's going to happen with the US Supreme

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Speaker 6: Court rulings on Trump's tariffs. We don't know what the

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Speaker 6: response of the administration will be if the Supreme Court

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Speaker 6: in the US rules that the way he approached these

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Speaker 6: tariff increases was not lawful, so there's still a lot

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Speaker 6: of uncertainty going forward. But you know, listen, I mean,

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Speaker 6: we haven't been kicked out despite all of the things

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Speaker 6: that we've done to poke the bear. So we'll just

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Speaker 6: see how it plays out. My real hope here is

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Speaker 6: that the South African administration and the US administration are

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Speaker 6: sincere in the verbal stuff that they've said about wanting

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Speaker 6: to negotiate a bilateral trade agreement, which is the way

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Speaker 6: the US seems to be preferring to go in respective

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Speaker 6: trade policy these days.

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Speaker 3: I mean, what's so interesting about that is that you'll

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Speaker 3: see a lot of noise from Trump about a particular country.

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Speaker 3: See you're enjoined by some other guests there, Peter on

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Speaker 3: the line. That's quite all right, happens at the time

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Speaker 3: of day. They're very welcome. So you have a situation

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Speaker 3: where Trump will often sort of up the ante before something.

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Speaker 3: He did it with his nominee for the share of

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Speaker 3: the US Federal Reserve as well, and then actually you'll

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Speaker 3: find there is a trade deal or it's not as

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Speaker 3: bad he said, or whatever it is. Sometimes wonder if

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Speaker 3: behind the scenes someone actually is making real Progres. It's

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Speaker 3: just impossible to know until a deal is signed, and

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Speaker 3: even then we could have another liberation day and any

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Speaker 3: deal is off the table, which is what makes all

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Speaker 3: of this so impossible.

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Speaker 6: Yes, I mean we've got unpredictability from the US side.

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Speaker 6: We also have unpredictability in some ways from the South

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Speaker 6: African side, where we are such to out to the

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Speaker 6: US that the Iranians have participated in enable exercises even

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Speaker 6: though we say we told them not to. So I

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Speaker 6: think there's a lot of uncertainty going forward. But the

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Speaker 6: thing is, there does appear to be a bit of

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Speaker 6: a willingness to keep talking, and to my mind, amidst

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Speaker 6: all of this uncertainty, that's a very positive thing. And

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Speaker 6: let's hope that both sides recognize that we have an

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Speaker 6: interest in working together and that cooler minds will prevail.

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Speaker 3: So all of that is true, and obviously we do

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Speaker 3: have an interest in working together and for the foreseeable

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Speaker 3: future of the US is the world's biggest economy. In

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Speaker 3: the meantime, though, it seems to me, just from my

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Speaker 3: vantage point in Santon, that bits of the world are

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Speaker 3: changing very quickly. We're getting a lot more goods coming

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Speaker 3: in from China, particularly cause, for example, our relationship with

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Speaker 3: other countries is beginning to change. We haven't seen the

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Speaker 3: Coalition government's policies expressed in foreign policy yet that that

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Speaker 3: might happen. If Trump continues with an America First policy

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Speaker 3: to the detriment of other trade partners, well things could

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Speaker 3: change almost around the United States. My point is that

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Speaker 3: all of this is not necessarily to the long term

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Speaker 3: benefit of the US.

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Speaker 4: I would agree with that.

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Speaker 6: And one thing is, you know, we should keep continuing

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Speaker 6: to negotiate and try and strike a good bilateral trade

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Speaker 6: agreement with the US, but that shouldn't stop us from

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Speaker 6: looking at sort of very actively seeking to diversify our

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Speaker 6: export markets and our economic relationships with other countries. One

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Speaker 6: of the things that I've been quite interested in is

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Speaker 6: whether China's offer to extend kind of zero tariff on

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Speaker 6: one hundred percent of product lines to all countries in

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Speaker 6: Africa is sufficient to offset the hit that we're going

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Speaker 6: to take from twenty twenty five US tariff moves. And

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Speaker 6: one of the things that I haven't had much indication

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Speaker 6: of progress on is where South Africa's discussions with China

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Speaker 6: are on implementing this offer, but we could stand to

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Speaker 6: benefit quite nicely. I think if we can actually finalize

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Speaker 6: those bilateral negotiations to secure this one hundred percent zero

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Speaker 6: teriff offer from China, we need to be thinking very

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Speaker 6: strategically about our trade policy, and we need to be

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Speaker 6: looking to expand export markets everywhere and not think that

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Speaker 6: we're going to rely only on the US. But at

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Speaker 6: the same time, we can't just to our trade relationship.

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Speaker 7: With the US.

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Speaker 6: Over the railing.

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Speaker 3: Peter, thanks for your time. I hope that your other

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Speaker 3: guests in the room with you still gets they walk

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Speaker 3: at this late hour.

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Speaker 6: Let's hope.

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Speaker 3: Well, I'm with the dog, Peter. Thank you. Senior economists

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Speaker 3: at absincy Abby twenty six minutes after six the Money

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Speaker 3: Show the Market Chris Stewart, the portfolio manager at ninety one.

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Speaker 3: I don't know if you've got your hound with you.

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Speaker 3: Good evening. Votercom's update afterday quarterly updates, and it still

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Speaker 3: seems they're losing some pre paid customers but maybe making

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Speaker 3: it up on the data side.

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Speaker 7: Yes, good evening, Steven.

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Speaker 8: I mean it's I think it's certainly a sign of

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Speaker 8: just how competitive the prepaid market is right now.

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Speaker 7: Prepaid revenue going down by almost four percent over the.

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Speaker 8: Period, and that I guess driving a fairly lackluster top

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Speaker 8: line number for the South African operations in aggregate. And

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Speaker 8: you know, we've seen the significant disruption by some of

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Speaker 8: the Envy and O's in the prepaid market. You know,

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Speaker 8: Capitech comes to mind with their Capitech Connect offering, you know,

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Speaker 8: really coming in and setting that market alike with regard

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Speaker 8: to pricing and competition.

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Speaker 7: You know, if you're operating an Envy.

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Speaker 8: And O out of a bank, you don't really operate

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Speaker 8: a telco company to make telco profits. You're trying to

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Speaker 8: get your customers into your ecosystem and using that in

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Speaker 8: order to cross sell them for the banking services. So

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Speaker 8: you've got some pretty aggressive competitors coming out there. That's

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Speaker 8: making life quite difficult within the prepaid market. And if

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Speaker 8: you look at some of the new EQUASI regulations coming

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Speaker 8: in with regard to compulsory rollover of seven day bundles,

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Speaker 8: so you can't have expiry on seven day bundles, I

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Speaker 8: think that's going to further drive margins.

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Speaker 7: Down in the prepaid market in South Africa.

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Speaker 9: Other elements of the South.

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Speaker 8: African business doing a little bit better, particularly outside of

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Speaker 8: the mobile business, and you know, the non South African

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Speaker 8: operations Egypt showing particularly strong growth still and the international

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Speaker 8: business is driven by particularly Mozambique and the DRC going

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Speaker 8: okay over this period as well.

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Speaker 7: And as a result of that, you know, the market having.

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Speaker 8: A fairly neutral reaction to both comes trailing update today.

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Speaker 3: The markets didn't seem to mind Sappy's updates. I mean,

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Speaker 3: despite the fact they're taking hits in various sectors for

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Speaker 3: various reasons, oversupply in most of their markets, the share

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Speaker 3: price didn't tumble at all.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, but for demand over apply operating losses guidance that

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Speaker 8: the next quart is going to be worse due to

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Speaker 8: accombination of pricing in the market as well as some

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Speaker 8: supply disruptions due to shutdown, you know, increasing their debt,

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Speaker 8: but you know, at the moment, still relatively comfortable with

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Speaker 8: regard to reset covenants, and possibly the market's reaction today

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Speaker 8: a reaction to less stress on the balance sheet than

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Speaker 8: perhaps had been fared. But let's not forget the stock

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Speaker 8: is still done twenty one percent year to date, and

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Speaker 8: that's only about twenty four trading days, so you know

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Speaker 8: it has had a pretty pile of start to the year,

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Speaker 8: and as a result of that, small bounced that it

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Speaker 8: doesn't mean too much.

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Speaker 3: I don't think there's so many different elements going on

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Speaker 3: in the United States at the moment, but the markets

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Speaker 3: do seem to be a little jittery, particularly in the

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Speaker 3: software space linked as opposed to what's happening in AI.

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Speaker 3: You keep kind of expecting it to get back some

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Speaker 3: of its momentum, but it doesn't seem to be for

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Speaker 3: the moment.

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Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean, the US market is in the rare position,

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Speaker 8: certainly in recent years of having been one of the

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Speaker 8: worst performing markets here. Today you've seen some pretty spectacular

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Speaker 8: performances from equity markets so far this year. Our own

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Speaker 8: market included a number of emerging markets posting some very

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Speaker 8: very strong gains and some of the developed markets in

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Speaker 8: detailing strong gains as well. US lagging tech has been

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Speaker 8: a problem space. You know, you saw an announcement from

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Speaker 8: Anthropic AI yesterday talking about certain AI tools that might

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Speaker 8: be used to replace some of the software systems that

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Speaker 8: are used within the legal and financial services fraternities, and

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Speaker 8: you know that getting the software stocks in anything related

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Speaker 8: to software stocks selling off quite sharply, and then you've

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Speaker 8: got the sort of bigger tech stocks. The market sort

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Speaker 8: of torn between you know, reasonably robust growth numbers right now,

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Speaker 8: but massive, massive expenditure numbers on AI and question marks

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Speaker 8: over whether that's going to Ultimately it turned out to

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Speaker 8: be an investment well spent on, an investment upon which

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Speaker 8: they're not.

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Speaker 7: Going to get an appropriate return.

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Speaker 8: So you know, you see the nastack down another percent

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Speaker 8: of today down into negative territory year to date as well.

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Speaker 8: So quite a lot of nervous is there, and also

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Speaker 8: compounded I think by some fairly modest macro data.

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Speaker 7: You saw new car sales, you saw.

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Speaker 8: Mortgage applications and in the job station in the US today,

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Speaker 8: and none of those were particularly we're particularly enterprising, not

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Speaker 8: enough to get the market going anyway.

439
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,520
Speaker 3: Chris Stewart, thanks so much, Portfolio manager at ninety one.

440
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,560
Speaker 3: Just on six thirty on The Money Show, The Laney Show.

441
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:40,239
Speaker 4: With Stephen Cruds Live on ninety two point seven and

442
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,600
Speaker 4: one o six a FM, streaming on the Prime Media Plus.

443
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,560
Speaker 2: NAP and DStv channel eight five six.

444
00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,440
Speaker 3: Eighteen minutes now to seven the time. Well, the last

445
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 3: few months there's been a sort of chain of warnings

446
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:56,040
Speaker 3: about manufacturing in all sorts of ways. So a British

447
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 3: American tobacco they said late last year they'll close their

448
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,359
Speaker 3: last tobacco industry here Arsenal Mitziles starting their long steel

449
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,720
Speaker 3: business impacts it yesterday. It'll have to close this packaging

450
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 3: plant in Springs. Sort of anxiety. I think about what

451
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:14,119
Speaker 3: could happen to the car industry for various reasons. Takatso

452
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:17,840
Speaker 3: Slow is the senior manager for manufacturing for net Bank

453
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,120
Speaker 3: Commercial Banking at takatso good evening, Thanks for your time.

454
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,200
Speaker 3: I mean, is the picture for manufacturing in South Africa

455
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:25,920
Speaker 3: as bleak as it sometimes looks?

456
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 10: Firstly, Stephen, thanks for the opportunity. I think when we

457
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 10: say bleak as it looks, we just need to understand

458
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 10: the opportunity behind it as well as the challenges. It

459
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 10: has been challenging over the past few years in terms

460
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 10: of what we've been facing and what do I mean

461
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:46,359
Speaker 10: about this infrastructure issues element around the cost rising. It

462
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,920
Speaker 10: has been difficult. However, opportunities still exists as this still

463
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:51,640
Speaker 10: is the bedbone or private economy.

464
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 3: In other words, there's still ways that we can actually

465
00:24:56,359 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 3: use manufacturing and we can still have a big impact.

466
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,199
Speaker 10: I mean, Stephen, think about it. On a day to

467
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 10: day basis, Any and everything that we do interact in

468
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 10: some form or another with manufacturing. And why am I

469
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:11,919
Speaker 10: saying this is that end of the day, we do

470
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 10: have elements of employment comes from manufacturing, driving the economy

471
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 10: comes from manufacturing. Shaping of the economies or should I

472
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 10: say even the societies themselves is manufacturing generally driven. So

473
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 10: there is opportunity in that. So by us saying gleek

474
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:27,640
Speaker 10: will be remissed by just saying that.

