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Speaker 1: The Supreme Court of Appeal very interesting ruling against ESCOM

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Speaker 1: a legal battle with AfriForum, and AfriForum had used the

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Speaker 1: Promotion of Access to Information Act to ask for access

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Speaker 1: to contracts which relate to coal and diesel, transport and supply,

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Speaker 1: and ESCAM said we're not going to give that to

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Speaker 1: you because the documents are commercially sensitive and their release

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Speaker 1: could harm negotiations with suppliers. And the Supreme Court of

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Speaker 1: Appeal said, no, that's not good enough. That is not

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Speaker 1: sufficient evidence that disclosure will cause real harm. So, you know,

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Speaker 1: I suppose ESCOM either releases the documents or it comes

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Speaker 1: up with better arguments as to why those documents should

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Speaker 1: not be released. And what I've read from legal people

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Speaker 1: in the wake of this judgment is that it's going

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Speaker 1: to be very difficult for ESCOM and indeed any other

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Speaker 1: SOE because if this applies to ESCOM, it applies to Denel,

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Speaker 1: that applies to Transport transit, it applies to any state

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Speaker 1: owned enterprise. I'm pretty certain that this will head for

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Speaker 1: the Constitutional Court, which means that every forum probably won't

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Speaker 1: have access anytime soon to those contracts. More name, most

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Speaker 1: of every forum joins us now afternoon more name good John,

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Speaker 1: and that this is I think, you know, for every

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Speaker 1: forum you brought the case, but for anybody who wants

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Speaker 1: information out of so s this is a very important judgment.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I think that this is a large victory for

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Speaker 2: not only transparency with regards to the state in South Africa,

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Speaker 2: but more over, the court made it clear and that

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Speaker 2: in this instance that form is a public utility company

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Speaker 2: and they are they are executing their obligations with public funds,

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Speaker 2: and for that reason it's really important that the public

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Speaker 2: cannot only have to say, but can see what the

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Speaker 2: specific state institution is spending their money on. And for

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Speaker 2: that reason, uh es COM cannot hide or try to

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Speaker 2: keep this information secret. So that I do think this

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Speaker 2: is a large cut victory for transparency with all state institutions.

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Speaker 2: But also we've also seen the past in the previous

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Speaker 2: judgment in this case, meaning in the High Court, the

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Speaker 2: court also said that ESCOMB cannot hide behind poppy and

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Speaker 2: so in that in this instances where specific information was

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Speaker 2: asked with with with the payment of public funds. So

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Speaker 2: I think there is a large cut victory. This is

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Speaker 2: very important and sadly I do agree with you that

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Speaker 2: instead for just giving us the specific documents, I think

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Speaker 2: there is a large chance that if ESCOM will do

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Speaker 2: everything in its power not to give us this document,

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Speaker 2: and this kind of shows or already that there is

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Speaker 2: something to buy given the call contracts.

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Speaker 1: I look, we can't say this for certain, but I

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Speaker 1: think given the history of corruption within state owned enterprises,

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Speaker 1: we have reason to believe that some of the contracts

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Speaker 1: might not pass close scrutiny.

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Speaker 2: I think if you look at iscom's financial statements, and

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Speaker 2: I would say go back to more than a decade,

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Speaker 2: each of their financial statements, notes that are made is

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Speaker 2: that there is large scale problems within the supply chain

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Speaker 2: management processes and supply chain management process or documents within ESCOM,

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Speaker 2: And for that reason, I do think that some of

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Speaker 2: that will go through. I think it's important to note

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Speaker 2: that even when incomes audited, it has a general rule

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Speaker 2: that auditor is will only look at specific contracts that

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Speaker 2: are larger than two and a half million RAN. So

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Speaker 2: when they are saying that there are problems with processes

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Speaker 2: within SCORN, it's problem with procurement contracts over to and

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Speaker 2: a half million. Now the question should be asked, do

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Speaker 2: you think thing that supply chain management contracts and into

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Speaker 2: and a half million will be better. I seriously doubt that.

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Speaker 1: This case specifically, excuse me, this contract, this case resolve

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Speaker 1: revolves specifically around s COM. Was that deliberate to target

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Speaker 1: one so oe, the one that you thought was most

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Speaker 1: likely to have unscrupulous contracts on its books? And why

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Speaker 1: s COM would you go after Transnet in a similar fashion?

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Speaker 1: And other sees. If indeed the Constitutional Court confirms the

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Speaker 1: Sea ruling.

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Speaker 2: Think we will limit ourselves. I think the one thing

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Speaker 2: that makes it is from interesting and very important to

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Speaker 2: us is because of the last decades price increases and

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Speaker 2: price determinations the electricity with the Reticulation Act, sorry, the

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Speaker 2: let's just see regulation Act makes it clear that only

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Speaker 2: prudently incode costs can be transferred over to the consumer. Now,

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Speaker 2: what this means is not prudently incurde costs should be

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Speaker 2: left outside of the scope and should not have an

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Speaker 2: impact on consumers tariffs. And if we go through these documents,

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Speaker 2: I think it might be become clear that there were

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Speaker 2: certain costs that should have been excluded to consumers and

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Speaker 2: that and then we can obviously use our legal instruments

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Speaker 2: to have an impact on the tariffs on that stage.

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Speaker 2: But the important part, the soul for reason why if

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Speaker 2: we are doing this, is to get those contracts. And

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Speaker 2: I can tell you that different universities, different engineering companies

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Speaker 2: and different ordered companies has already requested after for them

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Speaker 2: to be part of a somewhat team to go through

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Speaker 2: these contracts and to make reports on them. So I

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Speaker 2: do think this is a large girl victory and it's

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Speaker 2: going to be very important for us. But when we

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Speaker 2: receive these documents to see what we are able to

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Speaker 2: do with it, more than

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Speaker 1: I Mustard of after Fordham thank you very much for

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Speaker 1: talking to us this afternoon.