1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,320 Speaker 1: A legal battle in which I have had a great 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: interest for a long time is about to get underway. 3 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:12,480 Speaker 1: Is underway. Dignity Essay has approached at the North countng 4 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: High Court. They want to challenge the country's long standing 5 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 1: prohibition on assisted dying, and the papers argue that the 6 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: current legal framework infringes on constitutional rights including dignity, bodily, 7 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: autonomy and freedom. Willam Lundmann is a co founder of 8 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: Dignity Essay and its current chair. Joins us now on 9 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 1: the phone from Stellenbosch. Hell over them. 10 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 2: Hi, John, good to speak to you. 11 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 1: Have you filed the papers yet or are you so 12 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: about to do? 13 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:49,480 Speaker 2: About ten o'clock this morning, John. 14 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: Okay, And I'm sure that those papers. I look forward 15 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: to reading them. I'm sure that they are carefully argued 16 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: and substantive. But some up if you can the case 17 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:06,559 Speaker 1: that you are making, John. 18 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 2: Indeed, it's voluminous documents that we submitted. Our funding affidavit 19 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 2: is about one hundred and fifty pages, but it's supported 20 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 2: by about eight hundred and forty pages of testimony and evidence. 21 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 2: So it's a closely argued constitutional case where we basically 22 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 2: say that we have constitutional rights that supersede the blanket 23 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 2: prohibition of medical assistance in dying imposed by the common law. 24 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:46,040 Speaker 2: The common law considers any medical assistance in dying, provided 25 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 2: the elements of a crime are proven, any medical assistance 26 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 2: in dying constitutes the crime of murder. So we are 27 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 2: arguing that the Constitution superseded the common law on this point, 28 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 2: and that we have constitutional rights, which together you've mentioned 29 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 2: some of them together, they support a constitutional right to 30 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 2: medical assistance with dying. So we tease out the arguments, 31 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 2: the constitutional arguments. We support them with expert evidence from 32 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 2: all over the world, from in fact, four different continents 33 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 2: where we have jurisdictions where medical assistance in dying is 34 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 2: legal and we support quite important to We support our 35 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 2: argument with eleven case studies. Our people who sought assistance 36 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 2: with dying, medical assistance were dying and were denied this 37 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 2: and would have chosen it if it were legal. Well, 38 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 2: one of the eleven data, Hark, is still very much 39 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 2: with us, but the other ten died a really unnecessarily 40 00:02:58,840 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 2: cruel death. 41 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 1: William, what is and what isn't the assistant assisted dying 42 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 1: that you would want normalized and made legal. 43 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 2: John, That's a tough question. We want the principle confirmed 44 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 2: by the court. Now, the Court cannot write a law. 45 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 2: It's only Parliament that can write a law. In other words, 46 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:29,959 Speaker 2: the details of what would be acceptable practice in South 47 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 2: Africa will have to be worked out later. We want 48 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 2: simply the limits of what the Court can do is 49 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 2: to say that we're sitting with a situation of the 50 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 2: contradiction between the common law and the Constitution and this 51 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 2: is intolerable and that some artists needs to be addressed, 52 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 2: and it needs to be addressed coming down on the 53 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 2: side of the constitution. So we have this right. How 54 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 2: this right will be put into practice is up to Parliament, 55 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 2: and Parliament will obviously consult with about this. It's up 56 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 2: to Parliament to decide. For example, do we only in 57 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 2: South Africa, do we only want or does the constitution 58 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 2: support self administration which used to be called assisted suicide, 59 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 2: or do we also want to say that medical staff 60 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 2: medical professionals can do it. That is the case. Both 61 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 2: of them are legal in for example, Canada, whereas only 62 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 2: self administration no doctor administration is a lot of in 63 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 2: the United States south of the border. Now, what do 64 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 2: we do with minors, what do we do in respect 65 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 2: of mental illnesses. Those details are for Parliament. The courts 66 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 2: cannot write that. 67 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: Law and I take that point for them. But as 68 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:54,479 Speaker 1: dignity essay, you must have some ideas on the way 69 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 1: Parliament should go on these issues. 