1
00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,000
Speaker 1: So a story that really caught my eye. Good piece

2
00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:08,200
Speaker 1: in The Citizen by their journalists, PhaSeal Patel capturing some

3
00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:11,040
Speaker 1: data that has been shared by the Department of Home Affairs,

4
00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:14,840
Speaker 1: noting that nearly one hundred and ten thousand illegal immigrants

5
00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,440
Speaker 1: have been deported from South Africa to their home countries

6
00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:22,720
Speaker 1: over the past to financial years. There's been an exponential

7
00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:26,480
Speaker 1: increase in this process, but it does raise questions, I

8
00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:30,440
Speaker 1: think about the effectiveness of the step here to engage

9
00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:34,120
Speaker 1: with them. Is Minister of Home Affairs, doctor Leon Schreiber

10
00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,080
Speaker 1: joining us on seven h two drive. Minister, welcome and

11
00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:42,520
Speaker 1: thanks very much for giving us your time. The cost, obviously,

12
00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:46,599
Speaker 1: I would assume of all of this is enormous. Do

13
00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:50,199
Speaker 1: you have any sense though, as to whether, and perhaps

14
00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:55,120
Speaker 1: even what proportion of these people simply slowly but inexorably

15
00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:58,240
Speaker 1: make their way back to South Africa and you actually

16
00:00:58,240 --> 00:00:59,640
Speaker 1: have to do it all over again.

17
00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:04,080
Speaker 2: Good evening, John, and good evening to the listeners. Well,

18
00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,279
Speaker 2: I think to answer the question, we just have to

19
00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:11,120
Speaker 2: take a step back and say, firstly, we have allowed

20
00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,360
Speaker 2: a problem to fester for far too long, that we

21
00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:18,480
Speaker 2: have far too many people in South Africa illegally and undocumented,

22
00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:21,880
Speaker 2: and that is something that we have to deal with

23
00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,880
Speaker 2: in all its different facets. So I think deportations is

24
00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:31,479
Speaker 2: one important facet. As you mentioned, we've really ratched it up.

25
00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,320
Speaker 2: The effectiveness of the deportation drive one hundred and ten

26
00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,839
Speaker 2: thousand people in about two years. That's forty six percent

27
00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,640
Speaker 2: more than the previous sort of annual performance and actually

28
00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:46,560
Speaker 2: important to understand, this puts US ahead of countries like

29
00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,520
Speaker 2: France and Germany combined. So South Africa is one of

30
00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:53,120
Speaker 2: now with more focus on this, one of the biggest

31
00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:57,640
Speaker 2: implementers of deportations in the world. So obviously it is

32
00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:01,640
Speaker 2: a symptom of a broader problem. When it comes to costs,

33
00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:05,000
Speaker 2: I don't have the exact figure, but the last time

34
00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:07,000
Speaker 2: I checked, I think it was just under two thousand

35
00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:11,040
Speaker 2: rand on average per deportation. So it's not cheap, it's

36
00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:14,240
Speaker 2: not free. We also have to ask the question what

37
00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:16,560
Speaker 2: would be the cost of not taking action where we

38
00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:19,120
Speaker 2: are able to do so, because you know, we see

39
00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,800
Speaker 2: the cost of people accessing services, of people you know,

40
00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:25,720
Speaker 2: competing in the labor market, et cetera, and that too,

41
00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:27,760
Speaker 2: I think if you were to quantify it definitely is

42
00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:29,359
Speaker 2: going to end up being more than two thousand rounds

43
00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:29,720
Speaker 2: per person.

44
00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:34,120
Speaker 1: So Melisa, I mean the framing is it that they

45
00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:37,880
Speaker 1: have been deported to their home countries. What does that

46
00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:43,120
Speaker 1: actually involve? I mean, obviously with Lisuto Zimbabwe countries contiguous

47
00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:46,560
Speaker 1: with our own where we share a common land border,

48
00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:51,639
Speaker 1: that's easy to picture when you start talking Malawi's, Zambia,

49
00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:57,760
Speaker 1: Democratic Republic of Congo, Kenya. The logistics and presumably the

50
00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:02,520
Speaker 1: costs must increase substantially when we deport people. Do we

51
00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:06,160
Speaker 1: literally take them to where they live? Yes.

52
00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:08,359
Speaker 2: I think you're touching on an important point that we've

53
00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:10,840
Speaker 2: been trying to focus on more, which is to properly

54
00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,560
Speaker 2: communicate some of this work that's going on. And I

55
00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,400
Speaker 2: think what you're saying actually tells me that we should

56
00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:20,560
Speaker 2: do some communication on how the process works. From Lindela

57
00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:23,840
Speaker 2: for example. So in many cases, someone who is arrested

58
00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,000
Speaker 2: for being in South Assaki illegally will first go to Lindela.

59
00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:29,960
Speaker 2: It's a big repatriation center. They would get confirmed through

60
00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:32,639
Speaker 2: the magistrates' court. They might spend the night or two

61
00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,400
Speaker 2: at Lindela, and then we actually have buses that the

62
00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:38,960
Speaker 2: Department of Home Affairs purchased last year so that we

63
00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:41,040
Speaker 2: have our own infrastructure, we don't have to rent it.