475
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 3: No, sure, okay, So where do the opportunities lie? Where

476
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,719
Speaker 3: do you think you know? Is where are the areas

477
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 3: we should be focusing on. Let me put it another way,

478
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,320
Speaker 3: where are the areas that we should sort of be

479
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 3: looking at investing in manufacturing in South Africa given the

480
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 3: sort of global context we're in.

481
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:49,160
Speaker 10: So from a global contest perspective, it's that we are

482
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 10: having the elements of infrastructure is a challenge. We are

483
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 10: having elements of enage in some areas are still a challenge,

484
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 10: but we ask them from time to time that manufacturers

485
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 10: are finding a way to combat that. So in terms

486
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 10: of how or were to actually invest, let's enable the

487
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 10: manufacturers to be able to get these things going. What

488
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 10: do I mean by this? On a day to day

489
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 10: we do all the various clients, of which some would

490
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 10: need heavy lifting in terms of capex, heavy lifting in

491
00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,439
Speaker 10: terms of working capital. It means just equipping them to

492
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,919
Speaker 10: ensure their remain competitive in the ever changing industry or

493
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 10: infrastructures that we're facing.

494
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:28,679
Speaker 3: Within the industry, you talk about the provisional services, I

495
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 3: mean load shelling was a major issue. The fact that

496
00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 3: it's ended has that made any difference. I realized that

497
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,719
Speaker 3: there's so many problems in local government that those problems

498
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 3: can maybe take over in a way.

499
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 10: So the question is a quite overcome by virtue of

500
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,679
Speaker 10: as much as we say it has ended, it is

501
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 10: not not necessarily a holistic element. Some manufacturers are still

502
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,879
Speaker 10: facing the challenge of the energy aspect, so we might

503
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,399
Speaker 10: still have supply at the cost of that particular supply

504
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 10: has increased this impact, of course, the margins on it

505
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 10: day to day, and as you well spoke earlier on

506
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 10: about which companies are closing, some are having to go

507
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 10: there to by virtue of it's unsustainable to run the

508
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,159
Speaker 10: business because of the cost or because of the demand

509
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 10: that exists in the market. So yes, the challenges continue

510
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 10: even though the locating has been reduced in the country.

511
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 3: We keep trying to compete with the rest of the world,

512
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 3: and there's a sort of narrative that no one can

513
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 3: compete with China, you know, is that right?

514
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,439
Speaker 10: As for nobody can compete with China, I think we

515
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 10: need to also take a bit of a step back

516
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 10: as to what are we competing with, Who we are

517
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 10: as a country, what defines our actual market. Because us

518
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,880
Speaker 10: competing with for lack of a better way, it's much

519
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 10: more affordable inputs coming into the country, it is creating

520
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 10: a bit of a vacuum when it comes to demand. However,

521
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 10: we need to focus on the element of what we

522
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:54,439
Speaker 10: can do to be more competitive. And one thing I

523
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 10: want to point out is South Africa doesn't have an

524
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 10: issue with capacity. It doesn't have an issue with capable

525
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 10: ability or that ability to do. The challenge is where

526
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:05,680
Speaker 10: do we take it to? And that's where China is

527
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 10: taking away some of the elements. However, as I said,

528
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 10: to draw im back to our own strengths as a country,

529
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:12,719
Speaker 10: what do we do best and where can we take it?

530
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 3: Do you think there's enough thoughts going into what do

531
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:18,680
Speaker 3: we do best and how to make the most out

532
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 3: of it? I mean, is there enough sort of strategic

533
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 3: thinking going on we're able to spot the opportunities that

534
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 3: they are.

535
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,160
Speaker 10: Oh and you're speaking quite well when you say strategic

536
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 10: opportunities or enough conversations. We've had a pleasurements and to

537
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 10: have conversations with industry as to where are we going,

538
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 10: where is the opportunity, how do we invest? Which is

539
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 10: why generally we make it a point that we understand

540
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 10: the industry, we understand the markets that we play in.

541
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 10: So there is opportunities, there is conversations happening. However, sometimes,

542
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 10: as they say, Roma's not built overnight, it takes time

543
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 10: for us to get there. However, with what's been happening,

544
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 10: be being caught in a multitude of external sectors that

545
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 10: are causing us to actually be a better backfoot in

546
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 10: terms of competing against the rest of the world.

547
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 3: Takatzl Selo. Thank you, senior manager for manufacturing for net

548
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 3: Bank Commercial Banking.

549
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 11: The Money Show, Stephen Ruts is brought to you by

550
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 11: Absolve Corporate and Investment Banking. Balancing economic growth with ecosystems.

551
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 11: That's how they've invested in.

552
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 2: Your story.

553
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 3: Ten minutes to seventh time. The JC announcing tonight the

554
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 3: results of its collaboration with the Western Cape provincial government.

555
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 3: The two have been matching each other in terms of

556
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,479
Speaker 3: helping smaller firms access capital. The initiative has been running

557
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 3: around the country. Around two and a half thousand firms

558
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 3: have taken part so far. One of the people at

559
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 3: the event tonight is the Minister of Small Business Development,

560
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 3: Stella in Deberny Abrahams, and I'm very pleased to tell

561
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 3: you that she joins me now on the Money Show. Minister.

562
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 3: Good evening, I'm very glad that we're able to speak

563
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 3: to you on the show tonight. How important are collaborations

564
00:29:55,960 --> 00:30:00,240
Speaker 3: like this between the JAS provincial government and helping to

565
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 3: develop small and medium enterprises.

566
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 12: Good evening, Steven, and good evening to all the listeners.

567
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,479
Speaker 12: I must say this is very critical that we have

568
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 12: partnerships with the private sector. And of course you will recall,

569
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 12: Steven that when we launched our nationally Integrated Smaller Enterprise

570
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 12: Development Framework, we identified forpulas and one of those pillars

571
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 12: was the one that talked to public private partnerships. Was

572
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 12: this government we can't do it alone, and this is

573
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 12: why it was an exciting journey that we've traveled with

574
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 12: the JSE since the beginning of our partnership at three

575
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 12: years back.

576
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 3: You've been in the position of Small Business Development Minister

577
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 3: for quite a while, well a little while now a

578
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 3: few years Minister. I mean from everything that you've seen,

579
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 3: your conversations with people, the programs that you've been involved in,

580
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 3: which strategies do you think are being the most effective

581
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 3: in helping develop small businesses in South Africa?

582
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 12: Well, if you've been an exciting four years to be

583
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,719
Speaker 12: precise at the time that I've been here, but of

584
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 12: course having had engagements with the ecosystem players who begin

585
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 12: to pick up certain gaps that I felt are important

586
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 12: that I really contribute towards too. That's why earlier on

587
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 12: I spoke of the mis set, the National Integrated Small

588
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 12: Enterprise Government Framework, because if we are to coordinate the

589
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 12: work that is being done on entrepreneurship, we've got to

590
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 12: make sure that there's a clear framework that guides the

591
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 12: partnerships that we must have, so that coordination has to

592
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 12: be informed and we had to agree with certain things

593
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 12: that we must do. That's the first thing that we

594
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 12: managed to do. And of course, Dvin, you will recall

595
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 12: that when I came to the department, there was no

596
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,959
Speaker 12: founding legislation. We just had the Businesses Act that was

597
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 12: transferred in twenty twenty one, and then we relied on

598
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 12: the National Small Enterprise Act that was old belonging to

599
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 12: the Department of Trade Industry. So we developed our own

600
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 12: legislation that gives the Department some authority. And amongst those

601
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 12: things that we're trying to address in the National Small

602
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 12: Enterprise Act, what's the establishment of the Ombad's Office. Because

603
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 12: as we engage with the ecosystem, we listen to entrepreneurs

604
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 12: complaining and talking about how challenging it is for them

605
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 12: that at times they are victimized by those that are

606
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 12: contracting them. And then we said, let that be an

607
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,959
Speaker 12: orbas that can represent the voice of the entrepreneurs and

608
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 12: be able to issue whatever penalties that are issued. Another

609
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 12: thing that was raised was the fact that the support

610
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 12: mechanism or instruments that are provided by the Department are

611
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 12: not coordinated. You go to what used to be Seeder,

612
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 12: you have to apply for a business plan and all

613
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 12: the non financial support, and when you go to SIFA,

614
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 12: which was our funding agency. Then they will tell look

615
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 12: to this business plan is not approved. But there was

616
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 12: no coordination in terms of priorities. So we then said,

617
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 12: let's manage those three entities. And then we had we

618
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 12: established what we call today's seedfar that's because of the

619
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 12: act that we passed and a lot of that we

620
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 12: are doing, including reviewing some of the programs that we

621
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 12: had in relation to ensuring that the programs or the

622
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 12: instruments that we provide to enterprise really talk to them.

623
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 12: Red tape that people are complaining about we had.

624
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 10: We needed to say.

625
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:18,479
Speaker 12: It starts with us, because when we looked other than

626
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 12: Businesses Act of nineteen ninety one, there was a lot

627
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 12: of a tape from our side as government, especially the

628
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 12: department that is administering Businesses Act. So we then said,

629
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 12: let's develop the business licensing them.

630
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 10: Which we're abused with.

631
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 12: I'm citing there's a steven because it is important that

632
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 12: every intervention is anchored into law. We do want to

633
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 12: come and do piecemeal interventions that can be overridden tomorrow.

634
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 12: So that's why I'm outlining all those and of course

635
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 12: the partnerships that we've had with the different say gods

636
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 12: that you are awaken with.

637
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 3: So your ministry has been around I think ten eleven

638
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 3: years now, you've only been responsible for it for four years.

639
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 3: So in the four years, do you think small businesses

640
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 3: have felt an impact. I mean, obviously it's long term

641
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,439
Speaker 3: work and more and more with feel an impact over time.

642
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 3: But do you believe that small businesses are benefiting from

643
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 3: the Ministry of Small Business Development.

644
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 12: I do believe they may not be immediate benefits in

645
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 12: all the interventions, as you know that the implementation of

646
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 12: the policy may take too longer, but I know that

647
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 12: there are instruments that have benefited most of them. If

648
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 12: I'm checking, for example, about the issue of the combatsman.

649
00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:35,879
Speaker 12: Although Pilamed, you're still dealing with the appointment, but we're

650
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 12: filled in some some staff that we are responsible for

651
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 12: the department and the BEGN to address some of the

652
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 12: con that the entrepreneurs are containing about. If you again

653
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 12: look at their funding policy for small businesses that we developed.

654
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 12: Entrepreneurs that will be asked for collateral when they went

655
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 12: to to to to ask for money from the financial

656
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 12: financial institutions, and we've managed to come up with that

657
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 12: policy and say relax certain things let's work on and

658
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 12: then move it to a collateral registry so that we're

659
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 12: able to include certain assets and we're finalizing that with

660
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 12: the Department of National Treasury. And again these are things

661
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 12: that now the private sector is able to listen to,

662
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,840
Speaker 12: including BASA, which is the Bank Association of South Africa,

663
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,839
Speaker 12: because we are working together to say we've got to

664
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 12: increase the pool for funding for small businesses if we

665
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 12: are to tend things around in South Africa. You've seen

666
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 12: managed Godnjuana. Now with the regulations on the public featurement,

667
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 12: we've made inputs to ensure that we do not only

668
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 12: allow small businesses to participate on tedy persons, but it

669
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,399
Speaker 12: has to be defined where do they participate. So all

670
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 12: those interventions are interventions that, as I said, they need

671
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 12: to be anchored into law so that they are sustainable.

672
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 3: So minnesot I mean there are many debates in our

673
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 3: society about small businesses, about the role for example of

674
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 3: informal businesses and formal businesses, about how to grow smaller businesses.

675
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 3: And forgive me, but I sometimes think the person in

676
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,479
Speaker 3: the position of Minister of Small Business Development maybe needs

677
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 3: to be heard a little more in these debates. I

678
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,880
Speaker 3: sometimes wonder if one of the political roles of the

679
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 3: person in the department. I mean, the legislation is very important,

680
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 3: all of that really mattered, but I wonder if from

681
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:18,719
Speaker 3: a political point of view, it might also be important

682
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:22,240
Speaker 3: for the person to play a sort of very public,

683
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 3: not cheerleading, but supportive role to say to small businesses,

684
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 3: I'm actually your champion in government. And I wonder sometimes

685
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 3: if maybe there's an opportunity there for that kind of thing,

686
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 3: because I think I think small businesses. When I speak

687
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:38,280
Speaker 3: to small business owners, and we speak to small business

688
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 3: owners probably two a week on this program, if I

689
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,319
Speaker 3: ask them how they feel about government, many will say

690
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:47,320
Speaker 3: government doesn't help me. We've heard that many informal businesses

691
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 3: won't get registered because they just see government as acting

692
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 3: against them. They would feel differently if you were in

693
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:53,720
Speaker 3: their corner.