70 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 2: We will embark on a project where we will write 71 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 2: draft legislation. We, for example, to give you one a 72 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:11,359 Speaker 2: basic choice that jurisdictions will make and have made. That is, 73 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 2: do we confine medical assistance in dying to terminal cases 74 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 2: terminally ill cases? Or are there forms of suffering that's 75 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 2: intractable and unbearable where the patient is not terminally ill? 76 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 2: Now we favor the latter. We think it should be 77 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:36,839 Speaker 2: terminal cases and even mediable cases. So we also fuel 78 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:42,159 Speaker 2: we have not settled this. But you know, when it 79 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:46,600 Speaker 2: comes to minors, we have to acknowledge that there's a 80 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:50,119 Speaker 2: huge difference between somebody who's six years old and somebody 81 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 2: who's sixteen years old versus an adult. Why cannot a 82 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 2: sixteen year old, for example, who has been in and 83 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 2: out of cancer wards for twelve years not have a 84 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 2: view on euse or her own life that we should 85 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 2: take seriously. But we haven't settled those issues. We set 86 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 2: me in our papers mate, you know, did not want 87 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 2: to confine ourselves our application to only terminal illness. 88 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 1: Okay, So if if I am, if I am suffering 89 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: from the most acute, imaginable depression, my life has absolutely 90 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:35,200 Speaker 1: no meaning. I have bleakness from the moment I wake 91 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:38,279 Speaker 1: up to the rare moments when I go to sleep, 92 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,840 Speaker 1: and I want to end my life, and I am 93 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:48,040 Speaker 1: not confident of my ability to end my life by myself. 94 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:52,119 Speaker 1: You think I should be allowed to apply for help, 95 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: that I should be able to say, will you will 96 00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: you sit with me, you who have expertise in medical matters, 97 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: while I administer something that is going to kill me 98 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 1: too myself, or I should have the right to ask 99 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: for somebody to administer, as a medical expert something to 100 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: me that will end my life. 101 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 2: John. When it comes to writing adore and regulations, there 102 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 2: will have to be eligibility criteria who is eligible to 103 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 2: enter into a program of medical assistance says to dying, 104 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:30,559 Speaker 2: and then there will have to be safeguards in place. 105 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 2: It sounds like a cop art, but we cannot you know, 106 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 2: we cannot decide that. It will be decided by parliament. 107 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 2: But if you ask me personally, it's clearly the case 108 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 2: that one can have a mental illness where you're still 109 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 2: absolutely irrational and coherent about making a choice to end 110 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 2: your life because your suffering is unbearable. If you ask 111 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:59,920 Speaker 2: me personally, I would support that if these matters are 112 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 2: beyond doubt, if the facts are beyond doubt, because I 113 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 2: do not. I think it's wrong to believe that mental 114 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 2: illness excludes rationality. But this is the toughest, you know, 115 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 2: the toughest kind of medical assistant dying case. Are we 116 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 2: discriminating against people who have mental illnesses and who's suffering 117 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 2: for them is as bad as extreme physical suffering and 118 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 2: there's no end in sight. I think the issue of 119 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 2: equality rights in the Constitution will set you come to 120 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 2: bear on this that we are we discriminating against people 121 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 2: who have mental illnesses. Ultimately, all illnesses relate to biology, 122 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 2: So why should we discriminate against people whose illness manifest 123 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 2: as mental illness or their physical illness having a foundation 124 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 2: in the same brain. 125 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:58,200 Speaker 1: I'm asked by a listener to ask you whether somebody 126 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: who's epileptic can suffer badly as a result of increasingly 127 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 1: severe and frequent epileptic fits. So I mean these are 128 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: all things that you will say to me as a 129 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: blanket answer, that's for Parliament to decide. That's not something 130 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: we consider in our papers. But the devil is in 131 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: this kind of detail, Villain. I mean, what's happening in 132 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: the United Kingdom at the moment with this to and 133 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:22,439 Speaker 1: fro between the House of Lords and the House of Commons, 134 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: where one basically supports it, but is constantly having amendments 135 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 1: thrown at it in order to get the debate to 136 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 1: a point where Parliament pro rogues and so the process 137 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: has to start again. These are the kinds of things 138 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: that we might well face in South Africa as well. 139 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: So I'm interested in your views. 140 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:44,839 Speaker 2: I'm glad that you've raised that. John. I do not 141 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 2: think we'll go down the road at the United Kingdom. 