64
00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:44,360
Speaker 2: And these buses run I want to say, around the

65
00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,600
Speaker 2: clock and they go as far as Malawi. So it's

66
00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,960
Speaker 2: exactly to bring down costs that we have brought in

67
00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:54,640
Speaker 2: some of these tools, and these are literally deportation buses,

68
00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:58,480
Speaker 2: giant vehicles filled with people who then get transported back

69
00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:00,800
Speaker 2: to the countries they come from. You're right, we do

70
00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,480
Speaker 2: have some cases where people would even have to be

71
00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:07,640
Speaker 2: flown out, but that is obviously more expensive, but they

72
00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:11,080
Speaker 2: are comparatively fewer to the cases where we actually use

73
00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:13,960
Speaker 2: the buses. Now, again, if you just think about the

74
00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:18,239
Speaker 2: scale of this operation, I mean, we as Home Affairs

75
00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:20,960
Speaker 2: would always insist that we need more resources than we

76
00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:23,760
Speaker 2: could do more. But I think if you look at

77
00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:26,039
Speaker 2: the scale of what we're doing here, the key point

78
00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:29,599
Speaker 2: is that South Africa is slowly but surely, and on

79
00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:33,440
Speaker 2: a very focused way, dealing with this problem more and

80
00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:35,320
Speaker 2: more than we have in recent years, and in a

81
00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:37,560
Speaker 2: more systematic way is the key point I think.

82
00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:43,800
Speaker 1: So, I mean, your ministry has not shrunk from acknowledging

83
00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:46,280
Speaker 1: corruption within your ranks. So I'm going to give you

84
00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,839
Speaker 1: a summarized version of a message from one of our listeners, Dion.

85
00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,000
Speaker 1: He says, a man employed for fifteen years to be

86
00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,480
Speaker 1: a caretaker at our church had an issue with this passport, arrested,

87
00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:01,159
Speaker 1: taken to court, and scheduled to be deported to Malawi.

88
00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:05,880
Speaker 1: Then unfolds a story where he asks his employers to

89
00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:09,360
Speaker 1: send him two thousand rand home affairs drop him off. Obviously,

90
00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,400
Speaker 1: there's a corrupt transaction taking place where they pocket the

91
00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:18,080
Speaker 1: two thousand. This, though, is I think the punchline that

92
00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,720
Speaker 1: I wanted your view on. He says. They then apparently

93
00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:23,279
Speaker 1: pick up other travelers and charge them and use them

94
00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,640
Speaker 1: as body receipts to show that they actually took a

95
00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,520
Speaker 1: full bus load away. I mean, have you, first of all,

96
00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,000
Speaker 1: does this come as any kind of news to you?

97
00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:36,520
Speaker 1: But secondly, do you monitor, given that we know there

98
00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:40,360
Speaker 1: is corruption in your department and every other, that in fact,

99
00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:45,160
Speaker 1: beyond a certain point, a full bus may leave and

100
00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,240
Speaker 1: then this kind of thing may well be going on.

101
00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,640
Speaker 1: I'm not suggesting that reduces one hundred and ten thousand

102
00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:53,960
Speaker 1: to zero or anything like it, but are you perhaps

103
00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,560
Speaker 1: concerned there's padding of the numbers and fleecing of people

104
00:05:57,600 --> 00:05:58,839
Speaker 1: in the process.

105
00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,720
Speaker 2: Well, let me start by saying, I mean, we released

106
00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:06,240
Speaker 2: the interim reports from the Special Investigating Unit earlier this year,

107
00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:10,600
Speaker 2: which looked into corruption in the immigration space broadly speaking.

108
00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:13,560
Speaker 2: So I think the first thing that we should say

109
00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,920
Speaker 2: is exposure of these kinds of things is at a

110
00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:19,680
Speaker 2: level we haven't seen before. We've dismissed fifty officials as

111
00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,720
Speaker 2: a result of that work. Many more disciplinaries going on,

112
00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,120
Speaker 2: but clearly in the example you described, there's more work

113
00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,839
Speaker 2: to do. I want to also just say if we

114
00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:31,760
Speaker 2: look at this past year, I mean, we had a

115
00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:36,120
Speaker 2: very tough conversation internally about the audited outcomes that Home

116
00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:39,160
Speaker 2: Affairs has been producing over the years, and we are

117
00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:41,920
Speaker 2: working in a very focused way to improve audit outcomes.

118
00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:43,920
Speaker 2: And one of the key things that we are now

119
00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:49,000
Speaker 2: auditing more effectively is the deportation process, because exactly as

120
00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,720
Speaker 2: you say, you know, you have to be able to

121
00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:55,080
Speaker 2: prove that you arrested someone, that the right person got

122
00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:57,400
Speaker 2: on the bus, and that they're actually left on the

123
00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,279
Speaker 2: other side of this journey. So we are working to

124
00:07:00,839 --> 00:07:04,240
Speaker 2: bolster that system. It will take time, as you say,

125
00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:07,560
Speaker 2: it's these on new practices, but I think in general,

126
00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:11,840
Speaker 2: being clear out about it, being absolutely unafraid to expose

127
00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:15,840
Speaker 2: where these things happen, and then systematically intervening whether it's

128
00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:20,080
Speaker 2: disciplinary matters or auditing standards, those kind of things. We

129
00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:22,800
Speaker 2: are focusing on all of those, so it is a journey.

130
00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:25,120
Speaker 2: I would be very interested if you are able to

131
00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:27,240
Speaker 2: share that particular case with me so that we can

132
00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,559
Speaker 2: follow up. But the general point, and I mean I

133
00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:32,840
Speaker 2: often am out to myself. Even this morning, we were

134
00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,920
Speaker 2: out in Santon doing one of these operations, so I

135
00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:38,040
Speaker 2: do try to see for myself and I can subfirm

136
00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:39,880
Speaker 2: there is a lot of good work happening as well,

137
00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:41,640
Speaker 2: which is where most of these numbers come from.

138
00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:45,920
Speaker 1: Thank you very much. Leon Shreiber, Minister of Home Affairs,

139
00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,280
Speaker 1: twenty nine minutes past five