694
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 12: Well, we do have the interests of the informal and

695
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 12: formal businesses. This is why we engage with all the

696
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:08,240
Speaker 12: business associations that respective municipalities deven because one thing about

697
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,359
Speaker 12: the coordination, as I mentioned, is that we must hear

698
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 12: from them. That's why we go to the local level

699
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 12: working with the LED offices. That means par level, the

700
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 12: business associations that are nationally We engage all of them,

701
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:25,760
Speaker 12: including the ones respons or the ones responsible for informal trading.

702
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 12: We even design specific interventions. Whilst I understand Stiven that

703
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 12: indeed there's a lot that needs to be done, but

704
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 12: the problem as things stand, as government, we have not

705
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 12: budgeted or not put more money into the work that

706
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 12: is being done by small businesses. That is why I said,

707
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 12: when we develop the funding policy, we then said what

708
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 12: are the other instruments that we must utilize liverating the

709
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 12: existing legislations, including amending others. If you listen to Minister

710
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 12: Parks who talks about the transformation files, it arises out

711
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 12: of the fund of funds Funds of funds proposal that

712
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 12: we made in our funding policy to say does a

713
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 12: need for us to close the funding gap. But it

714
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 12: doesn't end then as things then government spends one percent

715
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 12: on treasurement towards small businesses and those are engagements that

716
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 12: we're having with national treasure That's why elio I made

717
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:23,280
Speaker 12: refers to the public traasurement regulations that are the Minister

718
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 12: has gaeted to say, let's be specific to say we

719
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 12: want to create competitive entrepreneurs and this is where they

720
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 12: must participate from this value to this velu let that

721
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 12: results for small businesses, and we are hoping that everyone

722
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 12: will support that because for these interventions to yield the

723
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,759
Speaker 12: intended results, we need the entire ecosystem. If you're checking

724
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 12: about informal trader, it means that the by laws in

725
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 12: a particular municipality must be favorable to an informal trade

726
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,479
Speaker 12: as things than municipalities they develop are the guidelines based

727
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 12: on what they would want to do, and this is

728
00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:00,880
Speaker 12: where we've seen the prohibition of participating of participation by

729
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 12: informal traders. Hence I spoke about the business licensing build.

730
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 12: We are not waiting for the deal this week. The

731
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 12: coming week, I'll be engaging with SALGAT because we have

732
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,799
Speaker 12: said let's come together so that we can see it's

733
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 12: still in the competence of the municipality to say we

734
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 12: do see the need to deal with this because our

735
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 12: businesses are not growing or one two threde reasons that

736
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 12: they are fighting. That's why we say, why is to

737
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:27,720
Speaker 12: workingman policy. Let's make sure that we engage the ecosystem players.

738
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 12: Infrastructure has been cited of as one of the critical

739
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 12: gaps for informal treaders that must be able to trade

740
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,360
Speaker 12: in different spaces. And that's why it's the departments is

741
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 12: set aside funding for those to say, let's build proper

742
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:42,840
Speaker 12: infrastructure so that pe we can trade in a free environment,

743
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,719
Speaker 12: but in a safer environment. And we do that, it's

744
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 12: trust that their resources are minimal. I emphasize this, which

745
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:51,440
Speaker 12: is why you see us partnering with the likes of

746
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,719
Speaker 12: Safe and still calling for other partners to come and

747
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 12: join us in the work that we do.

748
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 3: I mean the event tonight, Hopefully we'll encourage I mean

749
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 3: as the JAS, I mean it's a massive player in

750
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 3: our economy. You would expect that it'll encourage other people

751
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 3: to do what you're doing tonight, which is helping small

752
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:09,240
Speaker 3: business through all of these projects.

753
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 12: Definitely, we are doing that. It's just there as I'm saying,

754
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 12: this is the sad year, we're finalizing that the first

755
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 12: lack of our partnership. We are having engagements with the

756
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:23,279
Speaker 12: PIC with thebasa to say, how do we resource the

757
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 12: township economy infrastructure? So we need all the players and

758
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 12: trust me, by the time we go to the patter vote,

759
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 12: we'll be announcing solid partnerships that I am certain that

760
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 12: will yield positive with us. You listen to the President

761
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:40,080
Speaker 12: today when they launch their affects and partnership that we

762
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 12: have again, out of the eight billion brands that is

763
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:46,800
Speaker 12: injected to our country for for for for investment, some

764
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,280
Speaker 12: of that money will be going to small businesses.

765
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 3: Minister, thank you very much. Indeed really good to hear

766
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:53,719
Speaker 3: your voice on The Money Show. I really appreciate the

767
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 3: time I know you in the middle of an event

768
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 3: in the Benie Abrahams is a Minister of Small Business Development.

769
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:00,120
Speaker 3: It's a minute after seve and.

770
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 1: And now The Money Show with Stephen credits on seven

771
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:07,760
Speaker 1: oh two. Let's walk little.

772
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 3: The Money Show with Stephen Crotis has brought to you

773
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,479
Speaker 3: by ABS, a corporate and investment banking balancing economic growth

774
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:17,839
Speaker 3: with ecosystems. That's how they're invested in your story. Good evening,

775
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 3: eight minutes now after seven the time business unusual in

776
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 3: a moment. I've often wondered a little bit about this,

777
00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:27,320
Speaker 3: and actually let me put this question to you. Do

778
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,719
Speaker 3: you think that the way in which a manager can

779
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,799
Speaker 3: be effective has changed in the last just ten years?

780
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 3: I would say probably in my head. I would go

781
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 3: back to around twenty ten, but since then we had

782
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 3: m I get into trouble for putting it like this.

783
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:47,759
Speaker 3: But what people often describe and I've seen described as

784
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:51,399
Speaker 3: the sort of a peak period of wokeness which kind

785
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,400
Speaker 3: of came to an end in around twenty eighteen twenty nineteen,

786
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:57,759
Speaker 3: I think the pandemic had a role in that. Of course,

787
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 3: the issues, the social issues that led that, are still around,

788
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,839
Speaker 3: but political power has changed. Need a point two. What's

789
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:06,879
Speaker 3: happening in the White House at the moment. What I'm

790
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:09,400
Speaker 3: trying to get to though, with everything that's happening so

791
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 3: working from home, hybrid working, the fact that more and

792
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 3: more people are personal brands and the media wherever and

793
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:20,640
Speaker 3: not so much representative of the brands of their businesses.

794
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:23,800
Speaker 3: How do you manage people in that context? And what

795
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 3: for you has been the most effective way to do it?

796
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 3: Oh seven two seven oh two one seven oh two.

797
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 3: I don't know. I hope you've done this. Warren Ingram

798
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:34,919
Speaker 3: will tell you to do it if you haven't since

799
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 3: the start of the year. Just taken a month, taken

800
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 3: an hour and gone through everything you've paid for and

801
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 3: all your accounts, credit cards, banks, the hobbits, and to

802
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 3: see how much money you've spent on what we're looking

803
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 3: for things that you don't actually use anymore. Wendy Nola

804
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 3: has a story for you, she tells me in the

805
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 3: next little while, looking forward to that and then really

806
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 3: looking forward to your shape shift tonight. Adrian Maizie, the

807
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,800
Speaker 3: founder and CEO ran a Capital collection. What they do

808
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,960
Speaker 3: now is that he owns the license for Starbucks in

809
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,080
Speaker 3: South Africa. So if you're a coffee ficionado, did I

810
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 3: get that right? You want to hear from him. But

811
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:14,680
Speaker 3: also the business of running a coffee store, coffee chain,

812
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,360
Speaker 3: how complicated? That is good to hear from you on

813
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 3: double one double A three oh seven two two one

814
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 3: four four six o five six seven and of course

815
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:25,839
Speaker 3: seven two seven oh two one seven o two seven two.

816
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 2: Stephen is gone x at at Stephen.

817
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 3: Well, as was widely expected. Today the leader of the

818
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 3: DA John Cienhayesen saying that he is not available for

819
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 3: a third term as leader. There's lots of speculation as

820
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 3: to why this isn't my own personal view, and feel

821
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 3: free to disagree with me. Six months ago he seemed

822
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 3: to be very much in charge. I think most people

823
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:51,480
Speaker 3: would have put money on him going for another term.

824
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:54,440
Speaker 3: They didn't seem to be any natural contender, barring the

825
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 3: obvious one who said he wouldn't run against him. And

826
00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 3: then it seemed everything changed. And to me it did

827
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 3: seem that the revelations about his personal finances, the way

828
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 3: in which he managed the Dion George situation must have

829
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 3: played a role. I can't see what else it was.

830
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 3: I realized people talk about the foot and mouth outbreak.

831
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 3: But if foot and mouth was the reason and his

832
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 3: handling of it was the reason, then why is he

833
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 3: staying as minister? So you know, anyway, That's just the

834
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:22,560
Speaker 3: way I see it at the moment. I just want

835
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 3: to reiterate this point because I think it's important. The

836
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 3: Democratic Alliances is the second biggest party in our country.

837
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:33,319
Speaker 3: It's not the opposition party anymore, of course, because it's

838
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 3: in the national coalition, and that means that its voice

839
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 3: on economic issues should matter. And I'm hoping that someone

840
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 3: somewhere during whichever leadership contest comes or however things pan out,

841
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:51,280
Speaker 3: sparks a big debate around economic policy. Debates about economic

842
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 3: policy and the ANC have to my mind, become quite muted.

843
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:58,720
Speaker 3: I was utterly amazed that there was virtually no reaction

844
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 3: to the decision to low the inflation target last year.

845
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:03,879
Speaker 3: In the past, in the A and C that would

846
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 3: have led to a huge discussion, not so much that

847
00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:09,439
Speaker 3: I could see this time publicly anyway. So I'm hoping

848
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 3: someone in the DA season opportunity to have a really

849
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 3: big proper conversation around economic policy and see where we

850
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 3: go from there. I mean, the whole point of going

851
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 3: into politics should be about how to grow the economy.

852
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 3: I mean that should be the whole point, to put

853
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 3: it another way, how to make people richer and everybody,

854
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 3: how to do those quite complicated technical things. The science

855
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 3: of development has been well studied over the years. So

856
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:39,480
Speaker 3: I'm just hoping someone in the DA does that and

857
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 3: makes it maybe a sort of festival of economic ideas.

858
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 3: I'm afraid to say, I'm not that optimistic. Twelve after seven.

859
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 2: Money show business unusual.

860
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 3: Lots of sort of complaints at the moment, kind of

861
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 3: in the ether, if you like or on LinkedIn in

862
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 3: different ways, if anything on LinkedIn is still written by

863
00:45:56,200 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 3: a human anymore, about the quality of leadership, about sort

864
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 3: of weak management, poor decision making, or no decision making,

865
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 3: a dithering, a sort of breakdown of cultures. Is is

866
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 3: something happening that maybe is changing, Avida and I do

867
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 3: is the Africa managing director at jack Hammer Global, Avita,

868
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 3: Great to talk to you again. How is it? I mean,

869
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:22,880
Speaker 3: is something shifting that's making management harder? And I think

870
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:25,799
Speaker 3: management's been getting harder for quite some time, but now

871
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:28,840
Speaker 3: you've got lots of other factors, including AI, which I

872
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,359
Speaker 3: think scares everybody. Is that having an impact? Maybe?

873
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:35,520
Speaker 13: I think there are one hundred things having an impact,

874
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 13: But I don't know. If you know this Gallop research,

875
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:41,520
Speaker 13: it says it's usually simplified to people don't leave companies,

876
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 13: they leave managers. And I think that shows that the

877
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 13: manager is the strongest determinant of whether people are going

878
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 13: to stay engaged or not. And it's something we see

879
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:51,840
Speaker 13: daily at jack Hammer. So personally, I think two of

880
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 13: the biggest things that leads to management degradation actually indicate

881
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 13: that it's a structural problem, it's not an individual personal one.

882
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,520
Speaker 13: And the first is that traditionally management was learned through

883
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 13: kind of like an informal apprenticeship, like you observe a

884
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 13: senior leader how they made decisions, how they exercised influence,

885
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:11,439
Speaker 13: how they manage conflict, and the trade offs that they made.

886
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 13: And now when people step into management roles without having

887
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 13: had that exposure, they start relying on policies, they become

888
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:21,359
Speaker 13: a little bit efficient, they escalate issues more, and that's

889
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:24,359
Speaker 13: because they don't trust their own discretion yet. So it's

890
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 13: not really weak leadership, it's just underdeveloped judgments. And then

891
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 13: the second thing is, you know what's disappearing in this

892
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 13: this corporate quest for efficiency and rationalization is the layers

893
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:40,720
Speaker 13: organizations are just flatter, So promotions are happening faster, layers

894
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:43,280
Speaker 13: are being removed because we're trying to retain high performers

895
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 13: or there's a technical or operational competence that must be rewarded.