142 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 2: We are fortunate that we have a constitutional democracy, which 143 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 2: they don't have Parliament besides, and ultimately it will be 144 00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 2: the voting Parliament and the House of Lords, you know, 145 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 2: in the House of Common Commons and the House of 146 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 2: Lords that will decide. But we it's different for us 147 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 2: if we are faced with the question like this, the 148 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 2: question is what does the constitution say? How does the 149 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:18,680 Speaker 2: constitution guide us? And no matter what the majority public 150 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 2: view is, no matter what the view of the majority 151 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 2: in Parliament is, the Constitution will be interpreted by the 152 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 2: Constitutional Court and it will give broad guidelines and guidelines, 153 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 2: and we hope it would say that a right to 154 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 2: medical assistance in dying exists and that you Parliament, you know, 155 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 2: are directed to write appropriate legislation. So I do not see. 156 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 2: I think it's entirely different from the United Kingdom. We 157 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,959 Speaker 2: are are more like Canada, where the Supreme Court ruled 158 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:53,960 Speaker 2: gave it gave its direction to legislation to be to 159 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,319 Speaker 2: be written. So we are very very fortunate we won't 160 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 2: go into that quicksand that's currently the case in the 161 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 2: United Kingdom. 162 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: It comes to you know you would yeah, okay, please continue. 163 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 2: You were you were asking about an epileptic uh, you know, seizures. 164 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 2: Once again, the the the criteria, the elibility eligibility criteria 165 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 2: will have to be to be written, and these choices 166 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 2: will have to be made. But I can assure you 167 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 2: that I am convinced that there are conditions where people 168 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 2: suffer subjectively that others cannot remotely understand and may think, 169 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 2: you know, you have a functioning body, but they're so 170 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 2: there are noises in your head, you know, you know 171 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 2: that you cannot cope with. So these are marginal cases 172 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 2: that one will have to look at. You don't have 173 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 2: to be terminally ill to suffer in a way that 174 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:55,559 Speaker 2: is unbearable. Uh. And you should not have to commit suicide, 175 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 2: as it were, by jumping off a bridge. I think 176 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:02,559 Speaker 2: that we should have a We should heed the constitution 177 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:05,239 Speaker 2: and taylor our medical interventions. 178 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 1: Accordingly, I'm talking to Villain Bluntmann, chairperson and co founder 179 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 1: of Dignity, say their court papers filed earlier today in 180 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 1: the North counteng High Court, and they want the court 181 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 1: to declare, which would then have to be confirmed or 182 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 1: otherwise by the Constitutional Court, that our prohibition on sister 183 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: dying is unconstitutional. Villain, as you will know from conversations 184 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 1: you and I have had before that I'm very much 185 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 1: in favor of this, But I am also alert to 186 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 1: some of the caution that is expressed by people who 187 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:44,199 Speaker 1: are not as holy on boarders as I am and 188 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 1: Dignity sa is it kind of normalizes the ending of 189 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 1: one's life that it doesn't keep open the option of 190 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:56,080 Speaker 1: palliative care in the way that palliative care can assist 191 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 1: to make an unbearable suffering more tolerable and lead to 192 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: a good death without a sister dying. That the even 193 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: though you talk about strict control and mental competence and 194 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: so on, that there are ways of bypassing that that 195 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 1: no system manages to keep that control, and no system 196 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: can understand the pressures that are brought to bear upon 197 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: those who are clearly physiologically suffering but might not want this, 198 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 1: but the family's going come on, you know, in subtle ways, 199 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: of course, And so the notion of absolute voluntary consent 200 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:42,199 Speaker 1: to the ending of one's life with assistance is not 201 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: as clear cut as you might make it to be. 202 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 2: John, First of all, I want to thank you for 203 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 2: your You've been supporting us in principle, and I'm fully 204 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 2: aware of that, and I appreciate that when it comes 205 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 2: to carritive carectin US take that point. I think it's 206 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 2: very very important to consider pariative care and medical assistant 207 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:14,679 Speaker 2: dying as on a continuum, as being in harmony, medical 208 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:18,560 Speaker 2: assistance in dying as the almost a paiative care endpoint 209 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 2: for some minority of patients for whom paliative care can 210 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 2: no longer be of any benefit. But of course the 211 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 2: palative care has to be institutionalized, and that's why it's 212 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 2: very interesting that countries like France, where President Macron has 213 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 2: committed himself to passing legislation, that they find it necessary 214 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 2: to pass parallel pliative care legislation with parallel with medical 215 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 2: assists in dying legislation. So yes, our parentive care is variable, 216 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 2: but we will we think what should be written into 217 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 2: the legislation is that part of one of the conditions 218 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 2: would be adequate parative care. That's why we propose, would 219 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 2: propose to Parliament that this would only be institutionalized in 220 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 2: certain institutions where everything is in place, and that from 221 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 2: there it can be expanded. The question of the possible 222 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 2: abuse of their vulnerable, the exploitation of the vulnerable, this 223 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 2: is a factual matter. In our very extensive submissions, we 224 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 2: have looked into this from a point of view of 225 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 2: several jurisdictions across the world. We've consulted the very top 226 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:42,920 Speaker 2: specialists in the field and we've asked for how would 227 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 2: they address thiss what is happening in their jurisdictions. We 228 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 2: have put all this material out there to be studied. 