896
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:50,279
Speaker 13: And so you know, the lack of the leadership apprentice

897
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:55,320
Speaker 13: and the greater hierarchy, or rather the leadership apprenticeship and

898
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 13: the greater hierarchyment that junior managers used to strengthen a

899
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:02,920
Speaker 13: muscle by having graduated responsibility and the structure was the

900
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:05,359
Speaker 13: scaffolding for them to learn management in a safe way,

901
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:07,279
Speaker 13: rather than what we have now is kind of like

902
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:09,440
Speaker 13: a ballderplane while flying it with I.

903
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 3: Mean we see our managers less and less, even if

904
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:16,360
Speaker 3: we're working in an office, you know, so much happens

905
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:20,080
Speaker 3: on WhatsApp rather than in a phone conversation. I love

906
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 3: a phone conversation, mate, All of those things, and I

907
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 3: mean the lessons, the ability to see how to deal

908
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:30,280
Speaker 3: with something. I just think that we've lost something about

909
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:33,400
Speaker 3: being human and that's one of the consequences of everything

910
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 3: that's changed, and that means worse management, absolutely, And.

911
00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 13: It works two ways, right, So, once being able to

912
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:42,879
Speaker 13: observe your manager making those decisions and grapple with those

913
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:45,919
Speaker 13: things and understand the thinking behind it helps you learn.

914
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:49,000
Speaker 13: But also from a managerial point of view, the remote

915
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 13: work or the hybrid work has shifted management itself away

916
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 13: from observation to you know, kind of like assumption and

917
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 13: inference about what people are doing and managers the output,

918
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 13: but less of the process that produces them. And sometimes

919
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:04,880
Speaker 13: that means managers disengage and they just trust that whoever

920
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:06,800
Speaker 13: is doing what they're doing is getting on with it,

921
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 13: which is fine. But then there are others who compensate

922
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 13: by overmeasuring or overcontrolling, and you know, neither of those

923
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:16,800
Speaker 13: are particularly effective, and what they're missing is that judgment,

924
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:19,720
Speaker 13: the context and the trust, which are really hard to develop.

925
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:22,719
Speaker 13: When you don't see the process unfolding, you don't see

926
00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 13: how people respond under pressure. You can't give real time

927
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:28,240
Speaker 13: feedback on what they're doing and how they could improve.

928
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:31,400
Speaker 3: It's also managers not having enough time with other managers.

929
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:33,960
Speaker 3: I mean, they also don't see their managers if you

930
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:36,279
Speaker 3: see what I mean, so you know, I will see

931
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 3: a manager and think they're not doing this properly. Wasn't

932
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 3: like that in my day. But actually that manages battling

933
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 3: too because they're not being managed effectively either.

934
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 14: That's exactly right.

935
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:50,040
Speaker 13: And again it comes to the lack of exposure and

936
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:53,399
Speaker 13: the flattening of the structures because you know, as much

937
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 13: as we want to call kind of like the old

938
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 13: school way of doing things bureaucratic or you know, there

939
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,400
Speaker 13: were too many barriers to entry or people used to about, oh,

940
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 13: well this is the way we do things around here,

941
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 13: and this is the way it's always been done. There

942
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:06,800
Speaker 13: was a certain learning capability that was built into that structure,

943
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 13: and new structures haven't accommodated or compensated for what is

944
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:11,319
Speaker 13: missing there.

945
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:11,680
Speaker 14: Yet.

946
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:15,839
Speaker 3: I wonder if this is just how things are going

947
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:18,239
Speaker 3: to be and it's not going to change because the

948
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 3: push for efficiencies is relentless. I wonder also that even

949
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:28,799
Speaker 3: though Joebergs traffic will tell you that more and more

950
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 3: people are spending more and more time in the office,

951
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:33,520
Speaker 3: in the end, it's just not going to be like that,

952
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 3: and so management isn't going to really get better.

953
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 13: I mean, I think they're probably ways that they could.

954
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 13: And just you know, to pick up on your point

955
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 13: about efficiencies, and you know you mentioned AI and automation earlier,

956
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 13: I think you know the risk there is that AI

957
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:53,040
Speaker 13: and automation take over the coordination part of work, and

958
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 13: this drive or efficiency is really unintentionally stripping out some

959
00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:58,960
Speaker 13: of the work which managers used to learn about how

960
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 13: organizations together, how they function, and how to get the

961
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 13: best out of their team. And you know that coordination

962
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 13: work for scheduling, the checking, the routing of information. We

963
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:09,799
Speaker 13: dismiss it as low value, but it's there where people

964
00:51:09,920 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 13: learn prioritizations. I think in order to make the new

965
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:16,800
Speaker 13: system work, we need to find ways that build that

966
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:20,800
Speaker 13: decision making back in without sacrificing on the efficiency and

967
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 13: also appreciate that automation compresses time yes, we want decisions

968
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 13: to happen faster, but we also need to appreciate that

969
00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:30,200
Speaker 13: it also means that tolerance and room for error decreases,

970
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:34,320
Speaker 13: which is wonderful for execution, but future leaders, they're not

971
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:37,279
Speaker 13: getting the chance to make mistakes, to make mistakes, learn

972
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 13: from them, and then correct them.

973
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:41,680
Speaker 3: People will talk about, oh, well, we could change the

974
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 3: culture of this organization, we can change the organizational values.

975
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 3: None of them are talking about let's spend more money

976
00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 3: on more managers spending more time with their workers and

977
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:52,359
Speaker 3: watching each other.

978
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 8: Yeah.

979
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 14: Absolutely.

980
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 13: I think when companies think about cultural interventions they think

981
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 13: about the symbolic workshops and the pretty websites. But that's

982
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 13: not how you sustain good culture, Like you say, it's

983
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:06,600
Speaker 13: building in more managerial capability, and it's sustained by those

984
00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:10,319
Speaker 13: everyday managerial decisions like how the feedback is given, how

985
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 13: the conflict is handled, and that consistency over time, so

986
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:17,799
Speaker 13: that the decisions were consistent And rather than letting people

987
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 13: become avoidant or overly procedural and policy driven, do you

988
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:25,719
Speaker 13: have you start to build faith and strong culture in

989
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 13: the way your possesses run.

990
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 3: Avitha, thanks very much, indeed, at than I do is

991
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 3: the managing director for Africa at jack Hammer Global. Your

992
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:37,399
Speaker 3: experience of being managed at the moment oh seven two

993
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:40,040
Speaker 3: seven two one seven o two is something changed nineteen

994
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 3: minutes after seven.

995
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:43,920
Speaker 2: The money show consumer Naga.

996
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:48,319
Speaker 3: Well, as you know our consumer ninja, your consumer ninja,

997
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:51,759
Speaker 3: excuse me is Wendy Nola. And one of the things

998
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 3: that you've got to do so often, and there's actually

999
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:56,759
Speaker 3: quite difficult to fix, is when you find you've been

1000
00:52:56,840 --> 00:52:59,840
Speaker 3: paying for premiums or subscriptions or a fee for some

1001
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:03,360
Speaker 3: thing that not only do you not use, you don't remember,

1002
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:06,719
Speaker 3: or the phone that was ensured as no more or

1003
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 3: whatever it is. This seems to happen all the time, Wen,

1004
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:13,160
Speaker 3: do you know THEO good evening. I mean, so many

1005
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 3: people come to me with stories about this. I can't imagine.

1006
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:17,840
Speaker 3: Your inbox must be full of it. You've got a

1007
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:20,480
Speaker 3: particular story to highlight something particular happened.

1008
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:24,280
Speaker 14: Here, Yes, Hi, Stephen. Indeed, this is a regular feature

1009
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:27,239
Speaker 14: in my inbox and it speaks to in the main

1010
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:31,759
Speaker 14: people not reading their bank stapers carefully. So Sharen wrote

1011
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:33,759
Speaker 14: to me a couple of weeks ago about her experience

1012
00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:36,600
Speaker 14: with short term insurance company First for Women, which was

1013
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 14: part of the Telly Show group. She took out a

1014
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:41,279
Speaker 14: policy on her car in May twenty twen sore we

1015
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:44,600
Speaker 14: going back fifteen years or worst than or sixteen years.

1016
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:47,320
Speaker 14: Two years later, she called First for a Woman and

1017
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:50,480
Speaker 14: notified them that she wished to cancel her policy. She

1018
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:53,239
Speaker 14: said in that call, I gave my addie number to

1019
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:55,879
Speaker 14: the consultant, and I assume that all the products under

1020
00:53:55,920 --> 00:54:00,759
Speaker 14: the policy number would be canceled because that all fell

1021
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:02,800
Speaker 14: under the same number. Right for her, it was a

1022
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:06,360
Speaker 14: packaged deal. But they canceled the main car policy but

1023
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:09,359
Speaker 14: not the others which fell under the same policy number.

1024
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:12,080
Speaker 3: So they didn't do what they were supposed to do.

1025
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:14,920
Speaker 3: What were the others? I mean, clearly they came to

1026
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:15,439
Speaker 3: some money.

1027
00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:20,399
Speaker 14: Yeah, so yes, the thing. Two months after she took

1028
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:23,160
Speaker 14: out that initial insurance policy for her car, she got

1029
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 14: an upsell call and other than an agent called her

1030
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:30,319
Speaker 14: an existing customer and sold her add ons, which were

1031
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 14: three Acid Pole Protection plan, which is funeral cover. Everybody

1032
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:37,439
Speaker 14: and their dog are selling funial cover, personal accident cover,

1033
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,879
Speaker 14: and scratch in tent cover. Industry refers to them as

1034
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:43,680
Speaker 14: that's value added products to my mo and its value,

1035
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:46,920
Speaker 14: mostly for the company. But never mind, that's another story.

1036
00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 14: So when she made that call in twenty twelve, she

1037
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:56,200
Speaker 14: said she wanted to cancel the policy, and she thought, well,

1038
00:54:56,360 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 14: that that's everything's canceled. But you can guess for now

1039
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:05,560
Speaker 14: the others were not canceled because she didn't specifically mention

1040
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:09,319
Speaker 14: wanting to cancel them, and important to head in Jamahmad,

1041
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:13,319
Speaker 14: the agent didn't specifically ask her about them. We just said, right,

1042
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:15,040
Speaker 14: I'm canceling your policy. End off.

1043
00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:17,320
Speaker 3: So how long did all of this go on for?

1044
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:18,920
Speaker 3: I mean, how long was she paying money out?

1045
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:24,839
Speaker 14: Thirteen years? Noah, Yeah, she paid more than sixty two

1046
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:29,640
Speaker 14: thousand policies and of course because she didn't know about them,

1047
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:33,160
Speaker 14: she didn't make a single claim. So that was a

1048
00:55:33,239 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 14: nice clean sixty two thousand rand for the company.

1049
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:37,000
Speaker 2: Wow.

1050
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:39,640
Speaker 3: So now you knock on their door and you say mm,

1051
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:43,680
Speaker 3: sixty two thousand rand and I imagine they say no.

1052
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:49,560
Speaker 14: Well they didn't exrectly say a total no. They said yes, okay,

1053
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:55,680
Speaker 14: we will pay you some back, but only for three years.

1054
00:55:55,840 --> 00:56:00,600
Speaker 14: Premiums because of description right and companies to use that,

1055
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:03,160
Speaker 14: but because the premims had increased quite a lot over

1056
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:06,239
Speaker 14: those thirteen years. They paid her back for the last

1057
00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:09,480
Speaker 14: three years a little over twenty five thousand grand, which

1058
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 14: was about forty percent of the total that she'd paid

1059
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:16,600
Speaker 14: that sixty two K. Sure, So yeah, I took up

1060
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:19,640
Speaker 14: her case of First Woman because I took her point

1061
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:23,160
Speaker 14: that because the add ons fell under the same policy number,

1062
00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:25,480
Speaker 14: the whole lot should have been canceled. And there she

1063
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:29,640
Speaker 14: specifically said, listen, I'm only canceling the car one, please

1064
00:56:29,719 --> 00:56:32,200
Speaker 14: keep the others alive. There should have been some discussion

1065
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:33,680
Speaker 14: around that, to my.

1066
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:36,760
Speaker 3: Mind, But who remembers a conversation with a call agent

1067
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:39,880
Speaker 3: thirteen years ago. But the agent should have I mean

1068
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:42,760
Speaker 3: when she when she called to cancel, the agent clearly

1069
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:45,840
Speaker 3: didn't mention the I'm sure there's a way they trained

1070
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:48,120
Speaker 3: not to nudge, nudge, wink wink, you know, no one

1071
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:51,040
Speaker 3: say anything, but was basically didn't mention the others.

1072
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:53,880
Speaker 14: No, didn't mention the other So obviously there was the

1073
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 14: main thing that I brought up with First Woman and

1074
00:56:56,600 --> 00:57:00,840
Speaker 14: their head Schonevan Vainhurt said she began by saying they

1075
00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:03,520
Speaker 14: look they those other those add ons would stand alone.

1076
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:09,600
Speaker 14: They had separate contracts, separate teasegencies. She got sms's emails

1077
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:12,120
Speaker 14: rather sent to her about policy manuals every year, so

1078
00:57:12,239 --> 00:57:15,080
Speaker 14: she missed those. She missed the debit orders on her

1079
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:19,160
Speaker 14: bank account. But as for the lack of mentioning, she says,

1080
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:23,120
Speaker 14: due to system limitations at the time, our consultants handling

1081
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:26,640
Speaker 14: vehicle and home policies could not view and did not

1082
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:30,640
Speaker 14: have access to any map policies. They were administered by

1083
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 14: a separate part of our business. And yeah, and they're

1084
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:37,280
Speaker 14: saying she didn't mention them, so whatever, whatever. We've now

1085
00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:40,920
Speaker 14: moved to a central platform, says First Woman, and the

1086
00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:45,240
Speaker 14: agents can now have alistic view of our and we'll we'll.

1087
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:46,880
Speaker 3: Just take the money as the consequence.

1088
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:49,560
Speaker 14: Yeah, and we'll give you back three years if you know,

1089
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:54,520
Speaker 14: just down the line. So so yeah, she finally did

1090
00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:57,880
Speaker 14: Sarine realize when she saw one of those emails sent

1091
00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:00,560
Speaker 14: by First Woman, which was in September last Yeah, and

1092
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:04,000
Speaker 14: then this discussion about pay me to show me the

1093
00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:04,840
Speaker 14: money began.

1094
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:10,120
Speaker 3: So she wasn't asked about the add on policies when

1095
00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:13,280
Speaker 3: she called I mean, and hard for her to prove,

1096
00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:16,200
Speaker 3: hard for them to prove that she didn't. I wouldn't

1097
00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:18,320
Speaker 3: be surprised. I would be surprised if she's the only

1098
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:19,400
Speaker 3: person in this position.

1099
00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:26,040
Speaker 14: Yes, absolutely, especially I mean, I'm unfortunate that most people

1100
00:58:26,120 --> 00:58:28,880
Speaker 14: don't go through their bank statements line by line every month.

1101
00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:31,320
Speaker 14: And this is a big takeout from this discussion, I

1102
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 14: like to think. But yes, I'm pretty sure that there

1103
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:38,200
Speaker 14: are others sitting with policies that don't know about could

1104
00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:41,000
Speaker 14: never claim. So that's it to have a quick look

1105
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:43,720
Speaker 14: at that. And for me, the other thing that that

1106
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:47,480
Speaker 14: sort of got under my skin a bit was I said,

1107
00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:49,120
Speaker 14: how did she come to get these extras?

1108
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:49,360
Speaker 15: Oh?

1109
00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:52,520
Speaker 14: Yes, two months after she took the initial the main

1110
00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:55,600
Speaker 14: the car policy, she got a call, one of those

1111
00:58:55,680 --> 00:58:58,360
Speaker 14: upse calls. Yeah, and then they sold it to her,

1112
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:02,720
Speaker 14: you know, So it just I just yeah, it's was unfortunate,

1113
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:05,160
Speaker 14: but she got twenty five K back. And y'all just

1114
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:07,080
Speaker 14: go and have a look at your bank statements. You

1115
00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:08,919
Speaker 14: might have added on that you're playing for every month

1116
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:10,160
Speaker 14: and have no idea about it.

1117
00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:12,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean it's very difficult to get historic

1118
00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:14,600
Speaker 3: money back, but you really don't want to lose any

1119
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:16,240
Speaker 3: more money. I mean, that's one of the reasons you've

1120
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:18,080
Speaker 3: got to do it. And I can hear we're on

1121
00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:20,520
Speaker 3: Ingram in my brain as I say this that you've

1122
00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:23,800
Speaker 3: got to play such close attention to your own personal

1123
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:25,520
Speaker 3: bank account and where the money is actually going.

1124
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:27,800
Speaker 14: Yeah, because no one else is going to.

1125
00:59:29,320 --> 00:59:33,320
Speaker 3: Indeed, Wendy Nola, thank you very much. Indeed you'll consumer

1126
00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:35,520
Speaker 3: Ninja on the Money Show. Just go and have a

1127
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:37,480
Speaker 3: look at the beginning of each month, you know, just

1128
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:39,560
Speaker 3: sit down, spend an hour. It's a pain in the neck,

1129
00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:41,520
Speaker 3: but go and do the homework. You'll be amazed at

1130
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:43,160
Speaker 3: what you find. Wendy, thank you very much.

1131
00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:46,320
Speaker 2: Indeed, The Money Show Shape Shift is.

1132
00:59:46,520 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 3: Twenty two minutes to eight now the time. Well, I'm

1133
00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:52,520
Speaker 3: sure you know how competitive the local coffee market has become.

1134
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:55,760
Speaker 3: You can get coffee from so many places. But one

1135
00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:59,520
Speaker 3: of the biggest names in global coffee and in coffee

1136
00:59:59,560 --> 01:00:02,800
Speaker 3: now inside Africa is Starbucks. It's a brand with a

1137
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:06,200
Speaker 3: huge reach, serves thousands of people in South Africa every day.

1138
01:00:06,440 --> 01:00:10,040
Speaker 3: And Starbucks South Africa is in fact owned by the

1139
01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:13,760
Speaker 3: Rant Capital Collection. Their CEO is your shape Shifter. Tonight

1140
01:00:14,040 --> 01:00:15,520
Speaker 3: spends a lot of time in the States, but he

1141
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:18,280
Speaker 3: is originally South African. I'm hoping he still calls themselves

1142
01:00:18,320 --> 01:00:21,720
Speaker 3: South African Adrian Mazie. Adrian, good evening to you and

1143
01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:23,880
Speaker 3: thanks so much for taking the time to speak to

1144
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:26,040
Speaker 3: us tonight. I know you've got a lot on your plate,

1145
01:00:26,120 --> 01:00:26,600
Speaker 3: so thank you.

1146
01:00:28,080 --> 01:00:28,520
Speaker 9: A pleasure.

1147
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:30,920
Speaker 15: Good evening, Stephen. Of course some boys will be South Africa.

1148
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:31,800
Speaker 15: There's no one doing that.

1149
01:00:33,120 --> 01:00:34,720
Speaker 3: Do you know what a Springbok jersey is? And how

1150
01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:37,040
Speaker 3: often do you wear it? That's all we need to know,

1151
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:42,000
Speaker 3: you'd every time we play excellent. You took over the

1152
01:00:42,720 --> 01:00:45,960
Speaker 3: license for Starbucks here. It was twenty nineteen. I mean

1153
01:00:46,160 --> 01:00:48,439
Speaker 3: things were a little different back then. It wasn't doing

1154
01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:51,560
Speaker 3: quite so well. Why were you so keen? I mean,

1155
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:54,400
Speaker 3: did you spot an opportunity? Did you think, actually there's

1156
01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:55,560
Speaker 3: a way to make money out of us?

1157
01:00:57,440 --> 01:00:59,840
Speaker 15: Yeah, you know, that's actually I like to inverte that question.

1158
01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:02,520
Speaker 15: The brand was doing very well back then. The brand

1159
01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:05,920
Speaker 15: that was associated with the prior owner that company got

1160
01:01:05,960 --> 01:01:08,000
Speaker 15: itself into trouble, and that was Taste Holdings, but the

1161
01:01:08,080 --> 01:01:11,320
Speaker 15: brand itself. The thirteen stores we bought in twenty nineteen

1162
01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:14,240
Speaker 15: were flagship, beautiful stores, some of the most beautiful in

1163
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:17,160
Speaker 15: the world, and they had great sales. What I saw

1164
01:01:17,240 --> 01:01:20,080
Speaker 15: in it was potential and an opportunity to get something

1165
01:01:20,160 --> 01:01:22,680
Speaker 15: that we could grow and build a dream around for

1166
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:25,480
Speaker 15: South Africa and in South Africa, and that's when we

1167
01:01:25,520 --> 01:01:25,920
Speaker 15: stepped in.

1168
01:01:26,640 --> 01:01:29,120
Speaker 3: At the time, obviously with Taste, there was a lot

1169
01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:31,240
Speaker 3: of things you had to sort out and you did

1170
01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:34,160
Speaker 3: all of that. Did you feel that there were many

1171
01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:36,960
Speaker 3: changes you need to make to the Starbucks brand there?

1172
01:01:37,920 --> 01:01:42,360
Speaker 3: Look the feel of going into a Starbucks in South Africa,

1173
01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:44,360
Speaker 3: I mean in South Africa, as you know, we like

1174
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:46,320
Speaker 3: to think we're very different to everyone else, and we

1175
01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:49,080
Speaker 3: aren't always, But were there things you felt you needed

1176
01:01:49,160 --> 01:01:51,520
Speaker 3: to change about the feeling of walking into one?

1177
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:55,960
Speaker 15: You know, they did a great job Tase Holdings to

1178
01:01:56,240 --> 01:01:59,240
Speaker 15: building these beautiful flagship stores that set the brand up

1179
01:01:59,280 --> 01:02:01,600
Speaker 15: for success, and they what they didn't have and what

1180
01:02:01,680 --> 01:02:04,640
Speaker 15: they needed was time to build a diversityfied portfolio that

1181
01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:07,880
Speaker 15: could sustain whatever variable came over time. And we got

1182
01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:10,480
Speaker 15: hit right within two months of earning the business with Covid,

1183
01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:14,800
Speaker 15: and that dramatically increased any need to diversify and the

1184
01:02:14,920 --> 01:02:18,960
Speaker 15: learning lesson there was we needed smaller stores in locations

1185
01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:22,360
Speaker 15: outside of malls, inside of grocery stores, etc. And that's

1186
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:25,480
Speaker 15: what they needed and it required a longer view or

1187
01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:28,000
Speaker 15: longer a larger balance sheet for them to get there.

1188
01:02:28,320 --> 01:02:30,160
Speaker 15: So they set up nicely pus success and we picked

1189
01:02:30,160 --> 01:02:32,200
Speaker 15: it up from there. And then we expanded. And that

1190
01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:35,400
Speaker 15: was the primary change we did, was getting, you know,

1191
01:02:35,520 --> 01:02:38,440
Speaker 15: getting outside of just simply being the primary malls, being

1192
01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:40,560
Speaker 15: more of an habitual brand than a destination.

1193
01:02:41,120 --> 01:02:42,840
Speaker 9: And we're sort of grown along the way doing that.

1194
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:46,680
Speaker 3: I mean, I've had to ask so many shape shifts

1195
01:02:46,720 --> 01:02:49,880
Speaker 3: what their COVID experience was like for a coffee shop

1196
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:52,000
Speaker 3: like yours. I mean, your first thought must have been

1197
01:02:52,040 --> 01:02:54,360
Speaker 3: this is going to be brutal, and yet you came

1198
01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:55,880
Speaker 3: out of it quite nicely. It seems.

1199
01:02:57,320 --> 01:03:01,320
Speaker 15: Yeah, we were lucky, we were capitalize the business, and

1200
01:03:01,440 --> 01:03:02,360
Speaker 15: so we leant forward.

1201
01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:04,440
Speaker 9: We had no choice. We were in and there was

1202
01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:05,440
Speaker 9: no chance to pull out.

1203
01:03:06,040 --> 01:03:08,760
Speaker 15: And I said, listen, let's see how let's grab land

1204
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:11,120
Speaker 15: while we can. So while the tide was out, we

1205
01:03:11,280 --> 01:03:14,520
Speaker 15: dove in. And when the first year, the first eighteen

1206
01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:17,360
Speaker 15: months when COVID started, we built thirty three stores from

1207
01:03:17,400 --> 01:03:19,720
Speaker 15: a base of thirteen that had been built over five years.

1208
01:03:19,760 --> 01:03:22,400
Speaker 15: It was quite a rapid expansion and that gave us

1209
01:03:22,440 --> 01:03:24,280
Speaker 15: a lot of market share gave us scale that we

1210
01:03:24,440 --> 01:03:26,560
Speaker 15: desperately needed for a brand of the size and for

1211
01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:29,840
Speaker 15: an international brand with the quality that is a Starbucks.

1212
01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:32,600
Speaker 15: You do require a significant amount of overhead, and that

1213
01:03:32,680 --> 01:03:34,400
Speaker 15: overhead has to get funded one way or the other.

1214
01:03:34,680 --> 01:03:36,560
Speaker 9: And if you aren't using somebody else's money, you need

1215
01:03:36,600 --> 01:03:36,720
Speaker 9: to be.

1216
01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:38,520
Speaker 15: You need a bunch of stores to generate the cash

1217
01:03:38,560 --> 01:03:41,760
Speaker 15: flow to do that, and the scale helped us not

1218
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:44,200
Speaker 15: only cover that overhead, but get a seat at the

1219
01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:47,920
Speaker 15: table with our suppliers and all stakeholders who involved in

1220
01:03:47,920 --> 01:03:48,280
Speaker 15: the business.