229 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 2: We cannot find any systematic abuse of medical assistance in dying. 230 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:00,080 Speaker 2: And this is something that if somebody alleges it, you 231 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 2: must come with the proof. We cannot find the proof. 232 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 2: I will admit immediately that there may be individual cases. 233 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 2: How does one respond to that, individual cases that have 234 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 2: been unsatisfactorily handled? You respond to that by improving your controls, 235 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:22,359 Speaker 2: by improving your management. You do not abolish the practice. 236 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 2: We do not do it with any other practice in 237 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 2: the world. If drunken drivers kill people on the road, 238 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 2: we do not abolish the practice of driving motor cars 239 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 2: on the road. We try and get those drunken drivers 240 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 2: to tow the line and to drive responsibly. Also, there's 241 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 2: a very interesting argument in Canada that if you say 242 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 2: that there can be one abuse, it is one to many. 243 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 2: Therefore nobody can have it. That is tantamont to holding 244 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 2: people to ransom for the possibility of an abuse or 245 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 2: a number of abuses. We do not think that that 246 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 2: is an argument that that succeeds. 247 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,399 Speaker 1: One wonders because I mean, we have I think, a 248 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: morally conservative parliament, and we have a morally assertive constitution, 249 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: and I wonder I suspect there's a good chance that 250 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:29,639 Speaker 1: the Constitutional Court might agree with dignity s A. But 251 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:37,920 Speaker 1: I think the parliamentary process thereafter is going to be interesting, yes, John, 252 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,440 Speaker 1: because I think we might well face an end prospect 253 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:46,400 Speaker 1: where the legislation which is written doesn't comply with the 254 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 1: spirit of the Constitutional Court. Direction. 255 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:56,159 Speaker 2: That is possible, and I you know, I guess one 256 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 2: could again take that down a constitutional road and have 257 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 2: that robed. But yes, John, that is possible. That is 258 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 2: part of our condition in South Africa. There's nothing we 259 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:09,640 Speaker 2: can do about that, but we will try our level 260 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 2: best to put forward with you know, put forward draft 261 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 2: legislation that that learns from you know, from other from 262 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 2: other jurisdictions. You know, we have legislation that I think 263 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 2: the majority of the population would not agree with, you know, 264 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:33,280 Speaker 2: termination of pres pregnancy, same sex unions, abolition of capital punishment. 265 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,640 Speaker 2: Arguably all of these are not supported by the majority 266 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 2: of the population. But we have them, and you know, 267 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:44,120 Speaker 2: we we've accepted them, and I hope the same would 268 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 2: happen for medical assistance in dying. 269 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: One last question, and I'm going to need a quick 270 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 1: answer if you can villain the suggestion you must be 271 00:18:54,960 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 1: mentally competent and suffering from iramedial conditions? What happens if 272 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:06,439 Speaker 1: you express a wish before you get diagnosed with or 273 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 1: have to have to live with an irredeemable a terminal condition. 274 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: Does a wish expressed before you reach the boundary of 275 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,919 Speaker 1: something for which the legislation would qualify you hold in 276 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:23,440 Speaker 1: your view? 277 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 2: You see what would happen there that at the point 278 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 2: that you really needed you are, though no longer competent. 279 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 2: We have in our National Health Act Section seven, we 280 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:43,439 Speaker 2: have the instrument of a mandate where somebody else steps 281 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 2: into your shoes and take decisions on your behalf. I 282 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 2: would hope that that would be made use of, and 283 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 2: not only you know you can appoint You can appoint 284 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:56,160 Speaker 2: somebody to be your mandate tea as it were. But 285 00:19:56,440 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 2: if you don't, then there's a natural succession indicated in 286 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 2: the law, so that person will step into your shoes 287 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 2: and will make these decisions on your behalf. 288 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:11,920 Speaker 1: Thank you very much. A lot still to tease out. 289 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:13,439 Speaker 1: I want to have a look at the court papers 290 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,160 Speaker 1: and perhaps then design other interviews and speak to people 291 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: who might well oppose what Dignity SA is doing, which 292 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,919 Speaker 1: is I have said I support and have supported for 293 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 1: a long time, thanks very much to Professor Villiam Lundmann, 294 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 1: chairperson and co founder of Dignity SA.