1221
01:03:48,320 --> 01:03:49,000
Speaker 9: So that was the key.

1222
01:03:50,040 --> 01:03:52,480
Speaker 3: I mean, coffee can sound simple, but I know it's not.

1223
01:03:52,680 --> 01:03:54,960
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm a relatively simple coffee drinker. I'll have

1224
01:03:55,000 --> 01:03:57,080
Speaker 3: an Americano with a touch of milk, please, And if

1225
01:03:57,080 --> 01:04:00,880
Speaker 3: you don't have the milk, that's fine. But some people,

1226
01:04:01,160 --> 01:04:03,919
Speaker 3: I mean, it can be incredibly complicated. And I read

1227
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:06,680
Speaker 3: I think there's something like eighty thousand combinations of drinks

1228
01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:09,160
Speaker 3: that you can get at the Starbucks in South Africa.

1229
01:04:09,240 --> 01:04:12,120
Speaker 3: I wasn't sure if i'd read that right. Frankly, does

1230
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:14,840
Speaker 3: that make it difficult to sort of manage? I mean,

1231
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:16,480
Speaker 3: you have to make sure you have everything you need

1232
01:04:16,560 --> 01:04:18,600
Speaker 3: at every branch and you don't want to have too

1233
01:04:18,680 --> 01:04:20,320
Speaker 3: much of it in any one place either.

1234
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:24,600
Speaker 15: Yeah, at Risk have been been called out on this.

1235
01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:26,440
Speaker 15: I think it's one of the most complex businesses to run.

1236
01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:30,480
Speaker 15: The number of line items we have to procure, most

1237
01:04:30,560 --> 01:04:34,200
Speaker 15: of them are imported, ensure the stock levels are correct, training, etc.

1238
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:35,360
Speaker 9: Is complex.

1239
01:04:35,440 --> 01:04:37,760
Speaker 15: Now you've got to also explain that to the customer

1240
01:04:37,840 --> 01:04:40,320
Speaker 15: on the other side, the combination does actually amount to

1241
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:44,040
Speaker 15: something like eighty thousand whatever a variation you have. And

1242
01:04:44,120 --> 01:04:46,120
Speaker 15: when I look at businesses other business today, this has

1243
01:04:46,120 --> 01:04:48,320
Speaker 15: been a great learning ground or for us to learn

1244
01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:50,640
Speaker 15: how to run a supply chain. We're primarily a limit

1245
01:04:50,760 --> 01:04:54,440
Speaker 15: logistics business and a front end hospitality business today. It

1246
01:04:54,640 --> 01:04:56,640
Speaker 15: is a lot that goes into it, and it's months

1247
01:04:56,680 --> 01:04:59,800
Speaker 15: and months of planning. My procurement team, O logistics team

1248
01:05:00,440 --> 01:05:04,280
Speaker 15: are outside of the front the frontline employees that are

1249
01:05:04,360 --> 01:05:07,400
Speaker 15: serving the customer the central part of our organization.

1250
01:05:09,240 --> 01:05:11,920
Speaker 3: It's so interesting. I mean, I sometimes wonder if if

1251
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:14,280
Speaker 3: a coffee chain might just make a lot more money

1252
01:05:14,760 --> 01:05:16,920
Speaker 3: by just being a bit simpler. Yes, you can have

1253
01:05:16,960 --> 01:05:20,440
Speaker 3: a cappuccino, but not a half whatever. And yes, I

1254
01:05:20,520 --> 01:05:23,240
Speaker 3: also know that over time, I mean coffee drinkers are

1255
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:25,320
Speaker 3: becoming like tea drinkers. They become quite finicky.

1256
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:31,320
Speaker 9: Yeah, you know, the core poor coffee offerings.

1257
01:05:32,080 --> 01:05:34,440
Speaker 15: You sort of can't differentiate yourself, and you do need

1258
01:05:35,640 --> 01:05:39,080
Speaker 15: labor's expensive, rents expensive, and yeah, you could simplify your business,

1259
01:05:39,120 --> 01:05:40,520
Speaker 15: but you're not going to have much in top line

1260
01:05:40,520 --> 01:05:42,520
Speaker 15: because only so many cofeees a person could drink per day.

1261
01:05:42,840 --> 01:05:45,120
Speaker 15: So how do you attract a broader, broader audience or

1262
01:05:45,120 --> 01:05:47,760
Speaker 15: customer base. And you need to grow and develop as

1263
01:05:48,160 --> 01:05:50,600
Speaker 15: your menu needs to change, as the market changes and

1264
01:05:50,640 --> 01:05:53,320
Speaker 15: the answers of the day certainly don't drink the coffee

1265
01:05:53,360 --> 01:05:56,000
Speaker 15: that you and I may be drinking, or it's cold

1266
01:05:56,280 --> 01:05:59,800
Speaker 15: called it's called brew and iced teas and every variation

1267
01:05:59,880 --> 01:06:03,560
Speaker 15: of preppaccino, and that keeps changing. And the innovation part

1268
01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:07,200
Speaker 15: that Starbucks are so good at is really differentiated for us.

1269
01:06:07,240 --> 01:06:09,880
Speaker 9: So our revenue is generally far higher than any of.

1270
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:12,360
Speaker 15: The coffee competitors that you may reference that they've been

1271
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:14,880
Speaker 15: brilliant at what they do, but we've got the cloud

1272
01:06:15,080 --> 01:06:17,800
Speaker 15: of a very very large machine behind us that can

1273
01:06:17,880 --> 01:06:19,800
Speaker 15: innovate and stay in touch with what's going on in

1274
01:06:19,840 --> 01:06:22,200
Speaker 15: the market at a lot larger scale and at a

1275
01:06:22,280 --> 01:06:24,640
Speaker 15: quality that's pretty hard for others to replicate, given the

1276
01:06:24,720 --> 01:06:27,400
Speaker 15: the justic function that's required to procure this and all

1277
01:06:27,440 --> 01:06:31,560
Speaker 15: these ingredients around the world, meeting global standards that are

1278
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:33,960
Speaker 15: on par with the Starbucks.

1279
01:06:35,160 --> 01:06:37,560
Speaker 3: It's been interesting. I mean, there's a big Routers report

1280
01:06:37,600 --> 01:06:39,400
Speaker 3: a couple of weeks ago about some of the major

1281
01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:42,360
Speaker 3: problems for Starbucks in the US with their supply chains.

1282
01:06:42,720 --> 01:06:45,120
Speaker 3: No milk at some stores, not enough food that others,

1283
01:06:45,240 --> 01:06:47,880
Speaker 3: too much food in some places. I mean, I know

1284
01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:50,760
Speaker 3: you won't necessarily want to comment on the parent company,

1285
01:06:50,880 --> 01:06:53,440
Speaker 3: but one of the things that I thought was interesting

1286
01:06:53,600 --> 01:06:55,160
Speaker 3: was it seemed in the US is a very different

1287
01:06:55,200 --> 01:06:59,280
Speaker 3: market to US, much much bigger that they basically had

1288
01:06:59,320 --> 01:07:01,800
Speaker 3: too many souliers and they should have had sort of

1289
01:07:01,880 --> 01:07:05,840
Speaker 3: a fewer bigger supplies. Are their lessens and what's happening

1290
01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:09,000
Speaker 3: there for here. I've never heard of a supply problem

1291
01:07:09,080 --> 01:07:11,120
Speaker 3: at Starbucks in South Africa, I have to say, so,

1292
01:07:11,640 --> 01:07:13,720
Speaker 3: I don't know if we're much easier or if you've

1293
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:15,320
Speaker 3: just kind of got it down pattern some way.

1294
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:19,320
Speaker 15: I'd love to say that would be true, but I

1295
01:07:19,400 --> 01:07:21,360
Speaker 15: tell you, Stephen, we spend night and day trying to

1296
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:23,320
Speaker 15: figure out how to get that product through the through

1297
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:25,920
Speaker 15: the ports in on time, making sure it doesn't expire.

1298
01:07:26,320 --> 01:07:28,919
Speaker 15: It's twelve weeks on the ocean. It's not an easy one,

1299
01:07:29,000 --> 01:07:31,640
Speaker 15: but it's fundamental to our business. A lot of capital's

1300
01:07:31,640 --> 01:07:33,200
Speaker 15: tied up in your supply chain. You've got to get

1301
01:07:33,240 --> 01:07:34,680
Speaker 15: it right. You've got to be consistent. And we've got

1302
01:07:34,720 --> 01:07:37,240
Speaker 15: a very very big country. The rest of the world

1303
01:07:37,280 --> 01:07:40,080
Speaker 15: and including the people we report into, don't realize how

1304
01:07:40,120 --> 01:07:42,440
Speaker 15: big South Africa is, and logistics between getting tough from

1305
01:07:42,760 --> 01:07:45,160
Speaker 15: Durban tol Tank, from kW teng down to Cape Town,

1306
01:07:46,240 --> 01:07:49,360
Speaker 15: it's a big effort. And yes, supplier supply relationships are

1307
01:07:49,440 --> 01:07:52,600
Speaker 15: key and over concentration into a single supply is very

1308
01:07:52,680 --> 01:07:53,680
Speaker 15: dangerous for your business.

1309
01:07:54,480 --> 01:07:57,960
Speaker 9: So you also have to think about diversitifying there and.

1310
01:07:58,120 --> 01:08:00,040
Speaker 15: Making sure you're not like I said, not making so

1311
01:08:00,160 --> 01:08:01,760
Speaker 15: you're not too small, because if you're too small and

1312
01:08:01,800 --> 01:08:03,720
Speaker 15: they decide to turn turn the key on you, you

1313
01:08:03,760 --> 01:08:06,160
Speaker 15: can really get yourself into trouble. Fortunately, most of our

1314
01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:10,000
Speaker 15: product comes comes from the parent company. That does mean

1315
01:08:10,040 --> 01:08:12,880
Speaker 15: we've got a lot of a lot of our capital

1316
01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:15,440
Speaker 15: sitting on the ocean, but dated the procurement and then

1317
01:08:15,480 --> 01:08:18,560
Speaker 15: we procure from them. We have demand planning side that

1318
01:08:18,640 --> 01:08:20,519
Speaker 15: we have to get right, and that's making sure in

1319
01:08:20,560 --> 01:08:24,120
Speaker 15: South Africa, given the variability in the various towns, that

1320
01:08:24,200 --> 01:08:26,320
Speaker 15: we've got the supply right because we're thinking six to

1321
01:08:26,400 --> 01:08:28,000
Speaker 15: nine months out every time we place an order.

1322
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:33,519
Speaker 3: So the business of running a coffee shop right star back.

1323
01:08:33,640 --> 01:08:36,479
Speaker 3: So I mean there's some people who I'm sure go

1324
01:08:36,680 --> 01:08:38,599
Speaker 3: to you once or twice a day and they will

1325
01:08:38,640 --> 01:08:41,200
Speaker 3: literally go. They'll have their branch, they will probably know

1326
01:08:41,400 --> 01:08:45,240
Speaker 3: I hope they'll know the barista. They will just want

1327
01:08:45,560 --> 01:08:47,720
Speaker 3: they order. They might want two or three for the

1328
01:08:47,760 --> 01:08:49,640
Speaker 3: rest of the office. And if they go. There are

1329
01:08:49,640 --> 01:08:51,559
Speaker 3: plenty of other people, and I'm guilty of this from

1330
01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:54,080
Speaker 3: time to time, who'll go into a coffee shop, have

1331
01:08:54,240 --> 01:08:57,559
Speaker 3: one drink that linger for hours, be meet. I mean,

1332
01:08:57,760 --> 01:08:59,400
Speaker 3: you know, sometimes you can go into a coffee shop

1333
01:08:59,439 --> 01:09:01,519
Speaker 3: and to this in, that person, in this person and

1334
01:09:01,640 --> 01:09:04,240
Speaker 3: that person and is great, but you're not making much

1335
01:09:04,320 --> 01:09:08,080
Speaker 3: money out of me. How do you sort of make

1336
01:09:08,240 --> 01:09:10,519
Speaker 3: money when people do linger and you want them to

1337
01:09:10,640 --> 01:09:13,280
Speaker 3: linger in a way, but you also don't want them to,

1338
01:09:13,680 --> 01:09:16,759
Speaker 3: you know, use all of your electricity charging their laptop.

1339
01:09:18,920 --> 01:09:21,519
Speaker 9: Yeah, look, I take a long view on that.

1340
01:09:21,680 --> 01:09:23,479
Speaker 15: I think the more time people can spend in US store,

1341
01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:26,160
Speaker 15: become familiar with it, love the brand, love the product.

1342
01:09:26,439 --> 01:09:28,160
Speaker 15: I think for the long term that boats very well

1343
01:09:28,200 --> 01:09:30,400
Speaker 15: with us. We're privately owned business. It's me and the

1344
01:09:30,439 --> 01:09:32,240
Speaker 15: fear of my friends that I've got to know me

1345
01:09:32,360 --> 01:09:35,040
Speaker 15: over time as either somebody who.

1346
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:36,800
Speaker 9: Cycled or worked and wherever I've been.

1347
01:09:37,479 --> 01:09:39,080
Speaker 15: We've got to make make this thing work, and I

1348
01:09:39,160 --> 01:09:41,600
Speaker 15: think building a report and connection with the customer is

1349
01:09:41,640 --> 01:09:44,080
Speaker 15: more important. I never like going into a restaurant and

1350
01:09:44,479 --> 01:09:46,120
Speaker 15: to feel rushed, and I know why they need this

1351
01:09:46,200 --> 01:09:48,559
Speaker 15: seat to turn over, but I don't think that builds

1352
01:09:48,600 --> 01:09:52,040
Speaker 15: longevity and loyalty with your customer. And so yes, I

1353
01:09:52,800 --> 01:09:55,280
Speaker 15: recognize any Stockbucks you go into, in particular the one

1354
01:09:55,320 --> 01:09:58,000
Speaker 15: in Rosebank or sitting in Cpoint here there's a playful

1355
01:09:58,000 --> 01:10:00,920
Speaker 15: a lot of people sitting using electricity and spending time there.

1356
01:10:01,360 --> 01:10:02,719
Speaker 9: But I actually don't mind.

1357
01:10:02,600 --> 01:10:04,000
Speaker 15: It at all because over the time of time they

1358
01:10:04,040 --> 01:10:06,960
Speaker 15: will become long term customers and that's the ultimate goal.

1359
01:10:07,920 --> 01:10:10,760
Speaker 3: Adrian Maizie is your shape shifter. This evening's with us

1360
01:10:10,880 --> 01:10:13,920
Speaker 3: until eight o' plenty more to comitt eleven minutes Nate.

1361
01:10:15,479 --> 01:10:18,040
Speaker 11: The Money Show Stephen Curtis is brought to you by

1362
01:10:18,160 --> 01:10:23,240
Speaker 11: Absolve Corporate and Investment Banking, balancing economic growth with ecosystems.

1363
01:10:23,560 --> 01:10:26,120
Speaker 11: That's how they've invested in your story.

1364
01:10:27,880 --> 01:10:28,679
Speaker 2: The Money Show.

1365
01:10:29,200 --> 01:10:33,479
Speaker 3: Shape Shifters the CEO of Rand Capital Coffee Adrian Maizie

1366
01:10:33,600 --> 01:10:36,560
Speaker 3: or Shape Shifter tonight. They hold the Starbucks license in

1367
01:10:36,640 --> 01:10:39,120
Speaker 3: South Africa, Adrian, who's spoken a lot about coffee, and

1368
01:10:39,120 --> 01:10:40,840
Speaker 3: I have many more questions. I do want to ask

1369
01:10:40,880 --> 01:10:42,759
Speaker 3: a question or two about you, if I may, Because

1370
01:10:43,360 --> 01:10:45,639
Speaker 3: you grew up in Pretoria. You went to the same

1371
01:10:45,720 --> 01:10:47,840
Speaker 3: school as what was that guy's name? I'm sure you

1372
01:10:47,960 --> 01:10:50,200
Speaker 3: get asked that all the time.

1373
01:10:51,000 --> 01:10:52,400
Speaker 9: Yeah, I heard he went to my school.

1374
01:10:53,040 --> 01:10:56,679
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, obviously my fault for noticing there, Elon Mask.

1375
01:10:57,080 --> 01:10:58,880
Speaker 3: Then you went to the US and you actually went

1376
01:10:59,040 --> 01:11:03,519
Speaker 3: there rate to play tennis? Was that a scholarship? I mean,

1377
01:11:04,080 --> 01:11:05,840
Speaker 3: I mean that must have been quite an experience. You

1378
01:11:05,840 --> 01:11:09,320
Speaker 3: would have gone on your own to play a particular sports,

1379
01:11:09,439 --> 01:11:10,680
Speaker 3: and you must have done very well at it.

1380
01:11:12,479 --> 01:11:15,360
Speaker 15: Yeah, I'm the nineteen ninety two Turkish tennis champion and

1381
01:11:15,760 --> 01:11:16,439
Speaker 15: from there I.

1382
01:11:18,560 --> 01:11:19,760
Speaker 9: That was my height of my career.

1383
01:11:19,800 --> 01:11:21,280
Speaker 15: And then I got a scholarship to go to the

1384
01:11:21,400 --> 01:11:24,519
Speaker 15: University of Nebraska, where I spent three years playing Division

1385
01:11:24,560 --> 01:11:24,960
Speaker 15: one tennis.

1386
01:11:25,040 --> 01:11:28,599
Speaker 9: We were the nineteen ninety six Division eight champions.

1387
01:11:28,640 --> 01:11:30,800
Speaker 15: I was in doubles at number one doubles, and then

1388
01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:32,839
Speaker 15: I quit and then I went to work for Cooper's

1389
01:11:32,920 --> 01:11:36,280
Speaker 15: librand de Lloyte Intuition private equity hedge fund, and that

1390
01:11:36,439 --> 01:11:37,639
Speaker 15: was the end of my tennis career.

1391
01:11:37,680 --> 01:11:41,920
Speaker 9: But it was it's to what I am to the

1392
01:11:42,000 --> 01:11:44,160
Speaker 9: court to this day. It's how I identify.

1393
01:11:45,320 --> 01:11:50,200
Speaker 3: I mean, the idea of going to another bigger country.

1394
01:11:50,880 --> 01:11:53,240
Speaker 3: It wasn't like now where you could WhatsApp your parents,

1395
01:11:53,280 --> 01:11:55,200
Speaker 3: you know, where you could you know, be on the

1396
01:11:55,280 --> 01:11:56,920
Speaker 3: phone to them every day. I mean, it was a

1397
01:11:57,000 --> 01:11:59,400
Speaker 3: very different time, the sort of early nineties. What was

1398
01:11:59,439 --> 01:12:02,479
Speaker 3: that experience. I mean, you must have learned a huge amount.

1399
01:12:02,520 --> 01:12:04,080
Speaker 3: You'd ever had no one else to rely on?

1400
01:12:05,680 --> 01:12:07,800
Speaker 15: Yeah, you know, And when I talked to my kids, it's,

1401
01:12:07,880 --> 01:12:10,360
Speaker 15: you know, the story about how hard we had it

1402
01:12:10,400 --> 01:12:12,680
Speaker 15: as children and compared to how they are today. But

1403
01:12:13,520 --> 01:12:15,800
Speaker 15: I left on the second of January ninete ninety three,

1404
01:12:16,439 --> 01:12:20,080
Speaker 15: went to what is twenty below zero. No connection with

1405
01:12:20,160 --> 01:12:23,280
Speaker 15: No Francis was pre apartheid, end of apartheid, right, So

1406
01:12:23,600 --> 01:12:26,160
Speaker 15: it wasn't exactly a large connection to United States. No Internet,

1407
01:12:26,280 --> 01:12:28,920
Speaker 15: no longer distance calling, no WhatsApp. I used to send

1408
01:12:29,040 --> 01:12:31,040
Speaker 15: videos to my mother on a VCR reporter that I

1409
01:12:31,320 --> 01:12:33,680
Speaker 15: at one point bought, and that came later years, but

1410
01:12:33,680 --> 01:12:35,960
Speaker 15: otherwise it was postcards. It was very difficult. That had

1411
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:38,040
Speaker 15: no network, and I think I went there with eight

1412
01:12:38,120 --> 01:12:41,840
Speaker 15: hundred rand and everything I earned today comes from that

1413
01:12:41,920 --> 01:12:43,840
Speaker 15: eight hundred rand, which by the way, I spent the

1414
01:12:43,880 --> 01:12:48,840
Speaker 15: first week I got there, but different conversation, but yeah,

1415
01:12:49,080 --> 01:12:52,840
Speaker 15: it I had to form relationships. I couldn't get a

1416
01:12:52,960 --> 01:12:55,599
Speaker 15: job like I could year or anywhere. Like I watched

1417
01:12:55,640 --> 01:12:57,639
Speaker 15: kids that they get jobs in America and their parents

1418
01:12:57,680 --> 01:12:59,400
Speaker 15: help them get jobs. I get people coming to me

1419
01:12:59,439 --> 01:13:02,080
Speaker 15: asking me to I'll place them. I don't know which

1420
01:13:02,160 --> 01:13:04,000
Speaker 15: university to go to. I got three offers to go

1421
01:13:04,040 --> 01:13:05,799
Speaker 15: to different schools. I had no idea what the difference

1422
01:13:05,840 --> 01:13:07,920
Speaker 15: is between one or the other. And it wasn't like

1423
01:13:08,000 --> 01:13:09,360
Speaker 15: I could just look it up on the inter let

1424
01:13:09,400 --> 01:13:13,080
Speaker 15: alone on CHEGBT. So it was me and my own

1425
01:13:13,560 --> 01:13:15,160
Speaker 15: but I figured it out and it probably made me

1426
01:13:15,240 --> 01:13:17,439
Speaker 15: what I am today. I was eighteen years old, and

1427
01:13:17,560 --> 01:13:19,160
Speaker 15: I had to make friends and figure out how to

1428
01:13:19,360 --> 01:13:21,479
Speaker 15: just get a driver's license, how to even figure out

1429
01:13:21,479 --> 01:13:24,360
Speaker 15: where classrooms were. So were all old enough to know

1430
01:13:24,400 --> 01:13:26,880
Speaker 15: what that was like. But it certainly made me grow

1431
01:13:26,960 --> 01:13:27,559
Speaker 15: up very quickly.

1432
01:13:29,160 --> 01:13:30,840
Speaker 3: Was there a drive that you had? I mean you

1433
01:13:31,040 --> 01:13:33,320
Speaker 3: went to Coopers in librnders you say, then you went

1434
01:13:33,520 --> 01:13:35,600
Speaker 3: from you know, from one business to another business, and

1435
01:13:35,680 --> 01:13:38,519
Speaker 3: you clearly learned a lot from some of the people

1436
01:13:38,600 --> 01:13:41,799
Speaker 3: you saw. But you clearly they saw something in you too. Obviously.

1437
01:13:43,720 --> 01:13:45,840
Speaker 15: Yeah, I don't know what they saw on me a

1438
01:13:45,880 --> 01:13:48,879
Speaker 15: different perspective, but I've always been highly ambitious, but ambitious

1439
01:13:48,880 --> 01:13:52,719
Speaker 15: from it in security perspective. I always have high desire

1440
01:13:52,800 --> 01:13:54,720
Speaker 15: to grow up and be something in somebody someday, and

1441
01:13:54,760 --> 01:13:56,519
Speaker 15: I'm still trying to do that. And I've always tried

1442
01:13:56,560 --> 01:13:58,479
Speaker 15: to excel at what I do. And I knew that

1443
01:13:58,680 --> 01:14:01,880
Speaker 15: by giving my best every day, I'd be better the

1444
01:14:01,960 --> 01:14:05,040
Speaker 15: next day, if that makes sense, and certainly putting my

1445
01:14:05,080 --> 01:14:07,680
Speaker 15: best foot forward, I would impress somebody along the way.

1446
01:14:07,680 --> 01:14:09,839
Speaker 15: And I'd always thought to be friends with older individuals

1447
01:14:09,880 --> 01:14:11,920
Speaker 15: who are more experienced, and I learned from them. And

1448
01:14:12,160 --> 01:14:14,200
Speaker 15: it probably was also because of one of the youngest.

1449
01:14:13,960 --> 01:14:14,479
Speaker 9: In my classes.

1450
01:14:14,520 --> 01:14:16,760
Speaker 15: Even at primary school, at spring Gold Primary or Boys,

1451
01:14:16,840 --> 01:14:18,880
Speaker 15: I was a year younger than most folks, and so

1452
01:14:19,280 --> 01:14:21,760
Speaker 15: I was surrounded by people with more experience and it

1453
01:14:21,880 --> 01:14:22,680
Speaker 15: sort of stuck with me.

1454
01:14:22,720 --> 01:14:23,200
Speaker 9: All my life.

1455
01:14:23,240 --> 01:14:24,760
Speaker 15: I'm now getting to a stage where I turned out

1456
01:14:24,800 --> 01:14:26,360
Speaker 15: to be the oldest in the crowd, which is quite weird.

1457
01:14:26,439 --> 01:14:29,040
Speaker 15: But I did that and I think that helped me

1458
01:14:29,120 --> 01:14:31,000
Speaker 15: and a lot of people open doors for me. It

1459
01:14:31,080 --> 01:14:33,760
Speaker 15: didn't come on my own. Maybe I earned it, but

1460
01:14:34,479 --> 01:14:35,639
Speaker 15: you couldn't get there on your own.

1461
01:14:35,960 --> 01:14:38,560
Speaker 3: H I mean, there's so much truth. Is there a

1462
01:14:38,840 --> 01:14:45,720
Speaker 3: particular philosophy or sort of writer that's maybe influenced you?

1463
01:14:46,360 --> 01:14:49,680
Speaker 3: Raad somewhere, Anne Ran perhaps, I mean she influences She's

1464
01:14:49,720 --> 01:14:52,000
Speaker 3: influenced quite a few generations of people. I mean, would

1465
01:14:52,040 --> 01:14:53,360
Speaker 3: she be one? Would they be others?

1466
01:14:55,000 --> 01:14:55,200
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1467
01:14:55,400 --> 01:14:57,599
Speaker 9: And Ran without a doubt. And Rand group is named

1468
01:14:57,640 --> 01:14:58,320
Speaker 9: after Oran.

1469
01:14:58,400 --> 01:15:03,160
Speaker 15: Capital is named after Random Atlas Shrugged fountain Head. But

1470
01:15:03,360 --> 01:15:06,479
Speaker 15: my former boss, Eddie Lampert is the one who sort

1471
01:15:06,520 --> 01:15:07,680
Speaker 15: of indoctrinated me into that.

1472
01:15:08,400 --> 01:15:08,599
Speaker 9: Yeah.

1473
01:15:10,040 --> 01:15:13,160
Speaker 15: Elan inspires the heck out of me, and I sit

1474
01:15:13,240 --> 01:15:15,679
Speaker 15: and watch his work ethic and his desire and drive,

1475
01:15:15,800 --> 01:15:17,240
Speaker 15: and that's somebody I'll look up to.

1476
01:15:17,360 --> 01:15:19,920
Speaker 9: Now that's not an author. Ban Anne Rand has been

1477
01:15:20,080 --> 01:15:20,439
Speaker 9: certainly the.

1478
01:15:20,400 --> 01:15:22,679
Speaker 15: Most influential in my life and elan at the moment

1479
01:15:22,720 --> 01:15:24,680
Speaker 15: that someone inspires me to be better and get up

1480
01:15:24,720 --> 01:15:28,720
Speaker 15: and do something, and it's sort of highlighting at this

1481
01:15:28,840 --> 01:15:32,720
Speaker 15: point I'm turning fifty two. Short is how much time

1482
01:15:32,760 --> 01:15:34,760
Speaker 15: we have left and how much time you have to

1483
01:15:34,840 --> 01:15:36,120
Speaker 15: be productive and get things done.

1484
01:15:36,240 --> 01:15:37,479
Speaker 9: So I'm trying to ramp.

1485
01:15:37,400 --> 01:15:40,080
Speaker 15: Up my work ethic and hopefully I'll get enough done

1486
01:15:40,120 --> 01:15:41,720
Speaker 15: in my lifespan that I can accomplish something.

1487
01:15:42,360 --> 01:15:44,640
Speaker 3: No, well, I think many people would have said you've

1488
01:15:44,680 --> 01:15:50,560
Speaker 3: done that. The coffee industry in the longer term, I

1489
01:15:50,640 --> 01:15:52,560
Speaker 3: mean twenty years time. Do you have any idea of

1490
01:15:52,640 --> 01:15:54,720
Speaker 3: what a coffee shop might be like? I mean, let

1491
01:15:54,760 --> 01:15:56,880
Speaker 3: me try stab at it first. I think certain things. Firstly,

1492
01:15:56,960 --> 01:15:59,080
Speaker 3: I think people will be there because they'll want to

1493
01:15:59,160 --> 01:16:01,760
Speaker 3: be there. They'll want to socialize. I don't think that

1494
01:16:01,880 --> 01:16:06,439
Speaker 3: goes away COVID whatever. I think that people will still

1495
01:16:06,600 --> 01:16:09,479
Speaker 3: also want a good product, so they'll want coffee or

1496
01:16:09,520 --> 01:16:11,720
Speaker 3: something like it. The cold of drinks you refer to

1497
01:16:12,120 --> 01:16:15,280
Speaker 3: the propertinas whatever they're called. Then would that be somewhere

1498
01:16:15,320 --> 01:16:15,800
Speaker 3: near the mark.

1499
01:16:17,840 --> 01:16:18,960
Speaker 9: Yeah, I think that's right. I think you have a

1500
01:16:19,040 --> 01:16:19,439
Speaker 9: mixed bag.

1501
01:16:19,520 --> 01:16:21,960
Speaker 15: So for myself, I'm an individual who wants the same

1502
01:16:22,000 --> 01:16:23,920
Speaker 15: thing every day, walk in, walk out. I don't really

1503
01:16:24,000 --> 01:16:26,080
Speaker 15: want to interact with anybody. So in the US, I'll

1504
01:16:26,160 --> 01:16:28,519
Speaker 15: use the mobile order and pay app, which I love.

1505
01:16:28,640 --> 01:16:31,000
Speaker 15: I go in, I order while I'm in the car,

1506
01:16:31,760 --> 01:16:33,960
Speaker 15: and which, by the way, my testa drives itself and

1507
01:16:34,400 --> 01:16:36,200
Speaker 15: it departs itself, and I walk in a walk out

1508
01:16:36,240 --> 01:16:39,360
Speaker 15: and goes and so that works well for me. For

1509
01:16:39,439 --> 01:16:41,519
Speaker 15: the everybody else who wants to socialize, who wants to

1510
01:16:41,600 --> 01:16:44,040
Speaker 15: interact with the barista, then there's going to be a

1511
01:16:44,080 --> 01:16:45,800
Speaker 15: place for that, and I don't think that's going to

1512
01:16:45,840 --> 01:16:46,200
Speaker 15: go away.

1513
01:16:46,400 --> 01:16:49,400
Speaker 9: But for a guy like myself, I'm not an explorer.

1514
01:16:50,880 --> 01:16:54,120
Speaker 15: I there's going to be human alays be behind the

1515
01:16:54,280 --> 01:16:56,519
Speaker 15: serving a coffee if anything, is just gonna be automatic

1516
01:16:56,560 --> 01:16:58,200
Speaker 15: and you take it. But I certainly don't want a

1517
01:16:58,320 --> 01:17:00,599
Speaker 15: ending machine. So that is a fundamentalerence. So we both

1518
01:17:00,640 --> 01:17:02,599
Speaker 15: can probably relate to that. So I think you'll see

1519
01:17:02,600 --> 01:17:05,040
Speaker 15: a big spad bag, and you do need place to

1520
01:17:05,200 --> 01:17:08,639
Speaker 15: sit and work and think through things. So the traditional

1521
01:17:08,680 --> 01:17:11,040
Speaker 15: coffee shop that third place will be there as will

1522
01:17:11,280 --> 01:17:14,680
Speaker 15: be a more efficient way of acquiring your coffee consistently,

1523
01:17:14,720 --> 01:17:16,840
Speaker 15: because that's also very key, right, It's very difficult to

1524
01:17:17,400 --> 01:17:22,200
Speaker 15: deliver consistent coffee at a national or international scale, and

1525
01:17:22,360 --> 01:17:23,800
Speaker 15: somebody's going to have to do that, and generally that's

1526
01:17:23,800 --> 01:17:24,280
Speaker 15: probably going to.

1527
01:17:24,240 --> 01:17:28,120
Speaker 3: Be a machine. Adrian. There's a running joke on the

1528
01:17:28,240 --> 01:17:30,000
Speaker 3: segment of the show every week, which is that I

1529
01:17:30,120 --> 01:17:32,679
Speaker 3: usually ask the people who the person who's the shape shift,

1530
01:17:32,760 --> 01:17:35,400
Speaker 3: what do they do for fun? And I usually say,

1531
01:17:35,880 --> 01:17:37,840
Speaker 3: you're not allowed to say jogging and spending time with

1532
01:17:37,920 --> 01:17:40,160
Speaker 3: your family, because so many people give me that answer.

1533
01:17:40,880 --> 01:17:42,920
Speaker 3: The problem is that in your case, you've done the

1534
01:17:42,960 --> 01:17:45,160
Speaker 3: Iron Man. What is it twenty times that I don't

1535
01:17:45,160 --> 01:17:46,920
Speaker 3: think I'm allowed to say you can't say jogging.

1536
01:17:48,760 --> 01:17:52,439
Speaker 15: Yeah, so twenty two Iron Men, three Comrades and one

1537
01:17:52,520 --> 01:17:55,839
Speaker 15: kpe Epic. But really, for fun for me is cycling

1538
01:17:56,520 --> 01:17:58,200
Speaker 15: that allows me to clear my mind and a lot

1539
01:17:58,240 --> 01:18:00,320
Speaker 15: of thinking. Listen to books on tapes or pot course,

1540
01:18:00,600 --> 01:18:03,200
Speaker 15: listen to CNBC, listen to your show, whatever it is

1541
01:18:03,680 --> 01:18:05,360
Speaker 15: that gets me going. But if I don't do that,

1542
01:18:05,439 --> 01:18:07,720
Speaker 15: I don't recharge. And I think anybody that knows me

1543
01:18:08,160 --> 01:18:11,519
Speaker 15: knows that my exercise routine is just sort of care

1544
01:18:11,560 --> 01:18:13,320
Speaker 15: to my being. And I started as a youngster in

1545
01:18:13,439 --> 01:18:16,439
Speaker 15: high school year Viretoria, whereas trying to be a better athlete,

1546
01:18:16,520 --> 01:18:19,160
Speaker 15: and it just became part of my everyday lifestyle and

1547
01:18:19,240 --> 01:18:20,920
Speaker 15: it is something I do every single day, whether I'm

1548
01:18:20,920 --> 01:18:22,600
Speaker 15: cycling or going to the gym. I was at the

1549
01:18:22,640 --> 01:18:24,880
Speaker 15: Virgin Actor this morning, at the Solid District, and I'll

1550
01:18:24,880 --> 01:18:27,479
Speaker 15: go there again tomorrow no matter how I'm feeling.

1551
01:18:28,640 --> 01:18:31,759
Speaker 3: I mean, I sort of love cycling myself. The scenery changes,

1552
01:18:31,760 --> 01:18:33,160
Speaker 3: I mean, that's what makes it so important.

1553
01:18:35,000 --> 01:18:37,880
Speaker 15: It's fantastic and their largest part of my investor base

1554
01:18:37,960 --> 01:18:39,800
Speaker 15: are my cycling friends. And once a year we go

1555
01:18:39,880 --> 01:18:41,960
Speaker 15: into Europe or somewhere around the world and I've seen

1556
01:18:42,040 --> 01:18:44,280
Speaker 15: such amazing places and met some of the greatest cyclists

1557
01:18:44,439 --> 01:18:46,960
Speaker 15: of all time through this and they themselves I was

1558
01:18:47,160 --> 01:18:48,800
Speaker 15: as inspiring as Eline is.

1559
01:18:49,360 --> 01:18:52,040
Speaker 3: So I love it, Adrian. I've really enjoyed the last

1560
01:18:52,120 --> 01:18:55,280
Speaker 3: half hour it's flown by. I will probably think of

1561
01:18:55,360 --> 01:18:57,280
Speaker 3: you tomorrow when I have my morning coffee. I won't

1562
01:18:57,280 --> 01:18:59,360
Speaker 3: say where I get it from, but thank you so

1563
01:18:59,479 --> 01:19:02,200
Speaker 3: much for you this evening. I really do appreciated. Adrian

1564
01:19:02,280 --> 01:19:06,559
Speaker 3: Maizie is the CEO of Rand Capital Coffee, the owner

1565
01:19:06,640 --> 01:19:09,680
Speaker 3: of Starbucks in South Africa and your shape Shift.

1566
01:19:09,520 --> 01:19:14,080
Speaker 11: Tonight, The Money Show, Stephen Crutchers, is brought to you

1567
01:19:14,280 --> 01:19:19,600
Speaker 11: by ABSO Corporate and Investment Banking. Balancing economic growth with ecosystems.

1568
01:19:19,920 --> 01:19:22,479
Speaker 11: That's how they've invested in your story.

1569
01:19:24,680 --> 01:19:27,439
Speaker 3: Well, lots of drama in US markets. I'm afraid the

1570
01:19:27,520 --> 01:19:30,400
Speaker 3: dar Jones is up point two too, but the Nasdaq

1571
01:19:30,520 --> 01:19:34,200
Speaker 3: is down two percent at the moment. Still issues around

1572
01:19:34,760 --> 01:19:38,280
Speaker 3: software shares in particular, and the S and P five

1573
01:19:38,360 --> 01:19:41,240
Speaker 3: hundred down point eight eight. Will be back tomorrow. Good evening,

1574
01:19:41,280 --> 01:19:41,880
Speaker 3: it's eight o'clock